1 00:00:14,076 --> 00:00:28,476 Speaker 1: Pushing God, Lily, your kinfold, what's your baby daddy's coming? 2 00:00:28,676 --> 00:00:37,116 Speaker 2: Go your baby daddies too shame and or criminal to stay. 3 00:00:46,436 --> 00:00:47,836 Speaker 3: I'm Khalil Jbron Muhammad. 4 00:00:48,116 --> 00:00:51,796 Speaker 4: I'm Ben Austin. We are two best friends, one black, 5 00:00:52,156 --> 00:00:52,676 Speaker 4: one white. 6 00:00:53,436 --> 00:00:56,876 Speaker 3: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is 7 00:00:56,996 --> 00:00:59,276 Speaker 3: some of my best friends are wait. 8 00:00:59,236 --> 00:01:02,716 Speaker 4: Khalil, this is our last episode of the season, and 9 00:01:02,756 --> 00:01:05,476 Speaker 4: I'm starting to figure something out. Some of my best 10 00:01:05,516 --> 00:01:09,396 Speaker 4: friends are like, we're best friends, but it's also like 11 00:01:09,476 --> 00:01:11,796 Speaker 4: that racist thing that people say, or that prejudice thing. 12 00:01:12,156 --> 00:01:14,196 Speaker 4: You know, some of my best friends are. It's a 13 00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:14,836 Speaker 4: double meaning. 14 00:01:15,596 --> 00:01:16,956 Speaker 3: You've just figured this out. 15 00:01:17,876 --> 00:01:20,716 Speaker 4: What a great title. In this show, we wrestle with 16 00:01:20,756 --> 00:01:24,716 Speaker 4: the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and 17 00:01:24,916 --> 00:01:25,756 Speaker 4: unequal country. 18 00:01:26,116 --> 00:01:28,516 Speaker 3: And yep, you said it. This is our last episode 19 00:01:28,516 --> 00:01:31,316 Speaker 3: of the season. Man, what a journey it's been this year. 20 00:01:31,956 --> 00:01:35,516 Speaker 3: But what a fitting way to come back to where 21 00:01:35,556 --> 00:01:38,876 Speaker 3: it all started with Lil Lily and the man behind 22 00:01:38,996 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 3: that magical song that just always makes me really feel 23 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:43,876 Speaker 3: good about this show. 24 00:01:45,516 --> 00:01:48,316 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you're hearing that right now. And we are 25 00:01:48,476 --> 00:01:51,716 Speaker 4: so excited to have Avery R. Young with us. He's 26 00:01:51,756 --> 00:01:54,956 Speaker 4: the Poet Laureate of Chicago, the sound of this show, 27 00:01:55,596 --> 00:01:59,436 Speaker 4: and just an amazingly talented soul. We're going to talk 28 00:01:59,436 --> 00:02:03,316 Speaker 4: to him about his work as an interdisciplinary artist and educator, 29 00:02:03,716 --> 00:02:14,116 Speaker 4: and of course how it all comes back to Chicago. Avery, 30 00:02:14,236 --> 00:02:16,236 Speaker 4: what's up man? It is so good to have you 31 00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:17,316 Speaker 4: on the show. Wow. 32 00:02:17,476 --> 00:02:20,836 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yes, this is a full circle moment 33 00:02:20,916 --> 00:02:21,956 Speaker 3: for some of my best friends. 34 00:02:22,036 --> 00:02:26,076 Speaker 5: Are yes, you all for having me. 35 00:02:26,476 --> 00:02:31,356 Speaker 4: And hey, congratulations, I'm being named the first Poet Laureate 36 00:02:31,476 --> 00:02:32,236 Speaker 4: of Chicago. 37 00:02:33,076 --> 00:02:35,396 Speaker 2: That's so crazy. Every time people say that, I'm like, 38 00:02:37,876 --> 00:02:40,236 Speaker 2: thank you so much, thank you so much. It's honored 39 00:02:40,276 --> 00:02:44,476 Speaker 2: to be here. And yeah, because y'all don't don't don't don't. 40 00:02:48,956 --> 00:02:51,996 Speaker 4: That's right, that's right. So you know what I was 41 00:02:52,036 --> 00:02:54,356 Speaker 4: going to say is I knew you back when before, 42 00:02:54,636 --> 00:02:57,356 Speaker 4: before you were all this hot stuff Poet laureate. Yeah, 43 00:02:57,396 --> 00:03:01,436 Speaker 4: and your song Lil Lily, I was, I was. I 44 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:03,956 Speaker 4: was the one who introduced Khalil to it, and we 45 00:03:04,076 --> 00:03:08,076 Speaker 4: wanted a Chicago artist, that's right. And and that song, 46 00:03:08,636 --> 00:03:13,476 Speaker 4: you know, it's funky way like, it's so emotional and 47 00:03:13,756 --> 00:03:17,316 Speaker 4: honest in a lot of ways and alive and every 48 00:03:17,356 --> 00:03:20,356 Speaker 4: time I hear it, I moved. I'm like, I'm physically moved, 49 00:03:20,436 --> 00:03:23,276 Speaker 4: and so yeah, that that's that's why I sort of like, 50 00:03:23,516 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 4: you know, we started considering it and I presented to 51 00:03:26,076 --> 00:03:27,596 Speaker 4: Khalil and we were like, yeah, this is it, this 52 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 4: is it. 53 00:03:28,516 --> 00:03:31,716 Speaker 3: Yeah, man, yeah, I appreciate it. Well listen you uh 54 00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:35,356 Speaker 3: you passed the first litmus test on on this side 55 00:03:35,516 --> 00:03:37,636 Speaker 3: of the Some of my best friends are with Little 56 00:03:37,636 --> 00:03:40,156 Speaker 3: Lily because I played it for my wife Stephanie and 57 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:43,436 Speaker 3: she was like, oh man, that is hot. So that 58 00:03:43,796 --> 00:03:46,636 Speaker 3: that that made it. That made it a done deal, 59 00:03:46,836 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 3: and we are just so grateful in so many ways. Avery. 60 00:03:51,116 --> 00:03:54,116 Speaker 3: Our show has always had you as a sonic partner. 61 00:03:54,236 --> 00:03:55,596 Speaker 3: Is a better way to part it? 62 00:03:57,596 --> 00:03:57,876 Speaker 5: Love it? 63 00:03:58,076 --> 00:04:00,476 Speaker 2: I mean I think that I think that was the 64 00:04:00,596 --> 00:04:03,116 Speaker 2: fit of the song in the show, because I mean 65 00:04:03,156 --> 00:04:06,636 Speaker 2: the lyric content that song is heavy. 66 00:04:07,196 --> 00:04:07,396 Speaker 6: You know. 67 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:11,196 Speaker 3: That's so that's that's something that I want to know 68 00:04:11,316 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 3: a little bit more about. I mean, you know, what 69 00:04:14,396 --> 00:04:15,676 Speaker 3: is the story behind the song? 70 00:04:16,916 --> 00:04:21,836 Speaker 2: Oh goodness, the story behind the song is so the 71 00:04:23,076 --> 00:04:26,676 Speaker 2: song is on a record called Tubman, and Tubman is 72 00:04:26,876 --> 00:04:31,876 Speaker 2: like the sonic poems that I couldn't put in a 73 00:04:31,956 --> 00:04:37,676 Speaker 2: book right, and the book Neckbone right, so I had 74 00:04:38,156 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 2: Neckbone is full of visual and traditional verse. And then 75 00:04:41,716 --> 00:04:44,356 Speaker 2: there's these Then there was these sounds that I were 76 00:04:44,396 --> 00:04:47,716 Speaker 2: hearing or the songs whatever I was hearing that I 77 00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:49,756 Speaker 2: wouldn't you can't put in the book. 78 00:04:49,796 --> 00:04:51,116 Speaker 5: So I was like, well, let me put it in that. 79 00:04:52,076 --> 00:04:54,796 Speaker 5: Let me put it in the record. And the lily 80 00:04:55,316 --> 00:05:00,196 Speaker 5: is in response to a poem in the book about 81 00:05:00,236 --> 00:05:00,596 Speaker 5: my mother. 82 00:05:00,836 --> 00:05:06,556 Speaker 2: And so toy Derrecott, who's a wonderful, wonderful writer and 83 00:05:06,756 --> 00:05:08,356 Speaker 2: mentor from from the d. 84 00:05:10,236 --> 00:05:13,796 Speaker 5: From the Choice one time her her. 85 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:19,316 Speaker 2: Assignment to me was to write something in my Darkest Ink, 86 00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:22,636 Speaker 2: and little Lily is one of those pieces that I 87 00:05:22,756 --> 00:05:24,156 Speaker 2: think is from my darkest Ink. 88 00:05:24,316 --> 00:05:27,476 Speaker 4: So we asked like, yeah, what's the dynamic between you 89 00:05:27,516 --> 00:05:28,996 Speaker 4: and your mom? What's the story you want to tell 90 00:05:29,036 --> 00:05:29,396 Speaker 4: about her. 91 00:05:29,476 --> 00:05:37,796 Speaker 5: I'm my mama's favorite, I'm a first child, I'm her 92 00:05:37,876 --> 00:05:43,436 Speaker 5: only boy. We are definitely definitely definitely too blue and 93 00:05:43,516 --> 00:05:47,996 Speaker 5: tight like blue, and we were all of us were 94 00:05:48,076 --> 00:05:49,236 Speaker 5: raised by. 95 00:05:50,716 --> 00:05:53,436 Speaker 2: Her, her aunt, which is like my big mama, which 96 00:05:53,556 --> 00:05:58,196 Speaker 2: is you know, it's it's a really complicated situations. 97 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:01,916 Speaker 3: That word, that's that word, because that's the best hooks 98 00:06:01,956 --> 00:06:03,276 Speaker 3: of the song that is confident. 99 00:06:05,156 --> 00:06:08,076 Speaker 2: It's really it's really complicated. It's lads, just as a 100 00:06:08,196 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 2: testament to a lot of how we how we love 101 00:06:11,076 --> 00:06:14,076 Speaker 2: and how we support, support and take care of each other. 102 00:06:14,196 --> 00:06:17,836 Speaker 2: So my mother is special needs, and the phone really 103 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:22,116 Speaker 2: is really kind of really tackling this, this me being 104 00:06:22,156 --> 00:06:28,836 Speaker 2: a product of sexual abuse, you know, and like they 105 00:06:28,836 --> 00:06:30,596 Speaker 2: have been mothers who was like they can't deal with 106 00:06:30,676 --> 00:06:32,956 Speaker 2: the child, so they you know, and then then there's 107 00:06:32,996 --> 00:06:36,636 Speaker 2: been cases where they over loved, if that's that's a 108 00:06:36,716 --> 00:06:40,756 Speaker 2: word to compensate. So there's this trauma that the baby, 109 00:06:40,956 --> 00:06:45,196 Speaker 2: the baby was in and for my sisters and I, 110 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:49,756 Speaker 2: we just just really felt like normal because we didn't 111 00:06:49,796 --> 00:06:53,676 Speaker 2: feel unloved in any in any shape, form and fashion. 112 00:06:53,756 --> 00:06:56,236 Speaker 2: This was just what our family was shaped into and 113 00:06:56,356 --> 00:06:59,236 Speaker 2: the normality of it is just it was just very normal. 114 00:06:59,716 --> 00:07:09,076 Speaker 2: This is what it is, a mental disability or cognitive issue. 115 00:07:09,756 --> 00:07:14,676 Speaker 2: Don't make her less your mother. That's biology, you know, 116 00:07:14,796 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 2: that's biology. 117 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:16,076 Speaker 7: You know. 118 00:07:17,676 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 5: This woman who is her? 119 00:07:20,276 --> 00:07:23,716 Speaker 2: Who is her aunt stepped in to raise her after 120 00:07:23,836 --> 00:07:27,636 Speaker 2: my uncle brought my mother to her house as my 121 00:07:27,796 --> 00:07:32,876 Speaker 2: grandmother was dealing with substance abuse and the guilt of 122 00:07:34,036 --> 00:07:36,996 Speaker 2: you know, the story of it was the substance abuse 123 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:40,356 Speaker 2: that did this to her child, right, yes, yes, and 124 00:07:40,676 --> 00:07:44,396 Speaker 2: that's a thing that she can't handle, right. So she 125 00:07:44,516 --> 00:07:47,596 Speaker 2: gives the child to her to her son, and he's like, 126 00:07:48,236 --> 00:07:53,156 Speaker 2: but I'm nineteen and I had this other life, the 127 00:07:53,316 --> 00:07:54,756 Speaker 2: rest of his life that I have to live. I 128 00:07:54,796 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 2: can't deal with a special needs child. So he didn't 129 00:07:57,596 --> 00:08:00,076 Speaker 2: give the baby to his mother's sister or his aunt. 130 00:08:00,516 --> 00:08:04,276 Speaker 2: And she takes the baby in, she raises the baby 131 00:08:04,396 --> 00:08:06,716 Speaker 2: is her own, and then that baby's all of a 132 00:08:06,756 --> 00:08:10,756 Speaker 2: sudden start popping up with children, you know, and like 133 00:08:10,876 --> 00:08:11,476 Speaker 2: what do we do. 134 00:08:12,116 --> 00:08:14,476 Speaker 5: We love them and we raise them as they our own, 135 00:08:14,476 --> 00:08:16,396 Speaker 5: and we keep them as you know, a family. And 136 00:08:16,476 --> 00:08:20,516 Speaker 5: that's that's the that's the that's the story. 137 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:25,116 Speaker 3: And there is a yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing all 138 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 3: of that. Avery. So let's let's just break this down 139 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:29,756 Speaker 3: a little bit with the song lyrics. So little Lily 140 00:08:30,116 --> 00:08:32,476 Speaker 3: is your mom, and she has special needs. She was 141 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:35,996 Speaker 3: raised by her aunt because her mother suffered from drug addiction. 142 00:08:36,636 --> 00:08:39,796 Speaker 3: And while your aunt was away at work, your mom 143 00:08:39,956 --> 00:08:43,076 Speaker 3: was sexually abused. And so you sing it's complicated, because 144 00:08:43,116 --> 00:08:45,436 Speaker 3: this is a complicated story, and really this is a 145 00:08:45,516 --> 00:08:48,756 Speaker 3: song as a tribute, uh to your mother who you 146 00:08:48,796 --> 00:08:49,476 Speaker 3: love dealing. 147 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:52,156 Speaker 5: That's you know, that's the story in the sense. And 148 00:08:52,196 --> 00:08:54,876 Speaker 5: then what you do with a song like Little Lily is. 149 00:08:54,956 --> 00:08:57,556 Speaker 4: You you can you sing? Can you sing a little 150 00:08:57,556 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 4: love bit? Avery? 151 00:08:58,116 --> 00:09:05,876 Speaker 5: Because I sing a little bit? It goes hey lily 152 00:09:07,676 --> 00:09:11,276 Speaker 5: song can folk don't need to be slow. 153 00:09:12,636 --> 00:09:17,516 Speaker 8: Ba bunk Mamma married on off to work, now her 154 00:09:17,676 --> 00:09:20,076 Speaker 8: house and stays, and. 155 00:09:24,036 --> 00:09:29,036 Speaker 1: Lily your kinfold, what's your baby daddy's coming? 156 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:37,716 Speaker 8: Go your baby daddies to shame and or criminal to stay? 157 00:09:38,796 --> 00:09:43,556 Speaker 8: Boom boom hell lily boom. 158 00:09:44,156 --> 00:09:50,236 Speaker 2: Don't think guy's been and efficient shield boom boom. 159 00:09:50,756 --> 00:09:52,276 Speaker 5: So may it is song. 160 00:09:53,796 --> 00:09:58,076 Speaker 2: Service you was swore boom above a dog, don't bunk 161 00:09:59,036 --> 00:10:01,196 Speaker 2: hell Lily, doom doom. 162 00:10:01,796 --> 00:10:06,716 Speaker 5: You know nobody can do you like jeeves boom boom, 163 00:10:06,876 --> 00:10:12,316 Speaker 5: bump bump. You know no, I'm gonna do you like 164 00:10:12,476 --> 00:10:20,876 Speaker 5: the love. That's so funny that the lyric, because that's 165 00:10:20,876 --> 00:10:22,036 Speaker 5: the song she used to sing in shirt. 166 00:10:22,076 --> 00:10:30,076 Speaker 2: She was singing the song like nodding, like Jesus, like Lord, 167 00:10:30,156 --> 00:10:30,676 Speaker 2: she's seen it. 168 00:10:30,756 --> 00:10:31,276 Speaker 5: A long time. 169 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 3: So that's how that okay, And little Lily is. 170 00:10:35,116 --> 00:10:38,916 Speaker 2: Your mother, Lily is my mother? Yes, mother Mary going 171 00:10:38,956 --> 00:10:40,156 Speaker 2: off to work. That's the great eyes. 172 00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:42,996 Speaker 3: Yes, all right, all right, Oh my god, my hair 173 00:10:43,196 --> 00:10:45,116 Speaker 3: was standing on in Oh I was. 174 00:10:45,316 --> 00:10:46,196 Speaker 4: I was so moved. 175 00:10:46,196 --> 00:10:48,996 Speaker 3: That's just so beautiful. And and your ability to not 176 00:10:49,116 --> 00:10:52,236 Speaker 3: only sing so amazingly, but you had the funk going, 177 00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:53,356 Speaker 3: you had the bass player. 178 00:10:55,636 --> 00:10:56,036 Speaker 5: That was. 179 00:10:58,116 --> 00:11:02,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that song, as you just described, both in 180 00:11:03,036 --> 00:11:07,116 Speaker 3: its intonation, in the in the rhythms and grooves, and 181 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:10,276 Speaker 3: and also in the actual lyrics, speak so much to 182 00:11:10,636 --> 00:11:13,756 Speaker 3: the church and to gospel. And your band is called 183 00:11:13,956 --> 00:11:17,716 Speaker 3: the Deacon Board. So so talk about your musical background, 184 00:11:17,796 --> 00:11:20,196 Speaker 3: your influences, the role of church, and your music. 185 00:11:21,276 --> 00:11:26,636 Speaker 2: Wow, the musical background has come from very musical family. 186 00:11:26,916 --> 00:11:30,876 Speaker 2: Everybody plays a lot, well, everybody doesn't play. 187 00:11:31,596 --> 00:11:34,796 Speaker 5: A lot of us do play. It is there's a lot. 188 00:11:34,996 --> 00:11:38,316 Speaker 5: Everybody sings though, that's the thing that everybody does. Everybody sings. 189 00:11:38,956 --> 00:11:44,596 Speaker 2: And we grew up in church, but also grew we 190 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:48,516 Speaker 2: also grew up in the household where if Mary Booker 191 00:11:48,636 --> 00:11:51,516 Speaker 2: was listening to me Halea Jackson, all the children were 192 00:11:51,596 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 2: listening to Millie Jackson. 193 00:11:54,836 --> 00:11:57,956 Speaker 3: Chicago Gospel, Great Uh and an R and b. Greade, 194 00:11:58,076 --> 00:12:01,596 Speaker 3: I got it, so it. 195 00:12:01,716 --> 00:12:03,796 Speaker 2: Was always, it was always, but I've never and then 196 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:07,836 Speaker 2: I grew up not necessarily understanding the difference in the two. 197 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:11,276 Speaker 2: Like you, it was that one thing you sing, you 198 00:12:11,396 --> 00:12:13,236 Speaker 2: sing in church, and it's one thing that's playing on 199 00:12:13,276 --> 00:12:17,076 Speaker 2: the radio. But if you really, if you, if you 200 00:12:17,196 --> 00:12:21,516 Speaker 2: stand still right and you understand vibrations like it's it's 201 00:12:22,116 --> 00:12:24,796 Speaker 2: it's from the same place. They thumping church just like 202 00:12:24,836 --> 00:12:26,636 Speaker 2: they thumping on this Millie Jackson. 203 00:12:27,836 --> 00:12:29,916 Speaker 5: Record. They crooning in church just like they're crooling on 204 00:12:29,996 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 5: the Millie Jackson record. All of that. 205 00:12:31,596 --> 00:12:35,116 Speaker 2: Understanding the narrative of life through the lyric of song 206 00:12:35,196 --> 00:12:38,196 Speaker 2: and through the thump of our foot and hip bone 207 00:12:38,316 --> 00:12:46,436 Speaker 2: and the conditions in which people live and then create in. 208 00:12:46,556 --> 00:12:50,676 Speaker 5: Spite of those conditions is it's always. 209 00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:53,596 Speaker 2: It's fascinating me and it plays out through the work. 210 00:12:54,156 --> 00:12:57,356 Speaker 2: So then growing up with that ass an influence, I 211 00:12:57,556 --> 00:12:59,236 Speaker 2: just bring more of that. I'm just bringing I'm just 212 00:12:59,316 --> 00:13:03,316 Speaker 2: continuing that conversation. Martie Gaines is definitely definitely an influence 213 00:13:03,356 --> 00:13:07,036 Speaker 2: as far as music it's concerned Gill Scott Hearing, because 214 00:13:07,156 --> 00:13:10,556 Speaker 2: Gill Scot Hearing taught me the possibility of that the 215 00:13:10,716 --> 00:13:12,796 Speaker 2: song still houses a poem. 216 00:13:13,716 --> 00:13:16,436 Speaker 3: The songs the poem that's really powerfully said. 217 00:13:16,516 --> 00:13:16,716 Speaker 4: Yeah. 218 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:23,516 Speaker 2: Rights for the fact that you could be you know, 219 00:13:23,636 --> 00:13:25,476 Speaker 2: what is a song with without bravery? 220 00:13:26,436 --> 00:13:30,196 Speaker 5: House doesn't stand without courage, you know. So that's what 221 00:13:30,316 --> 00:13:31,156 Speaker 5: I need, that's what. 222 00:13:33,156 --> 00:13:36,316 Speaker 3: Falls in well well, Avery, I just want to say, 223 00:13:36,596 --> 00:13:40,396 Speaker 3: like hearing all those influences certainly show up in your music. 224 00:13:40,876 --> 00:13:44,796 Speaker 3: And I think, you know, for us and for our listeners, uh, 225 00:13:45,076 --> 00:13:47,196 Speaker 3: for the fans of some of my best friends are 226 00:13:47,276 --> 00:13:50,356 Speaker 3: we have benefited so much from all those influences in 227 00:13:50,396 --> 00:13:53,556 Speaker 3: the way that you have captured the sacred in the secular. So, uh, 228 00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:56,756 Speaker 3: we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, 229 00:13:56,796 --> 00:13:59,276 Speaker 3: we're going to talk a bit more about your artistry. 230 00:13:59,996 --> 00:14:15,116 Speaker 4: We'll be right back. We are back on some of 231 00:14:15,236 --> 00:14:19,396 Speaker 4: my best friends with the amazing Avery Are Young. Avery, 232 00:14:19,596 --> 00:14:22,076 Speaker 4: I'm thinking about I'm thinking about the first time we met, 233 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:26,316 Speaker 4: which was a bunch of years ago, and it was 234 00:14:26,836 --> 00:14:31,316 Speaker 4: at an art opening in Chicago, and you were doing 235 00:14:31,476 --> 00:14:34,516 Speaker 4: visual art at that time, a sculpture and you were 236 00:14:34,556 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 4: presenting this sculpture which was a noose, an actual noose, 237 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:42,156 Speaker 4: and at the bottom of it were skittles sort of 238 00:14:42,196 --> 00:14:43,036 Speaker 4: scattered around it. 239 00:14:43,636 --> 00:14:44,836 Speaker 5: Yes, yes, yes. 240 00:14:45,476 --> 00:14:52,156 Speaker 2: That was my first solo exhibition, and so a lot 241 00:14:52,236 --> 00:14:58,036 Speaker 2: of the visual text work was in relationship to it. 242 00:14:58,116 --> 00:15:01,036 Speaker 2: At the time, what was the murder in the trial 243 00:15:01,516 --> 00:15:06,596 Speaker 2: of trayvon Martin. I just really wanted to think about 244 00:15:06,836 --> 00:15:10,716 Speaker 2: the materials, just the material the caves did a lot 245 00:15:10,796 --> 00:15:13,596 Speaker 2: of studying about what was going on and then try 246 00:15:13,676 --> 00:15:17,636 Speaker 2: to implement that ended the materiars used inside. 247 00:15:17,156 --> 00:15:17,356 Speaker 7: Of the. 248 00:15:19,716 --> 00:15:23,516 Speaker 4: And trayvon Martin as he was walking in his in 249 00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:25,956 Speaker 4: his neighborhood, he had gone to the store to buy skittles. 250 00:15:26,556 --> 00:15:28,476 Speaker 5: Yes, yes, skittles. 251 00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:32,676 Speaker 4: So in your exhibit you see this noose and it's 252 00:15:32,756 --> 00:15:37,076 Speaker 4: like ten feet off the ground, and it's made out 253 00:15:37,156 --> 00:15:40,476 Speaker 4: of blue jeans, like torn up blue jeans, the entire noose, 254 00:15:40,916 --> 00:15:43,156 Speaker 4: and it extends on one end all the way to 255 00:15:43,236 --> 00:15:47,316 Speaker 4: the floor where it meets empty bags of skittles, and 256 00:15:47,396 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 4: then the candy skittles spread out all on the floor. 257 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:53,236 Speaker 4: Can you can you tell us you know how you 258 00:15:53,396 --> 00:15:55,396 Speaker 4: made this, like you're you're thinking behind it. 259 00:15:55,836 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 5: So we took I took the. 260 00:16:01,596 --> 00:16:05,236 Speaker 2: Jeans and I kind of ripped them up, and then 261 00:16:05,436 --> 00:16:07,836 Speaker 2: my friend Chuld had sold them to so they were 262 00:16:07,916 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 2: like this one long piece, and then we soaked it and. 263 00:16:13,676 --> 00:16:16,916 Speaker 5: Arizona Arizona iced teas and all kinds. 264 00:16:17,116 --> 00:16:19,836 Speaker 2: I just stuck a bunch of it, soaked them in 265 00:16:19,996 --> 00:16:22,836 Speaker 2: that for a couple of days, and then once we 266 00:16:22,996 --> 00:16:25,276 Speaker 2: got the once that got it, dried it for a 267 00:16:25,396 --> 00:16:26,916 Speaker 2: minute and then began. 268 00:16:26,716 --> 00:16:29,076 Speaker 5: To do the work of. 269 00:16:31,796 --> 00:16:34,316 Speaker 2: Twisted it so that it would look like a rope 270 00:16:34,476 --> 00:16:37,276 Speaker 2: and what the sugar and I mean the sugar in 271 00:16:37,476 --> 00:16:43,756 Speaker 2: the drinks would help bind, yes, yes, and we're singing 272 00:16:43,796 --> 00:16:47,556 Speaker 2: that that would happen, and like it worked, and I 273 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:51,996 Speaker 2: was like, and then we went about the business of 274 00:16:52,476 --> 00:16:55,796 Speaker 2: time the noose and I remember like that day every 275 00:16:55,836 --> 00:16:58,716 Speaker 2: other day it was. It was it was really hard 276 00:16:59,356 --> 00:17:02,556 Speaker 2: that I cut off. I cut off the lights and 277 00:17:02,716 --> 00:17:05,636 Speaker 2: I kept listening to a strange fruit over and over, 278 00:17:06,036 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 2: and I kept listening, and so I listened to three 279 00:17:07,916 --> 00:17:14,156 Speaker 2: different versions replay, and that was the Howard Day's version, 280 00:17:15,156 --> 00:17:20,196 Speaker 2: and it was this and Mimes Simon's version and Cassandra 281 00:17:20,236 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 2: Wilson's version, and I just listened to those in a 282 00:17:25,156 --> 00:17:29,476 Speaker 2: loop and kind of took my time to to. 283 00:17:32,076 --> 00:17:32,836 Speaker 5: Tad News and I. 284 00:17:32,876 --> 00:17:37,236 Speaker 4: Could avery, yeah, I mean this idea that you captured 285 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:40,596 Speaker 4: of Trayvon Martin also being lynched, and this is my 286 00:17:40,676 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 4: first introduction to you, and I'm seeing this and this 287 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:46,716 Speaker 4: powerful visual art, and then I'm thinking about, well, who 288 00:17:46,836 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 4: is this guy? What what is his artistry? And then 289 00:17:49,316 --> 00:17:55,996 Speaker 4: that same night you performed Resurrect Fred, which is really 290 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 4: performance art. It's a song and more than that, and 291 00:17:59,076 --> 00:18:02,116 Speaker 4: I was like, Oh, this guy isn't just a visual artist. 292 00:18:02,636 --> 00:18:05,836 Speaker 4: He is this you know, multi varied performance artist. Like 293 00:18:05,916 --> 00:18:08,436 Speaker 4: there's so much there's something else going on here. And 294 00:18:08,636 --> 00:18:13,236 Speaker 4: so this Resurrect Fred is about Fred Hampton, who is 295 00:18:13,316 --> 00:18:16,636 Speaker 4: the twenty one year old Black panther leader who was 296 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:20,396 Speaker 4: murdered by police in nineteen sixty nine. He was sleeping 297 00:18:20,436 --> 00:18:22,316 Speaker 4: in his home in the early morning and they raided 298 00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:27,276 Speaker 4: and they murder him. And you know, maybe we could 299 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:28,796 Speaker 4: just talk about that piece for a moment. What does 300 00:18:28,836 --> 00:18:30,436 Speaker 4: it mean to resurrect Fred? 301 00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:36,076 Speaker 2: Here we go back to this gospel and attachment, this 302 00:18:36,196 --> 00:18:40,356 Speaker 2: attachment to the church. A lot of what influences, especially 303 00:18:40,396 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 2: as a performance artist, is preaching and a certain and 304 00:18:44,756 --> 00:18:48,596 Speaker 2: seeing how a person with certain cadence and power and 305 00:18:48,716 --> 00:18:55,196 Speaker 2: confidence and knowledge of a word inscripture and history presents 306 00:18:55,836 --> 00:18:59,596 Speaker 2: this literature which is what you know, a Bible was 307 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:04,036 Speaker 2: full of poems. Fred is definitely from rooted in the 308 00:19:04,036 --> 00:19:08,916 Speaker 2: scripture of the Resuscitation of Lazarus, who at the time, 309 00:19:09,276 --> 00:19:12,436 Speaker 2: there's a there's a description in the Bible says Jesus 310 00:19:12,556 --> 00:19:13,796 Speaker 2: wept right and it's kind of the. 311 00:19:13,836 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 5: Only noted recording of the weeping. 312 00:19:18,356 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 2: But always like why, you know, because he was he 313 00:19:22,156 --> 00:19:25,556 Speaker 2: had lost a good friend, and the community lost a 314 00:19:25,716 --> 00:19:29,636 Speaker 2: very good friend and ally and advocate them when they 315 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:33,236 Speaker 2: lost Chairman Fred and all the others got lost. That 316 00:19:33,436 --> 00:19:37,236 Speaker 2: was within that within that time, we're talking about very 317 00:19:37,756 --> 00:19:42,036 Speaker 2: violent political time in American history, and Chairman Fred was 318 00:19:42,076 --> 00:19:45,956 Speaker 2: definitely not the only person who was slain in this time. 319 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:48,996 Speaker 2: But the idea at the end of the day that 320 00:19:49,196 --> 00:19:52,036 Speaker 2: was just these young black people that wanted better for 321 00:19:52,156 --> 00:19:52,756 Speaker 2: their community. 322 00:19:53,316 --> 00:19:55,956 Speaker 5: You know, we talked about we talked about the guns and. 323 00:19:56,556 --> 00:20:00,116 Speaker 2: And them protected community with artillery, but they were also 324 00:20:00,276 --> 00:20:04,276 Speaker 2: waking up in the morning, fixing breakfast and serving it 325 00:20:04,356 --> 00:20:08,516 Speaker 2: to the panthers, and they be in the Black Panthers. 326 00:20:08,756 --> 00:20:13,716 Speaker 5: So song resurrect Fred is let's let's let's get that together. 327 00:20:13,876 --> 00:20:16,116 Speaker 5: So that's what I wane when I'm saying resurrect Fred. 328 00:20:16,956 --> 00:20:20,476 Speaker 2: Yes, that's it's about the resurrection of that work, that 329 00:20:20,676 --> 00:20:23,516 Speaker 2: work that is happening or what was happening in the 330 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:28,116 Speaker 2: communities with the Black Panthers, and that's how that that's 331 00:20:28,156 --> 00:20:29,676 Speaker 2: how they comes about coming. 332 00:20:29,956 --> 00:20:33,316 Speaker 3: So Avery, I didn't meet you that way, and and 333 00:20:33,476 --> 00:20:36,156 Speaker 3: this is my first time really getting to know you 334 00:20:36,276 --> 00:20:39,716 Speaker 3: in this personal way, and I'm just really grateful for 335 00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:43,476 Speaker 3: this opportunity. But I did get a chance to see 336 00:20:44,076 --> 00:20:50,716 Speaker 3: Emmett till the Remix, which is a video performance that 337 00:20:51,116 --> 00:20:54,676 Speaker 3: that that you've done, and I mean it's like it's 338 00:20:54,756 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 3: incredible and in a way that speaks directly to what 339 00:20:59,476 --> 00:21:04,356 Speaker 3: you describe with resurrect Fred, meaning that here is this 340 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:09,836 Speaker 3: this young man who's killed in uh mississipp be Uh. 341 00:21:10,236 --> 00:21:14,836 Speaker 3: His killing inspires an entire generation of civil rights activists, 342 00:21:15,316 --> 00:21:17,636 Speaker 3: and you tell the entire story of what happened to 343 00:21:17,756 --> 00:21:19,516 Speaker 3: him in this performance. 344 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:20,196 Speaker 1: Uh. 345 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:28,996 Speaker 3: You you you call back to actually the presence of 346 00:21:29,076 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 3: the community at the time that they bear witness and 347 00:21:34,556 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 3: it's really powerful to see in the video. But could 348 00:21:38,276 --> 00:21:41,556 Speaker 3: you could you set the context for what you do 349 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:44,996 Speaker 3: in I Matilda Remix by singing a little bit. 350 00:21:45,396 --> 00:21:49,676 Speaker 4: Of it for us, man, we are getting our money's 351 00:21:49,676 --> 00:21:54,796 Speaker 4: worth there, man, ohn is such an it is such 352 00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:55,316 Speaker 4: a space. 353 00:21:56,716 --> 00:21:57,636 Speaker 5: And again. 354 00:22:01,716 --> 00:22:02,556 Speaker 4: We are you there. 355 00:22:05,596 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 5: When they did what they did to that ball? 356 00:22:15,516 --> 00:22:17,276 Speaker 8: Where there. 357 00:22:21,436 --> 00:22:29,156 Speaker 5: When they did what they did to that ball? Were 358 00:22:29,316 --> 00:22:33,996 Speaker 5: you there when they snatched the mile? It was her 359 00:22:34,116 --> 00:22:42,996 Speaker 5: uncle's house? Well you're there, they snatched the mile to 360 00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:44,076 Speaker 5: your uncle's high? 361 00:22:48,996 --> 00:22:49,796 Speaker 2: Is this him? 362 00:22:50,316 --> 00:22:50,956 Speaker 1: Is this skill? 363 00:22:52,676 --> 00:22:52,796 Speaker 3: Is it? 364 00:22:55,916 --> 00:22:56,676 Speaker 2: Is this him? 365 00:22:56,956 --> 00:22:58,676 Speaker 4: Is this skim missage? 366 00:23:02,356 --> 00:23:03,036 Speaker 2: Is this shame? 367 00:23:03,276 --> 00:23:03,516 Speaker 4: Is this. 368 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:05,916 Speaker 8: Hum? 369 00:23:07,156 --> 00:23:08,956 Speaker 5: Whoa care? 370 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:15,956 Speaker 3: Is this? 371 00:23:20,636 --> 00:23:20,836 Speaker 4: Yeah? 372 00:23:20,916 --> 00:23:21,076 Speaker 1: Man? 373 00:23:21,196 --> 00:23:24,916 Speaker 4: Thank you that that that that were you there? That 374 00:23:25,036 --> 00:23:29,156 Speaker 4: you part like you're telling the story and it's bearing witness, 375 00:23:29,596 --> 00:23:33,636 Speaker 4: but it also feels like an accusation, like you were 376 00:23:33,676 --> 00:23:36,996 Speaker 4: you there? Tell us about that? Like that you're you're 377 00:23:37,036 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 4: putting a burden on us too. 378 00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:42,436 Speaker 5: Yeah, that particular peace is. 379 00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:49,676 Speaker 2: Flipping around a hem or spiritual about the crucifixion of 380 00:23:49,916 --> 00:23:52,196 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. Where you're there when they crucify the Lord. 381 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:55,396 Speaker 2: Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble where you're there 382 00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 2: when they crucified the Lord? And again I actually were 383 00:23:58,676 --> 00:23:59,756 Speaker 2: you there to be a witness? 384 00:24:00,236 --> 00:24:00,836 Speaker 4: You know this? 385 00:24:01,756 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 5: It's placing it, it's. 386 00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:07,236 Speaker 2: Doing this thing that Gwyndolan Brooks does and we real 387 00:24:07,316 --> 00:24:11,436 Speaker 2: coul right, the womans and they real cool. They left school. 388 00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:16,236 Speaker 2: And by using the language we it implicates any and 389 00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:19,316 Speaker 2: everybody that reads it. So you're one of the seven. 390 00:24:20,116 --> 00:24:22,396 Speaker 2: You're one of the seven at the goal of the shovel, right, 391 00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 2: And so using that language where you there, even if 392 00:24:26,276 --> 00:24:30,916 Speaker 2: you weren't born in a time right, you get through, 393 00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:33,796 Speaker 2: You get through this journey, where you get through this language, 394 00:24:34,116 --> 00:24:37,756 Speaker 2: bear witness to this murder. And the sad part of 395 00:24:37,876 --> 00:24:42,876 Speaker 2: it is just like when you hear I've talked about 396 00:24:42,916 --> 00:24:49,156 Speaker 2: it and Mantel Trayvon Martin. You know, because you keep 397 00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:55,196 Speaker 2: seeing this level of racial terrorism repeated and repeated us. 398 00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:57,436 Speaker 2: It gets repeated throughout the song. 399 00:24:57,916 --> 00:25:00,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, Avery, I just have to say, for folks who 400 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:03,436 Speaker 3: haven't seen this video, which we will, we will most 401 00:25:03,436 --> 00:25:07,796 Speaker 3: certainly link to for the show, that everything you've been 402 00:25:07,876 --> 00:25:10,796 Speaker 3: describing in terms of like the mashup of the past. 403 00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:13,316 Speaker 3: You've talked about biblical times, you're talking about the time 404 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:16,316 Speaker 3: of Jesus' crucifixion, You've talked about the time of the 405 00:25:16,316 --> 00:25:19,516 Speaker 3: civil rights movement. And in this video you stand alone 406 00:25:19,596 --> 00:25:22,076 Speaker 3: first in a church as a song begins, just as 407 00:25:22,156 --> 00:25:25,716 Speaker 3: you started here singing today and yet all of a sudden, 408 00:25:26,116 --> 00:25:29,876 Speaker 3: the scenery changes and it shifts from a church with 409 00:25:30,036 --> 00:25:32,516 Speaker 3: you as a single person singing out loud in a 410 00:25:32,596 --> 00:25:36,876 Speaker 3: kind of plaintiff cry, to a civil rights march, and 411 00:25:36,916 --> 00:25:39,036 Speaker 3: they're signed. You're surrounded by people with I Am a 412 00:25:39,156 --> 00:25:41,996 Speaker 3: man signs, and then the scene shifts again and you're 413 00:25:41,996 --> 00:25:45,836 Speaker 3: at a Black Lives Matter rally. And what comes through 414 00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:51,676 Speaker 3: in this video performance is precisely your call to recognize 415 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:55,956 Speaker 3: the past in the present and the need as you 416 00:25:56,036 --> 00:25:57,676 Speaker 3: say at the end of this song, when you call 417 00:25:57,756 --> 00:26:01,156 Speaker 3: out who's gonna live, Who's gonna live? Who's gonna live 418 00:26:01,236 --> 00:26:03,636 Speaker 3: for Emmet, which is to say, who's gonna live today 419 00:26:03,796 --> 00:26:07,236 Speaker 3: for the people who continue to suffer from racism in America? 420 00:26:07,636 --> 00:26:09,596 Speaker 3: It's just so powerful And who's to fight for? 421 00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:13,316 Speaker 2: That's one of the lines too, celebrating the life of 422 00:26:13,396 --> 00:26:17,116 Speaker 2: a person who is no longer with us, and then 423 00:26:17,196 --> 00:26:20,396 Speaker 2: celebrating my life of a person who still is. The 424 00:26:20,556 --> 00:26:24,556 Speaker 2: idea that length of that particular line, Who's going to 425 00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:27,596 Speaker 2: live is what you do in this body that will 426 00:26:27,676 --> 00:26:31,516 Speaker 2: continue to tell the continue to tell the story of 427 00:26:31,716 --> 00:26:34,556 Speaker 2: this person who couldn't And that's just the thing we 428 00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:38,516 Speaker 2: feel with a lot of people feel anger. It gives 429 00:26:38,596 --> 00:26:43,636 Speaker 2: us questions and give the particular that image Til like 430 00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:48,076 Speaker 2: being said, sparked a whole and inspired a whole level 431 00:26:48,516 --> 00:26:53,236 Speaker 2: of civil rights movement. Rosa Parks has noted to say 432 00:26:53,276 --> 00:26:56,196 Speaker 2: that that's who she was thinking of actually stay in 433 00:26:56,356 --> 00:26:58,756 Speaker 2: her seat on the bus. 434 00:26:59,916 --> 00:27:01,996 Speaker 5: Muhammad Ali talked. 435 00:27:01,756 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 2: About learning about Immin Tell and seeing the image in 436 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:07,556 Speaker 2: it on the on the front page of a newspaper 437 00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:12,316 Speaker 2: and all all of these things that have that particular 438 00:27:12,676 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 2: death moves people to so many different motions and then 439 00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:18,676 Speaker 2: they get to that last line, but who's gonna leave? 440 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:22,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, such a such a powerful way to keep 441 00:27:23,356 --> 00:27:27,876 Speaker 3: the memory of Emmettel present in the ongoing struggle for 442 00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:30,156 Speaker 3: a new generation of young people who have been fighting 443 00:27:30,196 --> 00:27:34,156 Speaker 3: against this problem. We're gonna take another break, and when 444 00:27:34,236 --> 00:27:37,836 Speaker 3: we come back, we're gonna talk about you as poet laureate. 445 00:27:37,956 --> 00:27:55,636 Speaker 4: We'll be right back, man, Avery, We are back on 446 00:27:56,156 --> 00:27:58,036 Speaker 4: some of my best friends. I thank you so much. 447 00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:02,316 Speaker 4: This has been just incredible and Khalil, I have had 448 00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:05,676 Speaker 4: the great fortune of seeing Avery performing person, and it 449 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:09,036 Speaker 4: is this mix of all these things. It's visual our 450 00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:15,396 Speaker 4: it's dance, it's preaching, it's spoken word, it's poetry. Mostly 451 00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:17,716 Speaker 4: I'm you know, it's off in participatory and I'm off 452 00:28:17,756 --> 00:28:20,556 Speaker 4: in there and I'm thinking, don't pick me, don't pick me. 453 00:28:20,756 --> 00:28:22,596 Speaker 3: No, no, no no, You're like you're like you're like 454 00:28:24,076 --> 00:28:24,636 Speaker 3: your leg star. 455 00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:30,796 Speaker 4: You can't. Before I'm told, I was like, thank god 456 00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:32,436 Speaker 4: you didn't pull me into the center. 457 00:28:35,596 --> 00:28:36,636 Speaker 5: Called up to the podium. 458 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:40,276 Speaker 4: Yes, so Avery, you know, we've we've heard your poetry 459 00:28:40,356 --> 00:28:45,276 Speaker 4: today in song. But you're you're now the poet Laureate 460 00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:49,156 Speaker 4: of Chicago, and let's talk about that. 461 00:28:49,636 --> 00:28:50,036 Speaker 7: What is that? 462 00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:52,156 Speaker 4: What does that job entail? What have you been doing 463 00:28:52,236 --> 00:28:53,396 Speaker 4: for these last several weeks. 464 00:28:55,636 --> 00:28:59,356 Speaker 2: I've been doing a lot of readings at this point, 465 00:28:59,476 --> 00:29:01,436 Speaker 2: but I plan to do a lot of community building 466 00:29:01,836 --> 00:29:09,316 Speaker 2: so and get calls, Hey, you've been you, You've been like, 467 00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:10,596 Speaker 2: it's gonna be you. 468 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:12,116 Speaker 5: It's like all. 469 00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:14,756 Speaker 4: Smack is like a bad signal, like a poetry. 470 00:29:17,276 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 2: It was hilarious because I had just had lunch with 471 00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:21,916 Speaker 2: Eve you and it was like my niece and I 472 00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:26,556 Speaker 2: was telling her friends, so yes, and I was telling Eve, 473 00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:29,476 Speaker 2: you know, I think it's gonna be you, like I 474 00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:31,876 Speaker 2: dominated you, and he was like no. 475 00:29:32,036 --> 00:29:36,556 Speaker 4: I was talking to Jamila, Sila would Tomila Wood is 476 00:29:36,596 --> 00:29:39,876 Speaker 4: another amazing Chicago musician and artists. 477 00:29:39,556 --> 00:29:43,156 Speaker 2: And poet right and they both like these young women 478 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:46,676 Speaker 2: who you know, with the wrestle of a generation of 479 00:29:46,796 --> 00:29:49,756 Speaker 2: artists in Chicago, who I've mentored and talked and like 480 00:29:49,876 --> 00:29:55,556 Speaker 2: I said, and just in community with. But I got 481 00:29:55,636 --> 00:29:59,396 Speaker 2: the news and I was like really like excited and honored, 482 00:29:59,596 --> 00:30:05,316 Speaker 2: and like the coolest part is be being the innamural one. 483 00:30:05,516 --> 00:30:08,036 Speaker 2: I get to figure it out, you know, and really 484 00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:13,036 Speaker 2: set up shop for those who who will follow as 485 00:30:13,196 --> 00:30:15,716 Speaker 2: poet lauriate. And like I said right now, a lot 486 00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:19,836 Speaker 2: of it has really been reading the inaugurate, the inauguration, 487 00:30:21,116 --> 00:30:25,716 Speaker 2: the juneteen celebration. I just did the l A A conference, 488 00:30:25,756 --> 00:30:28,716 Speaker 2: American Library Association conference. So a lot of it has been, 489 00:30:29,276 --> 00:30:34,876 Speaker 2: you know, reading in my capacity support laureate. But a 490 00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:36,996 Speaker 2: lot of the work would be with just build a 491 00:30:37,036 --> 00:30:40,116 Speaker 2: community and get in Chicago to write poems together and things. 492 00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:40,476 Speaker 5: Of that nature. 493 00:30:40,796 --> 00:30:45,356 Speaker 4: You you evoked Gwendolyn Brooks earlier and when we were 494 00:30:45,436 --> 00:30:50,356 Speaker 4: in like middle school, Uh, she was the Illinois Poet laureate. Yes, 495 00:30:50,716 --> 00:30:53,596 Speaker 4: and I just remember what it meant to have her 496 00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:55,876 Speaker 4: presence being around that she would like show up at 497 00:30:55,876 --> 00:30:57,436 Speaker 4: the school and people talked about it, and she was 498 00:30:57,476 --> 00:31:01,236 Speaker 4: somebody that that was you saw and that her poems 499 00:31:01,276 --> 00:31:05,516 Speaker 4: you cited. We real cool. They felt accessible, they felt 500 00:31:05,636 --> 00:31:09,236 Speaker 4: like they were about the city. She's in Africa, an 501 00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:11,956 Speaker 4: American woman, she was, she was older, she felt like 502 00:31:12,236 --> 00:31:15,516 Speaker 4: an ant to a lot of people. And yeah, and 503 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:21,516 Speaker 4: I just you know that idea. So that's a kind 504 00:31:21,516 --> 00:31:21,796 Speaker 4: of rule. 505 00:31:22,196 --> 00:31:24,796 Speaker 2: I get to go to schools and you know, get 506 00:31:24,836 --> 00:31:26,516 Speaker 2: to go to schools, like I said, and I really 507 00:31:26,556 --> 00:31:28,596 Speaker 2: want to get students together to write with each other, 508 00:31:28,836 --> 00:31:32,636 Speaker 2: you know, and write and write these massive or epic 509 00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:36,596 Speaker 2: poems with each other, you know, and not just be 510 00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:38,516 Speaker 2: about me coming to the school and saying, hey, I'm 511 00:31:38,556 --> 00:31:41,356 Speaker 2: every young and I'm the Chicago Poet Laureate, but really 512 00:31:41,396 --> 00:31:45,436 Speaker 2: building community ways in which so many other organizations who 513 00:31:45,436 --> 00:31:48,356 Speaker 2: I've worked with in the past is done. So Bama 514 00:31:48,396 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 2: Gwenland definitely has set the set, the tone and precedent 515 00:31:53,356 --> 00:31:55,996 Speaker 2: of how I would believe to kind of show up 516 00:31:56,036 --> 00:32:01,076 Speaker 2: and be present during my tenure as laureate. But I 517 00:32:01,156 --> 00:32:03,676 Speaker 2: also understand that I have to take I have I 518 00:32:03,796 --> 00:32:07,116 Speaker 2: have to also craft it to be my own so 519 00:32:07,196 --> 00:32:11,676 Speaker 2: that when you're people had this memory decades from now, 520 00:32:11,876 --> 00:32:18,876 Speaker 2: I remember, well, uncle, yes, and be the thing and 521 00:32:18,996 --> 00:32:21,316 Speaker 2: all of your stuff, and people will talk about me 522 00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:23,516 Speaker 2: the way they talk about her. 523 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:24,116 Speaker 6: You know. 524 00:32:24,756 --> 00:32:27,036 Speaker 3: Well, so so you have this, you have this book 525 00:32:27,076 --> 00:32:31,996 Speaker 3: of poetry called neck Bone, and you you subtitle it 526 00:32:32,316 --> 00:32:37,356 Speaker 3: visual Versus. So so let's talk about about that, because clearly, 527 00:32:37,476 --> 00:32:41,276 Speaker 3: as a multidisciplinary artist, you cannot keep your brain working 528 00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:41,996 Speaker 3: on one track. 529 00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:51,836 Speaker 5: So it's full up up in the brain between the eyes. 530 00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:55,356 Speaker 5: I'm like, oh, but that was even the. 531 00:32:55,436 --> 00:33:00,156 Speaker 2: Point, so I think when well, for me, mm hmm, 532 00:33:00,476 --> 00:33:03,516 Speaker 2: the the poem that you see on the page is 533 00:33:03,716 --> 00:33:05,236 Speaker 2: extracted language. 534 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:08,116 Speaker 5: It's language that you pick from. 535 00:33:08,396 --> 00:33:11,396 Speaker 2: All the words and all the imagery that's going on 536 00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:16,116 Speaker 2: in your brain and inside your imagination. I keep, I 537 00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:18,596 Speaker 2: keep trying to talk about this and not sound like 538 00:33:18,756 --> 00:33:24,076 Speaker 2: it's just voodoo. Yes, it's just like that is that 539 00:33:24,276 --> 00:33:29,716 Speaker 2: is with intent. But so that the idea of then 540 00:33:29,996 --> 00:33:33,236 Speaker 2: just being transparent of how I see a poem as 541 00:33:33,276 --> 00:33:37,436 Speaker 2: opposed to extracting the language from what I see, is 542 00:33:37,516 --> 00:33:42,276 Speaker 2: why how visual visual versus come. 543 00:33:42,356 --> 00:33:44,276 Speaker 5: I'm a little just showing what I see. 544 00:33:44,716 --> 00:33:48,836 Speaker 4: M favery, You're giving us like a view into how 545 00:33:48,916 --> 00:33:50,996 Speaker 4: your mind is working. Which yeah, I think I think 546 00:33:51,036 --> 00:33:54,796 Speaker 4: these poems do, which is you're having a conversation, often 547 00:33:54,916 --> 00:33:57,676 Speaker 4: with received images, like with pop culture, of things that 548 00:33:57,716 --> 00:34:00,596 Speaker 4: are important to you. And so there's like this triangulation 549 00:34:00,756 --> 00:34:03,556 Speaker 4: that's going on, and then it's sort of visual for you, 550 00:34:04,116 --> 00:34:05,716 Speaker 4: and then it's being turned into words. 551 00:34:06,236 --> 00:34:08,956 Speaker 3: But it's also can I just say it's also the 552 00:34:09,156 --> 00:34:14,476 Speaker 3: book has seventy colorful colored illustrations, So this isn't you're 553 00:34:14,516 --> 00:34:19,756 Speaker 3: not speaking purely in attraction. You actually have drawn in 554 00:34:19,876 --> 00:34:23,036 Speaker 3: the book. You've used your artistic visual talent to actually 555 00:34:23,116 --> 00:34:25,556 Speaker 3: put in the book illustrations in a book of poetry, 556 00:34:25,596 --> 00:34:28,916 Speaker 3: which is unusual for most for most poets, and. 557 00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:33,036 Speaker 4: The words are often the text is often part of 558 00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:36,596 Speaker 4: like a painting or a drawing. I want to I 559 00:34:36,676 --> 00:34:39,036 Speaker 4: want to ask you a question about your work, and 560 00:34:40,516 --> 00:34:43,116 Speaker 4: both your work is poet laureate of Chicago, and really 561 00:34:43,196 --> 00:34:47,796 Speaker 4: all you're at work in a way you're reimagining Chicago 562 00:34:48,116 --> 00:34:50,556 Speaker 4: and telling a Chicago story. And I want to ask 563 00:34:50,596 --> 00:34:53,396 Speaker 4: you that, like, what is the story of Chicago that 564 00:34:53,476 --> 00:34:56,676 Speaker 4: you're trying to change and reinterpret and reinvent. 565 00:34:57,996 --> 00:35:02,236 Speaker 2: I don't necessarily I'm reinventing or reimagine in Chicago. I 566 00:35:02,316 --> 00:35:06,036 Speaker 2: think I present the Chicago that I experience, Okay, and 567 00:35:06,156 --> 00:35:08,276 Speaker 2: I do experience Chicago a lot of times through my 568 00:35:08,356 --> 00:35:12,236 Speaker 2: imagination or in the context of others imagination, because I'm 569 00:35:12,276 --> 00:35:16,916 Speaker 2: part of the creative community. Right when you hear about 570 00:35:16,996 --> 00:35:19,996 Speaker 2: Chicago through the media and then the quote unquote the news, 571 00:35:20,436 --> 00:35:24,476 Speaker 2: you see, you see the Chicago that I just don't experience, right, 572 00:35:25,356 --> 00:35:27,356 Speaker 2: And not that I don't realize that it's there, because 573 00:35:27,356 --> 00:35:29,716 Speaker 2: again with the babies I've talked, I've been, I've been 574 00:35:29,796 --> 00:35:33,116 Speaker 2: sitting there, I've sung at funerals of students I had 575 00:35:33,236 --> 00:35:37,556 Speaker 2: talked two weeks prior, you know, so that I understand 576 00:35:37,636 --> 00:35:43,116 Speaker 2: and totally am aware of the whatever the news says 577 00:35:43,156 --> 00:35:48,836 Speaker 2: about Chicago, which is basically the violence, in the in 578 00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:52,476 Speaker 2: the weather. That's wacky, wacky and quacky, you know. But 579 00:35:52,556 --> 00:35:56,116 Speaker 2: I also get to experience people in community, one another, 580 00:35:56,276 --> 00:35:57,356 Speaker 2: the extended family. 581 00:35:57,436 --> 00:36:00,636 Speaker 5: When I say Eve and Jamila like my nieces, they 582 00:36:00,716 --> 00:36:02,076 Speaker 5: are truly like my nieces. 583 00:36:02,116 --> 00:36:04,876 Speaker 2: And then we ain't have no we have no biological 584 00:36:05,356 --> 00:36:08,916 Speaker 2: connection to each other, but the extension and the extension 585 00:36:08,956 --> 00:36:12,596 Speaker 2: of family is you know, I have a very diverse 586 00:36:12,876 --> 00:36:16,756 Speaker 2: dinner table, you know. And again as we treated and 587 00:36:16,796 --> 00:36:19,516 Speaker 2: love each other's family. So I'm trying to present the 588 00:36:19,876 --> 00:36:24,276 Speaker 2: Chicago that I get. But the work is always or 589 00:36:24,356 --> 00:36:26,436 Speaker 2: why not. The work is really in the imagination. 590 00:36:26,636 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 5: When I tell students write what you know I was, 591 00:36:30,876 --> 00:36:34,116 Speaker 5: when they always well, right, what you know? Right right? 592 00:36:34,196 --> 00:36:34,476 Speaker 1: What you know? 593 00:36:34,636 --> 00:36:36,876 Speaker 5: And you know a thing because you've. 594 00:36:36,836 --> 00:36:42,916 Speaker 2: Either experienced it, witnessed it, you know, you've researched it 595 00:36:43,636 --> 00:36:45,596 Speaker 2: to the point where you feel like you know it 596 00:36:45,796 --> 00:36:48,996 Speaker 2: enough to write about it, or the best space of all, 597 00:36:49,436 --> 00:36:52,076 Speaker 2: it's just to imagine it, because when you imagine it, 598 00:36:52,156 --> 00:36:54,956 Speaker 2: can't nobody tell you they had yours? 599 00:36:59,156 --> 00:36:59,716 Speaker 4: Does it did? 600 00:36:59,756 --> 00:37:02,716 Speaker 5: Because I had this way, I said, and so that is, 601 00:37:02,996 --> 00:37:03,156 Speaker 5: you know. 602 00:37:03,316 --> 00:37:07,796 Speaker 2: That's what I tell That's really both boss situation, that's 603 00:37:07,916 --> 00:37:11,876 Speaker 2: to your imagination. You can implement the things you researched 604 00:37:12,516 --> 00:37:14,676 Speaker 2: and the things in which you know, and the things 605 00:37:14,716 --> 00:37:19,116 Speaker 2: and what you experienced into the imagination. You're doing something 606 00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:23,196 Speaker 2: totally like beyond beyond you know. That's why I teach. 607 00:37:23,396 --> 00:37:27,836 Speaker 4: That's just why it's amazing to be inside your imagination, 608 00:37:27,956 --> 00:37:30,956 Speaker 4: even for this past, you know, even for this conversation. 609 00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:32,436 Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you. 610 00:37:33,076 --> 00:37:37,076 Speaker 3: Well listen, we've talked a lot about Chicago just now. 611 00:37:37,316 --> 00:37:40,916 Speaker 3: But some of my best friends are has taken Lil 612 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:45,516 Speaker 3: Lily International. We have listeners all over the world, so 613 00:37:45,876 --> 00:37:48,836 Speaker 3: we are just grateful to be on this journey with you. 614 00:37:49,796 --> 00:37:53,076 Speaker 3: You are certainly one of our best friends, and we 615 00:37:53,236 --> 00:37:55,356 Speaker 3: are so excited for what is to come for you 616 00:37:55,516 --> 00:37:58,876 Speaker 3: in the future. Thank you so much, Avery for joining 617 00:37:58,996 --> 00:38:01,236 Speaker 3: us today, for taking some time out and sharing your 618 00:38:01,356 --> 00:38:02,076 Speaker 3: artistry with us. 619 00:38:02,836 --> 00:38:03,196 Speaker 5: Thank you. 620 00:38:21,596 --> 00:38:26,916 Speaker 4: All right, Khalil, speaking of theme songs, this is our 621 00:38:27,076 --> 00:38:33,716 Speaker 4: last episode of the season. Yeah, and also for now 622 00:38:33,836 --> 00:38:35,676 Speaker 4: at least, our last episode with the show. 623 00:38:36,116 --> 00:38:44,716 Speaker 3: It's not goodbye, it's farewell. It has been an amazing journey, 624 00:38:46,116 --> 00:38:48,356 Speaker 3: at least for me. I don't know about you, but 625 00:38:48,436 --> 00:38:50,756 Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about the fact 626 00:38:50,836 --> 00:38:55,556 Speaker 3: that we have done this show as part of our 627 00:38:55,716 --> 00:38:58,916 Speaker 3: own relationship. Like, you know, we've done a lot of 628 00:38:58,996 --> 00:39:02,396 Speaker 3: things together over the years, and this show just fits 629 00:39:02,516 --> 00:39:05,796 Speaker 3: right in with that. Yeah, and we talked about so 630 00:39:05,916 --> 00:39:08,556 Speaker 3: many of those things. But I want to reminisce a 631 00:39:08,636 --> 00:39:12,076 Speaker 3: little bit, like you know, we had our first jobs together, 632 00:39:12,196 --> 00:39:15,836 Speaker 3: a computer store, a grocery store. You know, we played 633 00:39:15,916 --> 00:39:18,796 Speaker 3: tennis together. I learned how to play, you know, oftentimes 634 00:39:18,836 --> 00:39:22,236 Speaker 3: competing against you, and I was like thirteen years old, 635 00:39:22,356 --> 00:39:23,276 Speaker 3: fourteen years old. 636 00:39:24,196 --> 00:39:26,716 Speaker 4: I'm tearing up a little bit. And the thing, the 637 00:39:26,836 --> 00:39:29,636 Speaker 4: thing is, I also taught you how to host a podcast, 638 00:39:29,956 --> 00:39:33,516 Speaker 4: and I feel like I'm, you know, teaching you over 639 00:39:33,636 --> 00:39:36,556 Speaker 4: so many episodes. It's been that's been a beautiful thing. 640 00:39:36,836 --> 00:39:38,436 Speaker 3: Of course, of course I feel that way. 641 00:39:39,596 --> 00:39:39,756 Speaker 1: Well. 642 00:39:40,116 --> 00:39:43,596 Speaker 3: I also like memory lane, Like my first poker game 643 00:39:43,796 --> 00:39:47,076 Speaker 3: was at your house, My first shibot dinner, first time 644 00:39:47,156 --> 00:39:51,236 Speaker 3: I ever researched in a college library was because your 645 00:39:51,356 --> 00:39:53,836 Speaker 3: dad sent us there during a teacher strike when we 646 00:39:53,916 --> 00:39:55,596 Speaker 3: were fifteen to sixteen years old. 647 00:39:55,836 --> 00:39:58,196 Speaker 4: That's right, crycial decade I got. 648 00:39:58,396 --> 00:40:01,716 Speaker 3: I got my first high school girlfriends because of you 649 00:40:01,956 --> 00:40:05,276 Speaker 3: and your then high school sweetheart now wife, Daniel Ure 650 00:40:05,356 --> 00:40:08,876 Speaker 3: hooking you up, and we stood up in each other's 651 00:40:08,916 --> 00:40:12,156 Speaker 3: we weddings. We were there when our first borns came 652 00:40:12,236 --> 00:40:15,876 Speaker 3: into the world, not actually at the delivery table, but 653 00:40:16,076 --> 00:40:21,996 Speaker 3: like within forty eight hours. The first time I ever 654 00:40:22,156 --> 00:40:26,116 Speaker 3: rented a place with Stephanie at Martha's Vineyard without being 655 00:40:26,316 --> 00:40:29,396 Speaker 3: like with your parents or with my parents in this case, 656 00:40:29,476 --> 00:40:30,996 Speaker 3: guess who was there me? 657 00:40:31,716 --> 00:40:35,836 Speaker 4: That's right, you were there, because I don't remember any 658 00:40:35,876 --> 00:40:40,876 Speaker 4: of these things. Well, yes, you do, so this is 659 00:40:40,916 --> 00:40:41,996 Speaker 4: important to document it. 660 00:40:42,076 --> 00:40:44,356 Speaker 3: I love this well. I just think like in a 661 00:40:44,396 --> 00:40:47,356 Speaker 3: way thinking of retrospectively about what's gone on these last 662 00:40:47,396 --> 00:40:51,236 Speaker 3: two years, which represents now our thirty seventh year, and 663 00:40:51,316 --> 00:40:55,436 Speaker 3: a relationship has also been thinking about our friendship through 664 00:40:55,476 --> 00:40:56,116 Speaker 3: this podcast. 665 00:40:56,236 --> 00:41:01,156 Speaker 4: Yeah, actually doing this podcast together in this way and 666 00:41:01,396 --> 00:41:07,796 Speaker 4: working with you, it's like making meaning out of both 667 00:41:07,916 --> 00:41:12,236 Speaker 4: our relationship and our lives and the things we're experiencing 668 00:41:12,276 --> 00:41:15,796 Speaker 4: in the world, but making that meaning together. I know 669 00:41:15,916 --> 00:41:18,796 Speaker 4: that I I went into writing in a lot of 670 00:41:18,836 --> 00:41:20,876 Speaker 4: ways because I wanted to make meaning out of the 671 00:41:20,956 --> 00:41:25,716 Speaker 4: world and for this process that that each week, you know, 672 00:41:25,836 --> 00:41:29,516 Speaker 4: and sitting down on these on these calls. Uh, we 673 00:41:29,636 --> 00:41:32,316 Speaker 4: were doing that together and we're like, we're talking to 674 00:41:32,316 --> 00:41:33,996 Speaker 4: each other all the time, like maybe we should have 675 00:41:34,076 --> 00:41:36,076 Speaker 4: this person as a guest, or did you read this story, 676 00:41:36,196 --> 00:41:38,556 Speaker 4: or what do you think about that? Doing that with 677 00:41:38,716 --> 00:41:41,636 Speaker 4: you has been you know, all the work I've done, 678 00:41:41,676 --> 00:41:43,996 Speaker 4: this in some ways is the is certainly the most 679 00:41:44,076 --> 00:41:47,716 Speaker 4: joyous and a lot of ways the most meaningful. Yeah. 680 00:41:47,876 --> 00:41:50,356 Speaker 3: No, I feel the same way. And I thought you 681 00:41:50,476 --> 00:41:53,276 Speaker 3: were going to add to like sitting down for these 682 00:41:53,356 --> 00:41:56,236 Speaker 3: calls like the shit ton of work we do because, man, 683 00:41:56,836 --> 00:41:59,356 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm pretty sure our listeners will appreciate this, 684 00:41:59,516 --> 00:42:02,436 Speaker 3: but we've read a shit ton of books, We've watched 685 00:42:02,476 --> 00:42:07,956 Speaker 3: a shit ton of television, we have watched movies multiple times. 686 00:42:08,076 --> 00:42:14,236 Speaker 3: Our producers have been and indefatigable in following big words 687 00:42:14,356 --> 00:42:17,636 Speaker 3: yeah and following up archival tape so that the show could, 688 00:42:17,716 --> 00:42:19,236 Speaker 3: you know, have these beautiful moments. 689 00:42:19,836 --> 00:42:21,916 Speaker 4: Can I say something a little darker too? I mean, 690 00:42:22,276 --> 00:42:24,956 Speaker 4: we started working on this show about three years ago, 691 00:42:25,636 --> 00:42:30,076 Speaker 4: and it was right after George Floyd's murder. It was 692 00:42:30,236 --> 00:42:34,636 Speaker 4: in that moment of national reckoning on race. And maybe 693 00:42:34,676 --> 00:42:36,196 Speaker 4: that's even we had the show. 694 00:42:37,116 --> 00:42:39,196 Speaker 3: That is exactly one of the reasons we had the show, 695 00:42:39,396 --> 00:42:39,996 Speaker 3: like how can you. 696 00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:42,796 Speaker 4: Talk about race openly and in a way that feels 697 00:42:42,876 --> 00:42:46,236 Speaker 4: honest and you know, two people actually engaging one another 698 00:42:46,276 --> 00:42:48,236 Speaker 4: and then to explore all these topics in the country. 699 00:42:48,836 --> 00:42:52,796 Speaker 4: And over the course of doing this show, you know, 700 00:42:52,876 --> 00:42:56,276 Speaker 4: we've had so much joy, but we've also gone through 701 00:42:57,156 --> 00:43:03,996 Speaker 4: during that time this rapid surprising how fast it was, retrenchment, 702 00:43:04,156 --> 00:43:08,196 Speaker 4: this backlash. The divides that we talk about have only 703 00:43:08,276 --> 00:43:08,916 Speaker 4: become deeper. 704 00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:13,636 Speaker 3: That's right, it does help to think about the fact 705 00:43:13,716 --> 00:43:19,436 Speaker 3: that what we talk about is like almost criminal in 706 00:43:20,036 --> 00:43:22,276 Speaker 3: a lot of states. I mean, we know for a 707 00:43:22,436 --> 00:43:26,636 Speaker 3: fact that we've heard from listeners who are teachers, some 708 00:43:26,796 --> 00:43:28,676 Speaker 3: people have stopped you on the street, and like, I 709 00:43:28,876 --> 00:43:31,636 Speaker 3: have assigned episodes of Some of My Best Friends Are 710 00:43:31,716 --> 00:43:35,556 Speaker 3: to my high school students. And that's in Illinois, of course, 711 00:43:35,676 --> 00:43:38,116 Speaker 3: and I know some of that's happened here in New Jersey, 712 00:43:38,556 --> 00:43:41,796 Speaker 3: but imagine in Florida and Texas. You know, we had 713 00:43:41,916 --> 00:43:45,356 Speaker 3: two really great episodes, one when the attack on critical 714 00:43:45,556 --> 00:43:48,356 Speaker 3: race theory in season one first happened, and then we 715 00:43:48,476 --> 00:43:51,556 Speaker 3: had one this season which looked at how Governor Ron 716 00:43:51,596 --> 00:43:56,156 Speaker 3: DeSantis had in fact helped to draw attention to the 717 00:43:56,196 --> 00:44:00,796 Speaker 3: College Board's curriculum so that a national standard, literally an 718 00:44:00,916 --> 00:44:03,556 Speaker 3: educational standard of the College Board would not be taught 719 00:44:03,636 --> 00:44:06,916 Speaker 3: in Florida and inspired other states for backlash. So, you know, 720 00:44:07,116 --> 00:44:09,676 Speaker 3: our show went from being something that had all the 721 00:44:09,756 --> 00:44:13,556 Speaker 3: possibility of being part of a transformative moment in American 722 00:44:13,636 --> 00:44:16,076 Speaker 3: history to now being a show that could be listed 723 00:44:16,276 --> 00:44:19,836 Speaker 3: as a band resource in a whole bunch of school 724 00:44:19,836 --> 00:44:20,836 Speaker 3: districts all around the county. 725 00:44:20,876 --> 00:44:23,876 Speaker 4: So you think our show actually caused the backlash. 726 00:44:26,996 --> 00:44:29,076 Speaker 3: Well, I have a surprise for you on this point. 727 00:44:29,636 --> 00:44:34,156 Speaker 3: So the Barbie movie the runaway hit of the summer. So, dude, 728 00:44:34,196 --> 00:44:36,956 Speaker 3: you haven't seen the movie, but guess what. There is 729 00:44:37,036 --> 00:44:40,676 Speaker 3: a line in the movie when one of the characters says, 730 00:44:40,796 --> 00:44:44,116 Speaker 3: some of my best friends are Jewish. Dude, I'm telling 731 00:44:44,196 --> 00:44:46,916 Speaker 3: you when you say our show is part of the backlash. 732 00:44:47,196 --> 00:44:47,716 Speaker 4: We made it. 733 00:44:48,076 --> 00:44:50,876 Speaker 3: We made it into the biggest Hollywood hit of the summer. 734 00:44:50,996 --> 00:44:51,436 Speaker 1: Oh man. 735 00:44:51,796 --> 00:44:55,716 Speaker 3: But you raise a really good point, Ben, that it 736 00:44:55,876 --> 00:45:00,796 Speaker 3: was our goal to try to offer something in this 737 00:45:01,156 --> 00:45:07,156 Speaker 3: moment of existential crisis where people weren't quite sure what 738 00:45:07,396 --> 00:45:12,156 Speaker 3: to do as the Trump era was unfolding. We said, like, 739 00:45:12,796 --> 00:45:15,116 Speaker 3: we're going to have this conversation and we're gonna we're 740 00:45:15,156 --> 00:45:20,996 Speaker 3: gonna each week figure out how to understand and say 741 00:45:21,076 --> 00:45:24,236 Speaker 3: something for the rest of the country. And you know, 742 00:45:24,396 --> 00:45:26,796 Speaker 3: in many parts of the world where we have listeners, 743 00:45:27,436 --> 00:45:30,556 Speaker 3: so that we feel like being able to speak to 744 00:45:31,156 --> 00:45:33,516 Speaker 3: what's happening is itself an act of resistance. 745 00:45:33,996 --> 00:45:37,356 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And and and to try 746 00:45:37,396 --> 00:45:39,756 Speaker 4: to add to the conversation in a in a productive way, 747 00:45:39,916 --> 00:45:40,716 Speaker 4: in a meaningful way. 748 00:45:41,436 --> 00:45:46,116 Speaker 3: So I know, I know that every listener has kind 749 00:45:46,156 --> 00:45:48,196 Speaker 3: of uh at least at least I've heard, you know, 750 00:45:48,916 --> 00:45:52,076 Speaker 3: people have favorite episodes, but I have my own, and 751 00:45:52,156 --> 00:45:53,676 Speaker 3: I don't know about you, but I want to hear 752 00:45:53,676 --> 00:45:57,036 Speaker 3: a couple of your favorite ones. I I to this 753 00:45:57,316 --> 00:46:02,796 Speaker 3: day absolutely love the Interracial Buddy Films episode, like that, 754 00:46:03,396 --> 00:46:05,956 Speaker 3: that episode, the conversation about forty eight Hours and Leave 755 00:46:06,036 --> 00:46:08,276 Speaker 3: the Weapon, the like scene in that bar scene where 756 00:46:08,316 --> 00:46:10,876 Speaker 3: we talk about what's happening when Eddie Murphy like becomes 757 00:46:10,996 --> 00:46:13,596 Speaker 3: Nick Nolty's character and takes over the bar. And then 758 00:46:13,676 --> 00:46:17,196 Speaker 3: later when you talk about Danny Glover and Mel Gibson 759 00:46:17,236 --> 00:46:20,916 Speaker 3: in this orgasmic embrace man that that was just smart. 760 00:46:21,596 --> 00:46:23,036 Speaker 3: Good mo, you were really smart. 761 00:46:23,476 --> 00:46:26,076 Speaker 4: Well, I'll say, like, I'm gonna speak more generally because 762 00:46:26,596 --> 00:46:28,836 Speaker 4: you know, you and I have a rapport and sort 763 00:46:28,836 --> 00:46:31,676 Speaker 4: of you know, a casualist. So there's something really fantastic 764 00:46:31,716 --> 00:46:33,876 Speaker 4: when people we didn't know that well came on the 765 00:46:33,916 --> 00:46:37,316 Speaker 4: show and we're just completely comfortable with us and be 766 00:46:37,396 --> 00:46:39,956 Speaker 4: completely open. And you know, there's so many examples of that, 767 00:46:40,396 --> 00:46:42,756 Speaker 4: you know, from from Clint Smith to Jay Kang to 768 00:46:43,076 --> 00:46:47,876 Speaker 4: Sam Irby, and then you know in our experiences we 769 00:46:48,196 --> 00:46:51,156 Speaker 4: know or have come across or have access to, so 770 00:46:51,436 --> 00:46:55,796 Speaker 4: many amazing people, so many people who are fascinating and 771 00:46:55,916 --> 00:46:58,196 Speaker 4: who are truly our friends in some way. And to 772 00:46:58,276 --> 00:47:01,556 Speaker 4: have people on like Avery Today or or Eve Ewing 773 00:47:01,756 --> 00:47:05,636 Speaker 4: or Amanda Williams or Zay Dorn killing it, you are 774 00:47:05,756 --> 00:47:10,436 Speaker 4: dropping all those Nathie Stewart, my sister, uh Sasha Penn, 775 00:47:11,676 --> 00:47:14,196 Speaker 4: you know. But then I have to say that there 776 00:47:14,196 --> 00:47:16,876 Speaker 4: are moments for me and maybe this is like the 777 00:47:17,756 --> 00:47:20,636 Speaker 4: Buddy Films one that you said when it's just us talking. 778 00:47:21,116 --> 00:47:23,156 Speaker 4: And there was a moment when we were doing a 779 00:47:23,236 --> 00:47:25,156 Speaker 4: show about comedy. 780 00:47:25,396 --> 00:47:28,916 Speaker 3: And I think it was started The Bad and the Funny, and. 781 00:47:28,956 --> 00:47:31,436 Speaker 4: It started by Dave Chappelle having this Netflix show. But 782 00:47:31,516 --> 00:47:35,036 Speaker 4: we decided that we would reveal to one another some 783 00:47:35,196 --> 00:47:38,436 Speaker 4: of our favorite comedy moments. And there was a moment 784 00:47:38,716 --> 00:47:40,676 Speaker 4: on air while we're recording when it turned out that 785 00:47:40,716 --> 00:47:43,996 Speaker 4: we picked the exact same clip. We both picked this 786 00:47:44,156 --> 00:47:48,316 Speaker 4: Eddie Murphy skit from Saturday Live. And just like the 787 00:47:49,796 --> 00:47:53,156 Speaker 4: joyousness of that moment, the euphoria, like I was just 788 00:47:53,276 --> 00:47:55,476 Speaker 4: like giddy that we you know, our minds were working 789 00:47:55,516 --> 00:47:55,996 Speaker 4: the same. 790 00:47:55,836 --> 00:47:58,956 Speaker 3: Moody and kurrt. If you missed that episode, listeners, go 791 00:47:59,076 --> 00:48:01,716 Speaker 3: back and Ben is like a four year old kid, 792 00:48:02,276 --> 00:48:05,596 Speaker 3: just so happy. Funny thing is for this conversation. I 793 00:48:05,676 --> 00:48:07,916 Speaker 3: actually picked that memory, that memory too. 794 00:48:08,556 --> 00:48:10,116 Speaker 4: Ah see. 795 00:48:11,276 --> 00:48:15,276 Speaker 3: You know, listen, I mean, this is the one opportunity 796 00:48:15,396 --> 00:48:19,996 Speaker 3: that we have in two seasons, over two years of episodes, 797 00:48:20,476 --> 00:48:23,796 Speaker 3: to share what someone else thought about our show other 798 00:48:23,876 --> 00:48:28,516 Speaker 3: than us. And so I'm going to read one listener review, 799 00:48:29,476 --> 00:48:31,196 Speaker 3: and of course it's a good one, because who gets 800 00:48:31,236 --> 00:48:32,716 Speaker 3: a shit about the ones that hated us? 801 00:48:33,396 --> 00:48:35,476 Speaker 4: Man, So this is very healthy. That's a very healthy 802 00:48:35,516 --> 00:48:37,876 Speaker 4: way I would I'm the person that only looks at 803 00:48:37,916 --> 00:48:40,396 Speaker 4: the negative one. This is a difference between us too. 804 00:48:40,476 --> 00:48:43,236 Speaker 4: Everybody be more like Khalil So. 805 00:48:43,676 --> 00:48:48,476 Speaker 3: From June eighth, twenty twenty three, on the Apple podcast app, 806 00:48:49,436 --> 00:48:53,796 Speaker 3: a listener whose hashtag is my alter ego is a 807 00:48:53,916 --> 00:48:58,796 Speaker 3: Navy Seal titled their five star review as the Intersection 808 00:48:58,996 --> 00:49:02,556 Speaker 3: of Information and Joy. And this is what this listener wrote, 809 00:49:03,396 --> 00:49:06,676 Speaker 3: I love this podcast so much. It gives me so 810 00:49:06,956 --> 00:49:09,916 Speaker 3: much joy to hear two men speak frankly about the 811 00:49:10,036 --> 00:49:14,116 Speaker 3: aspects of a long, beautiful friendship. I want to go 812 00:49:14,236 --> 00:49:18,036 Speaker 3: to Martha's vineyard on vacation with these two amazing families. 813 00:49:18,676 --> 00:49:22,556 Speaker 3: Carry on with great joy heart emoji. But there's more. 814 00:49:22,876 --> 00:49:22,996 Speaker 4: Oh. 815 00:49:23,236 --> 00:49:27,356 Speaker 3: This listener adds update. As I continue to listen to 816 00:49:27,476 --> 00:49:32,876 Speaker 3: this informative, educational, important podcast. May I just say that 817 00:49:33,156 --> 00:49:38,236 Speaker 3: nothing on this beautiful, fragile planet brings me more joy 818 00:49:38,596 --> 00:49:41,276 Speaker 3: and yes, with a tear in my eye than at 819 00:49:41,316 --> 00:49:44,396 Speaker 3: the end when you sign off with I love you, Man, 820 00:49:45,196 --> 00:49:49,196 Speaker 3: I love you too, Yes, yes, thank you. My alter 821 00:49:49,396 --> 00:49:52,116 Speaker 3: ego is a Navy seal, because in my darkest moments 822 00:49:52,156 --> 00:49:54,476 Speaker 3: to come, I will be coming back to this review 823 00:49:56,396 --> 00:49:58,676 Speaker 3: to know that we brought some joy in the world. 824 00:49:59,036 --> 00:50:01,836 Speaker 4: That's beautiful. Well, let me ask you. Let me ask 825 00:50:01,876 --> 00:50:04,196 Speaker 4: you a kind of thought experiment. As close as we are. 826 00:50:05,196 --> 00:50:08,796 Speaker 4: If you could think of anyone else to have done 827 00:50:08,836 --> 00:50:12,716 Speaker 4: this podcast with, even even a historical figure, who would 828 00:50:12,716 --> 00:50:15,916 Speaker 4: it be? Man? 829 00:50:15,956 --> 00:50:17,476 Speaker 3: I think I would have done it with Eddie Murphy? 830 00:50:18,556 --> 00:50:23,836 Speaker 4: Huh interesting? Okay, I got you, Yeah, I got you. 831 00:50:24,076 --> 00:50:25,916 Speaker 4: I got you because I would have still chosen you. 832 00:50:29,156 --> 00:50:36,556 Speaker 4: That's fucked up, all right, we gotta go see everybody later. Khali, Yeah, 833 00:50:37,156 --> 00:50:37,516 Speaker 4: my bad. 834 00:50:37,636 --> 00:50:41,876 Speaker 3: I'm sorry. All right, So listen before we sign off. 835 00:50:42,396 --> 00:50:45,316 Speaker 3: We've got a couple more listeners who are gonna leave 836 00:50:45,396 --> 00:50:47,116 Speaker 3: us with some parting thoughts. 837 00:50:48,836 --> 00:50:52,316 Speaker 7: Hey, bro, I'm really gonna miss you being in my 838 00:50:52,476 --> 00:50:58,276 Speaker 7: closet like twice a week with Khalil. It has been 839 00:50:58,596 --> 00:51:01,236 Speaker 7: really awesome to have you guys get to spend this 840 00:51:01,396 --> 00:51:02,156 Speaker 7: much time together. 841 00:51:02,516 --> 00:51:06,436 Speaker 5: And I can't wait till see what you guys cook 842 00:51:06,516 --> 00:51:06,916 Speaker 5: up next. 843 00:51:07,476 --> 00:51:11,556 Speaker 4: All right, beautiful, that's Khalil's wife, Stephanie. That's beautiful. 844 00:51:11,916 --> 00:51:15,516 Speaker 6: Thank you for that, Ben and Khalil. I can't believe 845 00:51:15,556 --> 00:51:20,516 Speaker 6: it's your final episode. Congratulations on your podcast. I'm so 846 00:51:20,636 --> 00:51:24,156 Speaker 6: happy the world got to hear just how smart, andsightful 847 00:51:24,436 --> 00:51:29,116 Speaker 6: and fucking funny you guys are. I'm privileged because I 848 00:51:29,356 --> 00:51:33,116 Speaker 6: get to continue to see your love, friendship, and brotherhood. 849 00:51:33,316 --> 00:51:34,156 Speaker 6: Congrats guys. 850 00:51:35,116 --> 00:51:37,996 Speaker 4: That's beautiful. That's my wife, Danielle. And the beautiful part 851 00:51:38,036 --> 00:51:41,356 Speaker 4: of the podcast is she still has so many episodes 852 00:51:41,396 --> 00:51:44,076 Speaker 4: to catch up on so she can enjoy this for 853 00:51:44,196 --> 00:51:44,796 Speaker 4: years to come. 854 00:51:48,276 --> 00:51:51,516 Speaker 3: Well, I can't speak on that, but I can say 855 00:51:51,836 --> 00:51:54,956 Speaker 3: that they were part of the show for sure, and 856 00:51:55,356 --> 00:51:57,196 Speaker 3: I think if we were going to thank you, at 857 00:51:57,276 --> 00:52:00,596 Speaker 3: least a couple people beyond our producers and the Pushkin family, 858 00:52:00,996 --> 00:52:03,116 Speaker 3: I think we had to give it up to Stephanie 859 00:52:03,116 --> 00:52:03,956 Speaker 3: and Danielle. 860 00:52:03,996 --> 00:52:04,996 Speaker 4: The loves of our lives. 861 00:52:05,556 --> 00:52:10,756 Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, that's right, all right man. Well, I'm 862 00:52:10,836 --> 00:52:13,676 Speaker 3: sorry that I would have chosen Eddie Murphy if I 863 00:52:13,756 --> 00:52:16,476 Speaker 3: had to do this again, but you know I did. 864 00:52:16,876 --> 00:52:17,716 Speaker 3: There's a trick question. 865 00:52:19,036 --> 00:52:21,356 Speaker 4: There are no trick questions. There are no trick questions, 866 00:52:21,716 --> 00:52:23,636 Speaker 4: only only revealing our true selves. 867 00:52:24,956 --> 00:52:29,356 Speaker 3: The truth is that there's no substitute for you, and 868 00:52:30,916 --> 00:52:35,636 Speaker 3: and this has been an amazing run. And yeah, I 869 00:52:35,716 --> 00:52:37,316 Speaker 3: guess no surprises here. 870 00:52:37,476 --> 00:52:39,396 Speaker 4: I love you, man, I'll see you on the other side. 871 00:52:39,476 --> 00:52:39,916 Speaker 4: Love you too. 872 00:52:45,916 --> 00:52:48,236 Speaker 3: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of 873 00:52:48,356 --> 00:52:52,236 Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil, 874 00:52:52,316 --> 00:52:54,876 Speaker 3: Jabron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. 875 00:52:55,116 --> 00:52:58,956 Speaker 4: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang. 876 00:52:59,516 --> 00:53:02,756 Speaker 4: It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keyshell Williams. 877 00:53:03,156 --> 00:53:06,916 Speaker 4: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our managing producer 878 00:53:07,156 --> 00:53:08,956 Speaker 4: is Constanza Guyardo. 879 00:53:09,436 --> 00:53:13,756 Speaker 3: At Pushkin thanks to Leitol, Molad, Julia Barton, Heather Fein, 880 00:53:14,236 --> 00:53:19,196 Speaker 3: Carly Migliori, John Schnarz, Greta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg. 881 00:53:19,476 --> 00:53:23,236 Speaker 4: Our theme song, Little Lily is by fellow Chicaguan the 882 00:53:23,316 --> 00:53:27,236 Speaker 4: brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Tubman. You definitely 883 00:53:27,276 --> 00:53:30,276 Speaker 4: want to check out his music at his website, Averyaryong 884 00:53:30,356 --> 00:53:30,796 Speaker 4: dot com. 885 00:53:31,076 --> 00:53:34,236 Speaker 3: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin 886 00:53:34,316 --> 00:53:37,156 Speaker 3: Pods and you can sign up for our newsletter at 887 00:53:37,196 --> 00:53:41,316 Speaker 3: pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on 888 00:53:41,436 --> 00:53:45,556 Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. 889 00:53:45,756 --> 00:53:48,116 Speaker 4: And if you like our show, please give us a 890 00:53:48,196 --> 00:53:50,796 Speaker 4: five star rating and a review and listen. Even if 891 00:53:50,796 --> 00:53:52,396 Speaker 4: you don't like it, give it a five star rating 892 00:53:52,436 --> 00:53:55,316 Speaker 4: and a review, and please tell all of your best 893 00:53:55,356 --> 00:54:09,316 Speaker 4: friends about it. Thank you, Sir 894 00:54:14,156 --> 00:54:14,436 Speaker 3: MHM