WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 12 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.360 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:30.760 can make your own decisions. What's What's? What's? I'm Robert Evans, 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:32.960 this is it could happen here the show that asks 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:38.839 what's and also other questions, um more, more more meaningful 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.479 questions than that about you know, things falling apart, fixing them, 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.600 all that good stuff with me today as usual Garrison 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.879 and Chris and as is currently unusual, but will be 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:55.200 more usual every preceding month after this one. Our good 0:00:55.200 --> 0:01:01.240 friend st Andrew. St Andrew quite about but that's fine. 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.000 How are you doing today, Andrew? I'm good. I'm good. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.800 You know, it's rainy, it's chill. It's better than the 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.360 kind of hot weather we've been getting lately, so I'm good. Yeah, 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:14.039 it's raining and chill here, but that's seven months of 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:19.160 the year. Uh, I think there's slightly different uh climates 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:25.360 in Portland, Oregon and Trinidad, probably I've been told. Um, 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.760 so we have had you on a couple of weeks 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.319 back to talk about solar punk, and we're gonna be 0:01:31.319 --> 0:01:35.560 bringing you back on about twice a month to talk about, um, 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:37.560 whatever the hell you want to talk about. And so 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.440 I'm going to now hand the episode over to you, 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.680 um and trust like a little lamb that you'll lead 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:50.280 me somewhere beautiful and filled with good forage. Yes, sunshine, rainbows, 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:54.560 the promised Latin. Yeah. Okay, So I think we've all 0:01:54.600 --> 0:02:01.559 noticed that the environmental this movement kind of sucks jumping 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:06.960 into it, has not done the things that has not accomplished, 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.880 has been around for like over half a century or 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:14.120 actually really more than that, and you know, where are 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:18.640 we now? You know? Um, of course we do have 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:22.280 to confront and acknowledge that, like there's the s C 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:24.880 where oil company has literally suppressed a whole bunch of 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.800 information and you know, co opted like a lot of 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.840 the earlier movements and stuff. But we've kind of known 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:35.800 for a while now and we are still here. So 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:39.639 it's like what gives you know, Um, I think there's 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.520 kind of an interesting phenomenon that I wanted to talk 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:47.520 about today, um, known as soft climate change denial. So 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.960 are you're familiar with that or what you're thinking is 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.119 based on foot impressions? Um, I mean, yeah, I've heard 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:58.280 the term. I would think it's sort of Um, I 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.799 mean a number of different things, including the idea that like, 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.160 well there's nothing we can do, so nothing should be done, 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:09.959 you know, m hmm, yeah, what what whatous your garrison? Yeah? 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.200 Most most of my understanding of the term is like 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.040 someone like saying they like, know, the climate change is 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:22.400 the thing, Like they recognize that, but they are kind 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:27.440 of more in denial of what solutions can be done 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.440 to really change anything. That's generally understanding of the term. 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.519 When I see it like online or something, Yeah, what 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.640 about your Chris, Yeah, I usually see it. It's it's 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:41.280 like it's usually in the context of people, you know, 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.200 it can in the US there's the whole um. There's 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:47.840 whole political factions whose entire thing is saying, like, we 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:51.080 believe in science, and then they'll go talk about like 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:53.160 how much they believe in climate change, and then two 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:59.280 seconds later and around are like signings. Yeah, so that 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:04.440 That's that's my understanding of it, right. Yeah. So, according 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:09.600 to everyone's favorite source, um, Wikipedia, self climate change denial 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.080 is a state of mind acknowledging the existence of global 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:17.000 women in the abstract what remaining to some extent, impartial 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:21.920 psychological or intellectuals to nihilism about its reality or impact. 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:24.760 And something I was spoken about in my channel in 0:04:24.839 --> 0:04:27.839 my most recent video where I was talking with the 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.279 different facets of sula punk. You know what sula punk is, 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:36.120 what it needs, um, things that probably potentially drag down 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.040 the sula punk movement. I think that people have been 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:42.000 using to try to drag it down, because so the 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.760 punk is kind of building in popularity, and with anything 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.480 that builds in popularity, there are attempts from all sorts 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:52.279 of angles to co opt it and to repackage it 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.560 and com modify it and all those things. So I've 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:59.679 kind of noticed with the sugar punk phenomenon that there's 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.839 this effort by people who profess to care about the 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.960 climates and stuff to try to push it away from 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:12.760 more radical directions towards something more appealing and appeasing to 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.800 the status school into the system UM And I mean, 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.640 according to the wikipia definition. You know, it's they call 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.360 it a state of mind. I think it's also like 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:27.400 an implicit philosophy that undergodes like entire groups and entire movements. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.479 You know, so like, for example, obviously you know in 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:34.680 affects individuals, where you know, people will um miscalculated it's 0:05:34.800 --> 0:05:38.840 risks and think that climb climate change is just extra 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.440 storms or something. But then they also, like people are 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:46.920 really the movements that would neglect its urgency with just 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:54.599 these platitudes and these um direction less actions that just 0:05:54.839 --> 0:06:00.840 serve like this kind of middling reformism. Um, they underestimate 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:05.080 the extent of social change required to like mitigate climate change, 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.600 so basically don't seek to change it's out of school, 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.359 but just to sort of tweak it ever so slightly 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.680 to like capitalism with a carbon tax or something. Yeah. Um. 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.159 And then of course the people who kind of straddle 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.919 that that fence, or maybe it's more of a spectrum 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:26.039 between soft climate change Nile and hardclim change Nile, where 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:30.080 they might overestimate the extent of scientific uncertainty, so they 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.480 might think that oh well, you know, um, yeah, colob 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.479 warming is happening, but we don't exactly know how much 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.600 it's going to change the climate or how much it's 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.440 impacting our lives and that kind of thing. So they 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:47.760 basically turn it into something that's still up for debate, 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:49.640 you know. And that's why I say it kind of 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:54.000 straddles that line between soft line and hardline, because obviously 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.920 the hard climb change nihilists, they're just like, oh, well, 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:58.960 you know it doesn't exist, or if it does exist, 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.039 humans don't cause it. If you and still cool it, 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:03.479 there's nothing we can do that kind of thing. Have 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.719 you all had like experiences with soft climbs nio like, 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:11.280 and you wouldn't place no organizing? Oh yeah, yeah, I 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.320 would say, so I've encountered. Um. I mean it's kind 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.000 of a thing you encounter constantly in American politics because 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:24.720 it's it's really like often times your best option, uh, 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:27.440 in terms of like it's that or the people who 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:33.320 say that talking about climate change is socialism. Yeah, you know. 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.600 So I was in verminal Studies mature for most of 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.880 college and then I decided not to do it, and 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.520 then I got like a minor instead because like one 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.160 class often look long story, but you know, it was 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:53.680 interesting seeing it there because like you know, there there 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:56.960 were basically like two possible reactions to learning that one 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.560 was like people who you know, one way, you get 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.360 incredibly depressed and that's what I did. Or and then 0:08:04.360 --> 0:08:06.880 that's the second one was people would you know and 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:09.040 these people who like actually you know, you know, I 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.040 mean these abio studies madeas right, like these people have 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.560 spent a lot of time studying this stuff, and they 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.960 kind of like, I don't know. This is almost like 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:22.440 like this kind of intellectual retreat where you could see 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:25.520 people business just like convincing themselves that like somehow this 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.440 would be okay, and they'd like I don't know, people 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.920 would just get like completely obsessed with like electoral maps 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:32.280 and you're like no, no no, no, no, no no, okay, okay, 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.520 if if if we went exactly this number of seats 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:37.600 in this year, then like we can we can start 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.400 doing carbon credits or like, I don't know, it was 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.040 it was. It's really interesting to watch because it was 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:46.559 like it was it was I mean, because like I 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.360 think I think that there's there's like there's very there's 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:50.560 bad faith versions of it, and then I think there's 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:52.080 also versions of it that are just sort of like 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:56.040 people do not want to accept yeah, like the what's 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:59.720 necessary to stop this? And so they sort of like 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.560 that I can't even really like think about what's necessary 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.240 because because of how the education system works. And trust 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:08.880 I could go on like long runs about education system. 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:13.559 It really it really really, um it really limits people's 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.520 ability to think outside of like this very very strict 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.840 box of possibilities because you know, so much just left 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:25.000 out of UM for example, history classes and soone just 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:29.880 left out of um really all the subjects. There's this 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:34.800 very clear ideology that you're expected to come out of 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.080 the education system with. And so even when you reach 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.520 academia and high education and stuff, you're still stuck with 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.440 that mode of thinking. And even as you're presented with 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:50.000 all this new information, because your brain currentally like handle 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:53.680 like the great extent of what climate change is, you know, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:57.040 it kind of retreats into this sort of simple kind 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.959 of Oh, we just need to vote, because voting is 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.720 all I know, voting is all the tools to do. 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.679 Voting is politics, and politics is voting. That's the extent 0:10:07.760 --> 0:10:12.320 of it, right, Yeah, It's like this weird form of 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.800 self preservation that people need to do in order to 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:19.680 kind of like keep their keep them from in their mind, 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:21.719 you know, like spiraling out of control, because this is 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:23.920 the only thing that you know, they have. They need 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:25.559 to focus on their own life right now and their 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.199 own current problems. And if they think about this because 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:31.800 this like large looming threat too much, it just freaks 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:33.800 you out right. And you have in order to keep 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.240 or to just keep going on with your life. A 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.760 lot of people like segment off this type of thing 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.400 in their own brain so that you know, manifests in 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.199 a lot of cases, and this kind of soft denial 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.280 so that you can just keep on going. Yeah. Yeah, 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:51.080 And I see with with friends, and I see with 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:53.520 the family. You know, obviously they are the handful of 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.400 people who still, at least in my experience, we still 0:10:56.400 --> 0:10:59.720 deny climate change. But there's like a bigger portion of 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:04.480 people who's whole understanding climate change is just this or 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.080 what we just need to recycle and we just need 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.760 to like switch to electric vehicles and once we do that, 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.640 you know we'll be okay. Um, which is tweak a 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.120 couple of things, get some solar panels and yeah, you know, 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.520 the understanding of it has been completely limited to like 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:28.440 this very restricted conversation that is like um basically cultivated 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:33.840 by certain interest groups and certain um lobbying groups and 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.160 that kind of thing. You know, Yeah, the only a 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.400 certain amount of change is allowed, and that's what we're 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.040 allowed to think. So that's what we're like shown for 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.520 examples of in like media and pop culture or whatever. Right, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:48.440 So this is you know, this is kind of what 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.640 you know, like all of the YouTubers who got money 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:55.520 from Bill Gates when Bill Gates wrote his climate book, right, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.560 all of the things that they were talking about. It's like, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.680 it's like this kind of stuff because the only way 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:03.080 for Bill Gates to keep his money well you know, 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.000 talking about climate change is to have these kind of 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.880 half assed like solutions that are actually deny the impending 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.160 reality and deny that. No, the only way to actually 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.959 fix it is by taking all his money, um, which 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:19.080 he's not as big a fan of. Yeah, I mean, 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.520 have you all seen the Cuska sucked video on climate 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.959 change and economy? Coming want climate change socks in a nutshell? 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:32.000 It's like this like that, so people can find it, 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.920 but people will I think people people know. I think 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:38.120 a lot a lot of people know what it is. 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.280 Or you can just search in a nutshell on YouTube. 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:45.320 It's key you are. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try. 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:50.400 You are. No, it's ku r g was it ku 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.880 r z? I think it's ku r z g E 0:12:55.360 --> 0:13:01.559 s A A G t A Right, it is, it is. 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:03.960 It is a weird one. But what what what are 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:08.400 you talking about? The can you fix Climate change? Yeah? Yeah, 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.520 where the whole thesis is basically vote with your ballots 0:13:12.520 --> 0:13:15.440 and vote with your wallet. Yeah, that's the only thing 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.720 that you're really allowed, right, Yeah, And I believe this 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.840 is one of the videos sponsored by they put this, um, yeah, 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:24.640 they did. It was and then they had this whole 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.920 line about some people think we need to change like 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.200 our system from climate ch from from capitalism, but we're 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:33.000 not so sure about that. We don't know the answer. 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.679 So it's just been like shrug towards maybe system, it's 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:39.760 from with the system. But they basically gave it no attention. 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.920 You know. But their channel is literally about like quite 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.040 deep into research about things, So it's very obvious that 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.240 if they spent no time like doing any kind of 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.760 research into like why people have the system and critique 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:55.800 that obviously Bill Kate's hand is very deep in their pockets. 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.119 You know, because I believe that I believe the researchers 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.360 actually kind of that, but they're not. They just can't 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.400 say yeah, and I mean like, yeah, I think they're 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.360 making the bargain a lot of people make where they're like, Okay, well, 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:12.360 if we can push for you know, the immediate necessary changes, 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.760 we can worry about, you know, stuff like that later on. 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.440 It's it's just important to get something done, um, and 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:22.040 so we'll compromise and will not will not call for 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.080 what we know is actually necessary to deal with the problem. 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.520 We'll just we'll just go with a half measure because 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.800 at least it's something we've got to do something now. Right. 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.520 The thing that's always been very grim about that to 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.880 me is like you look about how how that plays out, right, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:41.160 And it's always like, well, okay, so our our half 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.200 measure is gonna be we're gonna we're gonna just like 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.280 put put put a monetary value on indigenous forests so 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:49.960 that governments can like steal them and get paid for 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.080 taking the land. And it's never stuff like why don't 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:58.280 we like make more marshes, which is you know, if 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.400 if you're gonna talk about stuff that like could actually 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:03.000 be done, right, It's like, okay, well look but what 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.000 do re marshing do we? What? Like? That's that that 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.440 stuff like is easy and doesn't need you know, you 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.680 don't literally have to overthrow capitalism to get people to 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.880 like restore marshes. But it never happens because this that's 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:15.400 you know, the whole basis of the sort of soft 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.720 denialism stuff is not actually you know, it's not actually 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:20.240 the type of solve climate change. They just want to 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:26.960 make money and it's extremely grim. Yeah. Yeah, there's this 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:31.800 video that the storyteller is this YouTuber Um he did 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:38.000 recently on co opting movements, and he was explaining that, um, 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.360 with the March in Washington right during the Civil rights movement, Um, 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:46.320 that was an organic movement that you know, the people 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:52.760 had come up with, right, but obviously a mass movement. Yeah, 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.920 FI isn't gonna just sit back and let that happen, right, 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.800 So they brought in these leaders. Um they're called the 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:03.040 Big Six, and um, the story teller was explaining that 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:08.440 basically they were paid to co opt the march to 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.200 basically become its figureheads and its leaders. They hadn't organized 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.480 it themselves, but they came on afterwards and became the 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.800 leaders of the march and read the speeches that they 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.080 were supposed to read, that kind of thing, and so 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:27.000 that sort of mass movement was basically defound like that. 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.440 I mean, obviously reforms were made and you know, Civil 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.640 Rights Act was passed. But then, you know, after all 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:39.680 that happened, and MLK got disillusioned by the system as 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.480 a whole and wanted to start pushing even harder against 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:49.000 capitalism and whatnot. That's when well, coincidentally, he got a bullet, 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:56.600 you know. So I think it's interesting that these movements 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.880 they're able, they're they're comfortable with these movements up to 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.240 a certain point. Um, and comfortable easily is going these 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.480 sitting directions as to a certain point. But then when 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:10.159 you actually start poising a threat to this out of school, 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:14.760 that's when you know, you become a problem in like community. 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.960 Not to see that, Okay, it wasn't a threat to 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.760 this out of school, but just to say that, you know, um, 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.200 there was. They have certain limits that they don't want 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:30.160 people to cross. Yeah, Capitalism one of the things that's 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.520 that makes it such a robust system in terms of 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.119 its ability to to not get overthrown or destroyed? Is 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.520 that up to a certain point. It loves dissent, It 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:45.840 loves anti capitalism because you can market that very easily. 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.000 Like there's a lot of money in in in anti capitalism, 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:52.040 there's a lot of money and being critical of the system. 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.720 It's just when you hit a certain point, um, then 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.159 it then it becomes you know, the CIA or the 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:04.720 FBI or some person who's been um convinced to shoot 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.800 use problem like it. There's a there's a point at 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.720 which uh, that's no longer accepted, but quite a bit 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.280 of criticism and even like agitation to change or end 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.800 the system can be accepted because it's monetize herbal and 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.800 speaking of that, you know what time it is? Time 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:31.880 for a serious absolutely is oh boy, time for an 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.320 ad or or that's the CIA at the door. We 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.480 won't know until we come back from break. Ah, we're back. 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:44.200 It wasn't the CIA this time. Good news, guys, thankfully. 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:46.720 I mean the fact that they flew all the way 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.680 down just to meet me. I'm on it, honestly. Oh, 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.200 I mean they've come to trend a dad for less. 0:18:53.880 --> 0:19:01.440 Oh that's true. Yeah, yeah, But like we were saying, right, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:06.600 there's this whole issue of these movements being able to 0:19:07.200 --> 0:19:09.320 go in a certain direction, but only up to a 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.280 certain point. Um. And I think it's something that Peter 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:16.200 Gallus also talks about in how non violence protects the state, 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:21.200 in the sense of, you know, these people are able 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:25.439 to once they get a certain level of attention, all 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.280 of a sudden, you know, you're invited to speak of 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:31.720 these events, and you're invited to go this place and that, 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:39.719 and you basically get consumed into the workshop machine, the 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:44.680 angio machine, and the climate conference machine kind of things. 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.000 So you end up with all these figures, these organizers, 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:50.680 these activists who go from like generally trying to organize 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.240 their communities and their spaces, and then before you know it, 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:58.320 they're like at such and such a conference because well, 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.960 they think it's an opportunity to actually make like a 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:05.080 bigger change. But in reality, you know, they just there 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:10.560 too be defound. You know. Like, for example, who mainly 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:13.480 comes to mind is like Greta Thunberg. I mean, I 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.520 haven't looked at deeply into her past or anything. Um. 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:19.000 I know they are certain right wingers who are very 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:24.040 obsessed with her, but I know that she recently said 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:30.600 that she's kind of done with politicians. UM. Because when 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.679 you think of how she basically came up, you know, 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.639 right exactly, think what how she basically came up. It 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:42.720 was like she is talking at these events and you know, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:44.520 people are in fighting out the things because you know, 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:47.520 look at look at this cute little google UM yelling 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:51.840 about climate change, right, and she basically becomes this spectacle, 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:57.000 you know, and that spectacle is entertained up to the 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:02.199 point people make big event out of her, you know, 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:04.639 like breaking down in front of these positions and stuff, 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:09.280 and you know what, they just go right back to normal. UM. 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:11.760 I think it was copy was like last week or 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:19.080 the week before UM and representatives from representative I think 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.719 the Prime Minister of Barbados was there and she had this, 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:25.919 you know, a great speech about how the global nothings 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:29.400 do more for you know, these countries and Goloble South 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:34.000 because you know they have responsibility. That kind of thing. Cool. Um. 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:38.280 But at the same time, you know there's like developments 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:41.720 going on Barbados too, you know, basically bring in more 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:44.399 tourists and to bring in more um and like you know, 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:48.240 resorts building and that kind of thing that basically add 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:54.440 to the UM emissions and add to the UM negative 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:57.000 impact in the environment. You know, same thing with like 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:01.320 Trn's government, you know, like representatives that would went to Copy, 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:04.879 including the Prime Minister, and you know they're all about 0:22:05.040 --> 0:22:08.919 things changing and you know, the climate movement um and 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:11.679 the climate change being real and the actions need to 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:14.320 be taken. And then like this didn't make it in 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.840 like like mainstream news of course, but in local news. 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:22.520 Basically right after primester tryan to veagle dos Keith Rowley, 0:22:22.960 --> 0:22:27.480 he went and met up with like Shell. Yeah, like 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:31.040 representatives at Shell to like basically bring the country and 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:35.960 the company closer together, you know, um, because you know 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:38.000 not is reliant and oil and that kind of thing. 0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:44.720 So obviously these sort of leaders and these sorts of movements, 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:48.240 they only go up to a certain point. And even then, 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:52.639 so much of it is just this performance yeah, and 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:58.280 this um act. Basically I'll be I'm putting together a 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:02.920 thing on copies six right now, UM because I think 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:06.359 it actually it does demonstrate a lot of the soft 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:09.600 denial stuff that you're talking about. Like the biggest thing 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:11.800 to come out of COP twenty six in terms of 0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:16.720 like actual deals is just uh progress on carbon markets 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:19.920 and carbon offset credits. That's there. That's really the only 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:23.680 thing we actually got. Um. And they say, but not 0:23:23.680 --> 0:23:25.600 not like us, but like you know, the people in charge, 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:29.119 they they got this and and the the the quote 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.800 they gave was that the being able to buy carbon 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:36.760 offset credits, meaning that like you don't actually make emissions differences. 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.680 So they staid, you you buy pretend emissions differences from 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:43.560 other countries that actually did make changes, um, so that 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:46.480 you don't get penalized. So that's it's buying the credits far. 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.560 But they said, they said, buying the credits can potentially 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:53.639 unlock trillions of dollars for protecting trees, expanding renewable energy, 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:59.359 and other pludgets a combat climate change. It's it's like, 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:04.880 don't climate credits. It's like, um, it's the same as 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:07.920 saying like, hail Mary's because you sinned and you went 0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:10.960 to your priest and confessed. It's like, I've I've I've 0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:13.360 done bad things to the environment. Tell me like how 0:24:13.359 --> 0:24:15.560 many times I need to go through this ritual in 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:18.960 order to in order to cleanse myself of having compen 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:23.040 into the atmosphere. Exactly. I think it's bleaker than that 0:24:23.080 --> 0:24:25.200 in a lot of ways, like it's it's, it's, it's, it's, 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.600 it's it's really it's the climate version of like the 0:24:27.640 --> 0:24:32.920 World Wildlife Fund having death squads. Okay, now, Chris, you 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.159 are a very anti death squad, and I think we 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:37.840 need to deal with that at some point because hashtag 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:43.119 not all death squads. Yes, my mother will need to 0:24:43.119 --> 0:24:45.720 be able to account for by strong anti death squad stance. 0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:48.760 This is a yeah, you say that now, but you're 0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:50.760 gonna get a death squad to fight the death squads, 0:24:50.760 --> 0:24:55.800 and then where are you be going to be? Sea? 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:01.840 But you get they get a death squad to fight 0:25:01.880 --> 0:25:03.560 your death squad, and then it's just like they can't 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:04.920 sel each other out, and then you have to get 0:25:04.920 --> 0:25:14.200 another death squad, and then Marxist lendinis um. Yeah, it's 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:18.560 a number of other things too, to be fair to Marxism. 0:25:19.040 --> 0:25:21.280 Another thing that might make you kind of question the 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:25.800 integrity of CUT is that there were more delegates at 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:29.040 Cup six from fossil field companies than there were from 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:35.280 any individual nation. That makes sense, But then right, that's 0:25:35.320 --> 0:25:37.679 like another thing, right, because you're talking about six and 0:25:37.720 --> 0:25:40.359 we have soft climate change denil gets into that, But 0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:44.000 I don't think. I think seft FIM change denial can 0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:46.480 only be applied so far when it comes to those 0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:50.040 sorts of big spectacles and those big major events. Because 0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:55.000 even if they themselves really truly understand the depths of 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:59.040 climate change and trust and believe like these wild barns 0:25:59.080 --> 0:26:01.479 and stuff, they knew, like they have all the infull 0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:04.760 right present front of them. They've done they're already done there, 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:08.719 like cost benefit analyses and like risk assessments and kind 0:26:08.760 --> 0:26:11.000 of thing, so they know exactly like what the impact 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:12.199 is going to be. They have the money to have 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:16.360 access to the scientists, right, But it's not soft clime 0:26:16.440 --> 0:26:20.560 change denial for them. It's I'm a capitalist. I'm going 0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:23.119 to do what a capitalist does. You know, it's ultimately 0:26:23.800 --> 0:26:27.000 a funct Wait, they're operating within a system, you know, 0:26:27.080 --> 0:26:30.080 so soft time changenial um it is like sort of 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:32.680 a psychological phenomenon. But we also to keep in mind 0:26:32.680 --> 0:26:36.080 the day is also like a structural component to it. 0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:39.480 See that even if they're a person does not face 0:26:39.520 --> 0:26:41.720 self clanis change. Now it's an experiencing self clans change 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:45.520 denial that alone, even if they're like fully confront the 0:26:45.640 --> 0:26:49.720 sue that's just an individual, you know, and there's still 0:26:49.760 --> 0:26:52.920 like a whole structure around that individual that will still 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:57.959 incentivize certain behavior. And then of course with the incentives 0:26:57.960 --> 0:27:03.479 of certain behavior comes like the psychological justifications for that behavior. 0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:07.720 So it kind of almost becomes at the end of 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:12.320 justifying themselves into selft climate change denile, you know what 0:27:12.359 --> 0:27:14.080 I mean. So it's kind of like it's like a 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:18.520 fluid that it's like a feedback loop that reinforces its 0:27:18.560 --> 0:27:24.800 own existence. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I think that honestly, 0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:27.600 like the feedback loop model is where we have a 0:27:27.600 --> 0:27:29.920 lot of our problems with the climate change are they're 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:33.399 all very much linked to the feedback loop model of 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:36.800 things trying to justify their own existence. And then you know, 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:39.280 certain and then on the reverse side of things, you know, 0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:41.960 when certain changes in the climate happen, those create their 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:44.280 own feedback loops which create more changes to happen. It's 0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:51.200 like everything everything one one massive loop. Yeah. Shall I 0:27:51.240 --> 0:27:55.400 gets me to like there's the discourse around climate change 0:27:55.440 --> 0:28:01.320 and stuff is like halted and divoted and immobilized you know, 0:28:01.440 --> 0:28:03.919 by soft climate change denial. You know, discussions are the 0:28:04.040 --> 0:28:07.959 very real, very current very near future and very violent 0:28:08.040 --> 0:28:13.760 impacts of climate change just basically softened, like like you 0:28:13.760 --> 0:28:17.200 know when you try to throw a punch in a dream. Yeah, 0:28:17.359 --> 0:28:19.040 like you're trying to like push, and then it's like, 0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:24.159 you know, it's like this kind of soft um or 0:28:24.240 --> 0:28:26.680 like you throw something in space. I guess it's just 0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:28.600 you put all this effort into it and then you 0:28:28.640 --> 0:28:30.520 go in another direction that kind of thing. Um, I 0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:32.000 don't know what I'm going with this analogy, so I'll 0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:37.080 just keep on going. Um. Basically that there's an issue 0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:40.800 with the conversation, with the discourse has just been you know, 0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:46.120 harmed by the psychological phenomenon. But of course there's the 0:28:46.160 --> 0:28:49.040 other side of psychological phenomenon of soft clim engine nial, 0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:53.400 not the hard climngine genial side, but rather the I'm 0:28:53.440 --> 0:28:55.440 so on the opposite end of soft clian chine nil 0:28:55.560 --> 0:29:01.480 that I'm like an inconsolable and like illogical and I 0:29:01.560 --> 0:29:06.920 can't even imagine the possibility of anything happening kind of yeah. Yeah, 0:29:06.960 --> 0:29:09.680 the kind of the kind of extreme dumerism where you 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:13.560 you recognize how you organize that climtage is bad, um, 0:29:13.600 --> 0:29:16.320 but then you you see it as such a massive 0:29:16.440 --> 0:29:18.800 overwhelming thing that basically shuts you down from be able 0:29:18.840 --> 0:29:21.040 to do anything else, and you just like, exactly, there's 0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:22.640 really no point to do anything if it's going to 0:29:22.720 --> 0:29:24.720 be this bad. There's really no one's you know, it's 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.160 such a hard capitalism and the systems that are working 0:29:28.160 --> 0:29:30.440 to keep it going or such a hard thing to 0:29:30.480 --> 0:29:33.880 overcome that it seems like the best thing to do 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:37.600 is just sit down and do nothing. Yeah, and that's 0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:42.440 the thing, right, Like these are slash collapse people, right, Um. 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:44.920 I mean I appreciate that they don't shy away from 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:48.360 like the really difficult stuff, and they also stumble into 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.720 this kind of like coop that's dumorism, Like it's dramatic 0:29:51.800 --> 0:29:54.720 kind of we are screwed, We're all going to be 0:29:54.800 --> 0:29:57.360 fight saying this mad Max style arena. Like that's not 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:00.360 how you know Climbine is going to play. You know, 0:30:00.440 --> 0:30:02.800 it's not a movie. You know, like things are going 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:05.560 to break down in certain places and other places are 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:08.280 gonna locked down in sutain ways, but it's not going 0:30:08.320 --> 0:30:14.080 to be like this Suddain global devolution into madness like that. 0:30:14.640 --> 0:30:18.560 You know, that's not really how social change that's already 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:22.719 how collapses have you know, functional history. You know, of 0:30:22.760 --> 0:30:25.560 course we live in a like a global civilization, and 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:29.719 previous collapses have been fairly localized. But still, you know, 0:30:30.160 --> 0:30:33.680 climate change is both global and local, so there are 0:30:33.680 --> 0:30:37.800 certain changes it will only affects it in localities. This 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:42.280 is something that actually the book Desert addresses fairly well, 0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:45.640 and I find it frustra from yeah, yeah, because I 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:48.760 find really frustrating because, especially on the online left, there's 0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:51.840 people who treat desert like the gospel, or at least 0:30:51.880 --> 0:30:55.760 they say they do, but they're actually extreme doomers who 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:59.720 fetishize collapse, um, and they're like, oh, everything is hopeless. 0:30:59.760 --> 0:31:05.160 Read desert but then you but then, but desert is 0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:09.080 like explicitly anti collapse. Same collapse isn't gonna happen. Collapse 0:31:09.160 --> 0:31:12.280 is a fantasy you tell yourself to keep you going. 0:31:12.800 --> 0:31:17.120 And for this kind haven't heard of desert. Desert is 0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:22.200 a book that's available for free online about what's coming um. 0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:25.400 It's titled Desert because of an old quote about how 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:29.000 empires um leave nothing but deserts in their wake. Basically 0:31:29.080 --> 0:31:32.240 like that's it's it's just like a thing that that empire. 0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:34.480 I think the exact quote is like empires make a 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.840 desert and call it peace. Um. And it's it's basically 0:31:37.880 --> 0:31:42.800 discussing the fact like not just literal desertification, but like, um, 0:31:42.840 --> 0:31:45.560 that that's more of a more of a better picture 0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:47.800 of like our future under climate change than kind of 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:52.200 these these mad max dreams this like slow dissolution of 0:31:52.440 --> 0:31:56.680 resources and uh environments. Um. And that that's kind of 0:31:56.680 --> 0:31:58.880 the Yeah, it's a it's a good book. You can 0:31:58.880 --> 0:32:03.200 read it yourself, and it's it's quite influential online. Um. 0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:05.800 But yeah, as as Garrison pointed out, there are people 0:32:05.800 --> 0:32:08.360 who kind of take it in a in a direction 0:32:08.400 --> 0:32:10.760 that I don't believe the authors. I mean clearly the 0:32:10.760 --> 0:32:13.680 authors didn't mean, because they directly called out that kind 0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:17.640 of thinking. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like some people 0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:21.360 treat like collapse and stuff as basically the secular version 0:32:21.720 --> 0:32:27.200 of like revelation in the Bible. Yeah yeah, or it's 0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:31.000 or it's like the non markets version of like the revolution. 0:32:31.280 --> 0:32:34.600 It's like it's like this this kind of mythical event 0:32:34.800 --> 0:32:38.760 to like prepare for and almost be excited for, but 0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:42.280 like it's it's fake, it's a fantasy. It's it's something 0:32:42.280 --> 0:32:45.480 we tell ourselves to keep ourselves going as things are bad, 0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:49.280 but it's not it's it's not real. Yeah, like any 0:32:49.360 --> 0:32:51.520 d you know, the trumpets will sound in the heavens 0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:54.520 and the screws will be broken, and the great, the 0:32:54.600 --> 0:32:56.720 great beast will arise from the sea and you know 0:32:56.800 --> 0:32:59.800 all that fame. Yeah, And I I don't know what 0:32:59.880 --> 0:33:02.080 the solution is for that. I I don't know how 0:33:02.240 --> 0:33:05.160 both on the soft climate denial side of like, how 0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:07.800 do you go about? How do you go about It's 0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:09.480 like the only thing we can really do is the people, 0:33:09.600 --> 0:33:11.320 you know, we know, how how do we go about 0:33:11.880 --> 0:33:15.440 and tell them that, hey, things are probably gonna be 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:17.800 a bit worse and which you're preparing for um, And 0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:20.440 how do we tell the people who are doomers, Hey, 0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:25.000 it's not gonna be like this weird dystopian thing that 0:33:25.040 --> 0:33:28.560 you're thinking of. Either, it's like it's it's it's interesting 0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:31.320 because like they're both veering off in two opposite directions, 0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:34.720 but it both kind of leads to the same point 0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:37.800 of kind of doing nothing. But one version. One version 0:33:37.800 --> 0:33:40.400 of nothing is basically you know, voting for stuff that's 0:33:40.400 --> 0:33:43.240 not that's never gonna happen. The other version is not 0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:47.400 just not doing anything in general. Um, And I I 0:33:47.440 --> 0:33:52.160 don't know how to how to reach those types of 0:33:52.360 --> 0:33:56.320 people very easily. Yeah, which kind of brings me to 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:59.400 like my thoughts on like how we move past soft 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:04.120 climate gene nil Um. I don't think it's just a 0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:12.280 matter of like trying to like push like campaigns on people. 0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:15.680 I think it's gonna be like a very personal sort 0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:18.200 of journey that each person has to go through, right, 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:20.440 because each wisnes is different. Each wisnes is like has 0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:23.959 different worries and dealing things in a different way, you know. Um, 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:25.800 So like you want to keep in mind like people's 0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:32.440 mental health and sort of fortifying your mental health and 0:34:32.480 --> 0:34:36.960 helping people fortified days. Because when it comes to mental 0:34:36.960 --> 0:34:40.440 health with regard to like climate change, doing it an 0:34:40.480 --> 0:34:45.279 isolation in my experience has not really worked out. I 0:34:45.320 --> 0:34:48.120 think what has worked best for me is when I 0:34:48.160 --> 0:34:50.680 am with why I am connected with a group of 0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:54.120 people or even just one other person, and when I'm 0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:58.800 feeling down about climate change. Because despite all my messages 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:00.600 about sula punk and you know, we can do this 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:03.200 like that that's basically the message of my YouTube channel. 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:06.800 You know, I still experience like those sort of thoughts 0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:11.080 and feelings public about it. But what I try to 0:35:11.120 --> 0:35:15.719 do is when I'm feeling those things, I try to 0:35:15.719 --> 0:35:18.640 be with people who are not currently feeding that, you know, 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:22.120 so we're not feeding all of each other's next of energies. Yeah, 0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:24.279 so like when I'm in a bad spot, you know, 0:35:24.480 --> 0:35:26.520 people are on who could lift me up, and when 0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:29.360 they about d and about spot because it kind of 0:35:29.400 --> 0:35:33.600 comes and weaves, you know, yeah, absolutely, no, Yeah, it's 0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:37.520 it's it's silly to deny those thoughts exist because they do. 0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:41.080 Like they're they're very they're a very easy neutral state 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:44.799 at least for me to slip into um. And the 0:35:44.960 --> 0:35:48.560 way to get around that is by doing chores at 0:35:48.560 --> 0:35:53.400 a farm and shoveling poop and taking care of animals 0:35:53.520 --> 0:35:55.880 and cooking for people. That's like the way that I 0:35:56.360 --> 0:35:58.480 get out of that kind of mindset. And you know, 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.560 not not to be too hard on all of the 0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:05.480 kind of doomer nihilists, because there there is there, there 0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:07.960 is a there's this there's like a sect of like 0:36:08.040 --> 0:36:11.240 doomer nihilists who use like the actual definition of nihilism, 0:36:11.239 --> 0:36:14.040 which is like if if things don't really matter, we 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:17.720 should probably fux some stuff up, um, And that's very useful, 0:36:17.840 --> 0:36:19.759 right like if if if you're if, if you're on 0:36:19.800 --> 0:36:22.120 that train and you're like, yeah, you should be tree 0:36:22.160 --> 0:36:24.520 spiking if if if if you're okay with if you 0:36:24.520 --> 0:36:27.800 think nothing matters, um, and you are you want to 0:36:27.800 --> 0:36:29.920 be an actual nihilist, then yeah you should make you 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:33.719 should make destroy um. Just make sure it's focused on 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:36.839 the people with actual power, UM. Because if if you're 0:36:36.880 --> 0:36:39.040 willing to do that, then great, we need we need 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:41.520 as many as many people like that as possible. But 0:36:41.560 --> 0:36:43.880 it's certainly easier to do that once you have friends 0:36:44.200 --> 0:36:47.040 and once you're not stuck in this super depressed state 0:36:47.080 --> 0:36:52.320 all the time. Yeah, and um, I think there's a again. 0:36:52.400 --> 0:36:54.680 We we we do take a look at like some 0:36:54.760 --> 0:36:56.920 of the criticisms people have a the show online, And 0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:58.560 I know one that's come up a bunch is people 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:01.560 will listen to like our when when we'll talk about, 0:37:01.760 --> 0:37:04.560 you know, the severity of the problems and then we'll 0:37:04.600 --> 0:37:07.880 talk about things like you know, mutual aid collectives and 0:37:08.000 --> 0:37:10.759 small guards, seed bombings and all that stuff, they'll be like, well, 0:37:10.760 --> 0:37:14.160 that's not a solution, And no, of course that's not 0:37:14.200 --> 0:37:17.600 going to solve the global problem of carbon emissions from 0:37:17.640 --> 0:37:22.120 a civilization of seven billion humans. What it does do 0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:26.160 focusing on stuff like that, focusing on building soil UM, 0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:29.359 focusing on building community resistance. In addition to like having 0:37:29.400 --> 0:37:31.840 an immediate impact on the number of people you know 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:36.880 in in in your community, it builds a sense of um, 0:37:36.920 --> 0:37:41.520 a sense of power for the individual. It. It gives 0:37:41.520 --> 0:37:43.920 you something to do that isn't just thinking about how 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:46.520 bad things are, and that puts you in a mind 0:37:46.560 --> 0:37:49.759 state that's more useful to actually potentially dealing with the 0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:52.960 bigger problems. At some point. UM, you have to have 0:37:53.000 --> 0:37:55.839 a sense of your own agency that feels real if 0:37:55.840 --> 0:38:00.000 you're going to actually change anything UM, and you can. 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:02.680 You can build it's a muscle, right. You can build 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:06.400 it up by by doing things that are not bigger 0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:10.839 but are are part of the solution. UM. And it's 0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:14.200 exactly valuable to do that for your own for your 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:17.720 own mental health, because then maybe you if you're maybe 0:38:17.760 --> 0:38:20.719 if if if your friend group, if your your affinity group, 0:38:20.760 --> 0:38:22.479 whatever you wanna call it, the people you are hanging 0:38:22.520 --> 0:38:25.200 out with, if some of them are always engaged in 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:28.239 something productive, then when you're in a doomed spiral. You 0:38:28.280 --> 0:38:33.160 can find someone who's working on something um and vice versa. Yeah, 0:38:33.280 --> 0:38:35.520 and it doesn't just help your mental health, but it 0:38:35.560 --> 0:38:39.879 also contributes to the pre figurative activities that we need 0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:42.960 to actually make a switch to a different system. You know, 0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:47.480 like revolution is something that happens overnight or in a future. 0:38:47.480 --> 0:38:49.840 It's something that's supposed to be happening all now because 0:38:50.360 --> 0:38:53.760 as we build those systems, you know, we are building 0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:56.600 up power. You know, it's kind of like how the 0:38:56.640 --> 0:38:59.200 black socialst in America described to a power you know 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:01.440 s we have lindy systems and putting these things in 0:39:01.440 --> 0:39:08.040 place so that we can push towards like fundamental transmission. 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:13.040 This system it's it's rative, but a small people build 0:39:13.080 --> 0:39:16.239 on top of that, you know, that's how the transmission happens. 0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:20.680 We all also need to contribute. I mean, I think 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:25.160 it's it's it's important to talk about this both to acknowledge, 0:39:25.280 --> 0:39:27.680 like it's a thing that happens and we all deal with. 0:39:27.719 --> 0:39:31.160 We all have our moments of like overwhelming despair over 0:39:31.360 --> 0:39:34.759 what's happening, um and and at some some moments of 0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:39.160 unrealistic optimism too. Yeah, everyone's in a while and the 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:44.040 unrealistic optimism needs to be encouraged UM, as long as 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:45.719 it's not the kind of what we don't need to 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:49.279 do anything because someone's I guess there's toxic optimism and 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:51.640 there's helpful. A toxic optimism would be like reading an 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:55.479 article about some new carbon capture technology and being like, oh, cool, 0:39:55.520 --> 0:39:59.240 well I don't need to worry. UM. But but most 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:03.680 optimism I think is positive UM. And I think it's 0:40:03.719 --> 0:40:06.680 good to build a capacity for optimism by by building 0:40:06.719 --> 0:40:10.279 your your personal sense of of agency and power, by 0:40:10.320 --> 0:40:13.439 by doing ship that helps UM. And I think that 0:40:14.040 --> 0:40:18.200 accepting that you can do things that are meaningful UM, 0:40:18.239 --> 0:40:21.520 and that uh there are things to be done that 0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:25.160 can help the situation is a critical way of fighting 0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:30.920 against you know this uh soft climate change denial, which 0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:35.359 which is a UM, a major threat because there's I think, 0:40:35.400 --> 0:40:38.759 honestly at this point more people who are subscribing to 0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:41.640 some form of soft climate change denial than there are 0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:45.759 people who are uh just denying climate change and its 0:40:45.880 --> 0:40:49.840 entirety UM. And that's I think where a lot of 0:40:49.840 --> 0:40:52.680 the effort has to go. So I yeah, I think 0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:54.880 this is a really important thing for people to understand 0:40:55.000 --> 0:41:00.600 and to be vigilant against absolutely. Yeah. All right, well, Andrew, 0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:05.120 where can the audience find you outside of me here 0:41:05.200 --> 0:41:07.759 right now? Yeah? So you can find me on my 0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:10.600 YouTube channel st Andrew's um, and you can find me 0:41:10.600 --> 0:41:14.640 on Twitter at und School of Sture. Excellent. Well, you 0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:17.640 can find us here where you just found us. We'll 0:41:17.680 --> 0:41:20.359 be here tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, in which 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:23.960 case we'll be here on Monday. UM. I have a 0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:28.000 have a good you know life, have a good life. 0:41:28.960 --> 0:41:44.239 Take care. All right, welcome to it could happen here 0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:49.160 a podcast about things falling apart and also sometimes about 0:41:49.160 --> 0:41:51.680 how things have been falling apart for a while now, 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:58.400 and today we're gonna talk about how things were also 0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:00.800 bad in falling apart in the two thousands, which a 0:42:00.920 --> 0:42:04.960 profoundly cursed time period. And specifically we're going to talk 0:42:05.000 --> 0:42:08.000 about I think a part of the anti war movement 0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:11.719 that does not get much attention, um, which is the 0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:17.600 port militarization resistance that happened sort of two and with 0:42:17.680 --> 0:42:21.359 us today to talk about this is two people who 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:26.279 were part of this movement. If Juliana Newhauser hello, and 0:42:26.320 --> 0:42:30.520 Brendan Maslaska's done. Yeah, both of whom were organizers and 0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:34.640 activists while this was going on. Yeah, and I thank 0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:36.879 thank you, thank you both for being here. Yeah, thanks 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:39.759 for having us so. Yeah, as as I was saying 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:41.560 a bit in the intro, I think that this is 0:42:41.600 --> 0:42:44.040 a part of the anti war movement that is not 0:42:44.320 --> 0:42:46.000 very well known. I think I think a lot of 0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:48.319 people know about the initial stuff happened in two dozen three, 0:42:48.600 --> 0:42:52.560 and people might know about some of the stuff that 0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:56.879 was happening against the war in Afghanistan but right when 0:42:56.920 --> 0:42:59.680 it started, but I don't think most people know that 0:42:59.760 --> 0:43:02.000 it like you know, even after Chils and three sort 0:43:02.040 --> 0:43:05.680 of doesn't work, that it continues and it continues sort 0:43:05.719 --> 0:43:08.960 of informs that are that are very interesting, and so, 0:43:09.000 --> 0:43:12.239 like I guess I want you to start out, I 0:43:12.280 --> 0:43:18.000 want to ask how we sort of got from the 0:43:18.080 --> 0:43:20.040 early part of the anti war movement into this and 0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:23.200 how usually got involved. I would say that there's this 0:43:23.320 --> 0:43:26.680 narrative about the women against the word Iraq, that there 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:30.480 is the largest protests in human history, at least at 0:43:30.520 --> 0:43:33.040 that point. I don't know if it's still true against 0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:38.359 the invasion, and then it didn't work and everyone kind 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:44.040 of went home and ended there and to a certain extent, 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:47.560 that's true. But like you said, the people that didn't 0:43:47.600 --> 0:43:52.359 go home went an interesting direction. And UM so at 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:57.520 the time there were direct action was not as acceptable 0:43:57.640 --> 0:44:02.240 as it is now. The or this movement was largely 0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:08.040 dominated either by UM big liberal coalitions or PSL front 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:12.080 groups that were basically indistinguishable and what they actually did, 0:44:12.120 --> 0:44:16.760 which was basically nothing and in the best of cases 0:44:16.800 --> 0:44:20.440 and in the worst of cases, kind of insurgency. UM. 0:44:20.480 --> 0:44:26.799 But then there were small groups of people that at 0:44:27.760 --> 0:44:30.320 when we saw that it didn't work, and we saw 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:35.359 that these giant, peaceful marches from one part of town 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:39.600 to another UM or voting for John Kerry or whatever, 0:44:39.600 --> 0:44:46.279 it didn't work, that we started to look for other options. Yeah, 0:44:46.360 --> 0:44:50.040 and uh, you know, I got involved, you know, i'd 0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:53.799 say with the anti war movement. That idea of how 0:44:54.640 --> 0:44:58.640 Warson just was really taught to me from a very 0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:02.120 young age. I mean, my parents were you know, children 0:45:02.120 --> 0:45:06.279 of the sixties, and they had family members fighting in 0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:10.960 Vietnam and um, you know, friends dying in Vietnam and 0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:13.520 we're against the protests back then. So I grew up 0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:17.200 hearing these stories and of course stories from family members, 0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:19.480 particularly one of my grandfather's. Both of them, we were 0:45:19.560 --> 0:45:21.880 veterans in World War Two. One of them was a 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:25.439 marine and the you know, in the Pacific theater and 0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:29.640 still into his seventies, eighties and nineties until his final days, 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:33.280 was just dealing with horrific PTSD and had always taught 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:35.879 me from a young age never to get involved. So 0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:39.359 I you know, and I remember when when the very 0:45:39.400 --> 0:45:42.359 clearly um, you know, I'm sure it's on everyone's minds now, 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:46.000 and when the invasion of Afghanistan started, when the invasion 0:45:46.000 --> 0:45:49.080 of a Rock started, I was at that that massive 0:45:49.080 --> 0:45:54.600 demonstration in Washington, d C. That Juliana just mentioned, and 0:45:54.600 --> 0:45:57.480 you know I ended up. I'm from Utica, New York, 0:45:57.520 --> 0:46:01.480 and went to a rural high school wool uh just 0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:05.680 outside of of Utica, you know, russ Bell generally speaking, 0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:09.760 impoverished and also very conservative area of New York. And 0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:13.920 you know, I had the recruiters bothering me, military recruiters 0:46:14.239 --> 0:46:19.080 in high school, recruiting my friends, and they were just 0:46:19.160 --> 0:46:23.360 everywhere in the hallways. Uh So it was very present, 0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:26.879 um with me. When I was younger, I moved out 0:46:26.920 --> 0:46:32.040 to Olympia, Washington two thousand six, and that's one a 0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:36.040 new student activist group, Students for Democratic Society, was launched. 0:46:36.080 --> 0:46:38.800 That's how Juliana and I first met. We were both 0:46:38.840 --> 0:46:43.440 in separate chapters of that new organization in the Pacific Northwest, 0:46:44.040 --> 0:46:49.839 and the port protests started just just a few months 0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:52.400 after I moved out there in in Olympia in two 0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:55.600 thousand six. So wait, just declare for this for a second, 0:46:55.600 --> 0:46:59.360 because I've never quite been clear on this history. So 0:46:59.719 --> 0:47:02.320 there was a second SD, like Students for Democratic this 0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:05.480 idea that was like unrelated to the first one. Yeah, 0:47:05.719 --> 0:47:09.200 that they're born briefly um at the end of the 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:12.440 bushop manaster. That that explains a lot of things that 0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:17.080 it's very baffling. We're not that old. Yeah, we're definitely 0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:20.120 in the in the second uh, you know, the rebirth 0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:22.400 of it um. So you know, I think it it 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:25.960 took on some things in spirit um you know, but 0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:29.319 also was i'd say different in many ways, and it 0:47:29.440 --> 0:47:31.560 was very active to me at least, it was very 0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:35.320 exciting to be a member of the new STS because 0:47:35.360 --> 0:47:38.400 they're over a dozen chapters in the Pacific Northwest and 0:47:38.400 --> 0:47:41.320 it was a great way to connect with young activists 0:47:41.400 --> 0:47:45.080 all over the US. So STS is emerging in this 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:47.480 time period. One of the other things I was interested 0:47:47.520 --> 0:47:49.759 about is something something you were talking about in the 0:47:49.840 --> 0:47:51.400 in the in the early part of this, which has 0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:55.279 to do with the way that these giants, both the 0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:57.799 sort of Answer Coalition PSL Frank Group and I guess 0:47:57.840 --> 0:47:59.759 the I s O was still around back then co 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:05.399 Asians work versus how like anything else worked on. So 0:48:05.400 --> 0:48:08.000 so what was was s T sort of like consciously 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:10.920 set up and in opposition to those groups? I don't 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:13.239 think it was conscious, but there was just like I 0:48:13.239 --> 0:48:15.960 mean these days, I mean like there's a lot of 0:48:16.080 --> 0:48:21.120 controversy around PSL with like anarchist versus tanky politics, None 0:48:21.120 --> 0:48:23.280 of that mattered at that time, Like, none of that mattered. 0:48:23.400 --> 0:48:25.839 The only thing that mattered was the answer, which is 0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:30.759 the ps O Front group was completely fucking useless. Like 0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:37.799 they completely indistinguishable from any peace police um liberal Democratic 0:48:37.840 --> 0:48:41.239 Front group. There was literally no difference just in terms 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:44.640 of their aesthetics. Maybe like is there a donkey or 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:47.280 a hammer and sickle on something. That's the only difference 0:48:47.320 --> 0:48:49.279 we saw. So I don't I don't think there was. 0:48:49.640 --> 0:48:55.560 It wasn't There wasn't like a conscious like political opposite 0:48:56.160 --> 0:48:58.600 attention to it. It was just like they're not doing anything, 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:03.440 and and so we had to look in another direction. Actually, 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:05.840 you know, it's hard to keep track of the alphabet 0:49:05.960 --> 0:49:09.360 soup of athalitarian communist groups at times, but this was 0:49:09.400 --> 0:49:12.959 actually answer for those who don't recall, it was front 0:49:12.960 --> 0:49:16.479 group for the Workers World Party the W which yeah, 0:49:16.520 --> 0:49:19.800 I mean it's it's hard to keep track, right, Yeah, 0:49:20.080 --> 0:49:22.840 that's the same thing, like I think, so, so okay, 0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:24.440 So for people who are sort of unaware of this, 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:28.880 there's a network of connected but sometimes feuding like weird 0:49:28.920 --> 0:49:32.759 Stalinist cults that kind of kind of like they hold 0:49:32.800 --> 0:49:36.359 on through the eighties and nineties and they start sort 0:49:36.400 --> 0:49:38.960 of rebuilding again around the antiwar movements in that period. 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:41.440 That that's the PSLs of the up. That's answer like, 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:46.040 and I think that's like most like modern anti war 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:50.880 groups are also still these people, which is incredibly depressing 0:49:50.920 --> 0:49:52.680 something you want to talk a bit about it towards 0:49:52.680 --> 0:49:55.399 the end of this. But yeah, just for people who 0:49:55.400 --> 0:49:59.480 have not spent the last half decade in the in 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:05.640 the trench is of extremely weird anti war politics. So yeah, 0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:11.040 so I think we should get into how the the 0:50:11.160 --> 0:50:18.759 first action starts in Olympia. Yeah. So, and there were 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:22.080 actually a couple of actions that happened, um in the 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:24.600 year proceeding that, you know, before I moved out to 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:27.200 Olympia in two thousand and six, it was not yet 0:50:28.160 --> 0:50:32.880 under the banner of PMR Port Militarization Resistance. That was 0:50:32.960 --> 0:50:38.120 a name that was officially coined in uh, you know, 0:50:38.239 --> 0:50:42.479 in in May and June of two thousand six. And so, 0:50:42.760 --> 0:50:45.960 just to give you an idea Olympia, it's it's a 0:50:46.000 --> 0:50:48.239 college town or at the Evergreen State College is there. 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:51.160 It's also the capital Washington State, so you have that 0:50:51.239 --> 0:50:54.000 going on. It's also a military town. It's a little 0:50:54.000 --> 0:50:57.320 over twenty miles south of what we called Fort Lewis. 0:50:57.440 --> 0:51:00.319 It's now called j B l M j BLOM or 0:51:00.520 --> 0:51:03.279 Joint Base Lewis McCord. It's an Army and Air Force 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:06.480 base now it's one base. Um, so you had all 0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:10.120 these you know, different kind of elements, uh in you know, 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:14.640 in tandem in in that town and the public port. 0:51:15.160 --> 0:51:18.160 The port of Olympia is one of about seven years 0:51:18.200 --> 0:51:21.279 so public ports in the state of Washington, some of 0:51:21.320 --> 0:51:23.640 which are I mean, they're used for all kinds of 0:51:23.680 --> 0:51:28.480 things you know, for commercial, private industry, but also the 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:32.279 military and the U. S. Government. Uh so, uh, you know, 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:36.240 I heard from someone I don't even remember who that 0:51:36.520 --> 0:51:39.680 the military was sending a ship to the port of 0:51:39.680 --> 0:51:43.800 Olympia in late May of two thousand six. And this 0:51:43.960 --> 0:51:47.480 happened for ten or so days. And it was just 0:51:47.680 --> 0:51:52.239 kind of a natural instinct for a whole bunch of 0:51:52.280 --> 0:51:56.000 us to go down to the Port of Olympia. It 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:58.680 was it was the war machine in our backyard, and 0:51:58.719 --> 0:52:02.680 the idea was to just block the vehicles. It started 0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:06.479 out with just like less than ten people number folks 0:52:06.520 --> 0:52:11.560 getting arrested, and that very rapidly culminated into larger protests 0:52:11.920 --> 0:52:16.560 every single day um an active blockades people, uh, those 0:52:16.600 --> 0:52:19.160 of us like Juliana and myself and other folks using 0:52:19.640 --> 0:52:22.680 civil disobedience or what we prefer to call civil resistance 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:25.680 to try and stop or at the very least slow 0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:28.720 down these striker vehicles and to give folks an idea 0:52:29.200 --> 0:52:31.320 of what a striker vehicle is. You can look it 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:36.560 up online, but it's kind of halfway between. Um. You know, 0:52:36.800 --> 0:52:39.000 a tank and a hum vy doesn't have the slats, 0:52:39.200 --> 0:52:41.640 you know that a tank would have it's you know, 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:44.440 and they were being used in both Iraq and Afghanistan 0:52:44.640 --> 0:52:48.360 for for raids of residential areas. They were really on 0:52:48.360 --> 0:52:52.279 the front lines of of the war in in both 0:52:52.280 --> 0:52:54.960 those countries, and that's what we're trying to stop. I 0:52:55.000 --> 0:52:58.080 only got involved later, um, because I wasn't living in 0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:01.040 Olympia at the time. UM. I was another STS chapter. 0:53:01.440 --> 0:53:03.600 But my roommate was from Olympia and he had been 0:53:03.640 --> 0:53:09.760 involved in that first round of protests in Olympia before 0:53:10.440 --> 0:53:13.799 moving up to Bollingham. Yeah. So, like hearing his story 0:53:13.840 --> 0:53:19.520 has got me very excited because just like finally someone's 0:53:19.560 --> 0:53:24.600 someone's doing something like someone's they're not. Just like it's 0:53:24.600 --> 0:53:30.360 like everything else was just so liberal. Take whether it's 0:53:30.360 --> 0:53:32.960 marching from one place to another or writing to your 0:53:33.080 --> 0:53:35.880 congress people or occupying their office. It was like asking 0:53:35.920 --> 0:53:39.799 someone else to do something which you knew from the 0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:43.719 beginning they were never going to do. And finally this 0:53:43.800 --> 0:53:49.600 is finally someone was like actually getting into it. UM. 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:52.720 I think the first one of the things that happened 0:53:52.800 --> 0:54:01.200 here was that um they started to avoid UM. There's it. 0:54:01.200 --> 0:54:03.480 It was kind of a geographical thing, I think, UM, 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:09.120 for people who either don't know Washington, Washington, or because 0:54:09.120 --> 0:54:13.160 they're normal people don't know like the port areas of 0:54:13.239 --> 0:54:16.560 these cities very well, because it's like like unless you're 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:18.560 a long sherman, like why you would you go down 0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:26.879 to like the port of Tacoma. UM. But they kept 0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:31.000 moving it around because um Olympia is also not very 0:54:31.080 --> 0:54:36.720 big and UM, so it's there's really only two roads 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:40.000 into the port, which is very small, and so it 0:54:40.040 --> 0:54:46.160 was it's very easy to block it UM. And so 0:54:46.239 --> 0:54:48.400 then I think the first time that I got involved 0:54:48.760 --> 0:54:53.399 UM was in two thousands seven when they had moved 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:55.279 it because they kept moving it around to try and 0:54:55.640 --> 0:55:02.880 switch things up and wait before the seeing the ship around. No, 0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:05.839 it's like they had to make a military ship met 0:55:06.280 --> 0:55:10.560 they would UM. It's like like once the ship it 0:55:10.640 --> 0:55:12.839 wasn't the port, they would just have to go through 0:55:12.880 --> 0:55:16.160 with it. But then UM, you know, it's like everything 0:55:16.280 --> 0:55:18.399 every six months or so they had to make another 0:55:18.440 --> 0:55:22.120 military ship met and they would change the port usually 0:55:22.120 --> 0:55:26.560 each time, UM to try and let basically to avoid us. 0:55:26.640 --> 0:55:30.319 It doesn't seem like this is like normal crap. UM. 0:55:30.480 --> 0:55:33.239 The first time I had gone down was in UM Tacoma, 0:55:33.280 --> 0:55:37.000 which is a much much much more industrialized port than Olympia. 0:55:37.320 --> 0:55:40.560 It's you know, it's like a big port, a more 0:55:40.600 --> 0:55:47.080 normal port, I guess. And that one was honestly pretty crazy, um, 0:55:47.200 --> 0:55:52.280 because you're just trapped in this giant industrial maze basically 0:55:52.360 --> 0:55:55.480 at the mercy of the riot cops. The best success 0:55:55.520 --> 0:55:58.120 we had was definitely at the port of Olympia. UM. 0:55:58.360 --> 0:56:04.000 I think the in two thousand seven in Olympia was 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:11.760 definitely the glory moment, which was when people were able 0:56:11.840 --> 0:56:16.520 to on and off like actually hold the port and 0:56:16.719 --> 0:56:20.400 control it. The Yeah, and I wanna you know, just 0:56:20.920 --> 0:56:25.080 emphasize that, like the the one the military changing their 0:56:25.120 --> 0:56:28.080 approach right to avoid us so jumping from port to 0:56:28.120 --> 0:56:31.239 port with these different shipments. They actually went so far 0:56:31.520 --> 0:56:34.080 because we were so successful as a movement in the 0:56:34.080 --> 0:56:39.640 Pacific Northwest to ship striker vehicles by rail out of 0:56:39.680 --> 0:56:43.560 the Pacific Northwest and even going so far as to 0:56:44.160 --> 0:56:47.120 ports and Texas. I don't know, but you know, one 0:56:47.200 --> 0:56:49.840 one thing that we did is that we built up 0:56:50.120 --> 0:56:53.480 contacts with other activists with longshore workers all up and 0:56:53.520 --> 0:56:56.840 down the West coast in California. There are other activists 0:56:56.840 --> 0:57:00.760 were connected within Texas, Hawaii, New Jersey, in New York, 0:57:01.080 --> 0:57:04.280 there is a desire and the anti war movement. Uh 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:06.880 and and you know, in some extent maybe it's like 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:10.080 it was small. But some folks in the labor movement, 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:14.600 especially in Oakland where the I LW the you know, 0:57:14.680 --> 0:57:17.360 longshore workers Union, it's a lot more militant than say 0:57:17.360 --> 0:57:21.320 in a place like Olympia. UM. But yeah, I mean 0:57:21.360 --> 0:57:24.880 people wanted to replicate this model because, as Juliana said, 0:57:24.880 --> 0:57:27.320 we wore successful in two thousand seven, we shut down 0:57:27.360 --> 0:57:30.240 the port of Olympia for a total of it was 0:57:30.320 --> 0:57:34.360 essentially two days. They were not they're not shipping anything 0:57:34.400 --> 0:57:38.880 in or out. We set up blockades, were willing to 0:57:38.920 --> 0:57:41.600 throw down with the police in the street. And one 0:57:41.600 --> 0:57:43.760 of the things that was cool about that blockade is 0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:46.800 that one of the there's two entrances, like I said, 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:49.800 and one was completely blockaded and then the other one, UM, 0:57:49.840 --> 0:57:52.760 we had like a moving I don't really know what 0:57:52.840 --> 0:57:54.800 it was, but something with wheels that we can move 0:57:54.840 --> 0:57:57.160 in and out UM to open it up. And so 0:57:57.240 --> 0:58:00.439 then we could allow like civilian cargo to move then out, 0:58:00.920 --> 0:58:04.800 but then like we feel it back in place, UM 0:58:04.840 --> 0:58:09.160 to block military shipments. So we were able to actually 0:58:10.160 --> 0:58:12.600 like stopped them from like what while in in that 0:58:12.600 --> 0:58:14.400 oneted to come, were able to actually like stopped them 0:58:14.400 --> 0:58:16.760 from moving the self all together? Would you when sheally 0:58:16.800 --> 0:58:18.600 cleared up by the police and they moved it, we 0:58:18.600 --> 0:58:20.520 would eventually get cleared out by the police. It's like 0:58:20.520 --> 0:58:23.680 we were never able to It's like we're we we 0:58:23.800 --> 0:58:28.479 held it for two days. That those protests took place 0:58:28.480 --> 0:58:32.200 over a series of two weeks or more or less. Um, 0:58:32.240 --> 0:58:34.520 we were only able to fully hold it for two 0:58:34.600 --> 0:58:40.000 days before eventually they would clear us out. But one 0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:42.960 of the things is that this does it did create 0:58:43.200 --> 0:58:49.439 problems for the army because when you work with a port, 0:58:49.920 --> 0:58:52.520 you know, it's like you've got like a certain time 0:58:52.520 --> 0:58:55.880 frame that you've contracted with the port to do whatever 0:58:55.920 --> 0:58:59.880 it is because you're going to do and it's the 0:59:00.040 --> 0:59:04.040 not too happy if you take longer very than you 0:59:04.080 --> 0:59:07.400 said you would or yeah, yeah. And the other thing 0:59:07.440 --> 0:59:09.560 I want to add is, you know, I think the 0:59:09.640 --> 0:59:12.440 other really important element with this whole movement going on 0:59:13.280 --> 0:59:19.120 is the Pacific Northwest was um it is specifically western 0:59:19.160 --> 0:59:21.800 Washington where the two of us were living. It was 0:59:22.320 --> 0:59:26.800 it was you know, the center and in a sense 0:59:26.840 --> 0:59:28.720 it was the heart of the anti war movement in 0:59:28.760 --> 0:59:31.760 the country at that time. One because of this militant 0:59:31.840 --> 0:59:36.760 direct action that we were, you know, we were building 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:38.880 up in the streets and trying to throw a wrench 0:59:39.640 --> 0:59:43.280 in the gears of the war machine to to at 0:59:43.280 --> 0:59:46.200 the veryly slowed down, which in some ways we did. 0:59:46.240 --> 0:59:49.560 But we're up against so much. But the other added element, 0:59:49.600 --> 0:59:53.080 of course is the g I resistance and the soldiers 0:59:53.080 --> 0:59:56.120 who are resisting. I've all also known as the Rock 0:59:56.240 --> 0:59:59.560 Veterans against the War was very active there. They set 0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:04.440 up a g coffeehouse across you know, literally across the street, uh, 1:00:04.840 --> 1:00:08.320 you know, the gates for one of the entrances for 1:00:08.320 --> 1:00:12.280 Fort Louis. Um. There are a whole bunch of soldiers 1:00:12.320 --> 1:00:15.120 that were going a wall. We had friends who were 1:00:15.200 --> 1:00:18.720 active duty soldiers who had fought in you know, Iraq 1:00:18.800 --> 1:00:21.960 and Afghanistan that were a wall and they were hiding, 1:00:22.360 --> 1:00:25.120 you know, refusing to go back into the striker brigades 1:00:25.160 --> 1:00:29.400 that joined us in port militarization resistance. Uh. There are 1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:32.200 a whole you know, long list of soldiers that were 1:00:33.040 --> 1:00:37.840 very publicly saying, you know, I'm refusing to fight in 1:00:37.960 --> 1:00:42.160 Iraq or Afghanistan for you know, various reasons, and so 1:00:42.240 --> 1:00:45.800 we are very much connected with this movement too, and 1:00:45.960 --> 1:00:48.560 I think the higher ups in the military they're they're 1:00:48.640 --> 1:00:52.240 hyper aware of that. They studied us very well, um, 1:00:52.280 --> 1:00:54.960 you know, to the point of actually spying on us. 1:00:54.960 --> 1:00:57.720 So that's like a whole other element of the story too. 1:00:59.240 --> 1:01:00.880 One of the things that I've heard from talking to 1:01:00.920 --> 1:01:05.520 other people who were involved in this was that like, wow, 1:01:05.600 --> 1:01:09.080 like during these protests, like the level of police militarization 1:01:09.200 --> 1:01:12.760 just like skyrocketed, and like I remember I was talking 1:01:12.760 --> 1:01:14.160 trend about this. It was like, you know, if if 1:01:14.200 --> 1:01:16.360 you go back and look at like old system of 1:01:16.400 --> 1:01:18.880 a down videos, you know, they'll they'lly'll have these things. Yeah, 1:01:18.880 --> 1:01:20.520 and you'll see these you see these riot police and 1:01:20.520 --> 1:01:23.280 like you look at them and it's like these people 1:01:23.880 --> 1:01:26.800 they look so much less armored than like the people 1:01:26.840 --> 1:01:29.640 that we have now. And one of the things that 1:01:29.800 --> 1:01:32.120 I thought was interesting about this was that like this 1:01:32.200 --> 1:01:34.640 is I think one of the points where you start 1:01:34.720 --> 1:01:38.120 getting the modern riot police showing up that are just like, 1:01:38.160 --> 1:01:41.680 you know, completely encased in like armor. And yeah, I 1:01:41.680 --> 1:01:44.160 want to talk about just like the police response to this, 1:01:44.280 --> 1:01:47.200 because I think that's that's another thing I think. I 1:01:47.240 --> 1:01:49.200 think there's never there's a kind of a tendency to 1:01:49.240 --> 1:01:53.200 sort of project back what the police look like one 1:01:53.560 --> 1:01:55.720 just onto the whole history of police and I think 1:01:55.760 --> 1:01:58.680 it's like it's it's it's gotten worse even in the 1:01:58.760 --> 1:02:04.480 last twenty years. Yeah, I mean, so I lived downtown 1:02:04.800 --> 1:02:07.360 in Olympia and probably just like a six minute walk 1:02:07.400 --> 1:02:11.560 away from the Port of Olympia and and also very 1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:15.120 conveniently just a few blocks away from the police station. 1:02:15.240 --> 1:02:17.880 So so lucky us. So we actually saw you know, 1:02:17.920 --> 1:02:20.800 we could see from the front of down on the road, 1:02:20.800 --> 1:02:23.520 down the sidewalk from the front of our house, Uh, 1:02:23.640 --> 1:02:27.080 some of the military shipments going by. And we we 1:02:27.080 --> 1:02:30.040 we did see that absolutely, and at at times it 1:02:30.200 --> 1:02:32.520 was it was terrifying. I mean I lived in an 1:02:32.520 --> 1:02:38.120 Activis house we jokingly called HQ because that's just you 1:02:38.120 --> 1:02:40.880 know where because of its proximity to the port, that's 1:02:40.880 --> 1:02:44.040 where a number of us were having meetings, uh, you know, 1:02:44.640 --> 1:02:49.720 around these protests early on in two thousand six, and um, yeah, 1:02:49.760 --> 1:02:53.160 I mean we like they look like RoboCop and it's 1:02:53.200 --> 1:02:56.480 something I had I you know, I hadn't like I 1:02:56.480 --> 1:03:00.400 had been to like mass marches and demonstrations like the 1:03:00.520 --> 1:03:03.440 r n C protests and d NC protests in Boston, 1:03:03.440 --> 1:03:07.240 New York, and like in Washington, d C. Uh and 1:03:07.320 --> 1:03:11.800 so I would see these like riot cops, but they 1:03:11.840 --> 1:03:15.040 were I mean ubiquitous in the support protests. It was 1:03:15.080 --> 1:03:17.200 like a whole army of them that was sent out. 1:03:17.240 --> 1:03:20.160 I mean when Juliana said that things got kind of 1:03:20.160 --> 1:03:22.840 crazy at the Port of Tacoma protests, I mean there 1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:25.720 was like a police riot, you know, like the cops 1:03:25.960 --> 1:03:29.760 went absolutely nuts, are shooting people with tear gas and 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:34.040 pepper balls and and brutalizing people. I had never before 1:03:34.040 --> 1:03:36.400 witnessed anything like that. And it got to the point 1:03:36.480 --> 1:03:39.320 in you know, in Olympia where we we kind of 1:03:39.360 --> 1:03:41.680 knew early on that we were being traced by the 1:03:41.720 --> 1:03:45.480 police to the extent where, you know, one friend of 1:03:45.480 --> 1:03:49.240 ours was followed from our house to the bus station 1:03:49.400 --> 1:03:52.200 to take a bus to school by the police and 1:03:52.240 --> 1:03:56.280 then was stopped and essentially assaulted by them on the street. 1:03:56.440 --> 1:04:00.720 And we had another fellow activists and uh, you know, 1:04:00.720 --> 1:04:04.080 a roommate of mine who is going out to driving 1:04:04.080 --> 1:04:07.600 out with a few friends, uh, few fellow activists from 1:04:07.600 --> 1:04:10.760 Olympia to Aberdeen, about an hour's drive. So Aberdeen, there's 1:04:10.760 --> 1:04:14.120 a port of Gray's Harbor there, pretty conservative small town. 1:04:14.200 --> 1:04:17.920 It's where Kurt Cobain is from, home of the famous 1:04:18.520 --> 1:04:26.760 Kurt Cobain teams. McDonald's they served billions and and billions 1:04:26.760 --> 1:04:30.840 served and that one McDonald's and Kurt Cobain's McDonald's. But yeah, 1:04:30.880 --> 1:04:34.000 I mean the you know, they they were they were following. 1:04:34.080 --> 1:04:39.080 They had orders the Washington State Patrol two, um, you know, 1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:43.440 pull over a car full full of known anarchists. There 1:04:43.480 --> 1:04:45.840 was alert gone out to all the police departments. They 1:04:45.840 --> 1:04:48.560 pulled them. They pulled him over, they made him walk 1:04:48.600 --> 1:04:51.200 the line. He was had you know, wasn't drinking and 1:04:51.320 --> 1:04:54.440 no drugs like nothing in his system. But they he 1:04:54.480 --> 1:04:57.000 was driving under like one mile per hour under the 1:04:57.120 --> 1:05:01.480 speed limit. They arrested him for or d d W 1:05:01.720 --> 1:05:05.320 I you know, eventually fought the chargers sued um uh 1:05:05.360 --> 1:05:08.080 and you know when a big settlement out of all that. 1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:11.640 But that's just one example of many of the lengths 1:05:11.640 --> 1:05:14.360 that the police would go to. It was pretty severe. 1:05:14.440 --> 1:05:18.680 Even there's a house of a bunch of anarchists, younger 1:05:18.720 --> 1:05:22.320 anarchists called a pitch Pipe Info Shop in Tacoma, and 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:24.920 that was also a big target. The police were swarming 1:05:24.920 --> 1:05:28.040 around them all the time. They had like cameras set 1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:30.880 up like specifically just outside the Infra shop, like there 1:05:30.960 --> 1:05:33.280 weren't surrounds cameras there before, but then it was like, oh, well, 1:05:33.280 --> 1:05:37.600 just conveniently put them on this one specific street corner. Yeah, 1:05:37.640 --> 1:05:39.920 I think like that was one of the things I 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:41.480 was reading about this is you have that stuff. And 1:05:41.520 --> 1:05:44.120 then also I think one of the steerest parts of 1:05:44.160 --> 1:05:47.520 this is that like army intelligence gets involved and yeah, 1:05:47.560 --> 1:05:50.320 do you want to talk about the man named quote 1:05:50.360 --> 1:05:55.720 unquote John Jacob, who was in fact not that Yeah, so, uh, 1:05:55.800 --> 1:05:58.120 you know, I'm curious what what memories you have of 1:05:58.160 --> 1:06:02.040 our our good dear friend John Jacob Juliana. I don't 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:05.120 think I ever actually knew him in person, but he 1:06:05.320 --> 1:06:09.240 was the moderator of the List Serve, wasn't he. Yes, 1:06:09.400 --> 1:06:11.760 she's one of the moderators of our list Serves now 1:06:11.800 --> 1:06:15.440 that I look back on him, Like the Port Militarization Resistance, 1:06:15.720 --> 1:06:19.000 the sirup was always just like this dramatic ship show, 1:06:19.560 --> 1:06:26.680 and it's like, looking back on it, I was like, oh, 1:06:26.840 --> 1:06:32.880 a cop that did nothing, absolutely nothing to like established 1:06:32.960 --> 1:06:38.520 order or uh I if it was on purpose. Yeah, 1:06:38.640 --> 1:06:41.280 so I think there's definitely something that happened, Like you know, 1:06:41.360 --> 1:06:44.600 looking back from our vantage point today, it's like, Okay, 1:06:44.680 --> 1:06:46.680 things make a little more sense at the time though, 1:06:47.080 --> 1:06:50.880 And we're in this movement, right and so that means 1:06:50.920 --> 1:06:53.360 like meeting people where they're at, we find all kinds 1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:55.480 of people that would like want to join the movement 1:06:55.560 --> 1:06:58.200 like I, like I said earlier, like active duty soldiers 1:06:58.240 --> 1:07:00.480 that were joining. So I meant to a guy named 1:07:00.560 --> 1:07:04.040 John Jacob and he sent an email out to me. 1:07:04.120 --> 1:07:06.640 I was one of the contacts for the Olympia STS group, 1:07:07.120 --> 1:07:09.240 and it's like, hey, you know, there's kind of like 1:07:09.240 --> 1:07:12.920 a parent organization that's some old like elder activists or 1:07:13.000 --> 1:07:15.840 in uh TO kind of mentor US called Movement for 1:07:15.840 --> 1:07:19.400 a Democratic Society, very small, never really took off, but like, 1:07:19.440 --> 1:07:23.120 I'm interested in getting involved. We met up in public 1:07:23.200 --> 1:07:26.840 and he seemed like an alright guy. I mean he was, um, 1:07:26.880 --> 1:07:30.360 you know, forty ish early forties. He had told me, 1:07:30.760 --> 1:07:33.160 like you know, been in the military for years and 1:07:33.160 --> 1:07:35.480 he actually still worked at Fort Lewis. So he was 1:07:36.000 --> 1:07:40.320 always open about that but it only went that far. 1:07:40.440 --> 1:07:43.560 He didn't ever tell us what he actually did there, 1:07:43.560 --> 1:07:46.200 and it wasn't abnormal for you know, we have many 1:07:46.240 --> 1:07:50.120 folks that worked active duty, you know, on base and 1:07:50.200 --> 1:07:53.800 civilian civilian roles or soldiers. As I mentioned that we're 1:07:53.840 --> 1:07:57.960 in port militarization resistance. So he gets involved, and he 1:07:58.000 --> 1:08:01.080 gets really involved with port militarisation and resistance. He goes 1:08:01.120 --> 1:08:03.280 to protests, He gets pretty close with this group of 1:08:03.360 --> 1:08:07.360 anarchists I mentioned who lived in Tacoma, UM, and he 1:08:07.400 --> 1:08:12.200 seemed like a really solid guy to to most of us. UM. 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:15.840 And you know, things happen as as we progress and 1:08:16.080 --> 1:08:20.360 you know, as a military responded to our uh you 1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:22.920 know how effective we wore in the anti war movement 1:08:23.120 --> 1:08:27.120 and the g I resistance movement by changing their tactics. 1:08:27.800 --> 1:08:32.960 We noticed that Okay, when we first started the protests, UM, 1:08:33.040 --> 1:08:36.439 we we had the ability to catch the police by 1:08:36.479 --> 1:08:39.920 surprise by setting up you know, a blockade here, we're 1:08:39.960 --> 1:08:42.439 having a surprise action there at this time, or this 1:08:42.479 --> 1:08:46.400 support etcetera, etcetera. And as time progressed, we found out 1:08:46.439 --> 1:08:49.880 that you know, we were having these making these decisions 1:08:49.880 --> 1:08:53.040 for tactics in our strategy we thought that we're in 1:08:53.120 --> 1:08:56.479 private and then for whatever reason, the police kind of 1:08:56.760 --> 1:08:59.320 knew about where we were going to be before we 1:08:59.360 --> 1:09:02.720 even showed. And that I remember that happening in two 1:09:02.800 --> 1:09:06.600 thousand seven the Port of Olympia. Yeah, in Tacoma. There 1:09:06.640 --> 1:09:09.080 are there was a lot of things like that. Like 1:09:09.640 --> 1:09:12.040 there was one time when they're like some people who 1:09:12.720 --> 1:09:16.559 had a meeting in a closed room, like all there, 1:09:16.960 --> 1:09:18.960 they had taken the batteries out of their cell phones. 1:09:19.520 --> 1:09:23.000 They had simply written on the whiteboard the time and 1:09:23.000 --> 1:09:24.880 place they were going to have their next meeting, which 1:09:24.880 --> 1:09:26.360 is going to be in a diner near the port. 1:09:27.160 --> 1:09:29.000 And so that way if like if for any reason 1:09:29.040 --> 1:09:33.639 the room was bugged, it wouldn't be caught up because 1:09:33.880 --> 1:09:36.680 it was just written on a board. And then it 1:09:36.760 --> 1:09:38.400 was like a small meeting too, so it's like there 1:09:38.400 --> 1:09:42.439 weren't and then when they got to that diner, there's 1:09:42.520 --> 1:09:47.599 like full of cops like clearly waiting for them. Like 1:09:48.200 --> 1:09:50.240 at that point, it's like it was very clear there 1:09:50.320 --> 1:09:55.519 was some some level of infiltration involved. Yeah, and I 1:09:55.560 --> 1:09:58.280 think we from early on, like you know, we we 1:09:58.360 --> 1:10:00.559 knew our history. I mean, you know, one of our 1:10:00.560 --> 1:10:03.479 our fellow activists and pmrs and a friend of ours, 1:10:03.520 --> 1:10:06.880 Peter Boehmer's professor at the Evergreen State College. He was 1:10:06.920 --> 1:10:10.800 in the original sts back in the sixties, and you know, 1:10:10.960 --> 1:10:14.240 he was essentially a political prisoner for a couple of 1:10:14.320 --> 1:10:17.559 years in both Massachusetts and California. UM. I mean the 1:10:17.600 --> 1:10:22.160 FEDS essentially tried to assassinate him. Um back in in 1:10:22.240 --> 1:10:24.280 the seventies when he was active in the anti war 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:27.759 movement in San Diego. Like we knew, you know, former 1:10:27.800 --> 1:10:30.360 Black Panthers, and we read our history, so we knew 1:10:30.400 --> 1:10:33.680 about the history of cointelpro the counterintelligence program of the 1:10:33.720 --> 1:10:36.439 six season and seventies and the war on the anti 1:10:36.479 --> 1:10:42.040 war and civil rights and black power, American Indian movements, etcetera. UM, 1:10:42.080 --> 1:10:45.960 so we knew, you know, just intuitively early on. Uh. 1:10:46.000 --> 1:10:49.200 But there's one thing that happened in particular which prompted 1:10:49.240 --> 1:10:51.519 some of us to file for a public records request 1:10:51.560 --> 1:10:55.639 with the City of Olympia and another activists walking down 1:10:55.680 --> 1:10:58.760 the street in Olympia. I'm a member of the Wobby's 1:10:58.800 --> 1:11:01.120 Industrial Workers of the World Union, and we had like 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:04.439 a one of those metal newspaper boxes downtown and it 1:11:04.560 --> 1:11:07.559 was locked to a poll um, you know, with a 1:11:07.600 --> 1:11:09.920 bike lock and there are some city workers there with 1:11:10.000 --> 1:11:13.320 a pickup truck and they're cutting the lock to this 1:11:13.680 --> 1:11:16.160 newspaper box and they threw it in their pickup truck 1:11:16.720 --> 1:11:18.639 and so are you know this friend of ours was there. 1:11:18.640 --> 1:11:20.400 It was like, what the hell, what are you doing? 1:11:20.479 --> 1:11:22.439 What's going on? And one of the workers just kind 1:11:22.439 --> 1:11:24.639 of strugged and was like, I don't know, the police 1:11:24.680 --> 1:11:26.640 told us to do this, and they drove off like 1:11:26.720 --> 1:11:30.240 they stole you know, are essentially like our union property 1:11:30.320 --> 1:11:33.680 or whatever. UM. So we had you know, our our 1:11:33.760 --> 1:11:37.080 lawyer friend Larry Hilda's and the National Lawyer's Guild you know, 1:11:37.200 --> 1:11:39.679 call and kind of threatened the city and and then 1:11:40.120 --> 1:11:42.080 a number of us got together like, hey, you know, 1:11:42.160 --> 1:11:45.680 let's do like a public records requests UM with the 1:11:45.680 --> 1:11:50.240 City of of Olympia freedom of information law right and 1:11:50.360 --> 1:11:54.400 so we did. And the request was, you know, just 1:11:54.439 --> 1:11:59.120 requesting any all information the city had, UM, any exchanges 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:03.599 communications by email, etcetera between the police and like other 1:12:03.680 --> 1:12:10.960 agencies about anarchists i WW Students for a Democratic Society UM. 1:12:11.000 --> 1:12:13.799 And their initial search that the city clerk did yielded 1:12:13.880 --> 1:12:17.519 something like thirty thousand responses. So she's like, Okay, I 1:12:17.560 --> 1:12:21.040 gotta narrow this down. And I don't know, I was 1:12:21.080 --> 1:12:24.240 working on the request at the time, and for some reason, 1:12:24.280 --> 1:12:26.560 like I don't know where support protests are near a 1:12:26.600 --> 1:12:31.599 military based communications between the army not thinking anything, and 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:35.680 so the initial responses who actually got um, you know, 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:40.160 maybe a hundred hundred thirty or so different documents, just 1:12:40.240 --> 1:12:45.320 copies of emails, etcetera. That, Um, we're little puzzle pieces 1:12:45.360 --> 1:12:48.040 for this massive puzzle. And it was just a few 1:12:48.080 --> 1:12:50.880 of them. Uh. And it was you know, there was 1:12:50.920 --> 1:12:54.800 an email talking about our guy in the Navy going 1:12:54.880 --> 1:12:58.599 to a p MR meeting to get some intel. Uh. 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:01.240 There's you know, kinds of things like that. There are 1:13:01.280 --> 1:13:04.719 a few emails in particular. Um, and the email address 1:13:04.800 --> 1:13:08.559 was something like John John J Towery UT you know, 1:13:09.240 --> 1:13:12.639 Army dot us whatever the email address was. So there's 1:13:12.640 --> 1:13:16.080 a crew of activists that got together, put their heads together, 1:13:16.160 --> 1:13:18.919 did some research quietly for a few months, and eventually 1:13:18.960 --> 1:13:25.240 found out by publicly accessible information like voter registration records 1:13:25.360 --> 1:13:28.400 and also finding out something about like a motorcycle club 1:13:28.960 --> 1:13:31.719 called like the I don't know, like the Brown Beauque 1:13:31.760 --> 1:13:35.000 Club or the Brown butt club or something, and and 1:13:35.040 --> 1:13:37.559 the like found out that this John Towery guy that 1:13:37.600 --> 1:13:40.640 was in this motorcycle club and had his you know, 1:13:41.320 --> 1:13:44.320 was registered to vote outside of Tacoma in this town there. 1:13:44.960 --> 1:13:47.960 It was actually John Jacob. It was this guy that 1:13:48.040 --> 1:13:52.759 we thought was a fellow activist, an anarchist um and 1:13:52.760 --> 1:13:54.400 and a friend, you know, I thought he was a 1:13:54.400 --> 1:13:57.960 personal friend of mine. Turns out he was actually essentially 1:13:58.000 --> 1:14:01.439 an Army intelligence officer working for something called the Force 1:14:01.520 --> 1:14:06.320 Protection Unit at uh AT Joint Phase Joint based Lewis 1:14:06.400 --> 1:14:11.120 McCord and also working with a whole list of different 1:14:11.160 --> 1:14:14.200 agencies and what turned out to be like a massive 1:14:14.600 --> 1:14:17.880 surveillance network that was national in scope. This guy was 1:14:17.960 --> 1:14:22.040 sent by the Army along with many others to infiltrate us, 1:14:22.439 --> 1:14:26.720 to aspire on us, and to disrupt us. It was huge, Yeah, 1:14:26.720 --> 1:14:28.160 And that That's one of the things that I've always 1:14:28.160 --> 1:14:30.120 always really interesting about this is like, so like I 1:14:30.320 --> 1:14:33.160 learned about poor militarization resistance basically because I was like 1:14:33.840 --> 1:14:36.519 poking around the history of like informists and I ran 1:14:36.520 --> 1:14:38.760 into this and I was like what because and then 1:14:38.800 --> 1:14:40.000 that was what what I thought. One of the things 1:14:40.040 --> 1:14:42.520 I thought was really interesting about this is that, like, 1:14:42.520 --> 1:14:44.200 like I think that this chapter of the anti war 1:14:44.280 --> 1:14:47.280 movement is even on the left, is like not very 1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:50.360 well known, but like the seriousness is which the army 1:14:50.400 --> 1:14:54.080 seems to have taken it easily is really remarkable. Yeah, 1:14:54.120 --> 1:14:56.760 I'm wondering what you do think about that. One thing 1:14:56.760 --> 1:14:59.559 we have to emphasize is is that we were not 1:14:59.640 --> 1:15:04.040 a large group of people. Like, um, the number of 1:15:04.040 --> 1:15:08.840 people who are actively involved in port militaristication assistance at 1:15:08.880 --> 1:15:12.200 its peak was how many people do you think it was, Brandon, Well, 1:15:12.240 --> 1:15:14.479 it depends. I mean I'd say they're probably like at 1:15:14.520 --> 1:15:18.479 its peak maybe probably four ye to fifty people that 1:15:18.520 --> 1:15:21.200 would like consistently show up to things. You know, maybe 1:15:21.200 --> 1:15:24.640 a slightly smaller, very core group, but we would have 1:15:24.680 --> 1:15:29.040 demonstrations with like and then like four people, you know, yeah, 1:15:29.080 --> 1:15:32.920 and like that would be like the max like there 1:15:33.040 --> 1:15:39.120 is it's like there are like the peaceful like kind 1:15:39.160 --> 1:15:41.439 of like support actions. You know, you would get like 1:15:41.479 --> 1:15:43.639 a couple hundred people and then like for the stuff 1:15:44.880 --> 1:15:50.120 like where it's like the first night that that the 1:15:50.160 --> 1:15:52.920 part of the entrance to the part of Olympia was occupied, 1:15:53.160 --> 1:15:58.120 it would be like Um, these were not These were 1:15:58.160 --> 1:16:01.760 not very large groups of people. UM. I feel like 1:16:02.000 --> 1:16:03.680 and like I said, it's like one thing that we 1:16:03.760 --> 1:16:06.200 need to keep in mind was that, um, the peace 1:16:06.200 --> 1:16:10.920 police were much stronger back then than they are now nowadays. 1:16:11.160 --> 1:16:13.760 Laton like as we saw last year, it's like people 1:16:13.800 --> 1:16:17.800 in the US of learn to throw down, but that 1:16:17.880 --> 1:16:21.479 was not the case at the time. And so this 1:16:21.600 --> 1:16:24.600 is a very very small group of people. UM. I 1:16:24.640 --> 1:16:29.519 think we accomplished a lot from with how small it was. UM. 1:16:29.600 --> 1:16:33.480 If it had been larger, it would have accomplished way more. UM. 1:16:33.560 --> 1:16:44.799 But even that small core of like people with maybe 1:16:45.479 --> 1:16:48.960 expanding out to like a larger group of a couple 1:16:48.960 --> 1:16:54.439 of hundred, had them that scared that they went that 1:16:54.560 --> 1:16:57.160 far they're trying to disrupt it. Yeah. And and this 1:16:57.280 --> 1:16:59.160 is one of the things I've been thinking about a 1:16:59.240 --> 1:17:02.200 lot of recent lee of this seems to be a 1:17:02.280 --> 1:17:05.960 very consistent thing, which is that like the two things 1:17:06.000 --> 1:17:10.080 that are guaranteed to like just have a hammer drop 1:17:10.080 --> 1:17:12.879 on you if you touch them is pipelines and ports, 1:17:14.320 --> 1:17:17.280 And that that was that was something you know, we've 1:17:17.280 --> 1:17:21.439 we've talked a lot on here about pipeline protests. UM. 1:17:21.600 --> 1:17:26.240 But I was interested in what you too think about 1:17:26.640 --> 1:17:31.120 because you know, this this is like of very particular 1:17:31.200 --> 1:17:33.439 moment right now in which you're dealing with all these 1:17:33.479 --> 1:17:36.680 logistics chain failures. And I was wondering if if you 1:17:36.720 --> 1:17:39.840 do think there's anything that we can learn from how 1:17:40.920 --> 1:17:45.599 your versions of the sort of of port demonstrations worked 1:17:45.600 --> 1:17:48.799 for potentially trying to leverage that in the future, especially 1:17:48.840 --> 1:17:53.439 with like contract negotiations for port workers in Oakland coming 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:56.840 up next year. Yeah, that's a great question. You know, 1:17:57.360 --> 1:17:59.840 it's this old saying in the I w w D 1:18:00.200 --> 1:18:02.479 action gets goods, right, And I think it really boils 1:18:02.520 --> 1:18:06.719 down to that it's building up uh, you know, mass 1:18:06.800 --> 1:18:11.719 movements and in social movements from below h that rely 1:18:11.840 --> 1:18:16.800 on direct action, that rely on civil resistance, civil disobedience. Um. Yeah, 1:18:16.840 --> 1:18:20.760 and and the pipeline protests that have been ongoing where 1:18:20.840 --> 1:18:23.320 Indigenous people have been on the front lines of that 1:18:23.960 --> 1:18:26.439 for many many years now. I mean, the kind of 1:18:26.479 --> 1:18:31.760 repression and surveillance that we face really pales in comparison 1:18:32.120 --> 1:18:35.280 to the kinds of you know, surveillance of repression net 1:18:35.280 --> 1:18:40.040 folks were facing at Standing Rock, for example. Um. You know, 1:18:40.200 --> 1:18:44.519 I think, of course one of the well one of 1:18:44.560 --> 1:18:48.440 the main differences is that it was primarily the military, 1:18:48.560 --> 1:18:52.320 you know, with us, right that was uh, surveilling us 1:18:52.360 --> 1:18:56.880 because this is very specifically, you know, a war issue 1:18:56.920 --> 1:19:02.719 and a military issue. Um. But yeah, I mean I think, um, 1:19:02.760 --> 1:19:05.439 you know, like I think there's a big questions like 1:19:05.520 --> 1:19:07.559 what what do we have to do that's that's new? 1:19:08.160 --> 1:19:10.200 And to me, I say, you know, for both that 1:19:10.320 --> 1:19:12.840 kind of militant action, but also for the labor movements, like, 1:19:13.520 --> 1:19:16.559 it's not you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. 1:19:16.720 --> 1:19:21.080 There are things that have a tried and true track 1:19:21.160 --> 1:19:23.920 record of getting the goods, and that is you know, 1:19:24.160 --> 1:19:30.040 these more disruptive kind of actions and movements. Um. And 1:19:30.080 --> 1:19:32.400 so one of them would be you know, I guess 1:19:32.400 --> 1:19:35.440 my suggestion would be to like go back to the basics. 1:19:35.640 --> 1:19:38.080 And even like I would say, now, you know this, 1:19:38.640 --> 1:19:42.840 remember this at a time when like Facebook was around, right, Like, 1:19:42.960 --> 1:19:45.559 but we weren't really using that for our organizing. We 1:19:45.640 --> 1:19:49.040 really relied on like face to face meetings, you know, 1:19:49.120 --> 1:19:53.360 phone calls and building up trust with people and building 1:19:53.439 --> 1:19:56.360 up our capacity to like take actions and make change. 1:19:56.400 --> 1:19:59.000 You know, I think I'm not saying throw out everything 1:19:59.040 --> 1:20:01.200 that you know, that at least some of the good 1:20:01.200 --> 1:20:03.760 that social media has to offer. But like I think 1:20:03.760 --> 1:20:07.040 going beyond that and going back to these older tactics 1:20:07.040 --> 1:20:09.479 and then for the labor movement, like the big thing 1:20:09.640 --> 1:20:11.879 is you know, and it's just like a bigger question 1:20:12.000 --> 1:20:17.240 for for mainstream unions in particular, I mean, they're that 1:20:17.400 --> 1:20:21.240 the whole idea of like union contracts is that workers 1:20:21.360 --> 1:20:24.759 also lose a lot. Yeah, they get some things, but uh, 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:28.960 business owners and bosses have rights carved out in in 1:20:29.000 --> 1:20:32.160 those contracts. And with the longshore workers, I mean the 1:20:32.240 --> 1:20:34.360 difficult thing with that, of course, is like there would 1:20:34.360 --> 1:20:38.040 be some symbolic strikes that of course, like longshore workers 1:20:38.360 --> 1:20:41.320 have done and continue to do, you know, around like 1:20:41.720 --> 1:20:47.080 the war Iraq historically supporting movie a bou Jamal maydea, etcetera, 1:20:47.760 --> 1:20:50.439 like in Oakland, Um, but they have some things for 1:20:50.479 --> 1:20:53.360 that written into their contracts, and you know, for all 1:20:53.439 --> 1:20:56.720 these other like unions it's like, well, you know, we 1:20:56.800 --> 1:21:01.120 can't strike at all for uh, for the next two years, 1:21:01.120 --> 1:21:03.760 the next three years, whatever the life of the contract is. Like, 1:21:03.960 --> 1:21:06.080 I think it's a bigger question and challenge for the 1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:10.240 labor movement to move beyond that and not be putting 1:21:10.240 --> 1:21:14.760 this strait jacket of contracts like that. Yeah, I think 1:21:14.800 --> 1:21:18.479 that that, particularly, like the the no strike clause part 1:21:18.560 --> 1:21:20.400 of contracts, I think is an interesting thing because it 1:21:21.640 --> 1:21:24.720 I don't know, there's not I mean, there are some 1:21:24.840 --> 1:21:29.840 unions that will actually do stuff around fighting it, but 1:21:29.920 --> 1:21:32.360 mostly people just sort of don't care. And I think 1:21:32.920 --> 1:21:36.200 you wind up in a situation where it seems like 1:21:36.240 --> 1:21:39.080 you kind of have to plan your tactics around when 1:21:39.120 --> 1:21:42.479 contract negotiations are happening, because otherwise you can't actually get 1:21:42.520 --> 1:21:44.280 people to do anything more in like a one day 1:21:44.280 --> 1:21:47.760 symbolic strike. Yeah, and or you know the challenges, Like, 1:21:47.840 --> 1:21:50.840 you know, we have this great American tradition that's not 1:21:50.960 --> 1:21:54.120 unique to the US. It's universal really, and it's one 1:21:54.160 --> 1:21:58.240 that resonates with me breaking the law right and like 1:21:58.280 --> 1:22:01.400 we're you know, we're like civil obedience. That is that 1:22:01.600 --> 1:22:03.719 what we were doing in the streets and blocking the ports. 1:22:03.840 --> 1:22:05.519 We were breaking the law and we knew it. And 1:22:05.560 --> 1:22:08.519 that's what the civil rights movement, the Black freedom movement 1:22:08.560 --> 1:22:12.640 did in in the nineteen sixties. But like we have 1:22:13.280 --> 1:22:18.080 recent examples of workers breaking the law and mass like 1:22:18.120 --> 1:22:21.840 the West Virginia teacher strikes that happened a few years ago, 1:22:22.439 --> 1:22:25.679 Like teachers in every single county in that state went 1:22:25.760 --> 1:22:29.280 on strike. They broke the law and and they want 1:22:29.400 --> 1:22:31.599 something out of that. And I think that's what we 1:22:31.640 --> 1:22:35.720 really need to encourage people, is this idea of breaking 1:22:35.800 --> 1:22:38.519 out of like the norm and and breaking the laws 1:22:38.560 --> 1:22:41.320 which you know, the laws that are in place, which 1:22:41.360 --> 1:22:44.880 are not there to you know, expand our freedom there 1:22:45.000 --> 1:22:48.719 there too contracted. Yeah, one of one of my friends 1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:52.040 kind a joke about what was the exact line. It was, 1:22:52.560 --> 1:22:54.519 it's it's only illegal if you get caught and it 1:22:54.560 --> 1:22:56.760 only matters if you lose, which I think is a 1:22:56.800 --> 1:23:04.000 good way of thinking about. But King and you know, yeah, 1:23:04.680 --> 1:23:06.880 I think it's also like it's worth mentioning that like 1:23:07.439 --> 1:23:11.120 the other sides, the law doesn't matter to them at all, 1:23:11.240 --> 1:23:13.240 Like they just tear it up and like light it 1:23:13.240 --> 1:23:16.960 on fire constantly. So don't don't bind yourself if if 1:23:17.000 --> 1:23:19.400 you can, if you can, not get caught and not 1:23:19.720 --> 1:23:21.840 like go to prison for the rest of your life. 1:23:21.880 --> 1:23:25.120 Don't bind yourself by a bunch of like paper that 1:23:25.200 --> 1:23:30.000 the other side just doesn't care about. Yeah, And that's 1:23:30.040 --> 1:23:33.160 an excellent point because that's the big thing, you know 1:23:33.320 --> 1:23:36.680 with the army and law enforcement in general, like surveillance 1:23:36.680 --> 1:23:39.280 of us. They were in the police just their actions, 1:23:39.320 --> 1:23:43.320 their brazen actions on the street, like the riot police. Um, 1:23:43.439 --> 1:23:47.000 they were just breaking the law all the time. They 1:23:47.040 --> 1:23:52.240 absolutely have a deep visceral hatred of the Bill of Rights, 1:23:52.520 --> 1:23:55.400 of civil rights and civil liberties. And so there were 1:23:55.439 --> 1:23:59.160 a number of you know, court cases that sprung out 1:23:59.200 --> 1:24:02.519 of you know, this movement. There was a case called 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:08.200 Panagocus Vitari. Another Juliana Panagoucus was another PMR member co 1:24:08.360 --> 1:24:11.840 plaintiff in that case. And you know, is it a 1:24:11.840 --> 1:24:14.719 case against the army that you know, we we waged 1:24:14.760 --> 1:24:17.080 and brought up to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals 1:24:17.160 --> 1:24:20.639 and you know, eventually lost and it could have brought 1:24:20.640 --> 1:24:23.200 it to the Supreme Court but didn't. But you know, 1:24:23.280 --> 1:24:25.479 like the the other thing is like the violation of 1:24:25.479 --> 1:24:28.320 the Posse Commentatus Act. It was a whole other thing. 1:24:28.520 --> 1:24:30.160 You know, we don't have to get like so tied 1:24:30.200 --> 1:24:33.679 up into like the legalistic thing. But like the point, 1:24:34.160 --> 1:24:37.200 your point is valid, Like they don't care about the 1:24:37.280 --> 1:24:40.800 laws that are already there. They'll they'll just intentionally break them, 1:24:41.120 --> 1:24:43.080 break their own laws. That they have set up and 1:24:43.920 --> 1:24:45.559 you know, they'll just get a slap on the wrist 1:24:45.640 --> 1:24:50.240 because that's really all that's all that happens to them. 1:24:50.280 --> 1:24:51.720 I think, I think I think that's a good note 1:24:51.760 --> 1:24:56.519 to end on break the law. It's fake, it's also bad. Um. 1:24:56.560 --> 1:24:59.040 Do you two have anything you want to plug other 1:24:59.080 --> 1:25:01.479 than that, other than you know, encouraging people to break 1:25:01.520 --> 1:25:09.840 the do any cage your local port? Yeah? Yeah, I 1:25:09.880 --> 1:25:14.000 mean I I think it's you know, I guess just 1:25:14.200 --> 1:25:17.320 encourage people to do as you know, it sounds like 1:25:17.320 --> 1:25:19.559 what we're doing by having us on the show, and 1:25:19.640 --> 1:25:24.320 like there are some in our very recent history, um, 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:27.959 you know, movements and winds that we all as activists 1:25:27.960 --> 1:25:32.200 today can still learn from. And I think part of that, um, 1:25:32.240 --> 1:25:34.000 you know, I don't want to call us elders because 1:25:34.000 --> 1:25:36.439 we're not that old, but like one part of that 1:25:36.600 --> 1:25:39.960 is like making sure like our movements are still like 1:25:40.320 --> 1:25:43.880 a multi generational and like we we learned from each 1:25:43.920 --> 1:25:47.559 other and also as as Juliana and I did, like 1:25:47.800 --> 1:25:50.640 I mentioned earlier, like we learned from the movements of 1:25:50.680 --> 1:25:55.800 the past, sts, the Black Panthers, the Black Freedom Movement, etcetera. Um, 1:25:55.800 --> 1:25:58.519 but there's a lot that you know, these these struggles 1:25:58.560 --> 1:26:04.240 I think have to offer us today. All right, thank 1:26:04.320 --> 1:26:06.120 thank you, Thank you both for talking coming on and 1:26:06.160 --> 1:26:10.760 talking with us. You're for having us. Thank you. Well, 1:26:10.800 --> 1:26:13.120 this is this has when it could happen here find 1:26:13.200 --> 1:26:17.400 us at happened here pod on Twitter, Instagram, and the 1:26:17.479 --> 1:26:20.479 rest of our stuff is at closoned media at the 1:26:20.560 --> 1:26:24.280 same somewhat accursed social media places. I don't know why 1:26:24.280 --> 1:26:28.720 I'm saying somewhat, they're just a cursed Yeah, see you 1:26:29.200 --> 1:26:45.920 next time whenever that is, Welcome back to it could 1:26:45.920 --> 1:26:48.920 happen here, the show about things not being great and 1:26:49.120 --> 1:26:52.880 maybe trying to make them better. UM, I'm Robert Evans. Uh. 1:26:52.960 --> 1:26:55.320 This week we got we have a special little little 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:58.920 little episode for you. UM, I'm gonna sit down and 1:26:58.920 --> 1:27:02.960 talk with Lucas Herndon. UM. Lucas, you are from New 1:27:03.200 --> 1:27:05.880 or you live in New Mexico at least, um, and 1:27:06.080 --> 1:27:07.479 you wanted to talk to me a bit about some 1:27:07.520 --> 1:27:09.439 stuff that's going on in your school boards. We just 1:27:09.439 --> 1:27:12.439 did a two parter on fascist attempts to kind of 1:27:12.479 --> 1:27:15.040 take over and dominate school boards around the country, and 1:27:15.080 --> 1:27:17.360 you've got some personal experience with that, so I wanted 1:27:17.400 --> 1:27:19.280 to kind of just turn this over to you to 1:27:19.439 --> 1:27:23.280 start us off. Yeah, thanks for Robert, thanks for having 1:27:23.280 --> 1:27:25.519 me on the show. Um. Yeah, my name is Lucas 1:27:25.640 --> 1:27:27.680 and I live in Las Cruces, New Mexico, which is 1:27:28.160 --> 1:27:29.720 in the southern part of the state. Were close to 1:27:29.720 --> 1:27:33.040 the border for people that are interested. Um and yeah, 1:27:33.240 --> 1:27:36.840 like you know that my experience had happened last week 1:27:36.880 --> 1:27:41.520 is sort of the quintessential. It could happen here, Yeah, 1:27:41.920 --> 1:27:46.839 did exactly. Plus Las Cruces, Um, politically speaking, is actually 1:27:46.840 --> 1:27:50.240 a very progressive little time. I mean, in general, New 1:27:50.280 --> 1:27:53.679 Mexico has been for what you know, however you consider 1:27:53.720 --> 1:27:57.000 the progressive or not. Is has been blue for quite 1:27:57.040 --> 1:27:59.120 a while. As in terms of like voting like it's 1:27:59.160 --> 1:28:03.760 not it's not like Texas politically at least right that's 1:28:03.840 --> 1:28:06.439 yeah exactly. Yeah, we voted for we voted for Bush 1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:10.360 the first time, but have voted blue every election since 1:28:10.360 --> 1:28:14.639 two thousands four. Like federally, so in my little stretch 1:28:14.680 --> 1:28:17.960 of the of the state, our congressional district has been read. 1:28:18.439 --> 1:28:21.160 But the city of Los Cruces, which is the like 1:28:21.280 --> 1:28:23.360 where the biggest city in the southern part of the state, 1:28:23.360 --> 1:28:26.160 where the second biggest city in the state. UM. Our 1:28:26.200 --> 1:28:30.360 city council has not only been democratic, but like progressively democratic. 1:28:30.800 --> 1:28:35.479 UM we have UM as of this recent election, you know, 1:28:35.520 --> 1:28:37.920 from the beginning of November, we now have an all 1:28:38.000 --> 1:28:42.880 female city council. UM there is at least we have 1:28:43.240 --> 1:28:48.519 UM one one if not too trying to think. Sorry. 1:28:49.120 --> 1:28:52.000 Currently there are two UM folks on the city council 1:28:52.040 --> 1:28:54.880 have immigrated from Mexico in their life. UM one will 1:28:54.880 --> 1:28:58.639 still be on one is now running for Congress. UM 1:28:59.200 --> 1:29:02.920 we have UM. The school board that currently is sitting 1:29:03.120 --> 1:29:05.840 is generally progressive, and the one we just elected, we 1:29:05.920 --> 1:29:10.680 just elected our first openly queer person onto that school board. UM. 1:29:10.800 --> 1:29:13.519 Our little group of of legislators that go up to 1:29:13.560 --> 1:29:17.120 Santa Fe every year is very progressive. So again, just 1:29:17.160 --> 1:29:19.840 to kind of reiterate, like Las Cruces, New Mexico, pretty 1:29:19.840 --> 1:29:23.840 progressive little place. And yet at the school board meeting 1:29:23.880 --> 1:29:28.479 last week, UM totally dominated by a public attendance of 1:29:29.320 --> 1:29:34.000 very far right extremists, UM spouting all kinds of nonsense 1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:36.400 about all kinds of things. So yeah, it was pretty 1:29:36.400 --> 1:29:38.600 well yeah, and this, I mean, this has happened. This 1:29:38.640 --> 1:29:41.560 happened in Portland, Oregon, too, which is also famously. I 1:29:41.600 --> 1:29:45.600 don't know. I wouldn't call Portland politics progressive but solidly democratic. 1:29:46.200 --> 1:29:48.559 And the the school board meeting gets taken over by by 1:29:48.600 --> 1:29:52.160 far right activists. This is a yeah, So when did 1:29:52.200 --> 1:29:57.400 you kind of first become aware of this? Well? So, um, 1:29:57.439 --> 1:29:59.799 it was it was a weird convergence of my personal 1:30:00.080 --> 1:30:02.280 end my and my private or I'm sorry, my personal 1:30:02.280 --> 1:30:07.360 and my professional life where I um, I work for 1:30:07.400 --> 1:30:09.760 an organization called progress Now in Mexico, so it's like 1:30:09.880 --> 1:30:14.479 I do progressive politics for a living. But um and 1:30:14.800 --> 1:30:16.479 a colleague who works for the A C. L U 1:30:16.640 --> 1:30:19.360 here had asked if I would go and help lend 1:30:19.400 --> 1:30:23.040 support to this gender inclusion policy that the school board 1:30:23.120 --> 1:30:26.360 was going to be um commenting on. They weren't voting 1:30:26.360 --> 1:30:28.200 on it that day. It was what's called a first reading, 1:30:28.760 --> 1:30:31.479 and she asked if I could go and if I could, 1:30:31.560 --> 1:30:33.320 you know, just speak, and I was like, yeah, absolutely, 1:30:33.640 --> 1:30:35.479 be happy too. So I was gonna go and and 1:30:35.520 --> 1:30:39.760 talk about this in a i'm sorry, professional capacity. And 1:30:39.800 --> 1:30:44.120 then that day, um, as like before I went to that, 1:30:44.640 --> 1:30:47.639 my daughter, who's in middle school, texted me a picture 1:30:47.800 --> 1:30:52.080 a bunch of kids had on Monday of of last 1:30:52.120 --> 1:30:55.679 week which was like trans Awareness Week or Transvisibility Week. 1:30:56.920 --> 1:30:59.759 Some kids had shown up wearing trans flags and Pride 1:30:59.760 --> 1:31:03.200 flag eggs on that Monday. The following day, that Tuesday, 1:31:03.640 --> 1:31:06.879 some kids showed up wearing UM thin blue line flags 1:31:07.080 --> 1:31:12.160 in in response like indirect response um and in my 1:31:12.240 --> 1:31:14.080 daughter and you know, my daughter is aware enough to 1:31:14.120 --> 1:31:16.400 know what that means. So she texted me and I 1:31:16.479 --> 1:31:17.880 was like, I can't believe this ship and I was 1:31:17.920 --> 1:31:20.240 like I know. Um. So then I'm like right. So 1:31:20.280 --> 1:31:21.600 then I'm like, okay, well, now I want to go 1:31:21.680 --> 1:31:25.800 speak about this gender inclusion bill or policy personally right 1:31:25.840 --> 1:31:29.559 like now like has impacted me. Um. So I show 1:31:29.680 --> 1:31:32.559 up at you know, about an hour before the meeting 1:31:32.600 --> 1:31:36.040 is supposed to start. Because the third thing that kind 1:31:36.040 --> 1:31:39.320 of happened was that I, um, I am, I'm on 1:31:39.400 --> 1:31:41.559 like a bunch of mailing lists because of my job. 1:31:41.960 --> 1:31:46.240 And sure enough the local gop um, who is not 1:31:46.360 --> 1:31:48.639 very active because again they kind of lose all the time, 1:31:48.880 --> 1:31:51.479 they sent out a like come show up at this thing, 1:31:52.280 --> 1:31:55.360 you know email. So I showed up early, thinking okay, 1:31:55.400 --> 1:31:57.240 well I want to see if there's gonna be something. 1:31:57.680 --> 1:31:59.240 And at first I was like, oh, like I don't 1:31:59.280 --> 1:32:01.240 think they showed up. Don't think that they turned out. 1:32:01.479 --> 1:32:03.720 That's good. But it turns out they were all like 1:32:03.800 --> 1:32:07.160 hiding in their cars so that they could like swarm 1:32:07.240 --> 1:32:10.400 the building at once. And so then like about half 1:32:10.439 --> 1:32:12.719 an hour before the meeting, they all walked in at once, 1:32:12.760 --> 1:32:15.439 and like I was already sitting inside the room, and 1:32:15.479 --> 1:32:17.040 they all came in at once, and they took over 1:32:17.080 --> 1:32:21.320 all the chairs. They was standing room only. Um to 1:32:21.400 --> 1:32:24.240 the point where like the there was a bunch of 1:32:24.320 --> 1:32:25.960 f f A kids that were there that was supposed 1:32:26.000 --> 1:32:28.760 to be recognized for you know, f A something or other, 1:32:29.200 --> 1:32:32.080 and like they had to kick some people out so 1:32:32.120 --> 1:32:35.519 that they weren't violating the fire code. Um that's how many. Yeah, 1:32:36.000 --> 1:32:39.040 So anyway, that's kind of how it all. That's the 1:32:39.040 --> 1:32:42.599 setting for where this all happened. Um. It turns out 1:32:42.640 --> 1:32:45.040 that at the same meeting there was gonna be a 1:32:45.040 --> 1:32:48.400 policy discussion on a different policy that had to do 1:32:48.479 --> 1:32:53.640 with New Mexico's revision of Social Studies standards. Um, and 1:32:53.680 --> 1:32:56.599 of course that got everybody hot and bothered about so 1:32:56.640 --> 1:33:01.680 called c RT, which isn't a thing. But so like 1:33:01.720 --> 1:33:03.519 they were there, but I mean, but the folks that 1:33:03.560 --> 1:33:05.080 showed up to speak. I mean they were all over 1:33:05.120 --> 1:33:07.439 the place. They were talking about critical race theory, they 1:33:07.439 --> 1:33:10.200 were talking about the Gender Inclusion Bill and like trans 1:33:10.360 --> 1:33:13.599 violent the myth of trans violence and um. But then 1:33:13.640 --> 1:33:16.240 of course like like COVID protocols and all kinds of 1:33:16.360 --> 1:33:20.040 I mean just again like way out their stuff, um 1:33:20.400 --> 1:33:22.679 and actually kind of funny. I was listening to Knowledge 1:33:22.720 --> 1:33:25.519 Fight this morning, and uh, Jordan and Dan really hit 1:33:25.600 --> 1:33:28.479 on it that like they have just figured out that 1:33:28.520 --> 1:33:30.680 these are places they can go and yell and like 1:33:31.320 --> 1:33:34.160 no one, you know, like school board people aren't gonna 1:33:34.240 --> 1:33:36.120 like they're all just these are all just like teachers, 1:33:36.120 --> 1:33:37.960 like retired teachers who are on these school boards and 1:33:37.960 --> 1:33:39.800 they're like they're not there to just you know, have 1:33:39.920 --> 1:33:42.800 these like whatever discussions, so they're not gonna you know, 1:33:42.800 --> 1:33:44.679 they just like let these people yell and they did. 1:33:45.240 --> 1:33:48.800 So anyways, it got it got heated, uh pretty quickly, 1:33:48.840 --> 1:33:51.800 because I mean again, these people just like go off 1:33:51.840 --> 1:33:53.840 and they get they riled themselves up and those lots 1:33:53.840 --> 1:33:57.160 of applause and anyway, that's kind of how it all started, 1:33:57.200 --> 1:34:00.519 I guess, or that's what it was. And I mean, 1:34:00.560 --> 1:34:02.679 has has there have you noticed kind of any sort 1:34:02.680 --> 1:34:05.519 of mobilization in the community now that this has happened, 1:34:05.520 --> 1:34:07.240 because it seems like the first ones of these, at 1:34:07.320 --> 1:34:10.080 least always take everybody by surprise. People are not used 1:34:10.080 --> 1:34:13.040 to still not really used to school board meetings being 1:34:13.200 --> 1:34:16.640 um shall I say interesting, Um, certainly important, but like 1:34:16.720 --> 1:34:18.639 not a thing that you have to really be concerned 1:34:18.640 --> 1:34:21.120 about for the most part. And that's that's changing. Have 1:34:21.200 --> 1:34:26.040 you seen the community kind of start to adapt to that. Yeah, 1:34:26.280 --> 1:34:28.719 you know, since so, you know, I put some content 1:34:28.800 --> 1:34:33.519 out on my you know, local Twitter, um and and 1:34:33.520 --> 1:34:37.240 and um got some traction there thanks to sort your retweet, 1:34:37.280 --> 1:34:40.200 I think. But um, but then the biggest thing was 1:34:40.240 --> 1:34:44.240 that kind of going back to what had happened at 1:34:44.280 --> 1:34:48.360 my daughter's school, that progress that got worse, if you will. 1:34:48.600 --> 1:34:51.479 The following day, the Wednesday of last week, some kids 1:34:51.479 --> 1:34:55.439 showed up in an actual Confederate stars and bars flag, um, 1:34:55.760 --> 1:35:01.200 which is yeah, that's nuts. Has famed Confederate state New Mexico. 1:35:03.479 --> 1:35:06.760 You know, Messia, New Mexico, which is right down the road. 1:35:06.920 --> 1:35:11.599 Was it was the capital of the Confederate territory. But yeah, 1:35:11.920 --> 1:35:13.640 but it wasn't a state at that point. It was 1:35:13.680 --> 1:35:16.920 not a state, and I'm not aware of were their 1:35:16.920 --> 1:35:19.120 battles in New Mexico. And I know we had some 1:35:19.240 --> 1:35:21.840 in like further south Texas than you would think, but 1:35:21.880 --> 1:35:23.920 I was not there of any. There's a couple there 1:35:23.960 --> 1:35:26.840 was one of famously up north called the Battle of Greetta, 1:35:27.080 --> 1:35:29.960 and then and then there was one here where I live. 1:35:30.400 --> 1:35:32.639 Wasn't a battle. It was a bunch of confederates got 1:35:32.840 --> 1:35:37.000 um stranded and super drunk, and then I couldn't cross 1:35:37.080 --> 1:35:39.160 the desert fast enough, so they got stranded up in 1:35:39.160 --> 1:35:41.639 the mountains in a place called Baylor Canyon. And then 1:35:42.760 --> 1:35:45.120 they get to the top and like the North was 1:35:45.200 --> 1:35:47.120 just sitting there like waiting for them and was like, 1:35:47.240 --> 1:35:51.640 well you're captured now, We'll see. That's clearly that's some 1:35:51.800 --> 1:35:58.400 history worth celebrating right there. Yeah. I think that the biggest, 1:35:58.600 --> 1:36:00.960 like one of the scariest but biggest things is like 1:36:01.160 --> 1:36:03.200 and this goes towards this is a slight tangent, but 1:36:03.240 --> 1:36:05.800 like the social studies revision, for instance, in the state 1:36:05.800 --> 1:36:09.519 of New Mexico. Uh, there are two paragraphs in our 1:36:09.560 --> 1:36:13.960 history book about the Gaston purchase. Um Like I live 1:36:14.240 --> 1:36:20.280 in the chunk. That is the guest and Purchase, and um, 1:36:20.320 --> 1:36:23.240 like the guests and Purchase is like James Gaston was 1:36:23.280 --> 1:36:27.240 a notorious racist who left the South and took all 1:36:27.280 --> 1:36:31.320 of his railroad money, went to California and Mexico, lobbying hard, 1:36:31.439 --> 1:36:34.000 using his influence and money to try to create a 1:36:34.000 --> 1:36:36.640 slave state in Baja in Mexico. Like that's what he 1:36:36.680 --> 1:36:40.120 was trying to do, and like that part of the 1:36:40.400 --> 1:36:42.479 that part of the context of why the guests and 1:36:42.479 --> 1:36:46.280 Purchase even happened is like totally left out of history books, 1:36:46.320 --> 1:36:48.160 and its like if anywhere it should be taught, it 1:36:48.160 --> 1:36:50.000 should be taught in the place that is called the 1:36:50.000 --> 1:36:52.120 guest and Purchase when it comes to the United States. 1:36:52.160 --> 1:36:56.400 So anyway, just a little tangent there why it's important 1:36:56.400 --> 1:37:00.280 to have context in history. Um so sorry, go back 1:37:00.320 --> 1:37:02.599 to my daughter's school and these kids wearing the stupid 1:37:02.600 --> 1:37:07.760 stars and bars so um that. So like I went 1:37:07.800 --> 1:37:10.559 and spoke to the assistant principle and was like, so 1:37:11.000 --> 1:37:14.240 I understand that your answer to this was to ban 1:37:14.360 --> 1:37:18.040 all flags and he was like and he was like yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:37:18.040 --> 1:37:20.320 because they're causing a disruption to education. And I was 1:37:20.360 --> 1:37:23.040 like yeah, but I you know, I think I feel 1:37:23.080 --> 1:37:25.280 like you're giving a false equivalency to like, you know, 1:37:25.479 --> 1:37:31.840 gender and and pride acknowledgment to flag. Yeah, it's it's 1:37:31.920 --> 1:37:33.840 I mean, it's this constant. This has happened in a 1:37:33.880 --> 1:37:36.240 couple of places, including a town in Oregon, where it's 1:37:36.280 --> 1:37:39.439 like this is sort of the the centrist and kind 1:37:39.439 --> 1:37:41.200 of the right wing solution to this. It is just 1:37:41.200 --> 1:37:45.320 that like, well, if if kids can't wear racist hate flags, 1:37:45.360 --> 1:37:48.599 then gay kids can't wear a flag that says that 1:37:48.640 --> 1:37:51.120 their existence is valid. Uh, you know, because those are 1:37:51.160 --> 1:37:55.400 the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's frustrating. It is frustrating. 1:37:55.520 --> 1:37:59.519 So that was not my favorite thing. Um. And so 1:37:59.640 --> 1:38:02.800 then the culmination of that this week was that my 1:38:02.880 --> 1:38:07.360 daughter's social studies teacher, who had allowed the kids in 1:38:07.400 --> 1:38:10.599 her class to make little paper flags after the real 1:38:10.640 --> 1:38:17.040 flags were banned, um, was fired. Jesus Christ. And because 1:38:17.080 --> 1:38:19.599 it's a personnel matter, no one was willing to tell 1:38:19.640 --> 1:38:22.320 me more. I've I've called the president of the school 1:38:22.720 --> 1:38:25.320 school board, who actually, in all fairness, he doesn't actually 1:38:25.320 --> 1:38:27.479 probably have that much sway over these kinds of things. 1:38:27.560 --> 1:38:29.840 I would imagine that happened at a level a level 1:38:30.320 --> 1:38:32.760 that was not his. But yeah, yeah, but I mean, 1:38:32.800 --> 1:38:34.720 but I but I have anyway, so I did call him. 1:38:34.760 --> 1:38:38.080 I also called the school and got very little information 1:38:38.120 --> 1:38:42.120 from them obviously, so you know who knows. But again, 1:38:42.400 --> 1:38:44.600 like that's how it was perceived from the kids in 1:38:44.600 --> 1:38:49.280 her class. Um, and that's so like what we know 1:38:49.479 --> 1:38:52.400 happened is that we know that after the flags got banned, 1:38:52.439 --> 1:38:55.360 she let kids make flags out of paper and hang 1:38:55.439 --> 1:38:58.559 them up, and by Friday she was gone. So like 1:38:58.720 --> 1:39:03.920 not a great response, no, not not not ideal not yeah, 1:39:04.720 --> 1:39:06.559 so anyway, that's kind of where we left at. But 1:39:06.600 --> 1:39:08.600 I guess maybe what maybe what I should say to 1:39:08.600 --> 1:39:10.680 get back to your original question, which is to say, like, 1:39:10.720 --> 1:39:13.960 have we seen a mobilization that yeah, Like so I 1:39:14.040 --> 1:39:19.600 learned the newspaper the reporter who that teacher like a 1:39:19.640 --> 1:39:22.640 couple of weeks ago, had actually been in the newspaper 1:39:22.680 --> 1:39:28.040 because she had also like um, she she spearheaded this 1:39:28.080 --> 1:39:30.760 like response like apport, like a girl who wore her 1:39:30.920 --> 1:39:34.519 job to school had been bullied, and like when news 1:39:34.560 --> 1:39:38.120 got around in the school, like the like the majority 1:39:38.160 --> 1:39:41.800 of the student body and this teacher like went up 1:39:41.800 --> 1:39:45.000 and above out of their way to make her feel 1:39:45.000 --> 1:39:46.920 welcome and like walk her to her class and like 1:39:46.960 --> 1:39:50.200 it got kind of viral on local TikTok, so like 1:39:50.320 --> 1:39:52.320 this teacher got quoted in the newspaper, so I like 1:39:52.600 --> 1:39:54.879 called them. I called the report. I tweeted the newspaper 1:39:54.880 --> 1:39:56.439 and I was like, like, you guys know that the 1:39:56.439 --> 1:40:00.800 teacher who was in like startlet in your article is 1:40:00.960 --> 1:40:03.640 fired for allowing kids to waste their thoughts about these 1:40:03.640 --> 1:40:05.840 flags things, right, And they were like no, we didn't know, 1:40:05.880 --> 1:40:08.880 And I was like you should probably find more. So 1:40:08.880 --> 1:40:10.600 so you know, I don't know where we're gonna be 1:40:10.600 --> 1:40:14.559 at now. The next reading for the gender Inclusion policy 1:40:14.720 --> 1:40:18.960 is um December, so we've got a couple of weeks 1:40:18.960 --> 1:40:22.519 before that next school board meeting. UM. I think that 1:40:22.640 --> 1:40:25.080 on my end, like there's gonna be some local organizing 1:40:25.120 --> 1:40:29.000 to try to get some better, more inclusive voices to 1:40:29.080 --> 1:40:32.559 be a part of things. UM. I don't, you know, 1:40:32.680 --> 1:40:36.160 I don't know what the interim will hold, um, because 1:40:36.160 --> 1:40:37.640 it's like, you know, it's the holidays and there's a 1:40:37.680 --> 1:40:41.519 lot going on and Kyle rittenhouse and build Black better. 1:40:41.680 --> 1:40:43.200 I mean there's like, you know, there's always a million 1:40:43.200 --> 1:40:45.760 things happening, so it'll you know, there will have to 1:40:45.800 --> 1:40:48.000 be some drum beating to like get people to show 1:40:48.080 --> 1:40:50.200 up to that. But on the other hand, I think 1:40:50.560 --> 1:40:54.200 with some of the momentum we have and I think 1:40:54.240 --> 1:40:57.639 people will show up in mass for the fourteenth um 1:40:57.680 --> 1:41:00.000 in support at least this is the kind of community 1:41:00.040 --> 1:41:02.960 me that in general we have shown up and shown 1:41:02.960 --> 1:41:05.240 out to support you know, these kinds of issues in 1:41:05.240 --> 1:41:07.320 the past. But I do think that up until now 1:41:07.880 --> 1:41:11.439 people felt for pretty asleep about it. Yeah, I mean, 1:41:11.600 --> 1:41:15.360 and hopefully you do see the kind of response you're expecting. 1:41:15.640 --> 1:41:18.800 Can you walk me through sort of how the kind 1:41:18.800 --> 1:41:21.920 of attempts like you talked about getting the local media 1:41:21.960 --> 1:41:24.439 aware of what had happened to that teacher, Um, how 1:41:24.479 --> 1:41:27.320 are people like what is the actual organizing effort look 1:41:27.360 --> 1:41:28.840 like on the ground, Like how are you trying? How 1:41:28.880 --> 1:41:30.720 are you and others trying to get the word out 1:41:30.800 --> 1:41:34.559 so that you know there's a response to this. Yeah. 1:41:34.640 --> 1:41:39.960 So I think that the first thing is is that 1:41:40.160 --> 1:41:45.760 there was there was a problem with the way that 1:41:45.840 --> 1:41:49.720 the school board handled public comment that first time. In 1:41:49.760 --> 1:41:55.080 an attempt to help limit their own sort of exposure 1:41:55.120 --> 1:41:56.960 to some of the toxic stuff they knew was coming 1:41:57.000 --> 1:42:01.679 their way, they had they had instituted UH a limit 1:42:01.840 --> 1:42:06.040 on public comment. Um, you had to show up by 1:42:06.080 --> 1:42:08.080 a certain time and fill out these little pieces of 1:42:08.120 --> 1:42:10.160 paper saying that you were there to comment about something, 1:42:10.400 --> 1:42:12.160 and if you weren't there, then you couldn't sign up. 1:42:12.439 --> 1:42:15.200 And the problem was was that all these like old 1:42:15.560 --> 1:42:20.599 white male retirees who are sitting around listening to Alex 1:42:20.680 --> 1:42:23.320 Jones all day, they had nothing better to do than 1:42:23.360 --> 1:42:25.759 show up to this meeting at three o'clock in the afternoon, 1:42:26.160 --> 1:42:30.400 whereas a bunch of for instance, teachers, students, parents, UM, 1:42:30.439 --> 1:42:32.479 they were busy because they were in school or like 1:42:32.520 --> 1:42:35.800 picking their kids up from school. UM. So I think 1:42:35.800 --> 1:42:37.160 one of the things that we're going to try to 1:42:37.160 --> 1:42:41.479 do is get public comment ahead of time, and we're 1:42:41.479 --> 1:42:44.240 gonna try to like bombard the not bombard that's that's 1:42:44.240 --> 1:42:46.280 a violent word. But we're gonna try to like just 1:42:46.360 --> 1:42:50.120 make sure that UM voices from the community that hadn't 1:42:50.120 --> 1:42:53.120 been represented are represented and sent to the school board 1:42:53.120 --> 1:42:55.640 ahead of time. UM. I think we're gonna try to 1:42:55.680 --> 1:42:58.720 go and save physical space ahead of time for those 1:42:58.720 --> 1:43:00.400 of us that can write, for those us that can 1:43:00.479 --> 1:43:03.040 will go, and we'll try to save physical space. And 1:43:03.120 --> 1:43:05.919 we did learn that even if they keep that policy, 1:43:05.960 --> 1:43:09.760 for the little forms we can we can actually give 1:43:09.760 --> 1:43:12.000 that time. We can fill out other people's names, right, 1:43:12.000 --> 1:43:13.680 So we're gonna try to like make sure that we 1:43:13.760 --> 1:43:16.320 have better voices. That was one of the things if 1:43:16.320 --> 1:43:18.040 you listen to the recording of what I said at 1:43:18.040 --> 1:43:21.519 that meeting. Um, I asked the school board president if 1:43:21.560 --> 1:43:24.200 it's possible for me to yield my time because it 1:43:24.240 --> 1:43:27.760 had literally been like a dozen white men out there 1:43:27.760 --> 1:43:32.080 spouting nonsense. And then I get up there and I'm like, yeah, hey, um, 1:43:32.120 --> 1:43:34.680 we've heard from enough white men. Can we have like 1:43:34.800 --> 1:43:36.880 a member of the trans community or one of the 1:43:36.880 --> 1:43:39.639 women of color who are here to talk about this, um, 1:43:39.640 --> 1:43:42.320 but couldn't get here in time. And there they're legal 1:43:42.320 --> 1:43:44.120 team was like, oh no, that you didn't sign up 1:43:44.160 --> 1:43:46.559 in time or whatever. So um, but it turns out 1:43:46.600 --> 1:43:48.800 we could have put their names down ahead of time. 1:43:48.800 --> 1:43:51.160 So we're gonna try to organize that thing so that 1:43:51.200 --> 1:43:54.360 people can show up and save you know, physical space. Um. 1:43:54.439 --> 1:43:57.640 And then UM. I think the other thing too is 1:43:57.720 --> 1:44:00.360 to try to involve some other local elected office shows 1:44:00.400 --> 1:44:02.880 from the county and city level, because again, we have 1:44:02.960 --> 1:44:06.280 these really amazing progressive candidates who have come from all 1:44:06.280 --> 1:44:09.760 walks of life, including immigrants and members of the l 1:44:09.800 --> 1:44:13.599 g B t q A community. UM So having them 1:44:13.720 --> 1:44:17.559 come and speak in their official capacity, UM I think 1:44:17.560 --> 1:44:20.920 will carry a lot of weight um for the both 1:44:20.920 --> 1:44:22.799 for the school board, but also just for the public 1:44:22.880 --> 1:44:27.120 to hear from those voices. Yeah, where are these like? 1:44:27.400 --> 1:44:29.200 Have you have you gotten any kind of research on 1:44:29.280 --> 1:44:31.479 where the people showing up are coming from? Are these 1:44:31.520 --> 1:44:34.400 like folks within your community or these people coming from 1:44:34.479 --> 1:44:37.920 kind of outlying areas? Um to swarm these meetings? Like? 1:44:38.040 --> 1:44:40.920 Is there is there kind of an active research contingent. 1:44:42.080 --> 1:44:44.080 I mean, that's part of what I do. It's part 1:44:44.120 --> 1:44:46.400 of part of my job with Progress Now New Mexico. 1:44:46.560 --> 1:44:49.679 My my title is Energy Policy Director. I usually spend 1:44:49.760 --> 1:44:52.799 most of my day talking about oil and gas stuff. However, 1:44:52.840 --> 1:44:55.679 I've been doing this job long enough that before I 1:44:55.720 --> 1:45:00.160 became that person, I was actively researching and track a 1:45:00.160 --> 1:45:02.400 lot of white supremacy activity in the in the state, 1:45:02.479 --> 1:45:05.960 especially along the border, some of the border militia stuff 1:45:06.000 --> 1:45:09.840 a couple of years back. So in that regard, I 1:45:09.920 --> 1:45:12.120 knew and I knew a number of these folks. A 1:45:12.120 --> 1:45:15.519 lot of them do live in the city, but so 1:45:15.560 --> 1:45:18.240 our our county is considered rural by the census, even 1:45:18.240 --> 1:45:20.280 though we're a city of a hundred thousand people. But 1:45:20.720 --> 1:45:23.280 we're a big county. So there's there's two people here, 1:45:23.560 --> 1:45:26.360 so um, so there's you know, it's it's hard to 1:45:26.400 --> 1:45:28.400 tell how many people may or may not have lived in, 1:45:28.680 --> 1:45:31.400 for instance, the public school district. But what I can 1:45:31.640 --> 1:45:34.160 tell you, like hands down, is that of those dozen 1:45:34.200 --> 1:45:38.200 folks that spoke before I did, like, there's no way 1:45:38.240 --> 1:45:40.519 that at least I mean, maybe one or two of 1:45:40.560 --> 1:45:42.960 them had kids that could have gone through the laws 1:45:42.960 --> 1:45:46.280 cruses public school system, but like the majority of them 1:45:46.600 --> 1:45:49.120 far and away, like either aren't from here at all, 1:45:49.920 --> 1:45:51.759 or you know, they've lived here for a long time, 1:45:51.840 --> 1:45:54.479 but they are They are not active parents or even 1:45:54.560 --> 1:45:57.120 grandparents of kids that live and will go to school 1:45:57.120 --> 1:46:01.839 in this in this district. They're just they're just agitated wingers. Yeah, 1:46:01.920 --> 1:46:04.120 And it's how does this all tie in? Because New 1:46:04.160 --> 1:46:06.439 Mexico's had I think it's kind of been on the 1:46:06.479 --> 1:46:08.880 back burner in terms of like national attention, but y'all 1:46:08.920 --> 1:46:11.640 have had some really significant dust ups, not just with 1:46:11.800 --> 1:46:13.760 you know, the border militias, for years there have been 1:46:13.840 --> 1:46:17.360 violent um acts and even murders as the result of 1:46:17.520 --> 1:46:21.240 that stuff going on. But like during last year's the 1:46:21.320 --> 1:46:24.679 protest over George Floyd's murder, y'all had some really ugly 1:46:25.400 --> 1:46:28.479 who's should we the dueling rallies were like right wingers 1:46:28.840 --> 1:46:33.440 shot at people, um and and some really some nasty situations. 1:46:33.439 --> 1:46:36.240 I'm wondering, are like those folks like, are you seeing 1:46:36.280 --> 1:46:39.720 that kind of organization being brought into the school board 1:46:39.760 --> 1:46:42.479 meeting or is this just kind of bubbling up as 1:46:42.520 --> 1:46:47.400 part of the same stew it is. Yeah, there, it's 1:46:47.439 --> 1:46:51.920 loosely affiliated for sure, um and and the crossover, the 1:46:51.960 --> 1:46:56.040 crossover is hard to tell depend I mean, what am 1:46:56.040 --> 1:46:59.040 I trying to say? There's there is crossover, It's hard 1:46:59.080 --> 1:47:03.200 to tell how on purposes or sort of the fact 1:47:03.240 --> 1:47:06.559 that this is like a small population community states, right, 1:47:06.960 --> 1:47:09.639 So what I what I mean by that is that 1:47:10.400 --> 1:47:14.400 some of the some of the physical white supremacists who 1:47:14.439 --> 1:47:19.080 showed up last year at one of our um BLM 1:47:19.200 --> 1:47:24.680 support you know, George Floyd related peaceful protests, who they 1:47:24.680 --> 1:47:27.160 showed up at a parking lot across the street, you know, 1:47:27.400 --> 1:47:30.679 armed long guns, tech vests, all that kind of stuff 1:47:31.600 --> 1:47:34.559 who that those were the folks that when I when 1:47:34.600 --> 1:47:37.439 I went and filmed them and put them on blast 1:47:37.680 --> 1:47:40.599 to to try and sort of out them as best 1:47:40.680 --> 1:47:44.400 we possibly could, or at least identify them. Um, they 1:47:44.479 --> 1:47:47.800 came back and docked me as and then went after 1:47:48.280 --> 1:47:51.360 UM a number of my colleagues up north in Albuquerque. 1:47:51.720 --> 1:47:54.519 That was about a week before there was the there 1:47:54.520 --> 1:47:57.679 was a shooting of of a UM anti fascist protester 1:47:57.800 --> 1:48:01.680 in Albuquerque, And it was during sort of all of 1:48:01.680 --> 1:48:04.800 that stuff that I was like trying to talk about 1:48:04.800 --> 1:48:08.519 all this out loud um and got tied into a 1:48:08.560 --> 1:48:10.920 few more other anti fascist voices in the state. So 1:48:10.960 --> 1:48:13.760 since then we've all been kind of working together. Um. 1:48:13.800 --> 1:48:17.439 We found each other on Twitter, thankfully. And so so 1:48:17.520 --> 1:48:19.679 what it seems like is is that like the folks 1:48:19.680 --> 1:48:23.680 that showed up to the school board meeting were what 1:48:23.760 --> 1:48:28.360 I'll call usual suspects, like politically active old you know, 1:48:28.800 --> 1:48:33.479 right wingers. That being said, UM, in that room, there 1:48:33.520 --> 1:48:37.839 were a number of people that I've identified as showing 1:48:37.960 --> 1:48:42.080 up to anti vax rallies, a number of the Trump 1:48:42.120 --> 1:48:45.559 train rallies that happened last year before the election, and 1:48:45.640 --> 1:48:51.120 at least one person who I recognized as being I 1:48:51.120 --> 1:48:54.920 have never seen carry firearm, but like has been at 1:48:55.400 --> 1:48:58.439 rallies where people were carrying firearms and that kind of thing, 1:48:58.680 --> 1:49:01.000 um in response to these you know, in response to 1:49:01.000 --> 1:49:05.679 like peaceful protests. So there is crossover for sure. Where 1:49:05.680 --> 1:49:08.000 do you see this going, like, because you've been kind 1:49:08.000 --> 1:49:11.160 of paying attention to this for a while, not just 1:49:11.320 --> 1:49:13.160 the school board stuff, but just kind of the general 1:49:13.200 --> 1:49:16.840 problem of right wing UM organizing in your area, Like 1:49:16.880 --> 1:49:18.760 where do you where do you see this heading within 1:49:18.840 --> 1:49:22.280 kind of the context of New Mexico. Well, I mean, 1:49:22.400 --> 1:49:26.400 so we haven't really talked about this, but like, so, well, 1:49:26.720 --> 1:49:29.360 while here in Los Cruces, we did really well, um 1:49:29.479 --> 1:49:32.599 during the November election in terms of our school board 1:49:32.600 --> 1:49:36.320 to be re elected a really good progressive school board 1:49:36.320 --> 1:49:40.280 president and two new good progressive candidates, including, like I said, 1:49:40.280 --> 1:49:43.679 the first you know, queer openly queer person. So that's amazing. However, 1:49:43.920 --> 1:49:47.960 up in Albuquerque, Uh, they lost seats to some of 1:49:48.000 --> 1:49:52.360 these far right wing UM candidates and um, so the 1:49:52.360 --> 1:49:58.519 Albuquerque school board is um not um not looking as 1:49:58.600 --> 1:50:02.360 good politically. So, I mean, so on the like I 1:50:02.360 --> 1:50:04.240 guess what i'd say is on the soft end, what 1:50:04.320 --> 1:50:09.759 I expect is more continued pressure in sort of the um, 1:50:10.680 --> 1:50:13.360 the way these things are supposed to happen, which is 1:50:13.400 --> 1:50:16.519 to say, like continued presence of the right wing folks 1:50:16.640 --> 1:50:20.679 at meetings, yelling, taking up space, UM, slowing things down, 1:50:21.200 --> 1:50:23.599 running for office when the time comes, you know, those 1:50:23.680 --> 1:50:26.400 kinds of things I see. UM, I guess I wouldn't 1:50:26.400 --> 1:50:30.479 be surprised though, if UM, if I if there were 1:50:30.560 --> 1:50:35.439 further escalation of things UM in a you know, in 1:50:35.760 --> 1:50:37.960 the way we've seen other places, in terms of some 1:50:38.040 --> 1:50:41.719 sort of you know, an armed response or somebody showing up. Um. 1:50:42.640 --> 1:50:44.400 You know, in New Mexico's an open carry state, and 1:50:44.439 --> 1:50:47.600 so people can walk around with guns all the time. Um. 1:50:47.880 --> 1:50:50.559 And and you know, I mean that's the thing too, 1:50:50.600 --> 1:50:52.320 is like, while I didn't see anybody with an open 1:50:52.320 --> 1:50:54.800 carried firearm at the school board meeting, there were guys 1:50:54.840 --> 1:50:58.760 wearing like, you know, Vortex Optics brand hats, thin blue 1:50:58.760 --> 1:51:01.000 line shirts, a guy with that like Remington's shirt, you know, 1:51:01.280 --> 1:51:04.000 And like, I don't regret anybody from gun culture. I'm 1:51:04.040 --> 1:51:05.760 you know, I'm a lefty with a gun. So it's 1:51:05.760 --> 1:51:09.280 like I get gun culture. But like when you show 1:51:09.400 --> 1:51:11.880 up in those things and then those spaces with that 1:51:11.960 --> 1:51:15.880 kind of yeah you're making a point yep, yeah, yeah, yeah, 1:51:16.040 --> 1:51:21.439 you're you're you're not Yeah, I get that. Um, have 1:51:21.640 --> 1:51:23.680 you is there some kind of have you seen like 1:51:24.160 --> 1:51:27.519 any kind of budding left wing armed response? Like, is 1:51:27.520 --> 1:51:29.600 there do you guys have like an organized group of 1:51:29.600 --> 1:51:31.920 folks who have been showing up? Um? When there are 1:51:32.000 --> 1:51:36.360 armed protests in the area. Um, I mean I always 1:51:36.400 --> 1:51:39.920 have my gear with me. UM. I mean, I've got 1:51:40.080 --> 1:51:42.320 I've got a ceramic plate, I've got my you know, 1:51:42.479 --> 1:51:45.320 rifle and pistol. I I am a member of a 1:51:45.400 --> 1:51:47.080 number of different groups. I've been a member of the 1:51:47.200 --> 1:51:51.040 s R A, UM, I've I've worked with some of 1:51:51.040 --> 1:51:53.519 the armed groups up in Albuquerque. So down here there 1:51:53.520 --> 1:51:56.439 hasn't been a ton but UM, I've got a I've 1:51:56.439 --> 1:51:58.920 got what I'll call a luciffiliation with a number of folks, 1:51:58.960 --> 1:52:01.519 and I would trust to to be armed if need be. 1:52:02.520 --> 1:52:06.120 Thankfully that hasn't happened yet. Thankfully, the one big, big 1:52:06.160 --> 1:52:08.439 protests that happened here in Las Cruces that I was 1:52:08.880 --> 1:52:11.040 sort of nervous about, and I did have my gear 1:52:11.120 --> 1:52:14.800 for remained peaceful and and we you know, we took 1:52:14.840 --> 1:52:17.320 over some streets since blocks traffic for a couple hours, 1:52:17.439 --> 1:52:20.679 and there was never any violent response from anybody other 1:52:20.720 --> 1:52:22.960 than maybe like one car at one point trying to 1:52:22.960 --> 1:52:25.600 push through and car got banged on, and that was 1:52:25.600 --> 1:52:30.880 about it. But um, so so, so, to answer your question, like, yes, 1:52:30.880 --> 1:52:33.439 there are those of us that are left wing and armed, 1:52:33.600 --> 1:52:37.280 and there are those of us that have been able 1:52:37.320 --> 1:52:39.720 to show out if we needed to. Thankfully we haven't 1:52:39.760 --> 1:52:43.240 had too at this point. Yeah, well, all right, I 1:52:43.280 --> 1:52:45.120 think that's everything I had to ask. Is there anything 1:52:45.120 --> 1:52:47.040 else you wanted to to get to to make sure 1:52:47.080 --> 1:52:50.000 to talk about today? Well, I just I mean, I 1:52:50.280 --> 1:52:53.040 would be I would be um not doing the best 1:52:53.040 --> 1:52:55.519 of my job if I didn't mention the fact that, 1:52:55.560 --> 1:52:58.400 like one of the so one of the talking points 1:52:58.400 --> 1:53:01.080 of the right wing here and our school board is 1:53:01.120 --> 1:53:06.360 that New Mexico's education system is is fifty feet in 1:53:06.400 --> 1:53:09.360 the country, and I the the my assumption is that 1:53:09.360 --> 1:53:13.680 that has to do with DC's public schools being counted. Um. 1:53:13.800 --> 1:53:16.639 So it's not a great Yeah, that's not a great record. 1:53:17.000 --> 1:53:19.920 It's not a it's not a great record. And um 1:53:20.000 --> 1:53:22.240 and and I and I you know, as a parent 1:53:22.320 --> 1:53:25.320 of a kid who's in the public schools. I uh, 1:53:25.360 --> 1:53:27.760 you know, I cannot ignore that, right. That's so that's 1:53:27.760 --> 1:53:30.439 a legitimate talking point. But the but the thing that 1:53:30.479 --> 1:53:32.559 they want to bring it about is that you know, there, 1:53:33.840 --> 1:53:36.599 you know, it's because we're trying to be gender inclusive. 1:53:36.680 --> 1:53:40.639 It's because we're trying to like you know, teach kids 1:53:40.680 --> 1:53:44.519 about like actual history that happened whatever. Um. And the 1:53:44.560 --> 1:53:48.839 reality is it's because our education system is, unlike most places, 1:53:49.640 --> 1:53:54.120 funded by the oil and guests industry and not by 1:53:54.160 --> 1:53:58.880 like our communities. Um. And so like you know, eighteen 1:53:58.880 --> 1:54:03.280 months ago, oil prices crashed, right and the State of 1:54:03.280 --> 1:54:06.080 New Mexico had to have an emergency special session for 1:54:06.120 --> 1:54:07.880 our legislature to figure out how we were gonna like 1:54:08.400 --> 1:54:13.080 fund things like cops and schools and like whatever. Um. 1:54:13.160 --> 1:54:15.720 And then like now, you know, oil and gas is 1:54:15.760 --> 1:54:18.519 like gangbusters and where you know, record prices, and like 1:54:18.840 --> 1:54:21.280 the State of Mexico has this like surplus budget. But 1:54:21.360 --> 1:54:24.479 the thing is is that like that that extra money 1:54:24.479 --> 1:54:26.439 that we're gonna get this time doesn't make up for 1:54:26.479 --> 1:54:29.639 the like cyclical bad you know way that we fund 1:54:29.680 --> 1:54:32.440 our schools. So I just want to like tie in that, 1:54:32.600 --> 1:54:36.680 like like all of these things tie in together, right, 1:54:36.680 --> 1:54:39.120 Like we can't talk about education in New Mexico without 1:54:39.160 --> 1:54:43.120 talking about the oil and gas funding and so anyway, 1:54:43.200 --> 1:54:45.920 so like because that's my you know, that's part of 1:54:45.920 --> 1:54:48.040 the reason why I was going to go talk about 1:54:48.080 --> 1:54:51.160 this stuff at the on my professional level, is that 1:54:51.680 --> 1:54:55.000 like I get to talk about education as an as 1:54:55.000 --> 1:54:57.800 an energy expert in the state of New Mexico because 1:54:58.600 --> 1:55:03.720 energy and education so intertwined here. Um and like when 1:55:03.720 --> 1:55:07.880 you have literal like Cooke Brothers founded UM and and 1:55:08.440 --> 1:55:11.640 UM like monetarily supplied think tanks in the state of 1:55:11.720 --> 1:55:15.760 New Mexico who are pushing out this kind of propaganda 1:55:15.800 --> 1:55:18.960 and encouraging people. So that there's a group called the 1:55:19.040 --> 1:55:22.760 Rio Grand Foundation and like another one called Power of 1:55:22.800 --> 1:55:26.640 the Future uh PTA, Power the Future in New Mexico. 1:55:26.880 --> 1:55:30.640 Like both of those organizations are like tied to the 1:55:30.720 --> 1:55:33.200 Cooke Brothers because the Kokee Brothers are tied to oil 1:55:33.720 --> 1:55:37.800 and they're pushing these right wing talking points UM and 1:55:37.840 --> 1:55:39.920 it's all part and parcel of just like you know, 1:55:40.080 --> 1:55:43.360 clouding the information space. That's what they want to do. 1:55:43.400 --> 1:55:45.120 They want to have, they want to have the new 1:55:45.200 --> 1:55:48.200 cycle dominated with things like CRT and gender inclusion studies 1:55:48.520 --> 1:55:52.240 to you know, to tie up things like school boards 1:55:52.560 --> 1:55:55.640 so that so that the electorate is busy talking about 1:55:55.680 --> 1:55:58.200 these things. Well meanwhile, they're just raking in money, hand 1:55:58.280 --> 1:56:04.120 over fist, um, you know, stealing our oil. So anyway, 1:56:04.280 --> 1:56:06.760 I just that's so important to me to like make 1:56:06.840 --> 1:56:10.840 those connections, um, especially in this state. And it's something 1:56:10.840 --> 1:56:13.600 that a lot of people don't consider and don't think about, 1:56:13.760 --> 1:56:16.080 and it's just really important to me that people understand that. 1:56:16.200 --> 1:56:20.440 So yeah, UM, all right, well, thank you so much, Lucas. 1:56:20.480 --> 1:56:23.960 This has been I'm not gonna say fun, but certainly 1:56:24.120 --> 1:56:26.959 enlightening and I think valuable. A good a good dispatch 1:56:27.080 --> 1:56:30.560 from you know, a fight that we we continue to 1:56:30.560 --> 1:56:33.240 see is important here and that everybody should be paying 1:56:33.240 --> 1:56:36.879 attention to both wherever it happens, including in Los Cruses 1:56:36.960 --> 1:56:41.000 and around the country. Um, because they ain't given up, um, 1:56:41.360 --> 1:56:45.880 and they can't be ignored. Um. Yeah. And that's you've 1:56:45.920 --> 1:56:48.720 mentioned this many times over the years, but like that's 1:56:48.720 --> 1:56:52.240 the kind of thing is like we have to show up. Um. Yeah, 1:56:52.280 --> 1:56:55.280 we can't just let them have these spaces. Um. And 1:56:55.320 --> 1:56:57.840 I think that this this past school board meeting was 1:56:57.840 --> 1:57:01.640 a great example of why. UM. And and I'm I'm 1:57:01.640 --> 1:57:04.000 really counting on a lot of my my, my friends 1:57:04.080 --> 1:57:06.600 and and close you know, the folks that I have 1:57:06.680 --> 1:57:09.640 come to love and support in this community, UM, to 1:57:09.720 --> 1:57:12.320 show up and show out for that, because that's you know, 1:57:12.360 --> 1:57:14.000 we've been there, right we Like I said, you know, 1:57:14.000 --> 1:57:16.400 and if you look up Los Cruises politics over the 1:57:16.480 --> 1:57:18.560 years on the news cycle, like you'll see stories about 1:57:18.560 --> 1:57:22.040 our you know, progressive city council and passing a living 1:57:22.080 --> 1:57:24.760 wage and you know, beanding classic bags. I mean like 1:57:24.800 --> 1:57:26.600 all these like you know, we've we've tried, we've we've 1:57:26.600 --> 1:57:30.240 tried to be that kind of little community and and 1:57:30.240 --> 1:57:32.640 and yet you know, these folks are still there and 1:57:32.640 --> 1:57:34.960 they're still allowed and if we give them the space, 1:57:35.040 --> 1:57:38.840 they will take those spaces over. So yeah, yeah, absolutely, 1:57:39.200 --> 1:57:41.480 So thanks for having me on. Let me talk about this. Yeah, 1:57:41.720 --> 1:57:44.000 it really means a lot. Thank you for stepping up, 1:57:44.040 --> 1:57:46.080 because it is this is the thing that's a giant 1:57:46.120 --> 1:57:49.520 pain in the butt, um, is that everybody's got a 1:57:49.560 --> 1:57:52.120 lot going on. Life is complicated. There's all sorts of 1:57:52.120 --> 1:57:54.760 shipped to do in the old world. UM. But every 1:57:54.800 --> 1:57:59.800 time these fascists and their their affiliates decide they're going 1:57:59.880 --> 1:58:02.640 to try to take over something. You know, as busy 1:58:02.640 --> 1:58:04.760 as people are, as exhausting as it is, you do 1:58:04.880 --> 1:58:06.760 have to like they can't just be able to have 1:58:06.840 --> 1:58:08.880 to do it. Like That's how they win, is they 1:58:08.920 --> 1:58:12.080 have they have unlimited energy for this ship and um, 1:58:12.120 --> 1:58:14.440 if they're not like the thing that causes them to 1:58:14.480 --> 1:58:20.320 lose energy is actually um being outnumbered and shown to 1:58:20.400 --> 1:58:25.360 be like like like being kind of pushed out by communities. Um, 1:58:25.520 --> 1:58:28.160 you can do it. It takes it, but it requires 1:58:28.160 --> 1:58:32.880 people showing up. Yes, that's exactly right. So UM, I 1:58:32.920 --> 1:58:36.360 appreciate the signal boost means a lot to me. Uh 1:58:36.480 --> 1:58:40.000 and this, are there any local organs that people can support? 1:58:40.680 --> 1:58:43.080 So big shout out to a group called Cafe here 1:58:43.080 --> 1:58:46.080 in Las Cruces that works on all kinds of border 1:58:46.120 --> 1:58:51.040 issues immigrant rights but also like workers rights and um immigrants, 1:58:51.360 --> 1:58:54.960 like student rights, migrant student rights. Um, they've been very 1:58:55.000 --> 1:58:58.640 active in this for a long time. UM. And so yeah, 1:58:58.680 --> 1:59:02.480 I definitely shout out Cafe uh here in here in 1:59:02.560 --> 1:59:04.320 I mean all of New Mexico, but specifically it's set 1:59:04.360 --> 1:59:05.680 in New Mexico. They're doing a lot of work. And 1:59:05.680 --> 1:59:09.440 then um, uh Dreams in Action, which is part of 1:59:09.480 --> 1:59:13.000 a national network for dreamers. But again here in New 1:59:13.000 --> 1:59:16.120 Mexico have done a lot of good work. Okay, yeah, 1:59:16.120 --> 1:59:18.840 thank you very much, Lucas. All right, um, and that 1:59:19.000 --> 1:59:21.040 is going to do it for us here. It could 1:59:21.120 --> 1:59:26.560 happen here. Um, until next time, go, uh, I don't know, 1:59:28.520 --> 1:59:31.920 hang out at a school board meeting. Go take up 1:59:31.920 --> 1:59:34.600 space from fascists. Yeah, go take up space from fascists 1:59:34.640 --> 1:59:51.680 in general. Welcome back to it could happen here. The 1:59:51.720 --> 1:59:55.560 podcast about you know, the problems and stuff that are 1:59:55.600 --> 1:59:58.400 happening and how to maybe make them better and speaking 1:59:58.440 --> 2:00:00.320 of the problems that are happening and how to make 2:00:00.400 --> 2:00:07.720 him better Garrison Davis, Hi, Hello, that's so that's a 2:00:07.800 --> 2:00:10.720 weird segue. I wanted to introduce this video telling you 2:00:10.720 --> 2:00:12.560 guys that I just watched a movie that you should 2:00:12.560 --> 2:00:15.360 watch because it's pretty rad and it's ties into all 2:00:15.400 --> 2:00:18.080 the things we talk about. It's all the Pizza Gate massacre. 2:00:18.520 --> 2:00:22.360 And I didn't know it is a micro budget under 2:00:22.400 --> 2:00:25.560 a hundred thousand dollars film. It looks great. They did 2:00:25.640 --> 2:00:28.240 a really good job with the budget they had. About 2:00:28.600 --> 2:00:33.200 um an Alex Jones employee type person and a mass 2:00:33.240 --> 2:00:36.840 shooter who go looking for UH to try to solve 2:00:36.880 --> 2:00:40.280 the Pizza Gate things. Oh boy, it is a an 2:00:40.320 --> 2:00:46.400 actually very nuanced and I think deeply knowledgeable commentary on 2:00:46.480 --> 2:00:52.040 specifically like the Texan conspiracy scene. Like it's a like film. 2:00:52.080 --> 2:00:54.560 They're Alex Jones character who's played by a woman in this. 2:00:54.640 --> 2:00:57.400 They film in the original studio that he recorded in 2:00:57.440 --> 2:01:01.440 back in then. Like the filmmaker who did this gets 2:01:02.040 --> 2:01:04.160 like the culture in the area and kind of the 2:01:04.200 --> 2:01:07.160 relationship between the people who get radicalized and do ship 2:01:07.320 --> 2:01:09.080 and the people who just profit from it. It's a 2:01:09.240 --> 2:01:12.400 very good Um it's it is, by the way, a 2:01:12.480 --> 2:01:15.560 grindhouse horror movie. Like whatever you're expecting, It's not that 2:01:15.760 --> 2:01:20.120 it is, like it is an incredibly gory grindhouse movie. Um, 2:01:20.160 --> 2:01:22.880 but it's it's pretty it's pretty fun. What does that 2:01:22.960 --> 2:01:25.640 have to do with? Nothing at all? But it has 2:01:25.640 --> 2:01:27.440 a lot to do with it could happen here, because 2:01:29.000 --> 2:01:33.440 all right, well we'll watch it anyway. Um, this is 2:01:33.440 --> 2:01:35.280 that could happen here? A show about how things are 2:01:35.320 --> 2:01:37.680 kind of falling apart and how we can then maybe 2:01:37.680 --> 2:01:43.000 slow that down or prepare for an uncertain future. UM 2:01:43.200 --> 2:01:46.320 episode about cops, right, I mean, I mean we are 2:01:46.480 --> 2:01:50.720 we are planning an episode in Washington State patrol. Um. 2:01:50.800 --> 2:01:53.360 But no, this is episode is a different a different 2:01:53.440 --> 2:01:58.400 kind of cop about just as useful. Um. So in 2:01:58.240 --> 2:02:01.440 the first half episodes of the The Daily Show or 2:02:01.760 --> 2:02:04.080 season two, which if you haven't listened to you should 2:02:04.080 --> 2:02:06.680 definitely listen to those as they kind of act as 2:02:06.680 --> 2:02:10.840 our show's manifesto of sorts. But nevertheless, the first time 2:02:10.880 --> 2:02:15.200 episodes of the scripted Daily Show put forth like a 2:02:15.240 --> 2:02:18.520 more like realistic, non sugarcoated look at what climate change 2:02:18.760 --> 2:02:21.920 will bring if we continue on our current course. Um. 2:02:22.000 --> 2:02:25.040 But not just looking at the obvious environmental and extreme 2:02:25.080 --> 2:02:29.120 weather effects, but also like the socio political effects. So 2:02:29.560 --> 2:02:31.720 when I was helping Robert out with the research for 2:02:31.800 --> 2:02:35.320 those episodes, some of the best indicators of like the 2:02:35.360 --> 2:02:39.680 mainstream conception of the scientific, environmental and political status of 2:02:39.720 --> 2:02:44.240 climate change was at the United Nations past uh I 2:02:44.240 --> 2:02:48.000 I PCC reports, which is the inter Governmental Panel on 2:02:48.080 --> 2:02:53.320 Climate change and the COP conferences. So during the first 2:02:53.320 --> 2:02:57.400 few weeks of this past November, of November one, the 2:02:57.600 --> 2:03:03.320 twenty six annual COP comp Friends took place in Glasgow. Um. 2:03:03.360 --> 2:03:05.560 And yeah, the name of the conference is kind of 2:03:05.560 --> 2:03:09.880 a decent indication on how useful these things actually are. Um. 2:03:09.920 --> 2:03:13.600 But a COPS stands for a conference of the parties, 2:03:14.160 --> 2:03:16.120 and for almost three decades they've been like the main 2:03:16.280 --> 2:03:22.240 international stage uh for for countries and companies to discuss 2:03:22.320 --> 2:03:26.600 climate related information. And like they're alleged like goals. Um, 2:03:26.840 --> 2:03:30.560 so yeah, they're a good indicator, not onlike sometimes they 2:03:30.560 --> 2:03:34.600 do present actual good science and like decent predictions, but 2:03:34.640 --> 2:03:37.320 they're often just like a good indication of what kind 2:03:37.320 --> 2:03:41.560 of the mainstream people think about what climate change is, 2:03:42.120 --> 2:03:43.960 and you know what the people in power, how they 2:03:43.960 --> 2:03:47.120 are viewing it and how urgent they think it's worth 2:03:47.120 --> 2:03:49.520 addressing versus how much money they want to spend on it. 2:03:50.120 --> 2:03:56.120 So the most notable cop in recent memory was in 2:03:56.520 --> 2:03:59.880 Paris cop one. This is kind of where the pair 2:03:59.880 --> 2:04:03.600 of climate accords were born. Uh. The commitment was to 2:04:03.640 --> 2:04:06.600 aim for one point five degrees of warming, and it 2:04:06.680 --> 2:04:09.360 was signed on by nearly all major countries. Of course, 2:04:09.400 --> 2:04:13.360 the US signed on left then resigned on. But anyway, 2:04:13.680 --> 2:04:17.840 under the Paris Agreement, countries committed to bring forth like 2:04:17.880 --> 2:04:21.720 a national plans uh figuring figuring out how they would 2:04:21.720 --> 2:04:24.960 reduce their missions, but they would do it like by themselves, 2:04:25.000 --> 2:04:27.360 and they would be called n d c s or 2:04:27.480 --> 2:04:31.840 nationally determined contributions. And the idea was for every five 2:04:31.920 --> 2:04:35.760 years countries would gather up and present their current plans 2:04:35.800 --> 2:04:39.520 on the national stage. This was what COPPY was going 2:04:39.560 --> 2:04:41.480 to be. Now it was delayed a year because of 2:04:41.520 --> 2:04:44.400 the pandemic, but COP twenty six was the time for 2:04:44.640 --> 2:04:49.160 countries to present their n d c s on for like, 2:04:49.200 --> 2:04:53.200 their updated versions on their plans to reduce some missions. 2:04:53.280 --> 2:04:57.200 So most of the NDCs got submitted before the conference 2:04:57.240 --> 2:05:00.000 and kind of led the discussion of the conference UH 2:05:00.200 --> 2:05:04.600 by like mid October. UH, I think about uh of 2:05:04.640 --> 2:05:08.800 the countries or states that signed onto the Paris Agreement 2:05:09.120 --> 2:05:12.720 submitted their submitted their version of the NDCs and and 2:05:12.720 --> 2:05:15.200 and those countries about a hundred and forty of them 2:05:15.360 --> 2:05:20.080 are responsible for the majority of global emissions. So that 2:05:20.160 --> 2:05:22.960 that that was what kind of led up to two 2:05:23.280 --> 2:05:28.520 copy from happening UM and the the overarching aim of 2:05:28.640 --> 2:05:33.880 the conference according to President Um, when I try to 2:05:33.920 --> 2:05:39.640 pronounce this name, um outlock sharma Um. He said that 2:05:39.680 --> 2:05:41.960 the the the idea for the conference was to like 2:05:42.200 --> 2:05:48.200 keep alive the Paris Agreements target to keep global temperatures 2:05:48.200 --> 2:05:53.720 from rising above one point five degrees celsius above pre 2:05:53.800 --> 2:05:56.840 industrial levels. So that was that was like the goal 2:05:57.040 --> 2:05:59.400 of the conference going into it was to kind of 2:05:59.480 --> 2:06:01.920 keep the idea of the Paris Climate Accords of still 2:06:01.960 --> 2:06:05.920 being achievable. UM. And that's and that's not what happened 2:06:05.960 --> 2:06:08.960 at the top twenties. So um, now it's it's it's 2:06:09.000 --> 2:06:12.440 important to kind of point out that the commitments laid 2:06:12.440 --> 2:06:16.360 out in the Paris Accords don't come close to limiting 2:06:16.480 --> 2:06:18.680 global warming to one point five degrees, as it is 2:06:18.680 --> 2:06:22.200 said in the accords, like they they acknowledge that, um, 2:06:22.200 --> 2:06:24.760 which is what the kind of NDCs are for. But 2:06:24.840 --> 2:06:27.200 even still those are just non those are those are 2:06:27.240 --> 2:06:31.160 just non binding agreements. But anyway, so the cord the 2:06:31.200 --> 2:06:34.200 accords and the restrictions and goals and well there's no 2:06:34.240 --> 2:06:36.960 restrictions as just goals. The goals and them don't don't 2:06:36.960 --> 2:06:39.480 come close to limiting to one point five degrees. And 2:06:39.560 --> 2:06:42.120 we have already most likely shot way past the point 2:06:42.120 --> 2:06:45.560 of that being in any way achievable. Um. But you know, 2:06:45.600 --> 2:06:48.240 we can still limit things from being megabad like four 2:06:48.280 --> 2:06:52.200 degrees but we are we are already on a certain path. 2:06:52.800 --> 2:06:57.160 So in in asking nations to set tougher targets by 2:06:57.680 --> 2:07:01.280 next year for cutting climate warming emissions, the new agreement 2:07:01.480 --> 2:07:05.280 at Glasgow acknowledge that the commitments that were in place 2:07:05.360 --> 2:07:10.080 are inadequate, and if rigorously followed, the the new national 2:07:10.120 --> 2:07:13.680 pledges so include the stuff including the Paris Accords and 2:07:13.720 --> 2:07:17.040 the new Glasgow packed um and all of the individual 2:07:17.200 --> 2:07:20.120 like uh N d C s. If all of those 2:07:20.160 --> 2:07:23.440 are followed, the world is now on track for a 2:07:23.640 --> 2:07:26.960 two point one to two point four degrees celsius of 2:07:27.000 --> 2:07:29.040 warming by the end of the century. And that is 2:07:29.080 --> 2:07:32.600 the lower estimate, as we'll see later on. Higher estimates 2:07:32.600 --> 2:07:36.360 were also um um shown at at the at the 2:07:36.400 --> 2:07:39.720 Glasgow conference, So we have the the idea was to 2:07:39.840 --> 2:07:42.760 hopefully keep it to one point five, and already we're 2:07:42.920 --> 2:07:45.520 pushing that back by almost a whole a whole degree 2:07:45.520 --> 2:07:48.800 if we're going to like two point four um so 2:07:48.880 --> 2:07:52.000 that that's that's like the main one of the main 2:07:52.040 --> 2:07:55.440 impacts there is like just totally kissing one point five goodbye, 2:07:55.480 --> 2:07:58.480 Like no what, no one even is going to view 2:07:58.560 --> 2:08:05.120 that as a possibility at this point. Huh. So I 2:08:05.480 --> 2:08:08.000 don't know how many people were still looking at that 2:08:08.120 --> 2:08:10.839 as really a goal. Apparently some people of the planners 2:08:10.880 --> 2:08:15.280 of copy apparently were. Um. But I mean, I know 2:08:15.400 --> 2:08:17.800 for us, we've we've been aware of that, and I'm 2:08:17.840 --> 2:08:21.600 not sure how, you know, really what mainstream liberals were 2:08:21.600 --> 2:08:25.760 thinking before this, but hopefully at the very least, maybe 2:08:25.840 --> 2:08:28.800 Cop twenty six made them realize that maybe it's there's 2:08:28.840 --> 2:08:31.680 a there's kind of it's it's maybe maybe worse than 2:08:31.760 --> 2:08:35.480 what you were thinking. Um. But so there are other 2:08:35.520 --> 2:08:38.520 things did happen at at Glasgow that are that are 2:08:38.560 --> 2:08:43.000 worth looking into. Um. So the main quote unquote achievements 2:08:43.280 --> 2:08:47.760 of the Glasgow Deal besides like revisiting the emissions cutting 2:08:47.760 --> 2:08:50.160 plants to try to keep stuff down, which of course 2:08:50.280 --> 2:08:54.200 we're you know, not not not met in shot way past. Um, 2:08:54.240 --> 2:08:57.400 But there we also had the first ever inclusion of 2:08:57.480 --> 2:09:02.200 a commitment to limit coal use. Now, the way phrasing 2:09:02.280 --> 2:09:04.520 is gonna work here, it's gonna be really interesting because 2:09:04.560 --> 2:09:07.000 the reason why this deal got passed is because some 2:09:07.120 --> 2:09:11.680 very specific shifts in their phrasing around coal use. Um. 2:09:11.720 --> 2:09:14.120 The other thing that caught that Cut twenty six tried 2:09:14.200 --> 2:09:18.919 to do was increase financial help for so called developing 2:09:18.960 --> 2:09:23.680 countries and provide funds and assistance for like climate disasters. 2:09:23.720 --> 2:09:26.880 So like when when like extreme weather events happen, have 2:09:26.960 --> 2:09:30.440 a set of funds UH set aside to help countries 2:09:30.720 --> 2:09:33.520 in these disasters. Now those are that that is a 2:09:33.560 --> 2:09:36.720 good idea, but as we'll see later, the way copy 2:09:36.960 --> 2:09:39.640 actually did it is not actually doing it. It's like 2:09:39.680 --> 2:09:42.520 they're they're they're pushing there, they're postponing this kind of goal, 2:09:42.880 --> 2:09:47.240 but they're just making it a prospect. But back to coal. 2:09:47.440 --> 2:09:50.440 So the Glasgow Climate Pact was the first ever climate 2:09:50.480 --> 2:09:53.960 deal to explicitly planned to reduce coal, which was a 2:09:54.360 --> 2:09:58.000 one one of the worst, like fossil fuels for four 2:09:58.120 --> 2:10:02.040 greenhouse gasses UM and and cole really can be phased out. 2:10:02.600 --> 2:10:06.240 Coal can be phased out by um electric power really easily. 2:10:06.280 --> 2:10:10.120 It's it's it is the easiest one. UM it's it's 2:10:10.160 --> 2:10:12.120 it's way easier to phase out cold than it is 2:10:12.760 --> 2:10:17.560 uh natural gas or other um or sorry, let's see 2:10:18.520 --> 2:10:21.640 the the the other main one. There's three there's a coal, 2:10:21.840 --> 2:10:28.520 natural gas, what's what's the last one? Regular gas? I 2:10:28.520 --> 2:10:32.240 guess so yeah, yeah, petroleum based stuff. Um yeah, But 2:10:32.280 --> 2:10:35.120 so the coals because coal is you mostly used for 2:10:35.200 --> 2:10:39.080 heat um. Electrically generated heat is way is way easier 2:10:39.360 --> 2:10:42.640 than all than those other two. So coal coal really 2:10:42.640 --> 2:10:45.480 should be phased out as soon as possible UM. But 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:48.560 the commitments to phase out coal that was introduced in 2:10:48.560 --> 2:10:53.680 earlier negotiations UM led to some fighting, specifically among India 2:10:53.720 --> 2:10:57.400 and China who were in in strong opposition to the 2:10:57.480 --> 2:11:03.919 phrasing and the actual strengths of of the deal UM. 2:11:03.960 --> 2:11:06.600 And a lot of this is like the argument that like, 2:11:07.320 --> 2:11:10.040 if these countries are still developing, it's not fair to 2:11:10.120 --> 2:11:14.040 them to remove this resource when other developed nations had it, 2:11:14.160 --> 2:11:15.600 so that that that's that's the thing. We see that 2:11:15.680 --> 2:11:18.480 argument a lot around, like climate change stuff is like, oh, 2:11:18.600 --> 2:11:21.480 you you're just gonna stop other countries from developing because 2:11:21.840 --> 2:11:24.360 you you you got to get to this certain point 2:11:24.520 --> 2:11:29.000 of being a successful, like wealthy nation um and like 2:11:29.040 --> 2:11:32.400 you know with all this like industrial development on the 2:11:32.440 --> 2:11:35.480 back of fossil fuels and stuff. But then now you're 2:11:35.480 --> 2:11:37.760 going to remove that opportunity for other countries. Now there 2:11:37.840 --> 2:11:40.360 is there is UM a lot of stuff around like 2:11:40.480 --> 2:11:44.480 the growth frameworks that address this issue and specifically try 2:11:44.560 --> 2:11:48.200 to try to get um fossil fuel savings like a 2:11:48.240 --> 2:11:52.160 decrease in emissions and be able to use some of 2:11:52.200 --> 2:11:55.400 those gains to assist countries in getting stuff set up 2:11:55.440 --> 2:11:58.040 to a decent standard of living. UM. But you know 2:11:58.160 --> 2:12:00.400 that is going to be addressed on a whole another 2:12:00.520 --> 2:12:03.880 scale around like capitalism and and how countries intervened in 2:12:03.920 --> 2:12:07.520 other countries. That that's part of a bigger political question. 2:12:07.600 --> 2:12:10.000 But anyway, UM, Indian China did not like that, did 2:12:10.000 --> 2:12:12.480 not like the coal deal. UM. So in the end, 2:12:12.600 --> 2:12:17.320 the countries did agree to phase down coal rather than 2:12:17.400 --> 2:12:20.400 phase out coal. So that that that is the phrase 2:12:20.480 --> 2:12:25.840 that they ended up using is phase down. UM. The 2:12:25.880 --> 2:12:29.400 people weren't super happy about this. Uh. The Cup six 2:12:29.440 --> 2:12:33.400 president um Alec Sharma said that he was deeply sorry 2:12:33.840 --> 2:12:37.080 for how these events unfolded. And like, focus on coal 2:12:37.160 --> 2:12:40.080 is good, it's because it's responsible for about of annual 2:12:40.200 --> 2:12:43.880 CEO two emissions. But also like just focusing on coal 2:12:44.320 --> 2:12:48.480 leaves of really big lack of discussion on oil and gas, 2:12:48.520 --> 2:12:51.280 like there's like those are also like very bad and 2:12:51.680 --> 2:12:53.760 arguably we should be focusing on those a lot, Like 2:12:54.000 --> 2:12:56.480 those are those are the main ones we should get 2:12:56.480 --> 2:12:57.800 we should get rid of coal. Yes, but if we 2:12:57.880 --> 2:13:00.560 just focus on that, then they're so a lot of 2:13:00.600 --> 2:13:04.240 other stuff going on. So that is that is a 2:13:04.240 --> 2:13:09.360 lot of coal talk. Uh you know who also uses coal? 2:13:11.840 --> 2:13:17.280 Our sponsors, Yeah, we're entirely sponsored by Joe Manchin. Um, 2:13:17.720 --> 2:13:20.680 big friend of the pod. Thank you, thank you for 2:13:20.720 --> 2:13:25.520 always having our back, Joe. Anyway, here's the ads and 2:13:25.680 --> 2:13:29.880 we are back talking about copy and there is there 2:13:29.960 --> 2:13:33.240 is a decent there's stuff. Stuff did happen. So and 2:13:33.240 --> 2:13:34.800 I know it is going to be more of a 2:13:35.160 --> 2:13:38.000 sign C in numbers episode, but it is worth actually 2:13:38.280 --> 2:13:42.200 figuring out what what happened there because everyone just kind 2:13:42.200 --> 2:13:45.080 of had the perception like, oh, copy was a failure, 2:13:45.080 --> 2:13:47.400 because yeah it was, um, but it's it's it is 2:13:47.440 --> 2:13:50.280 good to know what actually is going on at things 2:13:50.320 --> 2:13:52.880 like this because if we're going to get some kind 2:13:52.920 --> 2:13:56.000 of you know, liberal change, this is where it's going 2:13:56.040 --> 2:13:58.280 to happen. So it is good to keep an eye 2:13:58.280 --> 2:14:01.720 on what these types of people are thinking. So we 2:14:01.760 --> 2:14:04.880 we left off on talking about how their plans to 2:14:04.920 --> 2:14:07.600 phase down coal, and there was like a general lack 2:14:07.640 --> 2:14:10.400 of focus on oil and gas and it is interesting, 2:14:10.640 --> 2:14:17.040 um if you so there was uh a group of 2:14:17.280 --> 2:14:21.120 activists led by this uh I think. I think it's 2:14:21.120 --> 2:14:26.120 like an NGO called Global Witness. UM assessed the participant 2:14:26.200 --> 2:14:28.880 list published by the u N at the start of 2:14:28.920 --> 2:14:31.920 the meeting, and they found that there was five hundred 2:14:31.920 --> 2:14:35.160 and three people with links to fossil fuel interests who 2:14:35.240 --> 2:14:40.000 were like accredited members of the Climates Summit and so, 2:14:40.360 --> 2:14:43.560 and they were like delicates. So cop twenty six delegates 2:14:43.560 --> 2:14:47.840 associated with fossil fuels outnumbered national delegate numbers for every 2:14:47.840 --> 2:14:52.400 other country. So there were more people representing fossil fuel 2:14:52.400 --> 2:15:00.000 interests than there were representing any individual country. So you're thinking, maybe, 2:15:00.160 --> 2:15:03.440 I wonder why this stuff is not going too good. Oh, 2:15:03.480 --> 2:15:06.720 it's because it's being run mostly by fossil field companies. 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:14.800 That's that's uh huh. That's an interesting, interesting little thing there. Um. Yeah. 2:15:14.880 --> 2:15:17.680 So the the other the other kind of notable thing 2:15:17.840 --> 2:15:22.160 about copy is uh it uh it it led to 2:15:22.200 --> 2:15:26.640 a quote unquote breakthrough in the rules for government led 2:15:26.840 --> 2:15:31.440 carbon markets. So this is the thing that the neoliberals 2:15:31.480 --> 2:15:34.440 are really excited about, is this idea of carbon markets, 2:15:34.440 --> 2:15:37.960 because it's a way to make more money kind of 2:15:37.960 --> 2:15:41.440 off of removing carbon and just to create a lot 2:15:41.480 --> 2:15:46.560 of red tape and bureaucracy around this idea of lowering emissions. So, 2:15:47.000 --> 2:15:48.839 I guess one of the ways to describe carbon markets 2:15:48.840 --> 2:15:52.600 if you're kind of unfamiliar with this idea, is that 2:15:53.280 --> 2:15:58.360 countries that do not meet their emission reduction targets in 2:15:58.400 --> 2:16:05.200 their national climate pledges are like penalized for this. Um so, 2:16:05.200 --> 2:16:08.080 so countries that countries that don't meet their mission targets 2:16:08.240 --> 2:16:12.240 or or want to just pursue like less less expansive 2:16:12.400 --> 2:16:16.240 emission cuts. What what what this deal set out to 2:16:16.320 --> 2:16:20.400 do is that instead of actually lowering emissions, they can 2:16:20.640 --> 2:16:26.440 purchase like emissions reduction tokens and credits from other nations 2:16:26.480 --> 2:16:29.160 that have cut their emissions more than the amount that 2:16:29.240 --> 2:16:32.280 they pledged, uh so, like by you know, moving to 2:16:32.440 --> 2:16:36.400 low carbon energy and various stuff. So the turn of 2:16:36.440 --> 2:16:39.200 phrase that people were using to discuss this to how 2:16:39.280 --> 2:16:42.920 you can like purchase purchase credits to represent emissions that 2:16:42.959 --> 2:16:45.840 you didn't cut but wanted to, is that this can 2:16:45.959 --> 2:16:51.720 potentially unlock trillions of dollars for protecting forests, expanding renewable energy, 2:16:52.040 --> 2:16:56.880 and other projects to combat climate change. Um So, the 2:16:56.920 --> 2:16:59.960 idea here is that the money used to purchase these credits, 2:17:00.040 --> 2:17:03.879 it's going to get put into other things that will 2:17:04.000 --> 2:17:07.959 help fight climate change. But all of this is non 2:17:08.000 --> 2:17:11.879 binding and speculative, and it just furthers this whole carbon 2:17:11.959 --> 2:17:17.240 market concept, which I'm not thrilled about. Um yeah, we should, 2:17:17.240 --> 2:17:19.279 we should do like a full episode of carbon markets. 2:17:19.400 --> 2:17:23.600 But the thing so I I this is you know, 2:17:23.640 --> 2:17:26.560 this is the thing I studied academically in college and 2:17:27.000 --> 2:17:29.440 is incredibly important for everyone to understand that carbon markets 2:17:29.440 --> 2:17:32.240 are fake and do not work at all. Ever one 2:17:32.320 --> 2:17:34.240 has ever gotten one where no one's ever gotten the 2:17:34.320 --> 2:17:35.800 national one to work, and no one's ever gott an 2:17:35.800 --> 2:17:39.800 international one to work. Uh, implementation of carbon markets, Like 2:17:39.920 --> 2:17:42.240 China had a big thing that they're gonna implemented carbon market. 2:17:42.440 --> 2:17:45.240 Uh it was fake. It didn't work. Their carbon emission 2:17:45.280 --> 2:17:49.560 still increase, very very import Like how fuy carbon markets 2:17:49.600 --> 2:17:52.440 can be. So you get carbon credits if you're a 2:17:52.480 --> 2:17:58.160 business like Tesla that makes no emission electronic vehicles, and Tesla, 2:17:58.280 --> 2:18:00.760 for a lot of it's earlier history, made a significant 2:18:00.840 --> 2:18:04.199 chunk of its profits selling carbon credits to polluting industries 2:18:04.520 --> 2:18:07.720 and basically saying you guys, keep polluting. We got your back, 2:18:07.840 --> 2:18:10.600 Like the fact that we're putting electric cars out onto 2:18:10.640 --> 2:18:12.879 the street means you guys can keep admitting at the 2:18:12.879 --> 2:18:16.760 same all like that's that's like literally how how kind 2:18:16.800 --> 2:18:20.840 of the business can work. It's it's not the best 2:18:20.879 --> 2:18:24.480 way to fix the problem. Yeah. So there's a lot 2:18:24.480 --> 2:18:27.400 of a lot of talk was around carbon markets, um, 2:18:27.440 --> 2:18:31.360 because that's of course with the Neil liberal establishment, neo 2:18:31.400 --> 2:18:35.480 liberal englishment is going to focus on because it's still 2:18:35.640 --> 2:18:38.160 is within their kind of worldview. Um, how do we 2:18:38.200 --> 2:18:40.800 monetize the rot? Yeah, how do we how do we 2:18:40.840 --> 2:18:44.560 make money off of the world ending? Um? Which I 2:18:44.560 --> 2:18:46.360 guess we're going to see a lot more of that 2:18:46.800 --> 2:18:49.959 uh in the next in the next few decades. Um. 2:18:50.040 --> 2:18:52.480 The the other the other thing that they decided on is, 2:18:52.640 --> 2:18:55.160 uh next year there's gonna there's gonna be again. So 2:18:55.200 --> 2:18:58.280 there's there's they decided to procrastinate, which is just a 2:18:58.720 --> 2:19:03.080 general theme of cop car offerences we've been with. It's 2:19:03.120 --> 2:19:06.640 what everyone's been doing about plimate change since forever. So Yeah, 2:19:06.680 --> 2:19:10.200 the main thing they do is decide to procrastinate. Um. 2:19:10.320 --> 2:19:13.439 So next year there's gonna be a u N committee 2:19:13.720 --> 2:19:17.880 to report on progress towards delivering one billion dollar per 2:19:18.000 --> 2:19:22.000 year in a promised climate funding. Uh. This was after 2:19:22.200 --> 2:19:25.520 rich nations failed to deliver on the deadline for said 2:19:25.560 --> 2:19:28.959 funds um and then financing is gonna be discussed again 2:19:28.959 --> 2:19:34.160 in two those conferences. Um. But this this deal left 2:19:34.160 --> 2:19:37.080 a lot of more vulnerable nations who were going to 2:19:37.200 --> 2:19:41.800 rely on this promised funding. Uh kind of just they 2:19:41.840 --> 2:19:44.520 just left them without things. So the whole idea was 2:19:44.600 --> 2:19:48.080 that like, yeah, we need this funding to help people 2:19:48.240 --> 2:19:51.440 in these disasters and different losses and damages and to 2:19:51.520 --> 2:19:56.000 help you know, start start making more um, renewable energy 2:19:56.160 --> 2:19:59.720 technology in lieu of doing tons of tons of coal 2:19:59.760 --> 2:20:01.720 mine And that's where this money was going to get 2:20:01.840 --> 2:20:08.080 used for and it's not happening. Um. So this this 2:20:08.160 --> 2:20:12.600 promise was initially made at a u WIN a conference 2:20:12.680 --> 2:20:16.520 on climate change, and we're still we're still pushing it 2:20:16.560 --> 2:20:20.600 back year by year. So this pledge is older than 2:20:20.680 --> 2:20:24.760 I am. Yeah, it sure is. Another pledge meant as 2:20:24.760 --> 2:20:28.200 a nine to provide a hundred billion dollars to emerging 2:20:28.240 --> 2:20:31.680 economies was supposed to be made in that also was 2:20:31.760 --> 2:20:34.039 missed um. And it was it was designed to help 2:20:34.160 --> 2:20:36.560 nations adapt to climate effects and make the transition to 2:20:36.600 --> 2:20:41.320 clean energy UM and UH. The cop Spring six president 2:20:41.400 --> 2:20:44.200 said that around five hundred billion will be mobilized by 2:20:45.640 --> 2:20:51.200 so cool. Thanks for saying those numbers which mean nothing. 2:20:51.840 --> 2:20:54.000 It's fun. It's fun how you can just talk and 2:20:54.040 --> 2:20:57.320 say things and it doesn't actually matter. It's It's one 2:20:57.360 --> 2:20:59.440 of the things that's so frustrating about this is trying 2:20:59.480 --> 2:21:03.320 to get a hand along, like how how a lot 2:21:03.360 --> 2:21:05.520 of these solutions are supposed to work. So, like one 2:21:05.520 --> 2:21:08.120 of the articles, if you're trying to actually if you're 2:21:08.160 --> 2:21:10.160 not just taking our word for it, which you never should, 2:21:10.200 --> 2:21:13.800 and trying to research like carbon credits and carbon markets 2:21:13.840 --> 2:21:16.640 and like how they might work or might help. Like 2:21:16.640 --> 2:21:18.480 one of the articles you're going to come across is 2:21:19.000 --> 2:21:22.160 an article in Nature dot org called making Carbon Markets 2:21:22.200 --> 2:21:24.800 Work for Faster Climate Action. And this is very much 2:21:24.800 --> 2:21:28.000 obviously so it's pretty it's pretty recent, and it's not 2:21:28.080 --> 2:21:30.800 at all a climate denial piece. It's it's just kind 2:21:30.800 --> 2:21:33.800 of laying out a case for how carbon markets could 2:21:33.840 --> 2:21:38.320 be very effective at reducing emissions. But you have to 2:21:38.320 --> 2:21:39.959 grapple the whole time you're looking at this with the 2:21:39.959 --> 2:21:45.640 fact that like they haven't that that global global emissions 2:21:45.680 --> 2:21:47.959 are still shoo and they provide a number of like 2:21:49.200 --> 2:21:51.920 options for how this could work. And it's one of 2:21:51.920 --> 2:21:54.840 those things where I'm not gonna say it's impossible. I'm 2:21:54.840 --> 2:21:56.800 certainly not an expert on this, and you can read 2:21:56.800 --> 2:22:00.080 through the article, um if you want, but it it 2:22:00.080 --> 2:22:03.160 it's it's certainly certainly think the thing you can say 2:22:03.240 --> 2:22:05.760 right now is that carbon markets have not led to 2:22:05.879 --> 2:22:08.360 a global decrease in emissions because we we have not 2:22:08.480 --> 2:22:11.760 had emissions decrease other than that little dip we had 2:22:11.800 --> 2:22:16.920 when a covid uh did it's it's sweet little dance. Yeah, 2:22:16.959 --> 2:22:20.920 that one month where we could actually see the sky again. Yeah, 2:22:20.959 --> 2:22:24.440 that was pretty rad um. But yeah, there's there's I mean, 2:22:24.520 --> 2:22:26.200 you you can check that article out for kind of 2:22:26.240 --> 2:22:29.760 the pro carbon markets case. It all seems i mean, 2:22:29.760 --> 2:22:31.800 one of the things that's frustrating to me about it 2:22:31.840 --> 2:22:36.160 is it all it's all like, yeah, here's how it 2:22:36.280 --> 2:22:39.160 might work if you know, everybody got on board the 2:22:39.160 --> 2:22:42.520 Paris Climate Agreement and also all of this worked ideally, 2:22:43.200 --> 2:22:45.039 But there's there just doesn't seem to be a lot 2:22:45.080 --> 2:22:49.200 of I I just don't see any evidence that like 2:22:49.360 --> 2:22:53.320 they've shown that this is actually likely to be helpful. Um, 2:22:53.360 --> 2:22:55.920 it's more just like yeah, this this could this could 2:22:55.920 --> 2:22:59.840 work if if we do these other things. Um, we 2:23:00.080 --> 2:23:02.040 just frustrating. That's like all all of the kind of 2:23:02.040 --> 2:23:04.200 ship that you get at at at COP twenty six, 2:23:04.200 --> 2:23:06.880 where it's like, yeah, I guess theoretically, if you were 2:23:06.879 --> 2:23:08.600 to do that, or if that were to work the 2:23:08.600 --> 2:23:10.240 way you're saying, or if that were to work with 2:23:10.280 --> 2:23:13.560 the assumption that like all these other factors don't grow 2:23:13.600 --> 2:23:16.520 over this period of time, than than this might help. 2:23:16.640 --> 2:23:21.480 But we also know what's happened with emissions and global 2:23:21.520 --> 2:23:24.840 attempts to reduce climate change. UM. Which is not to 2:23:24.879 --> 2:23:28.680 say that like like emissions in the United States, Like 2:23:28.720 --> 2:23:30.360 there have been there's been a lot that's been done 2:23:30.360 --> 2:23:33.080 to curb emissions from the United States. Now, the thing 2:23:33.160 --> 2:23:35.560 that's often left out of like the discussion of these 2:23:35.560 --> 2:23:38.440 different things and how they impacted our emissions is like, well, 2:23:38.520 --> 2:23:40.800 a lot of those emissions got pushed off to other 2:23:40.879 --> 2:23:43.000 countries that are now making the things that we were 2:23:43.040 --> 2:23:45.720 making for I yes, like that. That's the big thing 2:23:45.720 --> 2:23:48.039 when people argue against the growth and they're like, no, 2:23:48.200 --> 2:23:50.680 you can you can still keep growing your economy while 2:23:51.080 --> 2:23:54.720 lowering emissions, and like, yeah, one country can, but we 2:23:54.800 --> 2:23:57.039 still want the stuff, so we're just moving it to 2:23:57.200 --> 2:24:00.360 other countries to produce, so like we're not at actually 2:24:00.600 --> 2:24:03.080 lowering it on a global level. You can lower you 2:24:03.120 --> 2:24:05.720 can lower it on like an individual country level, but 2:24:05.879 --> 2:24:08.840 not totally globally because we still want to consume the thing. 2:24:09.360 --> 2:24:11.440 This is one of the single most frustrating things about 2:24:11.480 --> 2:24:14.400 talking to people about climate change is that, Okay, you know, 2:24:14.400 --> 2:24:15.680 if you if you talk to the sort of Neiler 2:24:15.720 --> 2:24:18.439 Book Cormon market people, right, if you talk about literally 2:24:18.480 --> 2:24:21.320 anything else, right, the only thing they ever talked about 2:24:21.360 --> 2:24:23.080 is how the entire world is inter connected, how the 2:24:23.200 --> 2:24:25.600 entire economies and connected, how we're more interconnected than ever. 2:24:26.080 --> 2:24:28.480 And then the moment you start talking about climate change, 2:24:29.320 --> 2:24:31.800 they go, oh, well, it's all the individual country, individual country, 2:24:31.800 --> 2:24:33.760 individual country, the economy is not connected at all. It's 2:24:33.760 --> 2:24:36.240 all about the individual policy makers country. It's like, no, 2:24:36.360 --> 2:24:40.160 it's not the it's it's about like all all of 2:24:40.200 --> 2:24:42.160 the like, the the the the the the emissions are 2:24:42.160 --> 2:24:44.960 foreign direct investment driven, right, it's about it's a it's 2:24:44.959 --> 2:24:47.240 about's about what it's about where investment money is going. 2:24:47.760 --> 2:24:51.160 And you cannot and you know this, this is this 2:24:51.240 --> 2:24:52.879 is why cop and someone is like, this is why 2:24:52.920 --> 2:24:54.720 it doesn't work. And even though it's the only frame 2:24:54.840 --> 2:24:56.320 rate that could work, right, you have to have an 2:24:56.360 --> 2:24:58.720 international response, has to be coordinated, it has to be 2:24:59.320 --> 2:25:02.360 working across national lines, because again that's how the economist 2:25:02.360 --> 2:25:06.760 dim works. But it doesn't because a state's individual states 2:25:07.000 --> 2:25:09.200 can't and will not ever solve this and then be 2:25:10.320 --> 2:25:12.879 copies like Okay, so here's here's our international framework. But 2:25:12.920 --> 2:25:14.880 also we're just going to have you know, the actual 2:25:14.920 --> 2:25:17.720 the the the actual international framework is going to be 2:25:17.800 --> 2:25:20.920 just essentially hammered up by bunch of fossil fuel companies 2:25:21.879 --> 2:25:24.120 and so it's just you know, it's it's the worst 2:25:24.160 --> 2:25:27.440 of both worlds. I mean, it's and it you can 2:25:27.440 --> 2:25:31.039 see there's there's some kind of acknowledgement at the fact 2:25:31.080 --> 2:25:33.520 that this is an international problem in in like the 2:25:33.560 --> 2:25:36.760 basic idea of of carbon markets, which includes the idea 2:25:36.800 --> 2:25:41.240 that like, um, you can companies that that emit emit 2:25:41.320 --> 2:25:43.840 lesson don't use up their carbon budget can like sell 2:25:43.920 --> 2:25:46.680 carbon credits, and you can do this across international lines. 2:25:46.720 --> 2:25:49.600 And like if we hold if we hold companies to 2:25:49.720 --> 2:25:53.520 different like emission standards internationally based on things like the 2:25:53.520 --> 2:25:56.680 Paris Climate Agreement, then that will cause the carbon credit 2:25:56.760 --> 2:26:00.280 system to work better. Um, there's that acknowledgement that it 2:26:00.360 --> 2:26:03.560 is an international problem. But again I just don't I 2:26:03.600 --> 2:26:07.200 don't see I don't see evidence that it's working, and 2:26:07.240 --> 2:26:10.800 they like none of the evidence that I've read makes 2:26:10.840 --> 2:26:13.480 it seem like there's a very good case that this 2:26:13.560 --> 2:26:15.080 is going to at the very least, that this is 2:26:15.120 --> 2:26:17.160 going to provide the kind of emissions productions that are 2:26:17.200 --> 2:26:22.320 necessary to forestall the worst case scenarios that are coming. Um. 2:26:22.360 --> 2:26:25.199 And if we're gonna be again to be completely intellectually 2:26:25.240 --> 2:26:29.040 honest here, we can talk about D growth all day long. UM. 2:26:29.080 --> 2:26:31.360 I have a similar problem with that that I do 2:26:31.480 --> 2:26:35.320 to a lot of these the different kind of targets 2:26:35.400 --> 2:26:38.800 that COP twenty six introduced, stuff like carbon markets, where 2:26:38.800 --> 2:26:44.920 it's like, I don't I don't see that solving the 2:26:44.959 --> 2:26:47.920 problem either. It's like a theoretical it's it's yeah, if 2:26:47.959 --> 2:26:51.000 we were to get people to if if we've gotten 2:26:51.040 --> 2:26:53.840 people on board with D growth, then you've already fundamentally 2:26:53.879 --> 2:26:57.320 shifted the very nature of global society. UM. And also 2:26:57.760 --> 2:27:00.360 the way in which Americans and people in other Western 2:27:00.440 --> 2:27:05.720 nations like conceived of economics at a fundamental level. Um. 2:27:06.000 --> 2:27:08.120 And so it's it's one thing to say that, like, yeah, 2:27:08.160 --> 2:27:12.280 if people accepted that and and got on board with 2:27:12.760 --> 2:27:15.760 a lifestyle that is not based on this this kind 2:27:15.760 --> 2:27:19.320 of capitalist notion of endless growth, of ever increasing extraction 2:27:19.360 --> 2:27:22.640 from the world in order to create value, um, then 2:27:22.680 --> 2:27:26.000 we could we could actually stop emitting at the kind 2:27:26.040 --> 2:27:29.359 of levels that are going to lead to these horrible consequences. Um. 2:27:29.520 --> 2:27:33.560 The question is like, I don't see, I don't see 2:27:33.640 --> 2:27:35.720 you you can. I think you can argue that de 2:27:35.879 --> 2:27:40.360 growth is more realistic in that Yes, that would absolutely work, 2:27:40.560 --> 2:27:43.200 as opposed to carbon credits and other things where it's like, 2:27:43.240 --> 2:27:45.280 well theoretically it might work if they do all this 2:27:45.320 --> 2:27:49.480 other stuff. Yeah, it does. It does revolve on the 2:27:49.480 --> 2:27:55.000 cultural notion of America and the West completely changing. Um. 2:27:55.000 --> 2:27:57.320 It's a big it's a big ask, you know. Yeah, 2:27:57.560 --> 2:27:59.400 And I mean like there is there are smaller steps, 2:27:59.440 --> 2:28:02.760 like totally like reorganizing how cities work so we do 2:28:02.840 --> 2:28:05.840 not use cars, uh, like like like re redoing a 2:28:05.879 --> 2:28:10.119 public transportation um like sector uh in you know, um, 2:28:10.160 --> 2:28:13.400 making making like a cellar panels and renewable energy. I 2:28:13.520 --> 2:28:16.120 required part of like city infrastructure right there, there's a 2:28:16.160 --> 2:28:19.080 there's a lot of ways to push us towards that thing, 2:28:19.440 --> 2:28:21.360 but there's not one thing we can do right because 2:28:21.400 --> 2:28:24.600 it is in large parts of cultural change. Stuff stuff 2:28:24.640 --> 2:28:27.280 will help with emissions. Like if we if we redesign 2:28:27.400 --> 2:28:30.920 cities around public transportation and make it so stuff is 2:28:30.959 --> 2:28:32.800 not as as far apart, and yeah, that that's gonna 2:28:32.840 --> 2:28:35.520 help lower emissions. If we if we require all these 2:28:35.520 --> 2:28:38.600 other types of renewable energy projects to be built into 2:28:38.959 --> 2:28:42.440 buildings and added on to our current cities, and yeah, 2:28:42.480 --> 2:28:45.440 that that is going to help lower emissions. But you know, 2:28:45.560 --> 2:28:48.440 there's there's not one one big step that we can 2:28:48.440 --> 2:28:51.080 all do at the same time. And I think that 2:28:51.080 --> 2:28:53.920 that's I don't know. I'm of two minds about it. 2:28:54.000 --> 2:28:57.440 One part of me says that's absolutely the most intelligent 2:28:57.480 --> 2:29:00.560 way to go about it is focusing on things like 2:29:01.200 --> 2:29:04.200 reducing the use of like like like really all ending 2:29:04.280 --> 2:29:08.160 car culture in cities, because it's not even a reduction thing. 2:29:08.200 --> 2:29:11.360 It has to be like that that has to die. Um. 2:29:11.360 --> 2:29:13.760 But we're a lot closer to that than ending the 2:29:13.879 --> 2:29:20.760 idea of like uh, capitalism because they're at number one one, 2:29:20.760 --> 2:29:24.240 because there are capitalists, very capitalist countries that have that 2:29:24.320 --> 2:29:26.920 do not have a car culture that like stopped that 2:29:27.040 --> 2:29:28.959 and that actually like had one at one point and 2:29:28.959 --> 2:29:32.640 then reworked there. So that's that's and that would Yeah, 2:29:32.680 --> 2:29:35.480 that is a significant that's probably go that would probably 2:29:35.560 --> 2:29:38.800 lead to larger emissions reductions than any kind of carbon 2:29:38.879 --> 2:29:43.880 credit system could ever lead to. UM. I also, and 2:29:44.320 --> 2:29:46.800 so yeah, I think that that's on an objective level, Yeah, 2:29:46.800 --> 2:29:49.200 that's it's smart to focus on stuff like that where 2:29:49.600 --> 2:29:53.920 you're all you are arguing for reducing growth, but you're 2:29:53.959 --> 2:29:56.320 also arguing and for like, hey, your life will be 2:29:56.360 --> 2:29:58.440 more pleasant if you live in a city where you 2:29:58.480 --> 2:30:01.520 can walk everywhere. You're not at risk of getting run 2:30:01.560 --> 2:30:04.720 down by you know, two ton trucks anytime you cross 2:30:04.800 --> 2:30:07.360 the street, and like you're not dealing with smog and 2:30:07.440 --> 2:30:10.600 pollution and horrible like hour and a half long communes 2:30:10.680 --> 2:30:15.400 on these crowded nightmare highways. Um. But it's also it's 2:30:15.400 --> 2:30:20.680 still incrementalist. You know, we we are we are talking here, 2:30:20.720 --> 2:30:24.080 we are kind of like walking through here, Um, all 2:30:24.120 --> 2:30:27.560 of the best incremental solutions and and what is the 2:30:27.560 --> 2:30:30.320 most realistic of those. UM, And I think that's fine. 2:30:30.360 --> 2:30:31.840 I think that's kind of where we have to be 2:30:31.840 --> 2:30:35.760 because that is what's most likely to actually happen to 2:30:35.800 --> 2:30:38.480 make the problem better. UM, but it is we have 2:30:38.520 --> 2:30:41.160 to acknowledge it is incremental, like we're not we're not 2:30:41.320 --> 2:30:45.640 solving It would be very arrogant to say, like, here's 2:30:45.640 --> 2:30:48.240 how we solve this problem once and for all, you know, 2:30:48.320 --> 2:30:50.200 I just want to. I think sometimes when you talk 2:30:50.240 --> 2:30:52.320 about stuff like deep growth you can get into this, 2:30:52.640 --> 2:30:54.880 you can kind of it can come across as if 2:30:54.879 --> 2:30:56.959 you're trying to like simplify, like and if we do this, 2:30:57.240 --> 2:30:59.280 like it will be perfectly like now, this would be 2:30:59.320 --> 2:31:02.480 like the hardest. No, that's that's like saying we have 2:31:02.520 --> 2:31:04.960 to confix it by all doing a revolution. It's like 2:31:05.080 --> 2:31:08.680 that's it's it's not okay, okay, cool, Yeah, I mean, 2:31:09.959 --> 2:31:12.760 but anyway, we have to do some ADS and then 2:31:12.760 --> 2:31:15.080 we'll be back to finish up kind of their closing 2:31:15.120 --> 2:31:17.560 expectations on COP twenty six and the other kind of 2:31:17.560 --> 2:31:22.280 things happening in the periphery. Um, here's ads. Okay, we 2:31:22.400 --> 2:31:24.920 are back and we're talking about kind of what happened 2:31:24.920 --> 2:31:27.480 towards the end of copy. So we already kind of 2:31:27.520 --> 2:31:29.840 discussed how the deal was made, what was in the deal, 2:31:29.879 --> 2:31:32.760 what things were talked about. Um now we're kind of 2:31:32.840 --> 2:31:34.680 going to talk about, you know, the other kind of 2:31:34.680 --> 2:31:39.080 closing thoughts around it. Um in in in. In the 2:31:39.120 --> 2:31:41.920 lead up to to cap to plenty six, the United 2:31:41.920 --> 2:31:46.879 States Special Presidential Climate Envoy John Kerry, who's like he's 2:31:46.879 --> 2:31:49.240 supposed to be like our climate guy. Um he he 2:31:49.320 --> 2:31:51.600 also said the goal this something it was to it 2:31:51.760 --> 2:31:53.920 was to you know, hope that we can limit stuff 2:31:53.959 --> 2:31:56.360 to one point five degrees and you know, he he 2:31:56.480 --> 2:31:58.560 called this the last best hope for the world to 2:31:58.600 --> 2:32:01.880 get its act together. But by the time Capturist six 2:32:01.959 --> 2:32:04.840 came to the end, his language and attitude had kind 2:32:04.840 --> 2:32:08.120 of changed. Um after after two weeks of debate and negotiation, 2:32:08.560 --> 2:32:11.320 his his final remarks reflected the kind of the points 2:32:11.360 --> 2:32:15.400 we've been talking about, how um and and and said, like, uh, 2:32:15.760 --> 2:32:18.800 like the government energy policy is currently in place around 2:32:18.800 --> 2:32:22.000 the world are projected to result in about two point 2:32:22.080 --> 2:32:26.360 seven degrees uh celsius of warming above pre industrial levels, 2:32:26.720 --> 2:32:29.959 and government pledges to cut climate emissions would limit warming 2:32:29.959 --> 2:32:33.360 to two point four uh if they are met. So 2:32:33.879 --> 2:32:36.879 that's the the Again, we're just launching way past this 2:32:37.000 --> 2:32:40.360 like mythical fantasy of of one point five degrees. And 2:32:40.400 --> 2:32:43.600 the other scary things is that we're getting a lot, 2:32:43.640 --> 2:32:47.640 a lot closer to large scale feedback loops. Uh. Feedback 2:32:47.680 --> 2:32:49.920 loops are things like once we have reached a certain 2:32:49.920 --> 2:32:53.480 degree of warming, environmental effects will be triggered that will 2:32:53.640 --> 2:32:57.600 cascade and produce like exponential growth in warming. This is 2:32:57.640 --> 2:33:00.959 like a this it's not purely theory article, but it 2:33:01.080 --> 2:33:03.880 is mostly stuff that we still probably can prevent, and 2:33:03.920 --> 2:33:05.840 we really need to get on it like a S 2:33:05.920 --> 2:33:08.280 A P. Because once these things start happening, they are 2:33:08.360 --> 2:33:10.959 very hard to reverse. One of the biggest ones that 2:33:11.000 --> 2:33:14.240 are that are already being affected is photosynthesis by plants 2:33:14.240 --> 2:33:17.800 on land and how that is decreasing its ability to 2:33:17.879 --> 2:33:22.199 suck up carbon um. About of our annual carbon emissions 2:33:22.320 --> 2:33:26.360 are removed by the air by photosynthesis um and the 2:33:26.680 --> 2:33:29.400 rest of which are dissolved in the ocean, causing ocean 2:33:29.520 --> 2:33:32.560 acidification or that you just hang around in the atmosphere, 2:33:32.560 --> 2:33:36.959 which causes you know, a bigger thermal blanket. So uh, 2:33:37.000 --> 2:33:40.200 photosynthesis has like a thermal maximum beyond which carbon can 2:33:40.240 --> 2:33:43.800 only be taken so much of it in and then 2:33:43.840 --> 2:33:46.720 the process which by plants give off carbon and water 2:33:46.840 --> 2:33:50.959 actually increases. And we are already at that point in 2:33:51.000 --> 2:33:53.680 a in a lot of places, and we are we 2:33:53.680 --> 2:33:56.240 are at that we we achieve the warming required to 2:33:56.320 --> 2:33:59.560 get to that point a few times throughout the past decade. 2:34:00.080 --> 2:34:03.040 So land based carbon uptake is projected to decline by 2:34:03.080 --> 2:34:07.480 nearly fift percent as early as and and these effects 2:34:07.480 --> 2:34:09.720 have not been included in any of the you know, 2:34:09.840 --> 2:34:15.120 published pathways leading to lower like lower degrees of warming. Um. 2:34:15.160 --> 2:34:17.600 And again this isn't this isn't just as speculative. Like 2:34:17.840 --> 2:34:20.120 the biggest example of this that we can like point 2:34:20.160 --> 2:34:22.640 to is like the Amazon rainforest. How that is now 2:34:22.720 --> 2:34:26.160 a net emitter because it is no longer sucking up 2:34:26.280 --> 2:34:29.000 enough carbon to offset the amount of carbon and actually 2:34:29.040 --> 2:34:33.160 shoots out. So we need to stop deforestation and keep 2:34:33.200 --> 2:34:37.520 planting more trees essentially because that that sucks. And also 2:34:37.600 --> 2:34:40.279 just as a general kind of indicator of the cascading 2:34:40.280 --> 2:34:43.760 effects that are happening, and we are we're still on 2:34:43.800 --> 2:34:46.039 the path for kind of large, large scale disasters in 2:34:46.080 --> 2:34:50.160 a lot of places around the world. Um, the it's 2:34:50.480 --> 2:34:55.000 around nine of the Earth's land area is in pretty 2:34:55.040 --> 2:34:58.840 pretty dire risk on our current emission pathway of the 2:34:58.840 --> 2:35:03.240 Marshall Islands. And I'll all these UM Vietnam, Southeast Asia, 2:35:03.280 --> 2:35:07.680 Middle East, parts of North Africa, and Central America. UM. Overall, 2:35:07.720 --> 2:35:11.040 around one third of the land humans occupied are predicted 2:35:11.120 --> 2:35:13.920 to either drowned by by sea level rise or became 2:35:14.120 --> 2:35:15.880 or become too hot for human life just by the 2:35:15.959 --> 2:35:18.600 end of this century alone. So that that will cause 2:35:18.680 --> 2:35:21.959 you know, my migration, panics and wars and all, like 2:35:22.000 --> 2:35:24.200 a whole bunch of bad things that we can we 2:35:24.240 --> 2:35:26.680 can limit that, Like, that is something that we need 2:35:26.720 --> 2:35:29.680 to limit now, and if we don't, it's still it's 2:35:29.720 --> 2:35:32.280 still happening. So these are the other kind of things 2:35:32.320 --> 2:35:36.119 talked about at the end. UM. So that was kind 2:35:36.160 --> 2:35:39.640 of copy as a whole. UM. The one last thing 2:35:39.720 --> 2:35:42.920 I want to mention is just how evil Facebook is. UM. 2:35:43.000 --> 2:35:48.440 So kind of kind of an aside, but UM, Facebook 2:35:48.560 --> 2:35:53.880 vice president of Global Affairs UH talked um and about 2:35:54.680 --> 2:35:58.840 Facebook's efforts to combat climate misinformation. UM as the Glasgow 2:35:58.879 --> 2:36:02.800 somewhat began. But as this was happening, conservative media, let's 2:36:02.800 --> 2:36:05.959 like Newsmax or we're running ads on Facebook calling a 2:36:06.000 --> 2:36:09.560 global warming a hoax, gaining hundreds of thousands of views, 2:36:09.879 --> 2:36:12.360 stuff like you know, Canadas WinCE and Daily Wire, we're 2:36:12.440 --> 2:36:16.000 spreading climate misinformation. But and you know, as as Facebook 2:36:16.080 --> 2:36:19.560 is bragging about its ability to to combat misinformation around 2:36:19.560 --> 2:36:23.520 climate change. Um. The UK based think tank Influence Map, 2:36:23.680 --> 2:36:27.720 which identified misleading Facebook ads UH from several media outlets 2:36:27.920 --> 2:36:32.600 UM around Copy also found that fossil field companies and 2:36:32.800 --> 2:36:36.280 lobbying groups spent half a million dollars on political and 2:36:36.320 --> 2:36:40.560 social issue Facebook ads during the summit, resulting in over 2:36:40.680 --> 2:36:45.680 twenty two million impressions, including content that promoted environmental effects 2:36:45.760 --> 2:36:48.960 under what we would call like green washing. Stuff like 2:36:49.080 --> 2:36:52.840 you know, the American Petroleum Institute putting up putting an 2:36:52.840 --> 2:36:55.560 ad out over like a natural landscape as it liked 2:36:55.560 --> 2:36:59.280 touts its efforts to tackle climate change. UM, so all 2:36:59.360 --> 2:37:01.960 all of that kind stuff. So I just think it's 2:37:01.959 --> 2:37:05.480 really dumb because Facebook breaks about its ability to combat 2:37:05.760 --> 2:37:10.160 misinformation as its running ads saying climate changes the hoax 2:37:10.320 --> 2:37:14.440 and then doing generally green greenwashing is more common, but 2:37:14.560 --> 2:37:17.720 still trustrating um And and yeah, just as a note, 2:37:17.800 --> 2:37:19.520 like we talked about this in the Facebook it as 2:37:19.520 --> 2:37:21.880 it's a bastards that dropped recently, but like the number 2:37:21.959 --> 2:37:25.000 one spreader right now of climate disinformation on Facebook is 2:37:25.040 --> 2:37:27.600 bright Bart, which a lot of the Facebook papers have 2:37:27.720 --> 2:37:30.760 gone on too. Like the extreme lengths, Facebook executives went 2:37:31.200 --> 2:37:33.640 to keep bright Bart as one of their like trusted 2:37:33.720 --> 2:37:36.160 news partners and continue putting their stuff out to a 2:37:36.240 --> 2:37:38.480 huge audience because it goes very viral. It was good 2:37:38.560 --> 2:37:41.920 for engagement on the platform, and that's the decision. Facebook's like, 2:37:42.000 --> 2:37:44.560 whatever they say, this is like when we when we're 2:37:44.600 --> 2:37:47.280 talking about car carbon credits, when we're talking about like 2:37:47.480 --> 2:37:50.359 the different proposed solutions, I'll do a bit of waffling 2:37:50.360 --> 2:37:52.240 because I don't want to come across as too certain 2:37:52.280 --> 2:37:55.080 about what the right way to go forward is. When 2:37:55.120 --> 2:37:58.640 it comes to how Facebook has handled climate disinformation, it's 2:37:58.760 --> 2:38:01.879 very black and white. They enabled it for direct profit 2:38:02.360 --> 2:38:04.720 and they talked about it, and people within the company 2:38:04.760 --> 2:38:08.360 were like, Hey, we're deliberately enabling climate change misinformation in 2:38:08.480 --> 2:38:11.040 order to make more money. Um, it's a it's a 2:38:11.160 --> 2:38:14.440 it's a very easy case to make. Yeah. So that 2:38:14.560 --> 2:38:18.360 wraps up my uh, my report back on COP twenty six. 2:38:18.760 --> 2:38:20.280 I know a lot of a lot of stuff was 2:38:20.360 --> 2:38:22.520 like there's there's a lot of headlines like before the 2:38:22.600 --> 2:38:24.880 somebody even ended, before the deal was even finalized, I 2:38:25.000 --> 2:38:28.320 was like, is a failure, which is like yes, But 2:38:28.400 --> 2:38:31.279 I think I think it is worth actually really learning 2:38:31.400 --> 2:38:33.440 what happens at these things, because I think we have 2:38:33.560 --> 2:38:36.760 this idea that they're like some like mythic secret gathering 2:38:36.959 --> 2:38:39.120 of people to discuss plans. And it's like no, like 2:38:39.200 --> 2:38:41.920 you can actually like see everything they're talking about, Like 2:38:41.959 --> 2:38:43.560 it's it's all out in the open, like you can 2:38:43.600 --> 2:38:46.280 actually see what what the plans are. It doesn't need 2:38:46.320 --> 2:38:48.920 to be all shrouded in it. It doesn't need be 2:38:49.000 --> 2:38:52.120 like shrouded in mystery. So I just wanted to give 2:38:52.160 --> 2:38:54.840 people like a rundown on what the actual people in power, 2:38:54.959 --> 2:38:57.600 how they're discussing climate change, and what their expectations are 2:38:58.120 --> 2:39:00.680 and how you know, expectations have you know, the past 2:39:00.760 --> 2:39:03.720 five years have arisen by basically a degree, right, because 2:39:03.720 --> 2:39:07.000 like we're like we can do one point five, and 2:39:07.120 --> 2:39:10.160 now we're like we can do two point five. So 2:39:10.560 --> 2:39:12.840 that is what we've done in five years. That's what's happened. 2:39:13.200 --> 2:39:17.959 And I think that's what justifies the kind of blanket 2:39:18.040 --> 2:39:22.000 pessimism about anything coming from copy about anything being suggested 2:39:22.040 --> 2:39:25.320 by like a state actor and international organization, which is 2:39:25.360 --> 2:39:28.600 that like we've all watched the last twenty years, like 2:39:28.879 --> 2:39:31.240 they've said a lot of great stuff about what could work. 2:39:31.320 --> 2:39:34.040 It's like that Nature article about like Okay, well, like 2:39:34.120 --> 2:39:36.120 you've got a bunch of math here arguing about how 2:39:36.200 --> 2:39:38.640 it might work. But we've got the last twenty years 2:39:38.879 --> 2:39:41.800 of policies to snave. But it probably won't right. But 2:39:41.879 --> 2:39:44.040 it's almost certainly not going to work, right, so we 2:39:44.200 --> 2:39:47.960 we can say, like, yeah, theoretically this might be helpful, 2:39:48.080 --> 2:39:51.640 but like, realistically nothing, everything you guys have argued about 2:39:51.720 --> 2:39:55.640 in the same way has been a miserable failure pretty much. Well, 2:39:56.040 --> 2:39:58.760 that that wraps it up for us. Uh. You can 2:39:58.760 --> 2:40:02.320 follow the show on Twitter and apparently Instagram. Um at 2:40:02.360 --> 2:40:05.880 happened here? Pod and Coolson of Media. We got a 2:40:05.920 --> 2:40:09.560 new Coolson Media show dropping soon. Uh, Mega Corp. That's 2:40:09.600 --> 2:40:12.800 pretty exciting. Check it out. It's about how we love 2:40:12.879 --> 2:40:16.280 Amazon and you should pay the money. I don't think 2:40:16.280 --> 2:40:20.200 that's what it's about, but anyway, Yeah, so buy some 2:40:20.320 --> 2:40:24.959 carbon offsets from Amazon and with that, with that, we're 2:40:25.000 --> 2:40:40.800 closing the show. Welcome back to it could happen here 2:40:40.879 --> 2:40:43.280 a show about how things are following up art at 2:40:43.320 --> 2:40:45.400 least generally, a show about how things are falling apart, 2:40:45.760 --> 2:40:48.400 um and how to you know, maybe maybe not falling 2:40:48.480 --> 2:40:50.400 apart that much. But we have a we have a 2:40:50.480 --> 2:40:53.320 little bit of a different episode for you today. A 2:40:53.440 --> 2:40:55.120 friend of a friend of mine reached out to me 2:40:55.240 --> 2:40:57.080 recently in the wake of a pair of episodes we 2:40:57.160 --> 2:40:59.800 did From Behind the Bastards on sexual abuse within the 2:40:59.840 --> 2:41:02.360 by Scouts of America, which was, if you're not aware, 2:41:02.400 --> 2:41:06.000 and endemic problem, with more than a hundred thousand victims 2:41:06.040 --> 2:41:08.840 having come forward in the last year alone. UM. And 2:41:08.959 --> 2:41:11.240 this is a case that kind of ties into that. Uh. 2:41:11.480 --> 2:41:15.000 It's it's the case of a young man UM who 2:41:15.080 --> 2:41:17.640 committed murder in a young man who was also UM, 2:41:18.000 --> 2:41:21.120 a victim of a terrible series of crime. So I 2:41:21.160 --> 2:41:22.880 wanted to kind of shine a little bit of light 2:41:23.000 --> 2:41:26.160 on the case of Heath Stocks today, UM. And to 2:41:26.240 --> 2:41:28.920 help me do that is Mr Michael Kaiser. Michael, welcome 2:41:28.920 --> 2:41:33.120 to the show, Good afternoon, Thanks for having me. Michael. 2:41:33.160 --> 2:41:35.480 Would you like to introduce kind of your affiliation with 2:41:35.600 --> 2:41:40.000 this case before we go over the broad strokes of it. Sure. UM. Again, 2:41:40.120 --> 2:41:42.720 my name is Michael Kaiser. I'm a criminal defense attorney 2:41:42.800 --> 2:41:46.640 with the Last and Cassinelli Firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. UM. 2:41:47.040 --> 2:41:51.440 This case started in the nineties and I was I'm 2:41:51.480 --> 2:41:53.920 thirty two, so I was not practicing. Then I came 2:41:54.040 --> 2:41:58.080 into this case in the last two years after Heath 2:41:58.160 --> 2:42:02.280 has already I've been sentence to three life sentences, and 2:42:02.560 --> 2:42:06.480 I assisted him in filing a petition for a commutation, 2:42:06.640 --> 2:42:10.039 asking for the Governor of Arkansas to reduce those sentences 2:42:10.120 --> 2:42:12.040 to a term of years and giving him a chance 2:42:12.080 --> 2:42:15.560 of parole while he is still alive. And and can we, uh, 2:42:15.800 --> 2:42:18.360 let's go over kind of what happened in this case 2:42:18.480 --> 2:42:22.720 the basis because this is this is a really sad story, UM, 2:42:23.120 --> 2:42:26.360 and it's one of those things where there's there's not 2:42:26.520 --> 2:42:29.160 a lot of I think, easy answers. But yeah, let's 2:42:29.200 --> 2:42:31.320 let's talk about sort of the broad strokes of what happened, 2:42:31.320 --> 2:42:33.480 and then we can drill into what what you're trying 2:42:33.560 --> 2:42:37.000 to achieve here. Sure, So the broad strokes are back 2:42:37.040 --> 2:42:44.200 in UM, when Heath was a young man, UM, just 2:42:44.720 --> 2:42:48.600 twenty years old. UM, he was arrested and charged with 2:42:48.879 --> 2:42:53.160 killing his entire immediate family, both his mother, father, UM, 2:42:53.200 --> 2:42:57.680 and his younger sister. He was quickly identified as the 2:42:57.720 --> 2:43:04.240 primary suspect, question confessed, arrested, charged, and within I believe 2:43:04.320 --> 2:43:07.360 six months, had pleaded guilty to all three capital murders 2:43:07.760 --> 2:43:11.240 and received a sense of life without parole for each 2:43:11.440 --> 2:43:15.320 each one of those, for a total of three life sentences. UM. 2:43:15.640 --> 2:43:19.320 Shortly after he was convicted, UM, it came to light 2:43:19.520 --> 2:43:24.640 that his longtime boy scout Scout Master Jack Walls had 2:43:24.720 --> 2:43:28.080 been molesting Heats since he was around age nine or ten. 2:43:28.920 --> 2:43:32.880 UM that it was a serial sort of abuse that Heat, 2:43:33.040 --> 2:43:35.760 that Heath was not the only one. UM, that it 2:43:35.840 --> 2:43:41.320 was particularly brutal, and that his abuse didn't just involve 2:43:41.680 --> 2:43:44.720 you know, sexual acts. UM, it was kind of a 2:43:44.800 --> 2:43:47.840 long term I hate to use the term brainwashing, but 2:43:47.920 --> 2:43:50.080 a lot of people have about what he did to 2:43:50.160 --> 2:43:53.800 those boys. UM. Heats is not the only life that 2:43:53.959 --> 2:43:57.119 was ruined. Heath's family is not the only families lives 2:43:57.120 --> 2:44:00.240 who were ruined. UM, but Heats is unfortunately the most 2:44:00.280 --> 2:44:04.320 extreme case UM where where he he ultimately committed a 2:44:04.400 --> 2:44:08.680 crime against against his family. We'll get into the circumstances 2:44:08.720 --> 2:44:09.960 in a second. I just want to add a little 2:44:09.959 --> 2:44:12.760 bit of clarification that the scout master, we're looking at 2:44:12.800 --> 2:44:15.240 between a hundred and a hundred and fifty victims, kind 2:44:15.280 --> 2:44:18.760 of conservatively based on what I've been reading. Yes, Yeah, 2:44:19.200 --> 2:44:22.240 and it's it's some of I mean, it's so this guy. 2:44:22.800 --> 2:44:24.080 Some of it's the stuff that you heard in a 2:44:24.120 --> 2:44:25.760 lot of these other cases. Some of it is is 2:44:25.879 --> 2:44:28.360 very unique to this guy. But he would basically he 2:44:28.400 --> 2:44:32.120 would have people over, kids over camping on his land. UM, 2:44:32.280 --> 2:44:35.720 he would take them shooting. He worked for an ammunition company. UM, 2:44:35.959 --> 2:44:39.120 he would molest them. He would also like purchase prostitutes 2:44:39.200 --> 2:44:42.280 for them. And it was this, UM, I mean a 2:44:42.360 --> 2:44:45.240 lot of of really some of the worst abuse that 2:44:45.280 --> 2:44:47.920 I've read about in connection to any of these these 2:44:47.959 --> 2:44:51.680 boy scouts sexual abuse cases. UM, it's it's pretty harrowing 2:44:51.800 --> 2:44:54.040 stuff when you read the stories of other kids, UM, 2:44:54.640 --> 2:44:59.720 who were kind of in the same position that Heath was. Yeah, Unfortunately, 2:45:00.040 --> 2:45:02.520 you're you're correct. It's you know, every time you think 2:45:02.600 --> 2:45:05.560 this can't get worse, or this case is so extreme, 2:45:05.640 --> 2:45:08.800 that you find some other element that's more offensive, more appalling, 2:45:09.400 --> 2:45:13.360 more victims, more more families ruined down the line. Even 2:45:13.760 --> 2:45:19.240 um today thirty forty years fifty years later. M. Yeah, 2:45:19.480 --> 2:45:22.640 so how does the because I mean, one of the 2:45:22.720 --> 2:45:25.520 things about this is this is a pretty the initial 2:45:25.640 --> 2:45:30.120 crime here is pretty horrific. Um. And I think it's 2:45:30.200 --> 2:45:32.560 it's one of those things where it is hard to 2:45:32.640 --> 2:45:34.879 have a lot of sympathy for Heath until you kind 2:45:34.920 --> 2:45:39.360 of learn about what this guy like, his his his 2:45:39.640 --> 2:45:41.600 role in the crime, because it was not just a 2:45:41.680 --> 2:45:45.280 case of, um, you know, a kid committing murder. It 2:45:45.360 --> 2:45:49.120 was a case of a kid being um, very deliberately 2:45:49.720 --> 2:45:52.920 pushed into committing murder. And potentially I think that there's 2:45:53.080 --> 2:45:56.400 the allegations being made her that he was he directly 2:45:57.000 --> 2:46:01.840 helped with it as well. Yes, um, so you know, 2:46:01.920 --> 2:46:04.200 at first glance, yeah, it looks it looks really bad 2:46:04.320 --> 2:46:07.040 for Heath. Um. But over the years, um, what we 2:46:07.160 --> 2:46:10.440 have learned is that what what really happened is that 2:46:10.560 --> 2:46:14.440 Heath had been serially abused sexually, physically, emotionally and otherwise 2:46:14.520 --> 2:46:18.080 by Jack for a period of ten plus years. His 2:46:18.240 --> 2:46:22.760 mother discovers the abuse and discusses it with her, her 2:46:22.840 --> 2:46:28.840 pastor another religious counselor. Uh. Heath informs Jack that you know, 2:46:28.959 --> 2:46:32.440 his mother is aware and and Jack instructs heath to 2:46:32.560 --> 2:46:36.039 do as he's been taught. UM, and and to kill 2:46:36.120 --> 2:46:42.200 the problem. Um. Jack was never convicted with anything associated 2:46:42.280 --> 2:46:45.800 with the death of of the Stocks family. UM. However, 2:46:46.400 --> 2:46:50.359 his first set of life sentences for the many assaults 2:46:50.400 --> 2:46:53.360 that he was convicted of, UM, when they were reversed, 2:46:53.400 --> 2:46:55.680 it was because the judge in that in that sentencing 2:46:55.760 --> 2:46:57.880 hearing said, you know that the death of the Stocks 2:46:57.920 --> 2:47:00.640 family is also on your hands. And because he hadn't 2:47:00.640 --> 2:47:03.280 been formally convicted of that, he actually had his original 2:47:03.360 --> 2:47:07.560 life sentences reversed. Every sentencing he got essentially the same sentence, 2:47:07.800 --> 2:47:11.320 multiple life sentences in additional years. UM. But yes, there 2:47:11.480 --> 2:47:15.640 there's there is a connection. UM. It wasn't known at 2:47:15.680 --> 2:47:18.640 the time, or at least it wasn't publicized, And if 2:47:18.800 --> 2:47:20.800 if it had been, I think the results of his 2:47:21.000 --> 2:47:22.720 case would be very different. I don't think you and 2:47:22.760 --> 2:47:25.720 I would be speaking right now. Yeah. And it's I mean, 2:47:25.800 --> 2:47:29.520 obviously like this is this is this is a thoroughly 2:47:29.920 --> 2:47:34.960 horrible situation. UM. And when somebody commits three murders, I 2:47:35.080 --> 2:47:37.520 think even people who are very critical of the criminal 2:47:37.600 --> 2:47:40.440 justice system should agree that, like something needs to be done. 2:47:41.160 --> 2:47:45.440 But I it just seems so unfair to lock this 2:47:45.640 --> 2:47:48.600 kit up for his entire life without kind of and 2:47:48.760 --> 2:47:52.080 and and acting as if this was just a thing 2:47:52.760 --> 2:47:54.720 he did on his own, rather than kind of the 2:47:54.800 --> 2:47:58.600 result of a pretty horrific I mean, one of the 2:47:58.640 --> 2:48:01.960 most one of the most horrific patterns of abuse and 2:48:02.040 --> 2:48:05.080 exploitation of a of a child that I can imagine, 2:48:05.800 --> 2:48:08.880 um And I don't know, I don't know what would 2:48:08.920 --> 2:48:13.560 actually like help other than getting him into a situation 2:48:13.640 --> 2:48:15.680 where he's not spending the rest of his life in 2:48:15.720 --> 2:48:17.520 a prison cell. Like I don't know what the long 2:48:17.680 --> 2:48:21.760 term for him looks like in terms of rebuilding this 2:48:21.920 --> 2:48:24.920 guy's potential to have a life, but it certainly starts 2:48:25.000 --> 2:48:27.840 with him not spending the rest of that life in 2:48:27.920 --> 2:48:32.200 a jail cell. The problem we've encountered, um with Heat's 2:48:32.280 --> 2:48:35.280 case is the parole board, and many just even just 2:48:35.400 --> 2:48:39.279 people that encounter the case wonder why would he attack 2:48:39.360 --> 2:48:42.920 and kill you know, his immediate family rather than his abuser. 2:48:43.760 --> 2:48:46.560 And in the twenty five plus years or in the 2:48:46.640 --> 2:48:49.600 twenty five years or so since this happened, I mean 2:48:50.320 --> 2:48:54.439 juvenile that our understanding of the juvenile brain, neurocycle psychology 2:48:54.480 --> 2:48:59.600 in general um has has come leaps and bounds, and 2:48:59.680 --> 2:49:03.680 so know that a serially abused child has brain damage 2:49:04.240 --> 2:49:07.880 from really about the time that that starts happening. And 2:49:08.000 --> 2:49:11.960 so in Heats crazy world, and we do have this 2:49:12.080 --> 2:49:17.400 in our clemency application. We've had UM abuse specialists evaluate 2:49:17.480 --> 2:49:21.720 Heath and and see how he you know, his actions 2:49:21.840 --> 2:49:25.600 conformed to our current understanding within the crazy world that 2:49:25.720 --> 2:49:30.040 he lived in. He actually was making, dare I say, 2:49:30.080 --> 2:49:34.560 the reasonable decision. So Jack had demonstrated numerous times over 2:49:34.600 --> 2:49:38.080 the years he has physical, sexual, and and even control 2:49:38.160 --> 2:49:40.199 over heats life. He can end it at any time. 2:49:40.360 --> 2:49:44.160 He explicitly and implicitly threatens the boys all the time. 2:49:44.320 --> 2:49:47.960 He's got weapons everywhere. He's a Vietnam veteran. He brings 2:49:48.040 --> 2:49:50.080 them out to his property, shows them how to shoot, 2:49:50.160 --> 2:49:53.120 shows them what he will do to those who you know, 2:49:53.480 --> 2:49:56.800 go against him. Um, So, within Heat's world, he actually 2:49:56.920 --> 2:50:02.199 made a somewhat reasonable decision. He uh, the bigger threat 2:50:02.320 --> 2:50:05.320 was was Jack. Um. He can't kill Jack, so he 2:50:05.440 --> 2:50:08.000 has to do the thing to appease Jack to avoid 2:50:08.080 --> 2:50:12.520 the more severe abuse. That's oversimplifying it, but that's something 2:50:12.640 --> 2:50:15.640 that I don't think we would have been able to conceptualize. 2:50:15.680 --> 2:50:19.160 Back in the nineties, you had the element of there's 2:50:19.360 --> 2:50:21.880 it's it's mail on mail, and we're talking about a 2:50:22.000 --> 2:50:25.640 very small rural community, UM in central Arkansas, and that 2:50:25.800 --> 2:50:29.520 element cannot be overlooked at all as well. That was 2:50:29.600 --> 2:50:31.600 a huge thing that Jack was counting on to keep 2:50:31.680 --> 2:50:35.360 these boys silent. UM. He explicitly told them, if you 2:50:35.840 --> 2:50:38.640 tell what happened to you, they're going to think that 2:50:38.879 --> 2:50:45.160 you are homosexual and a liar. So there's just there's 2:50:45.360 --> 2:50:48.119 there's just so many horrible things. UM. In this case, 2:50:48.840 --> 2:50:52.600 Jack had decades of experience doing this and unfortunately, because 2:50:52.680 --> 2:50:54.640 of his position in the community, the son of a 2:50:54.720 --> 2:50:59.480 prominent judge, UM, the long time Scout master, the communities 2:51:00.080 --> 2:51:03.520 man of the Year multiple times, UM, he had access 2:51:03.640 --> 2:51:07.199 to dozens and dozens of boys, in fact, entire generations 2:51:07.400 --> 2:51:10.600 of these of these boys in Lono County. UM. Heat's 2:51:10.640 --> 2:51:13.840 case is just one of many. Unfortunately, it's the most 2:51:13.920 --> 2:51:16.040 extreme case and it's kind of tests the bounds of 2:51:16.080 --> 2:51:20.920 our mercy. But the kid that discovered Jack, while he's 2:51:20.959 --> 2:51:24.960 a hero, ultimately he killed himself and he's not the 2:51:25.040 --> 2:51:28.080 only one. So unfortunately, the Stocks family are not the 2:51:28.200 --> 2:51:31.240 only people who lost their lives and not the only 2:51:31.280 --> 2:51:35.080 people whose lives, just like he's, were completely destroyed by 2:51:35.160 --> 2:51:38.600 Jack Walls. Yeah, and this is this is an important 2:51:38.600 --> 2:51:41.080 thing to understand because when we're talking about kind of 2:51:41.160 --> 2:51:44.280 the the lingering impacts of childhood sexual abuse, it can 2:51:44.320 --> 2:51:47.720 take a wide variety of forms and when we like 2:51:48.160 --> 2:51:50.040 but but it but it is important to understand that 2:51:50.160 --> 2:51:53.680 the damage it can do goes so much further beyond 2:51:54.000 --> 2:51:57.080 like the physical damage done by the abuse, like these 2:51:57.080 --> 2:52:00.640 are your your brain is still forming and growing when 2:52:00.680 --> 2:52:04.640 you're that young, and he this is one manifestation of 2:52:04.760 --> 2:52:08.560 kind of what can happen um at the more extreme end, admittedly, 2:52:08.840 --> 2:52:11.080 um as as the result like this is why it's 2:52:11.080 --> 2:52:13.720 such a heinous crime to abuse a child in this way. 2:52:13.800 --> 2:52:16.160 And it's just I don't know, like you're right, it 2:52:16.320 --> 2:52:20.560 is it It tests the limit of um people's capacity 2:52:20.760 --> 2:52:23.520 for I don't know, forgiveness seems like the wrong word, 2:52:23.600 --> 2:52:27.000 but like clemency. You know, this again is a pretty 2:52:27.160 --> 2:52:30.840 heinous crime. Um. But at the same time, I can't 2:52:30.879 --> 2:52:36.000 bring myself to think that what he endured leading up 2:52:36.080 --> 2:52:38.680 to this shouldn't have an impact on what happens to 2:52:38.800 --> 2:52:41.960 him afterwards, right, Like it does. It does reduce his 2:52:42.240 --> 2:52:44.960 his complicity in this, and I just feel it feels 2:52:45.000 --> 2:52:48.280 so wrong to say that, like, well, he should spend 2:52:48.320 --> 2:52:52.560 the rest of his life behind bars, Like that's just 2:52:52.680 --> 2:52:56.600 not I can't imagine anything could help, Like I can't 2:52:56.640 --> 2:52:59.080 imagine that could help in any way. Um, just writing 2:52:59.160 --> 2:53:02.400 this this person and off forever, I don't know. It 2:53:02.520 --> 2:53:05.480 just is, it's it's fucked. What are the next steps 2:53:05.560 --> 2:53:09.000 for y'all, for your for the defense team. So at 2:53:09.080 --> 2:53:12.840 this point, we've already filed a petition UH with the 2:53:13.120 --> 2:53:17.440 Arkansas governor requesting a commutation. That's not a pardon, that's 2:53:17.480 --> 2:53:20.520 not something saying say that Heath is innocent. We're asking 2:53:20.560 --> 2:53:23.600 the governor to modify his sentences to a term of 2:53:23.720 --> 2:53:27.240 years forty years in each case, to be served concurrently. 2:53:27.360 --> 2:53:33.959 So in effect, one single sentence of forty years. Yeah. Well, 2:53:34.000 --> 2:53:37.199 in Arkansas, you're actually at the time he was convicted, 2:53:37.240 --> 2:53:40.480 he'd be parle eligible at se. So that's twenty eight years. 2:53:40.640 --> 2:53:42.720 That's not a guarantee of pearle. That is just what 2:53:42.840 --> 2:53:46.320 it means, parole eligibility. So that's what we've asked for. Um, 2:53:46.400 --> 2:53:49.680 we think his institutional record speaks for itself, and if 2:53:49.800 --> 2:53:53.040 and when he is a candidate for pearle, he hopefully 2:53:54.000 --> 2:53:57.160 will make pearole. He's he's done everything within his power 2:53:57.720 --> 2:54:01.960 UM to do so. UM. If this fails, it's right now. Uh. 2:54:02.400 --> 2:54:05.080 We in Arkansas at first goes to the parole Board, 2:54:05.440 --> 2:54:08.320 who makes a non binding recommendation to the governor. They 2:54:08.440 --> 2:54:13.359 have recommended that the governor deny it. UM, which is unfortunate, 2:54:13.400 --> 2:54:16.680 but again it's not binding. UM. The governor now has 2:54:16.840 --> 2:54:20.959 I believe until February or March of two to issue 2:54:21.120 --> 2:54:25.200 his decision. UM. He has not yet. UM. We have 2:54:25.800 --> 2:54:28.280 requested a sit down with the governor. I don't know 2:54:28.400 --> 2:54:30.880 if we'll actually sit down with Governor Asa Hutchinson. We 2:54:30.959 --> 2:54:34.600 will sit down with his criminal justice coordinator. UM. We're 2:54:34.680 --> 2:54:37.720 thankful and lucky to have the support of all of 2:54:37.879 --> 2:54:43.960 the remaining victims family members. So both sides of Heat's family. UM, 2:54:44.440 --> 2:54:47.160 you know we have we have extensive support. UM. It 2:54:47.360 --> 2:54:50.760 wasn't they they A lot of them had to work 2:54:50.840 --> 2:54:52.760 to get to this point, a lot of them had 2:54:52.800 --> 2:54:55.840 to understand the true impact of the abuse. But at 2:54:55.879 --> 2:54:58.640 this point, UM, we have extensive support from both sides. 2:54:58.680 --> 2:55:03.320 Of his family. UM. As far as we know, there 2:55:03.360 --> 2:55:08.200 are no objections to his commutation application from from victims 2:55:08.280 --> 2:55:10.800 family members. The only ones that there have been are 2:55:10.879 --> 2:55:14.240 from the sentencing judge or from the sentencing court. It's 2:55:14.240 --> 2:55:16.560 actually not the same judge and the sentencing or the 2:55:16.640 --> 2:55:20.520 prosecutor from that from that county, again a different person um, 2:55:20.600 --> 2:55:25.120 but they felt the need to object. I should this fail, 2:55:25.520 --> 2:55:30.880 we will seek additional post conviction remedies um uh. In Arkansas, 2:55:30.959 --> 2:55:33.520 we have something called a petition for writ of ericorium 2:55:33.600 --> 2:55:36.720 nobis UM. You can file it. You have to ask 2:55:36.760 --> 2:55:38.760 the Supreme Court, Hey, is it okay if I file 2:55:38.760 --> 2:55:41.080 a petition back in the trial court asking them to 2:55:41.120 --> 2:55:45.600 consider something that, if we had known back in ninety eight, 2:55:45.920 --> 2:55:48.879 would have affected the outcome of the litigation. In this case, 2:55:49.360 --> 2:55:53.640 we would point to the we we've had heath evaluated. UM. 2:55:53.680 --> 2:55:57.600 It will point to that neuropsychological evaluation UM as as 2:55:57.680 --> 2:56:02.880 new evidence. UM. We couldn't fully make a connection at 2:56:02.920 --> 2:56:06.200 the time between his abuse and the offense to answer 2:56:06.280 --> 2:56:10.600 that question why he killed his family rather than his abuser. 2:56:11.040 --> 2:56:14.400 We now can. And so that's what we're going to allege, 2:56:14.480 --> 2:56:17.080 is that is that new evidence. Um whether the court 2:56:17.760 --> 2:56:20.840 will will find that it is remains to be seen. 2:56:20.920 --> 2:56:23.440 When he tried this on his own about five years ago, 2:56:23.560 --> 2:56:26.560 the court denied it. He alleged the new evidence was 2:56:28.120 --> 2:56:30.560 the fact of the long term sexual abuse of him 2:56:30.600 --> 2:56:32.560 by Jack Walls, and the court in a in an 2:56:32.680 --> 2:56:37.240 opinion that really does not um, you know, shows shows 2:56:37.280 --> 2:56:40.240 the lack of understanding of long term juvenile sexual abuse, 2:56:40.480 --> 2:56:43.720 found that well though you personally were aware of all 2:56:43.800 --> 2:56:45.840 of that in your own mind because it had happened 2:56:45.879 --> 2:56:48.280 to you, So that was not new evidence. And I 2:56:48.360 --> 2:56:52.280 mean we know that the average male who makes this 2:56:52.400 --> 2:56:57.680 sort of disclosure, it occurs deep into adulthood. So it's 2:56:57.760 --> 2:57:01.400 just at every level of the system. Even today, we're 2:57:01.480 --> 2:57:04.960 still feeling the effects of kind of that old school 2:57:05.040 --> 2:57:09.920 mentality about about this, and it's unfortunate. We could talk 2:57:10.000 --> 2:57:12.920 about kind of the the car serile state and this 2:57:13.080 --> 2:57:17.720 idea that like penalty is the way to respond to 2:57:17.840 --> 2:57:19.880 any kind of crime. But even if you believe that, 2:57:19.959 --> 2:57:23.119 even if you believe that, like you have to punish 2:57:23.240 --> 2:57:27.600 people with incarceration when they commit crimes. He's done twenty 2:57:27.680 --> 2:57:32.520 five years, Like that's no one, No one is discussing 2:57:32.600 --> 2:57:35.480 the possibility of Heath not being punished for the murder, 2:57:35.680 --> 2:57:38.240 you know, because it's he has been not just with 2:57:38.560 --> 2:57:41.199 time behind bars, but the fact that his family's gone. 2:57:41.440 --> 2:57:44.760 The idea that the state could do anything that's worse 2:57:44.920 --> 2:57:48.440 to him than than the scout Master did, to be honest, 2:57:48.600 --> 2:57:52.160 is kind of absurd in my head. But UM, where 2:57:53.120 --> 2:57:56.360 is there anything that, like, I don't know, I'm trying 2:57:56.440 --> 2:57:59.040 to determine, like what can be done to help in 2:57:59.120 --> 2:58:02.480 this situation? Is there any way people can actually help 2:58:02.520 --> 2:58:04.880 outside of like you and the team that's that's working 2:58:04.959 --> 2:58:09.840 to try and sit down with the governor? Yeah? UM, 2:58:10.240 --> 2:58:14.120 I mean public support is is wonderful. The more people 2:58:14.280 --> 2:58:17.080 that are pointing out the problems in Heath's case and 2:58:17.200 --> 2:58:20.879 with his sentences and that are reaching out to the governor, UM, 2:58:20.959 --> 2:58:25.120 the better we think our chances are. UM. I apologize, 2:58:25.160 --> 2:58:27.200 I don't have the email address on me, but the 2:58:27.280 --> 2:58:32.040 governor has several publicly accessible UM accounts, as does his 2:58:32.120 --> 2:58:36.480 criminal Justice coordinator. Even just getting on Facebook UM and 2:58:36.720 --> 2:58:40.080 and bringing it up. UM, there's a Facebook account managed 2:58:40.120 --> 2:58:43.160 by one of Heath's friends. I'm in Florida called at 2:58:43.240 --> 2:58:47.199 Hope for heat Stocks. UM. It's there's also a website. 2:58:47.800 --> 2:58:50.440 I think it's Hope for Heat stocks dot info. It's 2:58:50.560 --> 2:58:53.720 probably the most extensive trove of resources in this case. 2:58:53.800 --> 2:58:56.760 It has almost all original documents. It's where I still 2:58:56.879 --> 2:58:59.800 go to access things when I need them, even though 2:59:00.200 --> 2:59:03.879 I am his attorney. So there's a lot out there. 2:59:03.920 --> 2:59:06.920 There's a lot of ways to support the cause, even 2:59:07.040 --> 2:59:10.120 just telling other people about it. Um. We do have 2:59:11.240 --> 2:59:18.200 a documentary in the works. UM. I actually don't think 2:59:18.240 --> 2:59:20.279 it has a producer at this point, but we're hopeful 2:59:20.320 --> 2:59:23.920 to have something out in early to make Keith, to 2:59:24.040 --> 2:59:28.000 make Jack, to make this case more of a household name. UM. 2:59:28.120 --> 2:59:31.119 The hopes that you know, if any sort of um, 2:59:32.400 --> 2:59:34.720 you know, if there's more support out there, more pressure 2:59:35.000 --> 2:59:37.960 on the governor, it will increase the odds that that 2:59:38.040 --> 2:59:40.200 will do the right thing here. Yeah, I mean, this 2:59:40.320 --> 2:59:43.600 shouldn't be a political issue. There shouldn't be a left 2:59:43.720 --> 2:59:45.840 or right thing. Like everyone should be able to see 2:59:47.040 --> 2:59:50.520 this is uh, this is the result of abuse, and 2:59:50.640 --> 2:59:55.200 that should have an impact on the what we actually 2:59:55.320 --> 2:59:58.320 what's actually what our society actually does to this kid 2:59:58.400 --> 3:00:01.320 in the wake of the crime. Perhaps it's like foolish 3:00:01.520 --> 3:00:05.920 to hope for some sort of rationality as regards a 3:00:06.040 --> 3:00:08.720 case like this, But I would hope that we could 3:00:08.800 --> 3:00:13.400 be rational about this and everyone agree, yes, this kid 3:00:13.480 --> 3:00:18.120 deserves something more than what he's gotten. UM. I don't know. 3:00:18.560 --> 3:00:23.680 It's it's a bleak one though. That's putting it lightly. 3:00:24.320 --> 3:00:26.840 New York recently recently passed a law that kind of 3:00:26.879 --> 3:00:30.480 acknowledged kind of where you're at with it for victims 3:00:30.800 --> 3:00:34.959 of domestic or sexual abuse who then committed crimes um 3:00:35.240 --> 3:00:40.280 that weren't necessarily during the course of that specific abuse UM. 3:00:40.360 --> 3:00:43.840 And it allowed people like Heath to apply for resentencing 3:00:43.959 --> 3:00:48.160 if they met certain statutory qualifications um for things that 3:00:48.400 --> 3:00:52.000 mitigated their crime didn't justify it, but that didn't come 3:00:52.040 --> 3:00:55.760 out originally. Unfortunately, in Arkansas, we don't have a similar process. 3:00:55.920 --> 3:00:59.480 The only thing we have available is this clemency commutation process. 3:00:59.840 --> 3:01:02.160 And unfortunately, as you said, it should be a political 3:01:02.280 --> 3:01:05.640 but it's not. It's it's explicitly political. The parole board 3:01:05.680 --> 3:01:08.560 are all appointees by our governor. The governor is an 3:01:08.600 --> 3:01:11.120 elected official. There's a reason we filed it in the 3:01:11.240 --> 3:01:14.120 last year of his last term in Arkansas. He has 3:01:14.240 --> 3:01:16.360 term limited, so we're trying to get him at a 3:01:16.400 --> 3:01:20.040 point where he's as free from the politics to do 3:01:20.240 --> 3:01:22.920 what he actually thinks is correct. But to think that 3:01:23.040 --> 3:01:28.520 politics will be removed is I mean, yeah, it never is. No, 3:01:28.840 --> 3:01:32.080 this is this is the United States inies, you know, 3:01:32.440 --> 3:01:36.160 politics is is a factor here, and there's a deeply 3:01:36.280 --> 3:01:40.800 divisive case in the state and especially in Lono County. Well, 3:01:40.879 --> 3:01:42.960 it's hard I can imagine it being hard to talk 3:01:43.040 --> 3:01:45.560 with people about just because again, the nature of the 3:01:45.640 --> 3:01:48.280 crime is is horrific. And so if you talk about like, well, 3:01:48.360 --> 3:01:52.000 we we think this guy should have another chance at life, 3:01:52.120 --> 3:01:54.160 and you're like, well, but he killed three people, he 3:01:54.280 --> 3:01:57.720 killed his sister, and yes, that is the case, but 3:01:58.040 --> 3:02:01.120 that's not the only thing going down here. And you 3:02:01.280 --> 3:02:03.800 just have to I think, if you're if you're at all, 3:02:03.959 --> 3:02:05.920 even if you're not coming at this from kind of 3:02:06.160 --> 3:02:09.800 politically where I am in regarding you know, the car 3:02:09.920 --> 3:02:13.360 serial state, you have to acknowledge that, like, this is 3:02:13.440 --> 3:02:16.680 not a race Heath's crimes. But Heath's crimes were also 3:02:16.760 --> 3:02:19.360 the result of not just the scout master's abuse, but 3:02:19.440 --> 3:02:21.760 of a number of failures on a on a wide 3:02:21.879 --> 3:02:25.400 level in our society that allowed that abuse to occur. 3:02:25.800 --> 3:02:28.760 Um and so I don't know. I I feel like 3:02:29.080 --> 3:02:32.120 there's a lot of reasons why it behooves us to 3:02:33.480 --> 3:02:35.560 give this kid another chance. I don't know. That doesn't 3:02:35.560 --> 3:02:40.160 make it easier to convince anyone else, But yeah, well, 3:02:40.240 --> 3:02:42.760 how would this case play out if it happened today 3:02:43.760 --> 3:02:47.880 versus in even in a more rural part of Arkansas. 3:02:47.920 --> 3:02:50.320 I think our understanding of several of the issues here 3:02:51.080 --> 3:02:55.320 it is so has come so far that my hope 3:02:55.400 --> 3:02:57.720 is Heath would have received a term of years rather 3:02:57.840 --> 3:03:02.080 than being charged with capital are They originally were seeking 3:03:02.120 --> 3:03:04.480 the death penalty, and he made a deal for multiple 3:03:04.520 --> 3:03:07.720 life sentences, both as someone under twenty one and as 3:03:07.760 --> 3:03:10.120 a victim of long term sexual abuse. I would like 3:03:10.320 --> 3:03:13.800 to think that if this happened today, even in that county, 3:03:14.440 --> 3:03:16.960 what we're asking for is something close to what what 3:03:17.160 --> 3:03:21.600 would what would happen? I would hope, I would hope 3:03:21.720 --> 3:03:25.039 so that that's why, again, we didn't ask for a pardon. 3:03:25.160 --> 3:03:27.280 We didn't ask let him out today. We said, let 3:03:27.360 --> 3:03:30.160 him earn it, let him still feel the weight of 3:03:30.520 --> 3:03:32.600 of what he has done. But give him that light 3:03:32.680 --> 3:03:35.600 at the end of the tunnel, because you know, there 3:03:35.720 --> 3:03:38.600 is no one in the Arkansas Department of Correction. Even 3:03:40.480 --> 3:03:43.120 with that, there's just not a victim like him there, 3:03:43.320 --> 3:03:45.359 and there's not someone who who could be an advocate 3:03:45.480 --> 3:03:51.560 for victims like him were he to be released. So yep, well, 3:03:51.640 --> 3:03:53.440 all right, Michael, is there anything else you wanted to 3:03:53.480 --> 3:03:57.040 get into with this or any other ways people might 3:03:57.080 --> 3:04:00.040 be able to help check out the website again and 3:04:00.879 --> 3:04:05.440 post on social media. Um. Uh. The one thing I 3:04:05.520 --> 3:04:08.640 think we didn't focus on here is Heath himself. Um. 3:04:08.760 --> 3:04:12.080 Heath is a deeply spiritual individual. He's someone who lives 3:04:12.160 --> 3:04:15.480 with this on his conscious almost every moment of the day. 3:04:16.240 --> 3:04:19.640 This is not not someone who you know, feels he's 3:04:19.680 --> 3:04:23.120 skated by by avoiding the death penalty. Um. This is 3:04:23.160 --> 3:04:25.880 someone who has had to learn about trauma, mostly on 3:04:26.040 --> 3:04:29.120 his own, because with those life sentences, he is ineligible 3:04:29.320 --> 3:04:32.439 for so many of the programs of the scant programs 3:04:32.480 --> 3:04:34.840 and resources that we have in the Department of Correction 3:04:35.040 --> 3:04:36.800 because they don't give it to people who don't have 3:04:36.959 --> 3:04:40.160 parole dates. So he's had to do a lot of 3:04:40.240 --> 3:04:43.240 this on his own. He's come a remarkable way. He's 3:04:43.240 --> 3:04:48.560 still someone that needs um probably extensive treatment and therapy 3:04:48.680 --> 3:04:50.760 to deal with his own trauma as well as to 3:04:50.879 --> 3:04:54.879 deal with the effects of what he did on himself. Um. 3:04:55.440 --> 3:04:59.279 But he's a remarkable individual. He's a great self advocate. 3:04:59.320 --> 3:05:01.760 I wish you could speak with him as well. Um. 3:05:01.879 --> 3:05:04.440 He's someone I'm proud to represent. Not just that I 3:05:04.520 --> 3:05:07.360 do because I get paid. Um, this is why I 3:05:07.440 --> 3:05:10.959 got into the practice of law. Is this type of case. Um, 3:05:11.600 --> 3:05:15.400 he is not innocent, but he is not. Uh, he 3:05:15.680 --> 3:05:18.560 should not be bearing the full weight of what occurred. 3:05:18.879 --> 3:05:21.440 While you know, Jack is serving a life sentence. I 3:05:21.640 --> 3:05:23.440 think he should have one or two or three more 3:05:24.040 --> 3:05:27.160 for his role in this. I mean heats youth and 3:05:27.280 --> 3:05:30.360 heats brain damage. Because of that, sexual abuse should have 3:05:30.600 --> 3:05:33.200 and now should be considered. And we just hope the 3:05:33.280 --> 3:05:36.640 governor will Yeah, yeah, hopefully so. And again, if you 3:05:36.640 --> 3:05:40.160 want to learn more, there's Heath stocks dot info. Um, 3:05:40.720 --> 3:05:43.520 there's a lot of good about Jack Walls on there 3:05:43.600 --> 3:05:46.360 as well. UM, and you can there's a link to 3:05:46.400 --> 3:05:51.119 make a donation to Heath's defense. Um. Alright, well, Michael, 3:05:51.160 --> 3:05:53.400 thank you so much for coming on today. UM, and 3:05:53.520 --> 3:05:55.320 I hope you have a good rest of your week. 3:05:56.120 --> 3:06:10.400 Now's well, yeah, hey, we'll be back Monday with more 3:06:10.480 --> 3:06:13.120 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 3:06:13.200 --> 3:06:15.920 the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of 3:06:15.959 --> 3:06:18.879 cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool zone Media, 3:06:19.000 --> 3:06:21.440 visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 3:06:21.520 --> 3:06:23.800 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 3:06:23.879 --> 3:06:26.879 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 3:06:26.920 --> 3:06:29.480 for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 3:06:29.520 --> 3:06:32.240 media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.