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Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim

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Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Mankey listener discretion advised. Hello, welcome

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Speaker 1: to a very special episode of Noble Blood. I am

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Speaker 1: here with my friend, the brilliant writer and historian Jennifer Wright.

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Speaker 1: Hi Jennifer, Hi Danna. I am so happy to be

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Speaker 1: here again. I am genuinely thrilled to be doing this

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Speaker 1: episode with you. We are going to be talking about

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Speaker 1: Josephine Bonaparte, which was not her actual name, really it

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Speaker 1: was not, but for popular reference, Josephine Bonaparte. And what

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Speaker 1: I find very exciting is coincidentally, both you and I

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Speaker 1: separately saw the Napoleon movie, the Wordly Scott movie. Last night.

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Speaker 1: We did. Yeah. I was at the Americana. I was

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Speaker 1: at the Grove. Oh my god. We were both doing

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Speaker 1: our Rick Caruso Many Many Town. That's a very la

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Speaker 1: thing to say. I really liked it. I had a blast.

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Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it. I think there are some historical accuracies.

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Speaker 2: I don't think they matter. I think there are historical

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Speaker 2: accuracies in Marie Antoinette by Sophia Coppola, doesn't stop it

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Speaker 2: from being an amazing movie. I think their historical inaccuracies

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Speaker 2: in Marie Antoinette starring Norma Shear doesn't make it less

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Speaker 2: of an amazing powerhouse performance by Norma Fear.

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Speaker 1: I have gone on the record and I will continue

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Speaker 1: to go on the record and say that I think

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Speaker 1: historical fiction should not operate like a history book. No,

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Speaker 1: it's entertainment. It's entertainment. It's about theme, it's about character,

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Speaker 1: it's about it's about vibes. It's vibe.

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Speaker 2: Slowly do they get the vibes of French Revolution and

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Speaker 2: the vibes of Napoleon being a very unpleasant little bit.

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Speaker 1: I wrote my letterbox review, which is the most film

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Speaker 1: broth thing I'll ever say. And then my letterbox review

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Speaker 1: is like, it is a misconception that Napoleon was short.

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Speaker 1: He was average. I that was average high time, was.

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Speaker 2: Very hunched, and he was poorly fed growing up because

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Speaker 2: his mother cared a great deal about having furniture in

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Speaker 2: about Saha, but not providing food for her children.

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Speaker 1: And of course there was the discrepancy in the English

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Speaker 1: system of measurement and the French system of measurement. And

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Speaker 1: also as a first.

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Speaker 2: Go if you were British Willington was five ten.

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Speaker 1: I and Napoleon had had two guards next tohem who

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Speaker 1: are very tall, very tall. But my letterbox review was

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Speaker 1: that Napoleon was not short. But as this movie makes

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Speaker 1: UPU net clear, he was Europe's weirdest little guy. That

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Speaker 1: that is exactly right, that is absolutely true. And the

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Speaker 1: beautiful Vanessa Kirby played Josephine, which we'll get into her life,

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Speaker 1: but to Segue, I will say I did find it

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Speaker 1: very hollywood that they got an actress like fifteen years

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Speaker 1: younger than Joaquin Phoenix, when.

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Speaker 2: When in reality, Josephine was six years older then Napoleon,

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Speaker 2: and Napoleon was very young when they met. It's twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about Josephine before they met. Well, I want

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Speaker 2: to talk about another person who I know we've talked

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Speaker 2: about on the podcast before as well, and that's Madame

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Speaker 2: Pompadour and the reason that my favorite historical woman, and

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Speaker 2: that's because when Josephine was fifteen years old, she was

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Speaker 2: told by a fortune teller that she would marry a

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Speaker 2: dark man who would cover the world in glory and

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Speaker 2: make her greater than a queen. And I was so

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Speaker 2: strict by this because this also happened to Madame Pompadour

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Speaker 2: Louis fifteenth mistress.

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Speaker 1: These fortunetage are just out here every pretty young girl.

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Speaker 2: I think these fortune tellers were not uncannily accurate. I

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Speaker 2: think they just realized that if a young girl comes in,

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Speaker 2: just tell her she's going to be a princess.

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Speaker 1: And if she's a very beautiful, they're like, you will

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Speaker 1: marry a great man, a great man. Y, yes, yeah.

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Speaker 2: When Madame Pompter was nine, the fortune teller told her

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Speaker 2: that she would capture the heart of a king and

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Speaker 2: be not quite a queen, but a little queen. And

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Speaker 2: just to give you a little bit of perspective on

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Speaker 2: Madame Pompadour, because I think there's such fascinating archetypes of

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Speaker 2: pre revolutionary and post revolutionary women. Madame Pompadour, who was

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Speaker 2: born Jean Pusson, was by almost any stretch of the

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Speaker 2: definition a genius. She was extremely well educated. She was

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Speaker 2: almost compulsively well read, so much so that the most

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Speaker 2: famous portraits of her by Bouchet show her reading and

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Speaker 2: surrounded by more books. When she was told to get

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Speaker 2: married by her family, she married a wealthier man who

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Speaker 2: was not excited about the prospect of marrying this middle

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Speaker 2: class bourgeois woman. He met her, he was immediately in

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Speaker 2: love with her, so much so that he was devastated

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Speaker 2: when the king took her for his mistress. As soon

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Speaker 2: as she was let loose in Paris, she dominated every

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Speaker 2: literary salon. Vul Teraire became her closest friend. She was

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Speaker 2: able to secure him a position at court. And I

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Speaker 2: think it's pretty well established that once she was made

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Speaker 2: the King's mistress, she was a great champion of the enlightenment.

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Speaker 2: She fought against censorship. She was friends with Didero and Montesquie.

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Speaker 2: She fought the Catholic Church to create a French encyclopedia.

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Speaker 2: The king considered her his best adviser and consulted with

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Speaker 2: her on every matter. He should not have done that.

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Speaker 2: During the seven years of war, not know where to

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Speaker 2: place cannons, she was very.

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Speaker 1: Like, you know, and you know, I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: you know, who knew how to play, can't place cannons,

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Speaker 1: just Napoleon. But I think it's also true that. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want to dismiss Madame Pompadour as being frivolous,

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Speaker 1: because I think she was very concerned about, for instance,

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Speaker 1: what she saws overreached the Catholic Church, or censorship or

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Speaker 1: the continued expansion of the Russian military. The metal.

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Speaker 2: Pompadour's greatest day to day concerned with whether or not

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Speaker 2: she was able to sutly satisfy the king nine times

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Speaker 2: a day as he requested. Wow, all right, And when

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Speaker 2: her frail health after six years meant that she was

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Speaker 2: no longer able to do that, the King just gave

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Speaker 2: her a new role at court that basically equated to

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Speaker 2: the King's best friend.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: She celebrated it by giving him a naked statue of

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Speaker 2: herself popping her breasts at him, entitled the Spirit of Friendship.

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Speaker 1: Ha ha ha. That's a great that's a great inspiray. And

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Speaker 1: she's perhaps best remembered for her statement apri now lad

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Speaker 1: Yeu's that came after the epic failure that was the

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Speaker 1: Seven Years War, when Francis army was just destroyed and

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Speaker 1: their economy entirely depleted. And what it means is after

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Speaker 1: us will come the flood.

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Speaker 2: And Josephine was really bored into that flood quite literally.

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Speaker 2: She was born Marie joseph Rose tache de la pacherie.

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Speaker 2: She would come to be known as Josephine only when

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Speaker 2: Napoleon started calling her Josephine. She was largely known as

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Speaker 2: Rose throughout her life.

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Speaker 1: Untilda, well, that's the good thing about having three hyphenated

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Speaker 1: names is people can just choose their favor and go

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 2: And that is exactly what happened to Josephine. She was

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Speaker 2: born on a sugar plantation in Martinique in seventeen sixty three,

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Speaker 2: and she was born a year before Madame Pompadour died

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Speaker 2: at the age of forty two. Can I interrupt so

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Speaker 2: briefly just a historical fact that has always fascinated me.

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Speaker 2: Is Martinique went back in fourth between the British British

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Speaker 2: friend and I know that it went from the British

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Speaker 2: to the French just four months before Josephine was born.

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Speaker 1: Yep. So there's a world where she was born and

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Speaker 1: she was British and she's off seducing. I don't know

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Speaker 1: the Duke of Wealling, Lord Nelson, Duke of Wellington. Sure.

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Speaker 2: When she was three her house was entirely destroyed by

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Speaker 2: a hurricane, and rather than rebuilding, as her father who

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Speaker 2: was a chronic gambler, just kind of moved them into

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Speaker 2: the one non destroyed part of the house. She was

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Speaker 2: never properly educated, to be fair. She was also not.

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Speaker 1: Interested in books in any capacity.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she was left to run essentially wild on the plantation.

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Speaker 2: She mostly ate sugar, which designed her teeth entirely and

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Speaker 2: made her very overweight. And just for a little perspective again,

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Speaker 2: because I love the balance between these two women. When

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Speaker 2: Madame Pompadour told her family about the fortune teller's prophecy,

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Speaker 2: which she'd heard because she was on a girl's day

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Speaker 2: with her mom when she was getting their fortunes read,

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Speaker 2: her entire family was delighted and they started calling her Radat,

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Speaker 2: which means.

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Speaker 1: Our little queen. When Josephine told her family about the prophecy,

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Speaker 1: she was locked in a sack for eight days because

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Speaker 1: they accused her of consorting with a witch. Sure, so

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Speaker 1: Josephine is not growing up in the free, flourishing Enlightenment

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Speaker 1: era of France that some of her contemporaries were. And

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Speaker 1: because she now had rotted teeth and was very overweight

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Speaker 1: and her family was completely broke, she was not married

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Speaker 1: off to a plantation owner's son, and her marriage prospects

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Speaker 1: were looking very, very bad by the time she was fifteen,

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Speaker 1: But she had an aunt who had been a marquis

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Speaker 1: mistress for eighteen years, and the marquis was getting older

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Speaker 1: and he was worried about the long term security of

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Speaker 1: his mistress. And Josephine's aunt convinced the marquis and Mary

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Speaker 1: his son to Josephine. So Josephine goes off to marry

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Speaker 1: Alexandre de Beauharnay. He is seventeen. He already has a

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Speaker 1: twenty nine year old mistress. Her name is Madame DeLonge Prey.

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Speaker 1: Apparently she's very charming and witty. I've never read anything

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Speaker 1: about Madame Delongere that doesn't make her seem like a

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Speaker 1: bit but fine. He has a twenty nine year old mistress,

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Speaker 1: and he is horrified when Josephine gets off the boat.

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Speaker 1: He is deeply disappointed in her appearance. He's deeply disappointed

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Speaker 1: in her lack of education. He starts forcing her to

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Speaker 1: go out to literary salons, of where people immediately make

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Speaker 1: fun of her for being an idiot. Women say that

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Speaker 1: she looks like a little girl dressed up in her

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Speaker 1: mother's clothes, Joseph and Okay, to be fair, I don't

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Speaker 1: want this to be me. But the literary salons at

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Speaker 1: this particular time were mostly just discussing Dangerously Asons, which, look,

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Speaker 1: they were very specific book clubs. I love Dangerously Asons,

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Speaker 1: but it used four hundred pages of very horny letters

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Speaker 1: from imaginary aristocrats back and forth. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: If your only takeaway after reading Dangerously Asons was I

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Speaker 2: think it would be fun to have sex with the

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Speaker 2: vicant de Valmond. That would be a completely valid contribution,

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Speaker 2: and indeed all it should.

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Speaker 1: What if he's played by Ryan Phillipp exactly?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what if they made him wear a suit as

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Speaker 2: a high school student?

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Speaker 1: Well, of course, very sexy. I once saw this is

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Speaker 1: my fun fact. I once saw Dangerously aisms on Broadway

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Speaker 1: with leab Dreiber in that role, and it doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: I saw it too. He was not work. He looks

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Speaker 1: like a dock. I also thought Alan Rickman clips I

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Speaker 1: was still online if you ever want to look those.

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Speaker 1: My take on leib Dreiber was I was like, I

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Speaker 1: think he was going through a divorce at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, is there a real wine in

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Speaker 1: the carross? Like he did not seem like engage. He's

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Speaker 1: a good actor, and it just was not workings and

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Speaker 1: seemed like he has the finesse of the velmonk. No,

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Speaker 1: he did not seem sneaky. Yeah it did not work. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: no he uh he seems he seems like a battle axe.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't seem like someone who enjoys the secrecy and

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Speaker 1: power game surroundings. Yeah. So that is my little Broadway

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Speaker 1: review corner. Please continue. So he's being mocked at this out,

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Speaker 1: he's being mocked at the salons and in she ends

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Speaker 1: up having two children by Alexandre and there is Look,

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Speaker 1: there is a part of me that loves the fact

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Speaker 1: that Medame Pompadour so thoroughly dominated the public imagination in

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Speaker 1: terms of what a sexy, desirable woman he is. Alexandri

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Speaker 1: responded to this by being like, I cannot possibly fuck

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Speaker 1: let alone love a woman who does not go to

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Speaker 1: book clubs. I mean that's great. It's like when you

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Speaker 1: know our culture or what is sexy is a cultural concert.

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Speaker 1: I think that like in the early two thousands, there's

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Speaker 1: that Girl's Gone wild, Paris held the thing and then

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Speaker 1: we got like the smartest sexy and I think that

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that that was still happening in the seventeen hundred.

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Speaker 1: It flactuates back and forth, and that is fascinating. Isn't

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Speaker 1: it fun that women have to shape our very identities

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Speaker 1: in order to be desirable.

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Speaker 2: Yes, But Alexandre says that he can not possibly remain

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Speaker 2: at home with this object who has nothing to say

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Speaker 2: to him. So again, this is devastating for Josephine, and

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Speaker 2: he goes off with his mistress, Lord de Longpree, but

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Speaker 2: not before impregnating Josephine twice. Now when she is having

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Speaker 2: his second immediately after she has important is number one

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Speaker 2: nine gene yeah, Eugenie yep. Immediately after she had his

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Speaker 2: second child, alex decides to divorce her so he can

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Speaker 2: be with his mistress. In a truly insane response, he

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Speaker 2: accuses her of infidelity. He says that she is lower

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Speaker 2: than all the sluts.

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Speaker 1: On the earth. Josephine has been nothing but faithful this

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Speaker 1: entire career. Calling Josephine a slut, I'm sorry also for

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Speaker 1: using this lay. They say it explicitly in the movie

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Speaker 1: Napoleon Bade You Well. We'll come to that. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: at this point, totally fine, At this point, very very fine, uh,

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Speaker 1: and again not to slut him, be a slud do whatever. Sure,

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Speaker 1: at this point she has been nothing but incredibly faithful

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Speaker 1: to Alexandre. Josephine retires to a convent to wait out

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Speaker 1: the proceedings for legal separation. A lot of women did this,

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Speaker 1: getting back to dangerous liaisons. Madame Trouvelle retires to a

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Speaker 1: convent to escape the advances of the Vicon de velment.

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Speaker 1: And if you've if you're listening to Noble Blood, if

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to noble blood, Isabella or Isabella of Angoulem,

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Speaker 1: retires to a convent after her scandal. Exactly so.

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Speaker 2: Lots of stylish women are staying at this convent, and

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Speaker 2: in an almost unheard of turn of events, the judge

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Speaker 2: actually sides with Josephine during the legal separation and he

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Speaker 2: agrees that Josephine has been wronged. He orders Alexandre to

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Speaker 2: take care of his children and to withdraw any accusations

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Speaker 2: towards Josephine. Alexandre does none of that, but fortunately the

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Speaker 2: other women at this convent had taken note upon themselves

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Speaker 2: to give Josephine a makeover, so they teach her how

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Speaker 2: to use makeup, which she will use a massive amount

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Speaker 2: of throughout the rest of her life. They also showed

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Speaker 2: her how to lose weight, mostly by not subsisting entirely

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Speaker 2: on candy. And the fashions were also changing. Marie Antoinette

259
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Speaker 2: was going through her Tea trianon phase right now, so

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Speaker 2: instead of the huge pompadour roughly hyperfeminine gowns, people were

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Speaker 2: dressing in much more simple muslin gowns, and that suited

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Speaker 2: Josephine a lot better and she felt a lot more

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Speaker 2: comfortable in that. So after her time at the convent,

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Speaker 2: she went to Fontainebleau where the king had his hunt,

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Speaker 2: and she charmed the master of the hunt. He invited

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Speaker 2: her to come along hunting with the various aristocrats that

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Speaker 2: the king invited. She was able to find a protector

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Speaker 2: very quickly. I think she had three of them. All

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Speaker 2: of them were about twenty years older than her. They

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Speaker 2: were giving him a tremendous amount of jewels. She was

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Speaker 2: able to take care of her children, and I think

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Speaker 2: had things continued this way, she probably would have ended

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Speaker 2: up like her aunt, being a permanent mistress to one

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Speaker 2: of these men. Except a revolution happens in seventeen eighty nine,

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Speaker 2: the revolution promising equality for the common people comes and

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Speaker 2: Alexandra for wanting his miserable, fucking life is a little

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Speaker 2: bit useful for Josephine.

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Speaker 1: He was a noble, but he was also so a

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Speaker 1: staunt anti royalist.

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Speaker 2: He was a vicante. This is stupid. He shouldn't have

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Speaker 2: done this. But he became a key member of the

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Speaker 2: National Assembly, representing a group of nobles that believe that

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Speaker 2: the monarchy should be a ball And of.

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Speaker 1: Course this ended really famously well and he worked out

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Speaker 1: great for him. But when the royal family attempted to

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Speaker 1: flee the country, it was Alexandre who dispatched the writers

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Speaker 1: to bring him back and a National Assembly that everybody

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Speaker 1: had to wait until the royal family returned. But they

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Speaker 1: couldn't get away from this.

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Speaker 2: He emerged very briefly as a hero to Paris, and

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Speaker 2: Josephine is suddenly very much in style. She's being invited everywhere.

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Speaker 1: She is seen very.

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Speaker 2: Briefly as being a hero of the revolution. Unfortunately, the

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Speaker 2: promise of democracy did not change France's situation at all.

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Speaker 2: The people who were starving before are still starving, and

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Speaker 2: by seventeen ninety three, the Reign of Terror, led by

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Speaker 2: robes Bay had begun, and it was carried out with

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Speaker 2: the intent of eliminating anyone deemed parasitic on the state,

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Speaker 2: and of course that includes all royals and all members

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Speaker 2: of the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 1: Oh and Josephine's husband gets the Jophine's husband is guillotine very,

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Speaker 1: very quickly. It's so fascinating.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to dwell too much on the Reign

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Speaker 2: of Terror, but a reign of terror is fascinating to me.

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Speaker 2: The executions were based on everything. The one that fascinates

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Speaker 2: me is that some executions happened because people had old

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Speaker 2: playing cards and it was seen as showing sympathy towards kings.

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Speaker 3: And sure, if you're playing cards, what you think. One

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Speaker 3: of the other special horrors with the revolution that always

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Speaker 3: sticks in my mind, special starring special horrors horrors of

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Speaker 3: the Reign of Terror, is that a lot of aristocrats

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Speaker 3: had dogs. Uh so their dogs went wild after they

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Speaker 3: were dragged to the guillotine, and it meant that rabbit

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Speaker 3: packs of dogs were roaming the street drinking blood out

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Speaker 3: of the gutters. So the army had to be dispatched

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Speaker 3: to start shooting the dogs.

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Speaker 1: That's also another I mean, it feels like those stories

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Speaker 1: are reappearing because a few hundred years earlier, we're going

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Speaker 1: to get a dog with the beheading of Mary, Queen

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Speaker 1: of Scones. Famously, when before she went to get beheaded,

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Speaker 1: she hit her dog in her skirts, so they came out.

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Speaker 2: The one that it makes me think of is the

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Speaker 2: Rwandan genocide, for the government again had to be dispatched

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Speaker 2: because dogs and so many people were murdered that their

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Speaker 2: dogs just ran wild on the street. A lot of

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Speaker 2: them went ravid. This isn't a theory, but I think

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Speaker 2: this feels self evident. But I think if you have

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Speaker 2: to dispatch the army to kill all the rabid dogs

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Speaker 2: roaming your streets, your revolution had failed. You are going

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Speaker 2: to be remembered very poorly by his stitch.

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Speaker 1: True, So we need to fast forward just a little bit,

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Speaker 1: and Josephine is in prison.

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Speaker 2: Josephine's in prison. Josephine is at Las Comes. It's one

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Speaker 2: of the most horrifying prisons in Paris.

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Speaker 1: But good news.

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Speaker 2: Her roommate in her cellmate, I guess in the prison

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Speaker 2: is Teresa Cabarets. She is the mistress to the revolutionary

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Speaker 2: John Tallienne. Now, Theresa is pretty angry that her boyfriend

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Speaker 2: Protector whatever, is in close coats with robes Bier and

340
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Speaker 2: yet she's imprisoned. So she sends Talian a dagger and

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Speaker 2: a letter demanding that he kill robes Ba and free

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Speaker 2: her immediately. And if he doesn't do this, he's not

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Speaker 2: a man. And she feels personal shamed that she ever

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Speaker 2: slept with us, and Italian actually does this, which is

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Speaker 2: amazing to me.

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Speaker 1: He's like, okay, ropes here has to go for all

347
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 1: the reasons, but also for this, no very much, specifically

348
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Speaker 1: for this and only for this. So when Robesby is

349
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Speaker 1: giving a speech at the convention, Talian storms the stage,

350
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 1: waving the dagger Teresa's sent him and shouting down with

351
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Speaker 1: this dictator. His co conspirator, pauled de Barras joins him

352
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Speaker 1: and Robesby a flees. He tries to suit himself, but

353
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Speaker 1: he only succeeds in shattering his job before being dragged

354
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Speaker 1: to the guillotine. Italian and Barrass emerged from this as heroes.

355
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Speaker 1: Barrass became the head of the new Directorate government. He's

356
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,720
Speaker 1: also one of the only remaining super wealthy men in Paris,

357
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Speaker 1: and Josephine emerged from prison at Teresa's behest. Teresa, who

358
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Speaker 1: has become a hero to the Parisians, has not forgot

359
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,200
Speaker 1: her friend. But Josephine emerges to find Paris and ruins.

360
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Speaker 1: Most of the homes have been lit a blaze. But

361
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Speaker 1: she's popular again. Yeah, and this is about when she'll

362
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Speaker 1: meet Napoleon at a part almost Yes, okay, we're coming

363
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,440
Speaker 1: to that. The Baron de Frindley wrote at this time

364
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Speaker 1: that after the reign of her it was in height

365
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Speaker 1: of good manners to be ruined, to have been suspected, persecuted.

366
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Speaker 2: And above all imprisoned. People started wearing their hair crop

367
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Speaker 2: to immitate prison styles.

368
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Speaker 1: Victim for loved dem Yes, my French pronunciation is not

369
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: as good as your. It's ribbons around their necks and

370
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Speaker 1: not to the guillotine. Josephine's welcome at the extremely exclusive

371
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Speaker 1: Balde Victim where I believe that Balde Victim actually happened

372
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Speaker 1: all the time. Yes, absolutely, okay, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: There were basically like support groups for people who had

374
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Speaker 2: been imprisoned. There were special salons.

375
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Speaker 1: For people who had been in I've just been from

376
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Speaker 1: a purely historical standpoint, It was whether whether the actual

377
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Speaker 1: like the main bald of victim was a actually happened

378
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Speaker 1: or was like a Romantic invention. I mean, I don't know,

379
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,639
Speaker 1: you need to really say. My guess and my speculation

380
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Speaker 1: is it's like a combination. Like I think people were

381
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Speaker 1: having these parties and then I think in the Romantic

382
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,879
Speaker 1: era people were like build up their ideas.

383
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Speaker 4: Oh nice, only yeah, the speaking of parties, Josephine was

384
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Speaker 4: spending an astronomical amound. She was one of the only

385
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,680
Speaker 4: women in the city with a carriage at a time

386
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,959
Speaker 4: when bread was so scarce that wealthy people brought their

387
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,480
Speaker 4: own food to every dinner party because you couldn't expect

388
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,720
Speaker 4: other people to have food. Josephine was also deeply in debt.

389
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Speaker 4: She's being constantly perceived.

390
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: She's spending out her money on carriages. She's an insane expense.

391
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Speaker 1: She's in desperate need of he protector who will cover

392
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 1: her expensive Fortunately, she'd remained very close with Teresa, who's

393
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 1: universally beloved in Paris, and she's now married to Italian

394
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 1: and posting some truly extravagant orgies. So Josephine becomes one

395
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 1: of the Marviliuses of this period. She appears around town,

396
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: cladd in only see through Greek style gowns and sandals.

397
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Speaker 1: Some of the Marviliuses walked through the streets with their

398
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 1: breasts exposed. Most of them soaked their gowns in water

399
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 1: so they would clan to their bodies before going out.

400
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: And around this time, Teresa introduces her to Paulton Barross.

401
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,639
Speaker 1: Paul's now the president of the National Assembly. He's the

402
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: richest man in Paris. He's able to pay off the

403
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 1: many many.

404
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: People pursuing Josephine for money, and he asks only that

405
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 2: she'll arrange orgies for him. She does in very extravagant style. Apparently,

406
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 2: at these orgies, women dip their breasts in champagne glasses.

407
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,120
Speaker 2: They stripped naked and pretended to be jungle cats. They

408
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,199
Speaker 2: took off their dresses and wagered on who were the least.

409
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: Josephine sat on Deboras's lap the entire time so he

410
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 2: could bondle and have sex with her.

411
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: Throughout. Everything's going great, She's enjoying life.

412
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Speaker 2: And it was around this time that a twenty two

413
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 2: year old Corsican general appears and it's Napoleon Bonaparte. He

414
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: is absolutely agg at the women in Paris. He writes

415
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: to her brother, here alone, they deserve to rule. All

416
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: the men are mad for them. They think of nothing

417
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 2: but them. They live only for them. A woman needs

418
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: to live in Paris for six months to know what

419
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 2: her do is. He has big virgin energy, he has

420
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 2: big virtin He's very very much a virgin. Women also

421
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 2: don't like him. He is a very brilliant military strategist.

422
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: He is very uncomfortable to talk to. His technique with

423
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 2: women was to stare at them for many, many minutes

424
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 2: on and did not say anything. Most women found this

425
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: very creepy. Sure, but Napoleon was one of Deborasa's proteges.

426
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: So he seats him next to Josephine at a seemingly

427
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: non orgy related dinner.

428
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 1: Sure, that's what they say. And whenever it tender, it's like, oh,

429
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: how do you meet, and it's like they met on tender,

430
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 1: but it's like, oh we met dad friend party, and

431
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: so it's like it was a non orgy party.

432
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,640
Speaker 2: I think this one was a non ergy party because

433
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: I think Napoleon would have been very frightened.

434
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's funny to imagine them trying to whitewash

435
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: how he met story. Yeah, and Josephine was nice to him.

436
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 1: He says that she's the first woman in Paris who

437
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: has been nice to him a lot. She just talked

438
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: to him about how she saw his military strategy, was

439
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 1: smart the entire time, and touched his arm. Oh, kid's

440
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: interesting that in the movie they make her seem like

441
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: an elusive creature of mystery, and it's not that she

442
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: was just a very pretty lady who was being nice

443
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: to him at dinner, and Napoleon was in love. He

444
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: proposes very soon after, and Josephine, to everyone's surprise. I

445
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 1: think they were married six months after meeting yep. And

446
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: people kept wondering why she was marrying this man who

447
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: was commonly accepted to be a fool, especially because, by

448
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 1: Josephine's own admission, she.

449
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 2: Had only lukewarm feelings towards him. For Us said that

450
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 2: she was motivated entirely by money, and she would be

451
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: had her own lover if she could drink gold out

452
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: of his skull. But Bross was pretty mad about this,

453
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 2: and Napoleon had so much less money than any other man.

454
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: She knew he made fifteen thousand francs a year, and

455
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 2: that's what she was spending on makeup at this point.

456
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, a slightly more pragmatic explanation

457
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,959
Speaker 2: is that Josephine is thirty one by this point, Bros

458
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: is very unlikely to marry her. She probably is thinking

459
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 2: about her future in a somewhat strategic way. If Napoleon

460
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: isn't successful now, he seems like he's on the verge

461
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: of becoming very successful. But I think the most charitable

462
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: explanation is just that he's a very awkward little foreigner

463
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: over awed by Paris, who everybody thinks is awkward and dumb.

464
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: And I think he probably reminded her of a younger

465
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: version of herself in a way that she felt very

466
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 2: tenderly towards. I'll also say there's something very charming. I

467
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 2: think Napoleon is a very smart man.

468
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: I think we can say that I think he's a

469
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: bri militia early, you know. In turn ways, I think

470
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: that she probably found his intelligence attractive, But would I

471
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: also find very attractive is someone who like openly, really

472
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: likes you, boss, really look, but she wasn't gonna marry him.

473
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying, like she was a guy who's like, I

474
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: love you, I want to marry you, and I'd be like,

475
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: all right, let's get on with it.

476
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: You know.

477
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: I think that's interesting. But certainly after their marriage, he

478
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 2: goes off to Italy. He writes her a constant stream

479
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: of letters.

480
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: This is if you are a noble blood listener, listen

481
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: to our episode on the Black Count Tom Alexander Duma,

482
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: and that'll be like a good companion to this, because

483
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: you're like, what was Napoleon off doing in Italy and Egypt?

484
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: That episode will be the context. And meanwhile he's over

485
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: there Josephine Josephine.

486
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 2: One of his letters says that if Josephine ever takes

487
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 2: a lover, he will enact Othello style revenge, murdering her

488
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 2: and her lover and himself. This is all of the letters.

489
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: This is how they all read.

490
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: He keeps writing things. I feel like I've read these

491
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 1: letters and he's like, if you loved me, you'd write

492
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: me twice a day.

493
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: Hey, good women would be I don't think constantly. I

494
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: find I don't care for Napoleon's letters. I know that

495
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,679
Speaker 2: I see I know that they go for millions and

496
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 2: millions of dollars at auction. But what bothers me the

497
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 2: most about them is that there is no teasing, there's

498
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 2: no warmth of familiarity, there's no friendship in those letters.

499
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 2: Napoleon was an aspiring romantic novelist. When he came to parent,

500
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: he was trying to write a romantic novel. And I

501
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: think in all of his letters, Josephine could be replaced

502
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: by a sexy automaton and the letters would read exactly.

503
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not very personal.

504
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 2: Well, I think if you've paid attention to someone's sandwich

505
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: preferences and send them a link to a sandwich shop,

506
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: you think they'd enjoy it would be more romantic than

507
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: anything Napoleon wrote.

508
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: Josephine seems like he's just very I mean, he's very

509
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: excited about being in love and desperate for I mean,

510
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: not to extend the metaphor of conquering, but like to

511
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: own and possess. That's this woman. Yes, I have a wife.

512
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: I love her, she loves me. I have her. That

513
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: is set.

514
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 3: Yes.

515
00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: Yes, Josephine says that he does not love her, he

516
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: worships her. Yeah, And I think that does get at

517
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: some of the difference there.

518
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: Now Josephine, while he is away, has taken a lover

519
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: Ippoly Charles. Oh, yeah, he.

520
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: Was twenty three. He was very, very handsome. He fit

521
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: in very well with Josephine's Paris friends. Barros said he

522
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: looked like a wigman cruise dummy. Ross is my favorite

523
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: person in this entire story, Nabole and meanwhile was in despair.

524
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: He writes.

525
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 2: Barasaid, if Josephine didn't join him in Italy, she was

526
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: going to kill himself.

527
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: And Josephine's like, no, thanks, I'm not this time. You're correct. Uh.

528
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: Barross needed Napoleon to win battles in Italy because France

529
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: needs to re establish itself as a country with some

530
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: kind of military power. So Barross tells Josephine that he

531
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,959
Speaker 2: is throwing a very elaborate dinner for her. He doesn't

532
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: she'd throw this dinner apparrellin It's very nice. And afterwards

533
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: he picks her up, bundles her into a carriage, and

534
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: tells her she has to go to Italy. Now. I

535
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: don't know how to explain their relationship at this point,

536
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: except they seem to be best friends who hate each other.

537
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 2: The compromise is that they agree that she can bring

538
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: it Charles along with her to Italy. So off Josephine

539
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: goes to Italy. She seems to somewhat enjoy her time

540
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: in Italy, but before long Napoleon has to head on

541
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: to Egypt, and he continues the sending letters to Josephine constantly. Meanwhile,

542
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 2: Josephine goes off to take the waters for her health.

543
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 2: She writes to Brass telling him that she hopes he

544
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 2: gets really, really really sick so he can join her.

545
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 2: I love their relationship. And in Egypt, Napoleon is talking

546
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 2: about his wife so constantly that his soldiers say that

547
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 2: virgies on idolatry. He is aimed to Camp, who was

548
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: having an affair with Josephine's maid, finally tells him that

549
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: Josephine is having an affair. Napoleon is devastated. He writes

550
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: his brother that he's going to get a divorce. The

551
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: ship carrying his letter is seized and it gets reprinted

552
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 2: and distributed in all the British papers. Oh that's oh,

553
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 2: British people are so excited, they're so happy. This is

554
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 2: a great day for them. Debt collectors assume that Josephine

555
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 2: will be divorced imminently, and they sit on her Deborahs

556
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: stops French papers from printing this article. He fights off

557
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: all her debt collectors and he gets her the money

558
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: to buy a house called Malmaison, where he tells her

559
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: to wait this out, and locals report that they often

560
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 2: see her walking. Was a handsome young man who must

561
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: be her son.

562
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: Uh huh, it's itpoly, It's always her lover. Yeah, yeah uh.

563
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 2: Napoleon decided to even the score by having an affair

564
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: with a young soldier's wife named Pauline, who had accompanied

565
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 2: her husband to Egypt. He had no idea how to

566
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: initiate this affair because he was the least terming personal life,

567
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: so he just did his thing where he stared at

568
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: her for the entire hot air balloon launch they were attending.

569
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: Pauline said, and she's like, look at that hot air balloon,

570
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: it's coming up that way.

571
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: Bauleen said that this made her intensely uncomfortable. Then Napoleon

572
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: sent an eight of his to describe that he wanted

573
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: to have sex with her. She said no and that

574
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: she was married, and this made her again very uncomfortable.

575
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: Then he sent her a diamond bracelet, and she relented immediately.

576
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, It's like okay, enough is enough? So I

577
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: so spassed. Forwarding a little bit, Why does Napoleon ultimately

578
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: forgive Josephine.

579
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: So Napoleon returns to Paris. Josephine has been waiting for him.

580
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 2: Unfortunately she's at another house. When he returns, Napoleon ands devastated,

581
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 2: finally finds her at the house she's at. She's sobbing hysterically,

582
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: and she sends her two children to go bang on

583
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: his door, and she has coached them to say, our

584
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: father is already did whilst we lose our second thought.

585
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: So she has her two sobbing children doing this. Then

586
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 2: she goes in. She has sex with Napoleon. The next morning,

587
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: he announces he's not going to get a divorce. It's

588
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: going to be fine. But Napoleon does continue to have

589
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: affairs throughout the rest of its marriage. He never again

590
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 2: indulges in the kind of single minded worship of Josephine.

591
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: I'll have an illegitimate child. He will have an illegitimate

592
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: child later. Now, shortly after this, if we jump ahead

593
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: a little bed, Napoleon stages Acuda over from the thro

594
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: the dar spoiler alert, Napoleon becomes emperor, crowns himself, bowns.

595
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 2: Josephine, Bross gets excelled to Brussels. He continues to write

596
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: Josephine constantly. Josephine never writes him back again. Nic What

597
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: did he ever do other than end the reign of

598
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: terror and try to have a democracy. Well, you can't

599
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: have orgies and bail Josephine out of every problem.

600
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: See for him. You can't be one of the main

601
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: guys when there's a new emperor. You got it, you know,

602
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: all right, dark lens one, the one truly lovely man

603
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: in this story. So Josephine and Napoleon moving to the

604
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: decrepit to Luis's palace. On the gates of that palace

605
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: hung a sign from the revolution that read, on the

606
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: tenth of August seventeen ninety two, royalty was abolished in

607
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: France and will never return. The first thing Napoleon did

608
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: was scrub away all revolutionary side. He said he did

609
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: not like to see that shit around, and he began

610
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: referring to Louis the sixteenth as the good Louis the sixteenth. Well,

611
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: I do think, I mean not to step on this

612
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: and to agree. I think that part of Napoleon's that

613
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: claim to power was re establishing the old, the bad Revolution,

614
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: the good power of France. And I mean, if you

615
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: think back, if you as a listener are sort of

616
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: imagining the imagery and architecture and fashion and furnish furnishings

617
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: that we associate with Napoleon, and it's very gilded, it's

618
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 1: very regal. It's like red velvet and it als.

619
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: At one point Josephine had a dress that was covered

620
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: entirely with real rose petals.

621
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: I she had a dress that was made entirely of

622
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: peacock feathers.

623
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: Josephine also bought nine hundred dresses a year, five times

624
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: more than Marie Antoinette ever bought.

625
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 1: I read a thing that she never wore the same

626
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: pair of stockings twice. Well, that's smart, I mean, they

627
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: really that makes sense. But also in her defense, I

628
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: think Napoleon maybe she went a little far, but I

629
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: think he was very much advocating for like, we have

630
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: to play this part. We took power by force, so

631
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: we have to present power.

632
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: They brought back people to talk about how everything used

633
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,480
Speaker 2: to be done at the court so they could try

634
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 2: to mimic it. Now, Josephine was never comfortable was this.

635
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 2: She was sleeping in Marie Antoinette's chambers and she claimed

636
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: that she could hear the Queen's ghost asking her what

637
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 2: she was doing in her bed.

638
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: So creepy.

639
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: I love it.

640
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: Also, around this time, Napoleon declared that French women needed

641
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: to learn obedience, so he rolled back women's rights enormously.

642
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 1: Husbands could now imprison their wise for infidelity. Also, and

643
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: unrelated to the sexism aspect of this, I just want

644
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: to remind people that Napoleon and France is the only

645
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: country in history to ever reinstates like great yep.

646
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: People thought it was because of Josephine's influence, because she

647
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: grew up on a plantation and she sure was comfortable.

648
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: I mean I also think it was partly because Napoleon.

649
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 1: I mean, they just needed like them. I don't think

650
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: he cared about the revolutionary ideals. I think he was

651
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: driven by like cold economic prospects, absolute lust for power,

652
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: power and money. Yeah, so that's not good. Yeah.

653
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 2: Madame de Stelle, who adored Napoleon at the beginning of

654
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: his reign, and wrote in letters saying that she should

655
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 2: be his mistress rather than this insignificant woman Josephine, which

656
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 2: Napoleon was very uninterested and he despised intellectual women.

657
00:36:57,760 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 1: Really. Oh yes, yeah uh.

658
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 2: Her move with men was to ask them who their

659
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: favorite woman in history was, so I have a lively

660
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: conversation with them.

661
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: My favorite Madame de Stele quote that I feel like

662
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: I come back to a lot is and I'm paraphrasing,

663
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: but the one must in life choose between boredom and suffering.

664
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: That's very depressed, I know. And as to adult what

665
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 1: am I called it? Contentment? Contentment is better than boredon.

666
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: But isn't that just like very insightful?

667
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 3: Yes?

668
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, she was a very insightful woman who when she

669
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 1: asked Napoleon that had human reply, whichever woman bore the

670
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: most children? Madame de still you shortly after this going

671
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 1: up to flee the country. The censorship put that heads

672
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: so horrified. But Pompadour is back in full force. The

673
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: Marquis de Sade is imprisoned shortly after the publishing of

674
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: juliet which we have an episode on you doing an

675
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: episode on Juliette. No, you're doing Justine Angeliat. We've done

676
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: the Marquis de Sade, so if you are a listener,

677
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: you know all about the Marquis Decoud's imprisonment and his

678
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: long suffering wife got his poor wife. You read much?

679
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: Merchi De said, not on purpose. I read some for

680
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: that episode and I was I literally, I think I

681
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: said in the episode. I was like, I'm not quoting

682
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: any of this. I'm not recommending it. I don't find

683
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: it pleasant. I think it's like a the equivalent of

684
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: like a shock comic. It's a shot comic. I actually

685
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 1: loved Juliet as a proto feminist piece about who comes

686
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: out on top. But it's pornography. It's nothing I would

687
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: recommend any any esteemed listeners of this show.

688
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: But this is basically the end of female intellectuals in France,

689
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: where Louis the fifteenth had consulted with Madame Pompadour all

690
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: through the seven years, or what Napoleon liked was for

691
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: Josephine to sit in front of him in total silence

692
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: while he thought about military matters.

693
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 1: She was a gilded statue.

694
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: She was a beautiful statue for him, and at the coronation,

695
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 2: Napoleon obviously oh, the Catholic Church is back too. Oh yeah,

696
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: we've rolled back everything the Revolution tried to accomplish. So

697
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 2: the Pope is there for Napoleon's coronation. But Napoleon crowns himself,

698
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: we assume all listeners know, and he also crowns Josephine.

699
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: And one of my small comforts of this is that

700
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 2: there was one spectator the coronation that saw Josephine walking

701
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 2: down the aisle in her finery and said, oh, look

702
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: there's barasis whore. Oh sorry, I don't love Josephine that much.

703
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:41,160
Speaker 1: No, she's not interesting, but she's also not I think

704
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: the important thing about history is you don't have to

705
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: like everyone any feel the fierce loyalty to her, but

706
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: I do to some female historical figures. I think she

707
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: is an amazing survivor. Well, to fast forward again a

708
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: little bit, Obviously, Josephine probably in part thanks to her

709
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: age and also the toxic makeup she was wearing, and

710
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: also the fact that she had been using contracept contraceptive

711
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: douches for years and she had broken her pelvis. So

712
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: for all of these factors combine, and she can't bear children.

713
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 1: She can't bear Napoleon in air, and so reluctantly they divorce.

714
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 2: They divorce. She Napoleon Mary's nineteen year old Marie Louise

715
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: in eighteen ten. They're nice Catholic princess, a nice Catholic princess.

716
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: The first meeting was arranged at the Chateau de Compienne,

717
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: where Louis the sixteens met Marie Antoinette for the first time.

718
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: Like Marie Antoinette, Marie Louise had to because he really

719
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: just wants to be Louis the sixteenth at this point

720
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: had to get rid of all of her French clothing

721
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: before Austrian Austrian clothing before crossing.

722
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: Into France, and she had to get rid of her dog,

723
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: just like Marie Antoinette. And she hated this and was

724
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: mad about it.

725
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: And as soon as Napoleon was exiled to Elbas, she

726
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: never wrote him again. I went off Garla. She's like,

727
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: this isn't my bargain. She did her job, she gave

728
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: him a son.

729
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Josephine retires to Malmaison, her house. She is given

730
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 2: an allowance of three million francs as well as four

731
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: thousand dollars to go exclusively to her garden. Now, Josephine

732
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: got really into plants at one point. It's one of

733
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 2: her main accomplishments. She introdusing the concept of English gardens

734
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: to Versailles and malnabels On became an incredibly beautiful home.

735
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 2: Her granddaughter recalls wandering around eating sugarcane on a rounds,

736
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 2: just like a nice grandmother. But Josephine was inconsolable. She

737
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,919
Speaker 2: said that sometimes it seems as though I am dead

738
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 2: and that all that is left is a faint sensation

739
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: of knowing that I no longer exists.

740
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, imagine feeling. I mean it's literally redundancy,

741
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: but it's the moment. It's like if you get laid

742
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: off and they're like it's not personal, but it's like

743
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 1: it's the most personal thing of her. All I done and.

744
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 2: Eighties a crippling redundance, I think because she was not valued.

745
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: And again we're coming back to Pompadoor. Pandadar also has

746
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: to stop being the king's mistress, but her retirement was

747
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: getting to still retirement is instead of having sex nine

748
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: times a day, I'm just gonna talk about politics and

749
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: all of the enlightened mind writers are going to come

750
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 2: and read me their drafts and I'll.

751
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: Give them advice. I mean, that's the horrible thing where

752
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: it's like, if you're a woman and your only value

753
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 1: is child bearing or being sexually attractive, then you go

754
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:30,879
Speaker 1: to jobulate out.

755
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 2: And Josephine was still seen as a treasure to some

756
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 2: of the Allies. The Czar of Russia came to visit

757
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 2: her at Malmaison frequently, and but she was never happy again.

758
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: Josephine's overriding emotions seems to be despair at this point

759
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: in her life, and in eighteen fourteen, she caught a

760
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: cold and lapsed into a delirium. Supposedly she could be

761
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: heard muttering Napoleon Elba, King of Rome. Just before she died,

762
00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: she insisted on being dressed in her pink sat morning

763
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: gown and rubies in case anyone important came in to

764
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: visit Ah, and she likely died pneumonia, though her maid

765
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 2: said that she died of grief at the age of

766
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: fifty one.

767
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: Fifty one very young. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of

768
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: this tragic life. And I'm so glad you brought up

769
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: Madame de Pompadour in comparison. Well, I think it is

770
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: such an interesting commentary on the revolution that they did

771
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: it and now everything is the same, but everything is worse.

772
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: And I think that when people view Napoleon and Josephine

773
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: as this like great romance, like, I think it's it's

774
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: a false image. I don't even think it works well

775
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: in the movie. Now.

776
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 2: I think you can take so many creative liberties when

777
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,879
Speaker 2: you're making a movie. But I also think I think

778
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:44,919
Speaker 2: a lot about the fact that these people didn't read.

779
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: And I think one thing that does come out of

780
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 2: reading a great deal, at least hopefully, is a kind

781
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 2: of healthy self awareness and a sense of humor above yourself.

782
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: And Josephina and Napoleon had absolutely no senses of humor.

783
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: Very is here. Yeah, they were deeply serious people, I

784
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 1: do think in terms of a noble Blood epilogue. The

785
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: one weird detail about her life that I always find

786
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: sort of morbidly fascinating is that when she felt her

787
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: position with Napoleon slipping a little, she had her daughter

788
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,360
Speaker 1: Hortense marry Napoleon's brother Louis, who she hated. It's just

789
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 1: everybody agreed. Louis was all, yeah, that's exactly why people

790
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: needed Napoleon to divorce Josephine because we're like, we can't

791
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: have the power going to his awful brother exactly. Nobody

792
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: wanted Louis to be emperor, so like imagine Napoleon's stepdaughter

793
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: then becoming his sister in law. It's just wild.

794
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of inter family marriage at

795
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 2: this point, just in some desperate attempt to preserve power,

796
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: even with Josephine. Oh but.

797
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I.

798
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 2: Feel the impressive Josephine was able to survive at all.

799
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that she was able to use

800
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 2: her sexuality in that way, and that her sexuality was

801
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 2: a thing that was very much created and not innate

802
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 2: to her. She was not born incredibly beautiful the way

803
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 2: we hear about some of the powerful women from this period.

804
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: Were, and.

805
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: That's you know, that's obviously something that is worthy of

806
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 2: respect and such a survival tool, and that's very very interesting.

807
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 2: I think because Napoleon hated intellectual women, it's a little

808
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: unsatisfying to try to look at more of Josephine's accomplishments.

809
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,240
Speaker 2: But I could also be wrong. As Ridley Scott said,

810
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: were you there, then you don't fucking know.

811
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: I was not there. And I am sure there are

812
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 1: scholars of Josephine who would uh set me.

813
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 2: Set me to rights, and tell me that she had

814
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 2: a fascinating and rich inner life. He just wasn't as

815
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: evident as it might have been with some other historical women.

816
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 2: And one theme that I've found always so fascinating in

817
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: Noble Blood is this stark juxtaposition, this like tragic juxtaposition

818
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: I've found between incredible glamour, like these people spending exorbitant

819
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: amount of money, spent eight hundred dollars a year on

820
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 2: eight hundred francs a year on perfume when the average

821
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: Parisian families income was six hundred francs.

822
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: So this just like extraordinary glamour in concert with these

823
00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 1: tragic mechanisms and feeling trapped. I just find it very interesting.

824
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: Is this reinforcing idea where it's like it's a cliche

825
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 1: that money doesn't buy you happiness and power doesn't buy

826
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 1: you happiness. But it's like I think we as audience

827
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: members and podcast listeners and writers are drawn to power

828
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 1: and money and glamour, and then all the more interesting

829
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: when there's this like deeply tragic undercurrent to it. It

830
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: is a deeply tragic under curid. Yeah, no, we see her.

831
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 3: Look.

832
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 2: I think, at least by the standards of the time,

833
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,439
Speaker 2: Josephine could count herself as someone who was deeply loved. Yeah,

834
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 2: she obviously ended this a millionaire many many times over.

835
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 2: She had a very beautiful home, and she had two

836
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 2: children who seemed very devoted to her. This isn't a

837
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 2: tragic story. It's just a story about the limitations that

838
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 2: were placed on women at that time, which to me

839
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 2: do feel especially tragic if you believe that the revolution

840
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 2: was supposed to create some kind of a quality.

841
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 1: I think that is a beautiful note to end on, Jennifer,

842
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: Where can the good people find you?

843
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 4: Oh?

844
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: They should find me on threads because I don't so well,

845
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,240
Speaker 1: No one should. Nobody should. It's Jen Ashley Wright on Threads,

846
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: of course, pund oh as. My most recent book is

847
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 1: Madame Ristelle, a History of New York's most fabulous, fearless,

848
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:00,959
Speaker 1: and infamous abortionists and you can let it perver book

849
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: sourceld fantastic, Thank you so much, thank you. Noble Blood

850
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeart Radio and Grim and Mild

851
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 1: from Aaron mank. Noble Blood is created and hosted by

852
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: me Dana Schwartz, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston,

853
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: Hannah Zwick, Mira Hayward, Courtney Sender, and Lori Goodman. The

854
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Noemi Griffin and rima

855
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: Il Kahali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers

856
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: Aaron Manke, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts

857
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

858
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.