1
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

2
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 2: So I have to ask you before we get started,

3
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:11,879
Speaker 2: how did you get over here today? What was your

4
00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:13,080
Speaker 2: transit mode of choice?

5
00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:17,520
Speaker 1: It's always fastest when you're going north south downtown to Midtown.

6
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:18,880
Speaker 1: You got to take the train.

7
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,520
Speaker 2: A few weeks ago, I sat down with Jano Lieber,

8
00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,200
Speaker 2: the head of New York's Metropolitan Transportation Authority, the NTA.

9
00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,080
Speaker 1: I am to blame for the fact that the metro

10
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 1: card is going to transit heaving to spend the rest

11
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 1: of its days with its friend, mister Tokin, because we

12
00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,760
Speaker 1: are ready to have an all digital system.

13
00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,519
Speaker 2: The MTA is North America's largest public transportation network, managing

14
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,000
Speaker 2: many of the New York metro areas, bridges, tunnels, buses,

15
00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:51,600
Speaker 2: commuter rail lines, and of course subways.

16
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,800
Speaker 3: Stand clear of the closing doors please fun fact.

17
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 2: The voice of the subway system, Charlie Pellett, also happens

18
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:03,800
Speaker 2: to be a Bloomberg News anchor. But back to liber

19
00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,720
Speaker 2: He rides the subway a lot, and when I tell

20
00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:10,520
Speaker 2: him my subway line of choice, the four, five, six,

21
00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 2: which runs up and down Manhattan's East Side, he approves.

22
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,680
Speaker 2: It's a numbered line which means it's one of New

23
00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 2: York City's oldest, dating all the way back to nineteen

24
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 2: oh four.

25
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 1: And weirdly, they are better and more reliable than letter lines,

26
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,959
Speaker 1: which were built in the twenties and thirties. They are

27
00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:29,880
Speaker 1: the oldest, but the bestest.

28
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,800
Speaker 2: Liber was officially confirmed as MTA Chair and CEO in

29
00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,120
Speaker 2: January twenty twenty two, when New York was still emerging

30
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,520
Speaker 2: from the COVID pandemic and transit systems across the country

31
00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,000
Speaker 2: were dealing with historic ridership declines. Today, ridership on New

32
00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,160
Speaker 2: York City subways is back to around seventy five percent

33
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 2: of pre COVID rates. But even as New Yorkers return

34
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,680
Speaker 2: to public transit, the MTA has a long list of

35
00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:00,440
Speaker 2: other challenges to address. There are writer concerns about safety, ability,

36
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:06,320
Speaker 2: and affordability, and now liber can add new funding threats

37
00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,320
Speaker 2: from Washington to that list. On October first, the first

38
00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,600
Speaker 2: day of the government shutdown, the Trump administration said it

39
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,160
Speaker 2: was withholding eighteen billion dollars in funding that would go

40
00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 2: towards two of the MTA's long awaited transit projects, extending

41
00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,440
Speaker 2: the Second Avenue subway into East Harlem and building a

42
00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,480
Speaker 2: commuter rail tunnel under the Hudson River to connect New

43
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,519
Speaker 2: York and New Jersey. In a press conference a few

44
00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,840
Speaker 2: weeks ago, President Trump called out New York's tunnel project,

45
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 2: and New York Senator Chuck Schumer by name billions and

46
00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,520
Speaker 2: billions of dollars at Humor has worked twenty years to

47
00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:48,200
Speaker 2: get it's terminated. Meanwhile, US Department of Transportation Secretary Sean

48
00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,040
Speaker 2: Duffy has sparred with the city over its congestion pricing program,

49
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,760
Speaker 2: which charges drivers for entering parts of Manhattan in an

50
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,359
Speaker 2: effort to reduce traffic. Duffy has threatened to cut off

51
00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,480
Speaker 2: other transit rotation eight if it's not rolled back. The

52
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,799
Speaker 2: Department of Transportation didn't reply to requests for comment on

53
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,240
Speaker 2: specific funding threats. New York isn't the only American city

54
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,080
Speaker 2: where public transit projects are facing an uncertain future, but

55
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,800
Speaker 2: the city, it's leaders, and it's nearly five million weekday

56
00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,359
Speaker 2: bus and subway riders have found themselves a repeated target

57
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,480
Speaker 2: of the administration's transit attacks.

58
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 1: Obviously, there is a pattern of picking on New York.

59
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 1: They've made it pretty clear that it is intended, i

60
00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,840
Speaker 1: think mistakenly to put pressure on the Democratic leaders in

61
00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,040
Speaker 1: the Senate and the House who happen to be New Yorkers.

62
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 2: I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from

63
00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,280
Speaker 2: Bloomberg News Today. On the show, we're talking about the

64
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:55,120
Speaker 2: future of public transit with MTA CEO and Chairman Jano Lieber.

65
00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 2: How the head of the MTA is trying to expand

66
00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,040
Speaker 2: service and preserve hard won financial stability while the federal

67
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:06,400
Speaker 2: government threatens to derail some of the system's key transit projects.

68
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:16,680
Speaker 2: Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity. The

69
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,080
Speaker 2: MTA has big plans for the next few years. It

70
00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,680
Speaker 2: desperately needs to update its geriatric signal system, upgrade railcars,

71
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,360
Speaker 2: and install more elevators at stations. It has new train

72
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,160
Speaker 2: lines it wants to build, like the Interborough Express or IBX,

73
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 2: which would use an old freight railway to connect parts

74
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,400
Speaker 2: of Brooklyn to areas and queens that are currently underserved

75
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 2: by public transit. MTA's CEO, jan Olieber believes all these

76
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 2: changes will put the MTA on the right track.

77
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,839
Speaker 1: So good stuff is going on. We got the safety

78
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,160
Speaker 1: situation in a much better place, and riders are coming

79
00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 1: back like crazy.

80
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,719
Speaker 2: But many of the MTA's plans come with big price

81
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,600
Speaker 2: tod and the MTA's finances haven't always been pretty. It's

82
00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 2: been struggling to bring in enough revenue to cover its

83
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,200
Speaker 2: expenses since the seventies, and since the eighties, the agency's

84
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,080
Speaker 2: debt has ballooned. COVID brought it to a tipping point,

85
00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,680
Speaker 2: but a bailout from the state in twenty twenty three

86
00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:22,160
Speaker 2: helped put the MTA on more stable ground. This year,

87
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,680
Speaker 2: New York State approved an over sixty eight billion dollar

88
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,040
Speaker 2: five year capital plan for the MTA, meant to cover

89
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:31,320
Speaker 2: many of the system's needed upgrades.

90
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,760
Speaker 1: We are fortunate in the sense that our capital program

91
00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 1: is mostly state and locally funded eighty percent state and

92
00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,599
Speaker 1: locally funded, so unlike a lot of other cities and

93
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,920
Speaker 1: other transit systems, were not as dependent on the federal government.

94
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,200
Speaker 2: But that leaves about twenty percent that does rely on

95
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,800
Speaker 2: federal funding. When I sat down with liber in New York,

96
00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,800
Speaker 2: I wanted to understand how he's adapting to the federal

97
00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,920
Speaker 2: government's shift in priorities, starting with the threat to withhold

98
00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,160
Speaker 2: eighteen billion dollars from two of the agency's key transit projects.

99
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:07,320
Speaker 2: The DOT says it's holding onto these funds. Is they

100
00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 2: assess whether any quote unconstitutional practices related to DEI we're

101
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 2: used by contractors on those projects.

102
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 1: Listen, I'm hoping and expecting that this is a temporary

103
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,480
Speaker 1: and political moment that I believe in the end, we'll

104
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,039
Speaker 1: have nothing to do with the progress on these projects.

105
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,560
Speaker 1: Number One, we are advancing the projects even as these

106
00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,279
Speaker 1: somewhat head scratching messages come from Washington. Number Two, what

107
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,400
Speaker 1: they're doing is saying that because they've changed the rules

108
00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,279
Speaker 1: about what is considered a disadvantaged business enterprise, that we

109
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,080
Speaker 1: have to recertify all the companies who are in that program,

110
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,479
Speaker 1: and that they're going to, you know, not give money

111
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,600
Speaker 1: to the project. The answer is, we will comply with

112
00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 1: whatever the federal rules are. But there's no reason to

113
00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,680
Speaker 1: slow the projects now because we have contracts underway. Contractors

114
00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,520
Speaker 1: are working, they need to get paid.

115
00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,240
Speaker 2: Could this lead to mordalize.

116
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,160
Speaker 1: I'm hopeful that it won't. Right now, the project, as

117
00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,040
Speaker 1: I said, is continue to progress, and so far the

118
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,600
Speaker 1: litigation is messaging that these may not stand even if

119
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:16,040
Speaker 1: they wanted them to. But I'm very hopeful that this

120
00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,520
Speaker 1: is just a temporary political thing. These are great projects.

121
00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,000
Speaker 1: The Second Avenue Subway is going to add one hundred

122
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,600
Speaker 1: thousand riders, more than almost every transit system in the

123
00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 1: rest of the United States, just that one project. And

124
00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,200
Speaker 1: it is even though by no means cheap to build.

125
00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,160
Speaker 1: In New York, we got crazy stuff underground. We have

126
00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:37,760
Speaker 1: communities where dense it's hard to build in the middle

127
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 1: of the densely populated city. But it is the cheapest

128
00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,560
Speaker 1: major rail project per rider in the country.

129
00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 2: Per rider is one way to measure the cost, but

130
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,160
Speaker 2: on a per mile basis, it looks a little different.

131
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 2: Construction colls for the first phase of the Second Avenue

132
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,480
Speaker 2: Subway reached two point five billion dollars per mile, according

133
00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,320
Speaker 2: to a report by New York University's Marin Institute of

134
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,800
Speaker 2: Urban Management, that made it one of the most expensive

135
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,640
Speaker 2: subway lines in the world. Its second phase is budgeted

136
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,000
Speaker 2: to cost another seven billion dollars.

137
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,880
Speaker 1: We owe East Harlem a subway since the nineteen forties

138
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,680
Speaker 1: when they started knocking down the elevated trains. It's a

139
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 1: fairness thing, but it's also an economic development thing. If

140
00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,920
Speaker 1: you can't get people to jobs, in education and everything

141
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,960
Speaker 1: that New York has to offer, you're actually hurting your economy.

142
00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,040
Speaker 2: Are you playing any role in negotiating with Transportation Secretary

143
00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,560
Speaker 2: Duffy or what kinds of conversations are you having with

144
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,160
Speaker 2: the federal government When they make these kinds of threats, we.

145
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,280
Speaker 1: Tend to learn about them not directly from the federal government,

146
00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,320
Speaker 1: but from the New York Post who has the letters

147
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,120
Speaker 1: or the things that are allegedly being communicated to us

148
00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,920
Speaker 1: before we do. But the leadership in this administration of

149
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 1: the Federal trans Administration, which is the sub entity within

150
00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,560
Speaker 1: us DOT that deals with transit funding, is led by

151
00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:01,040
Speaker 1: a guy who is from New York's date, who gets

152
00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,200
Speaker 1: the importance of these investments. And I'm optimistic that over

153
00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,719
Speaker 1: time we're going to have a great working relationship.

154
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,960
Speaker 2: The us DOOT didn't respond to a request for comment

155
00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,120
Speaker 2: about their communications with the MTA. I also want to

156
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,400
Speaker 2: talk about congestion pricing. You know, the MTA is the

157
00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,600
Speaker 2: first US transit agency to really roll this out at scale.

158
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 2: Now we're ten months in. Obviously there are local and

159
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 2: national critics of the program, and we'll get into the

160
00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,400
Speaker 2: question swirling about its future in a moment. But how

161
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,200
Speaker 2: are you assessing the impact of congestion pricing so far

162
00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:34,000
Speaker 2: almost a year.

163
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,640
Speaker 1: It is the rare initiative of government where a huge

164
00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:45,679
Speaker 1: policy initiative is implemented and almost immediately demonstrates unqualified success.

165
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 1: We'll cut the commute times by twenty five percent for

166
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,680
Speaker 1: people who are coming into Manhattan from Jersey or from

167
00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,480
Speaker 1: Long Island or the boroughs. And all of a sudden,

168
00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 1: the drivers who people thought going to be the biggest

169
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,160
Speaker 1: opponents of congestion pricing are telling pollsters that they actually

170
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:06,880
Speaker 1: like it and they want to keep it because they

171
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,200
Speaker 1: value their time. That's saving a lot of time. And

172
00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,480
Speaker 1: then we have all these other ancillary benefits that people

173
00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,040
Speaker 1: have recognized. We have less air pollution, we have less

174
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,280
Speaker 1: injuries to pedestrians and cyclists from cars, we have a

175
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,079
Speaker 1: ton less honking and lo and behold, all the stats

176
00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 1: about New York City Central Business District business activity are

177
00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:29,200
Speaker 1: headed in a great direction.

178
00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 2: Well, there are various lawsuits challenging congestion pricings legality, and

179
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 2: the most significant attack is coming from the Trump administration.

180
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,200
Speaker 2: How do you explain the national uproar about this program.

181
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,440
Speaker 2: This is not a driver in New York who is

182
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,400
Speaker 2: criticizing this program. This is the president of the United

183
00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,319
Speaker 2: States and the US DOOT secretary.

184
00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 1: I think it's just it's become mixed in with some

185
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,640
Speaker 1: of the culture wars that we've seen develop in national politics.

186
00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 1: Transit feels like a blue state thing, so people think, well,

187
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,200
Speaker 1: I'm against it if they're on the other side of

188
00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 1: the political schism. I actually said that, I do think

189
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,840
Speaker 1: that Donald Trump secretly gets why transit is important, because

190
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,160
Speaker 1: he owns a share in office buildings to this day,

191
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,520
Speaker 1: which are filled with people who couldn't get to work

192
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,320
Speaker 1: if they all drove at once, and who depend on

193
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,800
Speaker 1: a mass transit. So, you know, so far, I think

194
00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 1: the rhetoric has diminished somewhat, and I'm hopeful that because

195
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,280
Speaker 1: of the success that it's shown that even you know,

196
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,480
Speaker 1: the people who came out against it at the outset,

197
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 1: like some in the federal government, will make their peace

198
00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:34,640
Speaker 1: with it and we can all move on.

199
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,680
Speaker 2: What are some of the capital improvements that the funding

200
00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,080
Speaker 2: is supposed to cover over the next few years, and

201
00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:42,800
Speaker 2: that has already been covered.

202
00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,200
Speaker 1: Well, you talked about one of them. The Second Avenue

203
00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:48,320
Speaker 1: subway is partially funded by the revenue from congestion pricing, which,

204
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,560
Speaker 1: by the way, is exactly at the numbers that we forecast,

205
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:53,920
Speaker 1: we're going to collect about five hundred million a year.

206
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 1: And this is a Bloomberg podcast, so I'll assume that

207
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,520
Speaker 1: everybody understands that we can bond that into multiple up

208
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:04,760
Speaker 1: to fifteen billion of actual bond revenue for the five

209
00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,280
Speaker 1: hundred million roughly a year. So what are we going

210
00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,200
Speaker 1: to spend it on. We're spending it on new subway cars.

211
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,080
Speaker 1: We're spending it on the Second Avenue Subway to some degree.

212
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,679
Speaker 1: We're spending it on making all of these almost five

213
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 1: hundred subway stations ADA accessible with elevators so that everybody

214
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,560
Speaker 1: can get in and out of the subway system, which

215
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,640
Speaker 1: is long overdue. We do have the Second Avenue Subway

216
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,679
Speaker 1: and the Inner Borrow Express, but ninety percent of our

217
00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,280
Speaker 1: capital program is just fixing signals and physical structure, both

218
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,320
Speaker 1: the elevated structure and the tunnels, and the power systems,

219
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 1: which are something from the land that time forgot, and

220
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:45,640
Speaker 1: just the basics.

221
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,560
Speaker 2: I was shocked to learn just how old some of

222
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 2: the technology that underpins the New York Subway is. For example,

223
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,760
Speaker 2: the signaling system that dates back to the founding of

224
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,000
Speaker 2: the subway itself. How did this technology get so outdated.

225
00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:00,959
Speaker 1: Well, I grew up in New York in the seventies

226
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,719
Speaker 1: when the subway system was really really falling apart. It's

227
00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,440
Speaker 1: the era when we you know, everybody remembers when the

228
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 1: cars had recovered in graffiti and they broke down every

229
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,120
Speaker 1: five thousand miles. My predecessors made the case for a

230
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,160
Speaker 1: capital program, which hadn't existed before, and they bought new

231
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,200
Speaker 1: subway cars, which was a huge step, and they kept

232
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,520
Speaker 1: them from being covered with graffiti, and they fixed the

233
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,559
Speaker 1: track as trains were derailing all the time. But they

234
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:27,920
Speaker 1: were never given enough money to deal with a lot

235
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 1: of the stuff that you know, we you and I

236
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,880
Speaker 1: are just talking about the signal system, the basic tunnel structures,

237
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,800
Speaker 1: making the system ready for the era of climate change,

238
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,280
Speaker 1: moving a lot of equipment out of harm's way because

239
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:44,760
Speaker 1: of rising sea levels and torrential rainfall out of harm

240
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:45,840
Speaker 1: that could be done by water.

241
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,199
Speaker 2: And those were lower level priorities at the time.

242
00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,720
Speaker 1: And now, well they just the money didn't exist because

243
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 1: you know, literally when the capital program started in the eighties,

244
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,520
Speaker 1: they were just trying to keep the system from literally

245
00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,800
Speaker 1: falling apart. You know, this is a trillion and a

246
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:05,320
Speaker 1: half dollar valued system according to financial professionals. And what

247
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 1: they're telling us is you ought to be investing like

248
00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,559
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty one hundred and thirty billion dollars

249
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,440
Speaker 1: over five years if you are following basic kind of

250
00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,720
Speaker 1: business school principles. We got more than half of that,

251
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 1: and that is a lot more than the subway system

252
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:20,920
Speaker 1: and mass transit ever got before.

253
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 2: Were thrilled coming up, should New York City buses be free?

254
00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:43,160
Speaker 2: And why liber doesn't have a corporate iPad anymore. In September,

255
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,360
Speaker 2: the MTA announced that subway and bus fares would be

256
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,840
Speaker 2: increasing from two ninety a trip to three dollars a trip.

257
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,480
Speaker 2: MTA chairman and CEO Janolber has called the increase modest,

258
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,400
Speaker 2: but it still drawn groans from some New Yorkers like

259
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,600
Speaker 2: this one, who was interviewed by ABC seven today.

260
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,680
Speaker 1: The MTA voted to increase the fares to three dollars

261
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 1: on more more wow not but s service that we get.

262
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,320
Speaker 2: The MTA is also phasing out physical metro cards and

263
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,080
Speaker 2: cracking down on toll and fare evasion, which, according to

264
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 2: the Citizens Budget Commission, costs the agency about a billion

265
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,920
Speaker 2: dollars last year. About forty percent of the agency's operating

266
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,840
Speaker 2: budget comes from fares and tolls. I asked liber how

267
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 2: the agency thinks about balancing the MTA's revenue needs with

268
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 2: keeping public transit affordable.

269
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 1: Number one, Mass transit is already one of the very

270
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 1: few things that makes New York affordable. We are not

271
00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,400
Speaker 1: part of the affordability crisis. We're already an affordability solution.

272
00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: At fifteen percent or less the cost of owning a car.

273
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,600
Speaker 1: Transit is really one of the good things from a

274
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,600
Speaker 1: cost standpoint about being a New Yorker. But we want

275
00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 1: to keep it affordable to everybody, make it sure that

276
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,280
Speaker 1: fair invasion is never a crime of poverty. So, together

277
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 1: with the City of New York, we have a so

278
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,240
Speaker 1: called Fairfares program that gives people who are a really

279
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,280
Speaker 1: low income a half price fair just like seniors get.

280
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,800
Speaker 1: And that gradually the eligibility threshold in terms of income

281
00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:19,840
Speaker 1: has been increased, so we think it should continue to

282
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 1: be increased so that you have people who are earning

283
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 1: have minimum wage jobs qualify. Right now, if you have

284
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,200
Speaker 1: minimum wage shops and you are forty hours a week,

285
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,200
Speaker 1: you still wouldn't qualify. That doesn't seem right.

286
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 2: The front runner to become the next mayor of New

287
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 2: York City. State Assembly members or on Mamdanni has another

288
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,320
Speaker 2: proposal for making transit more affordable. He wants to make

289
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 2: bus service free for everyone. The MTA brought in eight

290
00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,280
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars from bus fares last year. Mamdani has

291
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,280
Speaker 2: proposed replacing that lost revenue with new corporate and income taxes,

292
00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,840
Speaker 2: which would require state approval. The city piloted five fair

293
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 2: free bus routes from twenty twenty three to twenty twenty four.

294
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,800
Speaker 2: The MTA found that ridership increased on the free routes,

295
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,800
Speaker 2: but the impact on service speeds was mixed. At the time,

296
00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,480
Speaker 2: Lieber said that the pilot sent quote the wrong message

297
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,639
Speaker 2: while the city was pushing back on fair evasion. So

298
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 2: more than a year later, I wanted to know if

299
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:23,440
Speaker 2: his opinion had changed.

300
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,679
Speaker 1: Well, you know, we're still in an election season, so

301
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna respectfully decline to comment on the specific proposals

302
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 1: because we are aggressively nonpartisan. But anytime you start throwing

303
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:41,679
Speaker 1: money at universally, the danger is that you're throwing money

304
00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 1: at people who don't need the extra subsidy. Our general

305
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,480
Speaker 1: approach has been to try to make sure that the

306
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,440
Speaker 1: people who need a little help and a little leg

307
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,479
Speaker 1: up in paying transit fairs get that.

308
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,399
Speaker 2: So, taking Mom Donnie's name out of it, do you

309
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 2: believe that buses in New York could be free?

310
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,600
Speaker 1: Listen? I again, I'm not going to get into the specifics,

311
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,800
Speaker 1: but I think you get a flavor of what I'm

312
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 1: concerned about, which is the MTA's financial situation is stable,

313
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,960
Speaker 1: but it was hard one and you can lose ground

314
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,760
Speaker 1: very easily if we're going to spend money and it's

315
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 1: going to have to come out of somebody else's coffers,

316
00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:21,439
Speaker 1: not out of the MTAs. We generally would like to

317
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 1: make sure that we're studying it in a really thorough way.

318
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,640
Speaker 1: It's the only way policies of that scale can be done.

319
00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,679
Speaker 1: This is not doctor Frankenstein's laboratory. This is the greatest

320
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,679
Speaker 1: city in the world. We ought to be very thorough

321
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 1: in how we plan for major initiatives.

322
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 2: A lot of our conversation Chairman has centered around the

323
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:46,560
Speaker 2: MTA budget, federal funding opportunities, the capital plan, revenue from fares.

324
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 2: I'm wondering what you would say to critics who point

325
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,639
Speaker 2: to the MTA's deficit and budgetary problems in the past,

326
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,560
Speaker 2: and say, what are you doing to shore up finances

327
00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,040
Speaker 2: and internally to ensure the financial stylity of the.

328
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 1: I'm always glad to be asked this question because you know,

329
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,239
Speaker 1: the MTA, since I got there, is one of the

330
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,919
Speaker 1: very very few agencies of government and maybe in the

331
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 1: private sector as well. As we're actually providing a ton

332
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 1: more service than we did before COVID, but our budget

333
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 1: in real terms is actually lower. We actually, at our initiative,

334
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,720
Speaker 1: have cut five hundred million dollars out of our budget,

335
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 1: our operating budget. That's repeating annual savings by initiating kind

336
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 1: of an internal consultant process. We went around and checked

337
00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 1: on who wasn't using the phones and the iPads that

338
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,040
Speaker 1: they've been issued. Well, they took my iPad away. I

339
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,639
Speaker 1: wasn't using it enough. So doing that, renegotiating our deals

340
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 1: with the cell phone companies who we give a lot

341
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 1: of money to simple stuff, as well as more traditional

342
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,160
Speaker 1: consulting efficiencies, have yielded five hundred million dollars in annual savings.

343
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,880
Speaker 2: I mean you're talking about the scale of New York exhibitions. Obviously,

344
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 2: the MTA is the largest transits in North America, so

345
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,199
Speaker 2: many more people ride public transit here than they do

346
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,160
Speaker 2: in other parts of the country. But what advice would

347
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 2: you have for other transit agencies who are trying to

348
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,000
Speaker 2: think bigger about where their transit systems can go.

349
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 1: The success that we've had in large part been based

350
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 1: on the fact that there is a strong political coalition

351
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: that favors transit, that people understand the benefits of transit.

352
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,120
Speaker 1: They don't regard it as a niche product that's only

353
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,440
Speaker 1: used by some people. In a lot of places, it's

354
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 1: considered to be only for poor people, right, So you

355
00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 1: need to build I'd say the most important thing is

356
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 1: public understanding and coalition building. Build a political coalition, explain

357
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 1: what you're going to deliver, and then show people's success.

358
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,920
Speaker 1: Show people how transit supports enables the economy to prosper

359
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 1: by building coalitions with the business community, those are so

360
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: trains on time and you got it. You have to

361
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 1: provide good service and find ways to provide more service

362
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: because there's a close relationship between writer's satisfaction and the

363
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 1: predictability and the level of service. And I think we've

364
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,880
Speaker 1: crossed into a good place by growing.

365
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 3: Service This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. To

366
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 3: get more from The Big Take and unlimited access to

367
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 3: all of bloomberg dot com, subscribe today at bloomberg dot

368
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,120
Speaker 3: com slash podcast offer. If you like this episode, make

369
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 3: sure to follow and review The Big Take wherever you

370
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 3: listen to podcasts. It helps people find the show. Thanks

371
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 3: for listening. We'll be back tomorrow