WEBVTT - #090 Jason Flom with Matthew Charles 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.760 This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject 0:00:03.760 --> 0:00:05.720 to monitoring and recording. 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:09.200 Exactly eleven. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:21.160 And it hasn't been easy one hundred years. That's man. 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:21.720 I'm a kid. 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:25.000 I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.520 that was ah, that was real painful, man, you know, 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:32.360 because my life was discarded as if you know, like 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.199 I was a piece of trash or something, you know, 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.320 a hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:39.200 to do things I wouldn't committing crimes. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:39.680 You know. 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:42.120 I was a very good young man. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.080 That is what happens in so many cases. The cops 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.120 have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene, 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.880 they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch, 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.320 they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.960 marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so 0:00:58.080 --> 0:00:59.600 many of these wrongful convictions. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:00.880 The opening. 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.840 To sell dull and I'll walk down stave And I 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.920 actually walked downstairs to be outside. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:09.920 It felt very strange. 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.399 To be, like I said, to be walking without those shackles. 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:13.559 On my feet. 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:14.640 I thought it was a dream. 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:19.080 But then again it wasn't a dream. This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.120 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm that's me. 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:36.880 And today I'm particularly excited because we have two amazing 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.840 people in the studio. First of all, the star of 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.920 our show today, Matthew Charles. His story is going to 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:45.160 blow your mind. I'll leave it at that for the 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.560 time being. But Matthew, welcome to the show. And with 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.840 him is Kevin Ring, who has a remarkable story of 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.880 his own, having been in prison himself and now being 0:01:56.920 --> 0:02:00.280 the leader of an organization that is very very near 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.200 and dear to me, Families Against Mandatory Minimums, on whose 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:05.279 board I have served for twenty five years. 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:07.760 So Kevin, welcome, Thank you. 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.079 So Matthew, it all starts with you, because you've become 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:16.679 sort of an amazing symbol of this mandatory sentencing nightmare 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.240 that is a uniquely American problem, you know, and you're 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:21.600 here now. 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.080 It's funny. I'm the only one here not in a 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.239 suit and tie, which is sort of ironic. 0:02:26.320 --> 0:02:30.320 But that being said, you don't look like a guy 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.800 who would have been sentenced to thirty five years in prison. 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:35.079 You look like a guy who would be more likely 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.120 to be sentenced to thirty five years sitting in a 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:37.959 corporate boardroom. 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:39.120 But that's beside the point. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:43.040 So let's go back to Tennessee and back to when 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:46.560 this where this story started, because you weren't wrongfully convicted, 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.440 but you were wrongfully sentenced and more than once. So 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.560 let's go back to the time of the crime and 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:54.320 how this all started. 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.280 Back in nineteen ninety five, I was arrested on felony 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.080 drilling and farm violations. At the time, there was a 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:03.720 war on drug so therefore, fifty grams of more for 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.200 crack cocaine allowed you to have a sentencing range of 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.160 ten years to life, and because of the amount exceeding 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.960 fifty grams, it allowed me to be at thirty years 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.320 to life. And when I was sentenced in nineteen ninety six, 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:19.280 I received a thirty five year sentence. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:20.919 And we'll get to that saga, right. 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.120 What makes your story so newsworthy is the fact that 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.799 you were in for so long for decades and then 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.480 out and thriving on the outside for about two years 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:30.480 and then put back in. 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:32.959 I was incarcerated for twenty one and a half years 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:35.680 before I was released the first time I went back, 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.080 and this seven more months once I was sent back, 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.320 and the original thirty five year sentence was reinstated. But 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:45.320 throughout that process of time, the sentencing guidelines changed three 0:03:45.360 --> 0:03:48.880 particular times during that period of mind conserration, in nineteen 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.480 ninety six, in nineteen ninety eight, and in twenty ten. 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.000 In nineteen ninety eight and two thousand, it actually stated 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.520 that the sentence that I was serving could not even 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.560 be above twenty years. So therefore, aerybody that got sentenced 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.920 after two thousand, which was Book of versus Washington, they 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.320 received the sentence of twenty years for the same offense, 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.600 with the same criminal history and the same career offender gaidelines. 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.440 The only thing changed was it took away the mediator 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.120 and nature of the senacing guidelines. The racial disparity didn't disappear, 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.160 It didn't completely disappear. It got lowered, you know, greatly 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:24.320 in twenty ten. 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.560 In twenty ten, Senator Durbin sponsored and championed the first 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.640 mandatory sentencing rollback in America in forty years. You know 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:35.640 that rollback, which I'm proud to say I worked, you 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.200 know what was involved in While it didn't establish parody 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.000 for crack and cocaine, it rolled it back from one 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.600 hundred to one disparity to eighteen to one. Now, this 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.800 is an inherently racist situation because we know that the 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.400 overwhelming majority of crack arrests are people of color, and 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.480 the overwhelming majority of COC arrests are white people. So 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:58.760 you don't need to be a social scientist to figure 0:04:58.800 --> 0:04:59.839 out what's going on there. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.080 And I'll say this about Senator Durbin because you mentioned him. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.880 He recently gave a speech, and you don't hear politicians 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.600 do this, but he said his vote for the original 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:09.479 one hundred to one disparity A lot of those guys 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:10.919 voted for that at the time because it was the 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:12.719 height of the drug war. He said it was the 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.000 worst vote he ever cast and that he was sorry 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.520 for it, and that you know, since that time he 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.480 has worked hard to erase it, and twenty ten was 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.719 the first step in doing that. But I mean, it 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:24.960 just takes a lot of courage to say, you know, 0:05:25.000 --> 0:05:27.000 we were caught in a moral panic, made a mistake, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:29.120 but as an elected official, I did the wrong thing 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:30.440 and now I'm making amends. 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:32.960 Even when I went to meet him, he stayed to 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.240 how he was instrumental into twenty ten changes as well 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.000 as the ones that took place that released me in 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:40.120 twenty nineteen. 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:42.600 How does you know, people I tell people about Matthew's 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.680 case and they say, well, isn't that double jeopardy? He 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:47.480 was in, he was out, and he was put back 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:48.400 in for the same crime. 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:51.800 Matthew was sent back because the federal judge in his 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:55.080 case thought that the twenty ten law applied to him 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.039 and should have benefited him, so he was able to 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.200 cut his sentence. And it turns out the appeals court. 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.840 So this was another funny thing about the where our 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:05.880 politics work. It was the Obama Justice Department who appealed 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.720 the judge's decision and said no, he should finish serving 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.560 his thirty five years. And then the appeals court agreed, 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:13.600 and then they send it back to the judge. And 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.240 now the Trump Justice Apartment was there, and the judge said, 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:18.400 I really don't think I should be sending this guy back. 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.039 Are you sure you don't want to drop these charges? 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:21.680 Because he'd been out for two years and people saw 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.320 him and they said no, send him back. So everybody's 0:06:24.320 --> 0:06:26.680 hands were on this. They could have left him out. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.280 It was a decision to send him back just because 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.039 of this commitment to you know this sort of like 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.880 formalism of this rule of law, like, no, that's what 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:37.440 the sentence is. And even though we see that he's 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.880 been rehabilitated and he doesn't need this sentence, we're going 0:06:39.960 --> 0:06:41.080 to send him back anyway. 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:44.200 The thing about it is me just being incarcerated for 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:47.240 that period of time and seeing others that are incarcerated 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.080 with the same amount of time or more based on 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.719 mandatory minimum sentences, with no way of having any type 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.000 of relief. I just hope that more change is forthcoming. 0:06:57.120 --> 0:06:59.080 Well, what percentage of the people that you were in 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.159 with are really a menace to society? 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.800 I would say probably twenty five percent. I would say 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.080 seventy five percent having over sentenced and are not a 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.120 minister society. And I would say fifty percent of those 0:07:12.160 --> 0:07:15.600 people are changed. In February nineteen ninety six, I have 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.000 become a Christian. It doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are. 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.680 You have a right to justice for all. You have 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:23.840 a right to be sentenced for the crime and get 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.720 a punishment that suit for that crime, not to be 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.400 over sentenced. And the majority of people in there are 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.200 for non valient offenses, and even some of those that 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:35.440 have valient offenses. Still they have changed over the years. 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:37.760 That's what I was speaking about. Either a person changes 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:41.520 because of their choice to change for themselves or their family, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.440 or they may have an encounter or spiritual awakening like 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:47.720 I may have had. All the fact that they've just 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.360 aged over the years and they just taking a real 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:52.880 look at their lives. It doesn't take much to awaken 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:55.400 a person. But the sad part is that those people 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.600 that have been awoken are still awakening to thirty year sentences, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.560 life sentences and their non violent offenses. 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.280 We know that in most parts, I would say of 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:09.040 Western Europe, the maximum sentence you can get for anything 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:11.880 is fifteen years, you know, and some people say, wow, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.640 that dangerous guys. I mean, okay, we can have that discussion, right. 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.240 There may be exceptions, but in general, the idea that 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.280 in Western Europe you can murder multiple people and get 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.640 sentenced to less than half the amount of time that 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:26.600 Matthew did for you know, it wasn't a small amount 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:29.800 of crack, but it's still we're talking about seven ounces, right, 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:32.280 And can we put that in context? Seven ounces? It 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.400 would be like five or six sweet and low packages, right, 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:37.960 or I don't know how much is in the actual 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.240 you know, sugar package that you put in your coffee, 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.480 but it's you know, it would be not far off 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.839 from that. So it's not like you weren't Scarface. 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:47.439 Exactly exactly by no means. 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.199 And you don't appear to be a danger to society either. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.640 I mean from everything that I can tell from knowing 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:55.800 you for the short time that I have, But I 0:08:55.880 --> 0:09:00.320 can't even imagine your perspective going from being one of 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:06.320 two point two million people in this gulag system of America, anonymous, 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:09.040 almost without hope, and then the next thing, you know, 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:12.800 here comes Kim Kardashian. Next thing you know, you're being 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:15.520 discussed in the White House, and you're being discussed in 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.600 the halls of power, and you're actually visiting these places, 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:22.240 and you're on the front page of newspapers and everybody's 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.560 knowing the name of Matthew Charles. And the reason for that, 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:29.400 of course, is that you were freed. You were out. 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.640 Anyone could see that you were doing great right, You 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.880 were contributing to society, you were contributing to your community 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:36.679 and your family. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:39.280 And then what happened during. 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:41.000 The time that I went back for those seven months. 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.160 Once my family and friends started telling me that Kim 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:46.560 Kardashian Wes had first tweeted about asking the president to 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:49.000 release me, I do something about my situation, I was 0:09:49.040 --> 0:09:51.720 in all you know what I mean. And then actually, 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:54.280 once I was able to be released and thank her 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:57.400 for speaking on my behalf and having her hearts and 0:09:57.400 --> 0:10:00.840 her thoughts concerning me throughout my plight, and I was 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:02.880 able to go on her page and tweet that, and 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.200 then when she tweeted back, God bless you, Matthew, I 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:06.000 was like, Wow. 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.920 And the fact that she's speaking out against. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.960 The mendatory minimum nature of the sentencing guidelines or the 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:16.400 mass incarceration extensive sentences and calling for more criminal justice 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.880 reform just as amazing because voices like hers and people 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.920 like her who I listen to, and I'm just thankful for. 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:25.480 Yeah, and I am too. And you know, as you 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.160 know she was on wrongful conviction. We did an episode 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:30.840 with her and we talked about your case, and you know, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:35.319 she really is a passionate advocate. And because I started 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.840 in this work because of a mandatory sentencing case way 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.959 back in nineteen ninety three, and once I was found out, 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:42.920 I was able to make a difference and get this kid, 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:46.120 Stephen Lenning home. I was hooked and I'll never stop. 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:47.880 I mean, as long as I got breath to breathe, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.840 I'll keep fighting the good fight. And I feel like 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:51.920 it's the same thing with her now that she's had 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.400 the experience of working with you and Alice Johnson and 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:57.839 she's in it now, and you know. 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.920 Having her voice is is just a great, great thing 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:02.000 for the movement. 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:04.880 And it takes voices like her And I'm asking, now, 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.520 what can we do for the Waws that are still incarcerated. 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:09.800 And that is it's a common thread. 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.000 We've recorded about eighty episodes of this podcast so far, 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.360 and I would say almost everyone has got the same 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.800 goal that you do, which is to help the others 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:20.840 that were left behind. Yes, I don't know any to 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:22.560 come out and go, okay, I'm gonna go get what's 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.920 mine now. No, everybody comes out with this passion that 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.679 is so inspiring and then put so much gratitude to 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.680 my attitude because everybody wants to go and help others 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:33.680 and that's the way it should be. And because the 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.760 show is called wrong for conviction, I wanted to ask 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:37.800 you about that too before we turn back to Kevin, 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:40.800 what percentage of the people, Because there were hundreds, if 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:42.559 not thousands of people you encountered in twenty one and 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.000 a half years in prison, what percentage of them do 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:46.760 you think were actually in the scent of the crimes 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:48.200 for which they were convicted. 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.040 Since my incarceration in the federal system, I would say, 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:55.080 because the federal system uses a thing called conspiracy, and 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.960 in the conspiracy it doesn't take any real actual evidence. 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.400 They can just convict you on somebody's testimony or what 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.720 we call in the federal prison system as ghost dope. 0:12:04.960 --> 0:12:06.160 In other words, they can give you. 0:12:06.120 --> 0:12:08.760 An amount even though they don't actually have that amount, 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:11.160 just like even in my case of being two hundred 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.000 and sixteen grams, but the actual drug amount that was 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:17.000 attributed to me that could actually be proven was fifty 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:21.160 six grams. Everything else came from hearsay testimony that I 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.840 wasn't able to refute because the government was able to 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:24.959 get it in under. 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:25.880 The conspiracy rule. 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.079 So in saying that, I would say, either the people 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.000 that are incarcerated for drug offenses, I would say probably 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.520 sixty to seventy percent of them have been charged with 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.400 conspiracy or ghost dope. And the sad part is a 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:43.440 lot of times in the federal system they're forced to 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:46.400 take complete So in other words, the prosecution states to 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.400 where it doesn't matter, I'm going to give you this 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:51.280 amount of time. And normally, because the court is bound 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:53.920 by at the time, I was sentence to mandator minimum 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.400 and this is the sentence that has to be imposed, 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.440 and then the judge just actually has the discretion to 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.560 give you the low end. The mid of that centers 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:06.000 are the hoigh end, but it's normally already so hot, 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.240 they just give you the low end anyway, you know 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.240 what I mean. I'm not laughing at this fact that 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:14.280 they do that, because it's sad and disappointing, and so 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.520 in other words, a lot of times that is held 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:19.280 over the inmates or the prisoner's head to where they 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.840 have to agree to a police sentence then come into 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:25.000 prison and know that all the evidence that they gave 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.560 against you was fabricated. So a lot of times they 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:28.160 got it wrong. 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:28.960 You know, we have this. 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:30.679 I think it's an initiative that was driven by the 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.080 Innocence Project called the hashtag guilty plea problem because in America, 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.679 we know that ninety six percent of felony convictions are guilty. Please, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.239 And it's exactly I mean, you said it very eloquently. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.840 That's exactly why it happens because for a lot of people, 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.160 it's the only rational decision you can make. Brian Banks 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.319 a great example of that in California, right plead it 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.720 guilty to a rape that not onlyven committed, it never happened. 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:55.280 But he was advised by his. 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.520 Attorney like, we're going to lose, you know, and you're 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.160 going to get twenty five to life. And so he 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:05.160 chose the only rational choice and fortunately eventually it was 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.160 proven that he was as innocent as could be, but 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:10.880 it was too late to save him from the sentence 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:11.520 that he got. 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:13.960 Echull mentioned something you said about these guilty plead problem. 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:15.959 I'm so glad the Nisence Project is doing that. I've 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.000 seen a lot of their work on it and it's excellent. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:20.160 As you know, every year when they release the number 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.120 of exanarees, there's always a percentage who pled guilty. People 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.720 deny that that happens. Prosecutor will say, no, one innocent 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:29.600 pleads guilty. It happens every year. We see it now 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.280 because of every day, Yeah, and we know it because 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:34.720 they get exonerated by DNA evidence. And then you look 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:36.120 back at those cases and you say they pled and 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.080 it's always saying, why did you do it? It was a 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.640 better deal. And I was testifying in Pennsylvania Senate and 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:46.120 a great criminologist, Mark Clemens, said to a hostile senator, 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.120 if the prosecutor said to a person, plead guilty and 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:52.720 testify as we want, or we're going to break your arm, 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.480 no one would have any problem seeing the moral problem 0:14:56.720 --> 0:15:00.400 with that threat. And yet breaking your arm would be 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.160 a luxury compared to spending thirty five years in prison. 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.880 So when you have a system that sort of incentivizes 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.280 people to say whatever, do whatever, admit to crimes that 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:13.240 didn't commit, testify against people when they didn't see something, 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:14.840 you're going to get injustices. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:16.720 And so right, I would even take one step further. 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.280 You can say to people, plead guilty, and will give 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:21.480 you a choice, either break your arm or spend fifteen 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.560 twenty thirty five years in prison. I'd be investing in 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.440 the company that makes the casts right stock in that company, 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.600 because everybody would take that choice. 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:31.280 And I've never heard a good comeback for that. That's 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:34.480 exactly what that choice feels like, is going to do 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:36.520 this or we have all the leverage in the world, 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.120 and especially with mandatory sentences, because right if you say 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:41.880 I want to go to trial, I think I'm innocent 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.560 or I'm just bullheaded, and at least the judge would 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.440 have some discretion in normal case, well with a mandatory minimum, 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.480 if the prosecutor brings it and threatens you with that, 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:51.320 the judge is cut out. Now you get to the 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.680 end of the sentence, you've been convicted, and the judge 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:55.560 may say, I don't want to give you that punishment, 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:56.760 but I have no choice. Now. 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:01.040 These mandatory sentencing laws are so out of step with 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.160 the rest of the world, the rest of the Western world, 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.160 but almost anywhere in the world you can't get these 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.200 kind of sentences for drug crimes. No, that's right. 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.800 It's only America who did this. We had this crime rise, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.680 and we responded with these mandatory sentences. No other country 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.480 did that, and so our incarceration rate, you know, grew 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:18.880 six hundred percent. 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:19.800 I always tell. 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.000 People the same thing that from nineteen ninety to two 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.600 thousand and five, we built a prisoner jail in this 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.760 country every ten days and that's solely to keep up 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.080 with how many people we were throwing into the prisons 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:39.760 because of these mandatory sentencing laws. 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.440 The fact that we incarcerate black males in America at 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:47.720 six times the rate of South Africa at the height 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.280 of apartheid is something that I can actually feel people 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.800 shaking their heads when they hear this, right, and which 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:56.120 is crazy because we're not even live so I'm projecting, 0:16:56.160 --> 0:17:00.480 but you know, the idea that a black man in 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:04.199 America without a high school diploma has a something like 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.919 a sixty percent chance of spending a year in prison 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:08.679 before his thirtieth birthday. 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.080 What like, I mean, people don't talk about this. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:15.560 But the real reason that Ferguson erupted, I think most 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.440 people and most social scientists would agree, was not because 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.960 specifically of Michael Brown, but it was because they were 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.120 arresting people in Ferguson for mowing their law the wrong way, 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:26.680 you know, for. 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:27.960 Walking down the street without ID. 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:31.720 I heard that in Ferguson the average household had something 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:36.119 like four outstanding warrants, right, because they were just arresting 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:38.520 people for just being black, basically, right. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:39.880 And of course there's. 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:43.880 The socioeconomic aspect of this which is just basically pulling 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:48.840 money in so many sort of defarious ways from the 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.360 poor community and putting in the hands of certain corporations 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.840 who are you know, profiting from this mass incarceration. 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:56.760 And you know, I. 0:17:56.680 --> 0:18:01.000 Hope that listeners will check their portfolios and divest from companies. 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:03.520 If you have a pension fund or anything else that 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.800 you're involved with and you find out that they own 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:08.760 stock in private prisons, divest. We have to make it 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:11.879 known that we're not going to be involved in profiting 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:12.400 off of. 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:14.800 Caging other human beings. It's not okay. 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:16.639 A lot of people do it don't know they're doing it, 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:17.640 so it's worth taking a look. 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:18.919 Well, let me give you an example of something that 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:20.399 just happened this week, and I don't mean to be 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.240 so self absorbed about this. My sixteen year old daughter 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.040 wanted to have a debit card so she could go 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:26.879 out with her friends and not have to always carry cash. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.359 So we opened an account for her and she's been 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.199 using it for a couple of weeks, and then we 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.520 just got to notice that her account was overdrawn, which 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.800 it wasn't. They said, we're closing it out and sending 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.359 you the check and right away. I knew what that 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.120 was because I had to co sign for that account. 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.080