Speaker 1: Pushing God, Lily, your kinfold, what's your baby daddy's coming?
Speaker 2: Go your baby daddies too shame and or criminal to stay.
Speaker 3: I'm Khalil Jbron Muhammad.
Speaker 4: I'm Ben Austin. We are two best friends, one black,
Speaker 4: one white.
Speaker 3: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is
Speaker 3: some of my best friends are wait.
Speaker 4: Khalil, this is our last episode of the season, and
Speaker 4: I'm starting to figure something out. Some of my best
Speaker 4: friends are like, we're best friends, but it's also like
Speaker 4: that racist thing that people say, or that prejudice thing.
Speaker 4: You know, some of my best friends are. It's a
Speaker 4: double meaning.
Speaker 3: You've just figured this out.
Speaker 4: What a great title. In this show, we wrestle with
Speaker 4: the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and
Speaker 4: unequal country.
Speaker 3: And yep, you said it. This is our last episode
Speaker 3: of the season. Man, what a journey it's been this year.
Speaker 3: But what a fitting way to come back to where
Speaker 3: it all started with Lil Lily and the man behind
Speaker 3: that magical song that just always makes me really feel
Speaker 3: good about this show.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you're hearing that right now. And we are
Speaker 4: so excited to have Avery R. Young with us. He's
Speaker 4: the Poet Laureate of Chicago, the sound of this show,
Speaker 4: and just an amazingly talented soul. We're going to talk
Speaker 4: to him about his work as an interdisciplinary artist and educator,
Speaker 4: and of course how it all comes back to Chicago. Avery,
Speaker 4: what's up man? It is so good to have you
Speaker 4: on the show. Wow.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, this is a full circle moment
Speaker 3: for some of my best friends.
Speaker 5: Are yes, you all for having me.
Speaker 4: And hey, congratulations, I'm being named the first Poet Laureate
Speaker 4: of Chicago.
Speaker 2: That's so crazy. Every time people say that, I'm like,
Speaker 2: thank you so much, thank you so much. It's honored
Speaker 2: to be here. And yeah, because y'all don't don't don't don't.
Speaker 4: That's right, that's right. So you know what I was
Speaker 4: going to say is I knew you back when before,
Speaker 4: before you were all this hot stuff Poet laureate. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and your song Lil Lily, I was, I was. I
Speaker 4: was the one who introduced Khalil to it, and we
Speaker 4: wanted a Chicago artist, that's right. And and that song,
Speaker 4: you know, it's funky way like, it's so emotional and
Speaker 4: honest in a lot of ways and alive and every
Speaker 4: time I hear it, I moved. I'm like, I'm physically moved,
Speaker 4: and so yeah, that that's that's why I sort of like,
Speaker 4: you know, we started considering it and I presented to
Speaker 4: Khalil and we were like, yeah, this is it, this
Speaker 4: is it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, man, yeah, I appreciate it. Well listen you uh
Speaker 3: you passed the first litmus test on on this side
Speaker 3: of the Some of my best friends are with Little
Speaker 3: Lily because I played it for my wife Stephanie and
Speaker 3: she was like, oh man, that is hot. So that
Speaker 3: that that made it. That made it a done deal,
Speaker 3: and we are just so grateful in so many ways. Avery.
Speaker 3: Our show has always had you as a sonic partner.
Speaker 3: Is a better way to part it?
Speaker 5: Love it?
Speaker 2: I mean I think that I think that was the
Speaker 2: fit of the song in the show, because I mean
Speaker 2: the lyric content that song is heavy.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 3: That's so that's that's something that I want to know
Speaker 3: a little bit more about. I mean, you know, what
Speaker 3: is the story behind the song?
Speaker 2: Oh goodness, the story behind the song is so the
Speaker 2: song is on a record called Tubman, and Tubman is
Speaker 2: like the sonic poems that I couldn't put in a
Speaker 2: book right, and the book Neckbone right, so I had
Speaker 2: Neckbone is full of visual and traditional verse. And then
Speaker 2: there's these Then there was these sounds that I were
Speaker 2: hearing or the songs whatever I was hearing that I
Speaker 2: wouldn't you can't put in the book.
Speaker 5: So I was like, well, let me put it in that.
Speaker 5: Let me put it in the record. And the lily
Speaker 5: is in response to a poem in the book about
Speaker 5: my mother.
Speaker 2: And so toy Derrecott, who's a wonderful, wonderful writer and
Speaker 2: mentor from from the d.
Speaker 5: From the Choice one time her her.
Speaker 2: Assignment to me was to write something in my Darkest Ink,
Speaker 2: and little Lily is one of those pieces that I
Speaker 2: think is from my darkest Ink.
Speaker 4: So we asked like, yeah, what's the dynamic between you
Speaker 4: and your mom? What's the story you want to tell
Speaker 4: about her.
Speaker 5: I'm my mama's favorite, I'm a first child, I'm her
Speaker 5: only boy. We are definitely definitely definitely too blue and
Speaker 5: tight like blue, and we were all of us were
Speaker 5: raised by.
Speaker 2: Her, her aunt, which is like my big mama, which
Speaker 2: is you know, it's it's a really complicated situations.
Speaker 3: That word, that's that word, because that's the best hooks
Speaker 3: of the song that is confident.
Speaker 2: It's really it's really complicated. It's lads, just as a
Speaker 2: testament to a lot of how we how we love
Speaker 2: and how we support, support and take care of each other.
Speaker 2: So my mother is special needs, and the phone really
Speaker 2: is really kind of really tackling this, this me being
Speaker 2: a product of sexual abuse, you know, and like they
Speaker 2: have been mothers who was like they can't deal with
Speaker 2: the child, so they you know, and then then there's
Speaker 2: been cases where they over loved, if that's that's a
Speaker 2: word to compensate. So there's this trauma that the baby,
Speaker 2: the baby was in and for my sisters and I,
Speaker 2: we just just really felt like normal because we didn't
Speaker 2: feel unloved in any in any shape, form and fashion.
Speaker 2: This was just what our family was shaped into and
Speaker 2: the normality of it is just it was just very normal.
Speaker 2: This is what it is, a mental disability or cognitive issue.
Speaker 2: Don't make her less your mother. That's biology, you know,
Speaker 2: that's biology.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 5: This woman who is her?
Speaker 2: Who is her aunt stepped in to raise her after
Speaker 2: my uncle brought my mother to her house as my
Speaker 2: grandmother was dealing with substance abuse and the guilt of
Speaker 2: you know, the story of it was the substance abuse
Speaker 2: that did this to her child, right, yes, yes, and
Speaker 2: that's a thing that she can't handle, right. So she
Speaker 2: gives the child to her to her son, and he's like,
Speaker 2: but I'm nineteen and I had this other life, the
Speaker 2: rest of his life that I have to live. I
Speaker 2: can't deal with a special needs child. So he didn't
Speaker 2: give the baby to his mother's sister or his aunt.
Speaker 2: And she takes the baby in, she raises the baby
Speaker 2: is her own, and then that baby's all of a
Speaker 2: sudden start popping up with children, you know, and like
Speaker 2: what do we do.
Speaker 5: We love them and we raise them as they our own,
Speaker 5: and we keep them as you know, a family. And
Speaker 5: that's that's the that's the that's the story.
Speaker 3: And there is a yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing all
Speaker 3: of that. Avery. So let's let's just break this down
Speaker 3: a little bit with the song lyrics. So little Lily
Speaker 3: is your mom, and she has special needs. She was
Speaker 3: raised by her aunt because her mother suffered from drug addiction.
Speaker 3: And while your aunt was away at work, your mom
Speaker 3: was sexually abused. And so you sing it's complicated, because
Speaker 3: this is a complicated story, and really this is a
Speaker 3: song as a tribute, uh to your mother who you
Speaker 3: love dealing.
Speaker 5: That's you know, that's the story in the sense. And
Speaker 5: then what you do with a song like Little Lily is.
Speaker 4: You you can you sing? Can you sing a little
Speaker 4: love bit? Avery?
Speaker 5: Because I sing a little bit? It goes hey lily
Speaker 5: song can folk don't need to be slow.
Speaker 8: Ba bunk Mamma married on off to work, now her
Speaker 8: house and stays, and.
Speaker 1: Lily your kinfold, what's your baby daddy's coming?
Speaker 8: Go your baby daddies to shame and or criminal to stay?
Speaker 8: Boom boom hell lily boom.
Speaker 2: Don't think guy's been and efficient shield boom boom.
Speaker 5: So may it is song.
Speaker 2: Service you was swore boom above a dog, don't bunk
Speaker 2: hell Lily, doom doom.
Speaker 5: You know nobody can do you like jeeves boom boom,
Speaker 5: bump bump. You know no, I'm gonna do you like
Speaker 5: the love. That's so funny that the lyric, because that's
Speaker 5: the song she used to sing in shirt.
Speaker 2: She was singing the song like nodding, like Jesus, like Lord,
Speaker 2: she's seen it.
Speaker 5: A long time.
Speaker 3: So that's how that okay, And little Lily is.
Speaker 2: Your mother, Lily is my mother? Yes, mother Mary going
Speaker 2: off to work. That's the great eyes.
Speaker 3: Yes, all right, all right, Oh my god, my hair
Speaker 3: was standing on in Oh I was.
Speaker 4: I was so moved.
Speaker 3: That's just so beautiful. And and your ability to not
Speaker 3: only sing so amazingly, but you had the funk going,
Speaker 3: you had the bass player.
Speaker 5: That was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that song, as you just described, both in
Speaker 3: its intonation, in the in the rhythms and grooves, and
Speaker 3: and also in the actual lyrics, speak so much to
Speaker 3: the church and to gospel. And your band is called
Speaker 3: the Deacon Board. So so talk about your musical background,
Speaker 3: your influences, the role of church, and your music.
Speaker 2: Wow, the musical background has come from very musical family.
Speaker 2: Everybody plays a lot, well, everybody doesn't play.
Speaker 5: A lot of us do play. It is there's a lot.
Speaker 5: Everybody sings though, that's the thing that everybody does. Everybody sings.
Speaker 2: And we grew up in church, but also grew we
Speaker 2: also grew up in the household where if Mary Booker
Speaker 2: was listening to me Halea Jackson, all the children were
Speaker 2: listening to Millie Jackson.
Speaker 3: Chicago Gospel, Great Uh and an R and b. Greade,
Speaker 3: I got it, so it.
Speaker 2: Was always, it was always, but I've never and then
Speaker 2: I grew up not necessarily understanding the difference in the two.
Speaker 2: Like you, it was that one thing you sing, you
Speaker 2: sing in church, and it's one thing that's playing on
Speaker 2: the radio. But if you really, if you, if you
Speaker 2: stand still right and you understand vibrations like it's it's
Speaker 2: it's from the same place. They thumping church just like
Speaker 2: they thumping on this Millie Jackson.
Speaker 5: Record. They crooning in church just like they're crooling on
Speaker 5: the Millie Jackson record. All of that.
Speaker 2: Understanding the narrative of life through the lyric of song
Speaker 2: and through the thump of our foot and hip bone
Speaker 2: and the conditions in which people live and then create in.
Speaker 5: Spite of those conditions is it's always.
Speaker 2: It's fascinating me and it plays out through the work.
Speaker 2: So then growing up with that ass an influence, I
Speaker 2: just bring more of that. I'm just bringing I'm just
Speaker 2: continuing that conversation. Martie Gaines is definitely definitely an influence
Speaker 2: as far as music it's concerned Gill Scott Hearing, because
Speaker 2: Gill Scot Hearing taught me the possibility of that the
Speaker 2: song still houses a poem.
Speaker 3: The songs the poem that's really powerfully said.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Rights for the fact that you could be you know,
Speaker 2: what is a song with without bravery?
Speaker 5: House doesn't stand without courage, you know. So that's what
Speaker 5: I need, that's what.
Speaker 3: Falls in well well, Avery, I just want to say,
Speaker 3: like hearing all those influences certainly show up in your music.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, for us and for our listeners, uh,
Speaker 3: for the fans of some of my best friends are
Speaker 3: we have benefited so much from all those influences in
Speaker 3: the way that you have captured the sacred in the secular. So, uh,
Speaker 3: we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
Speaker 3: we're going to talk a bit more about your artistry.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back. We are back on some of
Speaker 4: my best friends with the amazing Avery Are Young. Avery,
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about I'm thinking about the first time we met,
Speaker 4: which was a bunch of years ago, and it was
Speaker 4: at an art opening in Chicago, and you were doing
Speaker 4: visual art at that time, a sculpture and you were
Speaker 4: presenting this sculpture which was a noose, an actual noose,
Speaker 4: and at the bottom of it were skittles sort of
Speaker 4: scattered around it.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2: That was my first solo exhibition, and so a lot
Speaker 2: of the visual text work was in relationship to it.
Speaker 2: At the time, what was the murder in the trial
Speaker 2: of trayvon Martin. I just really wanted to think about
Speaker 2: the materials, just the material the caves did a lot
Speaker 2: of studying about what was going on and then try
Speaker 2: to implement that ended the materiars used inside.
Speaker 7: Of the.
Speaker 4: And trayvon Martin as he was walking in his in
Speaker 4: his neighborhood, he had gone to the store to buy skittles.
Speaker 5: Yes, yes, skittles.
Speaker 4: So in your exhibit you see this noose and it's
Speaker 4: like ten feet off the ground, and it's made out
Speaker 4: of blue jeans, like torn up blue jeans, the entire noose,
Speaker 4: and it extends on one end all the way to
Speaker 4: the floor where it meets empty bags of skittles, and
Speaker 4: then the candy skittles spread out all on the floor.
Speaker 4: Can you can you tell us you know how you
Speaker 4: made this, like you're you're thinking behind it.
Speaker 5: So we took I took the.
Speaker 2: Jeans and I kind of ripped them up, and then
Speaker 2: my friend Chuld had sold them to so they were
Speaker 2: like this one long piece, and then we soaked it and.
Speaker 5: Arizona Arizona iced teas and all kinds.
Speaker 2: I just stuck a bunch of it, soaked them in
Speaker 2: that for a couple of days, and then once we
Speaker 2: got the once that got it, dried it for a
Speaker 2: minute and then began.
Speaker 5: To do the work of.
Speaker 2: Twisted it so that it would look like a rope
Speaker 2: and what the sugar and I mean the sugar in
Speaker 2: the drinks would help bind, yes, yes, and we're singing
Speaker 2: that that would happen, and like it worked, and I
Speaker 2: was like, and then we went about the business of
Speaker 2: time the noose and I remember like that day every
Speaker 2: other day it was. It was it was really hard
Speaker 2: that I cut off. I cut off the lights and
Speaker 2: I kept listening to a strange fruit over and over,
Speaker 2: and I kept listening, and so I listened to three
Speaker 2: different versions replay, and that was the Howard Day's version,
Speaker 2: and it was this and Mimes Simon's version and Cassandra
Speaker 2: Wilson's version, and I just listened to those in a
Speaker 2: loop and kind of took my time to to.
Speaker 5: Tad News and I.
Speaker 4: Could avery, yeah, I mean this idea that you captured
Speaker 4: of Trayvon Martin also being lynched, and this is my
Speaker 4: first introduction to you, and I'm seeing this and this
Speaker 4: powerful visual art, and then I'm thinking about, well, who
Speaker 4: is this guy? What what is his artistry? And then
Speaker 4: that same night you performed Resurrect Fred, which is really
Speaker 4: performance art. It's a song and more than that, and
Speaker 4: I was like, Oh, this guy isn't just a visual artist.
Speaker 4: He is this you know, multi varied performance artist. Like
Speaker 4: there's so much there's something else going on here. And
Speaker 4: so this Resurrect Fred is about Fred Hampton, who is
Speaker 4: the twenty one year old Black panther leader who was
Speaker 4: murdered by police in nineteen sixty nine. He was sleeping
Speaker 4: in his home in the early morning and they raided
Speaker 4: and they murder him. And you know, maybe we could
Speaker 4: just talk about that piece for a moment. What does
Speaker 4: it mean to resurrect Fred?
Speaker 2: Here we go back to this gospel and attachment, this
Speaker 2: attachment to the church. A lot of what influences, especially
Speaker 2: as a performance artist, is preaching and a certain and
Speaker 2: seeing how a person with certain cadence and power and
Speaker 2: confidence and knowledge of a word inscripture and history presents
Speaker 2: this literature which is what you know, a Bible was
Speaker 2: full of poems. Fred is definitely from rooted in the
Speaker 2: scripture of the Resuscitation of Lazarus, who at the time,
Speaker 2: there's a there's a description in the Bible says Jesus
Speaker 2: wept right and it's kind of the.
Speaker 5: Only noted recording of the weeping.
Speaker 2: But always like why, you know, because he was he
Speaker 2: had lost a good friend, and the community lost a
Speaker 2: very good friend and ally and advocate them when they
Speaker 2: lost Chairman Fred and all the others got lost. That
Speaker 2: was within that within that time, we're talking about very
Speaker 2: violent political time in American history, and Chairman Fred was
Speaker 2: definitely not the only person who was slain in this time.
Speaker 2: But the idea at the end of the day that
Speaker 2: was just these young black people that wanted better for
Speaker 2: their community.
Speaker 5: You know, we talked about we talked about the guns and.
Speaker 2: And them protected community with artillery, but they were also
Speaker 2: waking up in the morning, fixing breakfast and serving it
Speaker 2: to the panthers, and they be in the Black Panthers.
Speaker 5: So song resurrect Fred is let's let's let's get that together.
Speaker 5: So that's what I wane when I'm saying resurrect Fred.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's it's about the resurrection of that work, that
Speaker 2: work that is happening or what was happening in the
Speaker 2: communities with the Black Panthers, and that's how that that's
Speaker 2: how they comes about coming.
Speaker 3: So Avery, I didn't meet you that way, and and
Speaker 3: this is my first time really getting to know you
Speaker 3: in this personal way, and I'm just really grateful for
Speaker 3: this opportunity. But I did get a chance to see
Speaker 3: Emmett till the Remix, which is a video performance that
Speaker 3: that that you've done, and I mean it's like it's
Speaker 3: incredible and in a way that speaks directly to what
Speaker 3: you describe with resurrect Fred, meaning that here is this
Speaker 3: this young man who's killed in uh mississipp be Uh.
Speaker 3: His killing inspires an entire generation of civil rights activists,
Speaker 3: and you tell the entire story of what happened to
Speaker 3: him in this performance.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: You you you call back to actually the presence of
Speaker 3: the community at the time that they bear witness and
Speaker 3: it's really powerful to see in the video. But could
Speaker 3: you could you set the context for what you do
Speaker 3: in I Matilda Remix by singing a little bit.
Speaker 4: Of it for us, man, we are getting our money's
Speaker 4: worth there, man, ohn is such an it is such
Speaker 4: a space.
Speaker 5: And again.
Speaker 4: We are you there.
Speaker 5: When they did what they did to that ball?
Speaker 8: Where there.
Speaker 5: When they did what they did to that ball? Were
Speaker 5: you there when they snatched the mile? It was her
Speaker 5: uncle's house? Well you're there, they snatched the mile to
Speaker 5: your uncle's high?
Speaker 2: Is this him?
Speaker 1: Is this skill?
Speaker 3: Is it?
Speaker 2: Is this him?
Speaker 4: Is this skim missage?
Speaker 2: Is this shame?
Speaker 4: Is this.
Speaker 8: Hum?
Speaker 5: Whoa care?
Speaker 3: Is this?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Man?
Speaker 4: Thank you that that that that were you there? That
Speaker 4: you part like you're telling the story and it's bearing witness,
Speaker 4: but it also feels like an accusation, like you were
Speaker 4: you there? Tell us about that? Like that you're you're
Speaker 4: putting a burden on us too.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that particular peace is.
Speaker 2: Flipping around a hem or spiritual about the crucifixion of
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Where you're there when they crucify the Lord.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble where you're there
Speaker 2: when they crucified the Lord? And again I actually were
Speaker 2: you there to be a witness?
Speaker 4: You know this?
Speaker 5: It's placing it, it's.
Speaker 2: Doing this thing that Gwyndolan Brooks does and we real
Speaker 2: coul right, the womans and they real cool. They left school.
Speaker 2: And by using the language we it implicates any and
Speaker 2: everybody that reads it. So you're one of the seven.
Speaker 2: You're one of the seven at the goal of the shovel, right,
Speaker 2: And so using that language where you there, even if
Speaker 2: you weren't born in a time right, you get through,
Speaker 2: You get through this journey, where you get through this language,
Speaker 2: bear witness to this murder. And the sad part of
Speaker 2: it is just like when you hear I've talked about
Speaker 2: it and Mantel Trayvon Martin. You know, because you keep
Speaker 2: seeing this level of racial terrorism repeated and repeated us.
Speaker 2: It gets repeated throughout the song.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Avery, I just have to say, for folks who
Speaker 3: haven't seen this video, which we will, we will most
Speaker 3: certainly link to for the show, that everything you've been
Speaker 3: describing in terms of like the mashup of the past.
Speaker 3: You've talked about biblical times, you're talking about the time
Speaker 3: of Jesus' crucifixion, You've talked about the time of the
Speaker 3: civil rights movement. And in this video you stand alone
Speaker 3: first in a church as a song begins, just as
Speaker 3: you started here singing today and yet all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: the scenery changes and it shifts from a church with
Speaker 3: you as a single person singing out loud in a
Speaker 3: kind of plaintiff cry, to a civil rights march, and
Speaker 3: they're signed. You're surrounded by people with I Am a
Speaker 3: man signs, and then the scene shifts again and you're
Speaker 3: at a Black Lives Matter rally. And what comes through
Speaker 3: in this video performance is precisely your call to recognize
Speaker 3: the past in the present and the need as you
Speaker 3: say at the end of this song, when you call
Speaker 3: out who's gonna live, Who's gonna live? Who's gonna live
Speaker 3: for Emmet, which is to say, who's gonna live today
Speaker 3: for the people who continue to suffer from racism in America?
Speaker 3: It's just so powerful And who's to fight for?
Speaker 2: That's one of the lines too, celebrating the life of
Speaker 2: a person who is no longer with us, and then
Speaker 2: celebrating my life of a person who still is. The
Speaker 2: idea that length of that particular line, Who's going to
Speaker 2: live is what you do in this body that will
Speaker 2: continue to tell the continue to tell the story of
Speaker 2: this person who couldn't And that's just the thing we
Speaker 2: feel with a lot of people feel anger. It gives
Speaker 2: us questions and give the particular that image Til like
Speaker 2: being said, sparked a whole and inspired a whole level
Speaker 2: of civil rights movement. Rosa Parks has noted to say
Speaker 2: that that's who she was thinking of actually stay in
Speaker 2: her seat on the bus.
Speaker 5: Muhammad Ali talked.
Speaker 2: About learning about Immin Tell and seeing the image in
Speaker 2: it on the on the front page of a newspaper
Speaker 2: and all all of these things that have that particular
Speaker 2: death moves people to so many different motions and then
Speaker 2: they get to that last line, but who's gonna leave?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, such a such a powerful way to keep
Speaker 3: the memory of Emmettel present in the ongoing struggle for
Speaker 3: a new generation of young people who have been fighting
Speaker 3: against this problem. We're gonna take another break, and when
Speaker 3: we come back, we're gonna talk about you as poet laureate.
Speaker 4: We'll be right back, man, Avery, We are back on
Speaker 4: some of my best friends. I thank you so much.
Speaker 4: This has been just incredible and Khalil, I have had
Speaker 4: the great fortune of seeing Avery performing person, and it
Speaker 4: is this mix of all these things. It's visual our
Speaker 4: it's dance, it's preaching, it's spoken word, it's poetry. Mostly
Speaker 4: I'm you know, it's off in participatory and I'm off
Speaker 4: in there and I'm thinking, don't pick me, don't pick me.
Speaker 3: No, no, no no, You're like you're like you're like
Speaker 3: your leg star.
Speaker 4: You can't. Before I'm told, I was like, thank god
Speaker 4: you didn't pull me into the center.
Speaker 5: Called up to the podium.
Speaker 4: Yes, so Avery, you know, we've we've heard your poetry
Speaker 4: today in song. But you're you're now the poet Laureate
Speaker 4: of Chicago, and let's talk about that.
Speaker 7: What is that?
Speaker 4: What does that job entail? What have you been doing
Speaker 4: for these last several weeks.
Speaker 2: I've been doing a lot of readings at this point,
Speaker 2: but I plan to do a lot of community building
Speaker 2: so and get calls, Hey, you've been you, You've been like,
Speaker 2: it's gonna be you.
Speaker 5: It's like all.
Speaker 4: Smack is like a bad signal, like a poetry.
Speaker 2: It was hilarious because I had just had lunch with
Speaker 2: Eve you and it was like my niece and I
Speaker 2: was telling her friends, so yes, and I was telling Eve,
Speaker 2: you know, I think it's gonna be you, like I
Speaker 2: dominated you, and he was like no.
Speaker 4: I was talking to Jamila, Sila would Tomila Wood is
Speaker 4: another amazing Chicago musician and artists.
Speaker 2: And poet right and they both like these young women
Speaker 2: who you know, with the wrestle of a generation of
Speaker 2: artists in Chicago, who I've mentored and talked and like
Speaker 2: I said, and just in community with. But I got
Speaker 2: the news and I was like really like excited and honored,
Speaker 2: and like the coolest part is be being the innamural one.
Speaker 2: I get to figure it out, you know, and really
Speaker 2: set up shop for those who who will follow as
Speaker 2: poet lauriate. And like I said right now, a lot
Speaker 2: of it has really been reading the inaugurate, the inauguration,
Speaker 2: the juneteen celebration. I just did the l A A conference,
Speaker 2: American Library Association conference. So a lot of it has been,
Speaker 2: you know, reading in my capacity support laureate. But a
Speaker 2: lot of the work would be with just build a
Speaker 2: community and get in Chicago to write poems together and things.
Speaker 5: Of that nature.
Speaker 4: You you evoked Gwendolyn Brooks earlier and when we were
Speaker 4: in like middle school, Uh, she was the Illinois Poet laureate. Yes,
Speaker 4: and I just remember what it meant to have her
Speaker 4: presence being around that she would like show up at
Speaker 4: the school and people talked about it, and she was
Speaker 4: somebody that that was you saw and that her poems
Speaker 4: you cited. We real cool. They felt accessible, they felt
Speaker 4: like they were about the city. She's in Africa, an
Speaker 4: American woman, she was, she was older, she felt like
Speaker 4: an ant to a lot of people. And yeah, and
Speaker 4: I just you know that idea. So that's a kind
Speaker 4: of rule.
Speaker 2: I get to go to schools and you know, get
Speaker 2: to go to schools, like I said, and I really
Speaker 2: want to get students together to write with each other,
Speaker 2: you know, and write and write these massive or epic
Speaker 2: poems with each other, you know, and not just be
Speaker 2: about me coming to the school and saying, hey, I'm
Speaker 2: every young and I'm the Chicago Poet Laureate, but really
Speaker 2: building community ways in which so many other organizations who
Speaker 2: I've worked with in the past is done. So Bama
Speaker 2: Gwenland definitely has set the set, the tone and precedent
Speaker 2: of how I would believe to kind of show up
Speaker 2: and be present during my tenure as laureate. But I
Speaker 2: also understand that I have to take I have I
Speaker 2: have to also craft it to be my own so
Speaker 2: that when you're people had this memory decades from now,
Speaker 2: I remember, well, uncle, yes, and be the thing and
Speaker 2: all of your stuff, and people will talk about me
Speaker 2: the way they talk about her.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 3: Well, so so you have this, you have this book
Speaker 3: of poetry called neck Bone, and you you subtitle it
Speaker 3: visual Versus. So so let's talk about about that, because clearly,
Speaker 3: as a multidisciplinary artist, you cannot keep your brain working
Speaker 3: on one track.
Speaker 5: So it's full up up in the brain between the eyes.
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, but that was even the.
Speaker 2: Point, so I think when well, for me, mm hmm,
Speaker 2: the the poem that you see on the page is
Speaker 2: extracted language.
Speaker 5: It's language that you pick from.
Speaker 2: All the words and all the imagery that's going on
Speaker 2: in your brain and inside your imagination. I keep, I
Speaker 2: keep trying to talk about this and not sound like
Speaker 2: it's just voodoo. Yes, it's just like that is that
Speaker 2: is with intent. But so that the idea of then
Speaker 2: just being transparent of how I see a poem as
Speaker 2: opposed to extracting the language from what I see, is
Speaker 2: why how visual visual versus come.
Speaker 5: I'm a little just showing what I see.
Speaker 4: M favery, You're giving us like a view into how
Speaker 4: your mind is working. Which yeah, I think I think
Speaker 4: these poems do, which is you're having a conversation, often
Speaker 4: with received images, like with pop culture, of things that
Speaker 4: are important to you. And so there's like this triangulation
Speaker 4: that's going on, and then it's sort of visual for you,
Speaker 4: and then it's being turned into words.
Speaker 3: But it's also can I just say it's also the
Speaker 3: book has seventy colorful colored illustrations, So this isn't you're
Speaker 3: not speaking purely in attraction. You actually have drawn in
Speaker 3: the book. You've used your artistic visual talent to actually
Speaker 3: put in the book illustrations in a book of poetry,
Speaker 3: which is unusual for most for most poets, and.
Speaker 4: The words are often the text is often part of
Speaker 4: like a painting or a drawing. I want to I
Speaker 4: want to ask you a question about your work, and
Speaker 4: both your work is poet laureate of Chicago, and really
Speaker 4: all you're at work in a way you're reimagining Chicago
Speaker 4: and telling a Chicago story. And I want to ask
Speaker 4: you that, like, what is the story of Chicago that
Speaker 4: you're trying to change and reinterpret and reinvent.
Speaker 2: I don't necessarily I'm reinventing or reimagine in Chicago. I
Speaker 2: think I present the Chicago that I experience, Okay, and
Speaker 2: I do experience Chicago a lot of times through my
Speaker 2: imagination or in the context of others imagination, because I'm
Speaker 2: part of the creative community. Right when you hear about
Speaker 2: Chicago through the media and then the quote unquote the news,
Speaker 2: you see, you see the Chicago that I just don't experience, right,
Speaker 2: And not that I don't realize that it's there, because
Speaker 2: again with the babies I've talked, I've been, I've been
Speaker 2: sitting there, I've sung at funerals of students I had
Speaker 2: talked two weeks prior, you know, so that I understand
Speaker 2: and totally am aware of the whatever the news says
Speaker 2: about Chicago, which is basically the violence, in the in
Speaker 2: the weather. That's wacky, wacky and quacky, you know. But
Speaker 2: I also get to experience people in community, one another,
Speaker 2: the extended family.
Speaker 5: When I say Eve and Jamila like my nieces, they
Speaker 5: are truly like my nieces.
Speaker 2: And then we ain't have no we have no biological
Speaker 2: connection to each other, but the extension and the extension
Speaker 2: of family is you know, I have a very diverse
Speaker 2: dinner table, you know. And again as we treated and
Speaker 2: love each other's family. So I'm trying to present the
Speaker 2: Chicago that I get. But the work is always or
Speaker 2: why not. The work is really in the imagination.
Speaker 5: When I tell students write what you know I was,
Speaker 5: when they always well, right, what you know? Right right?
Speaker 1: What you know?
Speaker 5: And you know a thing because you've.
Speaker 2: Either experienced it, witnessed it, you know, you've researched it
Speaker 2: to the point where you feel like you know it
Speaker 2: enough to write about it, or the best space of all,
Speaker 2: it's just to imagine it, because when you imagine it,
Speaker 2: can't nobody tell you they had yours?
Speaker 4: Does it did?
Speaker 5: Because I had this way, I said, and so that is,
Speaker 5: you know.
Speaker 2: That's what I tell That's really both boss situation, that's
Speaker 2: to your imagination. You can implement the things you researched
Speaker 2: and the things in which you know, and the things
Speaker 2: and what you experienced into the imagination. You're doing something
Speaker 2: totally like beyond beyond you know. That's why I teach.
Speaker 4: That's just why it's amazing to be inside your imagination,
Speaker 4: even for this past, you know, even for this conversation.
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3: Well listen, we've talked a lot about Chicago just now.
Speaker 3: But some of my best friends are has taken Lil
Speaker 3: Lily International. We have listeners all over the world, so
Speaker 3: we are just grateful to be on this journey with you.
Speaker 3: You are certainly one of our best friends, and we
Speaker 3: are so excited for what is to come for you
Speaker 3: in the future. Thank you so much, Avery for joining
Speaker 3: us today, for taking some time out and sharing your
Speaker 3: artistry with us.
Speaker 5: Thank you.
Speaker 4: All right, Khalil, speaking of theme songs, this is our
Speaker 4: last episode of the season. Yeah, and also for now
Speaker 4: at least, our last episode with the show.
Speaker 3: It's not goodbye, it's farewell. It has been an amazing journey,
Speaker 3: at least for me. I don't know about you, but
Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about the fact
Speaker 3: that we have done this show as part of our
Speaker 3: own relationship. Like, you know, we've done a lot of
Speaker 3: things together over the years, and this show just fits
Speaker 3: right in with that. Yeah, and we talked about so
Speaker 3: many of those things. But I want to reminisce a
Speaker 3: little bit, like you know, we had our first jobs together,
Speaker 3: a computer store, a grocery store. You know, we played
Speaker 3: tennis together. I learned how to play, you know, oftentimes
Speaker 3: competing against you, and I was like thirteen years old,
Speaker 3: fourteen years old.
Speaker 4: I'm tearing up a little bit. And the thing, the
Speaker 4: thing is, I also taught you how to host a podcast,
Speaker 4: and I feel like I'm, you know, teaching you over
Speaker 4: so many episodes. It's been that's been a beautiful thing.
Speaker 3: Of course, of course I feel that way.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 3: I also like memory lane, Like my first poker game
Speaker 3: was at your house, My first shibot dinner, first time
Speaker 3: I ever researched in a college library was because your
Speaker 3: dad sent us there during a teacher strike when we
Speaker 3: were fifteen to sixteen years old.
Speaker 4: That's right, crycial decade I got.
Speaker 3: I got my first high school girlfriends because of you
Speaker 3: and your then high school sweetheart now wife, Daniel Ure
Speaker 3: hooking you up, and we stood up in each other's
Speaker 3: we weddings. We were there when our first borns came
Speaker 3: into the world, not actually at the delivery table, but
Speaker 3: like within forty eight hours. The first time I ever
Speaker 3: rented a place with Stephanie at Martha's Vineyard without being
Speaker 3: like with your parents or with my parents in this case,
Speaker 3: guess who was there me?
Speaker 4: That's right, you were there, because I don't remember any
Speaker 4: of these things. Well, yes, you do, so this is
Speaker 4: important to document it.
Speaker 3: I love this well. I just think like in a
Speaker 3: way thinking of retrospectively about what's gone on these last
Speaker 3: two years, which represents now our thirty seventh year, and
Speaker 3: a relationship has also been thinking about our friendship through
Speaker 3: this podcast.
Speaker 4: Yeah, actually doing this podcast together in this way and
Speaker 4: working with you, it's like making meaning out of both
Speaker 4: our relationship and our lives and the things we're experiencing
Speaker 4: in the world, but making that meaning together. I know
Speaker 4: that I I went into writing in a lot of
Speaker 4: ways because I wanted to make meaning out of the
Speaker 4: world and for this process that that each week, you know,
Speaker 4: and sitting down on these on these calls. Uh, we
Speaker 4: were doing that together and we're like, we're talking to
Speaker 4: each other all the time, like maybe we should have
Speaker 4: this person as a guest, or did you read this story,
Speaker 4: or what do you think about that? Doing that with
Speaker 4: you has been you know, all the work I've done,
Speaker 4: this in some ways is the is certainly the most
Speaker 4: joyous and a lot of ways the most meaningful. Yeah.
Speaker 3: No, I feel the same way. And I thought you
Speaker 3: were going to add to like sitting down for these
Speaker 3: calls like the shit ton of work we do because, man,
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm pretty sure our listeners will appreciate this,
Speaker 3: but we've read a shit ton of books, We've watched
Speaker 3: a shit ton of television, we have watched movies multiple times.
Speaker 3: Our producers have been and indefatigable in following big words
Speaker 3: yeah and following up archival tape so that the show could,
Speaker 3: you know, have these beautiful moments.
Speaker 4: Can I say something a little darker too? I mean,
Speaker 4: we started working on this show about three years ago,
Speaker 4: and it was right after George Floyd's murder. It was
Speaker 4: in that moment of national reckoning on race. And maybe
Speaker 4: that's even we had the show.
Speaker 3: That is exactly one of the reasons we had the show,
Speaker 3: like how can you.
Speaker 4: Talk about race openly and in a way that feels
Speaker 4: honest and you know, two people actually engaging one another
Speaker 4: and then to explore all these topics in the country.
Speaker 4: And over the course of doing this show, you know,
Speaker 4: we've had so much joy, but we've also gone through
Speaker 4: during that time this rapid surprising how fast it was, retrenchment,
Speaker 4: this backlash. The divides that we talk about have only
Speaker 4: become deeper.
Speaker 3: That's right, it does help to think about the fact
Speaker 3: that what we talk about is like almost criminal in
Speaker 3: a lot of states. I mean, we know for a
Speaker 3: fact that we've heard from listeners who are teachers, some
Speaker 3: people have stopped you on the street, and like, I
Speaker 3: have assigned episodes of Some of My Best Friends Are
Speaker 3: to my high school students. And that's in Illinois, of course,
Speaker 3: and I know some of that's happened here in New Jersey,
Speaker 3: but imagine in Florida and Texas. You know, we had
Speaker 3: two really great episodes, one when the attack on critical
Speaker 3: race theory in season one first happened, and then we
Speaker 3: had one this season which looked at how Governor Ron
Speaker 3: DeSantis had in fact helped to draw attention to the
Speaker 3: College Board's curriculum so that a national standard, literally an
Speaker 3: educational standard of the College Board would not be taught
Speaker 3: in Florida and inspired other states for backlash. So, you know,
Speaker 3: our show went from being something that had all the
Speaker 3: possibility of being part of a transformative moment in American
Speaker 3: history to now being a show that could be listed
Speaker 3: as a band resource in a whole bunch of school
Speaker 3: districts all around the county.
Speaker 4: So you think our show actually caused the backlash.
Speaker 3: Well, I have a surprise for you on this point.
Speaker 3: So the Barbie movie the runaway hit of the summer. So, dude,
Speaker 3: you haven't seen the movie, but guess what. There is
Speaker 3: a line in the movie when one of the characters says,
Speaker 3: some of my best friends are Jewish. Dude, I'm telling
Speaker 3: you when you say our show is part of the backlash.
Speaker 4: We made it.
Speaker 3: We made it into the biggest Hollywood hit of the summer.
Speaker 1: Oh man.
Speaker 3: But you raise a really good point, Ben, that it
Speaker 3: was our goal to try to offer something in this
Speaker 3: moment of existential crisis where people weren't quite sure what
Speaker 3: to do as the Trump era was unfolding. We said, like,
Speaker 3: we're going to have this conversation and we're gonna we're
Speaker 3: gonna each week figure out how to understand and say
Speaker 3: something for the rest of the country. And you know,
Speaker 3: in many parts of the world where we have listeners,
Speaker 3: so that we feel like being able to speak to
Speaker 3: what's happening is itself an act of resistance.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And and and to try
Speaker 4: to add to the conversation in a in a productive way,
Speaker 4: in a meaningful way.
Speaker 3: So I know, I know that every listener has kind
Speaker 3: of uh at least at least I've heard, you know,
Speaker 3: people have favorite episodes, but I have my own, and
Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but I want to hear
Speaker 3: a couple of your favorite ones. I I to this
Speaker 3: day absolutely love the Interracial Buddy Films episode, like that,
Speaker 3: that episode, the conversation about forty eight Hours and Leave
Speaker 3: the Weapon, the like scene in that bar scene where
Speaker 3: we talk about what's happening when Eddie Murphy like becomes
Speaker 3: Nick Nolty's character and takes over the bar. And then
Speaker 3: later when you talk about Danny Glover and Mel Gibson
Speaker 3: in this orgasmic embrace man that that was just smart.
Speaker 3: Good mo, you were really smart.
Speaker 4: Well, I'll say, like, I'm gonna speak more generally because
Speaker 4: you know, you and I have a rapport and sort
Speaker 4: of you know, a casualist. So there's something really fantastic
Speaker 4: when people we didn't know that well came on the
Speaker 4: show and we're just completely comfortable with us and be
Speaker 4: completely open. And you know, there's so many examples of that,
Speaker 4: you know, from from Clint Smith to Jay Kang to
Speaker 4: Sam Irby, and then you know in our experiences we
Speaker 4: know or have come across or have access to, so
Speaker 4: many amazing people, so many people who are fascinating and
Speaker 4: who are truly our friends in some way. And to
Speaker 4: have people on like Avery Today or or Eve Ewing
Speaker 4: or Amanda Williams or Zay Dorn killing it, you are
Speaker 4: dropping all those Nathie Stewart, my sister, uh Sasha Penn,
Speaker 4: you know. But then I have to say that there
Speaker 4: are moments for me and maybe this is like the
Speaker 4: Buddy Films one that you said when it's just us talking.
Speaker 4: And there was a moment when we were doing a
Speaker 4: show about comedy.
Speaker 3: And I think it was started The Bad and the Funny, and.
Speaker 4: It started by Dave Chappelle having this Netflix show. But
Speaker 4: we decided that we would reveal to one another some
Speaker 4: of our favorite comedy moments. And there was a moment
Speaker 4: on air while we're recording when it turned out that
Speaker 4: we picked the exact same clip. We both picked this
Speaker 4: Eddie Murphy skit from Saturday Live. And just like the
Speaker 4: joyousness of that moment, the euphoria, like I was just
Speaker 4: like giddy that we you know, our minds were working
Speaker 4: the same.
Speaker 3: Moody and kurrt. If you missed that episode, listeners, go
Speaker 3: back and Ben is like a four year old kid,
Speaker 3: just so happy. Funny thing is for this conversation. I
Speaker 3: actually picked that memory, that memory too.
Speaker 4: Ah see.
Speaker 3: You know, listen, I mean, this is the one opportunity
Speaker 3: that we have in two seasons, over two years of episodes,
Speaker 3: to share what someone else thought about our show other
Speaker 3: than us. And so I'm going to read one listener review,
Speaker 3: and of course it's a good one, because who gets
Speaker 3: a shit about the ones that hated us?
Speaker 4: Man, So this is very healthy. That's a very healthy
Speaker 4: way I would I'm the person that only looks at
Speaker 4: the negative one. This is a difference between us too.
Speaker 4: Everybody be more like Khalil So.
Speaker 3: From June eighth, twenty twenty three, on the Apple podcast app,
Speaker 3: a listener whose hashtag is my alter ego is a
Speaker 3: Navy Seal titled their five star review as the Intersection
Speaker 3: of Information and Joy. And this is what this listener wrote,
Speaker 3: I love this podcast so much. It gives me so
Speaker 3: much joy to hear two men speak frankly about the
Speaker 3: aspects of a long, beautiful friendship. I want to go
Speaker 3: to Martha's vineyard on vacation with these two amazing families.
Speaker 3: Carry on with great joy heart emoji. But there's more.
Speaker 4: Oh.
Speaker 3: This listener adds update. As I continue to listen to
Speaker 3: this informative, educational, important podcast. May I just say that
Speaker 3: nothing on this beautiful, fragile planet brings me more joy
Speaker 3: and yes, with a tear in my eye than at
Speaker 3: the end when you sign off with I love you, Man,
Speaker 3: I love you too, Yes, yes, thank you. My alter
Speaker 3: ego is a Navy seal, because in my darkest moments
Speaker 3: to come, I will be coming back to this review
Speaker 3: to know that we brought some joy in the world.
Speaker 4: That's beautiful. Well, let me ask you. Let me ask
Speaker 4: you a kind of thought experiment. As close as we are.
Speaker 4: If you could think of anyone else to have done
Speaker 4: this podcast with, even even a historical figure, who would
Speaker 4: it be? Man?
Speaker 3: I think I would have done it with Eddie Murphy?
Speaker 4: Huh interesting? Okay, I got you, Yeah, I got you.
Speaker 4: I got you because I would have still chosen you.
Speaker 4: That's fucked up, all right, we gotta go see everybody later. Khali, Yeah,
Speaker 4: my bad.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. All right, So listen before we sign off.
Speaker 3: We've got a couple more listeners who are gonna leave
Speaker 3: us with some parting thoughts.
Speaker 7: Hey, bro, I'm really gonna miss you being in my
Speaker 7: closet like twice a week with Khalil. It has been
Speaker 7: really awesome to have you guys get to spend this
Speaker 7: much time together.
Speaker 5: And I can't wait till see what you guys cook
Speaker 5: up next.
Speaker 4: All right, beautiful, that's Khalil's wife, Stephanie. That's beautiful.
Speaker 6: Thank you for that, Ben and Khalil. I can't believe
Speaker 6: it's your final episode. Congratulations on your podcast. I'm so
Speaker 6: happy the world got to hear just how smart, andsightful
Speaker 6: and fucking funny you guys are. I'm privileged because I
Speaker 6: get to continue to see your love, friendship, and brotherhood.
Speaker 6: Congrats guys.
Speaker 4: That's beautiful. That's my wife, Danielle. And the beautiful part
Speaker 4: of the podcast is she still has so many episodes
Speaker 4: to catch up on so she can enjoy this for
Speaker 4: years to come.
Speaker 3: Well, I can't speak on that, but I can say
Speaker 3: that they were part of the show for sure, and
Speaker 3: I think if we were going to thank you, at
Speaker 3: least a couple people beyond our producers and the Pushkin family,
Speaker 3: I think we had to give it up to Stephanie
Speaker 3: and Danielle.
Speaker 4: The loves of our lives.
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, that's right, all right man. Well, I'm
Speaker 3: sorry that I would have chosen Eddie Murphy if I
Speaker 3: had to do this again, but you know I did.
Speaker 3: There's a trick question.
Speaker 4: There are no trick questions. There are no trick questions,
Speaker 4: only only revealing our true selves.
Speaker 3: The truth is that there's no substitute for you, and
Speaker 3: and this has been an amazing run. And yeah, I
Speaker 3: guess no surprises here.
Speaker 4: I love you, man, I'll see you on the other side.
Speaker 4: Love you too.
Speaker 3: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil,
Speaker 3: Jabron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin.
Speaker 4: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang.
Speaker 4: It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keyshell Williams.
Speaker 4: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our managing producer
Speaker 4: is Constanza Guyardo.
Speaker 3: At Pushkin thanks to Leitol, Molad, Julia Barton, Heather Fein,
Speaker 3: Carly Migliori, John Schnarz, Greta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.
Speaker 4: Our theme song, Little Lily is by fellow Chicaguan the
Speaker 4: brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Tubman. You definitely
Speaker 4: want to check out his music at his website, Averyaryong
Speaker 4: dot com.
Speaker 3: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin
Speaker 3: Pods and you can sign up for our newsletter at
Speaker 3: pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on
Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.
Speaker 4: And if you like our show, please give us a
Speaker 4: five star rating and a review and listen. Even if
Speaker 4: you don't like it, give it a five star rating
Speaker 4: and a review, and please tell all of your best
Speaker 4: friends about it. Thank you, Sir
Speaker 3: MHM