WEBVTT - Napoleon's Josephine (with Jennifer Wright)

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim

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<v Speaker 1>and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hello, welcome

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<v Speaker 1>to a very special episode of Noble Blood. I am

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<v Speaker 1>here with my friend, the brilliant writer and historian Jennifer Wright.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi Jennifer, Hi Danna. I am so happy to be

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<v Speaker 1>here again. I am genuinely thrilled to be doing this

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<v Speaker 1>episode with you. We are going to be talking about

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<v Speaker 1>Josephine Bonaparte, which was not her actual name, really it

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<v Speaker 1>was not, but for popular reference, Josephine Bonaparte. And what

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<v Speaker 1>I find very exciting is coincidentally, both you and I

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<v Speaker 1>separately saw the Napoleon movie, the Wordly Scott movie. Last night.

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<v Speaker 1>We did. Yeah. I was at the Americana. I was

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<v Speaker 1>at the Grove. Oh my god. We were both doing

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<v Speaker 1>our Rick Caruso Many Many Town. That's a very la

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<v Speaker 1>thing to say. I really liked it. I had a blast.

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<v Speaker 2>I really enjoyed it. I think there are some historical accuracies.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think they matter. I think there are historical

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<v Speaker 2>accuracies in Marie Antoinette by Sophia Coppola, doesn't stop it

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<v Speaker 2>from being an amazing movie. I think their historical inaccuracies

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<v Speaker 2>in Marie Antoinette starring Norma Shear doesn't make it less

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<v Speaker 2>of an amazing powerhouse performance by Norma Fear.

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<v Speaker 1>I have gone on the record and I will continue

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<v Speaker 1>to go on the record and say that I think

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<v Speaker 1>historical fiction should not operate like a history book. No,

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<v Speaker 1>it's entertainment. It's entertainment. It's about theme, it's about character,

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<v Speaker 1>it's about it's about vibes. It's vibe.

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<v Speaker 2>Slowly do they get the vibes of French Revolution and

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<v Speaker 2>the vibes of Napoleon being a very unpleasant little bit.

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<v Speaker 1>I wrote my letterbox review, which is the most film

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<v Speaker 1>broth thing I'll ever say. And then my letterbox review

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<v Speaker 1>is like, it is a misconception that Napoleon was short.

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<v Speaker 1>He was average. I that was average high time, was.

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<v Speaker 2>Very hunched, and he was poorly fed growing up because

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<v Speaker 2>his mother cared a great deal about having furniture in

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<v Speaker 2>about Saha, but not providing food for her children.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course there was the discrepancy in the English

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<v Speaker 1>system of measurement and the French system of measurement. And

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<v Speaker 1>also as a first.

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<v Speaker 2>Go if you were British Willington was five ten.

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<v Speaker 1>I and Napoleon had had two guards next tohem who

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<v Speaker 1>are very tall, very tall. But my letterbox review was

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<v Speaker 1>that Napoleon was not short. But as this movie makes

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<v Speaker 1>UPU net clear, he was Europe's weirdest little guy. That

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<v Speaker 1>that is exactly right, that is absolutely true. And the

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<v Speaker 1>beautiful Vanessa Kirby played Josephine, which we'll get into her life,

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<v Speaker 1>but to Segue, I will say I did find it

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<v Speaker 1>very hollywood that they got an actress like fifteen years

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<v Speaker 1>younger than Joaquin Phoenix, when.

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<v Speaker 2>When in reality, Josephine was six years older then Napoleon,

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<v Speaker 2>and Napoleon was very young when they met. It's twenty four.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell me about Josephine before they met. Well, I want

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<v Speaker 2>to talk about another person who I know we've talked

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<v Speaker 2>about on the podcast before as well, and that's Madame

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<v Speaker 2>Pompadour and the reason that my favorite historical woman, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's because when Josephine was fifteen years old, she was

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<v Speaker 2>told by a fortune teller that she would marry a

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<v Speaker 2>dark man who would cover the world in glory and

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<v Speaker 2>make her greater than a queen. And I was so

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<v Speaker 2>strict by this because this also happened to Madame Pompadour

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<v Speaker 2>Louis fifteenth mistress.

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<v Speaker 1>These fortunetage are just out here every pretty young girl.

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<v Speaker 2>I think these fortune tellers were not uncannily accurate. I

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<v Speaker 2>think they just realized that if a young girl comes in,

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<v Speaker 2>just tell her she's going to be a princess.

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<v Speaker 1>And if she's a very beautiful, they're like, you will

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<v Speaker 1>marry a great man, a great man. Y, yes, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>When Madame Pompter was nine, the fortune teller told her

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<v Speaker 2>that she would capture the heart of a king and

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<v Speaker 2>be not quite a queen, but a little queen. And

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<v Speaker 2>just to give you a little bit of perspective on

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<v Speaker 2>Madame Pompadour, because I think there's such fascinating archetypes of

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<v Speaker 2>pre revolutionary and post revolutionary women. Madame Pompadour, who was

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<v Speaker 2>born Jean Pusson, was by almost any stretch of the

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<v Speaker 2>definition a genius. She was extremely well educated. She was

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<v Speaker 2>almost compulsively well read, so much so that the most

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<v Speaker 2>famous portraits of her by Bouchet show her reading and

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<v Speaker 2>surrounded by more books. When she was told to get

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<v Speaker 2>married by her family, she married a wealthier man who

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<v Speaker 2>was not excited about the prospect of marrying this middle

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<v Speaker 2>class bourgeois woman. He met her, he was immediately in

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<v Speaker 2>love with her, so much so that he was devastated

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<v Speaker 2>when the king took her for his mistress. As soon

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<v Speaker 2>as she was let loose in Paris, she dominated every

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<v Speaker 2>literary salon. Vul Teraire became her closest friend. She was

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<v Speaker 2>able to secure him a position at court. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's pretty well established that once she was made

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<v Speaker 2>the King's mistress, she was a great champion of the enlightenment.

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<v Speaker 2>She fought against censorship. She was friends with Didero and Montesquie.

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<v Speaker 2>She fought the Catholic Church to create a French encyclopedia.

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<v Speaker 2>The king considered her his best adviser and consulted with

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<v Speaker 2>her on every matter. He should not have done that.

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<v Speaker 2>During the seven years of war, not know where to

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<v Speaker 2>place cannons, she was very.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, you know, and you know, I was gonna say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, who knew how to play, can't place cannons,

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<v Speaker 1>just Napoleon. But I think it's also true that. And

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to dismiss Madame Pompadour as being frivolous,

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<v Speaker 1>because I think she was very concerned about, for instance,

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<v Speaker 1>what she saws overreached the Catholic Church, or censorship or

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<v Speaker 1>the continued expansion of the Russian military. The metal.

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<v Speaker 2>Pompadour's greatest day to day concerned with whether or not

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<v Speaker 2>she was able to sutly satisfy the king nine times

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<v Speaker 2>a day as he requested. Wow, all right, And when

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<v Speaker 2>her frail health after six years meant that she was

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<v Speaker 2>no longer able to do that, the King just gave

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<v Speaker 2>her a new role at court that basically equated to

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<v Speaker 2>the King's best friend.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>She celebrated it by giving him a naked statue of

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<v Speaker 2>herself popping her breasts at him, entitled the Spirit of Friendship.

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<v Speaker 1>Ha ha ha. That's a great that's a great inspiray. And

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<v Speaker 1>she's perhaps best remembered for her statement apri now lad

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<v Speaker 1>Yeu's that came after the epic failure that was the

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<v Speaker 1>Seven Years War, when Francis army was just destroyed and

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<v Speaker 1>their economy entirely depleted. And what it means is after

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<v Speaker 1>us will come the flood.

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<v Speaker 2>And Josephine was really bored into that flood quite literally.

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<v Speaker 2>She was born Marie joseph Rose tache de la pacherie.

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<v Speaker 2>She would come to be known as Josephine only when

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<v Speaker 2>Napoleon started calling her Josephine. She was largely known as

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<v Speaker 2>Rose throughout her life.

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<v Speaker 1>Untilda, well, that's the good thing about having three hyphenated

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<v Speaker 1>names is people can just choose their favor and go

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<v Speaker 1>with it.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is exactly what happened to Josephine. She was

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<v Speaker 2>born on a sugar plantation in Martinique in seventeen sixty three,

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<v Speaker 2>and she was born a year before Madame Pompadour died

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<v Speaker 2>at the age of forty two. Can I interrupt so

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<v Speaker 2>briefly just a historical fact that has always fascinated me.

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<v Speaker 2>Is Martinique went back in fourth between the British British

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<v Speaker 2>friend and I know that it went from the British

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<v Speaker 2>to the French just four months before Josephine was born.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep. So there's a world where she was born and

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<v Speaker 1>she was British and she's off seducing. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>the Duke of Wealling, Lord Nelson, Duke of Wellington. Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>When she was three her house was entirely destroyed by

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<v Speaker 2>a hurricane, and rather than rebuilding, as her father who

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<v Speaker 2>was a chronic gambler, just kind of moved them into

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<v Speaker 2>the one non destroyed part of the house. She was

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<v Speaker 2>never properly educated, to be fair. She was also not.

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<v Speaker 1>Interested in books in any capacity.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she was left to run essentially wild on the plantation.

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<v Speaker 2>She mostly ate sugar, which designed her teeth entirely and

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<v Speaker 2>made her very overweight. And just for a little perspective again,

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<v Speaker 2>because I love the balance between these two women. When

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<v Speaker 2>Madame Pompadour told her family about the fortune teller's prophecy,

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<v Speaker 2>which she'd heard because she was on a girl's day

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<v Speaker 2>with her mom when she was getting their fortunes read,

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<v Speaker 2>her entire family was delighted and they started calling her Radat,

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<v Speaker 2>which means.

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<v Speaker 1>Our little queen. When Josephine told her family about the prophecy,

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<v Speaker 1>she was locked in a sack for eight days because

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<v Speaker 1>they accused her of consorting with a witch. Sure, so

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<v Speaker 1>Josephine is not growing up in the free, flourishing Enlightenment

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<v Speaker 1>era of France that some of her contemporaries were. And

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<v Speaker 1>because she now had rotted teeth and was very overweight

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<v Speaker 1>and her family was completely broke, she was not married

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<v Speaker 1>off to a plantation owner's son, and her marriage prospects

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<v Speaker 1>were looking very, very bad by the time she was fifteen,

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<v Speaker 1>But she had an aunt who had been a marquis

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<v Speaker 1>mistress for eighteen years, and the marquis was getting older

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<v Speaker 1>and he was worried about the long term security of

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<v Speaker 1>his mistress. And Josephine's aunt convinced the marquis and Mary

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<v Speaker 1>his son to Josephine. So Josephine goes off to marry

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<v Speaker 1>Alexandre de Beauharnay. He is seventeen. He already has a

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<v Speaker 1>twenty nine year old mistress. Her name is Madame DeLonge Prey.

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<v Speaker 1>Apparently she's very charming and witty. I've never read anything

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<v Speaker 1>about Madame Delongere that doesn't make her seem like a

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<v Speaker 1>bit but fine. He has a twenty nine year old mistress,

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<v Speaker 1>and he is horrified when Josephine gets off the boat.

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<v Speaker 1>He is deeply disappointed in her appearance. He's deeply disappointed

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<v Speaker 1>in her lack of education. He starts forcing her to

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<v Speaker 1>go out to literary salons, of where people immediately make

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<v Speaker 1>fun of her for being an idiot. Women say that

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<v Speaker 1>she looks like a little girl dressed up in her

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<v Speaker 1>mother's clothes, Joseph and Okay, to be fair, I don't

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<v Speaker 1>want this to be me. But the literary salons at

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<v Speaker 1>this particular time were mostly just discussing Dangerously Asons, which, look,

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<v Speaker 1>they were very specific book clubs. I love Dangerously Asons,

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<v Speaker 1>but it used four hundred pages of very horny letters

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<v Speaker 1>from imaginary aristocrats back and forth. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>If your only takeaway after reading Dangerously Asons was I

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<v Speaker 2>think it would be fun to have sex with the

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<v Speaker 2>vicant de Valmond. That would be a completely valid contribution,

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<v Speaker 2>and indeed all it should.

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<v Speaker 1>What if he's played by Ryan Phillipp exactly?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what if they made him wear a suit as

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<v Speaker 2>a high school student?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, of course, very sexy. I once saw this is

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<v Speaker 1>my fun fact. I once saw Dangerously aisms on Broadway

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<v Speaker 1>with leab Dreiber in that role, and it doesn't work.

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<v Speaker 1>I saw it too. He was not work. He looks

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<v Speaker 1>like a dock. I also thought Alan Rickman clips I

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<v Speaker 1>was still online if you ever want to look those.

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<v Speaker 1>My take on leib Dreiber was I was like, I

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<v Speaker 1>think he was going through a divorce at the time,

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<v Speaker 1>and I was like, is there a real wine in

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<v Speaker 1>the carross? Like he did not seem like engage. He's

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<v Speaker 1>a good actor, and it just was not workings and

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<v Speaker 1>seemed like he has the finesse of the velmonk. No,

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<v Speaker 1>he did not seem sneaky. Yeah it did not work. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>no he uh he seems he seems like a battle axe.

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<v Speaker 1>He doesn't seem like someone who enjoys the secrecy and

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<v Speaker 1>power game surroundings. Yeah. So that is my little Broadway

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<v Speaker 1>review corner. Please continue. So he's being mocked at this out,

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<v Speaker 1>he's being mocked at the salons and in she ends

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<v Speaker 1>up having two children by Alexandre and there is Look,

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<v Speaker 1>there is a part of me that loves the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that Medame Pompadour so thoroughly dominated the public imagination in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of what a sexy, desirable woman he is. Alexandri

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<v Speaker 1>responded to this by being like, I cannot possibly fuck

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<v Speaker 1>let alone love a woman who does not go to

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<v Speaker 1>book clubs. I mean that's great. It's like when you

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<v Speaker 1>know our culture or what is sexy is a cultural concert.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that like in the early two thousands, there's

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<v Speaker 1>that Girl's Gone wild, Paris held the thing and then

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<v Speaker 1>we got like the smartest sexy and I think that

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<v Speaker 1>it's interesting that that was still happening in the seventeen hundred.

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<v Speaker 1>It flactuates back and forth, and that is fascinating. Isn't

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<v Speaker 1>it fun that women have to shape our very identities

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<v Speaker 1>in order to be desirable.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, But Alexandre says that he can not possibly remain

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<v Speaker 2>at home with this object who has nothing to say

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<v Speaker 2>to him. So again, this is devastating for Josephine, and

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<v Speaker 2>he goes off with his mistress, Lord de Longpree, but

0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:39.240
<v Speaker 2>not before impregnating Josephine twice. Now when she is having

0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.760
<v Speaker 2>his second immediately after she has important is number one

0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.520
<v Speaker 2>nine gene yeah, Eugenie yep. Immediately after she had his

0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:51.640
<v Speaker 2>second child, alex decides to divorce her so he can

0:12:51.720 --> 0:12:55.840
<v Speaker 2>be with his mistress. In a truly insane response, he

0:12:55.880 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 2>accuses her of infidelity. He says that she is lower

0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:01.960
<v Speaker 2>than all the sluts.

0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:05.960
<v Speaker 1>On the earth. Josephine has been nothing but faithful this

0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.760
<v Speaker 1>entire career. Calling Josephine a slut, I'm sorry also for

0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.559
<v Speaker 1>using this lay. They say it explicitly in the movie

0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Napoleon Bade You Well. We'll come to that. Yeah, but

0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:21.640
<v Speaker 1>at this point, totally fine, At this point, very very fine, uh,

0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.360
<v Speaker 1>and again not to slut him, be a slud do whatever. Sure,

0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:30.480
<v Speaker 1>at this point she has been nothing but incredibly faithful

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:38.840
<v Speaker 1>to Alexandre. Josephine retires to a convent to wait out

0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.120
<v Speaker 1>the proceedings for legal separation. A lot of women did this,

0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.800
<v Speaker 1>getting back to dangerous liaisons. Madame Trouvelle retires to a

0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.640
<v Speaker 1>convent to escape the advances of the Vicon de velment.

0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.000
<v Speaker 1>And if you've if you're listening to Noble Blood, if

0:13:53.040 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 1>you've been listening to noble blood, Isabella or Isabella of Angoulem,

0:13:56.800 --> 0:13:59.640
<v Speaker 1>retires to a convent after her scandal. Exactly so.

0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.040
<v Speaker 2>Lots of stylish women are staying at this convent, and

0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 2>in an almost unheard of turn of events, the judge

0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:13.120
<v Speaker 2>actually sides with Josephine during the legal separation and he

0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:16.880
<v Speaker 2>agrees that Josephine has been wronged. He orders Alexandre to

0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:20.440
<v Speaker 2>take care of his children and to withdraw any accusations

0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:26.960
<v Speaker 2>towards Josephine. Alexandre does none of that, but fortunately the

0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:29.920
<v Speaker 2>other women at this convent had taken note upon themselves

0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.200
<v Speaker 2>to give Josephine a makeover, so they teach her how

0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.560
<v Speaker 2>to use makeup, which she will use a massive amount

0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.120
<v Speaker 2>of throughout the rest of her life. They also showed

0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:45.880
<v Speaker 2>her how to lose weight, mostly by not subsisting entirely

0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:50.760
<v Speaker 2>on candy. And the fashions were also changing. Marie Antoinette

0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 2>was going through her Tea trianon phase right now, so

0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:58.920
<v Speaker 2>instead of the huge pompadour roughly hyperfeminine gowns, people were

0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.600
<v Speaker 2>dressing in much more simple muslin gowns, and that suited

0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:05.200
<v Speaker 2>Josephine a lot better and she felt a lot more

0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.920
<v Speaker 2>comfortable in that. So after her time at the convent,

0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.360
<v Speaker 2>she went to Fontainebleau where the king had his hunt,

0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.840
<v Speaker 2>and she charmed the master of the hunt. He invited

0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:20.240
<v Speaker 2>her to come along hunting with the various aristocrats that

0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:25.480
<v Speaker 2>the king invited. She was able to find a protector

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.920
<v Speaker 2>very quickly. I think she had three of them. All

0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.400
<v Speaker 2>of them were about twenty years older than her. They

0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 2>were giving him a tremendous amount of jewels. She was

0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.200
<v Speaker 2>able to take care of her children, and I think

0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.240
<v Speaker 2>had things continued this way, she probably would have ended

0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:42.720
<v Speaker 2>up like her aunt, being a permanent mistress to one

0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:47.240
<v Speaker 2>of these men. Except a revolution happens in seventeen eighty nine,

0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>the revolution promising equality for the common people comes and

0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Alexandra for wanting his miserable, fucking life is a little

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 2>bit useful for Josephine.

0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 1>He was a noble, but he was also so a

0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:02.160
<v Speaker 1>staunt anti royalist.

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.360
<v Speaker 2>He was a vicante. This is stupid. He shouldn't have

0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.480
<v Speaker 2>done this. But he became a key member of the

0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:13.840
<v Speaker 2>National Assembly, representing a group of nobles that believe that

0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:15.480
<v Speaker 2>the monarchy should be a ball And of.

0:16:15.400 --> 0:16:18.480
<v Speaker 1>Course this ended really famously well and he worked out

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.400
<v Speaker 1>great for him. But when the royal family attempted to

0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.960
<v Speaker 1>flee the country, it was Alexandre who dispatched the writers

0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.960
<v Speaker 1>to bring him back and a National Assembly that everybody

0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.600
<v Speaker 1>had to wait until the royal family returned. But they

0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:33.640
<v Speaker 1>couldn't get away from this.

0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:37.600
<v Speaker 2>He emerged very briefly as a hero to Paris, and

0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:43.200
<v Speaker 2>Josephine is suddenly very much in style. She's being invited everywhere.

0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.640
<v Speaker 1>She is seen very.

0:16:45.480 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 2>Briefly as being a hero of the revolution. Unfortunately, the

0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:53.080
<v Speaker 2>promise of democracy did not change France's situation at all.

0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.880
<v Speaker 2>The people who were starving before are still starving, and

0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.960
<v Speaker 2>by seventeen ninety three, the Reign of Terror, led by

0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:05.360
<v Speaker 2>robes Bay had begun, and it was carried out with

0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:09.439
<v Speaker 2>the intent of eliminating anyone deemed parasitic on the state,

0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.320
<v Speaker 2>and of course that includes all royals and all members

0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:14.240
<v Speaker 2>of the Catholic Church.

0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh and Josephine's husband gets the Jophine's husband is guillotine very,

0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:23.280
<v Speaker 1>very quickly. It's so fascinating.

0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:25.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to dwell too much on the Reign

0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.399
<v Speaker 2>of Terror, but a reign of terror is fascinating to me.

0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:36.680
<v Speaker 2>The executions were based on everything. The one that fascinates

0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.160
<v Speaker 2>me is that some executions happened because people had old

0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:44.880
<v Speaker 2>playing cards and it was seen as showing sympathy towards kings.

0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:50.240
<v Speaker 3>And sure, if you're playing cards, what you think. One

0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.800
<v Speaker 3>of the other special horrors with the revolution that always

0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:57.399
<v Speaker 3>sticks in my mind, special starring special horrors horrors of

0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.160
<v Speaker 3>the Reign of Terror, is that a lot of aristocrats

0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.920
<v Speaker 3>had dogs. Uh so their dogs went wild after they

0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.960
<v Speaker 3>were dragged to the guillotine, and it meant that rabbit

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.080
<v Speaker 3>packs of dogs were roaming the street drinking blood out

0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.880
<v Speaker 3>of the gutters. So the army had to be dispatched

0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:17.520
<v Speaker 3>to start shooting the dogs.

0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.800
<v Speaker 1>That's also another I mean, it feels like those stories

0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.879
<v Speaker 1>are reappearing because a few hundred years earlier, we're going

0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.240
<v Speaker 1>to get a dog with the beheading of Mary, Queen

0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 1>of Scones. Famously, when before she went to get beheaded,

0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.359
<v Speaker 1>she hit her dog in her skirts, so they came out.

0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:35.919
<v Speaker 2>The one that it makes me think of is the

0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.040
<v Speaker 2>Rwandan genocide, for the government again had to be dispatched

0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:44.240
<v Speaker 2>because dogs and so many people were murdered that their

0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.639
<v Speaker 2>dogs just ran wild on the street. A lot of

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:51.040
<v Speaker 2>them went ravid. This isn't a theory, but I think

0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:53.679
<v Speaker 2>this feels self evident. But I think if you have

0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.200
<v Speaker 2>to dispatch the army to kill all the rabid dogs

0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.400
<v Speaker 2>roaming your streets, your revolution had failed. You are going

0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:04.439
<v Speaker 2>to be remembered very poorly by his stitch.

0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:07.040
<v Speaker 1>True, So we need to fast forward just a little bit,

0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:09.000
<v Speaker 1>and Josephine is in prison.

0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Josephine's in prison. Josephine is at Las Comes. It's one

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:14.640
<v Speaker 2>of the most horrifying prisons in Paris.

0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:16.320
<v Speaker 1>But good news.

0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.919
<v Speaker 2>Her roommate in her cellmate, I guess in the prison

0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.480
<v Speaker 2>is Teresa Cabarets. She is the mistress to the revolutionary

0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:31.800
<v Speaker 2>John Tallienne. Now, Theresa is pretty angry that her boyfriend

0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.560
<v Speaker 2>Protector whatever, is in close coats with robes Bier and

0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.320
<v Speaker 2>yet she's imprisoned. So she sends Talian a dagger and

0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.840
<v Speaker 2>a letter demanding that he kill robes Ba and free

0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:44.439
<v Speaker 2>her immediately. And if he doesn't do this, he's not

0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.000
<v Speaker 2>a man. And she feels personal shamed that she ever

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:53.119
<v Speaker 2>slept with us, and Italian actually does this, which is

0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:53.960
<v Speaker 2>amazing to me.

0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:56.640
<v Speaker 1>He's like, okay, ropes here has to go for all

0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.840
<v Speaker 1>the reasons, but also for this, no very much, specifically

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.080
<v Speaker 1>for this and only for this. So when Robesby is

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.560
<v Speaker 1>giving a speech at the convention, Talian storms the stage,

0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.760
<v Speaker 1>waving the dagger Teresa's sent him and shouting down with

0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:14.240
<v Speaker 1>this dictator. His co conspirator, pauled de Barras joins him

0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.639
<v Speaker 1>and Robesby a flees. He tries to suit himself, but

0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:20.680
<v Speaker 1>he only succeeds in shattering his job before being dragged

0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.400
<v Speaker 1>to the guillotine. Italian and Barrass emerged from this as heroes.

0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.960
<v Speaker 1>Barrass became the head of the new Directorate government. He's

0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:31.720
<v Speaker 1>also one of the only remaining super wealthy men in Paris,

0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:37.640
<v Speaker 1>and Josephine emerged from prison at Teresa's behest. Teresa, who

0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.160
<v Speaker 1>has become a hero to the Parisians, has not forgot

0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:45.200
<v Speaker 1>her friend. But Josephine emerges to find Paris and ruins.

0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.040
<v Speaker 1>Most of the homes have been lit a blaze. But

0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:52.040
<v Speaker 1>she's popular again. Yeah, and this is about when she'll

0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:55.240
<v Speaker 1>meet Napoleon at a part almost Yes, okay, we're coming

0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.440
<v Speaker 1>to that. The Baron de Frindley wrote at this time

0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.440
<v Speaker 1>that after the reign of her it was in height

0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:05.879
<v Speaker 1>of good manners to be ruined, to have been suspected, persecuted.

0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:08.760
<v Speaker 2>And above all imprisoned. People started wearing their hair crop

0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:10.600
<v Speaker 2>to immitate prison styles.

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.639
<v Speaker 1>Victim for loved dem Yes, my French pronunciation is not

0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 1>as good as your. It's ribbons around their necks and

0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:22.800
<v Speaker 1>not to the guillotine. Josephine's welcome at the extremely exclusive

0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.960
<v Speaker 1>Balde Victim where I believe that Balde Victim actually happened

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.040
<v Speaker 1>all the time. Yes, absolutely, okay, Yeah.

0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:33.359
<v Speaker 2>There were basically like support groups for people who had

0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:36.680
<v Speaker 2>been imprisoned. There were special salons.

0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:37.880
<v Speaker 1>For people who had been in I've just been from

0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:41.400
<v Speaker 1>a purely historical standpoint, It was whether whether the actual

0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.720
<v Speaker 1>like the main bald of victim was a actually happened

0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:48.600
<v Speaker 1>or was like a Romantic invention. I mean, I don't know,

0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:52.639
<v Speaker 1>you need to really say. My guess and my speculation

0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:54.840
<v Speaker 1>is it's like a combination. Like I think people were

0:21:54.880 --> 0:21:58.359
<v Speaker 1>having these parties and then I think in the Romantic

0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:00.879
<v Speaker 1>era people were like build up their ideas.

0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:06.639
<v Speaker 4>Oh nice, only yeah, the speaking of parties, Josephine was

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.640
<v Speaker 4>spending an astronomical amound. She was one of the only

0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.680
<v Speaker 4>women in the city with a carriage at a time

0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.959
<v Speaker 4>when bread was so scarce that wealthy people brought their

0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.480
<v Speaker 4>own food to every dinner party because you couldn't expect

0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.720
<v Speaker 4>other people to have food. Josephine was also deeply in debt.

0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.440
<v Speaker 4>She's being constantly perceived.

0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:28.040
<v Speaker 1>She's spending out her money on carriages. She's an insane expense.

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.280
<v Speaker 1>She's in desperate need of he protector who will cover

0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:35.800
<v Speaker 1>her expensive Fortunately, she'd remained very close with Teresa, who's

0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:41.160
<v Speaker 1>universally beloved in Paris, and she's now married to Italian

0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:46.480
<v Speaker 1>and posting some truly extravagant orgies. So Josephine becomes one

0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:50.359
<v Speaker 1>of the Marviliuses of this period. She appears around town,

0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:55.440
<v Speaker 1>cladd in only see through Greek style gowns and sandals.

0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:58.360
<v Speaker 1>Some of the Marviliuses walked through the streets with their

0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:02.399
<v Speaker 1>breasts exposed. Most of them soaked their gowns in water

0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:04.720
<v Speaker 1>so they would clan to their bodies before going out.

0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:08.640
<v Speaker 1>And around this time, Teresa introduces her to Paulton Barross.

0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:11.639
<v Speaker 1>Paul's now the president of the National Assembly. He's the

0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:14.080
<v Speaker 1>richest man in Paris. He's able to pay off the

0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:16.240
<v Speaker 1>many many.

0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:19.600
<v Speaker 2>People pursuing Josephine for money, and he asks only that

0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:25.399
<v Speaker 2>she'll arrange orgies for him. She does in very extravagant style. Apparently,

0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.600
<v Speaker 2>at these orgies, women dip their breasts in champagne glasses.

0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:32.120
<v Speaker 2>They stripped naked and pretended to be jungle cats. They

0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:35.199
<v Speaker 2>took off their dresses and wagered on who were the least.

0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.720
<v Speaker 2>Josephine sat on Deboras's lap the entire time so he

0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:40.199
<v Speaker 2>could bondle and have sex with her.

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:44.560
<v Speaker 1>Throughout. Everything's going great, She's enjoying life.

0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:47.600
<v Speaker 2>And it was around this time that a twenty two

0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:52.960
<v Speaker 2>year old Corsican general appears and it's Napoleon Bonaparte. He

0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:58.960
<v Speaker 2>is absolutely agg at the women in Paris. He writes

0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:02.240
<v Speaker 2>to her brother, here alone, they deserve to rule. All

0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:04.160
<v Speaker 2>the men are mad for them. They think of nothing

0:24:04.200 --> 0:24:06.880
<v Speaker 2>but them. They live only for them. A woman needs

0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:08.800
<v Speaker 2>to live in Paris for six months to know what

0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:11.800
<v Speaker 2>her do is. He has big virgin energy, he has

0:24:11.840 --> 0:24:15.280
<v Speaker 2>big virtin He's very very much a virgin. Women also

0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:19.160
<v Speaker 2>don't like him. He is a very brilliant military strategist.

0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:23.800
<v Speaker 2>He is very uncomfortable to talk to. His technique with

0:24:23.960 --> 0:24:27.560
<v Speaker 2>women was to stare at them for many, many minutes

0:24:27.600 --> 0:24:30.760
<v Speaker 2>on and did not say anything. Most women found this

0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:35.320
<v Speaker 2>very creepy. Sure, but Napoleon was one of Deborasa's proteges.

0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:39.280
<v Speaker 2>So he seats him next to Josephine at a seemingly

0:24:39.600 --> 0:24:41.520
<v Speaker 2>non orgy related dinner.

0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:44.400
<v Speaker 1>Sure, that's what they say. And whenever it tender, it's like, oh,

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:46.480
<v Speaker 1>how do you meet, and it's like they met on tender,

0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:49.439
<v Speaker 1>but it's like, oh we met dad friend party, and

0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:51.159
<v Speaker 1>so it's like it was a non orgy party.

0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:53.640
<v Speaker 2>I think this one was a non ergy party because

0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:56.040
<v Speaker 2>I think Napoleon would have been very frightened.

0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but it's funny to imagine them trying to whitewash

0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 1>how he met story. Yeah, and Josephine was nice to him.

0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.800
<v Speaker 1>He says that she's the first woman in Paris who

0:25:06.920 --> 0:25:09.720
<v Speaker 1>has been nice to him a lot. She just talked

0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:13.199
<v Speaker 1>to him about how she saw his military strategy, was

0:25:13.200 --> 0:25:16.399
<v Speaker 1>smart the entire time, and touched his arm. Oh, kid's

0:25:16.440 --> 0:25:19.480
<v Speaker 1>interesting that in the movie they make her seem like

0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.879
<v Speaker 1>an elusive creature of mystery, and it's not that she

0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:25.960
<v Speaker 1>was just a very pretty lady who was being nice

0:25:26.000 --> 0:25:30.399
<v Speaker 1>to him at dinner, and Napoleon was in love. He

0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:36.679
<v Speaker 1>proposes very soon after, and Josephine, to everyone's surprise. I

0:25:36.680 --> 0:25:40.480
<v Speaker 1>think they were married six months after meeting yep. And

0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.840
<v Speaker 1>people kept wondering why she was marrying this man who

0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:47.960
<v Speaker 1>was commonly accepted to be a fool, especially because, by

0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Josephine's own admission, she.

0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:53.199
<v Speaker 2>Had only lukewarm feelings towards him. For Us said that

0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:56.119
<v Speaker 2>she was motivated entirely by money, and she would be

0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.000
<v Speaker 2>had her own lover if she could drink gold out

0:25:58.040 --> 0:26:02.800
<v Speaker 2>of his skull. But Bross was pretty mad about this,

0:26:03.080 --> 0:26:06.880
<v Speaker 2>and Napoleon had so much less money than any other man.

0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.800
<v Speaker 2>She knew he made fifteen thousand francs a year, and

0:26:09.800 --> 0:26:12.280
<v Speaker 2>that's what she was spending on makeup at this point.

0:26:13.359 --> 0:26:17.080
<v Speaker 2>And I think, you know, a slightly more pragmatic explanation

0:26:17.280 --> 0:26:19.959
<v Speaker 2>is that Josephine is thirty one by this point, Bros

0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:24.159
<v Speaker 2>is very unlikely to marry her. She probably is thinking

0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:29.199
<v Speaker 2>about her future in a somewhat strategic way. If Napoleon

0:26:29.359 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 2>isn't successful now, he seems like he's on the verge

0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:36.240
<v Speaker 2>of becoming very successful. But I think the most charitable

0:26:36.280 --> 0:26:40.800
<v Speaker 2>explanation is just that he's a very awkward little foreigner

0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:45.520
<v Speaker 2>over awed by Paris, who everybody thinks is awkward and dumb.

0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:49.000
<v Speaker 2>And I think he probably reminded her of a younger

0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:52.080
<v Speaker 2>version of herself in a way that she felt very

0:26:52.119 --> 0:26:55.760
<v Speaker 2>tenderly towards. I'll also say there's something very charming. I

0:26:55.760 --> 0:26:57.920
<v Speaker 2>think Napoleon is a very smart man.

0:26:58.119 --> 0:26:59.760
<v Speaker 1>I think we can say that I think he's a

0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:02.680
<v Speaker 1>bri militia early, you know. In turn ways, I think

0:27:02.720 --> 0:27:06.639
<v Speaker 1>that she probably found his intelligence attractive, But would I

0:27:06.680 --> 0:27:10.399
<v Speaker 1>also find very attractive is someone who like openly, really

0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:14.000
<v Speaker 1>likes you, boss, really look, but she wasn't gonna marry him.

0:27:14.000 --> 0:27:15.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying, like she was a guy who's like, I

0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:17.439
<v Speaker 1>love you, I want to marry you, and I'd be like,

0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:19.080
<v Speaker 1>all right, let's get on with it.

0:27:19.320 --> 0:27:19.520
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:23.840
<v Speaker 2>I think that's interesting. But certainly after their marriage, he

0:27:23.880 --> 0:27:26.240
<v Speaker 2>goes off to Italy. He writes her a constant stream

0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:26.840
<v Speaker 2>of letters.

0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:30.359
<v Speaker 1>This is if you are a noble blood listener, listen

0:27:30.440 --> 0:27:33.080
<v Speaker 1>to our episode on the Black Count Tom Alexander Duma,

0:27:33.320 --> 0:27:35.320
<v Speaker 1>and that'll be like a good companion to this, because

0:27:35.320 --> 0:27:37.920
<v Speaker 1>you're like, what was Napoleon off doing in Italy and Egypt?

0:27:38.359 --> 0:27:42.520
<v Speaker 1>That episode will be the context. And meanwhile he's over

0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:44.560
<v Speaker 1>there Josephine Josephine.

0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:47.480
<v Speaker 2>One of his letters says that if Josephine ever takes

0:27:47.480 --> 0:27:52.639
<v Speaker 2>a lover, he will enact Othello style revenge, murdering her

0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:55.760
<v Speaker 2>and her lover and himself. This is all of the letters.

0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:57.080
<v Speaker 2>This is how they all read.

0:27:57.640 --> 0:27:59.520
<v Speaker 1>He keeps writing things. I feel like I've read these

0:27:59.600 --> 0:28:02.120
<v Speaker 1>letters and he's like, if you loved me, you'd write

0:28:02.119 --> 0:28:02.719
<v Speaker 1>me twice a day.

0:28:02.800 --> 0:28:05.639
<v Speaker 2>Hey, good women would be I don't think constantly. I

0:28:06.320 --> 0:28:09.720
<v Speaker 2>find I don't care for Napoleon's letters. I know that

0:28:09.760 --> 0:28:11.679
<v Speaker 2>I see I know that they go for millions and

0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.439
<v Speaker 2>millions of dollars at auction. But what bothers me the

0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:18.560
<v Speaker 2>most about them is that there is no teasing, there's

0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:21.920
<v Speaker 2>no warmth of familiarity, there's no friendship in those letters.

0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Napoleon was an aspiring romantic novelist. When he came to parent,

0:28:25.720 --> 0:28:28.119
<v Speaker 2>he was trying to write a romantic novel. And I

0:28:28.160 --> 0:28:31.520
<v Speaker 2>think in all of his letters, Josephine could be replaced

0:28:31.520 --> 0:28:35.160
<v Speaker 2>by a sexy automaton and the letters would read exactly.

0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not very personal.

0:28:36.240 --> 0:28:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think if you've paid attention to someone's sandwich

0:28:40.040 --> 0:28:44.920
<v Speaker 2>preferences and send them a link to a sandwich shop,

0:28:45.000 --> 0:28:47.760
<v Speaker 2>you think they'd enjoy it would be more romantic than

0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:49.200
<v Speaker 2>anything Napoleon wrote.

0:28:49.240 --> 0:28:51.880
<v Speaker 1>Josephine seems like he's just very I mean, he's very

0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:55.080
<v Speaker 1>excited about being in love and desperate for I mean,

0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:57.600
<v Speaker 1>not to extend the metaphor of conquering, but like to

0:28:57.800 --> 0:29:01.760
<v Speaker 1>own and possess. That's this woman. Yes, I have a wife.

0:29:01.960 --> 0:29:04.520
<v Speaker 1>I love her, she loves me. I have her. That

0:29:04.680 --> 0:29:05.040
<v Speaker 1>is set.

0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:05.360
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:09.200
<v Speaker 2>Yes, Josephine says that he does not love her, he

0:29:09.240 --> 0:29:12.520
<v Speaker 2>worships her. Yeah, And I think that does get at

0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:13.960
<v Speaker 2>some of the difference there.

0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:16.840
<v Speaker 1>Now Josephine, while he is away, has taken a lover

0:29:17.040 --> 0:29:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Ippoly Charles. Oh, yeah, he.

0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:22.240
<v Speaker 2>Was twenty three. He was very, very handsome. He fit

0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:26.080
<v Speaker 2>in very well with Josephine's Paris friends. Barros said he

0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:29.240
<v Speaker 2>looked like a wigman cruise dummy. Ross is my favorite

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:33.880
<v Speaker 2>person in this entire story, Nabole and meanwhile was in despair.

0:29:33.640 --> 0:29:34.000
<v Speaker 1>He writes.

0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Barasaid, if Josephine didn't join him in Italy, she was

0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:38.120
<v Speaker 2>going to kill himself.

0:29:38.400 --> 0:29:42.280
<v Speaker 1>And Josephine's like, no, thanks, I'm not this time. You're correct. Uh.

0:29:42.520 --> 0:29:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Barross needed Napoleon to win battles in Italy because France

0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.760
<v Speaker 2>needs to re establish itself as a country with some

0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:55.880
<v Speaker 2>kind of military power. So Barross tells Josephine that he

0:29:56.000 --> 0:29:59.959
<v Speaker 2>is throwing a very elaborate dinner for her. He doesn't

0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>she'd throw this dinner apparrellin It's very nice. And afterwards

0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:07.000
<v Speaker 2>he picks her up, bundles her into a carriage, and

0:30:07.080 --> 0:30:10.240
<v Speaker 2>tells her she has to go to Italy. Now. I

0:30:10.280 --> 0:30:13.560
<v Speaker 2>don't know how to explain their relationship at this point,

0:30:13.640 --> 0:30:15.920
<v Speaker 2>except they seem to be best friends who hate each other.

0:30:17.520 --> 0:30:20.120
<v Speaker 2>The compromise is that they agree that she can bring

0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:27.600
<v Speaker 2>it Charles along with her to Italy. So off Josephine

0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:31.760
<v Speaker 2>goes to Italy. She seems to somewhat enjoy her time

0:30:31.760 --> 0:30:34.560
<v Speaker 2>in Italy, but before long Napoleon has to head on

0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:43.160
<v Speaker 2>to Egypt, and he continues the sending letters to Josephine constantly. Meanwhile,

0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Josephine goes off to take the waters for her health.

0:30:46.240 --> 0:30:48.400
<v Speaker 2>She writes to Brass telling him that she hopes he

0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:50.960
<v Speaker 2>gets really, really really sick so he can join her.

0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:56.640
<v Speaker 2>I love their relationship. And in Egypt, Napoleon is talking

0:30:56.640 --> 0:30:59.880
<v Speaker 2>about his wife so constantly that his soldiers say that

0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:03.440
<v Speaker 2>virgies on idolatry. He is aimed to Camp, who was

0:31:03.480 --> 0:31:06.720
<v Speaker 2>having an affair with Josephine's maid, finally tells him that

0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:10.720
<v Speaker 2>Josephine is having an affair. Napoleon is devastated. He writes

0:31:10.760 --> 0:31:13.120
<v Speaker 2>his brother that he's going to get a divorce. The

0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:17.360
<v Speaker 2>ship carrying his letter is seized and it gets reprinted

0:31:17.440 --> 0:31:20.440
<v Speaker 2>and distributed in all the British papers. Oh that's oh,

0:31:20.640 --> 0:31:23.560
<v Speaker 2>British people are so excited, they're so happy. This is

0:31:23.600 --> 0:31:26.680
<v Speaker 2>a great day for them. Debt collectors assume that Josephine

0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:29.840
<v Speaker 2>will be divorced imminently, and they sit on her Deborahs

0:31:30.080 --> 0:31:33.600
<v Speaker 2>stops French papers from printing this article. He fights off

0:31:33.640 --> 0:31:36.120
<v Speaker 2>all her debt collectors and he gets her the money

0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:38.800
<v Speaker 2>to buy a house called Malmaison, where he tells her

0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:42.160
<v Speaker 2>to wait this out, and locals report that they often

0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.520
<v Speaker 2>see her walking. Was a handsome young man who must

0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:45.160
<v Speaker 2>be her son.

0:31:45.640 --> 0:31:49.600
<v Speaker 1>Uh huh, it's itpoly, It's always her lover. Yeah, yeah uh.

0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:52.840
<v Speaker 2>Napoleon decided to even the score by having an affair

0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:56.200
<v Speaker 2>with a young soldier's wife named Pauline, who had accompanied

0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.560
<v Speaker 2>her husband to Egypt. He had no idea how to

0:31:58.560 --> 0:32:02.200
<v Speaker 2>initiate this affair because he was the least terming personal life,

0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:04.920
<v Speaker 2>so he just did his thing where he stared at

0:32:04.960 --> 0:32:08.000
<v Speaker 2>her for the entire hot air balloon launch they were attending.

0:32:08.960 --> 0:32:11.280
<v Speaker 1>Pauline said, and she's like, look at that hot air balloon,

0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:12.320
<v Speaker 1>it's coming up that way.

0:32:12.800 --> 0:32:18.040
<v Speaker 2>Bauleen said that this made her intensely uncomfortable. Then Napoleon

0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:21.360
<v Speaker 2>sent an eight of his to describe that he wanted

0:32:21.400 --> 0:32:24.120
<v Speaker 2>to have sex with her. She said no and that

0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:28.080
<v Speaker 2>she was married, and this made her again very uncomfortable.

0:32:28.520 --> 0:32:31.440
<v Speaker 2>Then he sent her a diamond bracelet, and she relented immediately.

0:32:31.520 --> 0:32:34.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, It's like okay, enough is enough? So I

0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:37.640
<v Speaker 1>so spassed. Forwarding a little bit, Why does Napoleon ultimately

0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:38.840
<v Speaker 1>forgive Josephine.

0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:45.320
<v Speaker 2>So Napoleon returns to Paris. Josephine has been waiting for him.

0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately she's at another house. When he returns, Napoleon ands devastated,

0:32:50.000 --> 0:32:53.880
<v Speaker 2>finally finds her at the house she's at. She's sobbing hysterically,

0:32:53.920 --> 0:32:57.160
<v Speaker 2>and she sends her two children to go bang on

0:32:57.240 --> 0:33:00.720
<v Speaker 2>his door, and she has coached them to say, our

0:33:00.800 --> 0:33:04.520
<v Speaker 2>father is already did whilst we lose our second thought.

0:33:06.280 --> 0:33:09.920
<v Speaker 2>So she has her two sobbing children doing this. Then

0:33:10.200 --> 0:33:13.640
<v Speaker 2>she goes in. She has sex with Napoleon. The next morning,

0:33:13.680 --> 0:33:16.320
<v Speaker 2>he announces he's not going to get a divorce. It's

0:33:16.360 --> 0:33:19.280
<v Speaker 2>going to be fine. But Napoleon does continue to have

0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:22.320
<v Speaker 2>affairs throughout the rest of its marriage. He never again

0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:27.760
<v Speaker 2>indulges in the kind of single minded worship of Josephine.

0:33:27.760 --> 0:33:30.560
<v Speaker 1>I'll have an illegitimate child. He will have an illegitimate

0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:34.720
<v Speaker 1>child later. Now, shortly after this, if we jump ahead

0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:39.680
<v Speaker 1>a little bed, Napoleon stages Acuda over from the thro

0:33:39.800 --> 0:33:43.960
<v Speaker 1>the dar spoiler alert, Napoleon becomes emperor, crowns himself, bowns.

0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Josephine, Bross gets excelled to Brussels. He continues to write

0:33:47.960 --> 0:33:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Josephine constantly. Josephine never writes him back again. Nic What

0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:54.560
<v Speaker 2>did he ever do other than end the reign of

0:33:54.640 --> 0:33:57.360
<v Speaker 2>terror and try to have a democracy. Well, you can't

0:33:57.480 --> 0:34:00.800
<v Speaker 2>have orgies and bail Josephine out of every problem.

0:34:00.960 --> 0:34:02.760
<v Speaker 1>See for him. You can't be one of the main

0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:05.760
<v Speaker 1>guys when there's a new emperor. You got it, you know,

0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:09.520
<v Speaker 1>all right, dark lens one, the one truly lovely man

0:34:09.600 --> 0:34:12.719
<v Speaker 1>in this story. So Josephine and Napoleon moving to the

0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:16.000
<v Speaker 1>decrepit to Luis's palace. On the gates of that palace

0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:18.840
<v Speaker 1>hung a sign from the revolution that read, on the

0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:22.239
<v Speaker 1>tenth of August seventeen ninety two, royalty was abolished in

0:34:22.320 --> 0:34:25.960
<v Speaker 1>France and will never return. The first thing Napoleon did

0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:30.319
<v Speaker 1>was scrub away all revolutionary side. He said he did

0:34:30.400 --> 0:34:34.440
<v Speaker 1>not like to see that shit around, and he began

0:34:34.600 --> 0:34:38.719
<v Speaker 1>referring to Louis the sixteenth as the good Louis the sixteenth. Well,

0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:40.520
<v Speaker 1>I do think, I mean not to step on this

0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:43.080
<v Speaker 1>and to agree. I think that part of Napoleon's that

0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:47.360
<v Speaker 1>claim to power was re establishing the old, the bad Revolution,

0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:50.279
<v Speaker 1>the good power of France. And I mean, if you

0:34:50.320 --> 0:34:52.719
<v Speaker 1>think back, if you as a listener are sort of

0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:58.600
<v Speaker 1>imagining the imagery and architecture and fashion and furnish furnishings

0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:01.600
<v Speaker 1>that we associate with Napoleon, and it's very gilded, it's

0:35:01.719 --> 0:35:04.640
<v Speaker 1>very regal. It's like red velvet and it als.

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.600
<v Speaker 2>At one point Josephine had a dress that was covered

0:35:07.760 --> 0:35:09.200
<v Speaker 2>entirely with real rose petals.

0:35:09.560 --> 0:35:12.080
<v Speaker 1>I she had a dress that was made entirely of

0:35:12.200 --> 0:35:13.000
<v Speaker 1>peacock feathers.

0:35:13.920 --> 0:35:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Josephine also bought nine hundred dresses a year, five times

0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:19.719
<v Speaker 2>more than Marie Antoinette ever bought.

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:22.279
<v Speaker 1>I read a thing that she never wore the same

0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:26.000
<v Speaker 1>pair of stockings twice. Well, that's smart, I mean, they

0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:31.239
<v Speaker 1>really that makes sense. But also in her defense, I

0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>think Napoleon maybe she went a little far, but I

0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:36.400
<v Speaker 1>think he was very much advocating for like, we have

0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:39.480
<v Speaker 1>to play this part. We took power by force, so

0:35:39.560 --> 0:35:41.200
<v Speaker 1>we have to present power.

0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:44.239
<v Speaker 2>They brought back people to talk about how everything used

0:35:44.280 --> 0:35:46.480
<v Speaker 2>to be done at the court so they could try

0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:49.520
<v Speaker 2>to mimic it. Now, Josephine was never comfortable was this.

0:35:49.760 --> 0:35:52.760
<v Speaker 2>She was sleeping in Marie Antoinette's chambers and she claimed

0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:55.000
<v Speaker 2>that she could hear the Queen's ghost asking her what

0:35:55.120 --> 0:35:56.200
<v Speaker 2>she was doing in her bed.

0:35:57.000 --> 0:35:57.600
<v Speaker 1>So creepy.

0:35:57.640 --> 0:35:58.040
<v Speaker 3>I love it.

0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:01.239
<v Speaker 1>Also, around this time, Napoleon declared that French women needed

0:36:01.320 --> 0:36:05.520
<v Speaker 1>to learn obedience, so he rolled back women's rights enormously.

0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:09.120
<v Speaker 1>Husbands could now imprison their wise for infidelity. Also, and

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.520
<v Speaker 1>unrelated to the sexism aspect of this, I just want

0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:15.560
<v Speaker 1>to remind people that Napoleon and France is the only

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:18.759
<v Speaker 1>country in history to ever reinstates like great yep.

0:36:19.400 --> 0:36:22.279
<v Speaker 2>People thought it was because of Josephine's influence, because she

0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:26.080
<v Speaker 2>grew up on a plantation and she sure was comfortable.

0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:28.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean I also think it was partly because Napoleon.

0:36:28.520 --> 0:36:30.239
<v Speaker 1>I mean, they just needed like them. I don't think

0:36:30.239 --> 0:36:33.320
<v Speaker 1>he cared about the revolutionary ideals. I think he was

0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:37.920
<v Speaker 1>driven by like cold economic prospects, absolute lust for power,

0:36:38.080 --> 0:36:40.719
<v Speaker 1>power and money. Yeah, so that's not good. Yeah.

0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Madame de Stelle, who adored Napoleon at the beginning of

0:36:44.760 --> 0:36:48.200
<v Speaker 2>his reign, and wrote in letters saying that she should

0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:52.839
<v Speaker 2>be his mistress rather than this insignificant woman Josephine, which

0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Napoleon was very uninterested and he despised intellectual women.

0:36:57.760 --> 0:36:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Really. Oh yes, yeah uh.

0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:02.879
<v Speaker 2>Her move with men was to ask them who their

0:37:02.960 --> 0:37:06.000
<v Speaker 2>favorite woman in history was, so I have a lively

0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:07.200
<v Speaker 2>conversation with them.

0:37:07.400 --> 0:37:09.960
<v Speaker 1>My favorite Madame de Stele quote that I feel like

0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:12.400
<v Speaker 1>I come back to a lot is and I'm paraphrasing,

0:37:12.480 --> 0:37:15.600
<v Speaker 1>but the one must in life choose between boredom and suffering.

0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:19.840
<v Speaker 1>That's very depressed, I know. And as to adult what

0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:23.080
<v Speaker 1>am I called it? Contentment? Contentment is better than boredon.

0:37:23.680 --> 0:37:26.040
<v Speaker 1>But isn't that just like very insightful?

0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:26.480
<v Speaker 3>Yes?

0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:30.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she was a very insightful woman who when she

0:37:30.239 --> 0:37:33.800
<v Speaker 1>asked Napoleon that had human reply, whichever woman bore the

0:37:33.840 --> 0:37:37.799
<v Speaker 1>most children? Madame de still you shortly after this going

0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:41.280
<v Speaker 1>up to flee the country. The censorship put that heads

0:37:41.360 --> 0:37:45.160
<v Speaker 1>so horrified. But Pompadour is back in full force. The

0:37:45.280 --> 0:37:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Marquis de Sade is imprisoned shortly after the publishing of

0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:52.520
<v Speaker 1>juliet which we have an episode on you doing an

0:37:52.520 --> 0:37:55.719
<v Speaker 1>episode on Juliette. No, you're doing Justine Angeliat. We've done

0:37:55.920 --> 0:37:58.880
<v Speaker 1>the Marquis de Sade, so if you are a listener,

0:37:58.960 --> 0:38:01.200
<v Speaker 1>you know all about the Marquis Decoud's imprisonment and his

0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:06.319
<v Speaker 1>long suffering wife got his poor wife. You read much?

0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:09.200
<v Speaker 1>Merchi De said, not on purpose. I read some for

0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:11.520
<v Speaker 1>that episode and I was I literally, I think I

0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:13.520
<v Speaker 1>said in the episode. I was like, I'm not quoting

0:38:13.560 --> 0:38:16.279
<v Speaker 1>any of this. I'm not recommending it. I don't find

0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:18.480
<v Speaker 1>it pleasant. I think it's like a the equivalent of

0:38:18.600 --> 0:38:21.680
<v Speaker 1>like a shock comic. It's a shot comic. I actually

0:38:22.280 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 1>loved Juliet as a proto feminist piece about who comes

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:32.040
<v Speaker 1>out on top. But it's pornography. It's nothing I would

0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:34.600
<v Speaker 1>recommend any any esteemed listeners of this show.

0:38:35.640 --> 0:38:39.440
<v Speaker 2>But this is basically the end of female intellectuals in France,

0:38:40.040 --> 0:38:44.759
<v Speaker 2>where Louis the fifteenth had consulted with Madame Pompadour all

0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:49.560
<v Speaker 2>through the seven years, or what Napoleon liked was for

0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Josephine to sit in front of him in total silence

0:38:52.920 --> 0:38:54.960
<v Speaker 2>while he thought about military matters.

0:38:55.280 --> 0:38:56.760
<v Speaker 1>She was a gilded statue.

0:38:56.840 --> 0:39:01.480
<v Speaker 2>She was a beautiful statue for him, and at the coronation,

0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Napoleon obviously oh, the Catholic Church is back too. Oh yeah,

0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:09.759
<v Speaker 2>we've rolled back everything the Revolution tried to accomplish. So

0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:13.800
<v Speaker 2>the Pope is there for Napoleon's coronation. But Napoleon crowns himself,

0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:19.480
<v Speaker 2>we assume all listeners know, and he also crowns Josephine.

0:39:19.960 --> 0:39:23.320
<v Speaker 2>And one of my small comforts of this is that

0:39:23.440 --> 0:39:28.719
<v Speaker 2>there was one spectator the coronation that saw Josephine walking

0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.239
<v Speaker 2>down the aisle in her finery and said, oh, look

0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:37.160
<v Speaker 2>there's barasis whore. Oh sorry, I don't love Josephine that much.

0:39:37.239 --> 0:39:41.160
<v Speaker 1>No, she's not interesting, but she's also not I think

0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:42.920
<v Speaker 1>the important thing about history is you don't have to

0:39:43.120 --> 0:39:45.759
<v Speaker 1>like everyone any feel the fierce loyalty to her, but

0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:48.680
<v Speaker 1>I do to some female historical figures. I think she

0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:52.320
<v Speaker 1>is an amazing survivor. Well, to fast forward again a

0:39:52.400 --> 0:39:57.279
<v Speaker 1>little bit, Obviously, Josephine probably in part thanks to her

0:39:57.360 --> 0:40:00.440
<v Speaker 1>age and also the toxic makeup she was wearing, and

0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:04.120
<v Speaker 1>also the fact that she had been using contracept contraceptive

0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:08.160
<v Speaker 1>douches for years and she had broken her pelvis. So

0:40:08.320 --> 0:40:11.560
<v Speaker 1>for all of these factors combine, and she can't bear children.

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:15.760
<v Speaker 1>She can't bear Napoleon in air, and so reluctantly they divorce.

0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:24.360
<v Speaker 2>They divorce. She Napoleon Mary's nineteen year old Marie Louise

0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:28.920
<v Speaker 2>in eighteen ten. They're nice Catholic princess, a nice Catholic princess.

0:40:28.960 --> 0:40:32.600
<v Speaker 2>The first meeting was arranged at the Chateau de Compienne,

0:40:33.000 --> 0:40:36.160
<v Speaker 2>where Louis the sixteens met Marie Antoinette for the first time.

0:40:37.080 --> 0:40:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Like Marie Antoinette, Marie Louise had to because he really

0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:42.880
<v Speaker 1>just wants to be Louis the sixteenth at this point

0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:45.280
<v Speaker 1>had to get rid of all of her French clothing

0:40:45.480 --> 0:40:48.480
<v Speaker 1>before Austrian Austrian clothing before crossing.

0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Into France, and she had to get rid of her dog,

0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 2>just like Marie Antoinette. And she hated this and was

0:40:53.760 --> 0:40:54.360
<v Speaker 2>mad about it.

0:40:54.480 --> 0:40:57.160
<v Speaker 1>And as soon as Napoleon was exiled to Elbas, she

0:40:57.320 --> 0:41:00.440
<v Speaker 1>never wrote him again. I went off Garla. She's like,

0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:03.160
<v Speaker 1>this isn't my bargain. She did her job, she gave

0:41:03.239 --> 0:41:03.680
<v Speaker 1>him a son.

0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:09.239
<v Speaker 2>Meanwhile, Josephine retires to Malmaison, her house. She is given

0:41:09.280 --> 0:41:12.279
<v Speaker 2>an allowance of three million francs as well as four

0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:17.520
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars to go exclusively to her garden. Now, Josephine

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:20.160
<v Speaker 2>got really into plants at one point. It's one of

0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:24.880
<v Speaker 2>her main accomplishments. She introdusing the concept of English gardens

0:41:25.000 --> 0:41:30.080
<v Speaker 2>to Versailles and malnabels On became an incredibly beautiful home.

0:41:30.160 --> 0:41:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Her granddaughter recalls wandering around eating sugarcane on a rounds,

0:41:34.080 --> 0:41:39.719
<v Speaker 2>just like a nice grandmother. But Josephine was inconsolable. She

0:41:39.960 --> 0:41:42.919
<v Speaker 2>said that sometimes it seems as though I am dead

0:41:43.560 --> 0:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>and that all that is left is a faint sensation

0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:48.080
<v Speaker 2>of knowing that I no longer exists.

0:41:48.360 --> 0:41:51.759
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, imagine feeling. I mean it's literally redundancy,

0:41:52.640 --> 0:41:54.719
<v Speaker 1>but it's the moment. It's like if you get laid

0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:56.360
<v Speaker 1>off and they're like it's not personal, but it's like

0:41:56.440 --> 0:41:58.440
<v Speaker 1>it's the most personal thing of her. All I done and.

0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:02.640
<v Speaker 2>Eighties a crippling redundance, I think because she was not valued.

0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:06.080
<v Speaker 2>And again we're coming back to Pompadoor. Pandadar also has

0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:09.160
<v Speaker 2>to stop being the king's mistress, but her retirement was

0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:14.120
<v Speaker 2>getting to still retirement is instead of having sex nine

0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:17.000
<v Speaker 2>times a day, I'm just gonna talk about politics and

0:42:17.200 --> 0:42:19.560
<v Speaker 2>all of the enlightened mind writers are going to come

0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:22.160
<v Speaker 2>and read me their drafts and I'll.

0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:24.399
<v Speaker 1>Give them advice. I mean, that's the horrible thing where

0:42:24.440 --> 0:42:26.480
<v Speaker 1>it's like, if you're a woman and your only value

0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:29.920
<v Speaker 1>is child bearing or being sexually attractive, then you go

0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:30.879
<v Speaker 1>to jobulate out.

0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:33.800
<v Speaker 2>And Josephine was still seen as a treasure to some

0:42:33.920 --> 0:42:36.000
<v Speaker 2>of the Allies. The Czar of Russia came to visit

0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:41.840
<v Speaker 2>her at Malmaison frequently, and but she was never happy again.

0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Josephine's overriding emotions seems to be despair at this point

0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:48.960
<v Speaker 2>in her life, and in eighteen fourteen, she caught a

0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:52.400
<v Speaker 2>cold and lapsed into a delirium. Supposedly she could be

0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:57.279
<v Speaker 2>heard muttering Napoleon Elba, King of Rome. Just before she died,

0:42:57.360 --> 0:43:00.520
<v Speaker 2>she insisted on being dressed in her pink sat morning

0:43:00.600 --> 0:43:03.320
<v Speaker 2>gown and rubies in case anyone important came in to

0:43:03.440 --> 0:43:07.680
<v Speaker 2>visit Ah, and she likely died pneumonia, though her maid

0:43:08.000 --> 0:43:10.600
<v Speaker 2>said that she died of grief at the age of

0:43:10.760 --> 0:43:11.319
<v Speaker 2>fifty one.

0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:14.200
<v Speaker 1>Fifty one very young. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of

0:43:14.280 --> 0:43:16.799
<v Speaker 1>this tragic life. And I'm so glad you brought up

0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:20.880
<v Speaker 1>Madame de Pompadour in comparison. Well, I think it is

0:43:21.760 --> 0:43:24.719
<v Speaker 1>such an interesting commentary on the revolution that they did

0:43:24.760 --> 0:43:27.600
<v Speaker 1>it and now everything is the same, but everything is worse.

0:43:28.040 --> 0:43:31.480
<v Speaker 1>And I think that when people view Napoleon and Josephine

0:43:31.480 --> 0:43:34.000
<v Speaker 1>as this like great romance, like, I think it's it's

0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:36.600
<v Speaker 1>a false image. I don't even think it works well

0:43:36.600 --> 0:43:37.239
<v Speaker 1>in the movie. Now.

0:43:37.280 --> 0:43:39.759
<v Speaker 2>I think you can take so many creative liberties when

0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:42.879
<v Speaker 2>you're making a movie. But I also think I think

0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:44.919
<v Speaker 2>a lot about the fact that these people didn't read.

0:43:45.440 --> 0:43:47.920
<v Speaker 2>And I think one thing that does come out of

0:43:48.040 --> 0:43:51.359
<v Speaker 2>reading a great deal, at least hopefully, is a kind

0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:55.320
<v Speaker 2>of healthy self awareness and a sense of humor above yourself.

0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:59.040
<v Speaker 1>And Josephina and Napoleon had absolutely no senses of humor.

0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:09.560
<v Speaker 1>Very is here. Yeah, they were deeply serious people, I

0:44:09.680 --> 0:44:12.320
<v Speaker 1>do think in terms of a noble Blood epilogue. The

0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:15.000
<v Speaker 1>one weird detail about her life that I always find

0:44:15.400 --> 0:44:18.200
<v Speaker 1>sort of morbidly fascinating is that when she felt her

0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:21.200
<v Speaker 1>position with Napoleon slipping a little, she had her daughter

0:44:21.320 --> 0:44:25.360
<v Speaker 1>Hortense marry Napoleon's brother Louis, who she hated. It's just

0:44:25.560 --> 0:44:28.680
<v Speaker 1>everybody agreed. Louis was all, yeah, that's exactly why people

0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:32.040
<v Speaker 1>needed Napoleon to divorce Josephine because we're like, we can't

0:44:32.040 --> 0:44:34.400
<v Speaker 1>have the power going to his awful brother exactly. Nobody

0:44:34.440 --> 0:44:38.759
<v Speaker 1>wanted Louis to be emperor, so like imagine Napoleon's stepdaughter

0:44:38.880 --> 0:44:41.640
<v Speaker 1>then becoming his sister in law. It's just wild.

0:44:41.719 --> 0:44:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there's a lot of inter family marriage at

0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.439
<v Speaker 2>this point, just in some desperate attempt to preserve power,

0:44:48.520 --> 0:44:50.480
<v Speaker 2>even with Josephine. Oh but.

0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:52.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I.

0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:57.759
<v Speaker 2>Feel the impressive Josephine was able to survive at all.

0:44:58.080 --> 0:45:02.120
<v Speaker 2>I think it's interesting that she was able to use

0:45:02.200 --> 0:45:05.320
<v Speaker 2>her sexuality in that way, and that her sexuality was

0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:07.880
<v Speaker 2>a thing that was very much created and not innate

0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:11.799
<v Speaker 2>to her. She was not born incredibly beautiful the way

0:45:11.840 --> 0:45:15.319
<v Speaker 2>we hear about some of the powerful women from this period.

0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:16.279
<v Speaker 1>Were, and.

0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:21.680
<v Speaker 2>That's you know, that's obviously something that is worthy of

0:45:21.800 --> 0:45:27.440
<v Speaker 2>respect and such a survival tool, and that's very very interesting.

0:45:27.719 --> 0:45:33.879
<v Speaker 2>I think because Napoleon hated intellectual women, it's a little

0:45:33.960 --> 0:45:37.719
<v Speaker 2>unsatisfying to try to look at more of Josephine's accomplishments.

0:45:38.160 --> 0:45:42.240
<v Speaker 2>But I could also be wrong. As Ridley Scott said,

0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:44.960
<v Speaker 2>were you there, then you don't fucking know.

0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:49.200
<v Speaker 1>I was not there. And I am sure there are

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:52.759
<v Speaker 1>scholars of Josephine who would uh set me.

0:45:53.080 --> 0:45:55.680
<v Speaker 2>Set me to rights, and tell me that she had

0:45:56.440 --> 0:46:01.279
<v Speaker 2>a fascinating and rich inner life. He just wasn't as

0:46:01.640 --> 0:46:05.520
<v Speaker 2>evident as it might have been with some other historical women.

0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:08.320
<v Speaker 2>And one theme that I've found always so fascinating in

0:46:08.480 --> 0:46:14.120
<v Speaker 2>Noble Blood is this stark juxtaposition, this like tragic juxtaposition

0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:18.719
<v Speaker 2>I've found between incredible glamour, like these people spending exorbitant

0:46:18.760 --> 0:46:21.160
<v Speaker 2>amount of money, spent eight hundred dollars a year on

0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:23.720
<v Speaker 2>eight hundred francs a year on perfume when the average

0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:26.360
<v Speaker 2>Parisian families income was six hundred francs.

0:46:26.560 --> 0:46:30.640
<v Speaker 1>So this just like extraordinary glamour in concert with these

0:46:31.239 --> 0:46:34.800
<v Speaker 1>tragic mechanisms and feeling trapped. I just find it very interesting.

0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Is this reinforcing idea where it's like it's a cliche

0:46:38.120 --> 0:46:40.640
<v Speaker 1>that money doesn't buy you happiness and power doesn't buy

0:46:40.640 --> 0:46:43.560
<v Speaker 1>you happiness. But it's like I think we as audience

0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:49.480
<v Speaker 1>members and podcast listeners and writers are drawn to power

0:46:49.560 --> 0:46:52.280
<v Speaker 1>and money and glamour, and then all the more interesting

0:46:52.360 --> 0:46:56.120
<v Speaker 1>when there's this like deeply tragic undercurrent to it. It

0:46:56.280 --> 0:46:59.520
<v Speaker 1>is a deeply tragic under curid. Yeah, no, we see her.

0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:00.799
<v Speaker 3>Look.

0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:03.399
<v Speaker 2>I think, at least by the standards of the time,

0:47:04.160 --> 0:47:07.439
<v Speaker 2>Josephine could count herself as someone who was deeply loved. Yeah,

0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:10.719
<v Speaker 2>she obviously ended this a millionaire many many times over.

0:47:10.960 --> 0:47:13.000
<v Speaker 2>She had a very beautiful home, and she had two

0:47:13.080 --> 0:47:17.040
<v Speaker 2>children who seemed very devoted to her. This isn't a

0:47:17.200 --> 0:47:21.560
<v Speaker 2>tragic story. It's just a story about the limitations that

0:47:21.680 --> 0:47:24.719
<v Speaker 2>were placed on women at that time, which to me

0:47:24.840 --> 0:47:27.760
<v Speaker 2>do feel especially tragic if you believe that the revolution

0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:31.080
<v Speaker 2>was supposed to create some kind of a quality.

0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:33.880
<v Speaker 1>I think that is a beautiful note to end on, Jennifer,

0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:35.200
<v Speaker 1>Where can the good people find you?

0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:35.640
<v Speaker 4>Oh?

0:47:36.280 --> 0:47:40.200
<v Speaker 1>They should find me on threads because I don't so well,

0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:45.240
<v Speaker 1>No one should. Nobody should. It's Jen Ashley Wright on Threads,

0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:50.239
<v Speaker 1>of course, pund oh as. My most recent book is

0:47:50.360 --> 0:47:55.759
<v Speaker 1>Madame Ristelle, a History of New York's most fabulous, fearless,

0:47:55.840 --> 0:48:00.959
<v Speaker 1>and infamous abortionists and you can let it perver book

0:48:01.040 --> 0:48:19.400
<v Speaker 1>sourceld fantastic, Thank you so much, thank you. Noble Blood

0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:23.520
<v Speaker 1>is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild

0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:27.719
<v Speaker 1>from Aaron mank. Noble Blood is created and hosted by

0:48:27.880 --> 0:48:33.200
<v Speaker 1>me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston,

0:48:33.560 --> 0:48:38.360
<v Speaker 1>Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The

0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:42.680
<v Speaker 1>show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and rima

0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers

0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:53.480
<v Speaker 1>Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts

0:48:53.560 --> 0:48:59.120
<v Speaker 1>from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:00.720
<v Speaker 1>you listen to your favorite shows.