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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. What's What's? What's? I'm Robert Evans,

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Speaker 1: this is it could happen here the show that asks

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Speaker 1: what's and also other questions, um more, more more meaningful

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Speaker 1: questions than that about you know, things falling apart, fixing them,

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Speaker 1: all that good stuff with me today as usual Garrison

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Speaker 1: and Chris and as is currently unusual, but will be

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Speaker 1: more usual every preceding month after this one. Our good

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Speaker 1: friend st Andrew. St Andrew quite about but that's fine.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing today, Andrew? I'm good. I'm good.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's rainy, it's chill. It's better than the

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Speaker 1: kind of hot weather we've been getting lately, so I'm good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's raining and chill here, but that's seven months of

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Speaker 1: the year. Uh, I think there's slightly different uh climates

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Speaker 1: in Portland, Oregon and Trinidad, probably I've been told. Um,

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Speaker 1: so we have had you on a couple of weeks

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Speaker 1: back to talk about solar punk, and we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: bringing you back on about twice a month to talk about, um,

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Speaker 1: whatever the hell you want to talk about. And so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to now hand the episode over to you,

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Speaker 1: um and trust like a little lamb that you'll lead

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Speaker 1: me somewhere beautiful and filled with good forage. Yes, sunshine, rainbows,

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Speaker 1: the promised Latin. Yeah. Okay, So I think we've all

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Speaker 1: noticed that the environmental this movement kind of sucks jumping

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Speaker 1: into it, has not done the things that has not accomplished,

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Speaker 1: has been around for like over half a century or

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Speaker 1: actually really more than that, and you know, where are

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Speaker 1: we now? You know? Um, of course we do have

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Speaker 1: to confront and acknowledge that, like there's the s C

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Speaker 1: where oil company has literally suppressed a whole bunch of

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Speaker 1: information and you know, co opted like a lot of

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Speaker 1: the earlier movements and stuff. But we've kind of known

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Speaker 1: for a while now and we are still here. So

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Speaker 1: it's like what gives you know, Um, I think there's

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Speaker 1: kind of an interesting phenomenon that I wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: about today, um, known as soft climate change denial. So

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Speaker 1: are you're familiar with that or what you're thinking is

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Speaker 1: based on foot impressions? Um, I mean, yeah, I've heard

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Speaker 1: the term. I would think it's sort of Um, I

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Speaker 1: mean a number of different things, including the idea that like,

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Speaker 1: well there's nothing we can do, so nothing should be done,

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Speaker 1: you know, m hmm, yeah, what what whatous your garrison? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Most most of my understanding of the term is like

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Speaker 1: someone like saying they like, know, the climate change is

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Speaker 1: the thing, Like they recognize that, but they are kind

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Speaker 1: of more in denial of what solutions can be done

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Speaker 1: to really change anything. That's generally understanding of the term.

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Speaker 1: When I see it like online or something, Yeah, what

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Speaker 1: about your Chris, Yeah, I usually see it. It's it's

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Speaker 1: like it's usually in the context of people, you know,

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Speaker 1: it can in the US there's the whole um. There's

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Speaker 1: whole political factions whose entire thing is saying, like, we

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Speaker 1: believe in science, and then they'll go talk about like

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Speaker 1: how much they believe in climate change, and then two

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Speaker 1: seconds later and around are like signings. Yeah, so that

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Speaker 1: That's that's my understanding of it, right. Yeah. So, according

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Speaker 1: to everyone's favorite source, um, Wikipedia, self climate change denial

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Speaker 1: is a state of mind acknowledging the existence of global

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Speaker 1: women in the abstract what remaining to some extent, impartial

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Speaker 1: psychological or intellectuals to nihilism about its reality or impact.

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Speaker 1: And something I was spoken about in my channel in

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Speaker 1: my most recent video where I was talking with the

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Speaker 1: different facets of sula punk. You know what sula punk is,

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Speaker 1: what it needs, um, things that probably potentially drag down

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Speaker 1: the sula punk movement. I think that people have been

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Speaker 1: using to try to drag it down, because so the

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Speaker 1: punk is kind of building in popularity, and with anything

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Speaker 1: that builds in popularity, there are attempts from all sorts

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Speaker 1: of angles to co opt it and to repackage it

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Speaker 1: and com modify it and all those things. So I've

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Speaker 1: kind of noticed with the sugar punk phenomenon that there's

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Speaker 1: this effort by people who profess to care about the

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Speaker 1: climates and stuff to try to push it away from

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Speaker 1: more radical directions towards something more appealing and appeasing to

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Speaker 1: the status school into the system UM And I mean,

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Speaker 1: according to the wikipia definition. You know, it's they call

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Speaker 1: it a state of mind. I think it's also like

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Speaker 1: an implicit philosophy that undergodes like entire groups and entire movements.

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Speaker 1: You know, so like, for example, obviously you know in

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Speaker 1: affects individuals, where you know, people will um miscalculated it's

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Speaker 1: risks and think that climb climate change is just extra

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Speaker 1: storms or something. But then they also, like people are

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Speaker 1: really the movements that would neglect its urgency with just

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Speaker 1: these platitudes and these um direction less actions that just

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Speaker 1: serve like this kind of middling reformism. Um, they underestimate

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Speaker 1: the extent of social change required to like mitigate climate change,

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Speaker 1: so basically don't seek to change it's out of school,

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Speaker 1: but just to sort of tweak it ever so slightly

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Speaker 1: to like capitalism with a carbon tax or something. Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then of course the people who kind of straddle

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Speaker 1: that that fence, or maybe it's more of a spectrum

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Speaker 1: between soft climate change Nile and hardclim change Nile, where

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Speaker 1: they might overestimate the extent of scientific uncertainty, so they

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Speaker 1: might think that oh well, you know, um, yeah, colob

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Speaker 1: warming is happening, but we don't exactly know how much

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Speaker 1: it's going to change the climate or how much it's

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Speaker 1: impacting our lives and that kind of thing. So they

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Speaker 1: basically turn it into something that's still up for debate,

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Speaker 1: you know. And that's why I say it kind of

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Speaker 1: straddles that line between soft line and hardline, because obviously

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Speaker 1: the hard climb change nihilists, they're just like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know it doesn't exist, or if it does exist,

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Speaker 1: humans don't cause it. If you and still cool it,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing we can do that kind of thing. Have

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Speaker 1: you all had like experiences with soft climbs nio like,

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Speaker 1: and you wouldn't place no organizing? Oh yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would say, so I've encountered. Um. I mean it's kind

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Speaker 1: of a thing you encounter constantly in American politics because

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Speaker 1: it's it's really like often times your best option, uh,

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Speaker 1: in terms of like it's that or the people who

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Speaker 1: say that talking about climate change is socialism. Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I was in verminal Studies mature for most of

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Speaker 1: college and then I decided not to do it, and

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Speaker 1: then I got like a minor instead because like one

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Speaker 1: class often look long story, but you know, it was

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Speaker 1: interesting seeing it there because like you know, there there

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Speaker 1: were basically like two possible reactions to learning that one

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Speaker 1: was like people who you know, one way, you get

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Speaker 1: incredibly depressed and that's what I did. Or and then

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Speaker 1: that's the second one was people would you know and

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Speaker 1: these people who like actually you know, you know, I

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Speaker 1: mean these abio studies madeas right, like these people have

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time studying this stuff, and they

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Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't know. This is almost like

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Speaker 1: like this kind of intellectual retreat where you could see

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Speaker 1: people business just like convincing themselves that like somehow this

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Speaker 1: would be okay, and they'd like I don't know, people

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Speaker 1: would just get like completely obsessed with like electoral maps

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Speaker 1: and you're like no, no no, no, no, no no, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: if if if we went exactly this number of seats

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Speaker 1: in this year, then like we can we can start

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Speaker 1: doing carbon credits or like, I don't know, it was

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Speaker 1: it was. It's really interesting to watch because it was

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Speaker 1: like it was it was I mean, because like I

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Speaker 1: think I think that there's there's like there's very there's

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Speaker 1: bad faith versions of it, and then I think there's

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Speaker 1: also versions of it that are just sort of like

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Speaker 1: people do not want to accept yeah, like the what's

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Speaker 1: necessary to stop this? And so they sort of like

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Speaker 1: that I can't even really like think about what's necessary

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Speaker 1: because because of how the education system works. And trust

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Speaker 1: I could go on like long runs about education system.

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Speaker 1: It really it really really, um it really limits people's

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Speaker 1: ability to think outside of like this very very strict

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Speaker 1: box of possibilities because you know, so much just left

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Speaker 1: out of UM for example, history classes and soone just

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Speaker 1: left out of um really all the subjects. There's this

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Speaker 1: very clear ideology that you're expected to come out of

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Speaker 1: the education system with. And so even when you reach

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Speaker 1: academia and high education and stuff, you're still stuck with

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Speaker 1: that mode of thinking. And even as you're presented with

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Speaker 1: all this new information, because your brain currentally like handle

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Speaker 1: like the great extent of what climate change is, you know,

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Speaker 1: it kind of retreats into this sort of simple kind

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Speaker 1: of Oh, we just need to vote, because voting is

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Speaker 1: all I know, voting is all the tools to do.

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Speaker 1: Voting is politics, and politics is voting. That's the extent

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Speaker 1: of it, right, Yeah, It's like this weird form of

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Speaker 1: self preservation that people need to do in order to

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Speaker 1: kind of like keep their keep them from in their mind,

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Speaker 1: you know, like spiraling out of control, because this is

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Speaker 1: the only thing that you know, they have. They need

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Speaker 1: to focus on their own life right now and their

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Speaker 1: own current problems. And if they think about this because

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Speaker 1: this like large looming threat too much, it just freaks

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Speaker 1: you out right. And you have in order to keep

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Speaker 1: or to just keep going on with your life. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people like segment off this type of thing

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Speaker 1: in their own brain so that you know, manifests in

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases, and this kind of soft denial

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Speaker 1: so that you can just keep on going. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I see with with friends, and I see with

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Speaker 1: the family. You know, obviously they are the handful of

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Speaker 1: people who still, at least in my experience, we still

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Speaker 1: deny climate change. But there's like a bigger portion of

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Speaker 1: people who's whole understanding climate change is just this or

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Speaker 1: what we just need to recycle and we just need

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Speaker 1: to like switch to electric vehicles and once we do that,

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Speaker 1: you know we'll be okay. Um, which is tweak a

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Speaker 1: couple of things, get some solar panels and yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: the understanding of it has been completely limited to like

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Speaker 1: this very restricted conversation that is like um basically cultivated

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Speaker 1: by certain interest groups and certain um lobbying groups and

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing. You know, Yeah, the only a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of change is allowed, and that's what we're

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Speaker 1: allowed to think. So that's what we're like shown for

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Speaker 1: examples of in like media and pop culture or whatever. Right,

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Speaker 1: So this is you know, this is kind of what

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Speaker 1: you know, like all of the YouTubers who got money

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Speaker 1: from Bill Gates when Bill Gates wrote his climate book, right,

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Speaker 1: all of the things that they were talking about. It's like,

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Speaker 1: it's like this kind of stuff because the only way

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Speaker 1: for Bill Gates to keep his money well you know,

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Speaker 1: talking about climate change is to have these kind of

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Speaker 1: half assed like solutions that are actually deny the impending

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Speaker 1: reality and deny that. No, the only way to actually

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Speaker 1: fix it is by taking all his money, um, which

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Speaker 1: he's not as big a fan of. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: have you all seen the Cuska sucked video on climate

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Speaker 1: change and economy? Coming want climate change socks in a nutshell?

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Speaker 1: It's like this like that, so people can find it,

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Speaker 1: but people will I think people people know. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot a lot of people know what it is.

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Speaker 1: Or you can just search in a nutshell on YouTube.

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Speaker 1: It's key you are. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try.

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Speaker 1: You are. No, it's ku r g was it ku

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Speaker 1: r z? I think it's ku r z g E

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Speaker 1: s A A G t A Right, it is, it is.

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Speaker 1: It is a weird one. But what what what are

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Speaker 1: you talking about? The can you fix Climate change? Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where the whole thesis is basically vote with your ballots

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Speaker 1: and vote with your wallet. Yeah, that's the only thing

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Speaker 1: that you're really allowed, right, Yeah, And I believe this

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Speaker 1: is one of the videos sponsored by they put this, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they did. It was and then they had this whole

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Speaker 1: line about some people think we need to change like

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Speaker 1: our system from climate ch from from capitalism, but we're

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Speaker 1: not so sure about that. We don't know the answer.

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Speaker 1: So it's just been like shrug towards maybe system, it's

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Speaker 1: from with the system. But they basically gave it no attention.

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Speaker 1: You know. But their channel is literally about like quite

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Speaker 1: deep into research about things, So it's very obvious that

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Speaker 1: if they spent no time like doing any kind of

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Speaker 1: research into like why people have the system and critique

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Speaker 1: that obviously Bill Kate's hand is very deep in their pockets.

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Speaker 1: You know, because I believe that I believe the researchers

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Speaker 1: actually kind of that, but they're not. They just can't

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Speaker 1: say yeah, and I mean like, yeah, I think they're

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Speaker 1: making the bargain a lot of people make where they're like, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: if we can push for you know, the immediate necessary changes,

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Speaker 1: we can worry about, you know, stuff like that later on.

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Speaker 1: It's it's just important to get something done, um, and

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Speaker 1: so we'll compromise and will not will not call for

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Speaker 1: what we know is actually necessary to deal with the problem.

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Speaker 1: We'll just we'll just go with a half measure because

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Speaker 1: at least it's something we've got to do something now. Right.

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Speaker 1: The thing that's always been very grim about that to

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Speaker 1: me is like you look about how how that plays out, right,

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Speaker 1: And it's always like, well, okay, so our our half

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Speaker 1: measure is gonna be we're gonna we're gonna just like

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Speaker 1: put put put a monetary value on indigenous forests so

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Speaker 1: that governments can like steal them and get paid for

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Speaker 1: taking the land. And it's never stuff like why don't

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Speaker 1: we like make more marshes, which is you know, if

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Speaker 1: if you're gonna talk about stuff that like could actually

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Speaker 1: be done, right, It's like, okay, well look but what

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Speaker 1: do re marshing do we? What? Like? That's that that

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Speaker 1: stuff like is easy and doesn't need you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't literally have to overthrow capitalism to get people to

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Speaker 1: like restore marshes. But it never happens because this that's

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Speaker 1: you know, the whole basis of the sort of soft

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Speaker 1: denialism stuff is not actually you know, it's not actually

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Speaker 1: the type of solve climate change. They just want to

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Speaker 1: make money and it's extremely grim. Yeah. Yeah, there's this

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Speaker 1: video that the storyteller is this YouTuber Um he did

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Speaker 1: recently on co opting movements, and he was explaining that, um,

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Speaker 1: with the March in Washington right during the Civil rights movement, Um,

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Speaker 1: that was an organic movement that you know, the people

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Speaker 1: had come up with, right, but obviously a mass movement. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: FI isn't gonna just sit back and let that happen, right,

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Speaker 1: So they brought in these leaders. Um they're called the

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Speaker 1: Big Six, and um, the story teller was explaining that

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Speaker 1: basically they were paid to co opt the march to

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Speaker 1: basically become its figureheads and its leaders. They hadn't organized

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Speaker 1: it themselves, but they came on afterwards and became the

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Speaker 1: leaders of the march and read the speeches that they

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Speaker 1: were supposed to read, that kind of thing, and so

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Speaker 1: that sort of mass movement was basically defound like that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, obviously reforms were made and you know, Civil

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Speaker 1: Rights Act was passed. But then, you know, after all

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Speaker 1: that happened, and MLK got disillusioned by the system as

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Speaker 1: a whole and wanted to start pushing even harder against

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Speaker 1: capitalism and whatnot. That's when well, coincidentally, he got a bullet,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I think it's interesting that these movements

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Speaker 1: they're able, they're they're comfortable with these movements up to

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Speaker 1: a certain point. Um, and comfortable easily is going these

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Speaker 1: sitting directions as to a certain point. But then when

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Speaker 1: you actually start poising a threat to this out of school,

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Speaker 1: that's when you know, you become a problem in like community.

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Speaker 1: Not to see that, Okay, it wasn't a threat to

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Speaker 1: this out of school, but just to say that, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: there was. They have certain limits that they don't want

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Speaker 1: people to cross. Yeah, Capitalism one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: that makes it such a robust system in terms of

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Speaker 1: its ability to to not get overthrown or destroyed? Is

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Speaker 1: that up to a certain point. It loves dissent, It

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Speaker 1: loves anti capitalism because you can market that very easily.

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Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of money in in in anti capitalism,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of money and being critical of the system.

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Speaker 1: It's just when you hit a certain point, um, then

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Speaker 1: it then it becomes you know, the CIA or the

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Speaker 1: FBI or some person who's been um convinced to shoot

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Speaker 1: use problem like it. There's a there's a point at

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Speaker 1: which uh, that's no longer accepted, but quite a bit

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Speaker 1: of criticism and even like agitation to change or end

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Speaker 1: the system can be accepted because it's monetize herbal and

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Speaker 1: speaking of that, you know what time it is? Time

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Speaker 1: for a serious absolutely is oh boy, time for an

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Speaker 1: ad or or that's the CIA at the door. We

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Speaker 1: won't know until we come back from break. Ah, we're back.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the CIA this time. Good news, guys, thankfully.

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Speaker 1: I mean the fact that they flew all the way

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Speaker 1: down just to meet me. I'm on it, honestly. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I mean they've come to trend a dad for less.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's true. Yeah, yeah, But like we were saying, right,

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Speaker 1: there's this whole issue of these movements being able to

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Speaker 1: go in a certain direction, but only up to a

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Speaker 1: certain point. Um. And I think it's something that Peter

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Speaker 1: Gallus also talks about in how non violence protects the state,

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Speaker 1: in the sense of, you know, these people are able

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Speaker 1: to once they get a certain level of attention, all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, you know, you're invited to speak of

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Speaker 1: these events, and you're invited to go this place and that,

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Speaker 1: and you basically get consumed into the workshop machine, the

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Speaker 1: angio machine, and the climate conference machine kind of things.

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Speaker 1: So you end up with all these figures, these organizers,

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Speaker 1: these activists who go from like generally trying to organize

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Speaker 1: their communities and their spaces, and then before you know it,

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Speaker 1: they're like at such and such a conference because well,

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Speaker 1: they think it's an opportunity to actually make like a

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Speaker 1: bigger change. But in reality, you know, they just there

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Speaker 1: too be defound. You know. Like, for example, who mainly

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Speaker 1: comes to mind is like Greta Thunberg. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: haven't looked at deeply into her past or anything. Um.

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Speaker 1: I know they are certain right wingers who are very

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Speaker 1: obsessed with her, but I know that she recently said

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Speaker 1: that she's kind of done with politicians. UM. Because when

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Speaker 1: you think of how she basically came up, you know,

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Speaker 1: right exactly, think what how she basically came up. It

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Speaker 1: was like she is talking at these events and you know,

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Speaker 1: people are in fighting out the things because you know,

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Speaker 1: look at look at this cute little google UM yelling

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Speaker 1: about climate change, right, and she basically becomes this spectacle,

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Speaker 1: you know, and that spectacle is entertained up to the

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Speaker 1: point people make big event out of her, you know,

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Speaker 1: like breaking down in front of these positions and stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you know what, they just go right back to normal. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think it was copy was like last week or

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Speaker 1: the week before UM and representatives from representative I think

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Speaker 1: the Prime Minister of Barbados was there and she had this,

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Speaker 1: you know, a great speech about how the global nothings

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Speaker 1: do more for you know, these countries and Goloble South

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Speaker 1: because you know they have responsibility. That kind of thing. Cool. Um.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, you know there's like developments

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Speaker 1: going on Barbados too, you know, basically bring in more

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Speaker 1: tourists and to bring in more um and like you know,

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Speaker 1: resorts building and that kind of thing that basically add

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Speaker 1: to the UM emissions and add to the UM negative

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Speaker 1: impact in the environment. You know, same thing with like

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Speaker 1: Trn's government, you know, like representatives that would went to Copy,

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Speaker 1: including the Prime Minister, and you know they're all about

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Speaker 1: things changing and you know, the climate movement um and

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Speaker 1: the climate change being real and the actions need to

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Speaker 1: be taken. And then like this didn't make it in

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Speaker 1: like like mainstream news of course, but in local news.

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Speaker 1: Basically right after primester tryan to veagle dos Keith Rowley,

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Speaker 1: he went and met up with like Shell. Yeah, like

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Speaker 1: representatives at Shell to like basically bring the country and

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Speaker 1: the company closer together, you know, um, because you know

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Speaker 1: not is reliant and oil and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So obviously these sort of leaders and these sorts of movements,

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Speaker 1: they only go up to a certain point. And even then,

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Speaker 1: so much of it is just this performance yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this um act. Basically I'll be I'm putting together a

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Speaker 1: thing on copies six right now, UM because I think

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Speaker 1: it actually it does demonstrate a lot of the soft

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Speaker 1: denial stuff that you're talking about. Like the biggest thing

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Speaker 1: to come out of COP twenty six in terms of

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Speaker 1: like actual deals is just uh progress on carbon markets

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Speaker 1: and carbon offset credits. That's there. That's really the only

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Speaker 1: thing we actually got. Um. And they say, but not

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Speaker 1: not like us, but like you know, the people in charge,

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Speaker 1: they they got this and and the the the quote

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Speaker 1: they gave was that the being able to buy carbon

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Speaker 1: offset credits, meaning that like you don't actually make emissions differences.

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Speaker 1: So they staid, you you buy pretend emissions differences from

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Speaker 1: other countries that actually did make changes, um, so that

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Speaker 1: you don't get penalized. So that's it's buying the credits far.

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Speaker 1: But they said, they said, buying the credits can potentially

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Speaker 1: unlock trillions of dollars for protecting trees, expanding renewable energy,

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Speaker 1: and other pludgets a combat climate change. It's it's like,

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Speaker 1: don't climate credits. It's like, um, it's the same as

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Speaker 1: saying like, hail Mary's because you sinned and you went

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Speaker 1: to your priest and confessed. It's like, I've I've I've

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Speaker 1: done bad things to the environment. Tell me like how

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Speaker 1: many times I need to go through this ritual in

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Speaker 1: order to in order to cleanse myself of having compen

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Speaker 1: into the atmosphere. Exactly. I think it's bleaker than that

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, like it's it's, it's, it's, it's,

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Speaker 1: it's it's really it's the climate version of like the

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Speaker 1: World Wildlife Fund having death squads. Okay, now, Chris, you

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Speaker 1: are a very anti death squad, and I think we

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Speaker 1: need to deal with that at some point because hashtag

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Speaker 1: not all death squads. Yes, my mother will need to

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Speaker 1: be able to account for by strong anti death squad stance.

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Speaker 1: This is a yeah, you say that now, but you're

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Speaker 1: gonna get a death squad to fight the death squads,

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Speaker 1: and then where are you be going to be? Sea?

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Speaker 1: But you get they get a death squad to fight

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Speaker 1: your death squad, and then it's just like they can't

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Speaker 1: sel each other out, and then you have to get

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Speaker 1: another death squad, and then Marxist lendinis um. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a number of other things too, to be fair to Marxism.

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Speaker 1: Another thing that might make you kind of question the

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Speaker 1: integrity of CUT is that there were more delegates at

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Speaker 1: Cup six from fossil field companies than there were from

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Speaker 1: any individual nation. That makes sense, But then right, that's

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Speaker 1: like another thing, right, because you're talking about six and

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Speaker 1: we have soft climate change denil gets into that, But

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Speaker 1: I don't think. I think seft FIM change denial can

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Speaker 1: only be applied so far when it comes to those

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Speaker 1: sorts of big spectacles and those big major events. Because

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Speaker 1: even if they themselves really truly understand the depths of

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Speaker 1: climate change and trust and believe like these wild barns

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Speaker 1: and stuff, they knew, like they have all the infull

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Speaker 1: right present front of them. They've done they're already done there,

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Speaker 1: like cost benefit analyses and like risk assessments and kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, so they know exactly like what the impact

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Speaker 1: is going to be. They have the money to have

426
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: access to the scientists, right, But it's not soft clime

427
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: change denial for them. It's I'm a capitalist. I'm going

428
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: to do what a capitalist does. You know, it's ultimately

429
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: a funct Wait, they're operating within a system, you know,

430
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: so soft time changenial um it is like sort of

431
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: a psychological phenomenon. But we also to keep in mind

432
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: the day is also like a structural component to it.

433
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: See that even if they're a person does not face

434
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: self clanis change. Now it's an experiencing self clans change

435
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: denial that alone, even if they're like fully confront the

436
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 1: sue that's just an individual, you know, and there's still

437
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: like a whole structure around that individual that will still

438
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,959
Speaker 1: incentivize certain behavior. And then of course with the incentives

439
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 1: of certain behavior comes like the psychological justifications for that behavior.

440
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 1: So it kind of almost becomes at the end of

441
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: justifying themselves into selft climate change denile, you know what

442
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 1: I mean. So it's kind of like it's like a

443
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: fluid that it's like a feedback loop that reinforces its

444
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: own existence. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean I think that honestly,

445
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: like the feedback loop model is where we have a

446
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: lot of our problems with the climate change are they're

447
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: all very much linked to the feedback loop model of

448
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 1: things trying to justify their own existence. And then you know,

449
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: certain and then on the reverse side of things, you know,

450
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: when certain changes in the climate happen, those create their

451
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: own feedback loops which create more changes to happen. It's

452
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: like everything everything one one massive loop. Yeah. Shall I

453
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,400
Speaker 1: gets me to like there's the discourse around climate change

454
00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: and stuff is like halted and divoted and immobilized you know,

455
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: by soft climate change denial. You know, discussions are the

456
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,959
Speaker 1: very real, very current very near future and very violent

457
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 1: impacts of climate change just basically softened, like like you

458
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: know when you try to throw a punch in a dream. Yeah,

459
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: like you're trying to like push, and then it's like,

460
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: you know, it's like this kind of soft um or

461
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: like you throw something in space. I guess it's just

462
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: you put all this effort into it and then you

463
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: go in another direction that kind of thing. Um, I

464
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm going with this analogy, so I'll

465
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: just keep on going. Um. Basically that there's an issue

466
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: with the conversation, with the discourse has just been you know,

467
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: harmed by the psychological phenomenon. But of course there's the

468
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: other side of psychological phenomenon of soft clim engine nial,

469
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: not the hard climngine genial side, but rather the I'm

470
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: so on the opposite end of soft clian chine nil

471
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: that I'm like an inconsolable and like illogical and I

472
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: can't even imagine the possibility of anything happening kind of yeah. Yeah,

473
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: the kind of the kind of extreme dumerism where you

474
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: you recognize how you organize that climtage is bad, um,

475
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: but then you you see it as such a massive

476
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: overwhelming thing that basically shuts you down from be able

477
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: to do anything else, and you just like, exactly, there's

478
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,640
Speaker 1: really no point to do anything if it's going to

479
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: be this bad. There's really no one's you know, it's

480
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: such a hard capitalism and the systems that are working

481
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: to keep it going or such a hard thing to

482
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: overcome that it seems like the best thing to do

483
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: is just sit down and do nothing. Yeah, and that's

484
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 1: the thing, right, Like these are slash collapse people, right, Um.

485
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 1: I mean I appreciate that they don't shy away from

486
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: like the really difficult stuff, and they also stumble into

487
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: this kind of like coop that's dumorism, Like it's dramatic

488
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: kind of we are screwed, We're all going to be

489
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: fight saying this mad Max style arena. Like that's not

490
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: how you know Climbine is going to play. You know,

491
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: it's not a movie. You know, like things are going

492
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: to break down in certain places and other places are

493
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: gonna locked down in sutain ways, but it's not going

494
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: to be like this Suddain global devolution into madness like that.

495
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: You know, that's not really how social change that's already

496
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,719
Speaker 1: how collapses have you know, functional history. You know, of

497
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: course we live in a like a global civilization, and

498
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,719
Speaker 1: previous collapses have been fairly localized. But still, you know,

499
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: climate change is both global and local, so there are

500
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: certain changes it will only affects it in localities. This

501
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: is something that actually the book Desert addresses fairly well,

502
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: and I find it frustra from yeah, yeah, because I

503
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: find really frustrating because, especially on the online left, there's

504
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: people who treat desert like the gospel, or at least

505
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: they say they do, but they're actually extreme doomers who

506
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: fetishize collapse, um, and they're like, oh, everything is hopeless.

507
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: Read desert but then you but then, but desert is

508
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: like explicitly anti collapse. Same collapse isn't gonna happen. Collapse

509
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: is a fantasy you tell yourself to keep you going.

510
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: And for this kind haven't heard of desert. Desert is

511
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: a book that's available for free online about what's coming um.

512
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: It's titled Desert because of an old quote about how

513
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: empires um leave nothing but deserts in their wake. Basically

514
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: like that's it's it's just like a thing that that empire.

515
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: I think the exact quote is like empires make a

516
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: desert and call it peace. Um. And it's it's basically

517
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: discussing the fact like not just literal desertification, but like, um,

518
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: that that's more of a more of a better picture

519
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: of like our future under climate change than kind of

520
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: these these mad max dreams this like slow dissolution of

521
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: resources and uh environments. Um. And that that's kind of

522
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: the Yeah, it's a it's a good book. You can

523
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: read it yourself, and it's it's quite influential online. Um.

524
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, as as Garrison pointed out, there are people

525
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: who kind of take it in a in a direction

526
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: that I don't believe the authors. I mean clearly the

527
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 1: authors didn't mean, because they directly called out that kind

528
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: of thinking. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like some people

529
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: treat like collapse and stuff as basically the secular version

530
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: of like revelation in the Bible. Yeah yeah, or it's

531
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: or it's like the non markets version of like the revolution.

532
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: It's like it's like this this kind of mythical event

533
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: to like prepare for and almost be excited for, but

534
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: like it's it's fake, it's a fantasy. It's it's something

535
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: we tell ourselves to keep ourselves going as things are bad,

536
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: but it's not it's it's not real. Yeah, like any

537
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: d you know, the trumpets will sound in the heavens

538
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: and the screws will be broken, and the great, the

539
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: great beast will arise from the sea and you know

540
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: all that fame. Yeah, And I I don't know what

541
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: the solution is for that. I I don't know how

542
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: both on the soft climate denial side of like, how

543
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 1: do you go about? How do you go about It's

544
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 1: like the only thing we can really do is the people,

545
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, we know, how how do we go about

546
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: and tell them that, hey, things are probably gonna be

547
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: a bit worse and which you're preparing for um, And

548
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: how do we tell the people who are doomers, Hey,

549
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be like this weird dystopian thing that

550
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: you're thinking of. Either, it's like it's it's it's interesting

551
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: because like they're both veering off in two opposite directions,

552
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: but it both kind of leads to the same point

553
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: of kind of doing nothing. But one version. One version

554
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: of nothing is basically you know, voting for stuff that's

555
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: not that's never gonna happen. The other version is not

556
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: just not doing anything in general. Um, And I I

557
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: don't know how to how to reach those types of

558
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: people very easily. Yeah, which kind of brings me to

559
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: like my thoughts on like how we move past soft

560
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: climate gene nil Um. I don't think it's just a

561
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: matter of like trying to like push like campaigns on people.

562
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be like a very personal sort

563
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: of journey that each person has to go through, right,

564
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: because each wisnes is different. Each wisnes is like has

565
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,959
Speaker 1: different worries and dealing things in a different way, you know. Um,

566
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: So like you want to keep in mind like people's

567
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: mental health and sort of fortifying your mental health and

568
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: helping people fortified days. Because when it comes to mental

569
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: health with regard to like climate change, doing it an

570
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: isolation in my experience has not really worked out. I

571
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: think what has worked best for me is when I

572
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 1: am with why I am connected with a group of

573
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: people or even just one other person, and when I'm

574
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 1: feeling down about climate change. Because despite all my messages

575
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: about sula punk and you know, we can do this

576
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: like that that's basically the message of my YouTube channel.

577
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,800
Speaker 1: You know, I still experience like those sort of thoughts

578
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: and feelings public about it. But what I try to

579
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: do is when I'm feeling those things, I try to

580
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: be with people who are not currently feeding that, you know,

581
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: so we're not feeding all of each other's next of energies. Yeah,

582
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: so like when I'm in a bad spot, you know,

583
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: people are on who could lift me up, and when

584
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: they about d and about spot because it kind of

585
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: comes and weaves, you know, yeah, absolutely, no, Yeah, it's

586
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: it's it's silly to deny those thoughts exist because they do.

587
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: Like they're they're very they're a very easy neutral state

588
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: at least for me to slip into um. And the

589
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: way to get around that is by doing chores at

590
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: a farm and shoveling poop and taking care of animals

591
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: and cooking for people. That's like the way that I

592
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 1: get out of that kind of mindset. And you know,

593
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: not not to be too hard on all of the

594
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 1: kind of doomer nihilists, because there there is there, there

595
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: is a there's this there's like a sect of like

596
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 1: doomer nihilists who use like the actual definition of nihilism,

597
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: which is like if if things don't really matter, we

598
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 1: should probably fux some stuff up, um, And that's very useful,

599
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: right like if if if you're if, if you're on

600
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: that train and you're like, yeah, you should be tree

601
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 1: spiking if if if if you're okay with if you

602
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: think nothing matters, um, and you are you want to

603
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: be an actual nihilist, then yeah you should make you

604
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: should make destroy um. Just make sure it's focused on

605
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,839
Speaker 1: the people with actual power, UM. Because if if you're

606
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: willing to do that, then great, we need we need

607
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: as many as many people like that as possible. But

608
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: it's certainly easier to do that once you have friends

609
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: and once you're not stuck in this super depressed state

610
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: all the time. Yeah, and um, I think there's a again.

611
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: We we we do take a look at like some

612
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: of the criticisms people have a the show online, And

613
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: I know one that's come up a bunch is people

614
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: will listen to like our when when we'll talk about,

615
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, the severity of the problems and then we'll

616
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: talk about things like you know, mutual aid collectives and

617
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: small guards, seed bombings and all that stuff, they'll be like, well,

618
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: that's not a solution, And no, of course that's not

619
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: going to solve the global problem of carbon emissions from

620
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: a civilization of seven billion humans. What it does do

621
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: focusing on stuff like that, focusing on building soil UM,

622
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 1: focusing on building community resistance. In addition to like having

623
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: an immediate impact on the number of people you know

624
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: in in in your community, it builds a sense of um,

625
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: a sense of power for the individual. It. It gives

626
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: you something to do that isn't just thinking about how

627
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: bad things are, and that puts you in a mind

628
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 1: state that's more useful to actually potentially dealing with the

629
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: bigger problems. At some point. UM, you have to have

630
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 1: a sense of your own agency that feels real if

631
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: you're going to actually change anything UM, and you can.

632
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: You can build it's a muscle, right. You can build

633
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: it up by by doing things that are not bigger

634
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 1: but are are part of the solution. UM. And it's

635
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 1: exactly valuable to do that for your own for your

636
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 1: own mental health, because then maybe you if you're maybe

637
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: if if if your friend group, if your your affinity group,

638
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:22,479
Speaker 1: whatever you wanna call it, the people you are hanging

639
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: out with, if some of them are always engaged in

640
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: something productive, then when you're in a doomed spiral. You

641
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: can find someone who's working on something um and vice versa. Yeah,

642
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: and it doesn't just help your mental health, but it

643
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 1: also contributes to the pre figurative activities that we need

644
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: to actually make a switch to a different system. You know,

645
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: like revolution is something that happens overnight or in a future.

646
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 1: It's something that's supposed to be happening all now because

647
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 1: as we build those systems, you know, we are building

648
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: up power. You know, it's kind of like how the

649
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: black socialst in America described to a power you know

650
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: s we have lindy systems and putting these things in

651
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: place so that we can push towards like fundamental transmission.

652
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: This system it's it's rative, but a small people build

653
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 1: on top of that, you know, that's how the transmission happens.

654
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: We all also need to contribute. I mean, I think

655
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's important to talk about this both to acknowledge,

656
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: like it's a thing that happens and we all deal with.

657
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: We all have our moments of like overwhelming despair over

658
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: what's happening, um and and at some some moments of

659
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: unrealistic optimism too. Yeah, everyone's in a while and the

660
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: unrealistic optimism needs to be encouraged UM, as long as

661
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: it's not the kind of what we don't need to

662
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: do anything because someone's I guess there's toxic optimism and

663
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: there's helpful. A toxic optimism would be like reading an

664
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,479
Speaker 1: article about some new carbon capture technology and being like, oh, cool,

665
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 1: well I don't need to worry. UM. But but most

666
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: optimism I think is positive UM. And I think it's

667
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 1: good to build a capacity for optimism by by building

668
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: your your personal sense of of agency and power, by

669
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 1: by doing ship that helps UM. And I think that

670
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: accepting that you can do things that are meaningful UM,

671
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: and that uh there are things to be done that

672
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: can help the situation is a critical way of fighting

673
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: against you know this uh soft climate change denial, which

674
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: which is a UM, a major threat because there's I think,

675
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: honestly at this point more people who are subscribing to

676
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: some form of soft climate change denial than there are

677
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: people who are uh just denying climate change and its

678
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: entirety UM. And that's I think where a lot of

679
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: the effort has to go. So I yeah, I think

680
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: this is a really important thing for people to understand

681
00:40:55,000 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: and to be vigilant against absolutely. Yeah. All right, well, Andrew,

682
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: where can the audience find you outside of me here

683
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 1: right now? Yeah? So you can find me on my

684
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: YouTube channel st Andrew's um, and you can find me

685
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: on Twitter at und School of Sture. Excellent. Well, you

686
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: can find us here where you just found us. We'll

687
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: be here tomorrow, unless this is a Friday, in which

688
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: case we'll be here on Monday. UM. I have a

689
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: have a good you know life, have a good life.

690
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 1: Take care. All right, welcome to it could happen here

691
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: a podcast about things falling apart and also sometimes about

692
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: how things have been falling apart for a while now,

693
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: and today we're gonna talk about how things were also

694
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 1: bad in falling apart in the two thousands, which a

695
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: profoundly cursed time period. And specifically we're going to talk

696
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: about I think a part of the anti war movement

697
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,719
Speaker 1: that does not get much attention, um, which is the

698
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: port militarization resistance that happened sort of two and with

699
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 1: us today to talk about this is two people who

700
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,279
Speaker 1: were part of this movement. If Juliana Newhauser hello, and

701
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: Brendan Maslaska's done. Yeah, both of whom were organizers and

702
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: activists while this was going on. Yeah, and I thank

703
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you both for being here. Yeah, thanks

704
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: for having us so. Yeah, as as I was saying

705
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: a bit in the intro, I think that this is

706
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: a part of the anti war movement that is not

707
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: very well known. I think I think a lot of

708
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: people know about the initial stuff happened in two dozen three,

709
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: and people might know about some of the stuff that

710
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 1: was happening against the war in Afghanistan but right when

711
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: it started, but I don't think most people know that

712
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: it like you know, even after Chils and three sort

713
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 1: of doesn't work, that it continues and it continues sort

714
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,960
Speaker 1: of informs that are that are very interesting, and so,

715
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: like I guess I want you to start out, I

716
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: want to ask how we sort of got from the

717
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: early part of the anti war movement into this and

718
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: how usually got involved. I would say that there's this

719
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: narrative about the women against the word Iraq, that there

720
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: is the largest protests in human history, at least at

721
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: that point. I don't know if it's still true against

722
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: the invasion, and then it didn't work and everyone kind

723
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: of went home and ended there and to a certain extent,

724
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: that's true. But like you said, the people that didn't

725
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: go home went an interesting direction. And UM so at

726
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: the time there were direct action was not as acceptable

727
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 1: as it is now. The or this movement was largely

728
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: dominated either by UM big liberal coalitions or PSL front

729
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: groups that were basically indistinguishable and what they actually did,

730
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,760
Speaker 1: which was basically nothing and in the best of cases

731
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: and in the worst of cases, kind of insurgency. UM.

732
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: But then there were small groups of people that at

733
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: when we saw that it didn't work, and we saw

734
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: that these giant, peaceful marches from one part of town

735
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: to another UM or voting for John Kerry or whatever,

736
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: it didn't work, that we started to look for other options. Yeah,

737
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, I got involved, you know, i'd

738
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 1: say with the anti war movement. That idea of how

739
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: Warson just was really taught to me from a very

740
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: young age. I mean, my parents were you know, children

741
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,279
Speaker 1: of the sixties, and they had family members fighting in

742
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: Vietnam and um, you know, friends dying in Vietnam and

743
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: we're against the protests back then. So I grew up

744
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,200
Speaker 1: hearing these stories and of course stories from family members,

745
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: particularly one of my grandfather's. Both of them, we were

746
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: veterans in World War Two. One of them was a

747
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,439
Speaker 1: marine and the you know, in the Pacific theater and

748
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: still into his seventies, eighties and nineties until his final days,

749
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 1: was just dealing with horrific PTSD and had always taught

750
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 1: me from a young age never to get involved. So

751
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,359
Speaker 1: I you know, and I remember when when the very

752
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,359
Speaker 1: clearly um, you know, I'm sure it's on everyone's minds now,

753
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: and when the invasion of Afghanistan started, when the invasion

754
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: of a Rock started, I was at that that massive

755
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: demonstration in Washington, d C. That Juliana just mentioned, and

756
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: you know I ended up. I'm from Utica, New York,

757
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: and went to a rural high school wool uh just

758
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: outside of of Utica, you know, russ Bell generally speaking,

759
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 1: impoverished and also very conservative area of New York. And

760
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, I had the recruiters bothering me, military recruiters

761
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: in high school, recruiting my friends, and they were just

762
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: everywhere in the hallways. Uh So it was very present,

763
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,879
Speaker 1: um with me. When I was younger, I moved out

764
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 1: to Olympia, Washington two thousand six, and that's one a

765
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: new student activist group, Students for Democratic Society, was launched.

766
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 1: That's how Juliana and I first met. We were both

767
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: in separate chapters of that new organization in the Pacific Northwest,

768
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:49,839
Speaker 1: and the port protests started just just a few months

769
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: after I moved out there in in Olympia in two

770
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: thousand six. So wait, just declare for this for a second,

771
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: because I've never quite been clear on this history. So

772
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 1: there was a second SD, like Students for Democratic this

773
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 1: idea that was like unrelated to the first one. Yeah,

774
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 1: that they're born briefly um at the end of the

775
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: bushop manaster. That that explains a lot of things that

776
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: it's very baffling. We're not that old. Yeah, we're definitely

777
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: in the in the second uh, you know, the rebirth

778
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: of it um. So you know, I think it it

779
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 1: took on some things in spirit um you know, but

780
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: also was i'd say different in many ways, and it

781
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: was very active to me at least, it was very

782
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: exciting to be a member of the new STS because

783
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 1: they're over a dozen chapters in the Pacific Northwest and

784
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 1: it was a great way to connect with young activists

785
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: all over the US. So STS is emerging in this

786
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: time period. One of the other things I was interested

787
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: about is something something you were talking about in the

788
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 1: in the in the early part of this, which has

789
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: to do with the way that these giants, both the

790
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: sort of Answer Coalition PSL Frank Group and I guess

791
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: the I s O was still around back then co

792
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 1: Asians work versus how like anything else worked on. So

793
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: so what was was s T sort of like consciously

794
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: set up and in opposition to those groups? I don't

795
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: think it was conscious, but there was just like I

796
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: mean these days, I mean like there's a lot of

797
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 1: controversy around PSL with like anarchist versus tanky politics, None

798
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 1: of that mattered at that time, Like, none of that mattered.

799
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,839
Speaker 1: The only thing that mattered was the answer, which is

800
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: the ps O Front group was completely fucking useless. Like

801
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: they completely indistinguishable from any peace police um liberal Democratic

802
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: Front group. There was literally no difference just in terms

803
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: of their aesthetics. Maybe like is there a donkey or

804
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: a hammer and sickle on something. That's the only difference

805
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: we saw. So I don't I don't think there was.

806
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: It wasn't There wasn't like a conscious like political opposite

807
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 1: attention to it. It was just like they're not doing anything,

808
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: and and so we had to look in another direction. Actually,

809
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard to keep track of the alphabet

810
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 1: soup of athalitarian communist groups at times, but this was

811
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,959
Speaker 1: actually answer for those who don't recall, it was front

812
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,479
Speaker 1: group for the Workers World Party the W which yeah,

813
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's hard to keep track, right, Yeah,

814
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: that's the same thing, like I think, so, so okay,

815
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: So for people who are sort of unaware of this,

816
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 1: there's a network of connected but sometimes feuding like weird

817
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: Stalinist cults that kind of kind of like they hold

818
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 1: on through the eighties and nineties and they start sort

819
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: of rebuilding again around the antiwar movements in that period.

820
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 1: That that's the PSLs of the up. That's answer like,

821
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: and I think that's like most like modern anti war

822
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: groups are also still these people, which is incredibly depressing

823
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: something you want to talk a bit about it towards

824
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 1: the end of this. But yeah, just for people who

825
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: have not spent the last half decade in the in

826
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: the trench is of extremely weird anti war politics. So yeah,

827
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: so I think we should get into how the the

828
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: first action starts in Olympia. Yeah. So, and there were

829
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: actually a couple of actions that happened, um in the

830
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: year proceeding that, you know, before I moved out to

831
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: Olympia in two thousand and six, it was not yet

832
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 1: under the banner of PMR Port Militarization Resistance. That was

833
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 1: a name that was officially coined in uh, you know,

834
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:42,479
Speaker 1: in in May and June of two thousand six. And so,

835
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: just to give you an idea Olympia, it's it's a

836
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: college town or at the Evergreen State College is there.

837
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: It's also the capital Washington State, so you have that

838
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: going on. It's also a military town. It's a little

839
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,320
Speaker 1: over twenty miles south of what we called Fort Lewis.

840
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: It's now called j B l M j BLOM or

841
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: Joint Base Lewis McCord. It's an Army and Air Force

842
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: base now it's one base. Um, so you had all

843
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: these you know, different kind of elements, uh in you know,

844
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: in tandem in in that town and the public port.

845
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: The port of Olympia is one of about seven years

846
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 1: so public ports in the state of Washington, some of

847
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: which are I mean, they're used for all kinds of

848
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 1: things you know, for commercial, private industry, but also the

849
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: military and the U. S. Government. Uh so, uh, you know,

850
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,240
Speaker 1: I heard from someone I don't even remember who that

851
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: the military was sending a ship to the port of

852
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: Olympia in late May of two thousand six. And this

853
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: happened for ten or so days. And it was just

854
00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: kind of a natural instinct for a whole bunch of

855
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: us to go down to the Port of Olympia. It

856
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: was it was the war machine in our backyard, and

857
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: the idea was to just block the vehicles. It started

858
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,479
Speaker 1: out with just like less than ten people number folks

859
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: getting arrested, and that very rapidly culminated into larger protests

860
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: every single day um an active blockades people, uh, those

861
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: of us like Juliana and myself and other folks using

862
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: civil disobedience or what we prefer to call civil resistance

863
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: to try and stop or at the very least slow

864
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 1: down these striker vehicles and to give folks an idea

865
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,320
Speaker 1: of what a striker vehicle is. You can look it

866
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: up online, but it's kind of halfway between. Um. You know,

867
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: a tank and a hum vy doesn't have the slats,

868
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: you know that a tank would have it's you know,

869
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: and they were being used in both Iraq and Afghanistan

870
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: for for raids of residential areas. They were really on

871
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: the front lines of of the war in in both

872
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: those countries, and that's what we're trying to stop. I

873
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 1: only got involved later, um, because I wasn't living in

874
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: Olympia at the time. UM. I was another STS chapter.

875
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: But my roommate was from Olympia and he had been

876
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: involved in that first round of protests in Olympia before

877
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: moving up to Bollingham. Yeah. So, like hearing his story

878
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: has got me very excited because just like finally someone's

879
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: someone's doing something like someone's they're not. Just like it's

880
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 1: like everything else was just so liberal. Take whether it's

881
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: marching from one place to another or writing to your

882
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 1: congress people or occupying their office. It was like asking

883
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,799
Speaker 1: someone else to do something which you knew from the

884
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: beginning they were never going to do. And finally this

885
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: is finally someone was like actually getting into it. UM.

886
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 1: I think the first one of the things that happened

887
00:53:52,800 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: here was that um they started to avoid UM. There's it.

888
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: It was kind of a geographical thing, I think, UM,

889
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: for people who either don't know Washington, Washington, or because

890
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 1: they're normal people don't know like the port areas of

891
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: these cities very well, because it's like like unless you're

892
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: a long sherman, like why you would you go down

893
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:26,879
Speaker 1: to like the port of Tacoma. UM. But they kept

894
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: moving it around because um Olympia is also not very

895
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:36,720
Speaker 1: big and UM, so it's there's really only two roads

896
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: into the port, which is very small, and so it

897
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: was it's very easy to block it UM. And so

898
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: then I think the first time that I got involved

899
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: UM was in two thousands seven when they had moved

900
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: it because they kept moving it around to try and

901
00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 1: switch things up and wait before the seeing the ship around. No,

902
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 1: it's like they had to make a military ship met

903
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,560
Speaker 1: they would UM. It's like like once the ship it

904
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,839
Speaker 1: wasn't the port, they would just have to go through

905
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 1: with it. But then UM, you know, it's like everything

906
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,399
Speaker 1: every six months or so they had to make another

907
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,120
Speaker 1: military ship met and they would change the port usually

908
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 1: each time, UM to try and let basically to avoid us.

909
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like this is like normal crap. UM.

910
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: The first time I had gone down was in UM Tacoma,

911
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: which is a much much much more industrialized port than Olympia.

912
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's like a big port, a more

913
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: normal port, I guess. And that one was honestly pretty crazy, um,

914
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:52,280
Speaker 1: because you're just trapped in this giant industrial maze basically

915
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: at the mercy of the riot cops. The best success

916
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: we had was definitely at the port of Olympia. UM.

917
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 1: I think the in two thousand seven in Olympia was

918
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 1: definitely the glory moment, which was when people were able

919
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: to on and off like actually hold the port and

920
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: control it. The Yeah, and I wanna you know, just

921
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: emphasize that, like the the one the military changing their

922
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: approach right to avoid us so jumping from port to

923
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 1: port with these different shipments. They actually went so far

924
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: because we were so successful as a movement in the

925
00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest to ship striker vehicles by rail out of

926
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest and even going so far as to

927
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: ports and Texas. I don't know, but you know, one

928
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 1: one thing that we did is that we built up

929
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 1: contacts with other activists with longshore workers all up and

930
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,840
Speaker 1: down the West coast in California. There are other activists

931
00:56:56,840 --> 00:57:00,760
Speaker 1: were connected within Texas, Hawaii, New Jersey, in New York,

932
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,280
Speaker 1: there is a desire and the anti war movement. Uh

933
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 1: and and you know, in some extent maybe it's like

934
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: it was small. But some folks in the labor movement,

935
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: especially in Oakland where the I LW the you know,

936
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: longshore workers Union, it's a lot more militant than say

937
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: in a place like Olympia. UM. But yeah, I mean

938
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: people wanted to replicate this model because, as Juliana said,

939
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: we wore successful in two thousand seven, we shut down

940
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: the port of Olympia for a total of it was

941
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 1: essentially two days. They were not they're not shipping anything

942
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: in or out. We set up blockades, were willing to

943
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: throw down with the police in the street. And one

944
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: of the things that was cool about that blockade is

945
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: that one of the there's two entrances, like I said,

946
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: and one was completely blockaded and then the other one, UM,

947
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 1: we had like a moving I don't really know what

948
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:54,800
Speaker 1: it was, but something with wheels that we can move

949
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 1: in and out UM to open it up. And so

950
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,439
Speaker 1: then we could allow like civilian cargo to move then out,

951
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: but then like we feel it back in place, UM

952
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: to block military shipments. So we were able to actually

953
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: like stopped them from like what while in in that

954
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 1: oneted to come, were able to actually like stopped them

955
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: from moving the self all together? Would you when sheally

956
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: cleared up by the police and they moved it, we

957
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: would eventually get cleared out by the police. It's like

958
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: we were never able to It's like we're we we

959
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:28,479
Speaker 1: held it for two days. That those protests took place

960
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:32,200
Speaker 1: over a series of two weeks or more or less. Um,

961
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: we were only able to fully hold it for two

962
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: days before eventually they would clear us out. But one

963
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: of the things is that this does it did create

964
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:49,439
Speaker 1: problems for the army because when you work with a port,

965
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's like you've got like a certain time

966
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: frame that you've contracted with the port to do whatever

967
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: it is because you're going to do and it's the

968
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: not too happy if you take longer very than you

969
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: said you would or yeah, yeah. And the other thing

970
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 1: I want to add is, you know, I think the

971
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: other really important element with this whole movement going on

972
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 1: is the Pacific Northwest was um it is specifically western

973
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: Washington where the two of us were living. It was

974
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 1: it was you know, the center and in a sense

975
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: it was the heart of the anti war movement in

976
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: the country at that time. One because of this militant

977
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: direct action that we were, you know, we were building

978
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 1: up in the streets and trying to throw a wrench

979
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:43,280
Speaker 1: in the gears of the war machine to to at

980
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: the veryly slowed down, which in some ways we did.

981
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: But we're up against so much. But the other added element,

982
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 1: of course is the g I resistance and the soldiers

983
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: who are resisting. I've all also known as the Rock

984
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,560
Speaker 1: Veterans against the War was very active there. They set

985
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 1: up a g coffeehouse across you know, literally across the street, uh,

986
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 1: you know, the gates for one of the entrances for

987
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: Fort Louis. Um. There are a whole bunch of soldiers

988
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 1: that were going a wall. We had friends who were

989
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: active duty soldiers who had fought in you know, Iraq

990
01:00:18,800 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 1: and Afghanistan that were a wall and they were hiding,

991
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, refusing to go back into the striker brigades

992
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 1: that joined us in port militarization resistance. Uh. There are

993
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: a whole you know, long list of soldiers that were

994
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 1: very publicly saying, you know, I'm refusing to fight in

995
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: Iraq or Afghanistan for you know, various reasons, and so

996
01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: we are very much connected with this movement too, and

997
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,560
Speaker 1: I think the higher ups in the military they're they're

998
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 1: hyper aware of that. They studied us very well, um,

999
01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, to the point of actually spying on us.

1000
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: So that's like a whole other element of the story too.

1001
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:00,880
Speaker 1: One of the things that I've heard from talking to

1002
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 1: other people who were involved in this was that like, wow,

1003
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:09,080
Speaker 1: like during these protests, like the level of police militarization

1004
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: just like skyrocketed, and like I remember I was talking

1005
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 1: trend about this. It was like, you know, if if

1006
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: you go back and look at like old system of

1007
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: a down videos, you know, they'll they'lly'll have these things. Yeah,

1008
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: and you'll see these you see these riot police and

1009
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: like you look at them and it's like these people

1010
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 1: they look so much less armored than like the people

1011
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: that we have now. And one of the things that

1012
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: I thought was interesting about this was that like this

1013
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 1: is I think one of the points where you start

1014
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 1: getting the modern riot police showing up that are just like,

1015
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: you know, completely encased in like armor. And yeah, I

1016
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 1: want to talk about just like the police response to this,

1017
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:47,200
Speaker 1: because I think that's that's another thing I think. I

1018
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: think there's never there's a kind of a tendency to

1019
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 1: sort of project back what the police look like one

1020
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: just onto the whole history of police and I think

1021
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 1: it's like it's it's it's gotten worse even in the

1022
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 1: last twenty years. Yeah, I mean, so I lived downtown

1023
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: in Olympia and probably just like a six minute walk

1024
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: away from the Port of Olympia and and also very

1025
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 1: conveniently just a few blocks away from the police station.

1026
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: So so lucky us. So we actually saw you know,

1027
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: we could see from the front of down on the road,

1028
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 1: down the sidewalk from the front of our house, Uh,

1029
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: some of the military shipments going by. And we we

1030
01:02:27,080 --> 01:02:30,040
Speaker 1: we did see that absolutely, and at at times it

1031
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: was it was terrifying. I mean I lived in an

1032
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:38,120
Speaker 1: Activis house we jokingly called HQ because that's just you

1033
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: know where because of its proximity to the port, that's

1034
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 1: where a number of us were having meetings, uh, you know,

1035
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 1: around these protests early on in two thousand six, and um, yeah,

1036
01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: I mean we like they look like RoboCop and it's

1037
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: something I had I you know, I hadn't like I

1038
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: had been to like mass marches and demonstrations like the

1039
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,440
Speaker 1: r n C protests and d NC protests in Boston,

1040
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: New York, and like in Washington, d C. Uh and

1041
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: so I would see these like riot cops, but they

1042
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 1: were I mean ubiquitous in the support protests. It was

1043
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: like a whole army of them that was sent out.

1044
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: I mean when Juliana said that things got kind of

1045
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 1: crazy at the Port of Tacoma protests, I mean there

1046
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 1: was like a police riot, you know, like the cops

1047
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 1: went absolutely nuts, are shooting people with tear gas and

1048
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: pepper balls and and brutalizing people. I had never before

1049
01:03:34,040 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 1: witnessed anything like that. And it got to the point

1050
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: in you know, in Olympia where we we kind of

1051
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: knew early on that we were being traced by the

1052
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: police to the extent where, you know, one friend of

1053
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 1: ours was followed from our house to the bus station

1054
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: to take a bus to school by the police and

1055
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 1: then was stopped and essentially assaulted by them on the street.

1056
01:03:56,440 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: And we had another fellow activists and uh, you know,

1057
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: a roommate of mine who is going out to driving

1058
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,600
Speaker 1: out with a few friends, uh, few fellow activists from

1059
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: Olympia to Aberdeen, about an hour's drive. So Aberdeen, there's

1060
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: a port of Gray's Harbor there, pretty conservative small town.

1061
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 1: It's where Kurt Cobain is from, home of the famous

1062
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 1: Kurt Cobain teams. McDonald's they served billions and and billions

1063
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,840
Speaker 1: served and that one McDonald's and Kurt Cobain's McDonald's. But yeah,

1064
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 1: I mean the you know, they they were they were following.

1065
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 1: They had orders the Washington State Patrol two, um, you know,

1066
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:43,440
Speaker 1: pull over a car full full of known anarchists. There

1067
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 1: was alert gone out to all the police departments. They

1068
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 1: pulled them. They pulled him over, they made him walk

1069
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 1: the line. He was had you know, wasn't drinking and

1070
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 1: no drugs like nothing in his system. But they he

1071
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 1: was driving under like one mile per hour under the

1072
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: speed limit. They arrested him for or d d W

1073
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 1: I you know, eventually fought the chargers sued um uh

1074
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 1: and you know when a big settlement out of all that.

1075
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: But that's just one example of many of the lengths

1076
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,360
Speaker 1: that the police would go to. It was pretty severe.

1077
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: Even there's a house of a bunch of anarchists, younger

1078
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: anarchists called a pitch Pipe Info Shop in Tacoma, and

1079
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 1: that was also a big target. The police were swarming

1080
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: around them all the time. They had like cameras set

1081
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 1: up like specifically just outside the Infra shop, like there

1082
01:05:30,960 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: weren't surrounds cameras there before, but then it was like, oh, well,

1083
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 1: just conveniently put them on this one specific street corner. Yeah,

1084
01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 1: I think like that was one of the things I

1085
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:41,480
Speaker 1: was reading about this is you have that stuff. And

1086
01:05:41,520 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: then also I think one of the steerest parts of

1087
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: this is that like army intelligence gets involved and yeah,

1088
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about the man named quote

1089
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:55,720
Speaker 1: unquote John Jacob, who was in fact not that Yeah, so, uh,

1090
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 1: you know, I'm curious what what memories you have of

1091
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: our our good dear friend John Jacob Juliana. I don't

1092
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,120
Speaker 1: think I ever actually knew him in person, but he

1093
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 1: was the moderator of the List Serve, wasn't he. Yes,

1094
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: she's one of the moderators of our list Serves now

1095
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: that I look back on him, Like the Port Militarization Resistance,

1096
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 1: the sirup was always just like this dramatic ship show,

1097
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 1: and it's like, looking back on it, I was like, oh,

1098
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 1: a cop that did nothing, absolutely nothing to like established

1099
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 1: order or uh I if it was on purpose. Yeah,

1100
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: so I think there's definitely something that happened, Like you know,

1101
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 1: looking back from our vantage point today, it's like, Okay,

1102
01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 1: things make a little more sense at the time though,

1103
01:06:47,080 --> 01:06:50,880
Speaker 1: And we're in this movement, right and so that means

1104
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 1: like meeting people where they're at, we find all kinds

1105
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: of people that would like want to join the movement

1106
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 1: like I, like I said earlier, like active duty soldiers

1107
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 1: that were joining. So I meant to a guy named

1108
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:04,040
Speaker 1: John Jacob and he sent an email out to me.

1109
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:06,640
Speaker 1: I was one of the contacts for the Olympia STS group,

1110
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, you know, there's kind of like

1111
01:07:09,240 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 1: a parent organization that's some old like elder activists or

1112
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,840
Speaker 1: in uh TO kind of mentor US called Movement for

1113
01:07:15,840 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: a Democratic Society, very small, never really took off, but like,

1114
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: I'm interested in getting involved. We met up in public

1115
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 1: and he seemed like an alright guy. I mean he was, um,

1116
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 1: you know, forty ish early forties. He had told me,

1117
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:33,160
Speaker 1: like you know, been in the military for years and

1118
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:35,480
Speaker 1: he actually still worked at Fort Lewis. So he was

1119
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: always open about that but it only went that far.

1120
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 1: He didn't ever tell us what he actually did there,

1121
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: and it wasn't abnormal for you know, we have many

1122
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: folks that worked active duty, you know, on base and

1123
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: civilian civilian roles or soldiers. As I mentioned that we're

1124
01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: in port militarization resistance. So he gets involved, and he

1125
01:07:58,000 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: gets really involved with port militarisation and resistance. He goes

1126
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: to protests, He gets pretty close with this group of

1127
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 1: anarchists I mentioned who lived in Tacoma, UM, and he

1128
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 1: seemed like a really solid guy to to most of us. UM.

1129
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 1: And you know, things happen as as we progress and

1130
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 1: you know, as a military responded to our uh you

1131
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: know how effective we wore in the anti war movement

1132
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 1: and the g I resistance movement by changing their tactics.

1133
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 1: We noticed that Okay, when we first started the protests, UM,

1134
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:36,439
Speaker 1: we we had the ability to catch the police by

1135
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 1: surprise by setting up you know, a blockade here, we're

1136
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: having a surprise action there at this time, or this

1137
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: support etcetera, etcetera. And as time progressed, we found out

1138
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:49,880
Speaker 1: that you know, we were having these making these decisions

1139
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 1: for tactics in our strategy we thought that we're in

1140
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:56,479
Speaker 1: private and then for whatever reason, the police kind of

1141
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 1: knew about where we were going to be before we

1142
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 1: even showed. And that I remember that happening in two

1143
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 1: thousand seven the Port of Olympia. Yeah, in Tacoma. There

1144
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: are there was a lot of things like that. Like

1145
01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 1: there was one time when they're like some people who

1146
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 1: had a meeting in a closed room, like all there,

1147
01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: they had taken the batteries out of their cell phones.

1148
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 1: They had simply written on the whiteboard the time and

1149
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: place they were going to have their next meeting, which

1150
01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: is going to be in a diner near the port.

1151
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,000
Speaker 1: And so that way if like if for any reason

1152
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:33,639
Speaker 1: the room was bugged, it wouldn't be caught up because

1153
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 1: it was just written on a board. And then it

1154
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: was like a small meeting too, so it's like there

1155
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:42,439
Speaker 1: weren't and then when they got to that diner, there's

1156
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 1: like full of cops like clearly waiting for them. Like

1157
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 1: at that point, it's like it was very clear there

1158
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:55,519
Speaker 1: was some some level of infiltration involved. Yeah, and I

1159
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:58,280
Speaker 1: think we from early on, like you know, we we

1160
01:09:58,360 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: knew our history. I mean, you know, one of our

1161
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 1: our fellow activists and pmrs and a friend of ours,

1162
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,880
Speaker 1: Peter Boehmer's professor at the Evergreen State College. He was

1163
01:10:06,920 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: in the original sts back in the sixties, and you know,

1164
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 1: he was essentially a political prisoner for a couple of

1165
01:10:14,320 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 1: years in both Massachusetts and California. UM. I mean the

1166
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 1: FEDS essentially tried to assassinate him. Um back in in

1167
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:24,280
Speaker 1: the seventies when he was active in the anti war

1168
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,759
Speaker 1: movement in San Diego. Like we knew, you know, former

1169
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,360
Speaker 1: Black Panthers, and we read our history, so we knew

1170
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 1: about the history of cointelpro the counterintelligence program of the

1171
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 1: six season and seventies and the war on the anti

1172
01:10:36,479 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 1: war and civil rights and black power, American Indian movements, etcetera. UM,

1173
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: so we knew, you know, just intuitively early on. Uh.

1174
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 1: But there's one thing that happened in particular which prompted

1175
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 1: some of us to file for a public records request

1176
01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 1: with the City of Olympia and another activists walking down

1177
01:10:55,680 --> 01:10:58,760
Speaker 1: the street in Olympia. I'm a member of the Wobby's

1178
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: Industrial Workers of the World Union, and we had like

1179
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 1: a one of those metal newspaper boxes downtown and it

1180
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,559
Speaker 1: was locked to a poll um, you know, with a

1181
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: bike lock and there are some city workers there with

1182
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 1: a pickup truck and they're cutting the lock to this

1183
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 1: newspaper box and they threw it in their pickup truck

1184
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:18,639
Speaker 1: and so are you know this friend of ours was there.

1185
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:20,400
Speaker 1: It was like, what the hell, what are you doing?

1186
01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 1: What's going on? And one of the workers just kind

1187
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:24,639
Speaker 1: of strugged and was like, I don't know, the police

1188
01:11:24,680 --> 01:11:26,640
Speaker 1: told us to do this, and they drove off like

1189
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: they stole you know, are essentially like our union property

1190
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:33,680
Speaker 1: or whatever. UM. So we had you know, our our

1191
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 1: lawyer friend Larry Hilda's and the National Lawyer's Guild you know,

1192
01:11:37,200 --> 01:11:39,679
Speaker 1: call and kind of threatened the city and and then

1193
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 1: a number of us got together like, hey, you know,

1194
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:45,680
Speaker 1: let's do like a public records requests UM with the

1195
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 1: City of of Olympia freedom of information law right and

1196
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 1: so we did. And the request was, you know, just

1197
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: requesting any all information the city had, UM, any exchanges

1198
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:03,599
Speaker 1: communications by email, etcetera between the police and like other

1199
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: agencies about anarchists i WW Students for a Democratic Society UM.

1200
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,799
Speaker 1: And their initial search that the city clerk did yielded

1201
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:17,519
Speaker 1: something like thirty thousand responses. So she's like, Okay, I

1202
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 1: gotta narrow this down. And I don't know, I was

1203
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 1: working on the request at the time, and for some reason,

1204
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,560
Speaker 1: like I don't know where support protests are near a

1205
01:12:26,600 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 1: military based communications between the army not thinking anything, and

1206
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:35,680
Speaker 1: so the initial responses who actually got um, you know,

1207
01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 1: maybe a hundred hundred thirty or so different documents, just

1208
01:12:40,240 --> 01:12:45,320
Speaker 1: copies of emails, etcetera. That, Um, we're little puzzle pieces

1209
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 1: for this massive puzzle. And it was just a few

1210
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,880
Speaker 1: of them. Uh. And it was you know, there was

1211
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: an email talking about our guy in the Navy going

1212
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 1: to a p MR meeting to get some intel. Uh.

1213
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 1: There's you know, kinds of things like that. There are

1214
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,719
Speaker 1: a few emails in particular. Um, and the email address

1215
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:08,559
Speaker 1: was something like John John J Towery UT you know,

1216
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:12,639
Speaker 1: Army dot us whatever the email address was. So there's

1217
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: a crew of activists that got together, put their heads together,

1218
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:18,919
Speaker 1: did some research quietly for a few months, and eventually

1219
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 1: found out by publicly accessible information like voter registration records

1220
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:28,400
Speaker 1: and also finding out something about like a motorcycle club

1221
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,719
Speaker 1: called like the I don't know, like the Brown Beauque

1222
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 1: Club or the Brown butt club or something, and and

1223
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,559
Speaker 1: the like found out that this John Towery guy that

1224
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,640
Speaker 1: was in this motorcycle club and had his you know,

1225
01:13:41,320 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 1: was registered to vote outside of Tacoma in this town there.

1226
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 1: It was actually John Jacob. It was this guy that

1227
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:52,759
Speaker 1: we thought was a fellow activist, an anarchist um and

1228
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 1: and a friend, you know, I thought he was a

1229
01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:57,960
Speaker 1: personal friend of mine. Turns out he was actually essentially

1230
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,439
Speaker 1: an Army intelligence officer working for something called the Force

1231
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:06,320
Speaker 1: Protection Unit at uh AT Joint Phase Joint based Lewis

1232
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:11,120
Speaker 1: McCord and also working with a whole list of different

1233
01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 1: agencies and what turned out to be like a massive

1234
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 1: surveillance network that was national in scope. This guy was

1235
01:14:17,960 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: sent by the Army along with many others to infiltrate us,

1236
01:14:22,439 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 1: to aspire on us, and to disrupt us. It was huge, Yeah,

1237
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:28,160
Speaker 1: And that That's one of the things that I've always

1238
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 1: always really interesting about this is like, so like I

1239
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 1: learned about poor militarization resistance basically because I was like

1240
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: poking around the history of like informists and I ran

1241
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 1: into this and I was like what because and then

1242
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 1: that was what what I thought. One of the things

1243
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:42,520
Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting about this is that, like,

1244
01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 1: like I think that this chapter of the anti war

1245
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:47,280
Speaker 1: movement is even on the left, is like not very

1246
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:50,360
Speaker 1: well known, but like the seriousness is which the army

1247
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:54,080
Speaker 1: seems to have taken it easily is really remarkable. Yeah,

1248
01:14:54,120 --> 01:14:56,760
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what you do think about that. One thing

1249
01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:59,559
Speaker 1: we have to emphasize is is that we were not

1250
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:04,040
Speaker 1: a large group of people. Like, um, the number of

1251
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:08,840
Speaker 1: people who are actively involved in port militaristication assistance at

1252
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 1: its peak was how many people do you think it was, Brandon, Well,

1253
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 1: it depends. I mean I'd say they're probably like at

1254
01:15:14,520 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 1: its peak maybe probably four ye to fifty people that

1255
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 1: would like consistently show up to things. You know, maybe

1256
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:24,640
Speaker 1: a slightly smaller, very core group, but we would have

1257
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:29,040
Speaker 1: demonstrations with like and then like four people, you know, yeah,

1258
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:32,920
Speaker 1: and like that would be like the max like there

1259
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 1: is it's like there are like the peaceful like kind

1260
01:15:39,160 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 1: of like support actions. You know, you would get like

1261
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 1: a couple hundred people and then like for the stuff

1262
01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:50,120
Speaker 1: like where it's like the first night that that the

1263
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:52,920
Speaker 1: part of the entrance to the part of Olympia was occupied,

1264
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: it would be like Um, these were not These were

1265
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 1: not very large groups of people. UM. I feel like

1266
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:03,680
Speaker 1: and like I said, it's like one thing that we

1267
01:16:03,760 --> 01:16:06,200
Speaker 1: need to keep in mind was that, um, the peace

1268
01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: police were much stronger back then than they are now nowadays.

1269
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:13,760
Speaker 1: Laton like as we saw last year, it's like people

1270
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: in the US of learn to throw down, but that

1271
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 1: was not the case at the time. And so this

1272
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:24,600
Speaker 1: is a very very small group of people. UM. I

1273
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:29,519
Speaker 1: think we accomplished a lot from with how small it was. UM.

1274
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,480
Speaker 1: If it had been larger, it would have accomplished way more. UM.

1275
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:44,799
Speaker 1: But even that small core of like people with maybe

1276
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:48,960
Speaker 1: expanding out to like a larger group of a couple

1277
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 1: of hundred, had them that scared that they went that

1278
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 1: far they're trying to disrupt it. Yeah. And and this

1279
01:16:57,280 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 1: is one of the things I've been thinking about a

1280
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: lot of recent lee of this seems to be a

1281
01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:05,960
Speaker 1: very consistent thing, which is that like the two things

1282
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:10,080
Speaker 1: that are guaranteed to like just have a hammer drop

1283
01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:12,879
Speaker 1: on you if you touch them is pipelines and ports,

1284
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 1: And that that was that was something you know, we've

1285
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot on here about pipeline protests. UM.

1286
01:17:21,600 --> 01:17:26,240
Speaker 1: But I was interested in what you too think about

1287
01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:31,120
Speaker 1: because you know, this this is like of very particular

1288
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:33,439
Speaker 1: moment right now in which you're dealing with all these

1289
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:36,680
Speaker 1: logistics chain failures. And I was wondering if if you

1290
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 1: do think there's anything that we can learn from how

1291
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:45,599
Speaker 1: your versions of the sort of of port demonstrations worked

1292
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:48,799
Speaker 1: for potentially trying to leverage that in the future, especially

1293
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:53,439
Speaker 1: with like contract negotiations for port workers in Oakland coming

1294
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 1: up next year. Yeah, that's a great question. You know,

1295
01:17:57,360 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 1: it's this old saying in the I w w D

1296
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:02,479
Speaker 1: action gets goods, right, And I think it really boils

1297
01:18:02,520 --> 01:18:06,719
Speaker 1: down to that it's building up uh, you know, mass

1298
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:11,719
Speaker 1: movements and in social movements from below h that rely

1299
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 1: on direct action, that rely on civil resistance, civil disobedience. Um. Yeah,

1300
01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 1: and and the pipeline protests that have been ongoing where

1301
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 1: Indigenous people have been on the front lines of that

1302
01:18:23,960 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: for many many years now. I mean, the kind of

1303
01:18:26,479 --> 01:18:31,760
Speaker 1: repression and surveillance that we face really pales in comparison

1304
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 1: to the kinds of you know, surveillance of repression net

1305
01:18:35,280 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: folks were facing at Standing Rock, for example. Um. You know,

1306
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:44,519
Speaker 1: I think, of course one of the well one of

1307
01:18:44,560 --> 01:18:48,440
Speaker 1: the main differences is that it was primarily the military,

1308
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 1: you know, with us, right that was uh, surveilling us

1309
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:56,880
Speaker 1: because this is very specifically, you know, a war issue

1310
01:18:56,920 --> 01:19:02,719
Speaker 1: and a military issue. Um. But yeah, I mean I think, um,

1311
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 1: you know, like I think there's a big questions like

1312
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:07,559
Speaker 1: what what do we have to do that's that's new?

1313
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: And to me, I say, you know, for both that

1314
01:19:10,320 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 1: kind of militant action, but also for the labor movements, like,

1315
01:19:13,520 --> 01:19:16,559
Speaker 1: it's not you know, we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

1316
01:19:16,720 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 1: There are things that have a tried and true track

1317
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 1: record of getting the goods, and that is you know,

1318
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 1: these more disruptive kind of actions and movements. Um. And

1319
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 1: so one of them would be you know, I guess

1320
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:35,440
Speaker 1: my suggestion would be to like go back to the basics.

1321
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: And even like I would say, now, you know this,

1322
01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 1: remember this at a time when like Facebook was around, right, Like,

1323
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:45,559
Speaker 1: but we weren't really using that for our organizing. We

1324
01:19:45,640 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 1: really relied on like face to face meetings, you know,

1325
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:53,360
Speaker 1: phone calls and building up trust with people and building

1326
01:19:53,439 --> 01:19:56,360
Speaker 1: up our capacity to like take actions and make change.

1327
01:19:56,400 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 1: You know, I think I'm not saying throw out everything

1328
01:19:59,040 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 1: that you know, that at least some of the good

1329
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:03,760
Speaker 1: that social media has to offer. But like I think

1330
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 1: going beyond that and going back to these older tactics

1331
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:09,479
Speaker 1: and then for the labor movement, like the big thing

1332
01:20:09,640 --> 01:20:11,879
Speaker 1: is you know, and it's just like a bigger question

1333
01:20:12,000 --> 01:20:17,240
Speaker 1: for for mainstream unions in particular, I mean, they're that

1334
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 1: the whole idea of like union contracts is that workers

1335
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:24,759
Speaker 1: also lose a lot. Yeah, they get some things, but uh,

1336
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:28,960
Speaker 1: business owners and bosses have rights carved out in in

1337
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:32,160
Speaker 1: those contracts. And with the longshore workers, I mean the

1338
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:34,360
Speaker 1: difficult thing with that, of course, is like there would

1339
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 1: be some symbolic strikes that of course, like longshore workers

1340
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 1: have done and continue to do, you know, around like

1341
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 1: the war Iraq historically supporting movie a bou Jamal maydea, etcetera,

1342
01:20:47,760 --> 01:20:50,439
Speaker 1: like in Oakland, Um, but they have some things for

1343
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:53,360
Speaker 1: that written into their contracts, and you know, for all

1344
01:20:53,439 --> 01:20:56,720
Speaker 1: these other like unions it's like, well, you know, we

1345
01:20:56,800 --> 01:21:01,120
Speaker 1: can't strike at all for uh, for the next two years,

1346
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:03,760
Speaker 1: the next three years, whatever the life of the contract is. Like,

1347
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 1: I think it's a bigger question and challenge for the

1348
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:10,240
Speaker 1: labor movement to move beyond that and not be putting

1349
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 1: this strait jacket of contracts like that. Yeah, I think

1350
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: that that, particularly, like the the no strike clause part

1351
01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:20,400
Speaker 1: of contracts, I think is an interesting thing because it

1352
01:21:21,640 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 1: I don't know, there's not I mean, there are some

1353
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:29,840
Speaker 1: unions that will actually do stuff around fighting it, but

1354
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:32,360
Speaker 1: mostly people just sort of don't care. And I think

1355
01:21:32,920 --> 01:21:36,200
Speaker 1: you wind up in a situation where it seems like

1356
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 1: you kind of have to plan your tactics around when

1357
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 1: contract negotiations are happening, because otherwise you can't actually get

1358
01:21:42,520 --> 01:21:44,280
Speaker 1: people to do anything more in like a one day

1359
01:21:44,280 --> 01:21:47,760
Speaker 1: symbolic strike. Yeah, and or you know the challenges, Like,

1360
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:50,840
Speaker 1: you know, we have this great American tradition that's not

1361
01:21:50,960 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 1: unique to the US. It's universal really, and it's one

1362
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 1: that resonates with me breaking the law right and like

1363
01:21:58,280 --> 01:22:01,400
Speaker 1: we're you know, we're like civil obedience. That is that

1364
01:22:01,600 --> 01:22:03,719
Speaker 1: what we were doing in the streets and blocking the ports.

1365
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 1: We were breaking the law and we knew it. And

1366
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 1: that's what the civil rights movement, the Black freedom movement

1367
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:12,640
Speaker 1: did in in the nineteen sixties. But like we have

1368
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:18,080
Speaker 1: recent examples of workers breaking the law and mass like

1369
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,840
Speaker 1: the West Virginia teacher strikes that happened a few years ago,

1370
01:22:22,439 --> 01:22:25,679
Speaker 1: Like teachers in every single county in that state went

1371
01:22:25,760 --> 01:22:29,280
Speaker 1: on strike. They broke the law and and they want

1372
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:31,599
Speaker 1: something out of that. And I think that's what we

1373
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:35,720
Speaker 1: really need to encourage people, is this idea of breaking

1374
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 1: out of like the norm and and breaking the laws

1375
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:41,320
Speaker 1: which you know, the laws that are in place, which

1376
01:22:41,360 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 1: are not there to you know, expand our freedom there

1377
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:48,719
Speaker 1: there too contracted. Yeah, one of one of my friends

1378
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:52,040
Speaker 1: kind a joke about what was the exact line. It was,

1379
01:22:52,560 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 1: it's it's only illegal if you get caught and it

1380
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:56,760
Speaker 1: only matters if you lose, which I think is a

1381
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:04,000
Speaker 1: good way of thinking about. But King and you know, yeah,

1382
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:06,880
Speaker 1: I think it's also like it's worth mentioning that like

1383
01:23:07,439 --> 01:23:11,120
Speaker 1: the other sides, the law doesn't matter to them at all,

1384
01:23:11,240 --> 01:23:13,240
Speaker 1: Like they just tear it up and like light it

1385
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:16,960
Speaker 1: on fire constantly. So don't don't bind yourself if if

1386
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:19,400
Speaker 1: you can, if you can, not get caught and not

1387
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:21,840
Speaker 1: like go to prison for the rest of your life.

1388
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:25,120
Speaker 1: Don't bind yourself by a bunch of like paper that

1389
01:23:25,200 --> 01:23:30,000
Speaker 1: the other side just doesn't care about. Yeah, And that's

1390
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:33,160
Speaker 1: an excellent point because that's the big thing, you know

1391
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:36,680
Speaker 1: with the army and law enforcement in general, like surveillance

1392
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:39,280
Speaker 1: of us. They were in the police just their actions,

1393
01:23:39,320 --> 01:23:43,320
Speaker 1: their brazen actions on the street, like the riot police. Um,

1394
01:23:43,439 --> 01:23:47,000
Speaker 1: they were just breaking the law all the time. They

1395
01:23:47,040 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 1: absolutely have a deep visceral hatred of the Bill of Rights,

1396
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:55,400
Speaker 1: of civil rights and civil liberties. And so there were

1397
01:23:55,439 --> 01:23:59,160
Speaker 1: a number of you know, court cases that sprung out

1398
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:02,519
Speaker 1: of you know, this movement. There was a case called

1399
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 1: Panagocus Vitari. Another Juliana Panagoucus was another PMR member co

1400
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:11,840
Speaker 1: plaintiff in that case. And you know, is it a

1401
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:14,719
Speaker 1: case against the army that you know, we we waged

1402
01:24:14,760 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: and brought up to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals

1403
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:20,639
Speaker 1: and you know, eventually lost and it could have brought

1404
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 1: it to the Supreme Court but didn't. But you know,

1405
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 1: like the the other thing is like the violation of

1406
01:24:25,479 --> 01:24:28,320
Speaker 1: the Posse Commentatus Act. It was a whole other thing.

1407
01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:30,160
Speaker 1: You know, we don't have to get like so tied

1408
01:24:30,200 --> 01:24:33,679
Speaker 1: up into like the legalistic thing. But like the point,

1409
01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:37,200
Speaker 1: your point is valid, Like they don't care about the

1410
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:40,800
Speaker 1: laws that are already there. They'll they'll just intentionally break them,

1411
01:24:41,120 --> 01:24:43,080
Speaker 1: break their own laws. That they have set up and

1412
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:45,559
Speaker 1: you know, they'll just get a slap on the wrist

1413
01:24:45,640 --> 01:24:50,240
Speaker 1: because that's really all that's all that happens to them.

1414
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:51,720
Speaker 1: I think, I think I think that's a good note

1415
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:56,519
Speaker 1: to end on break the law. It's fake, it's also bad. Um.

1416
01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 1: Do you two have anything you want to plug other

1417
01:24:59,080 --> 01:25:01,479
Speaker 1: than that, other than you know, encouraging people to break

1418
01:25:01,520 --> 01:25:09,840
Speaker 1: the do any cage your local port? Yeah? Yeah, I

1419
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:14,000
Speaker 1: mean I I think it's you know, I guess just

1420
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,320
Speaker 1: encourage people to do as you know, it sounds like

1421
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:19,559
Speaker 1: what we're doing by having us on the show, and

1422
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:24,320
Speaker 1: like there are some in our very recent history, um,

1423
01:25:24,360 --> 01:25:27,959
Speaker 1: you know, movements and winds that we all as activists

1424
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:32,200
Speaker 1: today can still learn from. And I think part of that, um,

1425
01:25:32,240 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to call us elders because

1426
01:25:34,000 --> 01:25:36,439
Speaker 1: we're not that old, but like one part of that

1427
01:25:36,600 --> 01:25:39,960
Speaker 1: is like making sure like our movements are still like

1428
01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:43,880
Speaker 1: a multi generational and like we we learned from each

1429
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:47,559
Speaker 1: other and also as as Juliana and I did, like

1430
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:50,640
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, like we learned from the movements of

1431
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:55,800
Speaker 1: the past, sts, the Black Panthers, the Black Freedom Movement, etcetera. Um,

1432
01:25:55,800 --> 01:25:58,519
Speaker 1: but there's a lot that you know, these these struggles

1433
01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:04,240
Speaker 1: I think have to offer us today. All right, thank

1434
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you both for talking coming on and

1435
01:26:06,160 --> 01:26:10,760
Speaker 1: talking with us. You're for having us. Thank you. Well,

1436
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,120
Speaker 1: this is this has when it could happen here find

1437
01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:17,400
Speaker 1: us at happened here pod on Twitter, Instagram, and the

1438
01:26:17,479 --> 01:26:20,479
Speaker 1: rest of our stuff is at closoned media at the

1439
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:24,280
Speaker 1: same somewhat accursed social media places. I don't know why

1440
01:26:24,280 --> 01:26:28,720
Speaker 1: I'm saying somewhat, they're just a cursed Yeah, see you

1441
01:26:29,200 --> 01:26:45,920
Speaker 1: next time whenever that is, Welcome back to it could

1442
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,920
Speaker 1: happen here, the show about things not being great and

1443
01:26:49,120 --> 01:26:52,880
Speaker 1: maybe trying to make them better. UM, I'm Robert Evans. Uh.

1444
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:55,320
Speaker 1: This week we got we have a special little little

1445
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:58,920
Speaker 1: little episode for you. UM, I'm gonna sit down and

1446
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:02,960
Speaker 1: talk with Lucas Herndon. UM. Lucas, you are from New

1447
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 1: or you live in New Mexico at least, um, and

1448
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:07,479
Speaker 1: you wanted to talk to me a bit about some

1449
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:09,439
Speaker 1: stuff that's going on in your school boards. We just

1450
01:27:09,439 --> 01:27:12,439
Speaker 1: did a two parter on fascist attempts to kind of

1451
01:27:12,479 --> 01:27:15,040
Speaker 1: take over and dominate school boards around the country, and

1452
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:17,360
Speaker 1: you've got some personal experience with that, so I wanted

1453
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:19,280
Speaker 1: to kind of just turn this over to you to

1454
01:27:19,439 --> 01:27:23,280
Speaker 1: start us off. Yeah, thanks for Robert, thanks for having

1455
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:25,519
Speaker 1: me on the show. Um. Yeah, my name is Lucas

1456
01:27:25,640 --> 01:27:27,680
Speaker 1: and I live in Las Cruces, New Mexico, which is

1457
01:27:28,160 --> 01:27:29,720
Speaker 1: in the southern part of the state. Were close to

1458
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:33,040
Speaker 1: the border for people that are interested. Um and yeah,

1459
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:36,840
Speaker 1: like you know that my experience had happened last week

1460
01:27:36,880 --> 01:27:41,520
Speaker 1: is sort of the quintessential. It could happen here, Yeah,

1461
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:46,839
Speaker 1: did exactly. Plus Las Cruces, Um, politically speaking, is actually

1462
01:27:46,840 --> 01:27:50,240
Speaker 1: a very progressive little time. I mean, in general, New

1463
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:53,679
Speaker 1: Mexico has been for what you know, however you consider

1464
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 1: the progressive or not. Is has been blue for quite

1465
01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 1: a while. As in terms of like voting like it's

1466
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:03,760
Speaker 1: not it's not like Texas politically at least right that's

1467
01:28:03,840 --> 01:28:06,439
Speaker 1: yeah exactly. Yeah, we voted for we voted for Bush

1468
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:10,360
Speaker 1: the first time, but have voted blue every election since

1469
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 1: two thousands four. Like federally, so in my little stretch

1470
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:17,960
Speaker 1: of the of the state, our congressional district has been read.

1471
01:28:18,439 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 1: But the city of Los Cruces, which is the like

1472
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:23,360
Speaker 1: where the biggest city in the southern part of the state,

1473
01:28:23,360 --> 01:28:26,160
Speaker 1: where the second biggest city in the state. UM. Our

1474
01:28:26,200 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 1: city council has not only been democratic, but like progressively democratic.

1475
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:35,479
Speaker 1: UM we have UM as of this recent election, you know,

1476
01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 1: from the beginning of November, we now have an all

1477
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:42,880
Speaker 1: female city council. UM there is at least we have

1478
01:28:43,240 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 1: UM one one if not too trying to think. Sorry.

1479
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:52,000
Speaker 1: Currently there are two UM folks on the city council

1480
01:28:52,040 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 1: have immigrated from Mexico in their life. UM one will

1481
01:28:54,880 --> 01:28:58,639
Speaker 1: still be on one is now running for Congress. UM

1482
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:02,920
Speaker 1: we have UM. The school board that currently is sitting

1483
01:29:03,120 --> 01:29:05,840
Speaker 1: is generally progressive, and the one we just elected, we

1484
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:10,680
Speaker 1: just elected our first openly queer person onto that school board. UM.

1485
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,519
Speaker 1: Our little group of of legislators that go up to

1486
01:29:13,560 --> 01:29:17,120
Speaker 1: Santa Fe every year is very progressive. So again, just

1487
01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 1: to kind of reiterate, like Las Cruces, New Mexico, pretty

1488
01:29:19,840 --> 01:29:23,840
Speaker 1: progressive little place. And yet at the school board meeting

1489
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 1: last week, UM totally dominated by a public attendance of

1490
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:34,000
Speaker 1: very far right extremists, UM spouting all kinds of nonsense

1491
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,400
Speaker 1: about all kinds of things. So yeah, it was pretty

1492
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:38,600
Speaker 1: well yeah, and this, I mean, this has happened. This

1493
01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:41,560
Speaker 1: happened in Portland, Oregon, too, which is also famously. I

1494
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:45,600
Speaker 1: don't know. I wouldn't call Portland politics progressive but solidly democratic.

1495
01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:48,559
Speaker 1: And the the school board meeting gets taken over by by

1496
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:52,160
Speaker 1: far right activists. This is a yeah, So when did

1497
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:57,400
Speaker 1: you kind of first become aware of this? Well? So, um,

1498
01:29:57,439 --> 01:29:59,799
Speaker 1: it was it was a weird convergence of my personal

1499
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:02,280
Speaker 1: end my and my private or I'm sorry, my personal

1500
01:30:02,280 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 1: and my professional life where I um, I work for

1501
01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 1: an organization called progress Now in Mexico, so it's like

1502
01:30:09,880 --> 01:30:14,479
Speaker 1: I do progressive politics for a living. But um and

1503
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:16,479
Speaker 1: a colleague who works for the A C. L U

1504
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:19,360
Speaker 1: here had asked if I would go and help lend

1505
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:23,040
Speaker 1: support to this gender inclusion policy that the school board

1506
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 1: was going to be um commenting on. They weren't voting

1507
01:30:26,360 --> 01:30:28,200
Speaker 1: on it that day. It was what's called a first reading,

1508
01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:31,479
Speaker 1: and she asked if I could go and if I could,

1509
01:30:31,560 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 1: you know, just speak, and I was like, yeah, absolutely,

1510
01:30:33,640 --> 01:30:35,479
Speaker 1: be happy too. So I was gonna go and and

1511
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:39,760
Speaker 1: talk about this in a i'm sorry, professional capacity. And

1512
01:30:39,800 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: then that day, um, as like before I went to that,

1513
01:30:44,640 --> 01:30:47,639
Speaker 1: my daughter, who's in middle school, texted me a picture

1514
01:30:47,800 --> 01:30:52,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of kids had on Monday of of last

1515
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:55,679
Speaker 1: week which was like trans Awareness Week or Transvisibility Week.

1516
01:30:56,920 --> 01:30:59,759
Speaker 1: Some kids had shown up wearing trans flags and Pride

1517
01:30:59,760 --> 01:31:03,200
Speaker 1: flag eggs on that Monday. The following day, that Tuesday,

1518
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:06,879
Speaker 1: some kids showed up wearing UM thin blue line flags

1519
01:31:07,080 --> 01:31:12,160
Speaker 1: in in response like indirect response um and in my

1520
01:31:12,240 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 1: daughter and you know, my daughter is aware enough to

1521
01:31:14,120 --> 01:31:16,400
Speaker 1: know what that means. So she texted me and I

1522
01:31:16,479 --> 01:31:17,880
Speaker 1: was like, I can't believe this ship and I was

1523
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:20,240
Speaker 1: like I know. Um. So then I'm like right. So

1524
01:31:20,280 --> 01:31:21,600
Speaker 1: then I'm like, okay, well, now I want to go

1525
01:31:21,680 --> 01:31:25,800
Speaker 1: speak about this gender inclusion bill or policy personally right

1526
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 1: like now like has impacted me. Um. So I show

1527
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:32,559
Speaker 1: up at you know, about an hour before the meeting

1528
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:36,040
Speaker 1: is supposed to start. Because the third thing that kind

1529
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,320
Speaker 1: of happened was that I, um, I am, I'm on

1530
01:31:39,400 --> 01:31:41,559
Speaker 1: like a bunch of mailing lists because of my job.

1531
01:31:41,960 --> 01:31:46,240
Speaker 1: And sure enough the local gop um, who is not

1532
01:31:46,360 --> 01:31:48,639
Speaker 1: very active because again they kind of lose all the time,

1533
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:51,479
Speaker 1: they sent out a like come show up at this thing,

1534
01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:55,360
Speaker 1: you know email. So I showed up early, thinking okay,

1535
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:57,240
Speaker 1: well I want to see if there's gonna be something.

1536
01:31:57,680 --> 01:31:59,240
Speaker 1: And at first I was like, oh, like I don't

1537
01:31:59,280 --> 01:32:01,240
Speaker 1: think they showed up. Don't think that they turned out.

1538
01:32:01,479 --> 01:32:03,720
Speaker 1: That's good. But it turns out they were all like

1539
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:07,160
Speaker 1: hiding in their cars so that they could like swarm

1540
01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:10,400
Speaker 1: the building at once. And so then like about half

1541
01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:12,719
Speaker 1: an hour before the meeting, they all walked in at once,

1542
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:15,439
Speaker 1: and like I was already sitting inside the room, and

1543
01:32:15,479 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 1: they all came in at once, and they took over

1544
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:21,320
Speaker 1: all the chairs. They was standing room only. Um to

1545
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:24,240
Speaker 1: the point where like the there was a bunch of

1546
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: f f A kids that were there that was supposed

1547
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:28,760
Speaker 1: to be recognized for you know, f A something or other,

1548
01:32:29,200 --> 01:32:32,080
Speaker 1: and like they had to kick some people out so

1549
01:32:32,120 --> 01:32:35,519
Speaker 1: that they weren't violating the fire code. Um that's how many. Yeah,

1550
01:32:36,000 --> 01:32:39,040
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's kind of how it all. That's the

1551
01:32:39,040 --> 01:32:42,599
Speaker 1: setting for where this all happened. Um. It turns out

1552
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:45,040
Speaker 1: that at the same meeting there was gonna be a

1553
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:48,400
Speaker 1: policy discussion on a different policy that had to do

1554
01:32:48,479 --> 01:32:53,640
Speaker 1: with New Mexico's revision of Social Studies standards. Um, and

1555
01:32:53,680 --> 01:32:56,599
Speaker 1: of course that got everybody hot and bothered about so

1556
01:32:56,640 --> 01:33:01,680
Speaker 1: called c RT, which isn't a thing. But so like

1557
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 1: they were there, but I mean, but the folks that

1558
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,080
Speaker 1: showed up to speak. I mean they were all over

1559
01:33:05,120 --> 01:33:07,439
Speaker 1: the place. They were talking about critical race theory, they

1560
01:33:07,439 --> 01:33:10,200
Speaker 1: were talking about the Gender Inclusion Bill and like trans

1561
01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:13,599
Speaker 1: violent the myth of trans violence and um. But then

1562
01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:16,240
Speaker 1: of course like like COVID protocols and all kinds of

1563
01:33:16,360 --> 01:33:20,040
Speaker 1: I mean just again like way out their stuff, um

1564
01:33:20,400 --> 01:33:22,679
Speaker 1: and actually kind of funny. I was listening to Knowledge

1565
01:33:22,720 --> 01:33:25,519
Speaker 1: Fight this morning, and uh, Jordan and Dan really hit

1566
01:33:25,600 --> 01:33:28,479
Speaker 1: on it that like they have just figured out that

1567
01:33:28,520 --> 01:33:30,680
Speaker 1: these are places they can go and yell and like

1568
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:34,160
Speaker 1: no one, you know, like school board people aren't gonna

1569
01:33:34,240 --> 01:33:36,120
Speaker 1: like they're all just these are all just like teachers,

1570
01:33:36,120 --> 01:33:37,960
Speaker 1: like retired teachers who are on these school boards and

1571
01:33:37,960 --> 01:33:39,800
Speaker 1: they're like they're not there to just you know, have

1572
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:42,800
Speaker 1: these like whatever discussions, so they're not gonna you know,

1573
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:44,679
Speaker 1: they just like let these people yell and they did.

1574
01:33:45,240 --> 01:33:48,800
Speaker 1: So anyways, it got it got heated, uh pretty quickly,

1575
01:33:48,840 --> 01:33:51,800
Speaker 1: because I mean again, these people just like go off

1576
01:33:51,840 --> 01:33:53,840
Speaker 1: and they get they riled themselves up and those lots

1577
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 1: of applause and anyway, that's kind of how it all started,

1578
01:33:57,200 --> 01:34:00,519
Speaker 1: I guess, or that's what it was. And I mean,

1579
01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:02,679
Speaker 1: has has there have you noticed kind of any sort

1580
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:05,519
Speaker 1: of mobilization in the community now that this has happened,

1581
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:07,240
Speaker 1: because it seems like the first ones of these, at

1582
01:34:07,320 --> 01:34:10,080
Speaker 1: least always take everybody by surprise. People are not used

1583
01:34:10,080 --> 01:34:13,040
Speaker 1: to still not really used to school board meetings being

1584
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:16,640
Speaker 1: um shall I say interesting, Um, certainly important, but like

1585
01:34:16,720 --> 01:34:18,639
Speaker 1: not a thing that you have to really be concerned

1586
01:34:18,640 --> 01:34:21,120
Speaker 1: about for the most part. And that's that's changing. Have

1587
01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:26,040
Speaker 1: you seen the community kind of start to adapt to that. Yeah,

1588
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:28,719
Speaker 1: you know, since so, you know, I put some content

1589
01:34:28,800 --> 01:34:33,519
Speaker 1: out on my you know, local Twitter, um and and

1590
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:37,240
Speaker 1: and um got some traction there thanks to sort your retweet,

1591
01:34:37,280 --> 01:34:40,200
Speaker 1: I think. But um, but then the biggest thing was

1592
01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:44,240
Speaker 1: that kind of going back to what had happened at

1593
01:34:44,280 --> 01:34:48,360
Speaker 1: my daughter's school, that progress that got worse, if you will.

1594
01:34:48,600 --> 01:34:51,479
Speaker 1: The following day, the Wednesday of last week, some kids

1595
01:34:51,479 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 1: showed up in an actual Confederate stars and bars flag, um,

1596
01:34:55,760 --> 01:35:01,200
Speaker 1: which is yeah, that's nuts. Has famed Confederate state New Mexico.

1597
01:35:03,479 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 1: You know, Messia, New Mexico, which is right down the road.

1598
01:35:06,920 --> 01:35:11,599
Speaker 1: Was it was the capital of the Confederate territory. But yeah,

1599
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:13,640
Speaker 1: but it wasn't a state at that point. It was

1600
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:16,920
Speaker 1: not a state, and I'm not aware of were their

1601
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:19,120
Speaker 1: battles in New Mexico. And I know we had some

1602
01:35:19,240 --> 01:35:21,840
Speaker 1: in like further south Texas than you would think, but

1603
01:35:21,880 --> 01:35:23,920
Speaker 1: I was not there of any. There's a couple there

1604
01:35:23,960 --> 01:35:26,840
Speaker 1: was one of famously up north called the Battle of Greetta,

1605
01:35:27,080 --> 01:35:29,960
Speaker 1: and then and then there was one here where I live.

1606
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:32,639
Speaker 1: Wasn't a battle. It was a bunch of confederates got

1607
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:37,000
Speaker 1: um stranded and super drunk, and then I couldn't cross

1608
01:35:37,080 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 1: the desert fast enough, so they got stranded up in

1609
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:41,639
Speaker 1: the mountains in a place called Baylor Canyon. And then

1610
01:35:42,760 --> 01:35:45,120
Speaker 1: they get to the top and like the North was

1611
01:35:45,200 --> 01:35:47,120
Speaker 1: just sitting there like waiting for them and was like,

1612
01:35:47,240 --> 01:35:51,640
Speaker 1: well you're captured now, We'll see. That's clearly that's some

1613
01:35:51,800 --> 01:35:58,400
Speaker 1: history worth celebrating right there. Yeah. I think that the biggest,

1614
01:35:58,600 --> 01:36:00,960
Speaker 1: like one of the scariest but biggest things is like

1615
01:36:01,160 --> 01:36:03,200
Speaker 1: and this goes towards this is a slight tangent, but

1616
01:36:03,240 --> 01:36:05,800
Speaker 1: like the social studies revision, for instance, in the state

1617
01:36:05,800 --> 01:36:09,519
Speaker 1: of New Mexico. Uh, there are two paragraphs in our

1618
01:36:09,560 --> 01:36:13,960
Speaker 1: history book about the Gaston purchase. Um Like I live

1619
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:20,280
Speaker 1: in the chunk. That is the guest and Purchase, and um,

1620
01:36:20,320 --> 01:36:23,240
Speaker 1: like the guests and Purchase is like James Gaston was

1621
01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:27,240
Speaker 1: a notorious racist who left the South and took all

1622
01:36:27,280 --> 01:36:31,320
Speaker 1: of his railroad money, went to California and Mexico, lobbying hard,

1623
01:36:31,439 --> 01:36:34,000
Speaker 1: using his influence and money to try to create a

1624
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:36,640
Speaker 1: slave state in Baja in Mexico. Like that's what he

1625
01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 1: was trying to do, and like that part of the

1626
01:36:40,400 --> 01:36:42,479
Speaker 1: that part of the context of why the guests and

1627
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:46,280
Speaker 1: Purchase even happened is like totally left out of history books,

1628
01:36:46,320 --> 01:36:48,160
Speaker 1: and its like if anywhere it should be taught, it

1629
01:36:48,160 --> 01:36:50,000
Speaker 1: should be taught in the place that is called the

1630
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:52,120
Speaker 1: guest and Purchase when it comes to the United States.

1631
01:36:52,160 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 1: So anyway, just a little tangent there why it's important

1632
01:36:56,400 --> 01:37:00,280
Speaker 1: to have context in history. Um so sorry, go back

1633
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 1: to my daughter's school and these kids wearing the stupid

1634
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:07,760
Speaker 1: stars and bars so um that. So like I went

1635
01:37:07,800 --> 01:37:10,559
Speaker 1: and spoke to the assistant principle and was like, so

1636
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:14,240
Speaker 1: I understand that your answer to this was to ban

1637
01:37:14,360 --> 01:37:18,040
Speaker 1: all flags and he was like and he was like yeah, yeah, yeah,

1638
01:37:18,040 --> 01:37:20,320
Speaker 1: because they're causing a disruption to education. And I was

1639
01:37:20,360 --> 01:37:23,040
Speaker 1: like yeah, but I you know, I think I feel

1640
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:25,280
Speaker 1: like you're giving a false equivalency to like, you know,

1641
01:37:25,479 --> 01:37:31,840
Speaker 1: gender and and pride acknowledgment to flag. Yeah, it's it's

1642
01:37:31,920 --> 01:37:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it's this constant. This has happened in a

1643
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 1: couple of places, including a town in Oregon, where it's

1644
01:37:36,280 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 1: like this is sort of the the centrist and kind

1645
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:41,200
Speaker 1: of the right wing solution to this. It is just

1646
01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:45,320
Speaker 1: that like, well, if if kids can't wear racist hate flags,

1647
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:48,599
Speaker 1: then gay kids can't wear a flag that says that

1648
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:51,120
Speaker 1: their existence is valid. Uh, you know, because those are

1649
01:37:51,160 --> 01:37:55,400
Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah. Yeah, it's frustrating. It is frustrating.

1650
01:37:55,520 --> 01:37:59,519
Speaker 1: So that was not my favorite thing. Um. And so

1651
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:02,800
Speaker 1: then the culmination of that this week was that my

1652
01:38:02,880 --> 01:38:07,360
Speaker 1: daughter's social studies teacher, who had allowed the kids in

1653
01:38:07,400 --> 01:38:10,599
Speaker 1: her class to make little paper flags after the real

1654
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:17,040
Speaker 1: flags were banned, um, was fired. Jesus Christ. And because

1655
01:38:17,080 --> 01:38:19,599
Speaker 1: it's a personnel matter, no one was willing to tell

1656
01:38:19,640 --> 01:38:22,320
Speaker 1: me more. I've I've called the president of the school

1657
01:38:22,720 --> 01:38:25,320
Speaker 1: school board, who actually, in all fairness, he doesn't actually

1658
01:38:25,320 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 1: probably have that much sway over these kinds of things.

1659
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:29,840
Speaker 1: I would imagine that happened at a level a level

1660
01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:32,760
Speaker 1: that was not his. But yeah, yeah, but I mean,

1661
01:38:32,800 --> 01:38:34,720
Speaker 1: but I but I have anyway, so I did call him.

1662
01:38:34,760 --> 01:38:38,080
Speaker 1: I also called the school and got very little information

1663
01:38:38,120 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 1: from them obviously, so you know who knows. But again,

1664
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:44,600
Speaker 1: like that's how it was perceived from the kids in

1665
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:49,280
Speaker 1: her class. Um, and that's so like what we know

1666
01:38:49,479 --> 01:38:52,400
Speaker 1: happened is that we know that after the flags got banned,

1667
01:38:52,439 --> 01:38:55,360
Speaker 1: she let kids make flags out of paper and hang

1668
01:38:55,439 --> 01:38:58,559
Speaker 1: them up, and by Friday she was gone. So like

1669
01:38:58,720 --> 01:39:03,920
Speaker 1: not a great response, no, not not not ideal not yeah,

1670
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:06,559
Speaker 1: so anyway, that's kind of where we left at. But

1671
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:08,600
Speaker 1: I guess maybe what maybe what I should say to

1672
01:39:08,600 --> 01:39:10,680
Speaker 1: get back to your original question, which is to say, like,

1673
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,960
Speaker 1: have we seen a mobilization that yeah, Like so I

1674
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:19,600
Speaker 1: learned the newspaper the reporter who that teacher like a

1675
01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:22,640
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, had actually been in the newspaper

1676
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:28,040
Speaker 1: because she had also like um, she she spearheaded this

1677
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 1: like response like apport, like a girl who wore her

1678
01:39:30,920 --> 01:39:34,519
Speaker 1: job to school had been bullied, and like when news

1679
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:38,120
Speaker 1: got around in the school, like the like the majority

1680
01:39:38,160 --> 01:39:41,800
Speaker 1: of the student body and this teacher like went up

1681
01:39:41,800 --> 01:39:45,000
Speaker 1: and above out of their way to make her feel

1682
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:46,920
Speaker 1: welcome and like walk her to her class and like

1683
01:39:46,960 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 1: it got kind of viral on local TikTok, so like

1684
01:39:50,320 --> 01:39:52,320
Speaker 1: this teacher got quoted in the newspaper, so I like

1685
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:54,879
Speaker 1: called them. I called the report. I tweeted the newspaper

1686
01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:56,439
Speaker 1: and I was like, like, you guys know that the

1687
01:39:56,439 --> 01:40:00,800
Speaker 1: teacher who was in like startlet in your article is

1688
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:03,640
Speaker 1: fired for allowing kids to waste their thoughts about these

1689
01:40:03,640 --> 01:40:05,840
Speaker 1: flags things, right, And they were like no, we didn't know,

1690
01:40:05,880 --> 01:40:08,880
Speaker 1: And I was like you should probably find more. So

1691
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:10,600
Speaker 1: so you know, I don't know where we're gonna be

1692
01:40:10,600 --> 01:40:14,559
Speaker 1: at now. The next reading for the gender Inclusion policy

1693
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:18,960
Speaker 1: is um December, so we've got a couple of weeks

1694
01:40:18,960 --> 01:40:22,519
Speaker 1: before that next school board meeting. UM. I think that

1695
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:25,080
Speaker 1: on my end, like there's gonna be some local organizing

1696
01:40:25,120 --> 01:40:29,000
Speaker 1: to try to get some better, more inclusive voices to

1697
01:40:29,080 --> 01:40:32,559
Speaker 1: be a part of things. UM. I don't, you know,

1698
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:36,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what the interim will hold, um, because

1699
01:40:36,160 --> 01:40:37,640
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, it's the holidays and there's a

1700
01:40:37,680 --> 01:40:41,519
Speaker 1: lot going on and Kyle rittenhouse and build Black better.

1701
01:40:41,680 --> 01:40:43,200
Speaker 1: I mean there's like, you know, there's always a million

1702
01:40:43,200 --> 01:40:45,760
Speaker 1: things happening, so it'll you know, there will have to

1703
01:40:45,800 --> 01:40:48,000
Speaker 1: be some drum beating to like get people to show

1704
01:40:48,080 --> 01:40:50,200
Speaker 1: up to that. But on the other hand, I think

1705
01:40:50,560 --> 01:40:54,200
Speaker 1: with some of the momentum we have and I think

1706
01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:57,639
Speaker 1: people will show up in mass for the fourteenth um

1707
01:40:57,680 --> 01:41:00,000
Speaker 1: in support at least this is the kind of community

1708
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 1: me that in general we have shown up and shown

1709
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:05,240
Speaker 1: out to support you know, these kinds of issues in

1710
01:41:05,240 --> 01:41:07,320
Speaker 1: the past. But I do think that up until now

1711
01:41:07,880 --> 01:41:11,439
Speaker 1: people felt for pretty asleep about it. Yeah, I mean,

1712
01:41:11,600 --> 01:41:15,360
Speaker 1: and hopefully you do see the kind of response you're expecting.

1713
01:41:15,640 --> 01:41:18,800
Speaker 1: Can you walk me through sort of how the kind

1714
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:21,920
Speaker 1: of attempts like you talked about getting the local media

1715
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:24,439
Speaker 1: aware of what had happened to that teacher, Um, how

1716
01:41:24,479 --> 01:41:27,320
Speaker 1: are people like what is the actual organizing effort look

1717
01:41:27,360 --> 01:41:28,840
Speaker 1: like on the ground, Like how are you trying? How

1718
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:30,720
Speaker 1: are you and others trying to get the word out

1719
01:41:30,800 --> 01:41:34,559
Speaker 1: so that you know there's a response to this. Yeah.

1720
01:41:34,640 --> 01:41:39,960
Speaker 1: So I think that the first thing is is that

1721
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:45,760
Speaker 1: there was there was a problem with the way that

1722
01:41:45,840 --> 01:41:49,720
Speaker 1: the school board handled public comment that first time. In

1723
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:55,080
Speaker 1: an attempt to help limit their own sort of exposure

1724
01:41:55,120 --> 01:41:56,960
Speaker 1: to some of the toxic stuff they knew was coming

1725
01:41:57,000 --> 01:42:01,679
Speaker 1: their way, they had they had instituted UH a limit

1726
01:42:01,840 --> 01:42:06,040
Speaker 1: on public comment. Um, you had to show up by

1727
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:08,080
Speaker 1: a certain time and fill out these little pieces of

1728
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:10,160
Speaker 1: paper saying that you were there to comment about something,

1729
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:12,160
Speaker 1: and if you weren't there, then you couldn't sign up.

1730
01:42:12,439 --> 01:42:15,200
Speaker 1: And the problem was was that all these like old

1731
01:42:15,560 --> 01:42:20,599
Speaker 1: white male retirees who are sitting around listening to Alex

1732
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:23,320
Speaker 1: Jones all day, they had nothing better to do than

1733
01:42:23,360 --> 01:42:25,759
Speaker 1: show up to this meeting at three o'clock in the afternoon,

1734
01:42:26,160 --> 01:42:30,400
Speaker 1: whereas a bunch of for instance, teachers, students, parents, UM,

1735
01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:32,479
Speaker 1: they were busy because they were in school or like

1736
01:42:32,520 --> 01:42:35,800
Speaker 1: picking their kids up from school. UM. So I think

1737
01:42:35,800 --> 01:42:37,160
Speaker 1: one of the things that we're going to try to

1738
01:42:37,160 --> 01:42:41,479
Speaker 1: do is get public comment ahead of time, and we're

1739
01:42:41,479 --> 01:42:44,240
Speaker 1: gonna try to like bombard the not bombard that's that's

1740
01:42:44,240 --> 01:42:46,280
Speaker 1: a violent word. But we're gonna try to like just

1741
01:42:46,360 --> 01:42:50,120
Speaker 1: make sure that UM voices from the community that hadn't

1742
01:42:50,120 --> 01:42:53,120
Speaker 1: been represented are represented and sent to the school board

1743
01:42:53,120 --> 01:42:55,640
Speaker 1: ahead of time. UM. I think we're gonna try to

1744
01:42:55,680 --> 01:42:58,720
Speaker 1: go and save physical space ahead of time for those

1745
01:42:58,720 --> 01:43:00,400
Speaker 1: of us that can write, for those us that can

1746
01:43:00,479 --> 01:43:03,040
Speaker 1: will go, and we'll try to save physical space. And

1747
01:43:03,120 --> 01:43:05,919
Speaker 1: we did learn that even if they keep that policy,

1748
01:43:05,960 --> 01:43:09,760
Speaker 1: for the little forms we can we can actually give

1749
01:43:09,760 --> 01:43:12,000
Speaker 1: that time. We can fill out other people's names, right,

1750
01:43:12,000 --> 01:43:13,680
Speaker 1: So we're gonna try to like make sure that we

1751
01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:16,320
Speaker 1: have better voices. That was one of the things if

1752
01:43:16,320 --> 01:43:18,040
Speaker 1: you listen to the recording of what I said at

1753
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:21,519
Speaker 1: that meeting. Um, I asked the school board president if

1754
01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:24,200
Speaker 1: it's possible for me to yield my time because it

1755
01:43:24,240 --> 01:43:27,760
Speaker 1: had literally been like a dozen white men out there

1756
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:32,080
Speaker 1: spouting nonsense. And then I get up there and I'm like, yeah, hey, um,

1757
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:34,680
Speaker 1: we've heard from enough white men. Can we have like

1758
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:36,880
Speaker 1: a member of the trans community or one of the

1759
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:39,639
Speaker 1: women of color who are here to talk about this, um,

1760
01:43:39,640 --> 01:43:42,320
Speaker 1: but couldn't get here in time. And there they're legal

1761
01:43:42,320 --> 01:43:44,120
Speaker 1: team was like, oh no, that you didn't sign up

1762
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:46,559
Speaker 1: in time or whatever. So um, but it turns out

1763
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 1: we could have put their names down ahead of time.

1764
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 1: So we're gonna try to organize that thing so that

1765
01:43:51,200 --> 01:43:54,360
Speaker 1: people can show up and save you know, physical space. Um.

1766
01:43:54,439 --> 01:43:57,640
Speaker 1: And then UM. I think the other thing too is

1767
01:43:57,720 --> 01:44:00,360
Speaker 1: to try to involve some other local elected office shows

1768
01:44:00,400 --> 01:44:02,880
Speaker 1: from the county and city level, because again, we have

1769
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:06,280
Speaker 1: these really amazing progressive candidates who have come from all

1770
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:09,760
Speaker 1: walks of life, including immigrants and members of the l

1771
01:44:09,800 --> 01:44:13,599
Speaker 1: g B t q A community. UM So having them

1772
01:44:13,720 --> 01:44:17,559
Speaker 1: come and speak in their official capacity, UM I think

1773
01:44:17,560 --> 01:44:20,920
Speaker 1: will carry a lot of weight um for the both

1774
01:44:20,920 --> 01:44:22,799
Speaker 1: for the school board, but also just for the public

1775
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:27,120
Speaker 1: to hear from those voices. Yeah, where are these like?

1776
01:44:27,400 --> 01:44:29,200
Speaker 1: Have you have you gotten any kind of research on

1777
01:44:29,280 --> 01:44:31,479
Speaker 1: where the people showing up are coming from? Are these

1778
01:44:31,520 --> 01:44:34,400
Speaker 1: like folks within your community or these people coming from

1779
01:44:34,479 --> 01:44:37,920
Speaker 1: kind of outlying areas? Um to swarm these meetings? Like?

1780
01:44:38,040 --> 01:44:40,920
Speaker 1: Is there is there kind of an active research contingent.

1781
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:44,080
Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of what I do. It's part

1782
01:44:44,120 --> 01:44:46,400
Speaker 1: of part of my job with Progress Now New Mexico.

1783
01:44:46,560 --> 01:44:49,679
Speaker 1: My my title is Energy Policy Director. I usually spend

1784
01:44:49,760 --> 01:44:52,799
Speaker 1: most of my day talking about oil and gas stuff. However,

1785
01:44:52,840 --> 01:44:55,679
Speaker 1: I've been doing this job long enough that before I

1786
01:44:55,720 --> 01:45:00,160
Speaker 1: became that person, I was actively researching and track a

1787
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:02,400
Speaker 1: lot of white supremacy activity in the in the state,

1788
01:45:02,479 --> 01:45:05,960
Speaker 1: especially along the border, some of the border militia stuff

1789
01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:09,840
Speaker 1: a couple of years back. So in that regard, I

1790
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:12,120
Speaker 1: knew and I knew a number of these folks. A

1791
01:45:12,120 --> 01:45:15,519
Speaker 1: lot of them do live in the city, but so

1792
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:18,240
Speaker 1: our our county is considered rural by the census, even

1793
01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:20,280
Speaker 1: though we're a city of a hundred thousand people. But

1794
01:45:20,720 --> 01:45:23,280
Speaker 1: we're a big county. So there's there's two people here,

1795
01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:26,360
Speaker 1: so um, so there's you know, it's it's hard to

1796
01:45:26,400 --> 01:45:28,400
Speaker 1: tell how many people may or may not have lived in,

1797
01:45:28,680 --> 01:45:31,400
Speaker 1: for instance, the public school district. But what I can

1798
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: tell you, like hands down, is that of those dozen

1799
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:38,200
Speaker 1: folks that spoke before I did, like, there's no way

1800
01:45:38,240 --> 01:45:40,519
Speaker 1: that at least I mean, maybe one or two of

1801
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:42,960
Speaker 1: them had kids that could have gone through the laws

1802
01:45:42,960 --> 01:45:46,280
Speaker 1: cruses public school system, but like the majority of them

1803
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:49,120
Speaker 1: far and away, like either aren't from here at all,

1804
01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:51,759
Speaker 1: or you know, they've lived here for a long time,

1805
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:54,479
Speaker 1: but they are They are not active parents or even

1806
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 1: grandparents of kids that live and will go to school

1807
01:45:57,120 --> 01:46:01,839
Speaker 1: in this in this district. They're just they're just agitated wingers. Yeah,

1808
01:46:01,920 --> 01:46:04,120
Speaker 1: And it's how does this all tie in? Because New

1809
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:06,439
Speaker 1: Mexico's had I think it's kind of been on the

1810
01:46:06,479 --> 01:46:08,880
Speaker 1: back burner in terms of like national attention, but y'all

1811
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:11,640
Speaker 1: have had some really significant dust ups, not just with

1812
01:46:11,800 --> 01:46:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, the border militias, for years there have been

1813
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:17,360
Speaker 1: violent um acts and even murders as the result of

1814
01:46:17,520 --> 01:46:21,240
Speaker 1: that stuff going on. But like during last year's the

1815
01:46:21,320 --> 01:46:24,679
Speaker 1: protest over George Floyd's murder, y'all had some really ugly

1816
01:46:25,400 --> 01:46:28,479
Speaker 1: who's should we the dueling rallies were like right wingers

1817
01:46:28,840 --> 01:46:33,440
Speaker 1: shot at people, um and and some really some nasty situations.

1818
01:46:33,439 --> 01:46:36,240
Speaker 1: I'm wondering, are like those folks like, are you seeing

1819
01:46:36,280 --> 01:46:39,720
Speaker 1: that kind of organization being brought into the school board

1820
01:46:39,760 --> 01:46:42,479
Speaker 1: meeting or is this just kind of bubbling up as

1821
01:46:42,520 --> 01:46:47,400
Speaker 1: part of the same stew it is. Yeah, there, it's

1822
01:46:47,439 --> 01:46:51,920
Speaker 1: loosely affiliated for sure, um and and the crossover, the

1823
01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:56,040
Speaker 1: crossover is hard to tell depend I mean, what am

1824
01:46:56,040 --> 01:46:59,040
Speaker 1: I trying to say? There's there is crossover, It's hard

1825
01:46:59,080 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 1: to tell how on purposes or sort of the fact

1826
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:06,559
Speaker 1: that this is like a small population community states, right,

1827
01:47:06,960 --> 01:47:09,639
Speaker 1: So what I what I mean by that is that

1828
01:47:10,400 --> 01:47:14,400
Speaker 1: some of the some of the physical white supremacists who

1829
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:19,080
Speaker 1: showed up last year at one of our um BLM

1830
01:47:19,200 --> 01:47:24,680
Speaker 1: support you know, George Floyd related peaceful protests, who they

1831
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:27,160
Speaker 1: showed up at a parking lot across the street, you know,

1832
01:47:27,400 --> 01:47:30,679
Speaker 1: armed long guns, tech vests, all that kind of stuff

1833
01:47:31,600 --> 01:47:34,559
Speaker 1: who that those were the folks that when I when

1834
01:47:34,600 --> 01:47:37,439
Speaker 1: I went and filmed them and put them on blast

1835
01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:40,599
Speaker 1: to to try and sort of out them as best

1836
01:47:40,680 --> 01:47:44,400
Speaker 1: we possibly could, or at least identify them. Um, they

1837
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:47,800
Speaker 1: came back and docked me as and then went after

1838
01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:51,360
Speaker 1: UM a number of my colleagues up north in Albuquerque.

1839
01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:54,519
Speaker 1: That was about a week before there was the there

1840
01:47:54,520 --> 01:47:57,679
Speaker 1: was a shooting of of a UM anti fascist protester

1841
01:47:57,800 --> 01:48:01,680
Speaker 1: in Albuquerque, And it was during sort of all of

1842
01:48:01,680 --> 01:48:04,800
Speaker 1: that stuff that I was like trying to talk about

1843
01:48:04,800 --> 01:48:08,519
Speaker 1: all this out loud um and got tied into a

1844
01:48:08,560 --> 01:48:10,920
Speaker 1: few more other anti fascist voices in the state. So

1845
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:13,760
Speaker 1: since then we've all been kind of working together. Um.

1846
01:48:13,800 --> 01:48:17,439
Speaker 1: We found each other on Twitter, thankfully. And so so

1847
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:19,679
Speaker 1: what it seems like is is that like the folks

1848
01:48:19,680 --> 01:48:23,680
Speaker 1: that showed up to the school board meeting were what

1849
01:48:23,760 --> 01:48:28,360
Speaker 1: I'll call usual suspects, like politically active old you know,

1850
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 1: right wingers. That being said, UM, in that room, there

1851
01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:37,839
Speaker 1: were a number of people that I've identified as showing

1852
01:48:37,960 --> 01:48:42,080
Speaker 1: up to anti vax rallies, a number of the Trump

1853
01:48:42,120 --> 01:48:45,559
Speaker 1: train rallies that happened last year before the election, and

1854
01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:51,120
Speaker 1: at least one person who I recognized as being I

1855
01:48:51,120 --> 01:48:54,920
Speaker 1: have never seen carry firearm, but like has been at

1856
01:48:55,400 --> 01:48:58,439
Speaker 1: rallies where people were carrying firearms and that kind of thing,

1857
01:48:58,680 --> 01:49:01,000
Speaker 1: um in response to these you know, in response to

1858
01:49:01,000 --> 01:49:05,679
Speaker 1: like peaceful protests. So there is crossover for sure. Where

1859
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:08,000
Speaker 1: do you see this going, like, because you've been kind

1860
01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,160
Speaker 1: of paying attention to this for a while, not just

1861
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:13,160
Speaker 1: the school board stuff, but just kind of the general

1862
01:49:13,200 --> 01:49:16,840
Speaker 1: problem of right wing UM organizing in your area, Like

1863
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:18,760
Speaker 1: where do you where do you see this heading within

1864
01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:22,280
Speaker 1: kind of the context of New Mexico. Well, I mean,

1865
01:49:22,400 --> 01:49:26,400
Speaker 1: so we haven't really talked about this, but like, so, well,

1866
01:49:26,720 --> 01:49:29,360
Speaker 1: while here in Los Cruces, we did really well, um

1867
01:49:29,479 --> 01:49:32,599
Speaker 1: during the November election in terms of our school board

1868
01:49:32,600 --> 01:49:36,320
Speaker 1: to be re elected a really good progressive school board

1869
01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:40,280
Speaker 1: president and two new good progressive candidates, including, like I said,

1870
01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:43,679
Speaker 1: the first you know, queer openly queer person. So that's amazing. However,

1871
01:49:43,920 --> 01:49:47,960
Speaker 1: up in Albuquerque, Uh, they lost seats to some of

1872
01:49:48,000 --> 01:49:52,360
Speaker 1: these far right wing UM candidates and um, so the

1873
01:49:52,360 --> 01:49:58,519
Speaker 1: Albuquerque school board is um not um not looking as

1874
01:49:58,600 --> 01:50:02,360
Speaker 1: good politically. So, I mean, so on the like I

1875
01:50:02,360 --> 01:50:04,240
Speaker 1: guess what i'd say is on the soft end, what

1876
01:50:04,320 --> 01:50:09,759
Speaker 1: I expect is more continued pressure in sort of the um,

1877
01:50:10,680 --> 01:50:13,360
Speaker 1: the way these things are supposed to happen, which is

1878
01:50:13,400 --> 01:50:16,519
Speaker 1: to say, like continued presence of the right wing folks

1879
01:50:16,640 --> 01:50:20,679
Speaker 1: at meetings, yelling, taking up space, UM, slowing things down,

1880
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:23,599
Speaker 1: running for office when the time comes, you know, those

1881
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:26,400
Speaker 1: kinds of things I see. UM, I guess I wouldn't

1882
01:50:26,400 --> 01:50:30,479
Speaker 1: be surprised though, if UM, if I if there were

1883
01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:35,439
Speaker 1: further escalation of things UM in a you know, in

1884
01:50:35,760 --> 01:50:37,960
Speaker 1: the way we've seen other places, in terms of some

1885
01:50:38,040 --> 01:50:41,719
Speaker 1: sort of you know, an armed response or somebody showing up. Um.

1886
01:50:42,640 --> 01:50:44,400
Speaker 1: You know, in New Mexico's an open carry state, and

1887
01:50:44,439 --> 01:50:47,600
Speaker 1: so people can walk around with guns all the time. Um.

1888
01:50:47,880 --> 01:50:50,559
Speaker 1: And and you know, I mean that's the thing too,

1889
01:50:50,600 --> 01:50:52,320
Speaker 1: is like, while I didn't see anybody with an open

1890
01:50:52,320 --> 01:50:54,800
Speaker 1: carried firearm at the school board meeting, there were guys

1891
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:58,760
Speaker 1: wearing like, you know, Vortex Optics brand hats, thin blue

1892
01:50:58,760 --> 01:51:01,000
Speaker 1: line shirts, a guy with that like Remington's shirt, you know,

1893
01:51:01,280 --> 01:51:04,000
Speaker 1: And like, I don't regret anybody from gun culture. I'm

1894
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a lefty with a gun. So it's

1895
01:51:05,760 --> 01:51:09,280
Speaker 1: like I get gun culture. But like when you show

1896
01:51:09,400 --> 01:51:11,880
Speaker 1: up in those things and then those spaces with that

1897
01:51:11,960 --> 01:51:15,880
Speaker 1: kind of yeah you're making a point yep, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1898
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:21,439
Speaker 1: you're you're you're not Yeah, I get that. Um, have

1899
01:51:21,640 --> 01:51:23,680
Speaker 1: you is there some kind of have you seen like

1900
01:51:24,160 --> 01:51:27,519
Speaker 1: any kind of budding left wing armed response? Like, is

1901
01:51:27,520 --> 01:51:29,600
Speaker 1: there do you guys have like an organized group of

1902
01:51:29,600 --> 01:51:31,920
Speaker 1: folks who have been showing up? Um? When there are

1903
01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:36,360
Speaker 1: armed protests in the area. Um, I mean I always

1904
01:51:36,400 --> 01:51:39,920
Speaker 1: have my gear with me. UM. I mean, I've got

1905
01:51:40,080 --> 01:51:42,320
Speaker 1: I've got a ceramic plate, I've got my you know,

1906
01:51:42,479 --> 01:51:45,320
Speaker 1: rifle and pistol. I I am a member of a

1907
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:47,080
Speaker 1: number of different groups. I've been a member of the

1908
01:51:47,200 --> 01:51:51,040
Speaker 1: s R A, UM, I've I've worked with some of

1909
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:53,519
Speaker 1: the armed groups up in Albuquerque. So down here there

1910
01:51:53,520 --> 01:51:56,439
Speaker 1: hasn't been a ton but UM, I've got a I've

1911
01:51:56,439 --> 01:51:58,920
Speaker 1: got what I'll call a luciffiliation with a number of folks,

1912
01:51:58,960 --> 01:52:01,519
Speaker 1: and I would trust to to be armed if need be.

1913
01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:06,120
Speaker 1: Thankfully that hasn't happened yet. Thankfully, the one big, big

1914
01:52:06,160 --> 01:52:08,439
Speaker 1: protests that happened here in Las Cruces that I was

1915
01:52:08,880 --> 01:52:11,040
Speaker 1: sort of nervous about, and I did have my gear

1916
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:14,800
Speaker 1: for remained peaceful and and we you know, we took

1917
01:52:14,840 --> 01:52:17,320
Speaker 1: over some streets since blocks traffic for a couple hours,

1918
01:52:17,439 --> 01:52:20,679
Speaker 1: and there was never any violent response from anybody other

1919
01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:22,960
Speaker 1: than maybe like one car at one point trying to

1920
01:52:22,960 --> 01:52:25,600
Speaker 1: push through and car got banged on, and that was

1921
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:30,880
Speaker 1: about it. But um, so so, so, to answer your question, like, yes,

1922
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:33,439
Speaker 1: there are those of us that are left wing and armed,

1923
01:52:33,600 --> 01:52:37,280
Speaker 1: and there are those of us that have been able

1924
01:52:37,320 --> 01:52:39,720
Speaker 1: to show out if we needed to. Thankfully we haven't

1925
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:43,240
Speaker 1: had too at this point. Yeah, well, all right, I

1926
01:52:43,280 --> 01:52:45,120
Speaker 1: think that's everything I had to ask. Is there anything

1927
01:52:45,120 --> 01:52:47,040
Speaker 1: else you wanted to to get to to make sure

1928
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:50,000
Speaker 1: to talk about today? Well, I just I mean, I

1929
01:52:50,280 --> 01:52:53,040
Speaker 1: would be I would be um not doing the best

1930
01:52:53,040 --> 01:52:55,519
Speaker 1: of my job if I didn't mention the fact that,

1931
01:52:55,560 --> 01:52:58,400
Speaker 1: like one of the so one of the talking points

1932
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:01,080
Speaker 1: of the right wing here and our school board is

1933
01:53:01,120 --> 01:53:06,360
Speaker 1: that New Mexico's education system is is fifty feet in

1934
01:53:06,400 --> 01:53:09,360
Speaker 1: the country, and I the the my assumption is that

1935
01:53:09,360 --> 01:53:13,680
Speaker 1: that has to do with DC's public schools being counted. Um.

1936
01:53:13,800 --> 01:53:16,639
Speaker 1: So it's not a great Yeah, that's not a great record.

1937
01:53:17,000 --> 01:53:19,920
Speaker 1: It's not a it's not a great record. And um

1938
01:53:20,000 --> 01:53:22,240
Speaker 1: and and I and I you know, as a parent

1939
01:53:22,320 --> 01:53:25,320
Speaker 1: of a kid who's in the public schools. I uh,

1940
01:53:25,360 --> 01:53:27,760
Speaker 1: you know, I cannot ignore that, right. That's so that's

1941
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:30,439
Speaker 1: a legitimate talking point. But the but the thing that

1942
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:32,559
Speaker 1: they want to bring it about is that you know, there,

1943
01:53:33,840 --> 01:53:36,599
Speaker 1: you know, it's because we're trying to be gender inclusive.

1944
01:53:36,680 --> 01:53:40,639
Speaker 1: It's because we're trying to like you know, teach kids

1945
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:44,519
Speaker 1: about like actual history that happened whatever. Um. And the

1946
01:53:44,560 --> 01:53:48,839
Speaker 1: reality is it's because our education system is, unlike most places,

1947
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:54,120
Speaker 1: funded by the oil and guests industry and not by

1948
01:53:54,160 --> 01:53:58,880
Speaker 1: like our communities. Um. And so like you know, eighteen

1949
01:53:58,880 --> 01:54:03,280
Speaker 1: months ago, oil prices crashed, right and the State of

1950
01:54:03,280 --> 01:54:06,080
Speaker 1: New Mexico had to have an emergency special session for

1951
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:07,880
Speaker 1: our legislature to figure out how we were gonna like

1952
01:54:08,400 --> 01:54:13,080
Speaker 1: fund things like cops and schools and like whatever. Um.

1953
01:54:13,160 --> 01:54:15,720
Speaker 1: And then like now, you know, oil and gas is

1954
01:54:15,760 --> 01:54:18,519
Speaker 1: like gangbusters and where you know, record prices, and like

1955
01:54:18,840 --> 01:54:21,280
Speaker 1: the State of Mexico has this like surplus budget. But

1956
01:54:21,360 --> 01:54:24,479
Speaker 1: the thing is is that like that that extra money

1957
01:54:24,479 --> 01:54:26,439
Speaker 1: that we're gonna get this time doesn't make up for

1958
01:54:26,479 --> 01:54:29,639
Speaker 1: the like cyclical bad you know way that we fund

1959
01:54:29,680 --> 01:54:32,440
Speaker 1: our schools. So I just want to like tie in that,

1960
01:54:32,600 --> 01:54:36,680
Speaker 1: like like all of these things tie in together, right,

1961
01:54:36,680 --> 01:54:39,120
Speaker 1: Like we can't talk about education in New Mexico without

1962
01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:43,120
Speaker 1: talking about the oil and gas funding and so anyway,

1963
01:54:43,200 --> 01:54:45,920
Speaker 1: so like because that's my you know, that's part of

1964
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:48,040
Speaker 1: the reason why I was going to go talk about

1965
01:54:48,080 --> 01:54:51,160
Speaker 1: this stuff at the on my professional level, is that

1966
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:55,000
Speaker 1: like I get to talk about education as an as

1967
01:54:55,000 --> 01:54:57,800
Speaker 1: an energy expert in the state of New Mexico because

1968
01:54:58,600 --> 01:55:03,720
Speaker 1: energy and education so intertwined here. Um and like when

1969
01:55:03,720 --> 01:55:07,880
Speaker 1: you have literal like Cooke Brothers founded UM and and

1970
01:55:08,440 --> 01:55:11,640
Speaker 1: UM like monetarily supplied think tanks in the state of

1971
01:55:11,720 --> 01:55:15,760
Speaker 1: New Mexico who are pushing out this kind of propaganda

1972
01:55:15,800 --> 01:55:18,960
Speaker 1: and encouraging people. So that there's a group called the

1973
01:55:19,040 --> 01:55:22,760
Speaker 1: Rio Grand Foundation and like another one called Power of

1974
01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:26,640
Speaker 1: the Future uh PTA, Power the Future in New Mexico.

1975
01:55:26,880 --> 01:55:30,640
Speaker 1: Like both of those organizations are like tied to the

1976
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:33,200
Speaker 1: Cooke Brothers because the Kokee Brothers are tied to oil

1977
01:55:33,720 --> 01:55:37,800
Speaker 1: and they're pushing these right wing talking points UM and

1978
01:55:37,840 --> 01:55:39,920
Speaker 1: it's all part and parcel of just like you know,

1979
01:55:40,080 --> 01:55:43,360
Speaker 1: clouding the information space. That's what they want to do.

1980
01:55:43,400 --> 01:55:45,120
Speaker 1: They want to have, they want to have the new

1981
01:55:45,200 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 1: cycle dominated with things like CRT and gender inclusion studies

1982
01:55:48,520 --> 01:55:52,240
Speaker 1: to you know, to tie up things like school boards

1983
01:55:52,560 --> 01:55:55,640
Speaker 1: so that so that the electorate is busy talking about

1984
01:55:55,680 --> 01:55:58,200
Speaker 1: these things. Well meanwhile, they're just raking in money, hand

1985
01:55:58,280 --> 01:56:04,120
Speaker 1: over fist, um, you know, stealing our oil. So anyway,

1986
01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:06,760
Speaker 1: I just that's so important to me to like make

1987
01:56:06,840 --> 01:56:10,840
Speaker 1: those connections, um, especially in this state. And it's something

1988
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:13,600
Speaker 1: that a lot of people don't consider and don't think about,

1989
01:56:13,760 --> 01:56:16,080
Speaker 1: and it's just really important to me that people understand that.

1990
01:56:16,200 --> 01:56:20,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, UM, all right, well, thank you so much, Lucas.

1991
01:56:20,480 --> 01:56:23,960
Speaker 1: This has been I'm not gonna say fun, but certainly

1992
01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:26,959
Speaker 1: enlightening and I think valuable. A good a good dispatch

1993
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:30,560
Speaker 1: from you know, a fight that we we continue to

1994
01:56:30,560 --> 01:56:33,240
Speaker 1: see is important here and that everybody should be paying

1995
01:56:33,240 --> 01:56:36,879
Speaker 1: attention to both wherever it happens, including in Los Cruses

1996
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:41,000
Speaker 1: and around the country. Um, because they ain't given up, um,

1997
01:56:41,360 --> 01:56:45,880
Speaker 1: and they can't be ignored. Um. Yeah. And that's you've

1998
01:56:45,920 --> 01:56:48,720
Speaker 1: mentioned this many times over the years, but like that's

1999
01:56:48,720 --> 01:56:52,240
Speaker 1: the kind of thing is like we have to show up. Um. Yeah,

2000
01:56:52,280 --> 01:56:55,280
Speaker 1: we can't just let them have these spaces. Um. And

2001
01:56:55,320 --> 01:56:57,840
Speaker 1: I think that this this past school board meeting was

2002
01:56:57,840 --> 01:57:01,640
Speaker 1: a great example of why. UM. And and I'm I'm

2003
01:57:01,640 --> 01:57:04,000
Speaker 1: really counting on a lot of my my, my friends

2004
01:57:04,080 --> 01:57:06,600
Speaker 1: and and close you know, the folks that I have

2005
01:57:06,680 --> 01:57:09,640
Speaker 1: come to love and support in this community, UM, to

2006
01:57:09,720 --> 01:57:12,320
Speaker 1: show up and show out for that, because that's you know,

2007
01:57:12,360 --> 01:57:14,000
Speaker 1: we've been there, right we Like I said, you know,

2008
01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:16,400
Speaker 1: and if you look up Los Cruises politics over the

2009
01:57:16,480 --> 01:57:18,560
Speaker 1: years on the news cycle, like you'll see stories about

2010
01:57:18,560 --> 01:57:22,040
Speaker 1: our you know, progressive city council and passing a living

2011
01:57:22,080 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 1: wage and you know, beanding classic bags. I mean like

2012
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:26,600
Speaker 1: all these like you know, we've we've tried, we've we've

2013
01:57:26,600 --> 01:57:30,240
Speaker 1: tried to be that kind of little community and and

2014
01:57:30,240 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 1: and yet you know, these folks are still there and

2015
01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:34,960
Speaker 1: they're still allowed and if we give them the space,

2016
01:57:35,040 --> 01:57:38,840
Speaker 1: they will take those spaces over. So yeah, yeah, absolutely,

2017
01:57:39,200 --> 01:57:41,480
Speaker 1: So thanks for having me on. Let me talk about this. Yeah,

2018
01:57:41,720 --> 01:57:44,000
Speaker 1: it really means a lot. Thank you for stepping up,

2019
01:57:44,040 --> 01:57:46,080
Speaker 1: because it is this is the thing that's a giant

2020
01:57:46,120 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 1: pain in the butt, um, is that everybody's got a

2021
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:52,120
Speaker 1: lot going on. Life is complicated. There's all sorts of

2022
01:57:52,120 --> 01:57:54,760
Speaker 1: shipped to do in the old world. UM. But every

2023
01:57:54,800 --> 01:57:59,800
Speaker 1: time these fascists and their their affiliates decide they're going

2024
01:57:59,880 --> 01:58:02,640
Speaker 1: to try to take over something. You know, as busy

2025
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:04,760
Speaker 1: as people are, as exhausting as it is, you do

2026
01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:06,760
Speaker 1: have to like they can't just be able to have

2027
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:08,880
Speaker 1: to do it. Like That's how they win, is they

2028
01:58:08,920 --> 01:58:12,080
Speaker 1: have they have unlimited energy for this ship and um,

2029
01:58:12,120 --> 01:58:14,440
Speaker 1: if they're not like the thing that causes them to

2030
01:58:14,480 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 1: lose energy is actually um being outnumbered and shown to

2031
01:58:20,400 --> 01:58:25,360
Speaker 1: be like like like being kind of pushed out by communities. Um,

2032
01:58:25,520 --> 01:58:28,160
Speaker 1: you can do it. It takes it, but it requires

2033
01:58:28,160 --> 01:58:32,880
Speaker 1: people showing up. Yes, that's exactly right. So UM, I

2034
01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:36,360
Speaker 1: appreciate the signal boost means a lot to me. Uh

2035
01:58:36,480 --> 01:58:40,000
Speaker 1: and this, are there any local organs that people can support?

2036
01:58:40,680 --> 01:58:43,080
Speaker 1: So big shout out to a group called Cafe here

2037
01:58:43,080 --> 01:58:46,080
Speaker 1: in Las Cruces that works on all kinds of border

2038
01:58:46,120 --> 01:58:51,040
Speaker 1: issues immigrant rights but also like workers rights and um immigrants,

2039
01:58:51,360 --> 01:58:54,960
Speaker 1: like student rights, migrant student rights. Um, they've been very

2040
01:58:55,000 --> 01:58:58,640
Speaker 1: active in this for a long time. UM. And so yeah,

2041
01:58:58,680 --> 01:59:02,480
Speaker 1: I definitely shout out Cafe uh here in here in

2042
01:59:02,560 --> 01:59:04,320
Speaker 1: I mean all of New Mexico, but specifically it's set

2043
01:59:04,360 --> 01:59:05,680
Speaker 1: in New Mexico. They're doing a lot of work. And

2044
01:59:05,680 --> 01:59:09,440
Speaker 1: then um, uh Dreams in Action, which is part of

2045
01:59:09,480 --> 01:59:13,000
Speaker 1: a national network for dreamers. But again here in New

2046
01:59:13,000 --> 01:59:16,120
Speaker 1: Mexico have done a lot of good work. Okay, yeah,

2047
01:59:16,120 --> 01:59:18,840
Speaker 1: thank you very much, Lucas. All right, um, and that

2048
01:59:19,000 --> 01:59:21,040
Speaker 1: is going to do it for us here. It could

2049
01:59:21,120 --> 01:59:26,560
Speaker 1: happen here. Um, until next time, go, uh, I don't know,

2050
01:59:28,520 --> 01:59:31,920
Speaker 1: hang out at a school board meeting. Go take up

2051
01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:34,600
Speaker 1: space from fascists. Yeah, go take up space from fascists

2052
01:59:34,640 --> 01:59:51,680
Speaker 1: in general. Welcome back to it could happen here. The

2053
01:59:51,720 --> 01:59:55,560
Speaker 1: podcast about you know, the problems and stuff that are

2054
01:59:55,600 --> 01:59:58,400
Speaker 1: happening and how to maybe make them better and speaking

2055
01:59:58,440 --> 02:00:00,320
Speaker 1: of the problems that are happening and how to make

2056
02:00:00,400 --> 02:00:07,720
Speaker 1: him better Garrison Davis, Hi, Hello, that's so that's a

2057
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:10,720
Speaker 1: weird segue. I wanted to introduce this video telling you

2058
02:00:10,720 --> 02:00:12,560
Speaker 1: guys that I just watched a movie that you should

2059
02:00:12,560 --> 02:00:15,360
Speaker 1: watch because it's pretty rad and it's ties into all

2060
02:00:15,400 --> 02:00:18,080
Speaker 1: the things we talk about. It's all the Pizza Gate massacre.

2061
02:00:18,520 --> 02:00:22,360
Speaker 1: And I didn't know it is a micro budget under

2062
02:00:22,400 --> 02:00:25,560
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars film. It looks great. They did

2063
02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:28,240
Speaker 1: a really good job with the budget they had. About

2064
02:00:28,600 --> 02:00:33,200
Speaker 1: um an Alex Jones employee type person and a mass

2065
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:36,840
Speaker 1: shooter who go looking for UH to try to solve

2066
02:00:36,880 --> 02:00:40,280
Speaker 1: the Pizza Gate things. Oh boy, it is a an

2067
02:00:40,320 --> 02:00:46,400
Speaker 1: actually very nuanced and I think deeply knowledgeable commentary on

2068
02:00:46,480 --> 02:00:52,040
Speaker 1: specifically like the Texan conspiracy scene. Like it's a like film.

2069
02:00:52,080 --> 02:00:54,560
Speaker 1: They're Alex Jones character who's played by a woman in this.

2070
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:57,400
Speaker 1: They film in the original studio that he recorded in

2071
02:00:57,440 --> 02:01:01,440
Speaker 1: back in then. Like the filmmaker who did this gets

2072
02:01:02,040 --> 02:01:04,160
Speaker 1: like the culture in the area and kind of the

2073
02:01:04,200 --> 02:01:07,160
Speaker 1: relationship between the people who get radicalized and do ship

2074
02:01:07,320 --> 02:01:09,080
Speaker 1: and the people who just profit from it. It's a

2075
02:01:09,240 --> 02:01:12,400
Speaker 1: very good Um it's it is, by the way, a

2076
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:15,560
Speaker 1: grindhouse horror movie. Like whatever you're expecting, It's not that

2077
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:20,120
Speaker 1: it is, like it is an incredibly gory grindhouse movie. Um,

2078
02:01:20,160 --> 02:01:22,880
Speaker 1: but it's it's pretty it's pretty fun. What does that

2079
02:01:22,960 --> 02:01:25,640
Speaker 1: have to do with? Nothing at all? But it has

2080
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:27,440
Speaker 1: a lot to do with it could happen here, because

2081
02:01:29,000 --> 02:01:33,440
Speaker 1: all right, well we'll watch it anyway. Um, this is

2082
02:01:33,440 --> 02:01:35,280
Speaker 1: that could happen here? A show about how things are

2083
02:01:35,320 --> 02:01:37,680
Speaker 1: kind of falling apart and how we can then maybe

2084
02:01:37,680 --> 02:01:43,000
Speaker 1: slow that down or prepare for an uncertain future. UM

2085
02:01:43,200 --> 02:01:46,320
Speaker 1: episode about cops, right, I mean, I mean we are

2086
02:01:46,480 --> 02:01:50,720
Speaker 1: we are planning an episode in Washington State patrol. Um.

2087
02:01:50,800 --> 02:01:53,360
Speaker 1: But no, this is episode is a different a different

2088
02:01:53,440 --> 02:01:58,400
Speaker 1: kind of cop about just as useful. Um. So in

2089
02:01:58,240 --> 02:02:01,440
Speaker 1: the first half episodes of the The Daily Show or

2090
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:04,080
Speaker 1: season two, which if you haven't listened to you should

2091
02:02:04,080 --> 02:02:06,680
Speaker 1: definitely listen to those as they kind of act as

2092
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:10,840
Speaker 1: our show's manifesto of sorts. But nevertheless, the first time

2093
02:02:10,880 --> 02:02:15,200
Speaker 1: episodes of the scripted Daily Show put forth like a

2094
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:18,520
Speaker 1: more like realistic, non sugarcoated look at what climate change

2095
02:02:18,760 --> 02:02:21,920
Speaker 1: will bring if we continue on our current course. Um.

2096
02:02:22,000 --> 02:02:25,040
Speaker 1: But not just looking at the obvious environmental and extreme

2097
02:02:25,080 --> 02:02:29,120
Speaker 1: weather effects, but also like the socio political effects. So

2098
02:02:29,560 --> 02:02:31,720
Speaker 1: when I was helping Robert out with the research for

2099
02:02:31,800 --> 02:02:35,320
Speaker 1: those episodes, some of the best indicators of like the

2100
02:02:35,360 --> 02:02:39,680
Speaker 1: mainstream conception of the scientific, environmental and political status of

2101
02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:44,240
Speaker 1: climate change was at the United Nations past uh I

2102
02:02:44,240 --> 02:02:48,000
Speaker 1: I PCC reports, which is the inter Governmental Panel on

2103
02:02:48,080 --> 02:02:53,320
Speaker 1: Climate change and the COP conferences. So during the first

2104
02:02:53,320 --> 02:02:57,400
Speaker 1: few weeks of this past November, of November one, the

2105
02:02:57,600 --> 02:03:03,320
Speaker 1: twenty six annual COP comp Friends took place in Glasgow. Um.

2106
02:03:03,360 --> 02:03:05,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, the name of the conference is kind of

2107
02:03:05,560 --> 02:03:09,880
Speaker 1: a decent indication on how useful these things actually are. Um.

2108
02:03:09,920 --> 02:03:13,600
Speaker 1: But a COPS stands for a conference of the parties,

2109
02:03:14,160 --> 02:03:16,120
Speaker 1: and for almost three decades they've been like the main

2110
02:03:16,280 --> 02:03:22,240
Speaker 1: international stage uh for for countries and companies to discuss

2111
02:03:22,320 --> 02:03:26,600
Speaker 1: climate related information. And like they're alleged like goals. Um,

2112
02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:30,560
Speaker 1: so yeah, they're a good indicator, not onlike sometimes they

2113
02:03:30,560 --> 02:03:34,600
Speaker 1: do present actual good science and like decent predictions, but

2114
02:03:34,640 --> 02:03:37,320
Speaker 1: they're often just like a good indication of what kind

2115
02:03:37,320 --> 02:03:41,560
Speaker 1: of the mainstream people think about what climate change is,

2116
02:03:42,120 --> 02:03:43,960
Speaker 1: and you know what the people in power, how they

2117
02:03:43,960 --> 02:03:47,120
Speaker 1: are viewing it and how urgent they think it's worth

2118
02:03:47,120 --> 02:03:49,520
Speaker 1: addressing versus how much money they want to spend on it.

2119
02:03:50,120 --> 02:03:56,120
Speaker 1: So the most notable cop in recent memory was in

2120
02:03:56,520 --> 02:03:59,880
Speaker 1: Paris cop one. This is kind of where the pair

2121
02:03:59,880 --> 02:04:03,600
Speaker 1: of climate accords were born. Uh. The commitment was to

2122
02:04:03,640 --> 02:04:06,600
Speaker 1: aim for one point five degrees of warming, and it

2123
02:04:06,680 --> 02:04:09,360
Speaker 1: was signed on by nearly all major countries. Of course,

2124
02:04:09,400 --> 02:04:13,360
Speaker 1: the US signed on left then resigned on. But anyway,

2125
02:04:13,680 --> 02:04:17,840
Speaker 1: under the Paris Agreement, countries committed to bring forth like

2126
02:04:17,880 --> 02:04:21,720
Speaker 1: a national plans uh figuring figuring out how they would

2127
02:04:21,720 --> 02:04:24,960
Speaker 1: reduce their missions, but they would do it like by themselves,

2128
02:04:25,000 --> 02:04:27,360
Speaker 1: and they would be called n d c s or

2129
02:04:27,480 --> 02:04:31,840
Speaker 1: nationally determined contributions. And the idea was for every five

2130
02:04:31,920 --> 02:04:35,760
Speaker 1: years countries would gather up and present their current plans

2131
02:04:35,800 --> 02:04:39,520
Speaker 1: on the national stage. This was what COPPY was going

2132
02:04:39,560 --> 02:04:41,480
Speaker 1: to be. Now it was delayed a year because of

2133
02:04:41,520 --> 02:04:44,400
Speaker 1: the pandemic, but COP twenty six was the time for

2134
02:04:44,640 --> 02:04:49,160
Speaker 1: countries to present their n d c s on for like,

2135
02:04:49,200 --> 02:04:53,200
Speaker 1: their updated versions on their plans to reduce some missions.

2136
02:04:53,280 --> 02:04:57,200
Speaker 1: So most of the NDCs got submitted before the conference

2137
02:04:57,240 --> 02:05:00,000
Speaker 1: and kind of led the discussion of the conference UH

2138
02:05:00,200 --> 02:05:04,600
Speaker 1: by like mid October. UH, I think about uh of

2139
02:05:04,640 --> 02:05:08,800
Speaker 1: the countries or states that signed onto the Paris Agreement

2140
02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:12,720
Speaker 1: submitted their submitted their version of the NDCs and and

2141
02:05:12,720 --> 02:05:15,200
Speaker 1: and those countries about a hundred and forty of them

2142
02:05:15,360 --> 02:05:20,080
Speaker 1: are responsible for the majority of global emissions. So that

2143
02:05:20,160 --> 02:05:22,960
Speaker 1: that that was what kind of led up to two

2144
02:05:23,280 --> 02:05:28,520
Speaker 1: copy from happening UM and the the overarching aim of

2145
02:05:28,640 --> 02:05:33,880
Speaker 1: the conference according to President Um, when I try to

2146
02:05:33,920 --> 02:05:39,640
Speaker 1: pronounce this name, um outlock sharma Um. He said that

2147
02:05:39,680 --> 02:05:41,960
Speaker 1: the the the idea for the conference was to like

2148
02:05:42,200 --> 02:05:48,200
Speaker 1: keep alive the Paris Agreements target to keep global temperatures

2149
02:05:48,200 --> 02:05:53,720
Speaker 1: from rising above one point five degrees celsius above pre

2150
02:05:53,800 --> 02:05:56,840
Speaker 1: industrial levels. So that was that was like the goal

2151
02:05:57,040 --> 02:05:59,400
Speaker 1: of the conference going into it was to kind of

2152
02:05:59,480 --> 02:06:01,920
Speaker 1: keep the idea of the Paris Climate Accords of still

2153
02:06:01,960 --> 02:06:05,920
Speaker 1: being achievable. UM. And that's and that's not what happened

2154
02:06:05,960 --> 02:06:08,960
Speaker 1: at the top twenties. So um, now it's it's it's

2155
02:06:09,000 --> 02:06:12,440
Speaker 1: important to kind of point out that the commitments laid

2156
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:16,360
Speaker 1: out in the Paris Accords don't come close to limiting

2157
02:06:16,480 --> 02:06:18,680
Speaker 1: global warming to one point five degrees, as it is

2158
02:06:18,680 --> 02:06:22,200
Speaker 1: said in the accords, like they they acknowledge that, um,

2159
02:06:22,200 --> 02:06:24,760
Speaker 1: which is what the kind of NDCs are for. But

2160
02:06:24,840 --> 02:06:27,200
Speaker 1: even still those are just non those are those are

2161
02:06:27,240 --> 02:06:31,160
Speaker 1: just non binding agreements. But anyway, so the cord the

2162
02:06:31,200 --> 02:06:34,200
Speaker 1: accords and the restrictions and goals and well there's no

2163
02:06:34,240 --> 02:06:36,960
Speaker 1: restrictions as just goals. The goals and them don't don't

2164
02:06:36,960 --> 02:06:39,480
Speaker 1: come close to limiting to one point five degrees. And

2165
02:06:39,560 --> 02:06:42,120
Speaker 1: we have already most likely shot way past the point

2166
02:06:42,120 --> 02:06:45,560
Speaker 1: of that being in any way achievable. Um. But you know,

2167
02:06:45,600 --> 02:06:48,240
Speaker 1: we can still limit things from being megabad like four

2168
02:06:48,280 --> 02:06:52,200
Speaker 1: degrees but we are we are already on a certain path.

2169
02:06:52,800 --> 02:06:57,160
Speaker 1: So in in asking nations to set tougher targets by

2170
02:06:57,680 --> 02:07:01,280
Speaker 1: next year for cutting climate warming emissions, the new agreement

2171
02:07:01,480 --> 02:07:05,280
Speaker 1: at Glasgow acknowledge that the commitments that were in place

2172
02:07:05,360 --> 02:07:10,080
Speaker 1: are inadequate, and if rigorously followed, the the new national

2173
02:07:10,120 --> 02:07:13,680
Speaker 1: pledges so include the stuff including the Paris Accords and

2174
02:07:13,720 --> 02:07:17,040
Speaker 1: the new Glasgow packed um and all of the individual

2175
02:07:17,200 --> 02:07:20,120
Speaker 1: like uh N d C s. If all of those

2176
02:07:20,160 --> 02:07:23,440
Speaker 1: are followed, the world is now on track for a

2177
02:07:23,640 --> 02:07:26,960
Speaker 1: two point one to two point four degrees celsius of

2178
02:07:27,000 --> 02:07:29,040
Speaker 1: warming by the end of the century. And that is

2179
02:07:29,080 --> 02:07:32,600
Speaker 1: the lower estimate, as we'll see later on. Higher estimates

2180
02:07:32,600 --> 02:07:36,360
Speaker 1: were also um um shown at at the at the

2181
02:07:36,400 --> 02:07:39,720
Speaker 1: Glasgow conference, So we have the the idea was to

2182
02:07:39,840 --> 02:07:42,760
Speaker 1: hopefully keep it to one point five, and already we're

2183
02:07:42,920 --> 02:07:45,520
Speaker 1: pushing that back by almost a whole a whole degree

2184
02:07:45,520 --> 02:07:48,800
Speaker 1: if we're going to like two point four um so

2185
02:07:48,880 --> 02:07:52,000
Speaker 1: that that's that's like the main one of the main

2186
02:07:52,040 --> 02:07:55,440
Speaker 1: impacts there is like just totally kissing one point five goodbye,

2187
02:07:55,480 --> 02:07:58,480
Speaker 1: Like no what, no one even is going to view

2188
02:07:58,560 --> 02:08:05,120
Speaker 1: that as a possibility at this point. Huh. So I

2189
02:08:05,480 --> 02:08:08,000
Speaker 1: don't know how many people were still looking at that

2190
02:08:08,120 --> 02:08:10,839
Speaker 1: as really a goal. Apparently some people of the planners

2191
02:08:10,880 --> 02:08:15,280
Speaker 1: of copy apparently were. Um. But I mean, I know

2192
02:08:15,400 --> 02:08:17,800
Speaker 1: for us, we've we've been aware of that, and I'm

2193
02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:21,600
Speaker 1: not sure how, you know, really what mainstream liberals were

2194
02:08:21,600 --> 02:08:25,760
Speaker 1: thinking before this, but hopefully at the very least, maybe

2195
02:08:25,840 --> 02:08:28,800
Speaker 1: Cop twenty six made them realize that maybe it's there's

2196
02:08:28,840 --> 02:08:31,680
Speaker 1: a there's kind of it's it's maybe maybe worse than

2197
02:08:31,760 --> 02:08:35,480
Speaker 1: what you were thinking. Um. But so there are other

2198
02:08:35,520 --> 02:08:38,520
Speaker 1: things did happen at at Glasgow that are that are

2199
02:08:38,560 --> 02:08:43,000
Speaker 1: worth looking into. Um. So the main quote unquote achievements

2200
02:08:43,280 --> 02:08:47,760
Speaker 1: of the Glasgow Deal besides like revisiting the emissions cutting

2201
02:08:47,760 --> 02:08:50,160
Speaker 1: plants to try to keep stuff down, which of course

2202
02:08:50,280 --> 02:08:54,200
Speaker 1: we're you know, not not not met in shot way past. Um,

2203
02:08:54,240 --> 02:08:57,400
Speaker 1: But there we also had the first ever inclusion of

2204
02:08:57,480 --> 02:09:02,200
Speaker 1: a commitment to limit coal use. Now, the way phrasing

2205
02:09:02,280 --> 02:09:04,520
Speaker 1: is gonna work here, it's gonna be really interesting because

2206
02:09:04,560 --> 02:09:07,000
Speaker 1: the reason why this deal got passed is because some

2207
02:09:07,120 --> 02:09:11,680
Speaker 1: very specific shifts in their phrasing around coal use. Um.

2208
02:09:11,720 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 1: The other thing that caught that Cut twenty six tried

2209
02:09:14,200 --> 02:09:18,919
Speaker 1: to do was increase financial help for so called developing

2210
02:09:18,960 --> 02:09:23,680
Speaker 1: countries and provide funds and assistance for like climate disasters.

2211
02:09:23,720 --> 02:09:26,880
Speaker 1: So like when when like extreme weather events happen, have

2212
02:09:26,960 --> 02:09:30,440
Speaker 1: a set of funds UH set aside to help countries

2213
02:09:30,720 --> 02:09:33,520
Speaker 1: in these disasters. Now those are that that is a

2214
02:09:33,560 --> 02:09:36,720
Speaker 1: good idea, but as we'll see later, the way copy

2215
02:09:36,960 --> 02:09:39,640
Speaker 1: actually did it is not actually doing it. It's like

2216
02:09:39,680 --> 02:09:42,520
Speaker 1: they're they're they're pushing there, they're postponing this kind of goal,

2217
02:09:42,880 --> 02:09:47,240
Speaker 1: but they're just making it a prospect. But back to coal.

2218
02:09:47,440 --> 02:09:50,440
Speaker 1: So the Glasgow Climate Pact was the first ever climate

2219
02:09:50,480 --> 02:09:53,960
Speaker 1: deal to explicitly planned to reduce coal, which was a

2220
02:09:54,360 --> 02:09:58,000
Speaker 1: one one of the worst, like fossil fuels for four

2221
02:09:58,120 --> 02:10:02,040
Speaker 1: greenhouse gasses UM and and cole really can be phased out.

2222
02:10:02,600 --> 02:10:06,240
Speaker 1: Coal can be phased out by um electric power really easily.

2223
02:10:06,280 --> 02:10:10,120
Speaker 1: It's it's it is the easiest one. UM it's it's

2224
02:10:10,160 --> 02:10:12,120
Speaker 1: it's way easier to phase out cold than it is

2225
02:10:12,760 --> 02:10:17,560
Speaker 1: uh natural gas or other um or sorry, let's see

2226
02:10:18,520 --> 02:10:21,640
Speaker 1: the the the other main one. There's three there's a coal,

2227
02:10:21,840 --> 02:10:28,520
Speaker 1: natural gas, what's what's the last one? Regular gas? I

2228
02:10:28,520 --> 02:10:32,240
Speaker 1: guess so yeah, yeah, petroleum based stuff. Um yeah, But

2229
02:10:32,280 --> 02:10:35,120
Speaker 1: so the coals because coal is you mostly used for

2230
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:39,080
Speaker 1: heat um. Electrically generated heat is way is way easier

2231
02:10:39,360 --> 02:10:42,640
Speaker 1: than all than those other two. So coal coal really

2232
02:10:42,640 --> 02:10:45,480
Speaker 1: should be phased out as soon as possible UM. But

2233
02:10:45,640 --> 02:10:48,560
Speaker 1: the commitments to phase out coal that was introduced in

2234
02:10:48,560 --> 02:10:53,680
Speaker 1: earlier negotiations UM led to some fighting, specifically among India

2235
02:10:53,720 --> 02:10:57,400
Speaker 1: and China who were in in strong opposition to the

2236
02:10:57,480 --> 02:11:03,919
Speaker 1: phrasing and the actual strengths of of the deal UM.

2237
02:11:03,960 --> 02:11:06,600
Speaker 1: And a lot of this is like the argument that like,

2238
02:11:07,320 --> 02:11:10,040
Speaker 1: if these countries are still developing, it's not fair to

2239
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:14,040
Speaker 1: them to remove this resource when other developed nations had it,

2240
02:11:14,160 --> 02:11:15,600
Speaker 1: so that that that's that's the thing. We see that

2241
02:11:15,680 --> 02:11:18,480
Speaker 1: argument a lot around, like climate change stuff is like, oh,

2242
02:11:18,600 --> 02:11:21,480
Speaker 1: you you're just gonna stop other countries from developing because

2243
02:11:21,840 --> 02:11:24,360
Speaker 1: you you you got to get to this certain point

2244
02:11:24,520 --> 02:11:29,000
Speaker 1: of being a successful, like wealthy nation um and like

2245
02:11:29,040 --> 02:11:32,400
Speaker 1: you know with all this like industrial development on the

2246
02:11:32,440 --> 02:11:35,480
Speaker 1: back of fossil fuels and stuff. But then now you're

2247
02:11:35,480 --> 02:11:37,760
Speaker 1: going to remove that opportunity for other countries. Now there

2248
02:11:37,840 --> 02:11:40,360
Speaker 1: is there is UM a lot of stuff around like

2249
02:11:40,480 --> 02:11:44,480
Speaker 1: the growth frameworks that address this issue and specifically try

2250
02:11:44,560 --> 02:11:48,200
Speaker 1: to try to get um fossil fuel savings like a

2251
02:11:48,240 --> 02:11:52,160
Speaker 1: decrease in emissions and be able to use some of

2252
02:11:52,200 --> 02:11:55,400
Speaker 1: those gains to assist countries in getting stuff set up

2253
02:11:55,440 --> 02:11:58,040
Speaker 1: to a decent standard of living. UM. But you know

2254
02:11:58,160 --> 02:12:00,400
Speaker 1: that is going to be addressed on a whole another

2255
02:12:00,520 --> 02:12:03,880
Speaker 1: scale around like capitalism and and how countries intervened in

2256
02:12:03,920 --> 02:12:07,520
Speaker 1: other countries. That that's part of a bigger political question.

2257
02:12:07,600 --> 02:12:10,000
Speaker 1: But anyway, UM, Indian China did not like that, did

2258
02:12:10,000 --> 02:12:12,480
Speaker 1: not like the coal deal. UM. So in the end,

2259
02:12:12,600 --> 02:12:17,320
Speaker 1: the countries did agree to phase down coal rather than

2260
02:12:17,400 --> 02:12:20,400
Speaker 1: phase out coal. So that that that is the phrase

2261
02:12:20,480 --> 02:12:25,840
Speaker 1: that they ended up using is phase down. UM. The

2262
02:12:25,880 --> 02:12:29,400
Speaker 1: people weren't super happy about this. Uh. The Cup six

2263
02:12:29,440 --> 02:12:33,400
Speaker 1: president um Alec Sharma said that he was deeply sorry

2264
02:12:33,840 --> 02:12:37,080
Speaker 1: for how these events unfolded. And like, focus on coal

2265
02:12:37,160 --> 02:12:40,080
Speaker 1: is good, it's because it's responsible for about of annual

2266
02:12:40,200 --> 02:12:43,880
Speaker 1: CEO two emissions. But also like just focusing on coal

2267
02:12:44,320 --> 02:12:48,480
Speaker 1: leaves of really big lack of discussion on oil and gas,

2268
02:12:48,520 --> 02:12:51,280
Speaker 1: like there's like those are also like very bad and

2269
02:12:51,680 --> 02:12:53,760
Speaker 1: arguably we should be focusing on those a lot, Like

2270
02:12:54,000 --> 02:12:56,480
Speaker 1: those are those are the main ones we should get

2271
02:12:56,480 --> 02:12:57,800
Speaker 1: we should get rid of coal. Yes, but if we

2272
02:12:57,880 --> 02:13:00,560
Speaker 1: just focus on that, then they're so a lot of

2273
02:13:00,600 --> 02:13:04,240
Speaker 1: other stuff going on. So that is that is a

2274
02:13:04,240 --> 02:13:09,360
Speaker 1: lot of coal talk. Uh you know who also uses coal?

2275
02:13:11,840 --> 02:13:17,280
Speaker 1: Our sponsors, Yeah, we're entirely sponsored by Joe Manchin. Um,

2276
02:13:17,720 --> 02:13:20,680
Speaker 1: big friend of the pod. Thank you, thank you for

2277
02:13:20,720 --> 02:13:25,520
Speaker 1: always having our back, Joe. Anyway, here's the ads and

2278
02:13:25,680 --> 02:13:29,880
Speaker 1: we are back talking about copy and there is there

2279
02:13:29,960 --> 02:13:33,240
Speaker 1: is a decent there's stuff. Stuff did happen. So and

2280
02:13:33,240 --> 02:13:34,800
Speaker 1: I know it is going to be more of a

2281
02:13:35,160 --> 02:13:38,000
Speaker 1: sign C in numbers episode, but it is worth actually

2282
02:13:38,280 --> 02:13:42,200
Speaker 1: figuring out what what happened there because everyone just kind

2283
02:13:42,200 --> 02:13:45,080
Speaker 1: of had the perception like, oh, copy was a failure,

2284
02:13:45,080 --> 02:13:47,400
Speaker 1: because yeah it was, um, but it's it's it is

2285
02:13:47,440 --> 02:13:50,280
Speaker 1: good to know what actually is going on at things

2286
02:13:50,320 --> 02:13:52,880
Speaker 1: like this because if we're going to get some kind

2287
02:13:52,920 --> 02:13:56,000
Speaker 1: of you know, liberal change, this is where it's going

2288
02:13:56,040 --> 02:13:58,280
Speaker 1: to happen. So it is good to keep an eye

2289
02:13:58,280 --> 02:14:01,720
Speaker 1: on what these types of people are thinking. So we

2290
02:14:01,760 --> 02:14:04,880
Speaker 1: we left off on talking about how their plans to

2291
02:14:04,920 --> 02:14:07,600
Speaker 1: phase down coal, and there was like a general lack

2292
02:14:07,640 --> 02:14:10,400
Speaker 1: of focus on oil and gas and it is interesting,

2293
02:14:10,640 --> 02:14:17,040
Speaker 1: um if you so there was uh a group of

2294
02:14:17,280 --> 02:14:21,120
Speaker 1: activists led by this uh I think. I think it's

2295
02:14:21,120 --> 02:14:26,120
Speaker 1: like an NGO called Global Witness. UM assessed the participant

2296
02:14:26,200 --> 02:14:28,880
Speaker 1: list published by the u N at the start of

2297
02:14:28,920 --> 02:14:31,920
Speaker 1: the meeting, and they found that there was five hundred

2298
02:14:31,920 --> 02:14:35,160
Speaker 1: and three people with links to fossil fuel interests who

2299
02:14:35,240 --> 02:14:40,000
Speaker 1: were like accredited members of the Climates Summit and so,

2300
02:14:40,360 --> 02:14:43,560
Speaker 1: and they were like delicates. So cop twenty six delegates

2301
02:14:43,560 --> 02:14:47,840
Speaker 1: associated with fossil fuels outnumbered national delegate numbers for every

2302
02:14:47,840 --> 02:14:52,400
Speaker 1: other country. So there were more people representing fossil fuel

2303
02:14:52,400 --> 02:15:00,000
Speaker 1: interests than there were representing any individual country. So you're thinking, maybe,

2304
02:15:00,160 --> 02:15:03,440
Speaker 1: I wonder why this stuff is not going too good. Oh,

2305
02:15:03,480 --> 02:15:06,720
Speaker 1: it's because it's being run mostly by fossil field companies.

2306
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:14,800
Speaker 1: That's that's uh huh. That's an interesting, interesting little thing there. Um. Yeah.

2307
02:15:14,880 --> 02:15:17,680
Speaker 1: So the the other the other kind of notable thing

2308
02:15:17,840 --> 02:15:22,160
Speaker 1: about copy is uh it uh it it led to

2309
02:15:22,200 --> 02:15:26,640
Speaker 1: a quote unquote breakthrough in the rules for government led

2310
02:15:26,840 --> 02:15:31,440
Speaker 1: carbon markets. So this is the thing that the neoliberals

2311
02:15:31,480 --> 02:15:34,440
Speaker 1: are really excited about, is this idea of carbon markets,

2312
02:15:34,440 --> 02:15:37,960
Speaker 1: because it's a way to make more money kind of

2313
02:15:37,960 --> 02:15:41,440
Speaker 1: off of removing carbon and just to create a lot

2314
02:15:41,480 --> 02:15:46,560
Speaker 1: of red tape and bureaucracy around this idea of lowering emissions. So,

2315
02:15:47,000 --> 02:15:48,839
Speaker 1: I guess one of the ways to describe carbon markets

2316
02:15:48,840 --> 02:15:52,600
Speaker 1: if you're kind of unfamiliar with this idea, is that

2317
02:15:53,280 --> 02:15:58,360
Speaker 1: countries that do not meet their emission reduction targets in

2318
02:15:58,400 --> 02:16:05,200
Speaker 1: their national climate pledges are like penalized for this. Um so,

2319
02:16:05,200 --> 02:16:08,080
Speaker 1: so countries that countries that don't meet their mission targets

2320
02:16:08,240 --> 02:16:12,240
Speaker 1: or or want to just pursue like less less expansive

2321
02:16:12,400 --> 02:16:16,240
Speaker 1: emission cuts. What what what this deal set out to

2322
02:16:16,320 --> 02:16:20,400
Speaker 1: do is that instead of actually lowering emissions, they can

2323
02:16:20,640 --> 02:16:26,440
Speaker 1: purchase like emissions reduction tokens and credits from other nations

2324
02:16:26,480 --> 02:16:29,160
Speaker 1: that have cut their emissions more than the amount that

2325
02:16:29,240 --> 02:16:32,280
Speaker 1: they pledged, uh so, like by you know, moving to

2326
02:16:32,440 --> 02:16:36,400
Speaker 1: low carbon energy and various stuff. So the turn of

2327
02:16:36,440 --> 02:16:39,200
Speaker 1: phrase that people were using to discuss this to how

2328
02:16:39,280 --> 02:16:42,920
Speaker 1: you can like purchase purchase credits to represent emissions that

2329
02:16:42,959 --> 02:16:45,840
Speaker 1: you didn't cut but wanted to, is that this can

2330
02:16:45,959 --> 02:16:51,720
Speaker 1: potentially unlock trillions of dollars for protecting forests, expanding renewable energy,

2331
02:16:52,040 --> 02:16:56,880
Speaker 1: and other projects to combat climate change. Um So, the

2332
02:16:56,920 --> 02:16:59,960
Speaker 1: idea here is that the money used to purchase these credits,

2333
02:17:00,040 --> 02:17:03,879
Speaker 1: it's going to get put into other things that will

2334
02:17:04,000 --> 02:17:07,959
Speaker 1: help fight climate change. But all of this is non

2335
02:17:08,000 --> 02:17:11,879
Speaker 1: binding and speculative, and it just furthers this whole carbon

2336
02:17:11,959 --> 02:17:17,240
Speaker 1: market concept, which I'm not thrilled about. Um yeah, we should,

2337
02:17:17,240 --> 02:17:19,279
Speaker 1: we should do like a full episode of carbon markets.

2338
02:17:19,400 --> 02:17:23,600
Speaker 1: But the thing so I I this is you know,

2339
02:17:23,640 --> 02:17:26,560
Speaker 1: this is the thing I studied academically in college and

2340
02:17:27,000 --> 02:17:29,440
Speaker 1: is incredibly important for everyone to understand that carbon markets

2341
02:17:29,440 --> 02:17:32,240
Speaker 1: are fake and do not work at all. Ever one

2342
02:17:32,320 --> 02:17:34,240
Speaker 1: has ever gotten one where no one's ever gotten the

2343
02:17:34,320 --> 02:17:35,800
Speaker 1: national one to work, and no one's ever gott an

2344
02:17:35,800 --> 02:17:39,800
Speaker 1: international one to work. Uh, implementation of carbon markets, Like

2345
02:17:39,920 --> 02:17:42,240
Speaker 1: China had a big thing that they're gonna implemented carbon market.

2346
02:17:42,440 --> 02:17:45,240
Speaker 1: Uh it was fake. It didn't work. Their carbon emission

2347
02:17:45,280 --> 02:17:49,560
Speaker 1: still increase, very very import Like how fuy carbon markets

2348
02:17:49,600 --> 02:17:52,440
Speaker 1: can be. So you get carbon credits if you're a

2349
02:17:52,480 --> 02:17:58,160
Speaker 1: business like Tesla that makes no emission electronic vehicles, and Tesla,

2350
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:00,760
Speaker 1: for a lot of it's earlier history, made a significant

2351
02:18:00,840 --> 02:18:04,199
Speaker 1: chunk of its profits selling carbon credits to polluting industries

2352
02:18:04,520 --> 02:18:07,720
Speaker 1: and basically saying you guys, keep polluting. We got your back,

2353
02:18:07,840 --> 02:18:10,600
Speaker 1: Like the fact that we're putting electric cars out onto

2354
02:18:10,640 --> 02:18:12,879
Speaker 1: the street means you guys can keep admitting at the

2355
02:18:12,879 --> 02:18:16,760
Speaker 1: same all like that's that's like literally how how kind

2356
02:18:16,800 --> 02:18:20,840
Speaker 1: of the business can work. It's it's not the best

2357
02:18:20,879 --> 02:18:24,480
Speaker 1: way to fix the problem. Yeah. So there's a lot

2358
02:18:24,480 --> 02:18:27,400
Speaker 1: of a lot of talk was around carbon markets, um,

2359
02:18:27,440 --> 02:18:31,360
Speaker 1: because that's of course with the Neil liberal establishment, neo

2360
02:18:31,400 --> 02:18:35,480
Speaker 1: liberal englishment is going to focus on because it's still

2361
02:18:35,640 --> 02:18:38,160
Speaker 1: is within their kind of worldview. Um, how do we

2362
02:18:38,200 --> 02:18:40,800
Speaker 1: monetize the rot? Yeah, how do we how do we

2363
02:18:40,840 --> 02:18:44,560
Speaker 1: make money off of the world ending? Um? Which I

2364
02:18:44,560 --> 02:18:46,360
Speaker 1: guess we're going to see a lot more of that

2365
02:18:46,800 --> 02:18:49,959
Speaker 1: uh in the next in the next few decades. Um.

2366
02:18:50,040 --> 02:18:52,480
Speaker 1: The the other the other thing that they decided on is,

2367
02:18:52,640 --> 02:18:55,160
Speaker 1: uh next year there's gonna there's gonna be again. So

2368
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:58,280
Speaker 1: there's there's they decided to procrastinate, which is just a

2369
02:18:58,720 --> 02:19:03,080
Speaker 1: general theme of cop car offerences we've been with. It's

2370
02:19:03,120 --> 02:19:06,640
Speaker 1: what everyone's been doing about plimate change since forever. So Yeah,

2371
02:19:06,680 --> 02:19:10,200
Speaker 1: the main thing they do is decide to procrastinate. Um.

2372
02:19:10,320 --> 02:19:13,439
Speaker 1: So next year there's gonna be a u N committee

2373
02:19:13,720 --> 02:19:17,880
Speaker 1: to report on progress towards delivering one billion dollar per

2374
02:19:18,000 --> 02:19:22,000
Speaker 1: year in a promised climate funding. Uh. This was after

2375
02:19:22,200 --> 02:19:25,520
Speaker 1: rich nations failed to deliver on the deadline for said

2376
02:19:25,560 --> 02:19:28,959
Speaker 1: funds um and then financing is gonna be discussed again

2377
02:19:28,959 --> 02:19:34,160
Speaker 1: in two those conferences. Um. But this this deal left

2378
02:19:34,160 --> 02:19:37,080
Speaker 1: a lot of more vulnerable nations who were going to

2379
02:19:37,200 --> 02:19:41,800
Speaker 1: rely on this promised funding. Uh kind of just they

2380
02:19:41,840 --> 02:19:44,520
Speaker 1: just left them without things. So the whole idea was

2381
02:19:44,600 --> 02:19:48,080
Speaker 1: that like, yeah, we need this funding to help people

2382
02:19:48,240 --> 02:19:51,440
Speaker 1: in these disasters and different losses and damages and to

2383
02:19:51,520 --> 02:19:56,000
Speaker 1: help you know, start start making more um, renewable energy

2384
02:19:56,160 --> 02:19:59,720
Speaker 1: technology in lieu of doing tons of tons of coal

2385
02:19:59,760 --> 02:20:01,720
Speaker 1: mine And that's where this money was going to get

2386
02:20:01,840 --> 02:20:08,080
Speaker 1: used for and it's not happening. Um. So this this

2387
02:20:08,160 --> 02:20:12,600
Speaker 1: promise was initially made at a u WIN a conference

2388
02:20:12,680 --> 02:20:16,520
Speaker 1: on climate change, and we're still we're still pushing it

2389
02:20:16,560 --> 02:20:20,600
Speaker 1: back year by year. So this pledge is older than

2390
02:20:20,680 --> 02:20:24,760
Speaker 1: I am. Yeah, it sure is. Another pledge meant as

2391
02:20:24,760 --> 02:20:28,200
Speaker 1: a nine to provide a hundred billion dollars to emerging

2392
02:20:28,240 --> 02:20:31,680
Speaker 1: economies was supposed to be made in that also was

2393
02:20:31,760 --> 02:20:34,039
Speaker 1: missed um. And it was it was designed to help

2394
02:20:34,160 --> 02:20:36,560
Speaker 1: nations adapt to climate effects and make the transition to

2395
02:20:36,600 --> 02:20:41,320
Speaker 1: clean energy UM and UH. The cop Spring six president

2396
02:20:41,400 --> 02:20:44,200
Speaker 1: said that around five hundred billion will be mobilized by

2397
02:20:45,640 --> 02:20:51,200
Speaker 1: so cool. Thanks for saying those numbers which mean nothing.

2398
02:20:51,840 --> 02:20:54,000
Speaker 1: It's fun. It's fun how you can just talk and

2399
02:20:54,040 --> 02:20:57,320
Speaker 1: say things and it doesn't actually matter. It's It's one

2400
02:20:57,360 --> 02:20:59,440
Speaker 1: of the things that's so frustrating about this is trying

2401
02:20:59,480 --> 02:21:03,320
Speaker 1: to get a hand along, like how how a lot

2402
02:21:03,360 --> 02:21:05,520
Speaker 1: of these solutions are supposed to work. So, like one

2403
02:21:05,520 --> 02:21:08,120
Speaker 1: of the articles, if you're trying to actually if you're

2404
02:21:08,160 --> 02:21:10,160
Speaker 1: not just taking our word for it, which you never should,

2405
02:21:10,200 --> 02:21:13,800
Speaker 1: and trying to research like carbon credits and carbon markets

2406
02:21:13,840 --> 02:21:16,640
Speaker 1: and like how they might work or might help. Like

2407
02:21:16,640 --> 02:21:18,480
Speaker 1: one of the articles you're going to come across is

2408
02:21:19,000 --> 02:21:22,160
Speaker 1: an article in Nature dot org called making Carbon Markets

2409
02:21:22,200 --> 02:21:24,800
Speaker 1: Work for Faster Climate Action. And this is very much

2410
02:21:24,800 --> 02:21:28,000
Speaker 1: obviously so it's pretty it's pretty recent, and it's not

2411
02:21:28,080 --> 02:21:30,800
Speaker 1: at all a climate denial piece. It's it's just kind

2412
02:21:30,800 --> 02:21:33,800
Speaker 1: of laying out a case for how carbon markets could

2413
02:21:33,840 --> 02:21:38,320
Speaker 1: be very effective at reducing emissions. But you have to

2414
02:21:38,320 --> 02:21:39,959
Speaker 1: grapple the whole time you're looking at this with the

2415
02:21:39,959 --> 02:21:45,640
Speaker 1: fact that like they haven't that that global global emissions

2416
02:21:45,680 --> 02:21:47,959
Speaker 1: are still shoo and they provide a number of like

2417
02:21:49,200 --> 02:21:51,920
Speaker 1: options for how this could work. And it's one of

2418
02:21:51,920 --> 02:21:54,840
Speaker 1: those things where I'm not gonna say it's impossible. I'm

2419
02:21:54,840 --> 02:21:56,800
Speaker 1: certainly not an expert on this, and you can read

2420
02:21:56,800 --> 02:22:00,080
Speaker 1: through the article, um if you want, but it it

2421
02:22:00,080 --> 02:22:03,160
Speaker 1: it's it's certainly certainly think the thing you can say

2422
02:22:03,240 --> 02:22:05,760
Speaker 1: right now is that carbon markets have not led to

2423
02:22:05,879 --> 02:22:08,360
Speaker 1: a global decrease in emissions because we we have not

2424
02:22:08,480 --> 02:22:11,760
Speaker 1: had emissions decrease other than that little dip we had

2425
02:22:11,800 --> 02:22:16,920
Speaker 1: when a covid uh did it's it's sweet little dance. Yeah,

2426
02:22:16,959 --> 02:22:20,920
Speaker 1: that one month where we could actually see the sky again. Yeah,

2427
02:22:20,959 --> 02:22:24,440
Speaker 1: that was pretty rad um. But yeah, there's there's I mean,

2428
02:22:24,520 --> 02:22:26,200
Speaker 1: you you can check that article out for kind of

2429
02:22:26,240 --> 02:22:29,760
Speaker 1: the pro carbon markets case. It all seems i mean,

2430
02:22:29,760 --> 02:22:31,800
Speaker 1: one of the things that's frustrating to me about it

2431
02:22:31,840 --> 02:22:36,160
Speaker 1: is it all it's all like, yeah, here's how it

2432
02:22:36,280 --> 02:22:39,160
Speaker 1: might work if you know, everybody got on board the

2433
02:22:39,160 --> 02:22:42,520
Speaker 1: Paris Climate Agreement and also all of this worked ideally,

2434
02:22:43,200 --> 02:22:45,039
Speaker 1: But there's there just doesn't seem to be a lot

2435
02:22:45,080 --> 02:22:49,200
Speaker 1: of I I just don't see any evidence that like

2436
02:22:49,360 --> 02:22:53,320
Speaker 1: they've shown that this is actually likely to be helpful. Um,

2437
02:22:53,360 --> 02:22:55,920
Speaker 1: it's more just like yeah, this this could this could

2438
02:22:55,920 --> 02:22:59,840
Speaker 1: work if if we do these other things. Um, we

2439
02:23:00,080 --> 02:23:02,040
Speaker 1: just frustrating. That's like all all of the kind of

2440
02:23:02,040 --> 02:23:04,200
Speaker 1: ship that you get at at at COP twenty six,

2441
02:23:04,200 --> 02:23:06,880
Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, I guess theoretically, if you were

2442
02:23:06,879 --> 02:23:08,600
Speaker 1: to do that, or if that were to work the

2443
02:23:08,600 --> 02:23:10,240
Speaker 1: way you're saying, or if that were to work with

2444
02:23:10,280 --> 02:23:13,560
Speaker 1: the assumption that like all these other factors don't grow

2445
02:23:13,600 --> 02:23:16,520
Speaker 1: over this period of time, than than this might help.

2446
02:23:16,640 --> 02:23:21,480
Speaker 1: But we also know what's happened with emissions and global

2447
02:23:21,520 --> 02:23:24,840
Speaker 1: attempts to reduce climate change. UM. Which is not to

2448
02:23:24,879 --> 02:23:28,680
Speaker 1: say that like like emissions in the United States, Like

2449
02:23:28,720 --> 02:23:30,360
Speaker 1: there have been there's been a lot that's been done

2450
02:23:30,360 --> 02:23:33,080
Speaker 1: to curb emissions from the United States. Now, the thing

2451
02:23:33,160 --> 02:23:35,560
Speaker 1: that's often left out of like the discussion of these

2452
02:23:35,560 --> 02:23:38,440
Speaker 1: different things and how they impacted our emissions is like, well,

2453
02:23:38,520 --> 02:23:40,800
Speaker 1: a lot of those emissions got pushed off to other

2454
02:23:40,879 --> 02:23:43,000
Speaker 1: countries that are now making the things that we were

2455
02:23:43,040 --> 02:23:45,720
Speaker 1: making for I yes, like that. That's the big thing

2456
02:23:45,720 --> 02:23:48,039
Speaker 1: when people argue against the growth and they're like, no,

2457
02:23:48,200 --> 02:23:50,680
Speaker 1: you can you can still keep growing your economy while

2458
02:23:51,080 --> 02:23:54,720
Speaker 1: lowering emissions, and like, yeah, one country can, but we

2459
02:23:54,800 --> 02:23:57,039
Speaker 1: still want the stuff, so we're just moving it to

2460
02:23:57,200 --> 02:24:00,360
Speaker 1: other countries to produce, so like we're not at actually

2461
02:24:00,600 --> 02:24:03,080
Speaker 1: lowering it on a global level. You can lower you

2462
02:24:03,120 --> 02:24:05,720
Speaker 1: can lower it on like an individual country level, but

2463
02:24:05,879 --> 02:24:08,840
Speaker 1: not totally globally because we still want to consume the thing.

2464
02:24:09,360 --> 02:24:11,440
Speaker 1: This is one of the single most frustrating things about

2465
02:24:11,480 --> 02:24:14,400
Speaker 1: talking to people about climate change is that, Okay, you know,

2466
02:24:14,400 --> 02:24:15,680
Speaker 1: if you if you talk to the sort of Neiler

2467
02:24:15,720 --> 02:24:18,439
Speaker 1: Book Cormon market people, right, if you talk about literally

2468
02:24:18,480 --> 02:24:21,320
Speaker 1: anything else, right, the only thing they ever talked about

2469
02:24:21,360 --> 02:24:23,080
Speaker 1: is how the entire world is inter connected, how the

2470
02:24:23,200 --> 02:24:25,600
Speaker 1: entire economies and connected, how we're more interconnected than ever.

2471
02:24:26,080 --> 02:24:28,480
Speaker 1: And then the moment you start talking about climate change,

2472
02:24:29,320 --> 02:24:31,800
Speaker 1: they go, oh, well, it's all the individual country, individual country,

2473
02:24:31,800 --> 02:24:33,760
Speaker 1: individual country, the economy is not connected at all. It's

2474
02:24:33,760 --> 02:24:36,240
Speaker 1: all about the individual policy makers country. It's like, no,

2475
02:24:36,360 --> 02:24:40,160
Speaker 1: it's not the it's it's about like all all of

2476
02:24:40,200 --> 02:24:42,160
Speaker 1: the like, the the the the the the emissions are

2477
02:24:42,160 --> 02:24:44,960
Speaker 1: foreign direct investment driven, right, it's about it's a it's

2478
02:24:44,959 --> 02:24:47,240
Speaker 1: about's about what it's about where investment money is going.

2479
02:24:47,760 --> 02:24:51,160
Speaker 1: And you cannot and you know this, this is this

2480
02:24:51,240 --> 02:24:52,879
Speaker 1: is why cop and someone is like, this is why

2481
02:24:52,920 --> 02:24:54,720
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. And even though it's the only frame

2482
02:24:54,840 --> 02:24:56,320
Speaker 1: rate that could work, right, you have to have an

2483
02:24:56,360 --> 02:24:58,720
Speaker 1: international response, has to be coordinated, it has to be

2484
02:24:59,320 --> 02:25:02,360
Speaker 1: working across national lines, because again that's how the economist

2485
02:25:02,360 --> 02:25:06,760
Speaker 1: dim works. But it doesn't because a state's individual states

2486
02:25:07,000 --> 02:25:09,200
Speaker 1: can't and will not ever solve this and then be

2487
02:25:10,320 --> 02:25:12,879
Speaker 1: copies like Okay, so here's here's our international framework. But

2488
02:25:12,920 --> 02:25:14,880
Speaker 1: also we're just going to have you know, the actual

2489
02:25:14,920 --> 02:25:17,720
Speaker 1: the the the actual international framework is going to be

2490
02:25:17,800 --> 02:25:20,920
Speaker 1: just essentially hammered up by bunch of fossil fuel companies

2491
02:25:21,879 --> 02:25:24,120
Speaker 1: and so it's just you know, it's it's the worst

2492
02:25:24,160 --> 02:25:27,440
Speaker 1: of both worlds. I mean, it's and it you can

2493
02:25:27,440 --> 02:25:31,039
Speaker 1: see there's there's some kind of acknowledgement at the fact

2494
02:25:31,080 --> 02:25:33,520
Speaker 1: that this is an international problem in in like the

2495
02:25:33,560 --> 02:25:36,760
Speaker 1: basic idea of of carbon markets, which includes the idea

2496
02:25:36,800 --> 02:25:41,240
Speaker 1: that like, um, you can companies that that emit emit

2497
02:25:41,320 --> 02:25:43,840
Speaker 1: lesson don't use up their carbon budget can like sell

2498
02:25:43,920 --> 02:25:46,680
Speaker 1: carbon credits, and you can do this across international lines.

2499
02:25:46,720 --> 02:25:49,600
Speaker 1: And like if we hold if we hold companies to

2500
02:25:49,720 --> 02:25:53,520
Speaker 1: different like emission standards internationally based on things like the

2501
02:25:53,520 --> 02:25:56,680
Speaker 1: Paris Climate Agreement, then that will cause the carbon credit

2502
02:25:56,760 --> 02:26:00,280
Speaker 1: system to work better. Um, there's that acknowledgement that it

2503
02:26:00,360 --> 02:26:03,560
Speaker 1: is an international problem. But again I just don't I

2504
02:26:03,600 --> 02:26:07,200
Speaker 1: don't see I don't see evidence that it's working, and

2505
02:26:07,240 --> 02:26:10,800
Speaker 1: they like none of the evidence that I've read makes

2506
02:26:10,840 --> 02:26:13,480
Speaker 1: it seem like there's a very good case that this

2507
02:26:13,560 --> 02:26:15,080
Speaker 1: is going to at the very least, that this is

2508
02:26:15,120 --> 02:26:17,160
Speaker 1: going to provide the kind of emissions productions that are

2509
02:26:17,200 --> 02:26:22,320
Speaker 1: necessary to forestall the worst case scenarios that are coming. Um.

2510
02:26:22,360 --> 02:26:25,199
Speaker 1: And if we're gonna be again to be completely intellectually

2511
02:26:25,240 --> 02:26:29,040
Speaker 1: honest here, we can talk about D growth all day long. UM.

2512
02:26:29,080 --> 02:26:31,360
Speaker 1: I have a similar problem with that that I do

2513
02:26:31,480 --> 02:26:35,320
Speaker 1: to a lot of these the different kind of targets

2514
02:26:35,400 --> 02:26:38,800
Speaker 1: that COP twenty six introduced, stuff like carbon markets, where

2515
02:26:38,800 --> 02:26:44,920
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't I don't see that solving the

2516
02:26:44,959 --> 02:26:47,920
Speaker 1: problem either. It's like a theoretical it's it's yeah, if

2517
02:26:47,959 --> 02:26:51,000
Speaker 1: we were to get people to if if we've gotten

2518
02:26:51,040 --> 02:26:53,840
Speaker 1: people on board with D growth, then you've already fundamentally

2519
02:26:53,879 --> 02:26:57,320
Speaker 1: shifted the very nature of global society. UM. And also

2520
02:26:57,760 --> 02:27:00,360
Speaker 1: the way in which Americans and people in other Western

2521
02:27:00,440 --> 02:27:05,720
Speaker 1: nations like conceived of economics at a fundamental level. Um.

2522
02:27:06,000 --> 02:27:08,120
Speaker 1: And so it's it's one thing to say that, like, yeah,

2523
02:27:08,160 --> 02:27:12,280
Speaker 1: if people accepted that and and got on board with

2524
02:27:12,760 --> 02:27:15,760
Speaker 1: a lifestyle that is not based on this this kind

2525
02:27:15,760 --> 02:27:19,320
Speaker 1: of capitalist notion of endless growth, of ever increasing extraction

2526
02:27:19,360 --> 02:27:22,640
Speaker 1: from the world in order to create value, um, then

2527
02:27:22,680 --> 02:27:26,000
Speaker 1: we could we could actually stop emitting at the kind

2528
02:27:26,040 --> 02:27:29,359
Speaker 1: of levels that are going to lead to these horrible consequences. Um.

2529
02:27:29,520 --> 02:27:33,560
Speaker 1: The question is like, I don't see, I don't see

2530
02:27:33,640 --> 02:27:35,720
Speaker 1: you you can. I think you can argue that de

2531
02:27:35,879 --> 02:27:40,360
Speaker 1: growth is more realistic in that Yes, that would absolutely work,

2532
02:27:40,560 --> 02:27:43,200
Speaker 1: as opposed to carbon credits and other things where it's like,

2533
02:27:43,240 --> 02:27:45,280
Speaker 1: well theoretically it might work if they do all this

2534
02:27:45,320 --> 02:27:49,480
Speaker 1: other stuff. Yeah, it does. It does revolve on the

2535
02:27:49,480 --> 02:27:55,000
Speaker 1: cultural notion of America and the West completely changing. Um.

2536
02:27:55,000 --> 02:27:57,320
Speaker 1: It's a big it's a big ask, you know. Yeah,

2537
02:27:57,560 --> 02:27:59,400
Speaker 1: And I mean like there is there are smaller steps,

2538
02:27:59,440 --> 02:28:02,760
Speaker 1: like totally like reorganizing how cities work so we do

2539
02:28:02,840 --> 02:28:05,840
Speaker 1: not use cars, uh, like like like re redoing a

2540
02:28:05,879 --> 02:28:10,119
Speaker 1: public transportation um like sector uh in you know, um,

2541
02:28:10,160 --> 02:28:13,400
Speaker 1: making making like a cellar panels and renewable energy. I

2542
02:28:13,520 --> 02:28:16,120
Speaker 1: required part of like city infrastructure right there, there's a

2543
02:28:16,160 --> 02:28:19,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ways to push us towards that thing,

2544
02:28:19,440 --> 02:28:21,360
Speaker 1: but there's not one thing we can do right because

2545
02:28:21,400 --> 02:28:24,600
Speaker 1: it is in large parts of cultural change. Stuff stuff

2546
02:28:24,640 --> 02:28:27,280
Speaker 1: will help with emissions. Like if we if we redesign

2547
02:28:27,400 --> 02:28:30,920
Speaker 1: cities around public transportation and make it so stuff is

2548
02:28:30,959 --> 02:28:32,800
Speaker 1: not as as far apart, and yeah, that that's gonna

2549
02:28:32,840 --> 02:28:35,520
Speaker 1: help lower emissions. If we if we require all these

2550
02:28:35,520 --> 02:28:38,600
Speaker 1: other types of renewable energy projects to be built into

2551
02:28:38,959 --> 02:28:42,440
Speaker 1: buildings and added on to our current cities, and yeah,

2552
02:28:42,480 --> 02:28:45,440
Speaker 1: that that is going to help lower emissions. But you know,

2553
02:28:45,560 --> 02:28:48,440
Speaker 1: there's there's not one one big step that we can

2554
02:28:48,440 --> 02:28:51,080
Speaker 1: all do at the same time. And I think that

2555
02:28:51,080 --> 02:28:53,920
Speaker 1: that's I don't know. I'm of two minds about it.

2556
02:28:54,000 --> 02:28:57,440
Speaker 1: One part of me says that's absolutely the most intelligent

2557
02:28:57,480 --> 02:29:00,560
Speaker 1: way to go about it is focusing on things like

2558
02:29:01,200 --> 02:29:04,200
Speaker 1: reducing the use of like like like really all ending

2559
02:29:04,280 --> 02:29:08,160
Speaker 1: car culture in cities, because it's not even a reduction thing.

2560
02:29:08,200 --> 02:29:11,360
Speaker 1: It has to be like that that has to die. Um.

2561
02:29:11,360 --> 02:29:13,760
Speaker 1: But we're a lot closer to that than ending the

2562
02:29:13,879 --> 02:29:20,760
Speaker 1: idea of like uh, capitalism because they're at number one one,

2563
02:29:20,760 --> 02:29:24,240
Speaker 1: because there are capitalists, very capitalist countries that have that

2564
02:29:24,320 --> 02:29:26,920
Speaker 1: do not have a car culture that like stopped that

2565
02:29:27,040 --> 02:29:28,959
Speaker 1: and that actually like had one at one point and

2566
02:29:28,959 --> 02:29:32,640
Speaker 1: then reworked there. So that's that's and that would Yeah,

2567
02:29:32,680 --> 02:29:35,480
Speaker 1: that is a significant that's probably go that would probably

2568
02:29:35,560 --> 02:29:38,800
Speaker 1: lead to larger emissions reductions than any kind of carbon

2569
02:29:38,879 --> 02:29:43,880
Speaker 1: credit system could ever lead to. UM. I also, and

2570
02:29:44,320 --> 02:29:46,800
Speaker 1: so yeah, I think that that's on an objective level, Yeah,

2571
02:29:46,800 --> 02:29:49,200
Speaker 1: that's it's smart to focus on stuff like that where

2572
02:29:49,600 --> 02:29:53,920
Speaker 1: you're all you are arguing for reducing growth, but you're

2573
02:29:53,959 --> 02:29:56,320
Speaker 1: also arguing and for like, hey, your life will be

2574
02:29:56,360 --> 02:29:58,440
Speaker 1: more pleasant if you live in a city where you

2575
02:29:58,480 --> 02:30:01,520
Speaker 1: can walk everywhere. You're not at risk of getting run

2576
02:30:01,560 --> 02:30:04,720
Speaker 1: down by you know, two ton trucks anytime you cross

2577
02:30:04,800 --> 02:30:07,360
Speaker 1: the street, and like you're not dealing with smog and

2578
02:30:07,440 --> 02:30:10,600
Speaker 1: pollution and horrible like hour and a half long communes

2579
02:30:10,680 --> 02:30:15,400
Speaker 1: on these crowded nightmare highways. Um. But it's also it's

2580
02:30:15,400 --> 02:30:20,680
Speaker 1: still incrementalist. You know, we we are we are talking here,

2581
02:30:20,720 --> 02:30:24,080
Speaker 1: we are kind of like walking through here, Um, all

2582
02:30:24,120 --> 02:30:27,560
Speaker 1: of the best incremental solutions and and what is the

2583
02:30:27,560 --> 02:30:30,320
Speaker 1: most realistic of those. UM, And I think that's fine.

2584
02:30:30,360 --> 02:30:31,840
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of where we have to be

2585
02:30:31,840 --> 02:30:35,760
Speaker 1: because that is what's most likely to actually happen to

2586
02:30:35,800 --> 02:30:38,480
Speaker 1: make the problem better. UM, but it is we have

2587
02:30:38,520 --> 02:30:41,160
Speaker 1: to acknowledge it is incremental, like we're not we're not

2588
02:30:41,320 --> 02:30:45,640
Speaker 1: solving It would be very arrogant to say, like, here's

2589
02:30:45,640 --> 02:30:48,240
Speaker 1: how we solve this problem once and for all, you know,

2590
02:30:48,320 --> 02:30:50,200
Speaker 1: I just want to. I think sometimes when you talk

2591
02:30:50,240 --> 02:30:52,320
Speaker 1: about stuff like deep growth you can get into this,

2592
02:30:52,640 --> 02:30:54,880
Speaker 1: you can kind of it can come across as if

2593
02:30:54,879 --> 02:30:56,959
Speaker 1: you're trying to like simplify, like and if we do this,

2594
02:30:57,240 --> 02:30:59,280
Speaker 1: like it will be perfectly like now, this would be

2595
02:30:59,320 --> 02:31:02,480
Speaker 1: like the hardest. No, that's that's like saying we have

2596
02:31:02,520 --> 02:31:04,960
Speaker 1: to confix it by all doing a revolution. It's like

2597
02:31:05,080 --> 02:31:08,680
Speaker 1: that's it's it's not okay, okay, cool, Yeah, I mean,

2598
02:31:09,959 --> 02:31:12,760
Speaker 1: but anyway, we have to do some ADS and then

2599
02:31:12,760 --> 02:31:15,080
Speaker 1: we'll be back to finish up kind of their closing

2600
02:31:15,120 --> 02:31:17,560
Speaker 1: expectations on COP twenty six and the other kind of

2601
02:31:17,560 --> 02:31:22,280
Speaker 1: things happening in the periphery. Um, here's ads. Okay, we

2602
02:31:22,400 --> 02:31:24,920
Speaker 1: are back and we're talking about kind of what happened

2603
02:31:24,920 --> 02:31:27,480
Speaker 1: towards the end of copy. So we already kind of

2604
02:31:27,520 --> 02:31:29,840
Speaker 1: discussed how the deal was made, what was in the deal,

2605
02:31:29,879 --> 02:31:32,760
Speaker 1: what things were talked about. Um now we're kind of

2606
02:31:32,840 --> 02:31:34,680
Speaker 1: going to talk about, you know, the other kind of

2607
02:31:34,680 --> 02:31:39,080
Speaker 1: closing thoughts around it. Um in in in. In the

2608
02:31:39,120 --> 02:31:41,920
Speaker 1: lead up to to cap to plenty six, the United

2609
02:31:41,920 --> 02:31:46,879
Speaker 1: States Special Presidential Climate Envoy John Kerry, who's like he's

2610
02:31:46,879 --> 02:31:49,240
Speaker 1: supposed to be like our climate guy. Um he he

2611
02:31:49,320 --> 02:31:51,600
Speaker 1: also said the goal this something it was to it

2612
02:31:51,760 --> 02:31:53,920
Speaker 1: was to you know, hope that we can limit stuff

2613
02:31:53,959 --> 02:31:56,360
Speaker 1: to one point five degrees and you know, he he

2614
02:31:56,480 --> 02:31:58,560
Speaker 1: called this the last best hope for the world to

2615
02:31:58,600 --> 02:32:01,880
Speaker 1: get its act together. But by the time Capturist six

2616
02:32:01,959 --> 02:32:04,840
Speaker 1: came to the end, his language and attitude had kind

2617
02:32:04,840 --> 02:32:08,120
Speaker 1: of changed. Um after after two weeks of debate and negotiation,

2618
02:32:08,560 --> 02:32:11,320
Speaker 1: his his final remarks reflected the kind of the points

2619
02:32:11,360 --> 02:32:15,400
Speaker 1: we've been talking about, how um and and and said, like, uh,

2620
02:32:15,760 --> 02:32:18,800
Speaker 1: like the government energy policy is currently in place around

2621
02:32:18,800 --> 02:32:22,000
Speaker 1: the world are projected to result in about two point

2622
02:32:22,080 --> 02:32:26,360
Speaker 1: seven degrees uh celsius of warming above pre industrial levels,

2623
02:32:26,720 --> 02:32:29,959
Speaker 1: and government pledges to cut climate emissions would limit warming

2624
02:32:29,959 --> 02:32:33,360
Speaker 1: to two point four uh if they are met. So

2625
02:32:33,879 --> 02:32:36,879
Speaker 1: that's the the Again, we're just launching way past this

2626
02:32:37,000 --> 02:32:40,360
Speaker 1: like mythical fantasy of of one point five degrees. And

2627
02:32:40,400 --> 02:32:43,600
Speaker 1: the other scary things is that we're getting a lot,

2628
02:32:43,640 --> 02:32:47,640
Speaker 1: a lot closer to large scale feedback loops. Uh. Feedback

2629
02:32:47,680 --> 02:32:49,920
Speaker 1: loops are things like once we have reached a certain

2630
02:32:49,920 --> 02:32:53,480
Speaker 1: degree of warming, environmental effects will be triggered that will

2631
02:32:53,640 --> 02:32:57,600
Speaker 1: cascade and produce like exponential growth in warming. This is

2632
02:32:57,640 --> 02:33:00,959
Speaker 1: like a this it's not purely theory article, but it

2633
02:33:01,080 --> 02:33:03,880
Speaker 1: is mostly stuff that we still probably can prevent, and

2634
02:33:03,920 --> 02:33:05,840
Speaker 1: we really need to get on it like a S

2635
02:33:05,920 --> 02:33:08,280
Speaker 1: A P. Because once these things start happening, they are

2636
02:33:08,360 --> 02:33:10,959
Speaker 1: very hard to reverse. One of the biggest ones that

2637
02:33:11,000 --> 02:33:14,240
Speaker 1: are that are already being affected is photosynthesis by plants

2638
02:33:14,240 --> 02:33:17,800
Speaker 1: on land and how that is decreasing its ability to

2639
02:33:17,879 --> 02:33:22,199
Speaker 1: suck up carbon um. About of our annual carbon emissions

2640
02:33:22,320 --> 02:33:26,360
Speaker 1: are removed by the air by photosynthesis um and the

2641
02:33:26,680 --> 02:33:29,400
Speaker 1: rest of which are dissolved in the ocean, causing ocean

2642
02:33:29,520 --> 02:33:32,560
Speaker 1: acidification or that you just hang around in the atmosphere,

2643
02:33:32,560 --> 02:33:36,959
Speaker 1: which causes you know, a bigger thermal blanket. So uh,

2644
02:33:37,000 --> 02:33:40,200
Speaker 1: photosynthesis has like a thermal maximum beyond which carbon can

2645
02:33:40,240 --> 02:33:43,800
Speaker 1: only be taken so much of it in and then

2646
02:33:43,840 --> 02:33:46,720
Speaker 1: the process which by plants give off carbon and water

2647
02:33:46,840 --> 02:33:50,959
Speaker 1: actually increases. And we are already at that point in

2648
02:33:51,000 --> 02:33:53,680
Speaker 1: a in a lot of places, and we are we

2649
02:33:53,680 --> 02:33:56,240
Speaker 1: are at that we we achieve the warming required to

2650
02:33:56,320 --> 02:33:59,560
Speaker 1: get to that point a few times throughout the past decade.

2651
02:34:00,080 --> 02:34:03,040
Speaker 1: So land based carbon uptake is projected to decline by

2652
02:34:03,080 --> 02:34:07,480
Speaker 1: nearly fift percent as early as and and these effects

2653
02:34:07,480 --> 02:34:09,720
Speaker 1: have not been included in any of the you know,

2654
02:34:09,840 --> 02:34:15,120
Speaker 1: published pathways leading to lower like lower degrees of warming. Um.

2655
02:34:15,160 --> 02:34:17,600
Speaker 1: And again this isn't this isn't just as speculative. Like

2656
02:34:17,840 --> 02:34:20,120
Speaker 1: the biggest example of this that we can like point

2657
02:34:20,160 --> 02:34:22,640
Speaker 1: to is like the Amazon rainforest. How that is now

2658
02:34:22,720 --> 02:34:26,160
Speaker 1: a net emitter because it is no longer sucking up

2659
02:34:26,280 --> 02:34:29,000
Speaker 1: enough carbon to offset the amount of carbon and actually

2660
02:34:29,040 --> 02:34:33,160
Speaker 1: shoots out. So we need to stop deforestation and keep

2661
02:34:33,200 --> 02:34:37,520
Speaker 1: planting more trees essentially because that that sucks. And also

2662
02:34:37,600 --> 02:34:40,279
Speaker 1: just as a general kind of indicator of the cascading

2663
02:34:40,280 --> 02:34:43,760
Speaker 1: effects that are happening, and we are we're still on

2664
02:34:43,800 --> 02:34:46,039
Speaker 1: the path for kind of large, large scale disasters in

2665
02:34:46,080 --> 02:34:50,160
Speaker 1: a lot of places around the world. Um, the it's

2666
02:34:50,480 --> 02:34:55,000
Speaker 1: around nine of the Earth's land area is in pretty

2667
02:34:55,040 --> 02:34:58,840
Speaker 1: pretty dire risk on our current emission pathway of the

2668
02:34:58,840 --> 02:35:03,240
Speaker 1: Marshall Islands. And I'll all these UM Vietnam, Southeast Asia,

2669
02:35:03,280 --> 02:35:07,680
Speaker 1: Middle East, parts of North Africa, and Central America. UM. Overall,

2670
02:35:07,720 --> 02:35:11,040
Speaker 1: around one third of the land humans occupied are predicted

2671
02:35:11,120 --> 02:35:13,920
Speaker 1: to either drowned by by sea level rise or became

2672
02:35:14,120 --> 02:35:15,880
Speaker 1: or become too hot for human life just by the

2673
02:35:15,959 --> 02:35:18,600
Speaker 1: end of this century alone. So that that will cause

2674
02:35:18,680 --> 02:35:21,959
Speaker 1: you know, my migration, panics and wars and all, like

2675
02:35:22,000 --> 02:35:24,200
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of bad things that we can we

2676
02:35:24,240 --> 02:35:26,680
Speaker 1: can limit that, Like, that is something that we need

2677
02:35:26,720 --> 02:35:29,680
Speaker 1: to limit now, and if we don't, it's still it's

2678
02:35:29,720 --> 02:35:32,280
Speaker 1: still happening. So these are the other kind of things

2679
02:35:32,320 --> 02:35:36,119
Speaker 1: talked about at the end. UM. So that was kind

2680
02:35:36,160 --> 02:35:39,640
Speaker 1: of copy as a whole. UM. The one last thing

2681
02:35:39,720 --> 02:35:42,920
Speaker 1: I want to mention is just how evil Facebook is. UM.

2682
02:35:43,000 --> 02:35:48,440
Speaker 1: So kind of kind of an aside, but UM, Facebook

2683
02:35:48,560 --> 02:35:53,880
Speaker 1: vice president of Global Affairs UH talked um and about

2684
02:35:54,680 --> 02:35:58,840
Speaker 1: Facebook's efforts to combat climate misinformation. UM as the Glasgow

2685
02:35:58,879 --> 02:36:02,800
Speaker 1: somewhat began. But as this was happening, conservative media, let's

2686
02:36:02,800 --> 02:36:05,959
Speaker 1: like Newsmax or we're running ads on Facebook calling a

2687
02:36:06,000 --> 02:36:09,560
Speaker 1: global warming a hoax, gaining hundreds of thousands of views,

2688
02:36:09,879 --> 02:36:12,360
Speaker 1: stuff like you know, Canadas WinCE and Daily Wire, we're

2689
02:36:12,440 --> 02:36:16,000
Speaker 1: spreading climate misinformation. But and you know, as as Facebook

2690
02:36:16,080 --> 02:36:19,560
Speaker 1: is bragging about its ability to to combat misinformation around

2691
02:36:19,560 --> 02:36:23,520
Speaker 1: climate change. Um. The UK based think tank Influence Map,

2692
02:36:23,680 --> 02:36:27,720
Speaker 1: which identified misleading Facebook ads UH from several media outlets

2693
02:36:27,920 --> 02:36:32,600
Speaker 1: UM around Copy also found that fossil field companies and

2694
02:36:32,800 --> 02:36:36,280
Speaker 1: lobbying groups spent half a million dollars on political and

2695
02:36:36,320 --> 02:36:40,560
Speaker 1: social issue Facebook ads during the summit, resulting in over

2696
02:36:40,680 --> 02:36:45,680
Speaker 1: twenty two million impressions, including content that promoted environmental effects

2697
02:36:45,760 --> 02:36:48,960
Speaker 1: under what we would call like green washing. Stuff like

2698
02:36:49,080 --> 02:36:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, the American Petroleum Institute putting up putting an

2699
02:36:52,840 --> 02:36:55,560
Speaker 1: ad out over like a natural landscape as it liked

2700
02:36:55,560 --> 02:36:59,280
Speaker 1: touts its efforts to tackle climate change. UM, so all

2701
02:36:59,360 --> 02:37:01,960
Speaker 1: all of that kind stuff. So I just think it's

2702
02:37:01,959 --> 02:37:05,480
Speaker 1: really dumb because Facebook breaks about its ability to combat

2703
02:37:05,760 --> 02:37:10,160
Speaker 1: misinformation as its running ads saying climate changes the hoax

2704
02:37:10,320 --> 02:37:14,440
Speaker 1: and then doing generally green greenwashing is more common, but

2705
02:37:14,560 --> 02:37:17,720
Speaker 1: still trustrating um And and yeah, just as a note,

2706
02:37:17,800 --> 02:37:19,520
Speaker 1: like we talked about this in the Facebook it as

2707
02:37:19,520 --> 02:37:21,880
Speaker 1: it's a bastards that dropped recently, but like the number

2708
02:37:21,959 --> 02:37:25,000
Speaker 1: one spreader right now of climate disinformation on Facebook is

2709
02:37:25,040 --> 02:37:27,600
Speaker 1: bright Bart, which a lot of the Facebook papers have

2710
02:37:27,720 --> 02:37:30,760
Speaker 1: gone on too. Like the extreme lengths, Facebook executives went

2711
02:37:31,200 --> 02:37:33,640
Speaker 1: to keep bright Bart as one of their like trusted

2712
02:37:33,720 --> 02:37:36,160
Speaker 1: news partners and continue putting their stuff out to a

2713
02:37:36,240 --> 02:37:38,480
Speaker 1: huge audience because it goes very viral. It was good

2714
02:37:38,560 --> 02:37:41,920
Speaker 1: for engagement on the platform, and that's the decision. Facebook's like,

2715
02:37:42,000 --> 02:37:44,560
Speaker 1: whatever they say, this is like when we when we're

2716
02:37:44,600 --> 02:37:47,280
Speaker 1: talking about car carbon credits, when we're talking about like

2717
02:37:47,480 --> 02:37:50,359
Speaker 1: the different proposed solutions, I'll do a bit of waffling

2718
02:37:50,360 --> 02:37:52,240
Speaker 1: because I don't want to come across as too certain

2719
02:37:52,280 --> 02:37:55,080
Speaker 1: about what the right way to go forward is. When

2720
02:37:55,120 --> 02:37:58,640
Speaker 1: it comes to how Facebook has handled climate disinformation, it's

2721
02:37:58,760 --> 02:38:01,879
Speaker 1: very black and white. They enabled it for direct profit

2722
02:38:02,360 --> 02:38:04,720
Speaker 1: and they talked about it, and people within the company

2723
02:38:04,760 --> 02:38:08,360
Speaker 1: were like, Hey, we're deliberately enabling climate change misinformation in

2724
02:38:08,480 --> 02:38:11,040
Speaker 1: order to make more money. Um, it's a it's a

2725
02:38:11,160 --> 02:38:14,440
Speaker 1: it's a very easy case to make. Yeah. So that

2726
02:38:14,560 --> 02:38:18,360
Speaker 1: wraps up my uh, my report back on COP twenty six.

2727
02:38:18,760 --> 02:38:20,280
Speaker 1: I know a lot of a lot of stuff was

2728
02:38:20,360 --> 02:38:22,520
Speaker 1: like there's there's a lot of headlines like before the

2729
02:38:22,600 --> 02:38:24,880
Speaker 1: somebody even ended, before the deal was even finalized, I

2730
02:38:25,000 --> 02:38:28,320
Speaker 1: was like, is a failure, which is like yes, But

2731
02:38:28,400 --> 02:38:31,279
Speaker 1: I think I think it is worth actually really learning

2732
02:38:31,400 --> 02:38:33,440
Speaker 1: what happens at these things, because I think we have

2733
02:38:33,560 --> 02:38:36,760
Speaker 1: this idea that they're like some like mythic secret gathering

2734
02:38:36,959 --> 02:38:39,120
Speaker 1: of people to discuss plans. And it's like no, like

2735
02:38:39,200 --> 02:38:41,920
Speaker 1: you can actually like see everything they're talking about, Like

2736
02:38:41,959 --> 02:38:43,560
Speaker 1: it's it's all out in the open, like you can

2737
02:38:43,600 --> 02:38:46,280
Speaker 1: actually see what what the plans are. It doesn't need

2738
02:38:46,320 --> 02:38:48,920
Speaker 1: to be all shrouded in it. It doesn't need be

2739
02:38:49,000 --> 02:38:52,120
Speaker 1: like shrouded in mystery. So I just wanted to give

2740
02:38:52,160 --> 02:38:54,840
Speaker 1: people like a rundown on what the actual people in power,

2741
02:38:54,959 --> 02:38:57,600
Speaker 1: how they're discussing climate change, and what their expectations are

2742
02:38:58,120 --> 02:39:00,680
Speaker 1: and how you know, expectations have you know, the past

2743
02:39:00,760 --> 02:39:03,720
Speaker 1: five years have arisen by basically a degree, right, because

2744
02:39:03,720 --> 02:39:07,000
Speaker 1: like we're like we can do one point five, and

2745
02:39:07,120 --> 02:39:10,160
Speaker 1: now we're like we can do two point five. So

2746
02:39:10,560 --> 02:39:12,840
Speaker 1: that is what we've done in five years. That's what's happened.

2747
02:39:13,200 --> 02:39:17,959
Speaker 1: And I think that's what justifies the kind of blanket

2748
02:39:18,040 --> 02:39:22,000
Speaker 1: pessimism about anything coming from copy about anything being suggested

2749
02:39:22,040 --> 02:39:25,320
Speaker 1: by like a state actor and international organization, which is

2750
02:39:25,360 --> 02:39:28,600
Speaker 1: that like we've all watched the last twenty years, like

2751
02:39:28,879 --> 02:39:31,240
Speaker 1: they've said a lot of great stuff about what could work.

2752
02:39:31,320 --> 02:39:34,040
Speaker 1: It's like that Nature article about like Okay, well, like

2753
02:39:34,120 --> 02:39:36,120
Speaker 1: you've got a bunch of math here arguing about how

2754
02:39:36,200 --> 02:39:38,640
Speaker 1: it might work. But we've got the last twenty years

2755
02:39:38,879 --> 02:39:41,800
Speaker 1: of policies to snave. But it probably won't right. But

2756
02:39:41,879 --> 02:39:44,040
Speaker 1: it's almost certainly not going to work, right, so we

2757
02:39:44,200 --> 02:39:47,960
Speaker 1: we can say, like, yeah, theoretically this might be helpful,

2758
02:39:48,080 --> 02:39:51,640
Speaker 1: but like, realistically nothing, everything you guys have argued about

2759
02:39:51,720 --> 02:39:55,640
Speaker 1: in the same way has been a miserable failure pretty much. Well,

2760
02:39:56,040 --> 02:39:58,760
Speaker 1: that that wraps it up for us. Uh. You can

2761
02:39:58,760 --> 02:40:02,320
Speaker 1: follow the show on Twitter and apparently Instagram. Um at

2762
02:40:02,360 --> 02:40:05,880
Speaker 1: happened here? Pod and Coolson of Media. We got a

2763
02:40:05,920 --> 02:40:09,560
Speaker 1: new Coolson Media show dropping soon. Uh, Mega Corp. That's

2764
02:40:09,600 --> 02:40:12,800
Speaker 1: pretty exciting. Check it out. It's about how we love

2765
02:40:12,879 --> 02:40:16,280
Speaker 1: Amazon and you should pay the money. I don't think

2766
02:40:16,280 --> 02:40:20,200
Speaker 1: that's what it's about, but anyway, Yeah, so buy some

2767
02:40:20,320 --> 02:40:24,959
Speaker 1: carbon offsets from Amazon and with that, with that, we're

2768
02:40:25,000 --> 02:40:40,800
Speaker 1: closing the show. Welcome back to it could happen here

2769
02:40:40,879 --> 02:40:43,280
Speaker 1: a show about how things are following up art at

2770
02:40:43,320 --> 02:40:45,400
Speaker 1: least generally, a show about how things are falling apart,

2771
02:40:45,760 --> 02:40:48,400
Speaker 1: um and how to you know, maybe maybe not falling

2772
02:40:48,480 --> 02:40:50,400
Speaker 1: apart that much. But we have a we have a

2773
02:40:50,480 --> 02:40:53,320
Speaker 1: little bit of a different episode for you today. A

2774
02:40:53,440 --> 02:40:55,120
Speaker 1: friend of a friend of mine reached out to me

2775
02:40:55,240 --> 02:40:57,080
Speaker 1: recently in the wake of a pair of episodes we

2776
02:40:57,160 --> 02:40:59,800
Speaker 1: did From Behind the Bastards on sexual abuse within the

2777
02:40:59,840 --> 02:41:02,360
Speaker 1: by Scouts of America, which was, if you're not aware,

2778
02:41:02,400 --> 02:41:06,000
Speaker 1: and endemic problem, with more than a hundred thousand victims

2779
02:41:06,040 --> 02:41:08,840
Speaker 1: having come forward in the last year alone. UM. And

2780
02:41:08,959 --> 02:41:11,240
Speaker 1: this is a case that kind of ties into that. Uh.

2781
02:41:11,480 --> 02:41:15,000
Speaker 1: It's it's the case of a young man UM who

2782
02:41:15,080 --> 02:41:17,640
Speaker 1: committed murder in a young man who was also UM,

2783
02:41:18,000 --> 02:41:21,120
Speaker 1: a victim of a terrible series of crime. So I

2784
02:41:21,160 --> 02:41:22,880
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of shine a little bit of light

2785
02:41:23,000 --> 02:41:26,160
Speaker 1: on the case of Heath Stocks today, UM. And to

2786
02:41:26,240 --> 02:41:28,920
Speaker 1: help me do that is Mr Michael Kaiser. Michael, welcome

2787
02:41:28,920 --> 02:41:33,120
Speaker 1: to the show, Good afternoon, Thanks for having me. Michael.

2788
02:41:33,160 --> 02:41:35,480
Speaker 1: Would you like to introduce kind of your affiliation with

2789
02:41:35,600 --> 02:41:40,000
Speaker 1: this case before we go over the broad strokes of it. Sure. UM. Again,

2790
02:41:40,120 --> 02:41:42,720
Speaker 1: my name is Michael Kaiser. I'm a criminal defense attorney

2791
02:41:42,800 --> 02:41:46,640
Speaker 1: with the Last and Cassinelli Firm in Little Rock, Arkansas. UM.

2792
02:41:47,040 --> 02:41:51,440
Speaker 1: This case started in the nineties and I was I'm

2793
02:41:51,480 --> 02:41:53,920
Speaker 1: thirty two, so I was not practicing. Then I came

2794
02:41:54,040 --> 02:41:58,080
Speaker 1: into this case in the last two years after Heath

2795
02:41:58,160 --> 02:42:02,280
Speaker 1: has already I've been sentence to three life sentences, and

2796
02:42:02,560 --> 02:42:06,480
Speaker 1: I assisted him in filing a petition for a commutation,

2797
02:42:06,640 --> 02:42:10,039
Speaker 1: asking for the Governor of Arkansas to reduce those sentences

2798
02:42:10,120 --> 02:42:12,040
Speaker 1: to a term of years and giving him a chance

2799
02:42:12,080 --> 02:42:15,560
Speaker 1: of parole while he is still alive. And and can we, uh,

2800
02:42:15,800 --> 02:42:18,360
Speaker 1: let's go over kind of what happened in this case

2801
02:42:18,480 --> 02:42:22,720
Speaker 1: the basis because this is this is a really sad story, UM,

2802
02:42:23,120 --> 02:42:26,360
Speaker 1: and it's one of those things where there's there's not

2803
02:42:26,520 --> 02:42:29,160
Speaker 1: a lot of I think, easy answers. But yeah, let's

2804
02:42:29,200 --> 02:42:31,320
Speaker 1: let's talk about sort of the broad strokes of what happened,

2805
02:42:31,320 --> 02:42:33,480
Speaker 1: and then we can drill into what what you're trying

2806
02:42:33,560 --> 02:42:37,000
Speaker 1: to achieve here. Sure, So the broad strokes are back

2807
02:42:37,040 --> 02:42:44,200
Speaker 1: in UM, when Heath was a young man, UM, just

2808
02:42:44,720 --> 02:42:48,600
Speaker 1: twenty years old. UM, he was arrested and charged with

2809
02:42:48,879 --> 02:42:53,160
Speaker 1: killing his entire immediate family, both his mother, father, UM,

2810
02:42:53,200 --> 02:42:57,680
Speaker 1: and his younger sister. He was quickly identified as the

2811
02:42:57,720 --> 02:43:04,240
Speaker 1: primary suspect, question confessed, arrested, charged, and within I believe

2812
02:43:04,320 --> 02:43:07,360
Speaker 1: six months, had pleaded guilty to all three capital murders

2813
02:43:07,760 --> 02:43:11,240
Speaker 1: and received a sense of life without parole for each

2814
02:43:11,440 --> 02:43:15,320
Speaker 1: each one of those, for a total of three life sentences. UM.

2815
02:43:15,640 --> 02:43:19,320
Speaker 1: Shortly after he was convicted, UM, it came to light

2816
02:43:19,520 --> 02:43:24,640
Speaker 1: that his longtime boy scout Scout Master Jack Walls had

2817
02:43:24,720 --> 02:43:28,080
Speaker 1: been molesting Heats since he was around age nine or ten.

2818
02:43:28,920 --> 02:43:32,880
Speaker 1: UM that it was a serial sort of abuse that Heat,

2819
02:43:33,040 --> 02:43:35,760
Speaker 1: that Heath was not the only one. UM, that it

2820
02:43:35,840 --> 02:43:41,320
Speaker 1: was particularly brutal, and that his abuse didn't just involve

2821
02:43:41,680 --> 02:43:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, sexual acts. UM, it was kind of a

2822
02:43:44,800 --> 02:43:47,840
Speaker 1: long term I hate to use the term brainwashing, but

2823
02:43:47,920 --> 02:43:50,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people have about what he did to

2824
02:43:50,160 --> 02:43:53,800
Speaker 1: those boys. UM. Heats is not the only life that

2825
02:43:53,959 --> 02:43:57,119
Speaker 1: was ruined. Heath's family is not the only families lives

2826
02:43:57,120 --> 02:44:00,240
Speaker 1: who were ruined. UM, but Heats is unfortunately the most

2827
02:44:00,280 --> 02:44:04,320
Speaker 1: extreme case UM where where he he ultimately committed a

2828
02:44:04,400 --> 02:44:08,680
Speaker 1: crime against against his family. We'll get into the circumstances

2829
02:44:08,720 --> 02:44:09,960
Speaker 1: in a second. I just want to add a little

2830
02:44:09,959 --> 02:44:12,760
Speaker 1: bit of clarification that the scout master, we're looking at

2831
02:44:12,800 --> 02:44:15,240
Speaker 1: between a hundred and a hundred and fifty victims, kind

2832
02:44:15,280 --> 02:44:18,760
Speaker 1: of conservatively based on what I've been reading. Yes, Yeah,

2833
02:44:19,200 --> 02:44:22,240
Speaker 1: and it's it's some of I mean, it's so this guy.

2834
02:44:22,800 --> 02:44:24,080
Speaker 1: Some of it's the stuff that you heard in a

2835
02:44:24,120 --> 02:44:25,760
Speaker 1: lot of these other cases. Some of it is is

2836
02:44:25,879 --> 02:44:28,360
Speaker 1: very unique to this guy. But he would basically he

2837
02:44:28,400 --> 02:44:32,120
Speaker 1: would have people over, kids over camping on his land. UM,

2838
02:44:32,280 --> 02:44:35,720
Speaker 1: he would take them shooting. He worked for an ammunition company. UM,

2839
02:44:35,959 --> 02:44:39,120
Speaker 1: he would molest them. He would also like purchase prostitutes

2840
02:44:39,200 --> 02:44:42,280
Speaker 1: for them. And it was this, UM, I mean a

2841
02:44:42,360 --> 02:44:45,240
Speaker 1: lot of of really some of the worst abuse that

2842
02:44:45,280 --> 02:44:47,920
Speaker 1: I've read about in connection to any of these these

2843
02:44:47,959 --> 02:44:51,680
Speaker 1: boy scouts sexual abuse cases. UM, it's it's pretty harrowing

2844
02:44:51,800 --> 02:44:54,040
Speaker 1: stuff when you read the stories of other kids, UM,

2845
02:44:54,640 --> 02:44:59,720
Speaker 1: who were kind of in the same position that Heath was. Yeah, Unfortunately,

2846
02:45:00,040 --> 02:45:02,520
Speaker 1: you're you're correct. It's you know, every time you think

2847
02:45:02,600 --> 02:45:05,560
Speaker 1: this can't get worse, or this case is so extreme,

2848
02:45:05,640 --> 02:45:08,800
Speaker 1: that you find some other element that's more offensive, more appalling,

2849
02:45:09,400 --> 02:45:13,360
Speaker 1: more victims, more more families ruined down the line. Even

2850
02:45:13,760 --> 02:45:19,240
Speaker 1: um today thirty forty years fifty years later. M. Yeah,

2851
02:45:19,480 --> 02:45:22,640
Speaker 1: so how does the because I mean, one of the

2852
02:45:22,720 --> 02:45:25,520
Speaker 1: things about this is this is a pretty the initial

2853
02:45:25,640 --> 02:45:30,120
Speaker 1: crime here is pretty horrific. Um. And I think it's

2854
02:45:30,200 --> 02:45:32,560
Speaker 1: it's one of those things where it is hard to

2855
02:45:32,640 --> 02:45:34,879
Speaker 1: have a lot of sympathy for Heath until you kind

2856
02:45:34,920 --> 02:45:39,360
Speaker 1: of learn about what this guy like, his his his

2857
02:45:39,640 --> 02:45:41,600
Speaker 1: role in the crime, because it was not just a

2858
02:45:41,680 --> 02:45:45,280
Speaker 1: case of, um, you know, a kid committing murder. It

2859
02:45:45,360 --> 02:45:49,120
Speaker 1: was a case of a kid being um, very deliberately

2860
02:45:49,720 --> 02:45:52,920
Speaker 1: pushed into committing murder. And potentially I think that there's

2861
02:45:53,080 --> 02:45:56,400
Speaker 1: the allegations being made her that he was he directly

2862
02:45:57,000 --> 02:46:01,840
Speaker 1: helped with it as well. Yes, um, so you know,

2863
02:46:01,920 --> 02:46:04,200
Speaker 1: at first glance, yeah, it looks it looks really bad

2864
02:46:04,320 --> 02:46:07,040
Speaker 1: for Heath. Um. But over the years, um, what we

2865
02:46:07,160 --> 02:46:10,440
Speaker 1: have learned is that what what really happened is that

2866
02:46:10,560 --> 02:46:14,440
Speaker 1: Heath had been serially abused sexually, physically, emotionally and otherwise

2867
02:46:14,520 --> 02:46:18,080
Speaker 1: by Jack for a period of ten plus years. His

2868
02:46:18,240 --> 02:46:22,760
Speaker 1: mother discovers the abuse and discusses it with her, her

2869
02:46:22,840 --> 02:46:28,840
Speaker 1: pastor another religious counselor. Uh. Heath informs Jack that you know,

2870
02:46:28,959 --> 02:46:32,440
Speaker 1: his mother is aware and and Jack instructs heath to

2871
02:46:32,560 --> 02:46:36,039
Speaker 1: do as he's been taught. UM, and and to kill

2872
02:46:36,120 --> 02:46:42,200
Speaker 1: the problem. Um. Jack was never convicted with anything associated

2873
02:46:42,280 --> 02:46:45,800
Speaker 1: with the death of of the Stocks family. UM. However,

2874
02:46:46,400 --> 02:46:50,359
Speaker 1: his first set of life sentences for the many assaults

2875
02:46:50,400 --> 02:46:53,360
Speaker 1: that he was convicted of, UM, when they were reversed,

2876
02:46:53,400 --> 02:46:55,680
Speaker 1: it was because the judge in that in that sentencing

2877
02:46:55,760 --> 02:46:57,880
Speaker 1: hearing said, you know that the death of the Stocks

2878
02:46:57,920 --> 02:47:00,640
Speaker 1: family is also on your hands. And because he hadn't

2879
02:47:00,640 --> 02:47:03,280
Speaker 1: been formally convicted of that, he actually had his original

2880
02:47:03,360 --> 02:47:07,560
Speaker 1: life sentences reversed. Every sentencing he got essentially the same sentence,

2881
02:47:07,800 --> 02:47:11,320
Speaker 1: multiple life sentences in additional years. UM. But yes, there

2882
02:47:11,480 --> 02:47:15,640
Speaker 1: there's there is a connection. UM. It wasn't known at

2883
02:47:15,680 --> 02:47:18,640
Speaker 1: the time, or at least it wasn't publicized, And if

2884
02:47:18,800 --> 02:47:20,800
Speaker 1: if it had been, I think the results of his

2885
02:47:21,000 --> 02:47:22,720
Speaker 1: case would be very different. I don't think you and

2886
02:47:22,760 --> 02:47:25,720
Speaker 1: I would be speaking right now. Yeah. And it's I mean,

2887
02:47:25,800 --> 02:47:29,520
Speaker 1: obviously like this is this is this is a thoroughly

2888
02:47:29,920 --> 02:47:34,960
Speaker 1: horrible situation. UM. And when somebody commits three murders, I

2889
02:47:35,080 --> 02:47:37,520
Speaker 1: think even people who are very critical of the criminal

2890
02:47:37,600 --> 02:47:40,440
Speaker 1: justice system should agree that, like something needs to be done.

2891
02:47:41,160 --> 02:47:45,440
Speaker 1: But I it just seems so unfair to lock this

2892
02:47:45,640 --> 02:47:48,600
Speaker 1: kit up for his entire life without kind of and

2893
02:47:48,760 --> 02:47:52,080
Speaker 1: and and acting as if this was just a thing

2894
02:47:52,760 --> 02:47:54,720
Speaker 1: he did on his own, rather than kind of the

2895
02:47:54,800 --> 02:47:58,600
Speaker 1: result of a pretty horrific I mean, one of the

2896
02:47:58,640 --> 02:48:01,960
Speaker 1: most one of the most horrific patterns of abuse and

2897
02:48:02,040 --> 02:48:05,080
Speaker 1: exploitation of a of a child that I can imagine,

2898
02:48:05,800 --> 02:48:08,880
Speaker 1: um And I don't know, I don't know what would

2899
02:48:08,920 --> 02:48:13,560
Speaker 1: actually like help other than getting him into a situation

2900
02:48:13,640 --> 02:48:15,680
Speaker 1: where he's not spending the rest of his life in

2901
02:48:15,720 --> 02:48:17,520
Speaker 1: a prison cell. Like I don't know what the long

2902
02:48:17,680 --> 02:48:21,760
Speaker 1: term for him looks like in terms of rebuilding this

2903
02:48:21,920 --> 02:48:24,920
Speaker 1: guy's potential to have a life, but it certainly starts

2904
02:48:25,000 --> 02:48:27,840
Speaker 1: with him not spending the rest of that life in

2905
02:48:27,920 --> 02:48:32,200
Speaker 1: a jail cell. The problem we've encountered, um with Heat's

2906
02:48:32,280 --> 02:48:35,280
Speaker 1: case is the parole board, and many just even just

2907
02:48:35,400 --> 02:48:39,279
Speaker 1: people that encounter the case wonder why would he attack

2908
02:48:39,360 --> 02:48:42,920
Speaker 1: and kill you know, his immediate family rather than his abuser.

2909
02:48:43,760 --> 02:48:46,560
Speaker 1: And in the twenty five plus years or in the

2910
02:48:46,640 --> 02:48:49,600
Speaker 1: twenty five years or so since this happened, I mean

2911
02:48:50,320 --> 02:48:54,439
Speaker 1: juvenile that our understanding of the juvenile brain, neurocycle psychology

2912
02:48:54,480 --> 02:48:59,600
Speaker 1: in general um has has come leaps and bounds, and

2913
02:48:59,680 --> 02:49:03,680
Speaker 1: so know that a serially abused child has brain damage

2914
02:49:04,240 --> 02:49:07,880
Speaker 1: from really about the time that that starts happening. And

2915
02:49:08,000 --> 02:49:11,960
Speaker 1: so in Heats crazy world, and we do have this

2916
02:49:12,080 --> 02:49:17,400
Speaker 1: in our clemency application. We've had UM abuse specialists evaluate

2917
02:49:17,480 --> 02:49:21,720
Speaker 1: Heath and and see how he you know, his actions

2918
02:49:21,840 --> 02:49:25,600
Speaker 1: conformed to our current understanding within the crazy world that

2919
02:49:25,720 --> 02:49:30,040
Speaker 1: he lived in. He actually was making, dare I say,

2920
02:49:30,080 --> 02:49:34,560
Speaker 1: the reasonable decision. So Jack had demonstrated numerous times over

2921
02:49:34,600 --> 02:49:38,080
Speaker 1: the years he has physical, sexual, and and even control

2922
02:49:38,160 --> 02:49:40,199
Speaker 1: over heats life. He can end it at any time.

2923
02:49:40,360 --> 02:49:44,160
Speaker 1: He explicitly and implicitly threatens the boys all the time.

2924
02:49:44,320 --> 02:49:47,960
Speaker 1: He's got weapons everywhere. He's a Vietnam veteran. He brings

2925
02:49:48,040 --> 02:49:50,080
Speaker 1: them out to his property, shows them how to shoot,

2926
02:49:50,160 --> 02:49:53,120
Speaker 1: shows them what he will do to those who you know,

2927
02:49:53,480 --> 02:49:56,800
Speaker 1: go against him. Um, So, within Heat's world, he actually

2928
02:49:56,920 --> 02:50:02,199
Speaker 1: made a somewhat reasonable decision. He uh, the bigger threat

2929
02:50:02,320 --> 02:50:05,320
Speaker 1: was was Jack. Um. He can't kill Jack, so he

2930
02:50:05,440 --> 02:50:08,000
Speaker 1: has to do the thing to appease Jack to avoid

2931
02:50:08,080 --> 02:50:12,520
Speaker 1: the more severe abuse. That's oversimplifying it, but that's something

2932
02:50:12,640 --> 02:50:15,640
Speaker 1: that I don't think we would have been able to conceptualize.

2933
02:50:15,680 --> 02:50:19,160
Speaker 1: Back in the nineties, you had the element of there's

2934
02:50:19,360 --> 02:50:21,880
Speaker 1: it's it's mail on mail, and we're talking about a

2935
02:50:22,000 --> 02:50:25,640
Speaker 1: very small rural community, UM in central Arkansas, and that

2936
02:50:25,800 --> 02:50:29,520
Speaker 1: element cannot be overlooked at all as well. That was

2937
02:50:29,600 --> 02:50:31,600
Speaker 1: a huge thing that Jack was counting on to keep

2938
02:50:31,680 --> 02:50:35,360
Speaker 1: these boys silent. UM. He explicitly told them, if you

2939
02:50:35,840 --> 02:50:38,640
Speaker 1: tell what happened to you, they're going to think that

2940
02:50:38,879 --> 02:50:45,160
Speaker 1: you are homosexual and a liar. So there's just there's

2941
02:50:45,360 --> 02:50:48,119
Speaker 1: there's just so many horrible things. UM. In this case,

2942
02:50:48,840 --> 02:50:52,600
Speaker 1: Jack had decades of experience doing this and unfortunately, because

2943
02:50:52,680 --> 02:50:54,640
Speaker 1: of his position in the community, the son of a

2944
02:50:54,720 --> 02:50:59,480
Speaker 1: prominent judge, UM, the long time Scout master, the communities

2945
02:51:00,080 --> 02:51:03,520
Speaker 1: man of the Year multiple times, UM, he had access

2946
02:51:03,640 --> 02:51:07,199
Speaker 1: to dozens and dozens of boys, in fact, entire generations

2947
02:51:07,400 --> 02:51:10,600
Speaker 1: of these of these boys in Lono County. UM. Heat's

2948
02:51:10,640 --> 02:51:13,840
Speaker 1: case is just one of many. Unfortunately, it's the most

2949
02:51:13,920 --> 02:51:16,040
Speaker 1: extreme case and it's kind of tests the bounds of

2950
02:51:16,080 --> 02:51:20,920
Speaker 1: our mercy. But the kid that discovered Jack, while he's

2951
02:51:20,959 --> 02:51:24,960
Speaker 1: a hero, ultimately he killed himself and he's not the

2952
02:51:25,040 --> 02:51:28,080
Speaker 1: only one. So unfortunately, the Stocks family are not the

2953
02:51:28,200 --> 02:51:31,240
Speaker 1: only people who lost their lives and not the only

2954
02:51:31,280 --> 02:51:35,080
Speaker 1: people whose lives, just like he's, were completely destroyed by

2955
02:51:35,160 --> 02:51:38,600
Speaker 1: Jack Walls. Yeah, and this is this is an important

2956
02:51:38,600 --> 02:51:41,080
Speaker 1: thing to understand because when we're talking about kind of

2957
02:51:41,160 --> 02:51:44,280
Speaker 1: the the lingering impacts of childhood sexual abuse, it can

2958
02:51:44,320 --> 02:51:47,720
Speaker 1: take a wide variety of forms and when we like

2959
02:51:48,160 --> 02:51:50,040
Speaker 1: but but it but it is important to understand that

2960
02:51:50,160 --> 02:51:53,680
Speaker 1: the damage it can do goes so much further beyond

2961
02:51:54,000 --> 02:51:57,080
Speaker 1: like the physical damage done by the abuse, like these

2962
02:51:57,080 --> 02:52:00,640
Speaker 1: are your your brain is still forming and growing when

2963
02:52:00,680 --> 02:52:04,640
Speaker 1: you're that young, and he this is one manifestation of

2964
02:52:04,760 --> 02:52:08,560
Speaker 1: kind of what can happen um at the more extreme end, admittedly,

2965
02:52:08,840 --> 02:52:11,080
Speaker 1: um as as the result like this is why it's

2966
02:52:11,080 --> 02:52:13,720
Speaker 1: such a heinous crime to abuse a child in this way.

2967
02:52:13,800 --> 02:52:16,160
Speaker 1: And it's just I don't know, like you're right, it

2968
02:52:16,320 --> 02:52:20,560
Speaker 1: is it It tests the limit of um people's capacity

2969
02:52:20,760 --> 02:52:23,520
Speaker 1: for I don't know, forgiveness seems like the wrong word,

2970
02:52:23,600 --> 02:52:27,000
Speaker 1: but like clemency. You know, this again is a pretty

2971
02:52:27,160 --> 02:52:30,840
Speaker 1: heinous crime. Um. But at the same time, I can't

2972
02:52:30,879 --> 02:52:36,000
Speaker 1: bring myself to think that what he endured leading up

2973
02:52:36,080 --> 02:52:38,680
Speaker 1: to this shouldn't have an impact on what happens to

2974
02:52:38,800 --> 02:52:41,960
Speaker 1: him afterwards, right, Like it does. It does reduce his

2975
02:52:42,240 --> 02:52:44,960
Speaker 1: his complicity in this, and I just feel it feels

2976
02:52:45,000 --> 02:52:48,280
Speaker 1: so wrong to say that, like, well, he should spend

2977
02:52:48,320 --> 02:52:52,560
Speaker 1: the rest of his life behind bars, Like that's just

2978
02:52:52,680 --> 02:52:56,600
Speaker 1: not I can't imagine anything could help, Like I can't

2979
02:52:56,640 --> 02:52:59,080
Speaker 1: imagine that could help in any way. Um, just writing

2980
02:52:59,160 --> 02:53:02,400
Speaker 1: this this person and off forever, I don't know. It

2981
02:53:02,520 --> 02:53:05,480
Speaker 1: just is, it's it's fucked. What are the next steps

2982
02:53:05,560 --> 02:53:09,000
Speaker 1: for y'all, for your for the defense team. So at

2983
02:53:09,080 --> 02:53:12,840
Speaker 1: this point, we've already filed a petition UH with the

2984
02:53:13,120 --> 02:53:17,440
Speaker 1: Arkansas governor requesting a commutation. That's not a pardon, that's

2985
02:53:17,480 --> 02:53:20,520
Speaker 1: not something saying say that Heath is innocent. We're asking

2986
02:53:20,560 --> 02:53:23,600
Speaker 1: the governor to modify his sentences to a term of

2987
02:53:23,720 --> 02:53:27,240
Speaker 1: years forty years in each case, to be served concurrently.

2988
02:53:27,360 --> 02:53:33,959
Speaker 1: So in effect, one single sentence of forty years. Yeah. Well,

2989
02:53:34,000 --> 02:53:37,199
Speaker 1: in Arkansas, you're actually at the time he was convicted,

2990
02:53:37,240 --> 02:53:40,480
Speaker 1: he'd be parle eligible at se. So that's twenty eight years.

2991
02:53:40,640 --> 02:53:42,720
Speaker 1: That's not a guarantee of pearle. That is just what

2992
02:53:42,840 --> 02:53:46,320
Speaker 1: it means, parole eligibility. So that's what we've asked for. Um,

2993
02:53:46,400 --> 02:53:49,680
Speaker 1: we think his institutional record speaks for itself, and if

2994
02:53:49,800 --> 02:53:53,040
Speaker 1: and when he is a candidate for pearle, he hopefully

2995
02:53:54,000 --> 02:53:57,160
Speaker 1: will make pearole. He's he's done everything within his power

2996
02:53:57,720 --> 02:54:01,960
Speaker 1: UM to do so. UM. If this fails, it's right now. Uh.

2997
02:54:02,400 --> 02:54:05,080
Speaker 1: We in Arkansas at first goes to the parole Board,

2998
02:54:05,440 --> 02:54:08,320
Speaker 1: who makes a non binding recommendation to the governor. They

2999
02:54:08,440 --> 02:54:13,359
Speaker 1: have recommended that the governor deny it. UM, which is unfortunate,

3000
02:54:13,400 --> 02:54:16,680
Speaker 1: but again it's not binding. UM. The governor now has

3001
02:54:16,840 --> 02:54:20,959
Speaker 1: I believe until February or March of two to issue

3002
02:54:21,120 --> 02:54:25,200
Speaker 1: his decision. UM. He has not yet. UM. We have

3003
02:54:25,800 --> 02:54:28,280
Speaker 1: requested a sit down with the governor. I don't know

3004
02:54:28,400 --> 02:54:30,880
Speaker 1: if we'll actually sit down with Governor Asa Hutchinson. We

3005
02:54:30,959 --> 02:54:34,600
Speaker 1: will sit down with his criminal justice coordinator. UM. We're

3006
02:54:34,680 --> 02:54:37,720
Speaker 1: thankful and lucky to have the support of all of

3007
02:54:37,879 --> 02:54:43,960
Speaker 1: the remaining victims family members. So both sides of Heat's family. UM,

3008
02:54:44,440 --> 02:54:47,160
Speaker 1: you know we have we have extensive support. UM. It

3009
02:54:47,360 --> 02:54:50,760
Speaker 1: wasn't they they A lot of them had to work

3010
02:54:50,840 --> 02:54:52,760
Speaker 1: to get to this point, a lot of them had

3011
02:54:52,800 --> 02:54:55,840
Speaker 1: to understand the true impact of the abuse. But at

3012
02:54:55,879 --> 02:54:58,640
Speaker 1: this point, UM, we have extensive support from both sides.

3013
02:54:58,680 --> 02:55:03,320
Speaker 1: Of his family. UM. As far as we know, there

3014
02:55:03,360 --> 02:55:08,200
Speaker 1: are no objections to his commutation application from from victims

3015
02:55:08,280 --> 02:55:10,800
Speaker 1: family members. The only ones that there have been are

3016
02:55:10,879 --> 02:55:14,240
Speaker 1: from the sentencing judge or from the sentencing court. It's

3017
02:55:14,240 --> 02:55:16,560
Speaker 1: actually not the same judge and the sentencing or the

3018
02:55:16,640 --> 02:55:20,520
Speaker 1: prosecutor from that from that county, again a different person um,

3019
02:55:20,600 --> 02:55:25,120
Speaker 1: but they felt the need to object. I should this fail,

3020
02:55:25,520 --> 02:55:30,880
Speaker 1: we will seek additional post conviction remedies um uh. In Arkansas,

3021
02:55:30,959 --> 02:55:33,520
Speaker 1: we have something called a petition for writ of ericorium

3022
02:55:33,600 --> 02:55:36,720
Speaker 1: nobis UM. You can file it. You have to ask

3023
02:55:36,760 --> 02:55:38,760
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, Hey, is it okay if I file

3024
02:55:38,760 --> 02:55:41,080
Speaker 1: a petition back in the trial court asking them to

3025
02:55:41,120 --> 02:55:45,600
Speaker 1: consider something that, if we had known back in ninety eight,

3026
02:55:45,920 --> 02:55:48,879
Speaker 1: would have affected the outcome of the litigation. In this case,

3027
02:55:49,360 --> 02:55:53,640
Speaker 1: we would point to the we we've had heath evaluated. UM.

3028
02:55:53,680 --> 02:55:57,600
Speaker 1: It will point to that neuropsychological evaluation UM as as

3029
02:55:57,680 --> 02:56:02,880
Speaker 1: new evidence. UM. We couldn't fully make a connection at

3030
02:56:02,920 --> 02:56:06,200
Speaker 1: the time between his abuse and the offense to answer

3031
02:56:06,280 --> 02:56:10,600
Speaker 1: that question why he killed his family rather than his abuser.

3032
02:56:11,040 --> 02:56:14,400
Speaker 1: We now can. And so that's what we're going to allege,

3033
02:56:14,480 --> 02:56:17,080
Speaker 1: is that is that new evidence. Um whether the court

3034
02:56:17,760 --> 02:56:20,840
Speaker 1: will will find that it is remains to be seen.

3035
02:56:20,920 --> 02:56:23,440
Speaker 1: When he tried this on his own about five years ago,

3036
02:56:23,560 --> 02:56:26,560
Speaker 1: the court denied it. He alleged the new evidence was

3037
02:56:28,120 --> 02:56:30,560
Speaker 1: the fact of the long term sexual abuse of him

3038
02:56:30,600 --> 02:56:32,560
Speaker 1: by Jack Walls, and the court in a in an

3039
02:56:32,680 --> 02:56:37,240
Speaker 1: opinion that really does not um, you know, shows shows

3040
02:56:37,280 --> 02:56:40,240
Speaker 1: the lack of understanding of long term juvenile sexual abuse,

3041
02:56:40,480 --> 02:56:43,720
Speaker 1: found that well though you personally were aware of all

3042
02:56:43,800 --> 02:56:45,840
Speaker 1: of that in your own mind because it had happened

3043
02:56:45,879 --> 02:56:48,280
Speaker 1: to you, So that was not new evidence. And I

3044
02:56:48,360 --> 02:56:52,280
Speaker 1: mean we know that the average male who makes this

3045
02:56:52,400 --> 02:56:57,680
Speaker 1: sort of disclosure, it occurs deep into adulthood. So it's

3046
02:56:57,760 --> 02:57:01,400
Speaker 1: just at every level of the system. Even today, we're

3047
02:57:01,480 --> 02:57:04,960
Speaker 1: still feeling the effects of kind of that old school

3048
02:57:05,040 --> 02:57:09,920
Speaker 1: mentality about about this, and it's unfortunate. We could talk

3049
02:57:10,000 --> 02:57:12,920
Speaker 1: about kind of the the car serile state and this

3050
02:57:13,080 --> 02:57:17,720
Speaker 1: idea that like penalty is the way to respond to

3051
02:57:17,840 --> 02:57:19,880
Speaker 1: any kind of crime. But even if you believe that,

3052
02:57:19,959 --> 02:57:23,119
Speaker 1: even if you believe that, like you have to punish

3053
02:57:23,240 --> 02:57:27,600
Speaker 1: people with incarceration when they commit crimes. He's done twenty

3054
02:57:27,680 --> 02:57:32,520
Speaker 1: five years, Like that's no one, No one is discussing

3055
02:57:32,600 --> 02:57:35,480
Speaker 1: the possibility of Heath not being punished for the murder,

3056
02:57:35,680 --> 02:57:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, because it's he has been not just with

3057
02:57:38,560 --> 02:57:41,199
Speaker 1: time behind bars, but the fact that his family's gone.

3058
02:57:41,440 --> 02:57:44,760
Speaker 1: The idea that the state could do anything that's worse

3059
02:57:44,920 --> 02:57:48,440
Speaker 1: to him than than the scout Master did, to be honest,

3060
02:57:48,600 --> 02:57:52,160
Speaker 1: is kind of absurd in my head. But UM, where

3061
02:57:53,120 --> 02:57:56,360
Speaker 1: is there anything that, like, I don't know, I'm trying

3062
02:57:56,440 --> 02:57:59,040
Speaker 1: to determine, like what can be done to help in

3063
02:57:59,120 --> 02:58:02,480
Speaker 1: this situation? Is there any way people can actually help

3064
02:58:02,520 --> 02:58:04,880
Speaker 1: outside of like you and the team that's that's working

3065
02:58:04,959 --> 02:58:09,840
Speaker 1: to try and sit down with the governor? Yeah? UM,

3066
02:58:10,240 --> 02:58:14,120
Speaker 1: I mean public support is is wonderful. The more people

3067
02:58:14,280 --> 02:58:17,080
Speaker 1: that are pointing out the problems in Heath's case and

3068
02:58:17,200 --> 02:58:20,879
Speaker 1: with his sentences and that are reaching out to the governor, UM,

3069
02:58:20,959 --> 02:58:25,120
Speaker 1: the better we think our chances are. UM. I apologize,

3070
02:58:25,160 --> 02:58:27,200
Speaker 1: I don't have the email address on me, but the

3071
02:58:27,280 --> 02:58:32,040
Speaker 1: governor has several publicly accessible UM accounts, as does his

3072
02:58:32,120 --> 02:58:36,480
Speaker 1: criminal Justice coordinator. Even just getting on Facebook UM and

3073
02:58:36,720 --> 02:58:40,080
Speaker 1: and bringing it up. UM, there's a Facebook account managed

3074
02:58:40,120 --> 02:58:43,160
Speaker 1: by one of Heath's friends. I'm in Florida called at

3075
02:58:43,240 --> 02:58:47,199
Speaker 1: Hope for heat Stocks. UM. It's there's also a website.

3076
02:58:47,800 --> 02:58:50,440
Speaker 1: I think it's Hope for Heat stocks dot info. It's

3077
02:58:50,560 --> 02:58:53,720
Speaker 1: probably the most extensive trove of resources in this case.

3078
02:58:53,800 --> 02:58:56,760
Speaker 1: It has almost all original documents. It's where I still

3079
02:58:56,879 --> 02:58:59,800
Speaker 1: go to access things when I need them, even though

3080
02:59:00,200 --> 02:59:03,879
Speaker 1: I am his attorney. So there's a lot out there.

3081
02:59:03,920 --> 02:59:06,920
Speaker 1: There's a lot of ways to support the cause, even

3082
02:59:07,040 --> 02:59:10,120
Speaker 1: just telling other people about it. Um. We do have

3083
02:59:11,240 --> 02:59:18,200
Speaker 1: a documentary in the works. UM. I actually don't think

3084
02:59:18,240 --> 02:59:20,279
Speaker 1: it has a producer at this point, but we're hopeful

3085
02:59:20,320 --> 02:59:23,920
Speaker 1: to have something out in early to make Keith, to

3086
02:59:24,040 --> 02:59:28,000
Speaker 1: make Jack, to make this case more of a household name. UM.

3087
02:59:28,120 --> 02:59:31,119
Speaker 1: The hopes that you know, if any sort of um,

3088
02:59:32,400 --> 02:59:34,720
Speaker 1: you know, if there's more support out there, more pressure

3089
02:59:35,000 --> 02:59:37,960
Speaker 1: on the governor, it will increase the odds that that

3090
02:59:38,040 --> 02:59:40,200
Speaker 1: will do the right thing here. Yeah, I mean, this

3091
02:59:40,320 --> 02:59:43,600
Speaker 1: shouldn't be a political issue. There shouldn't be a left

3092
02:59:43,720 --> 02:59:45,840
Speaker 1: or right thing. Like everyone should be able to see

3093
02:59:47,040 --> 02:59:50,520
Speaker 1: this is uh, this is the result of abuse, and

3094
02:59:50,640 --> 02:59:55,200
Speaker 1: that should have an impact on the what we actually

3095
02:59:55,320 --> 02:59:58,320
Speaker 1: what's actually what our society actually does to this kid

3096
02:59:58,400 --> 03:00:01,320
Speaker 1: in the wake of the crime. Perhaps it's like foolish

3097
03:00:01,520 --> 03:00:05,920
Speaker 1: to hope for some sort of rationality as regards a

3098
03:00:06,040 --> 03:00:08,720
Speaker 1: case like this, But I would hope that we could

3099
03:00:08,800 --> 03:00:13,400
Speaker 1: be rational about this and everyone agree, yes, this kid

3100
03:00:13,480 --> 03:00:18,120
Speaker 1: deserves something more than what he's gotten. UM. I don't know.

3101
03:00:18,560 --> 03:00:23,680
Speaker 1: It's it's a bleak one though. That's putting it lightly.

3102
03:00:24,320 --> 03:00:26,840
Speaker 1: New York recently recently passed a law that kind of

3103
03:00:26,879 --> 03:00:30,480
Speaker 1: acknowledged kind of where you're at with it for victims

3104
03:00:30,800 --> 03:00:34,959
Speaker 1: of domestic or sexual abuse who then committed crimes um

3105
03:00:35,240 --> 03:00:40,280
Speaker 1: that weren't necessarily during the course of that specific abuse UM.

3106
03:00:40,360 --> 03:00:43,840
Speaker 1: And it allowed people like Heath to apply for resentencing

3107
03:00:43,959 --> 03:00:48,160
Speaker 1: if they met certain statutory qualifications um for things that

3108
03:00:48,400 --> 03:00:52,000
Speaker 1: mitigated their crime didn't justify it, but that didn't come

3109
03:00:52,040 --> 03:00:55,760
Speaker 1: out originally. Unfortunately, in Arkansas, we don't have a similar process.

3110
03:00:55,920 --> 03:00:59,480
Speaker 1: The only thing we have available is this clemency commutation process.

3111
03:00:59,840 --> 03:01:02,160
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, as you said, it should be a political

3112
03:01:02,280 --> 03:01:05,640
Speaker 1: but it's not. It's it's explicitly political. The parole board

3113
03:01:05,680 --> 03:01:08,560
Speaker 1: are all appointees by our governor. The governor is an

3114
03:01:08,600 --> 03:01:11,120
Speaker 1: elected official. There's a reason we filed it in the

3115
03:01:11,240 --> 03:01:14,120
Speaker 1: last year of his last term in Arkansas. He has

3116
03:01:14,240 --> 03:01:16,360
Speaker 1: term limited, so we're trying to get him at a

3117
03:01:16,400 --> 03:01:20,040
Speaker 1: point where he's as free from the politics to do

3118
03:01:20,240 --> 03:01:22,920
Speaker 1: what he actually thinks is correct. But to think that

3119
03:01:23,040 --> 03:01:28,520
Speaker 1: politics will be removed is I mean, yeah, it never is. No,

3120
03:01:28,840 --> 03:01:32,080
Speaker 1: this is this is the United States inies, you know,

3121
03:01:32,440 --> 03:01:36,160
Speaker 1: politics is is a factor here, and there's a deeply

3122
03:01:36,280 --> 03:01:40,800
Speaker 1: divisive case in the state and especially in Lono County. Well,

3123
03:01:40,879 --> 03:01:42,960
Speaker 1: it's hard I can imagine it being hard to talk

3124
03:01:43,040 --> 03:01:45,560
Speaker 1: with people about just because again, the nature of the

3125
03:01:45,640 --> 03:01:48,280
Speaker 1: crime is is horrific. And so if you talk about like, well,

3126
03:01:48,360 --> 03:01:52,000
Speaker 1: we we think this guy should have another chance at life,

3127
03:01:52,120 --> 03:01:54,160
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, but he killed three people, he

3128
03:01:54,280 --> 03:01:57,720
Speaker 1: killed his sister, and yes, that is the case, but

3129
03:01:58,040 --> 03:02:01,120
Speaker 1: that's not the only thing going down here. And you

3130
03:02:01,280 --> 03:02:03,800
Speaker 1: just have to I think, if you're if you're at all,

3131
03:02:03,959 --> 03:02:05,920
Speaker 1: even if you're not coming at this from kind of

3132
03:02:06,160 --> 03:02:09,800
Speaker 1: politically where I am in regarding you know, the car

3133
03:02:09,920 --> 03:02:13,360
Speaker 1: serial state, you have to acknowledge that, like, this is

3134
03:02:13,440 --> 03:02:16,680
Speaker 1: not a race Heath's crimes. But Heath's crimes were also

3135
03:02:16,760 --> 03:02:19,360
Speaker 1: the result of not just the scout master's abuse, but

3136
03:02:19,440 --> 03:02:21,760
Speaker 1: of a number of failures on a on a wide

3137
03:02:21,879 --> 03:02:25,400
Speaker 1: level in our society that allowed that abuse to occur.

3138
03:02:25,800 --> 03:02:28,760
Speaker 1: Um and so I don't know. I I feel like

3139
03:02:29,080 --> 03:02:32,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of reasons why it behooves us to

3140
03:02:33,480 --> 03:02:35,560
Speaker 1: give this kid another chance. I don't know. That doesn't

3141
03:02:35,560 --> 03:02:40,160
Speaker 1: make it easier to convince anyone else, But yeah, well,

3142
03:02:40,240 --> 03:02:42,760
Speaker 1: how would this case play out if it happened today

3143
03:02:43,760 --> 03:02:47,880
Speaker 1: versus in even in a more rural part of Arkansas.

3144
03:02:47,920 --> 03:02:50,320
Speaker 1: I think our understanding of several of the issues here

3145
03:02:51,080 --> 03:02:55,320
Speaker 1: it is so has come so far that my hope

3146
03:02:55,400 --> 03:02:57,720
Speaker 1: is Heath would have received a term of years rather

3147
03:02:57,840 --> 03:03:02,080
Speaker 1: than being charged with capital are They originally were seeking

3148
03:03:02,120 --> 03:03:04,480
Speaker 1: the death penalty, and he made a deal for multiple

3149
03:03:04,520 --> 03:03:07,720
Speaker 1: life sentences, both as someone under twenty one and as

3150
03:03:07,760 --> 03:03:10,120
Speaker 1: a victim of long term sexual abuse. I would like

3151
03:03:10,320 --> 03:03:13,800
Speaker 1: to think that if this happened today, even in that county,

3152
03:03:14,440 --> 03:03:16,960
Speaker 1: what we're asking for is something close to what what

3153
03:03:17,160 --> 03:03:21,600
Speaker 1: would what would happen? I would hope, I would hope

3154
03:03:21,720 --> 03:03:25,039
Speaker 1: so that that's why, again, we didn't ask for a pardon.

3155
03:03:25,160 --> 03:03:27,280
Speaker 1: We didn't ask let him out today. We said, let

3156
03:03:27,360 --> 03:03:30,160
Speaker 1: him earn it, let him still feel the weight of

3157
03:03:30,520 --> 03:03:32,600
Speaker 1: of what he has done. But give him that light

3158
03:03:32,680 --> 03:03:35,600
Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel, because you know, there

3159
03:03:35,720 --> 03:03:38,600
Speaker 1: is no one in the Arkansas Department of Correction. Even

3160
03:03:40,480 --> 03:03:43,120
Speaker 1: with that, there's just not a victim like him there,

3161
03:03:43,320 --> 03:03:45,359
Speaker 1: and there's not someone who who could be an advocate

3162
03:03:45,480 --> 03:03:51,560
Speaker 1: for victims like him were he to be released. So yep, well,

3163
03:03:51,640 --> 03:03:53,440
Speaker 1: all right, Michael, is there anything else you wanted to

3164
03:03:53,480 --> 03:03:57,040
Speaker 1: get into with this or any other ways people might

3165
03:03:57,080 --> 03:04:00,040
Speaker 1: be able to help check out the website again and

3166
03:04:00,879 --> 03:04:05,440
Speaker 1: post on social media. Um. Uh. The one thing I

3167
03:04:05,520 --> 03:04:08,640
Speaker 1: think we didn't focus on here is Heath himself. Um.

3168
03:04:08,760 --> 03:04:12,080
Speaker 1: Heath is a deeply spiritual individual. He's someone who lives

3169
03:04:12,160 --> 03:04:15,480
Speaker 1: with this on his conscious almost every moment of the day.

3170
03:04:16,240 --> 03:04:19,640
Speaker 1: This is not not someone who you know, feels he's

3171
03:04:19,680 --> 03:04:23,120
Speaker 1: skated by by avoiding the death penalty. Um. This is

3172
03:04:23,160 --> 03:04:25,880
Speaker 1: someone who has had to learn about trauma, mostly on

3173
03:04:26,040 --> 03:04:29,120
Speaker 1: his own, because with those life sentences, he is ineligible

3174
03:04:29,320 --> 03:04:32,439
Speaker 1: for so many of the programs of the scant programs

3175
03:04:32,480 --> 03:04:34,840
Speaker 1: and resources that we have in the Department of Correction

3176
03:04:35,040 --> 03:04:36,800
Speaker 1: because they don't give it to people who don't have

3177
03:04:36,959 --> 03:04:40,160
Speaker 1: parole dates. So he's had to do a lot of

3178
03:04:40,240 --> 03:04:43,240
Speaker 1: this on his own. He's come a remarkable way. He's

3179
03:04:43,240 --> 03:04:48,560
Speaker 1: still someone that needs um probably extensive treatment and therapy

3180
03:04:48,680 --> 03:04:50,760
Speaker 1: to deal with his own trauma as well as to

3181
03:04:50,879 --> 03:04:54,879
Speaker 1: deal with the effects of what he did on himself. Um.

3182
03:04:55,440 --> 03:04:59,279
Speaker 1: But he's a remarkable individual. He's a great self advocate.

3183
03:04:59,320 --> 03:05:01,760
Speaker 1: I wish you could speak with him as well. Um.

3184
03:05:01,879 --> 03:05:04,440
Speaker 1: He's someone I'm proud to represent. Not just that I

3185
03:05:04,520 --> 03:05:07,360
Speaker 1: do because I get paid. Um, this is why I

3186
03:05:07,440 --> 03:05:10,959
Speaker 1: got into the practice of law. Is this type of case. Um,

3187
03:05:11,600 --> 03:05:15,400
Speaker 1: he is not innocent, but he is not. Uh, he

3188
03:05:15,680 --> 03:05:18,560
Speaker 1: should not be bearing the full weight of what occurred.

3189
03:05:18,879 --> 03:05:21,440
Speaker 1: While you know, Jack is serving a life sentence. I

3190
03:05:21,640 --> 03:05:23,440
Speaker 1: think he should have one or two or three more

3191
03:05:24,040 --> 03:05:27,160
Speaker 1: for his role in this. I mean heats youth and

3192
03:05:27,280 --> 03:05:30,360
Speaker 1: heats brain damage. Because of that, sexual abuse should have

3193
03:05:30,600 --> 03:05:33,200
Speaker 1: and now should be considered. And we just hope the

3194
03:05:33,280 --> 03:05:36,640
Speaker 1: governor will Yeah, yeah, hopefully so. And again, if you

3195
03:05:36,640 --> 03:05:40,160
Speaker 1: want to learn more, there's Heath stocks dot info. Um,

3196
03:05:40,720 --> 03:05:43,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of good about Jack Walls on there

3197
03:05:43,600 --> 03:05:46,360
Speaker 1: as well. UM, and you can there's a link to

3198
03:05:46,400 --> 03:05:51,119
Speaker 1: make a donation to Heath's defense. Um. Alright, well, Michael,

3199
03:05:51,160 --> 03:05:53,400
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on today. UM, and

3200
03:05:53,520 --> 03:05:55,320
Speaker 1: I hope you have a good rest of your week.

3201
03:05:56,120 --> 03:06:10,400
Speaker 1: Now's well, yeah, hey, we'll be back Monday with more

3202
03:06:10,480 --> 03:06:13,120
Speaker 1: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

3203
03:06:13,200 --> 03:06:15,920
Speaker 1: the universe. It Could Happen Here is a production of

3204
03:06:15,959 --> 03:06:18,879
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool zone Media,

3205
03:06:19,000 --> 03:06:21,440
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

3206
03:06:21,520 --> 03:06:23,800
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

3207
03:06:23,879 --> 03:06:26,879
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

3208
03:06:26,920 --> 03:06:29,480
Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone

3209
03:06:29,520 --> 03:06:32,240
Speaker 1: media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.