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Speaker 1: This call is from a correction facility, and it's subject

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Speaker 1: to monitoring and recording.

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Speaker 2: Exactly eleven.

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Speaker 3: And it hasn't been easy one hundred years. That's man.

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Speaker 3: I'm a kid.

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Speaker 4: I didn't do anything, you know, and uh, you know

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Speaker 4: that was ah, that was real painful, man, you know,

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Speaker 4: because my life was discarded as if you know, like

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Speaker 4: I was a piece of trash or something, you know,

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Speaker 4: a hundred years and I had dreams and I wanted

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Speaker 4: to do things I wouldn't committing crimes.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: I was a very good young man.

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Speaker 1: That is what happens in so many cases. The cops

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Speaker 1: have a hunch, because they're so smart at the scene,

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Speaker 1: they have a hunch, and once they act on that hunch,

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Speaker 1: they sort of developed tunnel vision and they take off

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Speaker 1: marching in the wrong direction. And that happens in so

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Speaker 1: many of these wrongful convictions.

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Speaker 2: The opening.

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Speaker 1: To sell dull and I'll walk down stave And I

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Speaker 1: actually walked downstairs to be outside.

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Speaker 5: It felt very strange.

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Speaker 1: To be, like I said, to be walking without those shackles.

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Speaker 3: On my feet.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a dream.

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Speaker 3: But then again it wasn't a dream. This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason flamm that's me.

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Speaker 2: And today I'm particularly excited because we have two amazing

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Speaker 2: people in the studio. First of all, the star of

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Speaker 2: our show today, Matthew Charles. His story is going to

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Speaker 2: blow your mind. I'll leave it at that for the

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Speaker 2: time being. But Matthew, welcome to the show. And with

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Speaker 2: him is Kevin Ring, who has a remarkable story of

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Speaker 2: his own, having been in prison himself and now being

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Speaker 2: the leader of an organization that is very very near

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Speaker 2: and dear to me, Families Against Mandatory Minimums, on whose

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Speaker 2: board I have served for twenty five years.

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Speaker 3: So Kevin, welcome, Thank you.

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Speaker 2: So Matthew, it all starts with you, because you've become

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Speaker 2: sort of an amazing symbol of this mandatory sentencing nightmare

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Speaker 2: that is a uniquely American problem, you know, and you're

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Speaker 2: here now.

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Speaker 3: It's funny. I'm the only one here not in a

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Speaker 3: suit and tie, which is sort of ironic.

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Speaker 2: But that being said, you don't look like a guy

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Speaker 2: who would have been sentenced to thirty five years in prison.

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Speaker 2: You look like a guy who would be more likely

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Speaker 2: to be sentenced to thirty five years sitting in a

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Speaker 2: corporate boardroom.

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Speaker 3: But that's beside the point.

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Speaker 2: So let's go back to Tennessee and back to when

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Speaker 2: this where this story started, because you weren't wrongfully convicted,

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Speaker 2: but you were wrongfully sentenced and more than once. So

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Speaker 2: let's go back to the time of the crime and

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Speaker 2: how this all started.

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Speaker 6: Back in nineteen ninety five, I was arrested on felony

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Speaker 6: drilling and farm violations. At the time, there was a

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Speaker 6: war on drug so therefore, fifty grams of more for

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Speaker 6: crack cocaine allowed you to have a sentencing range of

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Speaker 6: ten years to life, and because of the amount exceeding

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Speaker 6: fifty grams, it allowed me to be at thirty years

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Speaker 6: to life. And when I was sentenced in nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 6: I received a thirty five year sentence.

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Speaker 3: And we'll get to that saga, right.

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Speaker 2: What makes your story so newsworthy is the fact that

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Speaker 2: you were in for so long for decades and then

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Speaker 2: out and thriving on the outside for about two years

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Speaker 2: and then put back in.

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Speaker 6: I was incarcerated for twenty one and a half years

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Speaker 6: before I was released the first time I went back,

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Speaker 6: and this seven more months once I was sent back,

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Speaker 6: and the original thirty five year sentence was reinstated. But

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Speaker 6: throughout that process of time, the sentencing guidelines changed three

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Speaker 6: particular times during that period of mind conserration, in nineteen

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Speaker 6: ninety six, in nineteen ninety eight, and in twenty ten.

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Speaker 6: In nineteen ninety eight and two thousand, it actually stated

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Speaker 6: that the sentence that I was serving could not even

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Speaker 6: be above twenty years. So therefore, aerybody that got sentenced

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Speaker 6: after two thousand, which was Book of versus Washington, they

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Speaker 6: received the sentence of twenty years for the same offense,

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Speaker 6: with the same criminal history and the same career offender gaidelines.

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Speaker 6: The only thing changed was it took away the mediator

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Speaker 6: and nature of the senacing guidelines. The racial disparity didn't disappear,

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Speaker 6: It didn't completely disappear. It got lowered, you know, greatly

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Speaker 6: in twenty ten.

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Speaker 2: In twenty ten, Senator Durbin sponsored and championed the first

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Speaker 2: mandatory sentencing rollback in America in forty years. You know

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Speaker 2: that rollback, which I'm proud to say I worked, you

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Speaker 2: know what was involved in While it didn't establish parody

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Speaker 2: for crack and cocaine, it rolled it back from one

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Speaker 2: hundred to one disparity to eighteen to one. Now, this

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Speaker 2: is an inherently racist situation because we know that the

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Speaker 2: overwhelming majority of crack arrests are people of color, and

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Speaker 2: the overwhelming majority of COC arrests are white people. So

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Speaker 2: you don't need to be a social scientist to figure

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Speaker 2: out what's going on there.

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Speaker 7: And I'll say this about Senator Durbin because you mentioned him.

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Speaker 7: He recently gave a speech, and you don't hear politicians

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Speaker 7: do this, but he said his vote for the original

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Speaker 7: one hundred to one disparity A lot of those guys

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Speaker 7: voted for that at the time because it was the

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Speaker 7: height of the drug war. He said it was the

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Speaker 7: worst vote he ever cast and that he was sorry

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Speaker 7: for it, and that you know, since that time he

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Speaker 7: has worked hard to erase it, and twenty ten was

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Speaker 7: the first step in doing that. But I mean, it

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Speaker 7: just takes a lot of courage to say, you know,

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Speaker 7: we were caught in a moral panic, made a mistake,

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Speaker 7: but as an elected official, I did the wrong thing

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Speaker 7: and now I'm making amends.

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Speaker 6: Even when I went to meet him, he stayed to

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Speaker 6: how he was instrumental into twenty ten changes as well

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Speaker 6: as the ones that took place that released me in

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Speaker 6: twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 2: How does you know, people I tell people about Matthew's

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Speaker 2: case and they say, well, isn't that double jeopardy? He

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Speaker 2: was in, he was out, and he was put back

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Speaker 2: in for the same crime.

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Speaker 7: Matthew was sent back because the federal judge in his

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Speaker 7: case thought that the twenty ten law applied to him

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Speaker 7: and should have benefited him, so he was able to

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Speaker 7: cut his sentence. And it turns out the appeals court.

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Speaker 7: So this was another funny thing about the where our

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Speaker 7: politics work. It was the Obama Justice Department who appealed

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Speaker 7: the judge's decision and said no, he should finish serving

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Speaker 7: his thirty five years. And then the appeals court agreed,

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Speaker 7: and then they send it back to the judge. And

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Speaker 7: now the Trump Justice Apartment was there, and the judge said,

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Speaker 7: I really don't think I should be sending this guy back.

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Speaker 7: Are you sure you don't want to drop these charges?

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Speaker 7: Because he'd been out for two years and people saw

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Speaker 7: him and they said no, send him back. So everybody's

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Speaker 7: hands were on this. They could have left him out.

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Speaker 7: It was a decision to send him back just because

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Speaker 7: of this commitment to you know this sort of like

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Speaker 7: formalism of this rule of law, like, no, that's what

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Speaker 7: the sentence is. And even though we see that he's

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Speaker 7: been rehabilitated and he doesn't need this sentence, we're going

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Speaker 7: to send him back anyway.

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Speaker 6: The thing about it is me just being incarcerated for

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Speaker 6: that period of time and seeing others that are incarcerated

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Speaker 6: with the same amount of time or more based on

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Speaker 6: mandatory minimum sentences, with no way of having any type

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Speaker 6: of relief. I just hope that more change is forthcoming.

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Speaker 2: Well, what percentage of the people that you were in

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Speaker 2: with are really a menace to society?

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Speaker 6: I would say probably twenty five percent. I would say

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Speaker 6: seventy five percent having over sentenced and are not a

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Speaker 6: minister society. And I would say fifty percent of those

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Speaker 6: people are changed. In February nineteen ninety six, I have

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Speaker 6: become a Christian. It doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are.

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Speaker 6: You have a right to justice for all. You have

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Speaker 6: a right to be sentenced for the crime and get

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Speaker 6: a punishment that suit for that crime, not to be

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Speaker 6: over sentenced. And the majority of people in there are

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Speaker 6: for non valient offenses, and even some of those that

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Speaker 6: have valient offenses. Still they have changed over the years.

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Speaker 6: That's what I was speaking about. Either a person changes

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Speaker 6: because of their choice to change for themselves or their family,

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Speaker 6: or they may have an encounter or spiritual awakening like

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Speaker 6: I may have had. All the fact that they've just

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Speaker 6: aged over the years and they just taking a real

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Speaker 6: look at their lives. It doesn't take much to awaken

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Speaker 6: a person. But the sad part is that those people

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Speaker 6: that have been awoken are still awakening to thirty year sentences,

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Speaker 6: life sentences and their non violent offenses.

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Speaker 2: We know that in most parts, I would say of

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Speaker 2: Western Europe, the maximum sentence you can get for anything

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Speaker 2: is fifteen years, you know, and some people say, wow,

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Speaker 2: that dangerous guys. I mean, okay, we can have that discussion, right.

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Speaker 2: There may be exceptions, but in general, the idea that

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Speaker 2: in Western Europe you can murder multiple people and get

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Speaker 2: sentenced to less than half the amount of time that

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Speaker 2: Matthew did for you know, it wasn't a small amount

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Speaker 2: of crack, but it's still we're talking about seven ounces, right,

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Speaker 2: And can we put that in context? Seven ounces? It

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Speaker 2: would be like five or six sweet and low packages, right,

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Speaker 2: or I don't know how much is in the actual

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Speaker 2: you know, sugar package that you put in your coffee,

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Speaker 2: but it's you know, it would be not far off

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Speaker 2: from that. So it's not like you weren't Scarface.

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Speaker 5: Exactly exactly by no means.

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Speaker 2: And you don't appear to be a danger to society either.

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Speaker 2: I mean from everything that I can tell from knowing

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Speaker 2: you for the short time that I have, But I

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Speaker 2: can't even imagine your perspective going from being one of

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Speaker 2: two point two million people in this gulag system of America, anonymous,

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Speaker 2: almost without hope, and then the next thing, you know,

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Speaker 2: here comes Kim Kardashian. Next thing you know, you're being

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Speaker 2: discussed in the White House, and you're being discussed in

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Speaker 2: the halls of power, and you're actually visiting these places,

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Speaker 2: and you're on the front page of newspapers and everybody's

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Speaker 2: knowing the name of Matthew Charles. And the reason for that,

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Speaker 2: of course, is that you were freed. You were out.

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Speaker 2: Anyone could see that you were doing great right, You

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Speaker 2: were contributing to society, you were contributing to your community

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Speaker 2: and your family.

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Speaker 3: And then what happened during.

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Speaker 6: The time that I went back for those seven months.

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Speaker 6: Once my family and friends started telling me that Kim

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Speaker 6: Kardashian Wes had first tweeted about asking the president to

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Speaker 6: release me, I do something about my situation, I was

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Speaker 6: in all you know what I mean. And then actually,

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Speaker 6: once I was able to be released and thank her

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Speaker 6: for speaking on my behalf and having her hearts and

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Speaker 6: her thoughts concerning me throughout my plight, and I was

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Speaker 6: able to go on her page and tweet that, and

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Speaker 6: then when she tweeted back, God bless you, Matthew, I

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Speaker 6: was like, Wow.

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Speaker 5: And the fact that she's speaking out against.

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Speaker 6: The mendatory minimum nature of the sentencing guidelines or the

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Speaker 6: mass incarceration extensive sentences and calling for more criminal justice

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Speaker 6: reform just as amazing because voices like hers and people

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Speaker 6: like her who I listen to, and I'm just thankful for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I am too. And you know, as you

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Speaker 2: know she was on wrongful conviction. We did an episode

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Speaker 2: with her and we talked about your case, and you know,

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Speaker 2: she really is a passionate advocate. And because I started

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Speaker 2: in this work because of a mandatory sentencing case way

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Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety three, and once I was found out,

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Speaker 2: I was able to make a difference and get this kid,

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Speaker 2: Stephen Lenning home. I was hooked and I'll never stop.

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Speaker 2: I mean, as long as I got breath to breathe,

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Speaker 2: I'll keep fighting the good fight. And I feel like

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Speaker 2: it's the same thing with her now that she's had

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Speaker 2: the experience of working with you and Alice Johnson and

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Speaker 2: she's in it now, and you know.

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Speaker 3: Having her voice is is just a great, great thing

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Speaker 3: for the movement.

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Speaker 6: And it takes voices like her And I'm asking, now,

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Speaker 6: what can we do for the Waws that are still incarcerated.

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Speaker 3: And that is it's a common thread.

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Speaker 2: We've recorded about eighty episodes of this podcast so far,

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Speaker 2: and I would say almost everyone has got the same

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Speaker 2: goal that you do, which is to help the others

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Speaker 2: that were left behind. Yes, I don't know any to

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Speaker 2: come out and go, okay, I'm gonna go get what's

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Speaker 2: mine now. No, everybody comes out with this passion that

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Speaker 2: is so inspiring and then put so much gratitude to

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Speaker 2: my attitude because everybody wants to go and help others

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Speaker 2: and that's the way it should be. And because the

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Speaker 2: show is called wrong for conviction, I wanted to ask

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Speaker 2: you about that too before we turn back to Kevin,

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Speaker 2: what percentage of the people, Because there were hundreds, if

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Speaker 2: not thousands of people you encountered in twenty one and

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Speaker 2: a half years in prison, what percentage of them do

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Speaker 2: you think were actually in the scent of the crimes

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Speaker 2: for which they were convicted.

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Speaker 6: Since my incarceration in the federal system, I would say,

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Speaker 6: because the federal system uses a thing called conspiracy, and

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Speaker 6: in the conspiracy it doesn't take any real actual evidence.

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Speaker 6: They can just convict you on somebody's testimony or what

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Speaker 6: we call in the federal prison system as ghost dope.

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Speaker 5: In other words, they can give you.

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Speaker 6: An amount even though they don't actually have that amount,

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Speaker 6: just like even in my case of being two hundred

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Speaker 6: and sixteen grams, but the actual drug amount that was

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Speaker 6: attributed to me that could actually be proven was fifty

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Speaker 6: six grams. Everything else came from hearsay testimony that I

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Speaker 6: wasn't able to refute because the government was able to

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Speaker 6: get it in under.

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Speaker 5: The conspiracy rule.

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Speaker 6: So in saying that, I would say, either the people

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Speaker 6: that are incarcerated for drug offenses, I would say probably

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Speaker 6: sixty to seventy percent of them have been charged with

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Speaker 6: conspiracy or ghost dope. And the sad part is a

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Speaker 6: lot of times in the federal system they're forced to

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Speaker 6: take complete So in other words, the prosecution states to

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Speaker 6: where it doesn't matter, I'm going to give you this

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Speaker 6: amount of time. And normally, because the court is bound

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Speaker 6: by at the time, I was sentence to mandator minimum

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Speaker 6: and this is the sentence that has to be imposed,

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Speaker 6: and then the judge just actually has the discretion to

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Speaker 6: give you the low end. The mid of that centers

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Speaker 6: are the hoigh end, but it's normally already so hot,

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Speaker 6: they just give you the low end anyway, you know

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Speaker 6: what I mean. I'm not laughing at this fact that

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Speaker 6: they do that, because it's sad and disappointing, and so

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Speaker 6: in other words, a lot of times that is held

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Speaker 6: over the inmates or the prisoner's head to where they

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Speaker 6: have to agree to a police sentence then come into

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Speaker 6: prison and know that all the evidence that they gave

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Speaker 6: against you was fabricated. So a lot of times they

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Speaker 6: got it wrong.

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Speaker 3: You know, we have this.

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Speaker 2: I think it's an initiative that was driven by the

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Speaker 2: Innocence Project called the hashtag guilty plea problem because in America,

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Speaker 2: we know that ninety six percent of felony convictions are guilty. Please,

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Speaker 2: And it's exactly I mean, you said it very eloquently.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly why it happens because for a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: it's the only rational decision you can make. Brian Banks

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Speaker 2: a great example of that in California, right plead it

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Speaker 2: guilty to a rape that not onlyven committed, it never happened.

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Speaker 3: But he was advised by his.

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Speaker 2: Attorney like, we're going to lose, you know, and you're

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Speaker 2: going to get twenty five to life. And so he

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Speaker 2: chose the only rational choice and fortunately eventually it was

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Speaker 2: proven that he was as innocent as could be, but

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Speaker 2: it was too late to save him from the sentence

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Speaker 2: that he got.

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Speaker 7: Echull mentioned something you said about these guilty plead problem.

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Speaker 7: I'm so glad the Nisence Project is doing that. I've

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Speaker 7: seen a lot of their work on it and it's excellent.

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Speaker 7: As you know, every year when they release the number

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Speaker 7: of exanarees, there's always a percentage who pled guilty. People

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Speaker 7: deny that that happens. Prosecutor will say, no, one innocent

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Speaker 7: pleads guilty. It happens every year. We see it now

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Speaker 7: because of every day, Yeah, and we know it because

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Speaker 7: they get exonerated by DNA evidence. And then you look

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Speaker 7: back at those cases and you say they pled and

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Speaker 7: it's always saying, why did you do it? It was a

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Speaker 7: better deal. And I was testifying in Pennsylvania Senate and

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Speaker 7: a great criminologist, Mark Clemens, said to a hostile senator,

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Speaker 7: if the prosecutor said to a person, plead guilty and

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Speaker 7: testify as we want, or we're going to break your arm,

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Speaker 7: no one would have any problem seeing the moral problem

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Speaker 7: with that threat. And yet breaking your arm would be

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Speaker 7: a luxury compared to spending thirty five years in prison.

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Speaker 7: So when you have a system that sort of incentivizes

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Speaker 7: people to say whatever, do whatever, admit to crimes that

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Speaker 7: didn't commit, testify against people when they didn't see something,

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Speaker 7: you're going to get injustices.

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Speaker 3: And so right, I would even take one step further.

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Speaker 2: You can say to people, plead guilty, and will give

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Speaker 2: you a choice, either break your arm or spend fifteen

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Speaker 2: twenty thirty five years in prison. I'd be investing in

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Speaker 2: the company that makes the casts right stock in that company,

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Speaker 2: because everybody would take that choice.

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Speaker 7: And I've never heard a good comeback for that. That's

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Speaker 7: exactly what that choice feels like, is going to do

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Speaker 7: this or we have all the leverage in the world,

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Speaker 7: and especially with mandatory sentences, because right if you say

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Speaker 7: I want to go to trial, I think I'm innocent

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Speaker 7: or I'm just bullheaded, and at least the judge would

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Speaker 7: have some discretion in normal case, well with a mandatory minimum,

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Speaker 7: if the prosecutor brings it and threatens you with that,

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Speaker 7: the judge is cut out. Now you get to the

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Speaker 7: end of the sentence, you've been convicted, and the judge

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Speaker 7: may say, I don't want to give you that punishment,

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Speaker 7: but I have no choice. Now.

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Speaker 2: These mandatory sentencing laws are so out of step with

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Speaker 2: the rest of the world, the rest of the Western world,

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Speaker 2: but almost anywhere in the world you can't get these

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Speaker 2: kind of sentences for drug crimes. No, that's right.

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Speaker 7: It's only America who did this. We had this crime rise,

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Speaker 7: and we responded with these mandatory sentences. No other country

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Speaker 7: did that, and so our incarceration rate, you know, grew

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Speaker 7: six hundred percent.

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Speaker 5: I always tell.

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Speaker 7: People the same thing that from nineteen ninety to two

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Speaker 7: thousand and five, we built a prisoner jail in this

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Speaker 7: country every ten days and that's solely to keep up

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Speaker 7: with how many people we were throwing into the prisons

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Speaker 7: because of these mandatory sentencing laws.

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Speaker 2: The fact that we incarcerate black males in America at

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Speaker 2: six times the rate of South Africa at the height

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Speaker 2: of apartheid is something that I can actually feel people

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Speaker 2: shaking their heads when they hear this, right, and which

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Speaker 2: is crazy because we're not even live so I'm projecting,

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Speaker 2: but you know, the idea that a black man in

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Speaker 2: America without a high school diploma has a something like

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Speaker 2: a sixty percent chance of spending a year in prison

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Speaker 2: before his thirtieth birthday.

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Speaker 3: What like, I mean, people don't talk about this.

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Speaker 2: But the real reason that Ferguson erupted, I think most

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Speaker 2: people and most social scientists would agree, was not because

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Speaker 2: specifically of Michael Brown, but it was because they were

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Speaker 2: arresting people in Ferguson for mowing their law the wrong way,

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Speaker 2: you know, for.

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Speaker 3: Walking down the street without ID.

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Speaker 2: I heard that in Ferguson the average household had something

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Speaker 2: like four outstanding warrants, right, because they were just arresting

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Speaker 2: people for just being black, basically, right.

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Speaker 3: And of course there's.

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Speaker 2: The socioeconomic aspect of this which is just basically pulling

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Speaker 2: money in so many sort of defarious ways from the

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Speaker 2: poor community and putting in the hands of certain corporations

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Speaker 2: who are you know, profiting from this mass incarceration.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I.

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Speaker 2: Hope that listeners will check their portfolios and divest from companies.

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Speaker 2: If you have a pension fund or anything else that

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Speaker 2: you're involved with and you find out that they own

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Speaker 2: stock in private prisons, divest. We have to make it

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Speaker 2: known that we're not going to be involved in profiting

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Speaker 2: off of.

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Speaker 3: Caging other human beings. It's not okay.

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Speaker 2: A lot of people do it don't know they're doing it,

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Speaker 2: so it's worth taking a look.

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Speaker 7: Well, let me give you an example of something that

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Speaker 7: just happened this week, and I don't mean to be

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Speaker 7: so self absorbed about this. My sixteen year old daughter

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Speaker 7: wanted to have a debit card so she could go

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Speaker 7: out with her friends and not have to always carry cash.

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Speaker 7: So we opened an account for her and she's been

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Speaker 7: using it for a couple of weeks, and then we

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Speaker 7: just got to notice that her account was overdrawn, which

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Speaker 7: it wasn't. They said, we're closing it out and sending

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Speaker 7: you the check and right away. I knew what that

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Speaker 7: was because I had to co sign for that account.

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Speaker 7: So I called Capital One and I said what's going

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Speaker 7: on here? And they said, we're going to send you

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Speaker 7: a close out check and we'll inform you what this

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Speaker 7: is about. And all they did was send the close

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Speaker 7: out check saying this account was closed at the customer's request.

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Speaker 3: No it wasn't.

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Speaker 2: We didn't ask to close it.

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Speaker 7: And so I had to bump around on a million

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Speaker 7: phone calls and finally say, I have a felony conviction.

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Speaker 7: Is that why you closed her account? And they finally

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Speaker 7: said yes, the bank has made a business decision not

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Speaker 7: to have an account with you. So I went to

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Speaker 7: prison for a year and a half, as you know,

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Speaker 7: for public corruption charges. My daughter can't have an account

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Speaker 7: a Capital and bank. So this is a cultural problem.

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Speaker 7: You wouldn't need to do this podcast if everyone saw

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Speaker 7: it the way you saw it, and we see it right.

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Speaker 7: So part of our problem is we're trying to convince

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Speaker 7: our fellow citizens that this is the problem, and look

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Speaker 7: at its tentacles. I mean, why can't a sixteen year

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Speaker 7: old girl have a bank account because her dad went

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Speaker 7: to prison for a year and a half for you know,

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Speaker 7: these charges, and that's the way it is. And I'm fine, right,

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Speaker 7: I have a credit Union account, will be fine. I'm

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Speaker 7: more fortunate than most. What if you're a single mother

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Speaker 7: and you know your husband had a conviction and now

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Speaker 7: you can't have an account for your kids and that

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Speaker 7: bank account's the only chance. So we just penalize people

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Speaker 7: in so many ways, prison being the worst of it.

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Speaker 7: But you just never get out of the penalty box.

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Speaker 7: You don't get occupational licenses to do. You know, people

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Speaker 7: who barber in prison, then they can't do it on

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Speaker 7: the outside. We just never let people out and we

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Speaker 7: punish them. And that's I'd love to point to somebody

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Speaker 7: say it's their fault. But we countenance this unless we

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Speaker 7: go to say to the politicians, we don't want these

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Speaker 7: policies anymore.

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Speaker 2: No, that's absolutely right, And you know it's nuts, because

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Speaker 2: all of us want to live in a safe society, right,

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Speaker 2: all of us want ourselves and our families to be

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Speaker 2: able to walk the streets. And it shouldn't be that

442
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 2: difficult for people to understand that since ninety five or

443
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 2: more percent of people that are in prison right now

444
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 2: are going to be coming home The only approach that

445
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 2: makes any sense is to give those people the best

446
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,719
Speaker 2: chance possible to get back on their feet when they

447
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,600
Speaker 2: get out. Instead, we pull the rug out from under them,

448
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,200
Speaker 2: and then we act surprised when they have to resort

449
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,120
Speaker 2: to stealing something or doing something else because they need

450
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 2: to eat. It's amazing. You know, in other countries they

451
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 2: have a recidivism rate that's a tiny fraction of because

452
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 2: they treat their prisoners like human beings and they pave

453
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 2: the way for them to come out and get back

454
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 2: into society, where we just put up barriers one after

455
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,160
Speaker 2: the other.

456
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,160
Speaker 3: I love my country. I was born here.

457
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 2: I know how lucky I am to have been born

458
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,240
Speaker 2: here in the first place. And it's because I love

459
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 2: my country that I want to see these things changed.

460
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,439
Speaker 2: You know, it's a very interesting moment because this is,

461
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 2: at least to some extent, the only bipart is an

462
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 2: issue right now. Right there's such a divide in this country,

463
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: but on this issue there's some alignment. Is it because

464
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 2: of the fiscal problems that go?

465
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's more personal than that. I think

466
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,159
Speaker 7: that people use arguments that they can justify to their

467
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 7: own side. So you hear conservatives talking about the cost

468
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 7: of prisons and these things, But ultimately, I think it's

469
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 7: a mor of issue for everybody. It is a matter

470
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 7: of fairness. The system didn't hit every community in the

471
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,199
Speaker 7: same way, so certain communities were sensitized to this issue

472
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,880
Speaker 7: earlier on. But now we have this new study from

473
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 7: Forward dot US that said one out of every two

474
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,719
Speaker 7: adults in America has had an immediate family incarcerated. So

475
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 7: that's over one hundred and thirteen million Americans. I mean,

476
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 7: obviously I'm self interested. FAM has been fighting this for

477
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 7: over twenty five years thanks to your help. What we're

478
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 7: trying to do is take that number.

479
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 3: Right.

480
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 7: If you were a lobbyist and you were trying to

481
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 7: influence a member of Congress, you'd say, hey, do I

482
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 7: have any plants in his district? Do I have any constituents.

483
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 7: We have constituents everywhere across this country, one hundred and

484
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 7: thirteen million people who have been affected by the system.

485
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 7: What we're trying to do is make them advocates, make

486
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 7: them a part of a loud, noisy army that says

487
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 7: we can't do this anymore. A bad system will breed

488
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,920
Speaker 7: bad results, and we have a bad system that incentivizes

489
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,479
Speaker 7: the wrong things. And so what we're trying to do

490
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 7: is get people involved. Our particular interest is bringing forward

491
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,399
Speaker 7: the families who've.

492
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 3: Been affected by this.

493
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 7: And I think about my situation, you know the fact

494
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 7: that I wasn't somebody who thought who was going to

495
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 7: end up in federal prison, but when it happened to me,

496
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,440
Speaker 7: and all of a sudden, you know, the next day,

497
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 7: I'm taking my kids to the bus stop, and one

498
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 7: at a time, neighbors are coming up to me over

499
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,959
Speaker 7: the next week saying, I've never told anyone this, but

500
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 7: my brother went to prison. Somebody else come up, Hey,

501
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 7: I never told you when my dad went to prison,

502
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 7: and I thought, we're not talking about this. It gets

503
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 7: to the point where I think it's Abraham Lincoln and said,

504
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 7: if you want to repeal a bad law, enforce it strictly.

505
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 7: We've got a point out where we're locking everybody up.

506
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 7: And so now every community is saying, maybe we're doing

507
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 7: this wrong. It's almost self interest that Scott is there.

508
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 7: Every family has been touched either directly or indirectly by mass.

509
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 2: Incarceration, you know, and in this country the statistics are

510
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 2: so insane, like the one you just talked about. Like

511
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: I'm sitting here listening to it. I knew that number,

512
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: but it still doesn't make any sense. Right, one hundred

513
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 2: and thirteen million people?

514
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 3: What is it?

515
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 2: It's not a right of passage, It's nothing to be

516
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 2: proud of. It's disgusting. What are we doing. All we're

517
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: doing is like trying to hurt our own people. And

518
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 2: unless you believe that American people are inherently evil and

519
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 2: need to be punished differently and more than other people

520
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: around the world, then the only other conclusion you can

521
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: draw is that we're doing it wrong. I believe that

522
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: mass incarcerations, may be a controversial statement, is the worst

523
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 2: social policy disasters since slavery.

524
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 6: I used the same analogy, and I said that's not

525
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 6: politically correct because I was talking to some inmates when

526
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 6: some prisoners, and I was like, well, really, whenever in

527
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,639
Speaker 6: twenty ten, senacing guidelines changed and they said that this

528
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,640
Speaker 6: was based on the racial disparity crack cocaine and powder cocaine.

529
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 6: The majority of the people that got incarcerated with African Americans.

530
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 6: Then when it was changed from eighteen to one, but

531
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 6: those changes were.

532
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 5: Not made retroactive.

533
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 6: I did you kind of make the analogy of slavery,

534
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 6: because I was like, well, you know that slavery was

535
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 6: wrong and that it shouldn't existed, so therefore you let

536
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,879
Speaker 6: the slaves go free in this situation, you saying, Okay,

537
00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 6: we acknowledged that it's wrong, and we're going to stop slavery,

538
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 6: but we're going to keep the people slaves that's already

539
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 6: in there. And that's the way I look at retroactivity.

540
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,880
Speaker 6: Not only did they turned around and change the sentencing

541
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 6: guidelines themselves, the drug tables, So therefore it was a

542
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 6: clear admission that this was wrong, it was proportionate to

543
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 6: the black community, but yet you still had over three

544
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 6: thousand people me included, that were still incarcerated because it

545
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 6: was never made retroactive. So the First Step Act did

546
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 6: make those changes retroactive. And if I hadn't got out

547
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 6: for those two years and they was actually able to

548
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 6: see me in society showing that I had been rehabilitated

549
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 6: by society's terms, they did never even knew it, and

550
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 6: I still would have served nine or ten more years

551
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 6: in federal prison. Whereas I got some fellow brothers that

552
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 6: I consider my brothers because they're incarcerated and doesn't matter

553
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 6: what their race is. A lot of time people say, well,

554
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 6: you didn't receive an infraction or diitionary report in twenty

555
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 6: one and a half years. Well, okay, that's fine, and

556
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 6: now I'm still a work in progress. But these people

557
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 6: shouldn't have a long sentence just because they commit a

558
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 6: minor infraction or they do something wrong in prison for

559
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 6: a sentence that they shouldn't have had anywhere. I don't

560
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 6: want to say that their behavior shouldn't be taken into accountability.

561
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 6: But anytime that you say, okay, charges in a different

562
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 6: category than the rest of the prisoners that are in

563
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 6: frension in federal prison, you're sadly mistaken. Some of my

564
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,719
Speaker 6: best examples, some of my best mentors, had life sentences,

565
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 6: and to me, they were living a better example of

566
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 6: how to be somebody just changed than I ever could.

567
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 6: And it doesn't matter that I became a Christian at

568
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 6: that time. And they may not believe anything, but once

569
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 6: you start looking at it from the perspective that he's

570
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 6: a Christian, he didn't get in any trouble and therefore

571
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 6: the wrong that was done to him needed to be righted. Well,

572
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 6: the wrong has done anybody need to be writing, right.

573
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because talking to Matthew and you know,

574
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: he's a man of faith and everything else. I'm a

575
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: Jewish atheist, right so, but at the end of the day,

576
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 2: I think we all believe in the same thing, which

577
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 2: is redemption, right, and America is supposed to be a

578
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,720
Speaker 2: nation of second chances, and yet we're actually the opposite.

579
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: We are lock them up and throw away the key nation.

580
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: The amount of human potential that's being wasted, the people

581
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: that could be contributing to society tax dollars, you know,

582
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: is the most mundane example, but you know, culture and

583
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 2: everything else, it's a tragedy, you know. In the limited

584
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: amount of time we have left, I want to talk

585
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: about Families Against Mandatory Minimums. It's some of the victories

586
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: that the organization has won over the last couple of

587
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: years are really phenomenal.

588
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: Famm dot org.

589
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 2: By the way, fle like blom Right, fam like music music,

590
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: Famm dot org. I encourage everyone to go to the website,

591
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 2: sign up, learn more, get involved. But can you talk

592
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: about some of the work.

593
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 3: And some of the priorities of Families Against Manatory Minimums

594
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: right now? Yeah?

595
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 7: Sure, Well, a lot of the things that we've been

596
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 7: working on at the federal level were included in this

597
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 7: first step back. And you know, we're the first ones

598
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 7: to say it was first step back for a reason.

599
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 7: It only made incremental reforms, but the retroactive change of

600
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 7: the crack ball has been a priority since they passed

601
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 7: it in twenty ten. We thought at the time that

602
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 7: was a difficult decision, probably for you too, that we thought,

603
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 7: this isn't retroactive. All these guys whose stories we told

604
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 7: now aren't going to benefit from this law. It made

605
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 7: no sense. So it's so glad to see that finally happen.

606
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 7: And what we're seeing is people getting out like Matthew

607
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 7: who weren't serving twelve or fifteen year sentences and getting

608
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 7: a couple year of breaks. There's lifers who are getting out.

609
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 7: There are people with sentences like thirty five years like

610
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 7: Matthews are getting out. So it's been that's been incredible

611
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 7: changes to the compassionate release rules. We talk about a

612
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 7: sickness in our culture. We have this just bloodlust to

613
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 7: make people die alone in prison cells, even when they

614
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 7: didn't get a life sentence. If they fall ill while

615
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 7: they're in prison, they just can't get out because no one,

616
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 7: you know, their family can't get through the bureaucracy to

617
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 7: get out of prison. And so there was a change

618
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 7: in this law that allows families and prisoners to appeal

619
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 7: denials by the Bureau of Prisons, or if they don't

620
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 7: get an answer in a timely way and they're terminally ill,

621
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 7: they can go straight to court. So we're starting to

622
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 7: see that work out. Another big change that we were

623
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 7: happy to support was in Florida. There was a ballot

624
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 7: and the big one was obviously Amendment four, which gave

625
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 7: felons the right to vote in Florida, so that was

626
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 7: hugely important and we supported that. But we had another

627
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 7: ballot measure because Florida had its third highest incarceration rate

628
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 7: in the country and had the quirk in its constitution

629
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 7: that said, even if the legislature wanted to make its

630
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 7: sentencing reductions retroactive, it didn't have the power to do it.

631
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 7: So we had to change the constitution. So we were

632
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 7: able to get that on the ballot, and I think

633
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 7: partly because of the wake of Amendment four, it passed

634
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 7: with fifty two percent of the vote. So now in

635
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 7: Florida we're working on sentencing reforms that'll be retroactive, so

636
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 7: we can get some of the cases that you've been

637
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 7: helpful on, Jason, So get some of those people out,

638
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 7: because again we've told stories about people are getting unfair

639
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 7: sentences and then we changed the law, but it didn't

640
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 7: benefit them. So now we're working on that. I think

641
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 7: the next big thing we have to look at is

642
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 7: these long sentences. If you talk about violent offenders, or

643
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 7: if you get to the specifics of the offense, people

644
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 7: get nervous. But if you say, how about after fifteen

645
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 7: years of serving a sentence, no matter what the crime,

646
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 7: the judge gets to take a second look at you

647
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 7: and see whether you've been rehabilitated, whether you've just grown

648
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 7: out of the crime, or whether they've just, on second thought,

649
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 7: maybe the punishment was too severe. So we're talking about

650
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 7: pushing forward what would be known as sort of a

651
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 7: second look provision to get at some of these longer sentences,

652
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 7: because that's really what's driving our incarceration rate.

653
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 5: And we hope that.

654
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 7: People realize the more they see people like Matthew get

655
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 7: out that even if you don't make an internal change,

656
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 7: is he said, people grow out of crime. I serve

657
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,479
Speaker 7: time with the guy get ten years for a drug sentence.

658
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 7: I said, oh, you probably only needed two years, and

659
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 7: he said, no, I needed five. I was a punk,

660
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 7: I was a bad guy, and I needed to get

661
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 7: away from my community, away from my family, which brought

662
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 7: him into the drug selling. He said, I needed some time,

663
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 7: he needed.

664
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: To grow out of it.

665
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 7: Anybody who was in that prison would have looked at

666
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 7: him though, after those five years and said, you can

667
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 7: go home now. But we don't have a system that

668
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 7: allows for it. There's no parole in the federal system.

669
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 7: So we have to have some way for judges to

670
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 7: look back at these sentences and get people out. So

671
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 7: fam is committed to continuing our work at the state

672
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 7: level to make sure we get rid of mandatory sentences,

673
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 7: which are the most absurd in Pennsylvania, Florida, Arizona, in

674
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 7: North Carolina, Louisiana.

675
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 3: We're making great st.

676
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 7: Uisanna has been incredible. Yeah, and so I think, you know,

677
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:20,479
Speaker 7: there's a lot of groups doing this, a lot of movement.

678
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 7: Our particular interest is bringing forward the families who've been

679
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 7: affected by this. Sometimes there's a problem where you know,

680
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 7: members of the public or the media or lawmakers will

681
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 7: see somebody, even a like Matthew, although I haven't seen

682
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 7: it happen with Matthew, and they'll say, well, you did

683
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 7: something wrong, and so there's somehow they're able to not

684
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 7: feel sympathy. But when you have family members come forward

685
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 7: and say, you know, my dad made a mistake or

686
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 7: my brother made a mistake, and they deserve to be

687
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 7: held accountable. But you don't know what this sentence and

688
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 7: this punishment is doing to all the rest of us.

689
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 7: We're innocent collateral damage. That is very effective. And so

690
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 7: when we bring those family voices. When Matthew is away,

691
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 7: his friend Naomi came to our rally last July. She

692
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 7: spoke with Tennessee senators. She was his advocate. That really

693
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 7: does make a difference, And it's seeing people in the flesh.

694
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 7: We are good at punishing others that we don't know,

695
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 7: but when you see people and I alway see this,

696
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 7: and you're an artistic person, so you'll get this. If

697
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 7: somebody said to me, what did it for Matthew? It

698
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 7: wasn't just that Juliette Martin Elliott, NPR and Nashville wrote

699
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 7: a great story.

700
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 5: It's that she took.

701
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 7: Pictures and when you saw Matthew working at a pantry

702
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 7: and just saw him living his life, you just knew

703
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 7: this guy was not a threat who needed another decade

704
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 7: in prison. You were embarrassed that we send him away

705
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 7: for thirty five years. It's like when you first were

706
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 7: talking earlier, It's like, this guy was in there for

707
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 7: thirty five years. That makes no sense. And so we've

708
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 7: got to bring some sunlight to the system. And so

709
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 7: that's that, you know, by bringing the families forward and

710
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,479
Speaker 7: meeting with lawmakers and putting them in their face and

711
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 7: telling those stories, that's what we're trying to do.

712
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 2: I mean, not only am I not scared of Matthew,

713
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 2: I'm thinking I need to get ahold of his tailor.

714
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: Looking like a model. I mean, every week it's another suit.

715
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: It's crazy.

716
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: So right, and again that's FAMM dot org Families Against

717
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: Mandatory Minimums dot org. We're doing amazing work and we're

718
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: really winning. We're starting to really get on a roll.

719
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 2: So now's a great time to join. You know, together

720
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: we can turn this upside down and get back to

721
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: a sane system and free up money for education and

722
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 2: healthcare and all the other things.

723
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 3: That we really need.

724
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: Instead of spending it all on locking people up, which

725
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 2: has costs upon cost.

726
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 3: I mean, it's amazing.

727
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: In New York City, the state controllers said it costs

728
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 2: like one hundred and seventy five thousand dollars a year

729
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: to keep somebody in Riker's Island. If you break that

730
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: down to a daily rate, it's more than the four

731
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 2: seasons on fifty seventh Street, you know what I mean, Like,

732
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 2: excuse me, Like you don't have to be an economist

733
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 2: to understand that there's something really really wrong with that,

734
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 2: and no one should want to see their.

735
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 3: Tax dollars being spent that way.

736
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: And going back to what you have touched on before,

737
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't forty years ago that we had

738
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: three hundred thousand people in prison in America. Now we

739
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: have two point two million and women in prison. I mean,

740
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 2: we don't have time to go into that, but the

741
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: fact is we have four point four percent of the

742
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 2: world's population. We have twenty five percent of the world's

743
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 2: prison population. That alone is mind blowing, But we have

744
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 2: thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. Many

745
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 2: of those women are mothers, and those children will most

746
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: likely end up.

747
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 3: In the system.

748
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 2: Themselves, because we know from decades of research that the

749
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 2: number one cause of why a child may end up

750
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 2: incarcerated is if they've had a parent incarcerated. It's not education,

751
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 2: it's not race, it's not socioeconomics. It's if someone is

752
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: missing their parents and missing that family structure. You know

753
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: they're going to fall into, you know, some of the

754
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 2: same traps, and it's a cycle that we need to

755
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 2: break and the country will be much better off when

756
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: we do. This has been a great discussion. I could

757
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: talk to you guys for hours, but I'm assuming that

758
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: people who listen that probably have other things they want

759
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 2: to do with their day as well. The good news

760
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 2: is my favorite part of the show is this part

761
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 2: of the show.

762
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 3: And here's how it works.

763
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: At the end of each episode, I get to take

764
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: a rest and give everybody a.

765
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 3: Break from hearing my voice.

766
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 2: And so what that means is that I'm going to

767
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 2: thank both of you again for being here. Kevin Ring,

768
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: the fearless leader of Families against Mandatory Minimums, and of

769
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 2: course Matthew Charles, who has been a tremendous force for

770
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: change in the brief amount of time have been out

771
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: and I know is going to go on to do

772
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: great things. So thank you again for being here. And

773
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 2: now I'd like to turn it over to you for

774
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: final thoughts. And like I said, I get to turn

775
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,479
Speaker 2: my mic off and just listen. So Kevin, how about

776
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: you go first.

777
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 7: I'll go first. I'm going to be brief because I

778
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 7: want Matthew to have more time and attention because he

779
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 7: deserves it. When I first heard about Matthew's case, I

780
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 7: was surprised that more people weren't working on it, and

781
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 7: we jumped in and a lot of people, ending with

782
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 7: you and Kim Kardashian and then the White House, everybody

783
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 7: getting involved, and it was amazing. What strikes me so

784
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 7: much about Matthew is his humility and what a decent

785
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 7: person he is and how ashamed I am that we

786
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 7: had somebody like that in prison for as long as

787
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 7: we did. And when I first met him, and he

788
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 7: agreed to come to DC and meet with lawmakers to think.

789
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 7: And we're always criticizing policymakers, we have to thank them

790
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 7: when they do the right thing. And that was a

791
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 7: really great visit when he came, and when we had

792
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 7: a chance to talk, he said, what I want to

793
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 7: do with my life is serve the poor and those

794
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 7: single parent households. That's what my life is going to be.

795
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 7: And when he was out, he had worked in a

796
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 7: pantry helping families, and that tells you all you need

797
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 7: to know about him. And we had to say, could

798
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 7: you not look for a job for six months and

799
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 7: just help us be an advocate. So we hired Matthew

800
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 7: to be a f fellow for the next six months.

801
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 7: And we've already met with the Tennessee governor, the Florida governor.

802
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 7: He's met with lawmakers, he's giving speeches, he was on

803
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 7: panel yesterday. He's in high demand, and it's just I

804
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 7: lustive of who he is. Even aside from those who

805
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 7: want to give back on criminal justice reform, he just

806
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 7: wants to be a positive.

807
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 3: Member of his community.

808
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 7: And we're grateful that he is using his voice to

809
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 7: help us on this cause for now and then he's

810
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 7: going to be the pride of Nashville when he finishes up.

811
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 7: I've worked with a lot of people in this area,

812
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 7: a lot of people who do good things and have

813
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 7: been rehabilitated. But what has struck me about Matthew's story

814
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 7: is that he has stayed grounded. He's not looking to

815
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 7: be a celebrity. He is just looking to use his

816
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 7: voice and experience in the best possible way, and we're

817
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 7: incredibly grateful for it.

818
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 5: Thank you, I thank you Jason for having me today.

819
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 6: I like to say I became known by default due

820
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 6: to the fact that my circumstances caught media attention and

821
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 6: therefore people able to hear my story. You hear the situation,

822
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 6: you say, Okay, this can't be possibly true. Then you

823
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 6: find out that it is true. A man was released

824
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 6: at serving twenty one and a half years on a

825
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 6: non violent drug offense, an offense which actually cares now

826
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 6: less than twenty years. I was given a thirty five

827
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 6: year centers for it, not being for Judge Kevin Sharp

828
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 6: allowing me to go friend twenty sixteen, nobody would even heard.

829
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 5: Of me or my story or that I had changed.

830
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 6: So I'm grateful that all of those spokes in that

831
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 6: realm were working at the time. But my situation is

832
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 6: not isolated from other people situations that are still incarcerated,

833
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 6: that don't have anybody speaking on their behalf. That's actually

834
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 6: asking how can I get some relief from a system

835
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 6: that has caused me to feel better or pressed only

836
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 6: because of the sinners, not the crime I committed, but

837
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 6: the sentence that I was imposed. I've seen them, I've

838
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 6: listened to their stories. I worked in a law library

839
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 6: where they would come up to me and ask me

840
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 6: to read letters from home, whether read from their kids,

841
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 6: or their wives or their siblings, because they didn't have

842
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 6: that educational level. So because I worked as an educational

843
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 6: tutor before I worked in the law library, I was

844
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 6: able to make friends with some people and help them

845
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 6: to write letters back home to their families, to their children,

846
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 6: as well as read their letters to them and what

847
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 6: they was receiving from their attorneys. And some of them

848
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 6: was like, I took this plea because had I not

849
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 6: took this plea, I would have been sentenced to this

850
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 6: or that, And all of those stories sounded synonymous to

851
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 6: the point that it became it was the same. This

852
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 6: person pleaded out to what they thought was less so

853
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 6: that they wouldn't get a larger sentence, but yet they

854
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 6: weren't even deserving of the senates that they were given.

855
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 5: It's just that it was a trap system.

856
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 6: Whether trap doors are closed and there's no way out

857
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 6: if that happened to you, or that happened to your child.

858
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 6: You'll want somebody to speak out on their behalf, or

859
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 6: you will want some system to change.

860
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 5: Well, that's all we want as well.

861
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 6: They want to be able to get out and get

862
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 6: back into society and regain their dignity. And so I'm

863
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 6: thankful that I was able to be out for those

864
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 6: two years. I'm thankful not that I went back those

865
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 6: seven months, but during those seven months that it took

866
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,239
Speaker 6: on a whole new realm of people looking at my

867
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 6: situation to where they were also able to present it

868
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,720
Speaker 6: to the senators and representatives saying, hey, a person can change,

869
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 6: and we have an example of.

870
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 5: Someone who has changed.

871
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 6: They would have been able to say, oh, he certainly

872
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 6: don't need to be there anymore. You got people with

873
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 6: flights sentences, You've got people with sixty years all throughout

874
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 6: the federal system, all throughout the state system. That's just

875
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 6: begging and praying and hoping, full of second chance. Everyone

876
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 6: is deserving of a second chance if they've changed.

877
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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's great that you're here being the

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00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: spokesperson that you are. And I was closed by just

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00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 2: quoting the great Brian Stevenson said, I believe everyone's better

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00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: than the worst thing they've ever done. Once again, this

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00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 2: has been a unique and special episode of Wrongful Conviction.

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00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 2: And thank you Kevin Ring Family Against Mandatory Minimums and

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00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: Matthew Charles for joining us.

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00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 5: All right, thank you for having me.

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00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

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00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.

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00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 3: It really helps.

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00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: And I'm a proud donor to the NSIS project and

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00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

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00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 2: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

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00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 2: to innisonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

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00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

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00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,320
Speaker 2: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

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00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: by three time OSCAR nominated.

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Speaker 3: Composer Jay Ralph.

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00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 2: Jason Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

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Speaker 2: in association with Signal Company Number one