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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.

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Speaker 1: Never told you your production of iHeartRadio. Okay, Annie, before

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Speaker 1: we even start, I'm gonna go ahead and ask a

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Speaker 1: big question because I know we've talked about our religious

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Speaker 1: experiences before, but just kind of a reminder so we

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Speaker 1: can kind of get on the same page before we

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Speaker 1: start these episodes. And I said multiple by the way,

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Speaker 1: were you super religious growing up? I went through I

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Speaker 1: would say a two year phase where I was very

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Speaker 1: very religious, like donated my allowance money to the church.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about this because we have been planning

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Speaker 1: these episodes for a while and here they are perfect timing,

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Speaker 1: and they are they are a couple of them coming.

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Speaker 1: But I was thinking about, like why why that is?

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Speaker 1: And I think it's because I got kind of called

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Speaker 1: out and embarrassed in front of all my classmates when

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Speaker 1: I was younger because I didn't know what Christianity was. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I like I went to church. I think I just

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Speaker 1: didn't put together. So somebody asked me if I was

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Speaker 1: Christian and I like froze up in front of everybody,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I don't know. And then

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Speaker 1: that was such a sin in small town Georgia, right, like,

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Speaker 1: oh god, she's not a Christian. So it was around

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Speaker 1: that time I really became very very religious. I volunteered,

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Speaker 1: I gave all my money and went to all the classes.

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Speaker 1: But I think it only lasted two years. I did

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Speaker 1: go until about eighth grade. I went to church, but

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Speaker 1: then in eighth grade I stopped going and never really

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Speaker 1: went back. Okay, we'll talk about that more. Yeah, we will.

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Speaker 1: But your family wasn't religious either, right, not really. They

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Speaker 1: became more religious after I moved out, actually, and as

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Speaker 1: they got older, but as kids, I think we weren't

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Speaker 1: super interested in it and it was just kind of

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Speaker 1: a time suck for them. And I know how this sounds,

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Speaker 1: but I think I honestly, I think they were just

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Speaker 1: kind of tired and we weren't into it. So they're like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, we did the thing, right, let's just

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Speaker 1: stop now. So we stopped going to church regularly when

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Speaker 1: I was in middle school. Okay, did you were you

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Speaker 1: the holiday church types? Oh? Yes, yes, we went. We

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Speaker 1: went in the holidays, and I wasn't a couple of

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Speaker 1: the holiday plays o y, of course. But that was

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Speaker 1: more my excitement about like wearing pajamas and getting to act.

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Speaker 1: That's fair, That is fair. Yeah. I grew up, as

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Speaker 1: we've talked about before, in a very super religious family.

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Speaker 1: They are still very very religious, to the point that

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Speaker 1: from my beginning in the in the United States, in Korea,

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Speaker 1: I did have missionaries visit my orphanage. I remember this distinctly,

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Speaker 1: so Westernized Christianity was a part of my past. So

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Speaker 1: I have memories of that, and I remember these Christian

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Speaker 1: people coming with guitars and singing to us. I remember

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Speaker 1: this very clearly. But they were Asian, they were not

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Speaker 1: from a different country. But of course, you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a whole other thing. But I also remember doing Buddhist

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Speaker 1: practices and ancestral practices because we would definitely do the

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Speaker 1: whole respect of the elders, bowing to the elders, making

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Speaker 1: sure that we were doing all these things. So I

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Speaker 1: remember these things pretty clearly from my time as an adolescent.

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Speaker 1: So I came here when I was sevenish to the US.

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Speaker 1: After that I became a staunch Christian, and I hesitay

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Speaker 1: say the word Christian, because even at that point in time,

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Speaker 1: at the church that I had gone to, they do

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Speaker 1: not think theology and getting education like that it's beneficial,

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Speaker 1: and that they believed that to do this, to learn

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Speaker 1: too much takes away from the faith part. It was

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Speaker 1: not holy Spirit, it was holy ghost. They did communion

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Speaker 1: with wine that they made themselves. They made unleavened bread themselves.

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Speaker 1: There was a foot washing every year, a revival every year.

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Speaker 1: If you were a pastor, it was because you were

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Speaker 1: called to be like you literally had the spirit moved

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Speaker 1: in you and you were told by Jesus that you

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Speaker 1: were to speak the word of God. It was the

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Speaker 1: ultimate gift. It wasn't because you went to get an

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Speaker 1: education for it. That was almost blasphemous according to what

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Speaker 1: I was raised by. They don't like other denominations, and

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Speaker 1: that includes Methodists, that includes this sothern Baptist, definitely, no Catholics.

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Speaker 1: It is a whole different world. I don't even really

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Speaker 1: know what the denomination that I grew up in was.

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Speaker 1: I've heard a primitive Baptist as part of it. I've

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Speaker 1: also heard the term, and this could be just like

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Speaker 1: a a nickname for it, foot washing Baptist. We were

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Speaker 1: not quite Pentecostals. And when I say Pentecostal, I meant

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Speaker 1: I mean the kind that believe in tongues and all that.

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Speaker 1: We did have pianos, so they did believe in instruments

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Speaker 1: and music like that. Because you know, the several churches

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Speaker 1: that I knew in my small town did not have instruments.

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Speaker 1: They thought that was blasphemous as well. Whole different thing.

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Speaker 1: So I'll talk a little more about my experience, but

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Speaker 1: that's what I grew up in. So believing in God,

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Speaker 1: in Jesus was a no brainer. Like I was told,

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Speaker 1: the reason I was in the US, the reason I

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Speaker 1: was alive, point blank, was because I was saved by

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Speaker 1: Jesus and God, and so therefore my life is dedicated

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Speaker 1: to that purpose. So growing up, that's exactly what I believed.

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Speaker 1: I believed that I was supposed to be a missionary.

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Speaker 1: In the freshman year of college, I actually took off

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Speaker 1: for a full year to go work in Oklahoma at

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Speaker 1: a group home who actually specializes with Native and Indigenous people.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sorry to that community. I knew what I

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Speaker 1: knew now, everything I did was with good intent, and

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Speaker 1: I believe that for most people who are Christians and

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Speaker 1: who do believe in this idea of missionary and saving

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Speaker 1: people like that's that's the idea. So I don't I

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Speaker 1: can't get mad at that, but looking back at it now,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh man, that's really damaging and I

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Speaker 1: really regret that part of my life. So I did

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Speaker 1: all of this, and it wasn't until I left college

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Speaker 1: and kind of worked in the real world and then

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Speaker 1: my own personality did not mesh with what the church,

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Speaker 1: what I was told by the church, and I'm saying

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Speaker 1: capital C church, and that's how we probably gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about it throughout this episode. That's like until I

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Speaker 1: walked away that I was like, this doesn't this doesn't work,

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Speaker 1: this is not this doesn't make sense. And then of

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Speaker 1: course I think we're going to talk more about the

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Speaker 1: fact that this is more common, even though it feels

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Speaker 1: so isolating when you go through these things. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: had that moment, and I can tell you almost exactly when,

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Speaker 1: like I can remember what like what was happening and

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Speaker 1: things that were happening and as it was unraveling for

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Speaker 1: me essentially of what that looked like. But I still

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Speaker 1: have small faith in things I don't know. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: call it necessarily Christianity and God and all of that,

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Speaker 1: but there is a bit of me that still believes

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Speaker 1: in not necessarily we're not going to talk about manifest destiny,

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Speaker 1: but along the lines of, like, it's not always just coincidence. Again,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what that looks like to me necessarily,

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Speaker 1: and it's hard to let go of like severn times,

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Speaker 1: like when I get into a situation, I automatically like

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Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily go into prayer, but it's kind of

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Speaker 1: that level of meditation of like please help me, please

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Speaker 1: help me, don't let me die, type of conversations in

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Speaker 1: my head. Right, But yeah, it's a whole thing. And

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Speaker 1: of course these conversations like this you've had, You and

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Speaker 1: I have had this so many times. I think I

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Speaker 1: have it with all of my friends. We just have

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Speaker 1: a whole breakdown of this conversation. Is why we're talking

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Speaker 1: about this today. There is a point I swear to

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Speaker 1: God and yeah, we're going on this journey on this

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Speaker 1: Good Friday you celebrate It is April seventh, twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: Good Friday, twenty twenty three. We're talking about I guess

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Speaker 1: westernized Christianity and the marginalized people. And it is more

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Speaker 1: than one episode because there's a lot to it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and before we start, I probably should have said, because

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Speaker 1: for some of ye all do my comments, we're probably

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Speaker 1: traumatizing and I'm so sorry. Content warning. We are going

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Speaker 1: to be exploring Western Christianity, and I say Western Christianity obviously,

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Speaker 1: we're focusing more on what is happening in the United

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Speaker 1: States in America and those who have these types of

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Speaker 1: Christian beliefs here which are which are different, obviously, and

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Speaker 1: we want to talk about how this has caused trauma

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Speaker 1: for a lot for women and for the marginalized community

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Speaker 1: as a whole. Yeah, and like I said, like we said,

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Speaker 1: we've been dancing around this topic. But y'all this research,

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Speaker 1: we've been working on this for three months. In our

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Speaker 1: contributor Joey, Thank you so much, Joey. It has done

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Speaker 1: so much research for us, literally found probably what seventy

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Speaker 1: five different references, and then we're on top of that.

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Speaker 1: As we went along trying to pull out as much

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Speaker 1: information as we can. There's articles upon articles, and trying

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Speaker 1: to narrow down the information itself was hard, and of

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Speaker 1: course there's lots of lots of opinions on the matter,

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Speaker 1: and we're trying to not be so opinionated as much

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Speaker 1: as we are looking at the statistics, it's kind of

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Speaker 1: hard because as it is personal for us. I guess

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Speaker 1: that's the other Yeah, learning for it. And again, yes,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about religion trauma as a side note, we

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Speaker 1: want to say right at the beginning, we're not trying

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Speaker 1: to disparage or say that religion and spirituality is wrong

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Speaker 1: in any way. Like I said, I still believe I

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Speaker 1: am spiritual. There are things that I will still it's

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Speaker 1: hard for me to get away from, and faith is

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Speaker 1: powerful and being connected to spirituality can be powerful and

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Speaker 1: can be really life saving. I really think that. I

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Speaker 1: think part of what I went through growing up, if

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Speaker 1: it had not been for the faith, the practices that

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Speaker 1: I went through, I would have been in much more

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Speaker 1: dire situations. I will say that. And what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about specifically, I guess we're building up to and having

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Speaker 1: a conversation of what is happening in the US today,

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Speaker 1: what it looks like when we talk about the movement

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Speaker 1: of deconstruction. We're going to explain what that is a

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Speaker 1: little bit and then talk about it more in another episode,

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Speaker 1: as well as how our country looks like it's going

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Speaker 1: towards a Christian nationalist government, and we want to talk

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Speaker 1: about why this should be a cautionary tale for us

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Speaker 1: and that we need to be aware and educated on

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Speaker 1: that subject. So with all of that, let's begin, yea,

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Speaker 1: So let us do it, and let us start with

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Speaker 1: an overview and history of Western religion, because as you said, yes,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be focusing more so on Westernized Christianity

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Speaker 1: and the evolution of what it is today and how

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Speaker 1: that affects the marginalized communities. So we aren't necessarily doing

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Speaker 1: a Bible lesson, which I did go to less How

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Speaker 1: about that you're gonna one up me throughout this. I

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Speaker 1: feel we are not talking theology, although theology does play

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Speaker 1: a lot into today's societal views on gender and reality roles,

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Speaker 1: which we do talk about throughout these episodes. We have

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Speaker 1: several episodes related to this where we've talked about it

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Speaker 1: as well. But let us start with some facts and statistics. So,

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Speaker 1: religion is a large part of humanity. It shapes beliefs,

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Speaker 1: it shapes values, it shapes behaviors. It plays a crucial

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Speaker 1: role in developing an individual's perspectives towards life, society, and

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Speaker 1: the world around them. However, studies suggest that there are

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Speaker 1: significant gender differences in religious beliefs and practices. So, for example,

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Speaker 1: American women are more likely than men to say that

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Speaker 1: religion is quote very important in their lives. According to

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Speaker 1: a survey conducted by Pew Research Center, sixty percent of

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Speaker 1: women in the US say that religion is very important

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Speaker 1: to them, compared to forty seven percent of men. Right,

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Speaker 1: And the numbers actually higher than that. Again, so some

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Speaker 1: of these research surveys came from twenty sixteen, twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty, so we've tried to pick from h one.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the bigger ones that happened, I

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Speaker 1: believe in twenty eighteen, and it was saying that sixty

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Speaker 1: percent is highly very important. There is also I think

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Speaker 1: another twenty percent, So even say eighty percent of women

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Speaker 1: in that point timeframe would say it was moderately important,

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Speaker 1: So it's pretty high. The numbers are high. So on

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Speaker 1: the same lines, American women are more likely to pray

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Speaker 1: daily than American men. In the same survey, it showed

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Speaker 1: that sixty four percent of women in the US pray

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Speaker 1: daily versus the forty seven percent of men. And American

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Speaker 1: women are also more likely to attend religious services, with

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Speaker 1: around forty percent of women in the US attending weekly,

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Speaker 1: while only thirty two percent of men attend. And if

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Speaker 1: we take the numbers down by race, the studies show

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Speaker 1: that the Black community are more likely to pray daily

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Speaker 1: with forty seven percent, followed by the Latino community at

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Speaker 1: thirty nine percent. And the Black and Latino communities are

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Speaker 1: also more likely to attend a religious service on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis, though I had to recheck that number. I

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Speaker 1: was daily wow. Okay, daily wow. But for the weekly basis,

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Speaker 1: the Latino community comes first with seventeen percent likely to attend,

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Speaker 1: while the White community comes at sixteen percent, the Asian

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Speaker 1: community at fourteen percent, and the Black community at thirteen percent.

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Speaker 1: So these number numbers are kind of varied. But it's

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Speaker 1: also noted in the A Gallop Pole from twenty seventeen

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Speaker 1: that the Black community are most likely to identify as religious,

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Speaker 1: with more than a two percent on that pole. Wow. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And within the queer community, religion is still important. I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about this the other day with our book

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Speaker 1: teamed with Glenn and Doyle. There was that whole passage

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Speaker 1: about that almost half of the queer population that was

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Speaker 1: surveyed for the Gallop Pole showed that religion still is

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Speaker 1: considered a big part of their lives, that many still

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Speaker 1: believe in God, they still attend religious services and pray regularly.

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Speaker 1: The surveys showed at least forty seven percent as moderately

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Speaker 1: or highly religious, while fifty three percent stated that they

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Speaker 1: were not. However, those numbers have changed based on age

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Speaker 1: and generation, with only thirty four percent of the eighteen

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Speaker 1: to twenty four year olds being for it versus fifty

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Speaker 1: six percent for fifty to sixty four year olds, So

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Speaker 1: that's a pretty big difference. And within those statistics, the

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Speaker 1: most religious in the queer community was the Black community,

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Speaker 1: who for over seventy percent of those surveyed said that

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Speaker 1: yes religious. But that is twelve percent less than the

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Speaker 1: general population, and we will get into that a bit

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Speaker 1: more later, but yes, the numbers seem to be going down,

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Speaker 1: and as the current state of affairs have brought about

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Speaker 1: the same significant and dangerous changes within the community, many

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Speaker 1: continue to leave their religious ideology and the bias is

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Speaker 1: shown against the LGBTQ plus community hasn't just insumus the

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Speaker 1: queer community, but those who would consider themselves as allies

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Speaker 1: for sure, and outside of the US there are similar

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Speaker 1: studies to justing the same thing. A study in Europe

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Speaker 1: showed that women were also more likely to pray, attend services,

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Speaker 1: and believe in God as compared to men, and similar

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Speaker 1: studies showed the same thing for women in the Middle

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Speaker 1: East and South Asia too. Right, so the overall history

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Speaker 1: of religion is complicated. We know this. Christianity was often

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Speaker 1: an excuse of colonialization all over the world with an

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Speaker 1: intent to conquer and rule, and the spread of Christianity

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Speaker 1: was quick and widespread. Today, the topic of colonization and

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Speaker 1: religion is a hot controversial issue, often causing defensiveness and disagreements,

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Speaker 1: and it's still an issue when we talk about missionaries

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Speaker 1: and current state of churches sending out people out in

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Speaker 1: the world. But before we go there, we do want

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Speaker 1: to talk about is there a reason why the marginalized community,

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Speaker 1: specifically women, are more likely to be religious? And to

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Speaker 1: be honest, the answer is not really, but there are

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Speaker 1: some possible theories based on some of the research and surveys.

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Speaker 1: In a twenty sixteen Pew Research study titled the Gender

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Speaker 1: Gap in Religion around the World, they write based on

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Speaker 1: these wide ranging and comprehensive data sets, so we just

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Speaker 1: kind of talked about that. The study finds that globally,

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Speaker 1: women are more devout than men by several standard measures

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Speaker 1: of religious commitment, but the study also reveals a more

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Speaker 1: complex relationship between religion and gender than has been commonly assumed.

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Speaker 1: While women generally are more religious, men display higher levels

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Speaker 1: of religious commitment in some countries and religious groups. So

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Speaker 1: just to kind of ask more contexts, we're not talking

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Speaker 1: much about the Muslim community. We're not talking about the

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Speaker 1: Jewish community as much, which we should. We will try

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Speaker 1: to come back to, but we're not necessarily focusing on that.

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Speaker 1: But what we do see in that as well as Buddhism,

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Speaker 1: there is a higher number of men committed to those

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Speaker 1: types of religions. So that's what we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: and in other contexts. There are few, if any discernable

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Speaker 1: gender differences and religion. So just a reminder, yes, and

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Speaker 1: something to note from the same twenty sixteen Pew research

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Speaker 1: on the gender gap of religiousness, US Christians differ from

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Speaker 1: other countries. So here's a quote from the report. Men

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Speaker 1: and women in the United States differ from each other

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Speaker 1: in their levels of religious commitment to a greater extent

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Speaker 1: than men and women differ in other economically advanced countries

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Speaker 1: for which data are available, including Canada and the United Kingdom.

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Speaker 1: While American men generally display less religious commitment than American women,

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Speaker 1: both genders are more religious than men and women in

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Speaker 1: other economically advanced countries, and with that information, the same

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Speaker 1: report shows the variation around the world. It goes on

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Speaker 1: to say the gender gap among Christians, as well as

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Speaker 1: some gender differences in other faith traditions, vary in size

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Speaker 1: and different regions of the world. This suggests that while

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Speaker 1: gender differences in religious commitment may be driven in part

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Speaker 1: by the teachings of a particular religion, they also may

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Speaker 1: reflect national habits or cultural views intrinsic to a particular

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Speaker 1: part of the world. Right So, in that research, they

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Speaker 1: suggest that socioeconomic status as well as working a job

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Speaker 1: outside the home could play a factor. Here's an interesting

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Speaker 1: quote from that article. Women who participate in the labor

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Speaker 1: force tend to show lower levels of religious commitment than

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Speaker 1: women who do not work outside of the home for pay.

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Speaker 1: As a result, when these two groups of women are

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Speaker 1: compared with men, most of whom are in the labor force,

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Speaker 1: the gender gaps differ. Indeed, Pew Research Centers analysis finds

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Speaker 1: the gap between women who are in the labor force

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Speaker 1: and men tend to be smaller than the gap between

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Speaker 1: women who are not in the labor force and men.

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Speaker 1: This pattern holds even after accounting for other factors. They

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Speaker 1: are also associated with religious commitments such as education level, age,

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Speaker 1: and mental status. Moreover, further analysis show that across predominantly

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Speaker 1: Christian countries, the overall gender gaps and daily prayer and

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Speaker 1: importance of religion are smaller in countries where more are

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Speaker 1: in the labor force, which makes us wonder if perhaps

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Speaker 1: this is a link between the oppressive system that uses religion,

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Speaker 1: specifically a patriarchal ideology to key control the supremacy, you know,

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Speaker 1: by taking away financial independence. But we'll talk a bit

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Speaker 1: more about that later. In another Pew article, they interviewed

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Speaker 1: a demographer and sociologists from the University College London, David Voas.

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Speaker 1: I hope I'm not butchering that on the gender gap,

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Speaker 1: and his opinion is maybe that it's just quote biological basis,

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Speaker 1: and here is a full quote from the interview. Personally,

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Speaker 1: I'm tempted to give the classic academic response that more

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Speaker 1: research is needed, at the risk of seeming wishywashye, I

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Speaker 1: suspect that nature and nurture both play a part. Boys

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Speaker 1: and girls are socialized differently, and men and women are

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Speaker 1: still channeled into different roles when we look at the

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Speaker 1: psychology of individual differences, though particularly in personality, it's not

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Speaker 1: easy to attribute gender gaps in their entirety to social forces.

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Speaker 1: And then he goes on to explain, I'm not an

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Speaker 1: expert in genetics, but there appears to be some fairly

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Speaker 1: compelling evidence, for example, from studies of twins, that genes

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Speaker 1: do affect our disposition to be religious. And if that's

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Speaker 1: the case, it's at least pausible that the gender gap

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Speaker 1: in religiosity is partly a matter of biology. If true,

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Speaker 1: though I doubt that it's because there's a god gene

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Speaker 1: and women are more likely to have it than men.

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Speaker 1: It seems easier to believe that physiological or hormonal differences

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Speaker 1: could influence personality, which may in turn be linked to

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Speaker 1: variations in spirituality or religious thinking. Yes, he had a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of opinions, but again, I mean, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about those, but like they don't do. It's

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Speaker 1: harder resource heathining these things. I think, yeah, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of how we talked about other like metaphysical type of

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Speaker 1: type of conversations. It's harder to get those, you know,

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Speaker 1: wise in an article written by doctor Angelo, but tone,

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. I'm so sorry for the Iron Institute,

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Speaker 1: doctor Batone. Rights scholars agree that the religious gender gap

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Speaker 1: is due to a confluence of multiple factors psychology, family environment,

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Speaker 1: social status, workforce participation, etc. But there's no consensus on

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Speaker 1: exactly which factors are more responsible for gender differences. So

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Speaker 1: there's a lot. There's a lot we don't know why.

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Speaker 1: There may be many things. It may be all about

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Speaker 1: faith and maybe a coincidence. Again, like me believing what

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Speaker 1: I believed was partly due to my circumstances and being

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Speaker 1: taught that. So the teachings of a particular creed might

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Speaker 1: make it more appealing to a woman rather than men.

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Speaker 1: But local traditions and habits also play a role. That

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Speaker 1: means that even within the same tradition Christianity, for instance,

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Speaker 1: there are significant differences in different parts of the world, which, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's absolutely true, because yeah, Christianity looks different everywhere.

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Speaker 1: I will say again what I remember in Korea, there

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Speaker 1: was a mixture of Buddhism with Christianity, and that's how

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Speaker 1: I learned, which is something that has been charted as

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Speaker 1: they continue to serve a different countries. Again, there's differences,

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Speaker 1: so we're not going to get a full picture. All

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Speaker 1: of these conversations are continued and will continue and probably

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Speaker 1: will change obviously as we continue in time, and the

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Speaker 1: information is still not conclusive. Honestly. Nope, And like our

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Speaker 1: past Monday many on women in superstition, there does seem

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Speaker 1: to be a more likely correlation of women in spirituality,

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Speaker 1: whether it's a level of intuition or protection. But once again,

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Speaker 1: always worth remembering data is typically sexist, with most of

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Speaker 1: the information coming from a very cis heteronormative, middle class group,

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Speaker 1: and how limited information can be when access is also limited.

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Speaker 1: It's just worth remembering. We'll probably put that in between

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Speaker 1: a lot of the things we say, because yes, especially

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Speaker 1: because as time changes, circumstances change. Yeah. M So, all right,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about statistics, We've talked about some theories of

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Speaker 1: the gender gap in religion, but let's talk specifically about

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Speaker 1: women in the capital c Church. And here we are

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Speaker 1: talking about, yes, that one, the Capital C Church as

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Speaker 1: an institution, and we are looking specifically, as you said,

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Speaker 1: at the United States as it pertains to Christianity. All right,

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Speaker 1: So the spread of Christianity is fairly dark. Unlike the

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Speaker 1: stories I was told growing up. Once again, it's very

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Speaker 1: much framed into worth saving people. And who doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to save people? If as a child, would I want

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Speaker 1: you to go to hell? No, so I want to

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Speaker 1: do my best to get you to heaven because that's

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Speaker 1: what I want for you. But conquering and converting were

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Speaker 1: two goals of the Eurocentric governments, as we talked about

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Speaker 1: in our past book club about the Judashoni nation. The

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Speaker 1: first nations had a more egalitarian system that was created

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Speaker 1: through the matriarchal line, but once a colonization began, the

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Speaker 1: Protestant ideals, which are set up through the patriarch think

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Speaker 1: of the father and the son, quickly took over. As

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Speaker 1: Katherine Brecas explains in her research titled Women and Religion

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Speaker 1: in Colonial North America and the United States, from the

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Speaker 1: seventeenth century until the present, women in these religious traditions

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Speaker 1: have differed in terms of their beliefs and practices. With

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Speaker 1: the exception of Native Americans, who seem to have enjoyed

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Speaker 1: relatively egalitarian gender roles before their European conquest, women have

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Speaker 1: shared similar experiences of subordination because of their gender. Once again, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you go back to our book club, we talk

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Speaker 1: about that pretty intrinsically. They talk about the fact that

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Speaker 1: they had never known any kind of equal playing from jump,

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Speaker 1: so seeing that was foreign to them, and that was

430
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: because of the native First Nations people showing them how

431
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: it could be anyway. And she references the Hebrew Bible

432
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 1: as to the lineage and the traditions. She writes all

433
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: of the major world religions are based on scriptural texts

434
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: that reflect the mail centered worldview of the times in

435
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: which they were written. In the Torah. For example, Genesis too,

436
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: it depicts Eve being formed out of Adam's rib, which

437
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: suggests that men were the norm and women secondary in creation.

438
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: Most of the main characters and the Hebrew Bible are men,

439
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: and the Biblical story revolves around patriarchs like Abraham, Jacob,

440
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: and David. According to the Hallaha, or Jewish law, men

441
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: and women have different religious obligations. Women must obey certain

442
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: rules of modesty, and she writes of the examples within

443
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: the New Testament as well. Quote The New Testament also

444
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: includes texts have emphasized women's subordination to men based on

445
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: the account in Genesis too. Many Christians have argued that

446
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: Eve's decision to eat the forbidden fruit in the garden

447
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: of Eden brought sin and suffering into the world. According

448
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: to this interpretation, God ordained women to submit to the

449
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: authority of their fathers and husbands because of Eve's disobedience.

450
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: Christians have also been influenced by several texts from the

451
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: Apostle Paul, including First Corinthians Chapter fourteen, verses thirty fourth

452
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 1: through thirty five. Let your women keep silence in the churches,

453
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: for it is not permitted unto them to speak, and

454
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: First Timothy Chapter two, verse twelve. I suffer not a

455
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,

456
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: but to be in silence. Throughout American history, many Christians,

457
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: both Catholic and Protestant, have used these texts to argue

458
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: that women cannot be ordained as priest or ministers. Until

459
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment in nineteen twenty, which

460
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: extended suffrage to women. Christians also used the Bible to

461
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: argue that women should not be allowed to vote or

462
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 1: to whole position a political authority. And before we get

463
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: too far into political references, it is understood that there

464
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 1: are different beliefs and interpretations of these texts and the

465
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: Bible as a whole, and many changes have happened through

466
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: the history of Protestant religions with different sects and denominations.

467
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: Same for other religions and beliefs as well, and we

468
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: are going to talk about that too, but for now

469
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: we are referencing the more traditional understanding of these verses. Now,

470
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk about my controversial view on

471
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 1: Paul slash Saul, because I have a lot. I have

472
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: a lot because I often argue, and I'm so sorry,

473
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:42,239
Speaker 1: just too many beliefs that Paul is actually outside of

474
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 1: the Hebrew slash Old Testament policy only one who really

475
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: speaks about homosexuality and women as leaders. Like, honestly, when

476
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: you look at the other acts, and I don't know

477
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: if the people would come at me. If you look

478
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: at the other prophets and or disciples, they talk a

479
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: lot about the charge as a whole, and they talk

480
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 1: about the church being women, so that is the wife,

481
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: so I find that interesting. Of course, they also say

482
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: then that's Jesus is the husband, and Jesus is the

483
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: one that leads the church. So that's a whole different conversation.

484
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: But women are still involved. So I have a lot

485
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: of thoughts. I'm not gonna put it here. I all

486
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: about to be noted, Okay, I have a lot of thoughts. Historically,

487
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: women have always outnumbered men and religious practices, and actually

488
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 1: they've tried to change the role of women within the community,

489
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: even way back when we talked about it again in

490
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: our book club with the holding as Joni women because

491
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: for a few of the leaders of the suffrag Jets,

492
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: we're fairly anti religious and we're going against the church,

493
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: and really felt like that was part of the problem

494
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: in taking away the rights of women. So I found

495
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: that interesting. I still fascinated by that, and I think

496
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: that's what we're talking about here when we see a

497
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: lot of changes. Of of course, we've got those who

498
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: went to the extreme, and we're gonna talk about that

499
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: right now. According to Breccas, at one point women were

500
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: able to have a hand in influencing Christianity by arguing

501
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: women were quote crucial guardians of religious and political virtue,

502
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: which still influences women women's roles within the Church and Christianity. Today,

503
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: we'll be talking a little bit more about the virtuous woman.

504
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: We've already had an episode about the Purity movement, and

505
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: we're going to come back and talk about it again

506
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: a little more in context of trauma. Again. I know

507
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: we already kind of talked about that, so y'all can

508
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: go back and hear what we said on that. But

509
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: this does have a big role that plays in it,

510
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: but at one point was taken as being more in

511
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: the front line slash leadership for the church. And then

512
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: within these movements they helped create a quote cult of domesticity,

513
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 1: which was a movement that quote again, this is all

514
00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: of her research enhance their authority within their families and

515
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: bregast rights. Before the Industrial Revolution and the growth of

516
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: a consumer economy, women played a central economic role in

517
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 1: the household, for example, spinning wool, churning butter, and sewing clothing,

518
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: but as the factory rather than the home, became the

519
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 1: center of production. In the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries,

520
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: women placed a new emphasis on their role as nurturers.

521
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: Instead of earning wages like men, women would provide a

522
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: haven from the cold and impersonal world of the factory

523
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 1: or the office. Again, we're seeing where these influences are

524
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: coming from, and this history extends even more with different

525
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: interpretations and understandings of the Bible and the role of

526
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: the Church, and different discoveries haven't made about the history

527
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: and about the role of women as well. Many of

528
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: those who identify as Christians do not agree with the

529
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: old traditions of women being completely submissive to their husbands

530
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: or to men at all, and feel that misinterpretation has

531
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: allowed for these types of misunderstandings of the Bible. As

532
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: the author of the Making of Biblical Womanhood, how the

533
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: subjugation of women became gospel truth, Beth Alison Barr, who

534
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: was also a historian, a Southern Baptist, and a pastor's wife,

535
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: actually told an NPR this in her interview while she

536
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: was publicizing this book. She said, the reason we think

537
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: women cannot be in authority is simply because we've taken

538
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: five or six verses from the New Testament, and we've

539
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: used those verses and read the entire Bible through them

540
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: through that lens, and they're mostly the Pauline verses women

541
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: be silent, women submit to your husband's etc. And if

542
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: we step away from those verses and actually put them

543
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: in context of what Paul was doing, and then put

544
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: that in context of the entire Bible, what we see

545
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: is that while patriarchy exists in the Bible, that God

546
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 1: is actually always fighting against patriarchy, that he's always raising

547
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: women out of it, He's always giving women authority in

548
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: surprising ways, both in the Old Testament and in the

549
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: New Testament, and that if we look at the historical

550
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 1: context of what Paul is actually doing a New Testament,

551
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: there are serious problems with reading Paul as telling women

552
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: that they have to be solid and under the authority

553
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 1: of men for all times. I feel like she agrees

554
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: with me, y'all. I think so. I think she agrees

555
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: with me again, strong opinions about this. I think we

556
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: should come back. I think we should talk about it.

557
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: She continues in that same interview. Conservative evangelicalism has been

558
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: teaching women for so long that there is only one

559
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: way to be a woman that makes us godly and

560
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: that allows us to follow Jesus and that one way

561
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: is to be focused on home and family and marriage.

562
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: So be free is me wanting women and men to

563
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 1: know that the limitations we have placed on them are

564
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: not God's limitations. There are limitations that we have placed

565
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 1: on them within our own human culture, and we can

566
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: see how they're constructed by human culture and that they

567
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: are not of God. So be free means be free

568
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: to be God has called you to be. Whatever that maybe.

569
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: And she's not the only one to see these differences

570
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: in the interpretation of the Bible. But much like anything

571
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: concerning reality or who has authority and supremacy, these opinions

572
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: are devices. Yea, yeah, I just kind of wanted to

573
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: go through some of my own experiences of what I've seen,

574
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,799
Speaker 1: because this is a prime example of what she is

575
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 1: talking about of what we were looking my children itself

576
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: takes out of context and how people wouldn't argue with

577
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: me what Paul has done, what Paul has said. They

578
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 1: use that as the authority because he wrote the Book

579
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 1: of Acts, he wrote all the different disciplines, and instead

580
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: kind of uses that as the ultimate authority over the

581
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 1: words of Jesus in itself, which if you ever read through.

582
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: And this is when we had this joke of in

583
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: the New Testament. Typically in the copies that we see

584
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: in the US, Jesus's words are written read purposefully, so

585
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 1: that's how you know he is never, at any point

586
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: in time ever come after people for sin, except for

587
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 1: those who are profiting off of other people. The only

588
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: time you see this man angry, and I say this

589
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: in that level, and again, I don't give a good

590
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: Bible lessons. I'm so sorry. That's the only times you

591
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: see him anger. He hangs out, like we hear this often.

592
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: He hangs out with prostitutes, he hangs out with women,

593
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: he hangs out with children. And I'm saying this in

594
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: such a relevant way, i feel like I'm teaching God.

595
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: This is Army back to college. But what we see

596
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: in these very controversial comments about what we think is

597
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: sin is literally the words of Paul, who never met

598
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: Jesus and who had actually when persecuted many of Jesus

599
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: the followers beforehand, literally killing people, killed many of them,

600
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: and out of the Old Testament, which is the Hebrew Bible,

601
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 1: which was never intended for anyone else, out of the

602
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: Jewish community, and even many of the people of the

603
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: Jewish community would say, this is not what you think

604
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 1: it is. You are taking this out of context because

605
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: Sodom and Gomorrah is often referenced as this is because

606
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,840
Speaker 1: they were all gay. Not true. They were actually raping

607
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: and beating and you know, blessing people in that community.

608
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: But hey, we're not looking at that alway, because we

609
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,959
Speaker 1: don't mind that if we look at what we're laws

610
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: were being passed. But in that level, my church heavily

611
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 1: believed in these same theories. As a woman, you were

612
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: not allowed to speak in church unless you're testifying. That

613
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: means the Holy Ghost has taken over you and that's

614
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: not you speaking. And y'all, I had those moments. I

615
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: actually had those most feeling like overwhelmed in joy or

616
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: like in a moment that like, I'm supposed to say

617
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: this thing out loud. This is going to affect people.

618
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 1: I really there's levels of like gospels and there's levels

619
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 1: of gifts to me. I thought I had discernment. I

620
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,439
Speaker 1: think I can read people, but that translated into something

621
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: else spiritually for me, and I got caught up in that.

622
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: In a long time, the belief is that you have

623
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: to pray for your sins and I'm literally sitting at

624
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: an altar crying until you feel okay and say Jesus

625
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 1: saved you. And it is an emotion and a feeling.

626
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 1: A lot of places, there's a lot of beliefs believe

627
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: that you are not saved until you're baptized. The church

628
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: I grew up in was not like that. The church

629
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,959
Speaker 1: I grew up in was also the type that said

630
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: once saved, always saved. So technically I'm good, right, Yeah,

631
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: sounds like all the people like me that they come

632
00:37:54,760 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: back with. She was never really saved. So even though

633
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: during that time I did these holy acts, and that's

634
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: why I became a social worker. That's why I took

635
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: a year off to work with kids. And it wasn't

636
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: that I went and just taught Bible. I literally lived

637
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: with them and helped them and mentored them. That was

638
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: something that was important to me that I did something

639
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: physically as well as spiritually, so I did that. I

640
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 1: traveled all over the South teaching young kids the Bible

641
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: as well. Again, a lot of guilt there, but the

642
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: one thing I can say is I did teach love

643
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: and never taught hate. Because by the time I became

644
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: a high schooler and kind of was able to make

645
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: form my own opinions what I saw the church that

646
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: I was growing up when sewed fear, which is that hell,

647
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 1: fire and brimstone which came way long ago. We know

648
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: about this and that you're all sinners until you're saved,

649
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: and if you do something wrong, you are sinning against

650
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: God and us, and we can judge you. If a

651
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 1: woman what has an opinion, she has to go through

652
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: the husband. Most of the meetings, you can't be present,

653
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 1: but you cannot speak again, you have to talk through

654
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: the father or the husband. And I bought into this belief.

655
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: I remember telling my father at one point in time

656
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: when I was talking to other people who are in

657
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:22,399
Speaker 1: different churches denominations specifically, I was like, you know, being

658
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: a woman of God meant I trust my father and

659
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: we have the same opinion and that you will listen

660
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: to me. Of course, that should be the way it goes.

661
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: That's kind of the whole idea of democracy, that we

662
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 1: trust the people that were voting for to be our voices.

663
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: That's that ideal, except for the absolutely bands women and

664
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: if you don't agree or if you're in a bad relationship,

665
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: and as In fact, up until recently, they condone you

666
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: staying with your husband even if you are being abused

667
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: or being hurt or being neglected. The only reason, and

668
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: it is actually written in the Bible that you can

669
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: technically leave your husband is if he cheats on you,

670
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: and even then the woman cannot get married. And if

671
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: they believe that you are in the wrong, you have

672
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: a physical membership, and that they will take your membership away,

673
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: and that they will not allow you to go to

674
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: any other churches within that denomination. No shorts, no pants

675
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: for women. I remember one sermon and my parents didn't

676
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: believe this, thank goodness, but one dude got up talking

677
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 1: about how women wearing makeup were sinful because they were

678
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: trying to tempt men. It was quite and my mother,

679
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: who is the Southern mother who's like never goes out

680
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: without makeup, was astounded and she was like, I do

681
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: not believe that that man is wrong. That's the one

682
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,759
Speaker 1: time I've seen her disagree. And up until my siblings

683
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: went through some of the really messy stuff that they

684
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: went through a divorce was absolutely frowned upon. I will say,

685
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: me living in sin with my partner. They don't talk

686
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: about it. They're just really grateful that it is not

687
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 1: outside of their comfort zone outside of me living with them.

688
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 1: And then essentially, so there's a lot. I am definitely

689
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: haunted by some of the things that I did in

690
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 1: the belief that I was doing something well as godly

691
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 1: or that I felt committed. I have a Bible that

692
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: I still keep that is written with so much stuff.

693
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: I have about four journals of my adventures on the

694
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: mission trip, thinking that I all my prayers, all of

695
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: the things that I believe that God was telling me.

696
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: There are so many things, and again I am very

697
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: grateful to those experiences because I really think it kept

698
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 1: me alive, But there are so many harmful things that

699
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 1: actually mess with me as an adult, and it still does.

700
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: It still does. It has become a pretty big strain.

701
00:41:52,520 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: So if my family members hear this ro but yeah,

702
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: it's it's that that level of understanding the Bible, And

703
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 1: of course for this traditionalist had to be King James.

704
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: The first time I've ever seen a Bible that was

705
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 1: not King James was an awful man, by the way,

706
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 1: historically real bad, real bad. Just so you know, it

707
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 1: was sinful. They did not believe that it was good

708
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: but my parents have grown, I will say, even though

709
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: they are very, very religious, they have stepped outside of

710
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: those strict I think they've lived enough and seen enough

711
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: to be like, okay, okay, this is becoming a little

712
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 1: more hateful than loving, So they have stepped away from

713
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: that a little more. Still far from far from what

714
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: I believe in everything I believe so definitely and very

715
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: far spectrum of my views on the world and what

716
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 1: I think is right. And yeah, that really has put

717
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: a big strain on our family. To be fair, I've

718
00:42:56,080 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: never there's always been a strain because of the trauma

719
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: and the response religious response that I got instead of

720
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: therapeutic response I should have gotten. Again, my parents were young.

721
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: They didn't know, and they actually, you know, we've kind

722
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: of talked about it, and it both of us admitted

723
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: the wrongs that we had committed when I was young

724
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: because they didn't know, they didn't know some of the

725
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: things that we know today. And then like the more

726
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 1: thank God, it's at least a more normalized therapy and

727
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 1: all of that, but at one point in time it

728
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 1: wasn't and they were heavy duty into prayers should fix it.

729
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: There's nothing you need but God, which is again, and

730
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 1: I'm really glad to see that they had stepped away

731
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: from that. And we've gone through a lot, but a

732
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 1: lot of this really pushed me into walking away from

733
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,760
Speaker 1: religion altogether. I remember having the conversation with my mother

734
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: in the parking lot of my work about to go

735
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: in about the fact that I did not believe in

736
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: God anymore, and her crying and me crying, and we're

737
00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: just sitting there in misery. I sink my mother has

738
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 1: purposely forgotten that conversation because I didn't want to lie

739
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: to her, especially every time we have you been praying

740
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 1: about it? Have you been going to church? Because I

741
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: was super religious and she was very proud of me

742
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: and thought that I was going to be a missionary.

743
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: She didn't love it at first, but she soon grew

744
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:24,560
Speaker 1: to love it because like people admired me for that

745
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 1: in that community. It was. It was a lot of things,

746
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 1: but I will say, like this is one of those

747
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: moments that I realized, this doesn't make sense. We're not

748
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 1: going to get into that portion yet, Andy, You're not

749
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 1: gonna go deeper into that in another because we're gonna

750
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: talk about the whole trauma of it all. Yay, But

751
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: it was the point in which I walked away, and

752
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: I've seen more and more people in my generation and

753
00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: then the younger kids walking away too, right, yeah, yeah,

754
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: And we have some numbers around that. So these kind

755
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: of rules and laws that you've been talking about have

756
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,719
Speaker 1: come at a cost for the Christian congregation. And the

757
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 1: recent article written by Christianity Today author Ryan pede Berge writes,

758
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: as recently as last year, the religion gender gap has

759
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: persisted among older Americans. Survey data from October twenty twenty

760
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: one found that among those born in nineteen fifty, about

761
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 1: a quarter of men identified as atheist, agnostic, or nothing

762
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: in particular, compared to just twenty percent of women of

763
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: that age. That same five point gap is evident among

764
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 1: those born in nineteen sixty In nineteen seventy as well.

765
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 1: For millennials and Generation Z, it's a different story. Among

766
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: those born in nineteen eighty, the gap begins to narrow

767
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: to about two percentage points. By nineteen ninety, the gap disappears,

768
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: and with those born in two thousand or later, women

769
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: are clearly more likely to be nuns than men, and

770
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: nuns is defined as religiously unaffiliated people in the United States. Right,

771
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: So when we're saying nuns, we're saying n O n ees.

772
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: It's not in uns. Good good good follow up clarification yep.

773
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: And this type of change has been noticed. Some theorized

774
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: because the church has been so focused on growing their

775
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: male attendants, whether by offering more male leadership classes or

776
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: by challenging men to become quote manlier. Some believe this

777
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: has only pushed women further away from the church. And

778
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: that same article, they write, evangelical women have long attended

779
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: church at higher rates than evangelical men, but today that

780
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: gap is narrowing, not because more men are coming, because

781
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 1: more women are leaving. Such women are increasingly likely to

782
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: deconstruct their faith or identify as nuns, a rising population

783
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:56,399
Speaker 1: of the religiously disaffiliated. As Lyman's Stone wrote two years ago,

784
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 1: making your church manlier won't make it bigger. It could

785
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: be a factor in making it smaller. Right. Yeah. And

786
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,719
Speaker 1: another theory is that as more women become more educated

787
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,399
Speaker 1: and more likely to focus on careers, they are less

788
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: likely to be involved with the church. Here's another quote

789
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:18,280
Speaker 1: from that same article. Education maybe another significant factor among

790
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: college educated adults under twenty five women are slightly less

791
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: likely to say they have no religious affiliation compared to men,

792
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: thirty nine percent of women versus forty five percent of men. So,

793
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: once again, when we talked about earlier that job having

794
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: a check, maybe financial independence does seem to be correlated.

795
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 1: Not exactly sure why. Again, the educational level, and there's

796
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: that conversation, I will say the biggest fear for my

797
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: parents and my family is that the kids will go

798
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 1: to the city and get learning and educated, and that

799
00:47:52,800 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 1: education is going to ruin and I guess taint this

800
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: Christian morality ideas. And we've seen that today as we

801
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: talk about CRT and book banning. There is a reason

802
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: for that. And again later we'll be talking about deconstruction.

803
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 1: We talked about it with our interview with Dara. We

804
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: just said a little bit about it previously, but I

805
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: want to go ahead and define it since we did

806
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:26,040
Speaker 1: mention it. Deconstruction is quote a Christian phenomenon where people unpack, rethink,

807
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: and examine their belief systems. This may lead to dropping

808
00:48:29,120 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: one's faith altogether, or may result in a stronger faith.

809
00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: And so just to let you know, this is from Wikipedia,

810
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: and typically we don't use that as an actual source

811
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: for definitions. This term is contentious right now, so much

812
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: so that if you try to search it you will

813
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: be bombarded with anti deconstruction articles about how this is dangerous,

814
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 1: literally like deconstruction is ruining. You don't listen to this,

815
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: it is dangerous, walk away from it. And again, we're

816
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 1: not going to talk about it here because like I've said,

817
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 1: this is there's a lot, but we will be talking

818
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: about it in our probably next episode. It's something to

819
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: remember because it is a movement. I've seen it on

820
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: social media. We talked about it with Dara. There's conventions.

821
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: We'll talk about the origins of it and why it's

822
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: important and what we're looking at. Yeah, yeah, I mean

823
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,439
Speaker 1: there's a reason we put these off for solon. There's

824
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: a lot to discuss. There is, there is so we'll

825
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: have We'll have more more coming your way. This is

826
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 1: only a bunch of part one, but yes, we would

827
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: love to hear from you from you listeners. If you

828
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 1: would like to contact us, you can Our email is

829
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 1: Stuffmedia mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find

830
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram

831
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: and TikTok at stuff. We've never told you. You You can

832
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 1: also find us on YouTube. We have a book coming out.

833
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,240
Speaker 1: You can preorder it at stuff You Should Read books

834
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: dot com. Go do it and thanks to everyone. He's

835
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: already done it. Yea yay. Thanks as always to our

836
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:09,959
Speaker 1: super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our contributor Joey,

837
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: who's particularly helpful with these episodes. Oh so good. Thank

838
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: you Joey, Yes, and thanks to you for listening. Stephan

839
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 1: never told you. Inspection of iHeartRadio. For more podcast from

840
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio, you can check out the iHeart Radio

841
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: app Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows