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Speaker 1: you Express pros dot com. Now here's a highlight from

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Speaker 1: coast to coast AM on iHeart Radio, Kevin Randall back

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Speaker 1: with us. He's got a winner here. Kevin has for

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Speaker 1: more than forty five years study UFO phenomena in all

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Speaker 1: various incarnations. His training by the Army in the Air

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Speaker 1: Force provides him with a keen insight into the operations,

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Speaker 1: protocols of the military, their investigations, and the UFOs. He

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Speaker 1: has investigated many, many cases and has been a regular

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Speaker 1: guest here on Coast to Coast. His latest work is

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Speaker 1: called Encounter in the Desert. It is about the Lonnie

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Speaker 1: Zamora case that you just heard a little clip about

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Speaker 1: from the History Channel. Truly remarkable, Kevin, welcome back. First

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Speaker 1: of all, good to have you again. George is wonderful

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Speaker 1: to be back. I haven't talked to you for literally years.

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Speaker 1: What an incredible story. I mean, we've lost Lonnie, he

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Speaker 1: passed away a couple of years ago, but my gosh,

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Speaker 1: I mean you talk about credibility and understanding and investigative procedure,

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Speaker 1: this guy had it all, Kevin, Lonnie Zamora is a

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Speaker 1: very credible witness. He got within thirty feet of the object.

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Speaker 1: He reported on the beings, the creatures that he saw

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Speaker 1: about it. Uh, there really isn't much place to go now.

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Speaker 1: For a long time I thought the problem with the story,

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Speaker 1: it's a single witness. It's just Lonnie Zamora. Nobody else

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Speaker 1: saw anything, nobody else heard anything. Turns out that doesn't

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Speaker 1: that isn't true. We're going to talk about a lot

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Speaker 1: of different things and get some new information from you.

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Speaker 1: But you have investigated and looked at Kevin in your

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Speaker 1: career many many cases. What made you select this one

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Speaker 1: this time? Well? The interesting thing was I was hosting

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Speaker 1: a radio show on the Excellent Broadcast Network and I

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Speaker 1: got two guys on their Ben Moss and Tony Angiola.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about the Lonnie Zamora case and they

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Speaker 1: said something to me that that tripped me up. They

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Speaker 1: said that they had there had been three people had

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Speaker 1: called the police station prior to five in the evening

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Speaker 1: about this object they had seen in the sky or

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Speaker 1: this flame they had seen in This guy and I

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Speaker 1: had never heard this sort of thing before, and I

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Speaker 1: asked him a couple of times. I said, did you

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Speaker 1: look at the police logs? Did you look at the

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Speaker 1: police logs? And they never got an answer. They kind

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Speaker 1: of went off on a tangent. Because of that and

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Speaker 1: uh controversy over the symbol that Lonnie Zamora saw on

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Speaker 1: the craft, I got interested in it. So I went

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Speaker 1: back and started looking at the Project Bluebook Clioles and

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Speaker 1: looking for information that would corroborate the idea that there

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Speaker 1: were additional witnesses, and I was able to find that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing, and they back up what he said. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: well the descriptions they had. But what was important was

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Speaker 1: um on the night this happened, April, Army officer, sorry,

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Speaker 1: Army officer, Captain Richard Holder and an FBI agent interviewed

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Speaker 1: Lonnie More in the police station. And I'm looking through

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Speaker 1: this and I find a half page report that Holder

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Speaker 1: had submitted to his superiors at the Pentagon that talked

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Speaker 1: about the police station getting three telephone calls from witnesses

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Speaker 1: about what they had seen in Oily. Nobody followed up

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Speaker 1: on that, bizarre but I was able to find corroboration

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Speaker 1: of that story that there were three additional witnesses that

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Speaker 1: had called in. I'm thinking in nine, if I was

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Speaker 1: there and we know the path the object took, it

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Speaker 1: would have been easy to find those people because Sokorral

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Speaker 1: wasn't that big of a town, and you had the

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Speaker 1: path he to go knock on doors and find those people.

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Speaker 1: But nobody ever followed up on that. I just found

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Speaker 1: that incredible. The Lorenzen's, Carl and Jim Lorenzen, who ran

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Speaker 1: the Aerial Phenomenal Research Organization, were there within forty eight hours.

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Speaker 1: Nightcap had raised Stanford there within a couple of days,

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Speaker 1: Jalen Heineck and David Mooney from the Air Force Project

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Speaker 1: Blue Bool. There wasn't it this case that kind of

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Speaker 1: turned Heinick around and making him more of a believer.

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Speaker 1: I think it had something to do with it absolutely.

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Speaker 1: And it also interesting is Hector Quintinella, who was the

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Speaker 1: chief of Project Blue Book, in his memoirs, wrote that

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Speaker 1: this is the case he wanted to solve. He wanted

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Speaker 1: an answer for this one because he knew the hobbyists

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Speaker 1: would just go nuts because here's a case of a

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Speaker 1: landed craft and alien creatures. He couldn't find an answer.

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Speaker 1: And if he could have found anything that would have

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Speaker 1: suggested that it had a tradiful explanation, he'd have been

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Speaker 1: shouting it from the rooftops. And he always said that

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Speaker 1: he thought that the answer was in Lonny Zamora's head,

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Speaker 1: meaning that he had something or heard something that would

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Speaker 1: have solved it for him. But he couldn't find an answer,

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Speaker 1: and Quintinella went to hallam An Air Force Base which

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Speaker 1: they were doing a lot of back black projects in

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Speaker 1: White Sands Missile Range looking for this. And he had

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Speaker 1: orders from his higher headquarters letting him to see all

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Speaker 1: the top secret materials so he could go anywhere on

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Speaker 1: those bases and look at any of the projects they

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Speaker 1: had going on, and could find nothing that would account

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Speaker 1: for the Zamora siding. Do we know what kind of

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Speaker 1: police office or Lonnie Zamora was, Did he have any

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Speaker 1: problems or any curred or anything like that. It seemed

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Speaker 1: that the local youth didn't like him because he gave

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Speaker 1: him speeding tickets. How that happens? Yeah, you know? Um.

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Speaker 1: Recently and this really annoys me, there has been suggesting

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Speaker 1: that Lonnie Zamora drank a lot. How did that pop up?

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Speaker 1: I don't know where it came from, but I can't

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Speaker 1: think of a police officer or a military person I

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Speaker 1: know that hasn't had a drink once in a while,

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Speaker 1: which doesn't of course affect a competence well. And and

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Speaker 1: if it affected him, they surely would have reprimanded him

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Speaker 1: and it would have been in his file and we

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Speaker 1: all would have known about it by and and he

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Speaker 1: continued on as a police officer for a number of

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Speaker 1: years after this event, and later on he finally um

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Speaker 1: I Guess retired from the police force and took up

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Speaker 1: another city drop job until he retired. He was a

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Speaker 1: member of the New Mexico National Guard and he retired

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Speaker 1: from that. So he had a lot of things going

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Speaker 1: for him. All right, let's kind of review a little

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Speaker 1: bit first, Kevin, before we get into some of this

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Speaker 1: incredible new information that you've got. So Wannie Zamora is speeding,

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Speaker 1: chasing a car. What happens He uh, hanging back from

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Speaker 1: the car. He thinks he knows who the driver is,

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Speaker 1: but he hangs back from the car because he wants

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Speaker 1: to get a good reading on the speed, not using

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Speaker 1: radar obviously, and he here's a war in the distance.

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Speaker 1: He thinks the dynamite check is blown up, and he

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Speaker 1: decides that's a much more important thing to go, and

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Speaker 1: he heads out to the outskirts of Pound driving up

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Speaker 1: h hills and down that sort of thing on the sand,

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Speaker 1: not really on roads, and he comes over h top

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Speaker 1: of the ridge and he sees below him this thing

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Speaker 1: that he thinks is an overturned car, and he tries

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Speaker 1: to get up the hill a couple of times, he

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Speaker 1: gets back, gets over the top, and his heading on

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Speaker 1: down eventually stops his car. He realizes it's not an

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Speaker 1: overturned car. He gets out, and he walked down towards

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Speaker 1: the area. And according to everything that I can find,

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Speaker 1: and I think this is corroborated by some of the

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Speaker 1: other people that investigated earlier, he got within thirty feet

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Speaker 1: of us, so we've got a good look at the

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Speaker 1: darn thing. And he got to look good look at

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Speaker 1: the alien crea just thought they were the size of

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Speaker 1: a ten or twelve year old, called them, called them

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Speaker 1: kids or small adults, was what he saw. Um When

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Speaker 1: they spotted him, they seemed surprised. They ran around behind

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Speaker 1: the craft. It was sound like a hatch closing. The

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Speaker 1: thing took off in a roar and disappeared in the distance.

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Speaker 1: He called the police station. He hoped that he could

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Speaker 1: get one of his colleagues there to look out one

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Speaker 1: of the windows and see the thing in the sky.

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Speaker 1: But I think the windows of the station were oriented improperly,

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Speaker 1: so they couldn't do that. And he asked for his

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Speaker 1: friends Sam Chevez to join him out there, and Chavez

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Speaker 1: got out there in a couple of minutes. There is

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Speaker 1: a discussion that that Chavez may have seen the thing

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Speaker 1: in the distance, that Chavez would not tell anybody about that,

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Speaker 1: and I think that was evolved out of the treatment

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Speaker 1: that saw Lonnies and more getting people kind of making

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Speaker 1: fun of him for seeing flying saucers and a little

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Speaker 1: was there any evidence any indentations and he burns in

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Speaker 1: the in the ground that they were able to see

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Speaker 1: or get. There were landing geared races. There were four

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Speaker 1: landing gear traces on the ground. When they made their measurements,

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Speaker 1: they realized these weren't excavations. It was something that had

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Speaker 1: been heavy, had been pressed into the ground, so it

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Speaker 1: wasn't like John Lonny's. The more got to shovel out

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Speaker 1: and dug some holes to make him look good. There

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Speaker 1: were a couple of circular marks uh there that they

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Speaker 1: thought might have been some kind of a ladder that

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Speaker 1: had come out of the craft, and there was some

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Speaker 1: kind of footprint type things there that Richard Holder, who

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Speaker 1: was the uprange commander that the stallion station commander at

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Speaker 1: White Sands, which was his duty station, was closer to

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Speaker 1: to Coral than it was to Alama Gordo, so he

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Speaker 1: was He was one of the first people called in,

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Speaker 1: you've got um, Sam's Zamora. I'm sorry, Sam savez getting

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Speaker 1: there looking at this, he seeds the indentations, Um, there's

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Speaker 1: a bush that seems to be smoking, as if the scorched,

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Speaker 1: but it wasn't. It was it was cool to the touch.

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Speaker 1: It was smoking, but it was cool to the touch.

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Speaker 1: And later analysis from samples they took found no evidence

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Speaker 1: to any kind of an accelerant. There were no petrochemical

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Speaker 1: evidences on it, so they don't know what caused it

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Speaker 1: to burn and smoke burned grass around it as well

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Speaker 1: that they took samples of the Holder took samples. The

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Speaker 1: thing that kind of made me laugh about this is

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Speaker 1: I was wondering what happened to the samples that Holder took,

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Speaker 1: and Ray Stanford says that when he was out there

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Speaker 1: and Heinich was out there, he didn't have anything to

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Speaker 1: collect samples, and he thought that was odd. But I

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Speaker 1: learned that Holder gave her all the samples that he

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Speaker 1: had taken to Heineck, so he had plenty of samples

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Speaker 1: that were taken that very evening that the thing took off.

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Speaker 1: How the thing takes off and disappears in the distance.

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Speaker 1: But there were a number of other police officers and

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Speaker 1: officials that came out. Holder got out there that night.

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Speaker 1: The FBI agent Burns, Arthur Burns got out there. Burns said,

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Speaker 1: or in Holder's report it says, I don't mention that

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Speaker 1: the FBI was involved, which I thought was. Now this

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Speaker 1: happened five years before we landed on the Moon. Yes,

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Speaker 1: this area, I'm told was also a testing site for

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Speaker 1: the lunar Landers, that they would test them. They would,

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Speaker 1: you know, they would come down with their engines running, uh,

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Speaker 1: and they'd have parachutes, but they would land and then

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Speaker 1: maybe take off again. Rule this out for me. Not

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Speaker 1: in nineteen when they were what they were testing at

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Speaker 1: White Sands at the time were lifted by helicopters. Now

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Speaker 1: you would have seen that or heard it absolutely, and

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Speaker 1: I think there was all. In fact, quentin Ella said

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Speaker 1: that that was what they thought, and he checked into

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Speaker 1: that and they couldn't find anything. There was apparently a

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Speaker 1: test of some kind of the lunar lander earlier in

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Speaker 1: the day, but this was um one that they had

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Speaker 1: to lift by helicopters. They may have been testing them

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Speaker 1: with the engine running in California, but they weren't doing

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Speaker 1: that in New Mexico. And there's no record to show

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Speaker 1: that it was a lunar lander or anything being being

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Speaker 1: flown out of White Sands or out of Alama Gordo

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Speaker 1: that would account for it as well. So you're going

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Speaker 1: to rule that out then, that that he saw a

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Speaker 1: lunar lander, absolutely, and in fact, the chief of Project

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Speaker 1: Bluebook ruled it out. And uh, I think that is

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Speaker 1: a very credible thing, because here's a guy that wanted

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Speaker 1: to explain it, but he ruled out all these experimental craft.

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Speaker 1: And I can't think of anything that we'd have been

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Speaker 1: testing in nineteen sixty four that would have been top

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Speaker 1: secret in nineteen sixty four that we wouldn't know about today.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's fifty years ago. And you think about

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty before you go back fifty fifty years,

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Speaker 1: you'd be talking about biplanes that didn't have much of

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Speaker 1: a way of um, they weren't very reliable and that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. And so I mean, in today's environment,

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Speaker 1: there would be nothing that would have been classified then

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Speaker 1: that we wouldn't know about today that would account for this.

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Speaker 1: Nobody's been able to find anything. Kevin Randall with us.

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Speaker 1: His latest book is called Encounter in the Desert, The

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Speaker 1: Case for the Alien Contact that skoe about Cooro, New

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Speaker 1: Mexico and the police officer Lonnie Zamora. Uh until the

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Speaker 1: day he died. He never changed his story, did he know,

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Speaker 1: but he was very reticent to talk about it as well.

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Speaker 1: And a friend, Bob Kornette, who was interested in astronomy.

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Speaker 1: He and I had actually studied astronomy at the University

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Speaker 1: of Iowa, and he was going to the very large

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Speaker 1: array which is out in the Magdalena area of New

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Speaker 1: Mexico on the plains of Sant Augustin, and enormous radio

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Speaker 1: telescope array, and he was I think it's but it's

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Speaker 1: not that far from so Coral. So he's in the

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Speaker 1: corral and he looks at Lonnie Zamora in the phone

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Speaker 1: book because he's interested in UFOs as well, and calls

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Speaker 1: him and the Morris as well, we're having a pick

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Speaker 1: a barbecue. You're welcome to come down, but we're not

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about flying saucers. So he's very ready to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. I talked to a fellow named Paul Harden.

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Speaker 1: He talked a little bit more about it, I think

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Speaker 1: right away, and then he stopped. I think the first

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Speaker 1: night literally was interrogated by the FBI in the Army UM,

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Speaker 1: but the story got out and there was Burns who

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Speaker 1: was the FBI and said, don't talk about the little guys,

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Speaker 1: because you know, people make fun of you, and of

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Speaker 1: course that's exactly what happened. So from that point on

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Speaker 1: he was very reticin to talk about the The impression

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Speaker 1: I get from the documentation that I was able to

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Speaker 1: see was that he and Sam cheb Has both thought

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Speaker 1: it was some kind of a black project, something terrestrially based,

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Speaker 1: and he would get in trouble for talking about it.

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Speaker 1: So he was very right red. What did he think

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Speaker 1: the little alien creatures were. He described them as uh,

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Speaker 1: he used the term people. At one point he called

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Speaker 1: them persons. He suggested they were uh uh, children of ten,

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Speaker 1: ten twelve years old, small adolf. So they're clearly where

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Speaker 1: he was thinking of them in terms of humans as

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Speaker 1: opposed to human ois. But little people, little people, smaller,

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Speaker 1: smaller than average. So at no point did he think, boy,

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Speaker 1: these are strange alien grays or anything like that. No. No,

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Speaker 1: the impression I get from reading all the documentation, from

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Speaker 1: talking to people that knew him and talked about that, um,

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Speaker 1: he just wasn't thinking in the terms of alien creatures.

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Speaker 1: He was thinking in the terms of something terrestrially based.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one a m. Eastern and go to Coast to Coast

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Speaker 1: am dot com for more