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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey, I guess if

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Speaker 3: everything is going according to plan. This is our first

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Speaker 3: video episode publishing simultaneously to Netflix, though I think some

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Speaker 3: of the episodes we recorded in the past few weeks

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Speaker 3: are also being uploaded there. So if you are just

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Speaker 3: listening to us in audio format right now, you can

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Speaker 3: now find us in video podcast format on Netflix. This

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Speaker 3: is brand new for us, so we kind of don't

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Speaker 3: know what we're doing yet. We hope it's okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in three D to understand they had three dimensions.

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Speaker 2: Smell vision has also been deployed. Really, all the bells

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Speaker 2: and whistles.

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Speaker 3: If only we could arrange the tingler to come into

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Speaker 3: all of your home.

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Speaker 2: I was told the tingler option was available. Check your

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Speaker 2: Netflix settings, I guess. But yeah, it's exciting here we

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Speaker 2: are recording from our respective abodes.

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Speaker 3: This is my dank basement.

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Speaker 2: And I'm attending to you from the limitless dark void.

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Speaker 2: That's where I am.

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Speaker 3: Aka the guest room.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's a guest room. Sometimes it's a limitless dark void.

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Speaker 3: Yes, but hey, so we were trying to think what

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Speaker 3: would be the most amazingly compelling subject matter to talk

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Speaker 3: about for our first ever video format episode, and we

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Speaker 3: decided to talk about dog biscuits.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I originally brought the idea up as a joke

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Speaker 2: because we were like, well, can we do that's a

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Speaker 2: single episode? Well, we could do an invention episode. We've

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Speaker 2: done a lot of invention style episodes over the years,

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Speaker 2: and we used to do an invention podcast. You can

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Speaker 2: find all that wherever you get your audio podcasts. And

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Speaker 2: so I was like, okay, we could do an invention

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Speaker 2: and I don't know, off the cuff, I was like

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Speaker 2: dog biscuits because the term is inherently funny. The actual

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Speaker 2: item is, of course thoroughly mundane. But then I kept

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Speaker 2: thinking about it, and then I dug into it just

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Speaker 2: a tiny bit and instantly became convinced, No, this is

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Speaker 2: no joke. We absolutely need to talk about dog biscuits.

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Speaker 3: There is something to talk about, and hey, if you're

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Speaker 3: new to our show, I guess kind of part of

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Speaker 3: what we do is try to figure out what's interesting

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Speaker 3: about everything, and that would everything does include dog biscuits.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we may talk about black holes one week, we

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Speaker 2: may talk about you know, psychological concept or philosophical concept

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Speaker 2: another week, and then it could be dog biscuits. It

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Speaker 2: could be something that if you take for granted, but

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Speaker 2: then when you apply a little bit of scrutiny and

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Speaker 2: you dig into it, it's fascinating and is indeed mind blowing.

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Speaker 3: So you're not a dog owner, but you are a

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Speaker 3: cat owner. And what I've been curious about is are

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Speaker 3: there cat biscuits?

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Speaker 2: I mean, not so much in my experience and my experience,

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Speaker 2: you have the little cat treats, which they love, and

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Speaker 2: that's the I guess, the equivalent the dessert for cats.

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Speaker 2: It is hard, whereas my cat's normal food is soft

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Speaker 2: and wet and or absolute liquid. She's old, she gets

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Speaker 2: many different types of foods at this point, but she

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Speaker 2: still loves the little hard treats. But they are they're

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Speaker 2: not the big like bone shaped biscuit that the big

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Speaker 2: you know, the Scooby snack, the treat that we associate

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Speaker 2: with dogs. That there may be products like that on

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Speaker 2: the market for cats, and I'm just not aware of them.

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Speaker 2: But when you go through certainly when you go through

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Speaker 2: the pet store checkout line. What I'm used to seeing

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Speaker 2: is that kind of cafeteria style selection of dog treats

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Speaker 2: where it's like all sorts of shapes, some of them

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Speaker 2: bone shaped and so forth, but others look like an

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Speaker 2: oreo cookie or some sort of you know, cookies, snacks,

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Speaker 2: some sort of human dessert treat, which can be very

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Speaker 2: confusing if you're going through there with like a toddler

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Speaker 2: and they're like, I want some of the obvious human

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Speaker 2: foods here, and you're like, no, no, no, those are

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Speaker 2: just for canines.

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Speaker 3: This is funny because I was thinking before we started

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Speaker 3: recording about how dog treats. I mean, I guess pet

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Speaker 3: treats in general, but you know, dog treats are sort

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Speaker 3: of the big one that people think about. They're weird

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Speaker 3: because they're marketed as if they're designed to appeal to dogs.

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Speaker 3: So you see the commercial for them on TV or

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Speaker 3: I remember the ones when I was a kid, at least,

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Speaker 3: for like, do you remember the commercials for bacon strips

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Speaker 3: that are dogs. Don't no, it's not bacon, it's bacon,

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Speaker 3: you remember, Yeah, Yeah, So the whole thing in the

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Speaker 3: commercial is they're showing you how much dogs want this

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Speaker 3: treat and how good they feel when they get it.

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Speaker 3: But dogs can't buy treats. They don't have credit cards,

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Speaker 3: they don't have money, so they can't go get treats

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Speaker 3: for themselves. Humans do all of the buying and selling

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Speaker 3: of dog treats, so dog treats are actually marketed to

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Speaker 3: appeal not to dogs, but to humans. So the seller

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Speaker 3: has to appeal to something you might call preference by proxy.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like advertising toys to kids, you know,

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Speaker 3: because kids don't usually have money to spend. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you know, things been their allowance or whatever. But usually

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Speaker 3: if you're trying to sell a toy to a kid,

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Speaker 3: you have to find a way to get the parents

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Speaker 3: or caregivers to buy the toy for the kid. Except

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Speaker 3: there's a difference between kids and dogs. At least with kids.

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Speaker 3: After a certain age, they can tell adults what they want,

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Speaker 3: So there is an added layer of complexity because the

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Speaker 3: purchase is gatelocked behind a secondary decision maker. You have

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Speaker 3: to appeal to the kid and then also get past

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Speaker 3: the approval of the money spender. So dogs are kind

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Speaker 3: of like that, except you kind of skip the primary

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Speaker 3: preference holder entirely because the commercial is not for the dog.

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Speaker 3: Your appeal goes straight to the buyer, and it's like, human,

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Speaker 3: imagine what kind of treat you would want if you

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Speaker 3: were a dog. You will almost certainly not be tasting

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Speaker 3: this yourself, So you're never gonna know. You know, you

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Speaker 3: just think, like, wow, my dog really liked that. But

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Speaker 3: in my experience, dogs like all food that you give them,

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Speaker 3: So how can you really tell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a kid and a dog may have an

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Speaker 2: actual desire for something, especially something to eat that is

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Speaker 2: actually kind of gross or rather gross sometimes in the

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Speaker 2: case of dogs, you know. But yeah, like you're saying

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Speaker 2: it's marketed towards the human beings, and you said that

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Speaker 2: humans will probably not taste it. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: humans will generally almost taste it because humans will smell

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Speaker 2: the dog food. And that's a whole point. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 2: a whole important aspect of dog food design. I'm to

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Speaker 2: understand is that humans do have to on some level

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Speaker 2: want to eat the dog food or the cat food,

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Speaker 2: or whatever the child may be. I guess it breaks

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Speaker 2: down a bit when you get into lizard food and

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Speaker 2: so forth, but with cats and dogs, it's certainly the case.

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Speaker 3: Well in the same way that the toy that is

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Speaker 3: most viscerally appealing to a child may not actually pass

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Speaker 3: the adult buyer test because like a lot of such

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Speaker 3: toys would be extremely dangerous or detrimental to a child's

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Speaker 3: health or something, you know, like the child wants the

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Speaker 3: bebe gun or whatever, so like you can't do that.

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Speaker 3: In the same I think, what is most viscerally appealing

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Speaker 3: to a dog may well not pass the human smell test.

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Speaker 2: That's right, But again the humans have to buy it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so this will all be important stuff to keep in

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Speaker 2: mind as we take this journey through ultimately the deep

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Speaker 2: history of dog snacks. I'd say that this was the

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Speaker 2: big surprise for me, not knowing anything about the history

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Speaker 2: of dog treats dog biscuits, is that I really just

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Speaker 2: assumed that it was a fairly recent invention. Like if

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Speaker 2: you were to just quiz me on the street, I

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Speaker 2: would say like, oh, I don't know, nineteen forties, nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 2: something like that. But ultimately the roots go far deeper.

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Speaker 3: Goes way back. Are you ready for me to talk

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Speaker 3: a little bit about this paper I looked up about

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Speaker 3: the science of dog snacks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get into it, so I dug up a.

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Speaker 3: Paper that was published in twenty twenty four in Frontiers

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Speaker 3: and Animal Science called the Science of Snacks a Review

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Speaker 3: of Dog Treats to review. The authors are Bogden, Alexandru Callencia,

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Speaker 3: Sarana Diina, and Adrian Makri. And in this paper, the

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Speaker 3: authors are doing kind of a general overview of research

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Speaker 3: on the market for dog treats and associated trends in

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Speaker 3: pet ownership. So they cover things like nutrition and safety

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Speaker 3: in the treat sector, but also more relevant to me,

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Speaker 3: they talk a bit about changes in dog owner's psychology

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Speaker 3: and how that relates to the history of treat giving behavior.

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Speaker 3: So just to mention a few interesting things. In their

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Speaker 3: background section, they talk about how the population of companion animals,

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Speaker 3: including dogs, is increasing worldwide and treats account for about

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Speaker 3: fifteen percent of the total value of the US pet

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Speaker 3: food market. The pet food market has grown in recent years,

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Speaker 3: and the greatest sector of growth within it has been

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Speaker 3: snacks and treats. So pet treats are on the come

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Speaker 3: up and this reflects, they say, an evolving relationship between

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Speaker 3: humans and dogs in recent decades, where dog owners of

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Speaker 3: today are more likely than dog owners of previous generations

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Speaker 3: to report having deep bonds and emotional relationships with their animals.

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Speaker 3: And this isn't to say that you know, nobody ever

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Speaker 3: had a deep feeling of companionship with the dog before today,

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Speaker 3: but that more people report those kinds of feelings as

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Speaker 3: time goes on, and people also reflect differences across the

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Speaker 3: span of their lives, like adults now talk about their

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Speaker 3: dog being a part of the family or feeling closer

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Speaker 3: to their dogs now than they remember from when they

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Speaker 3: were children. So it seems to be like an increasing

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Speaker 3: cultural trend to have these deeper attachments to our companion animals.

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Speaker 3: And this deeper attachment manifests in feeding behavior, where dog

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Speaker 3: owners express their love by giving food and especially by

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Speaker 3: giving treats, because food, you know that might be viewed

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Speaker 3: as functional or nutritional, treats are more like a gift.

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Speaker 3: That's how you just really show your love that the

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Speaker 3: dog's love language is, you know, bagan strips or whatever.

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Speaker 3: And the authors mention one study that found that dog

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Speaker 3: owners tended to believe that not giving their dogs treats

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Speaker 3: was similar to not giving their children toys and believed

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Speaker 3: that dog owners believed the giving of treats to be

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Speaker 3: a necessary part of the human's relationship with a dog. Also,

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Speaker 3: you can just notice that dog owners describe taking care

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Speaker 3: of their dogs today in many of the same terms

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Speaker 3: that parents use to describe caring for their kids.

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Speaker 2: Now, you'll have to speak to this more since you

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Speaker 2: have been a dog owner in your adult life and

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Speaker 2: I have not. But treats are also an important part

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Speaker 2: of just the behavior of the dog, right, and training

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Speaker 2: to some extent the dog, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think this is a shift somewhat that

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Speaker 3: treats used to be seen more as as functional rewards,

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Speaker 3: as something that you would use to to you know,

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Speaker 3: provide a motive or incentive to the dog to pay

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Speaker 3: attention and you know, repeat good behaviors during training, and

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Speaker 3: probably in past you know years, they would they would

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Speaker 3: use more negative incentives as well, but more and more

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Speaker 3: all the time, it seems like treats are for bonding.

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Speaker 3: They are a gift given out of love to show

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Speaker 3: the bond between the human and the animal and to

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Speaker 3: make the animal happy.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha.

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Speaker 3: So the authors of this paper, they list they or

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Speaker 3: they at least cite another paper that mentioned six major

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Speaker 3: categories of dog treats. I love. Somebody's made the taxonomy here,

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Speaker 3: so you got biscuit, bone, chew, dental meat product, and

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Speaker 3: raw hide. And of biscuits specifically, they had a few notes.

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Speaker 3: They say, usually made from wheat flour, baked and dried

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Speaker 3: slowly in an oven, and it creates this crunchy texture.

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Speaker 3: A lot of dog treats on the market today advertise

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Speaker 3: dental health benefits, you know, they say, like the crunching

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Speaker 3: will you know? It is of such a texture that

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Speaker 3: it may help clean the dog's teeth, or at least

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Speaker 3: it's advertised to do that. And as of a twenty

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Speaker 3: sixteen study by White at All biscuits were the most

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Speaker 3: popular type of treats given to dogs in the US,

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Speaker 3: accounting for seventy seven percent of all treats. So it's

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Speaker 3: biscuits by a mile, and that they actually have multiple benefits,

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Speaker 3: not just in what people think their dogs might want

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Speaker 3: to eat, probably also in affordability compared to some other

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Speaker 3: types of treats, but also dog biscuits tend to have

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Speaker 3: a long shelf life because of their low moisture content.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of like hard tack that you'd give to

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Speaker 3: an army on the road.

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Speaker 2: Have you, in fact, ever in your life attempted to

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Speaker 2: take a little nibble off of a dog treat.

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Speaker 3: No, I never have, because I did as a child.

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Speaker 3: Really we did, even without a dog.

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Speaker 2: No. No, we had a dog when I was a kid.

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Speaker 2: But we were a kid. Okay, yeah, what is that?

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Speaker 2: A different era of dog ownership? You know, this is

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Speaker 2: the dog that lived outdoors and we lived in the country.

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Speaker 2: But I at some point just had to sort of like,

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Speaker 2: you know, at least stick my tongue to it and see, like,

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Speaker 2: is this something that a human could eat? No, they

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Speaker 2: could not, but I think you could. You can understand

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Speaker 2: why someone might be tempted. In part, I blame Scooby

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Speaker 2: Doo because Shaggy would eat Scooby snacks as well for

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Speaker 2: some reason, right, but also.

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Speaker 3: For some reason, And what was that reason.

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Speaker 2: Because I don't know he liked he just liked him.

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Speaker 2: I don't know it was their incentive for solving crimes.

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Speaker 2: But I think the thing to drive home here, and

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Speaker 2: you touched on this already talking about the composition of

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Speaker 2: the dog treats is that they are bread. They are

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Speaker 2: a bread product, and bread is for humans. So like

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Speaker 2: we can't help but think we recognize it on some

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Speaker 2: level as being human food, even though it is so

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Speaker 2: incredibly hard that it is not, among other reasons inadvisable

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Speaker 2: that we attempt to consume it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, not suited to human taste. So I have never

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Speaker 3: tried a dog treat or dog food. But I was

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Speaker 3: actually just talking to my wife Rachel before we recorded today,

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Speaker 3: and it came up. We're like, did you ever try

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Speaker 3: a dog treat? And she has. She did it actually

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Speaker 3: when she was a kid. She proposed to her little sister.

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Speaker 3: She said, hey, will you give me fifty cents if

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Speaker 3: I eat this? Actually I don't remember. She said it

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Speaker 3: was a piece of dog kibble or a dog treat.

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Speaker 3: It was one or the other. And her sister was like, okay,

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Speaker 3: I guess I will. And so she started to eat it,

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Speaker 3: but it was so disgusting she couldn't finish it. But

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Speaker 3: she ate half of it. So she made her little

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Speaker 3: sister pay her twenty five cents. Oh wow, it seems

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Speaker 3: only fair.

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Speaker 2: That one could have. Really, that could have become tied

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Speaker 2: up in legal proceedings there, like it technically didn't eat

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Speaker 2: the whole treat or the whole kibble. But no, okay,

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Speaker 2: everyone left happy.

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Speaker 3: This is why you get everything in writing before do

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Speaker 3: deals like this, you know. So thinking about these changes

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Speaker 3: in dog treats and pet treats generally, it brought me

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Speaker 3: to another thing. So I was reading more generally about

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Speaker 3: how there is research on growing trends in the pet

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Speaker 3: food market that point out this increasing trend toward anthropomorphization

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Speaker 3: in dog treats. Or maybe that's not the right word.

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Speaker 3: That might imply the dog treats are taking human form.

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Speaker 3: But dog treats, instead of taking human form, taking the

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Speaker 3: form of human food. So you would have treats with

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Speaker 3: visual design, naming, and supposedly flavor. But who's going to know,

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Speaker 3: I guess unless you try it yourself. You know, supposedly

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Speaker 3: flavor that is said to mimic human foods, so you

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Speaker 3: can think of little doggy pizza bites. I was looking

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Speaker 3: some of these up before we started. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: not gonna be like human pizza. Instead, it's some kind

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Speaker 3: of biscuit like thing that looks like human pizza. I

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Speaker 3: found one that was advertising something called a Margurrita flavor,

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Speaker 3: and you know, little doggy tacos and little doggy hamburgers

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Speaker 3: and all that kind of stuff. And then so that's

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Speaker 3: like dog treats made out of normal dog treat stuff

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Speaker 3: shaped and made to look like human foods. And then

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Speaker 3: you can also think about these dog friendly versions of

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Speaker 3: human treats, like dog ice cream. Obviously it's a different

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Speaker 3: formula here. You know, dogs do not need that much sugar.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I guess humans don't either, but you know,

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Speaker 3: dogs really shouldn't need that much sugar, so you know,

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Speaker 3: you don't give them human ice cream. There's like a

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Speaker 3: special dog ice cream. And then the pop cup phenomenon.

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Speaker 3: Have you heard about this?

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Speaker 2: No, what's a pop cup?

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Speaker 3: I think it's like I've never gotten one of these,

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Speaker 3: but I've heard of them. It's like certain places do

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Speaker 3: drive throughs. I think maybe Starbucks would do this where

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Speaker 3: they will create it's like a whip cream type treat

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Speaker 3: in a cup that you get for your dog that's

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Speaker 3: riding in the car with you, and you give it

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Speaker 3: to them and they lick up all the cream. And

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Speaker 3: even the best thing I came across while doing this

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Speaker 3: was dog beer. All right, people don't feed your dog's

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Speaker 3: real beer. It's not good for dogs. They shouldn't have alcohol.

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Speaker 3: But there are fully marketed dog beers sold in cans

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Speaker 3: that look like beer cans. For example, Bush Dog Brew.

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Speaker 3: It's not beer, there's no alcohol in it. Instead, it's

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Speaker 3: like a meat broth thing with such you know, this

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Speaker 3: is like turkey broth with sweet potatoes in it or something.

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Speaker 3: And I think stuff like this appeals to people because

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Speaker 3: it allows you to bring the dog in. You know,

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Speaker 3: these are not just like things we consume for nutrition.

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Speaker 3: You're not going out for ice cream or drinking beer

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Speaker 3: for nutritional value. It's like a social ritual that you

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Speaker 3: do with friends or that you do with family. And

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Speaker 3: because people increasingly see their dogs as a friend or

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Speaker 3: as part of the family, you feel like you need

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Speaker 3: to include them in these, you know, consume consumptive social rituals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Another big one I'm to understand is if

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Speaker 2: you have a birthday party for a dog, you want

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Speaker 2: a dog birthday cake. Like, just a mile and a

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Speaker 2: half from me, there is a dedicated dog bakery. I've

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Speaker 2: driven past it a million times, but I had to

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Speaker 2: look at their website for the first time, and sure enough,

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Speaker 2: you can just straight up birthday cakes for dogs. Dog

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Speaker 2: friendly birthday cakes, as you pointed out, but still like

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Speaker 2: full blown birthday cakes. And as I was researching this episode,

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Speaker 2: I was just seeing like dog biscuits and fancy dog

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Speaker 2: treats everywhere. Like I went into a coffee shop and

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, man, there are as many dog

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Speaker 2: treats in here as there are human treats. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean I assume they were human treats. Maybe those are

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Speaker 2: dog treats too, Maybe I was in the wrong establishment.

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Speaker 2: But my espresso did not taste of turkey broths, so

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Speaker 2: I guess it was all right.

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Speaker 3: Before our dog passed away a few years ago, you know,

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Speaker 3: he was like many dogs and that he would eat

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Speaker 3: basically anything, so it was sometimes hard to distinguish, like

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Speaker 3: what the really highly desired foods are, because it's all

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Speaker 3: highly desired unless it's I remember, I guess one time

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Speaker 3: I dropped a klipino pepper on the floor and he

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Speaker 3: picked it up in his mouth and took a bite

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Speaker 3: and then just kind of dropped it. So he never

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Speaker 3: wanted that. But you eat almost anything else, I mean,

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Speaker 3: whatever he found out on a walk, you know, to

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Speaker 3: discarded chicken bones, that's delicious, of course, But he really

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Speaker 3: loved carrots.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well we'll get into the really

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Speaker 2: fascinating history of the changing dietary habits of the domesticated dog.

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Speaker 2: But I guess we should again point out what is

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Speaker 2: a biscuit a dog biscuit in the modern sense. Again,

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Speaker 2: we're talking about a dry, hard, generally flower based biscuit,

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Speaker 2: and we should point out that we're, of course, when

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Speaker 2: we say biscuit, we're really lean more towards the the

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Speaker 2: British use of the term biscuit, which is like a cookie,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to biscuits in the US and parts of Canada,

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Speaker 2: where it is like a fluffier quick bread. Though if

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Speaker 2: you ask dogs they'll be like, give me the fluffy

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Speaker 2: quick bread. I will also eat that. Now, as we've

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Speaker 2: been pointing out, the dog biscuit is generally not considered

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Speaker 2: the primary food source. It's an extra, it's the dessert,

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Speaker 2: like to your point, part of the bonding process between

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Speaker 2: a contemporary dog person and their dog. It's not altogether necessary.

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Speaker 2: The domestic dog is a meat leaning, opportunistic omnivore. They

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Speaker 2: lean meat eater and meat scavenger. But due to their

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Speaker 2: long association with human beings, the human beings that domesticated them,

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Speaker 2: they've acquired the genes necessary for increased starch consumption. So

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Speaker 2: in other words, they've adapted to eat human scraps, human

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Speaker 2: table scraps, they've come to cast off bits of vegetables,

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Speaker 2: especially things like lagoons, grains, and of course that towering

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Speaker 2: human food technology bread. A reminder here, we've talked about

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Speaker 2: bread plenty of times on the show before. In the

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Speaker 2: invention of bread, if you will, bread actually predates human agriculture.

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Speaker 2: One hundred gatherers made bread in the neighborhood of like

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Speaker 2: fourteen thousand years ago. Dog domestication is even older than this,

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Speaker 2: dating back depending on how you're crunching the numbers, what

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Speaker 2: twenty thousand to forty thousand years. And of course this

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Speaker 2: is another reason that the idea of the invention of

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Speaker 2: the dog biscuit, or really any dedicated dog chow might

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Speaker 2: seem like something without anything besides twentieth century roots, right,

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Speaker 2: because these are creatures that have adapted over time to

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Speaker 2: just eat what we are eating, or eat what we

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Speaker 2: didn't eat. But along the way these treats emerge for

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00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,360
Speaker 2: different reasons. But also I think it's worth acknowledging throughout

402
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Speaker 2: this history you can still identify some of the same reasons,

403
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Speaker 2: or you can easily imagine some version of that same

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Speaker 2: bond that a contemporary dog person has that you could

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Speaker 2: you know, you can compare to someone in the ancient world.

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Speaker 3: Even yeah, even if these ancient peoples had a much

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Speaker 3: more working relationship with their dogs than most modern people

408
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Speaker 3: do with companion dogs, I think you can still kind

409
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Speaker 3: of see the beginnings of this long road that ends

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Speaker 3: up with pup cups and dog beer if you look

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Speaker 3: at some of the early evidence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so again, domesticated dogs have had the chance

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Speaker 2: to munch down on some bread of some sort for

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Speaker 2: a very long time. But the question that really underlines

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Speaker 2: the topic here today is how long have humans been

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Speaker 2: making bread for dogs, perhaps exclusively for dogs. And we

417
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Speaker 2: have a few different avenues to take here. So first

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Speaker 2: of all, what do we have in the way of

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Speaker 2: physical evidence of domesticated dogs that had a based diet.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question, and of course it is important

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Speaker 3: to separate the question of whend were domestic dogs consuming

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Speaker 3: a grain based diet versus looking at specifically engineered dog

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Speaker 3: bread products, because sometimes you can't tell from the evidence

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Speaker 3: exactly what the product would have been, but you can

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Speaker 3: infer some things about it. So I was reading about

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Speaker 3: this in a twenty twenty one article in the Journal

427
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 3: of World Prehistory called Dogs that ate plants Changes in

428
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Speaker 3: the canine diet during the Late Bronze Age and First

429
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Speaker 3: Iron Age in the Northeast Iberian Peninsula. This was by

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Speaker 3: a number of authors. The lead author is Sylvia Albizouri.

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Speaker 3: At least some of the authors here are affiliated with

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Speaker 3: the University of Barcelona. So this study looked at skeletal

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Speaker 3: remains of several dozen domestic dogs found buried at a

434
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 3: site in northeastern Spain called con Roquetta, which is near

435
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 3: the modern city of Barcelona. The konrachetasite has been inhabited

436
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 3: by different human groups since prehistoric times, and by studying

437
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 3: the different layers of deposition there we can learn a

438
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 3: lot about changes in human life in the Iberian Peninsula

439
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 3: over the centuries. So the bones the authors studied here

440
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 3: were from different time periods, ranging from the Late Bronze

441
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 3: Age to the First Iron Age, and this would be

442
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 3: roughly the period from thirteen hundred to five point fifty BCE.

443
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 3: And then by using isotopic analysis of the bones, the

444
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 3: authors were able to learn about what the dogs were

445
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 3: primarily eating, and then compare that data to other remains

446
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 3: found in the same strata. And this type of analysis

447
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: works because different food sources result in different concentrations of

448
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 3: stable isotopes in the bone, c isotopes like carbon thirteen

449
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 3: and nitrogen fifteen. And then so you look at that

450
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 3: and you find the ratios of different atomic nuclei in

451
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 3: the bones, and that can tell you what fed the

452
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 3: growth of the animal's body hundreds or even thousands of

453
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 3: years ago. So it's cool technique. So what they found was,

454
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 3: despite the fact that dogs evolved from carnivorous predators, you know,

455
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 3: they're evolved from mostly carnivorous wolves, these dogs living alongside

456
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: humans from the Bronze Age to the First Iron Age,

457
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 3: with a few exceptions, were already getting a large proportion

458
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 3: of their dietary protein from vegetarian sources, specifically grains. So,

459
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 3: for example, the Bronze Age dogs were eating mostly what

460
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 3: are called C three cereals that include cereals like wheat

461
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 3: and barley, so they're probably eating a lot of barley.

462
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 3: The later dogs seem to have been getting a greater

463
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 3: proportion of what are called seaf four grains like millet.

464
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 3: Now there were a few exceptions. This finding does not

465
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 3: mean the dogs ate zero animal protein. Later dogs tended

466
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 3: to show more diversity in diet than the earlier Bronze

467
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 3: Age dogs, which may be a result of more social

468
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 3: and labor based diversification within the human cultures there. So,

469
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: for example, there's one cluster of dogs they identified that

470
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,159
Speaker 3: the authors call Group three. I think that seem to

471
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 3: have eaten significantly more meat than all of the other groups,

472
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 3: and the authors speculate that this could be because these

473
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 3: dogs were involved in different types of human labor assistance

474
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 3: or lifestyle. So we don't know exactly what caused this difference.

475
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 3: This is just me extrapolating, but imagine you've got most

476
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: of the dogs in a culture living nearby the human

477
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 3: settlement and eating these grain based foods. I'll talk more

478
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 3: about that in a second. But then you have the

479
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: other subset of dogs who are involved in helping humans

480
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: with hunting or with long distance travel. So this could

481
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,159
Speaker 3: be part of a sort of military class, or as

482
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 3: companions to people involved in trade long distance travel for

483
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: trade or for gathering materials of some kind. So these

484
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 3: dogs would travel around and exist more maybe on hunting

485
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: and foraging, or maybe just they would be fed what

486
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 3: the humans were eating while traveling, and humans while traveling

487
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 3: might be subsisting more on you know, freshly hunted game

488
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 3: or something. So, whatever the reason, these dogs have a

489
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 3: more diverse diet or they're eating more meats, whereas most

490
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 3: dogs at can Rokatta over the ages stay close to

491
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: the human settlement and eat grain based foods. So this

492
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 3: dog you know, almost vegetarianism or semi vegetarianism appears to

493
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 3: be not a result of dogs foraging for human scraps

494
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 3: and all that's left over as grains, but instead, the

495
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 3: authors argue it's evidence of a deliberate feeding regime controlled

496
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 3: by humans. And as evidence of this, the authors point

497
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 3: to consistency in the values of these nutritional inputs, which

498
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 3: they interpret to mean that humans were preparing their dog's food. So,

499
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 3: when we think about the evolution of domestic dogs from

500
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 3: their wild ancestors, sometimes this dietary adaptation of dogs, you

501
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 3: know that coming from a carnivorous evolutionary heritage and moving

502
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: into a more flexible omnivorous diet. Sometimes this is presented

503
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 3: as a pure accident of evolution that nobody planned, you know,

504
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: like proto dog. The story often goes that proto dogs

505
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 3: ate scraps leftover from human hunter gatherers, and the ones

506
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 3: that were behaviorally more compatible with proximity to humans and

507
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 3: metabolically more coll a rent of human food, these would

508
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 3: have a survival advantage, and they began to branch off

509
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 3: from their wild ancestors. But at least within the prehistoric

510
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 3: Bronze Age Iberian setting. Here, the exposure to an omnivorous

511
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 3: diet is no longer an accident. At this point. It's

512
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 3: not just that the dogs are eating whatever's around and

513
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: that's forcing them to adapt to a more omnivorous diet,

514
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 3: because the dogs don't seem to be just getting leftovers

515
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: of whatever the humans happened to be eating. The humans

516
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: seem to have been fully feeding the dogs a deliberate

517
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 3: grain heavy diet even when the humans were eating other things.

518
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 3: And now that's interesting, why would they do that? While

519
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 3: the authors talk about how, you know, these were not pets,

520
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 3: obviously they were working dogs, so they'd be involved in

521
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 3: all kinds of tasks like animal herding would be a

522
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: big thing, or you know, sometimes they were used for

523
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 3: moving loads, you know, moving loads across the ground on

524
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: sledges of some kind, whatever the they're doing. You don't

525
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 3: want your working dogs to be distracted from their work

526
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 3: trying to run off and forage for food because they're hungry.

527
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 3: So it kind of makes sense to stuff them with

528
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 3: calorie dense, abundant, grain based foods so they have plenty

529
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: of energy and they're not tempted to stray from tasks

530
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 3: to go get a bite to eat.

531
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if that bite to eat might be the

532
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: animals they're hurting.

533
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, even worse. Yeah, So I don't know. Interesting in

534
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 3: this context that you go back three thousand years ago

535
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 3: in the Iberian Peninsula and people are feeding their dogs.

536
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 3: It's not necessarily going to be milk bones, but they're

537
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 3: feeding them some kind of grain based food as a

538
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 3: core staple of their diet and doing so deliberately.

539
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, really fascinating. Again, the roots here digging far

540
00:30:52,400 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: deeper into the past than I anticipated. Now at this point,

541
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,320
Speaker 2: we're going to fast forward a bit and we're going

542
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: to we're going to move to the ancient Romans. Generally,

543
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: we're gonna be looking at the imperial era here. First,

544
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: I thought we might consider this line from the Roman

545
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 2: poet Juvenile from his second century CE work Satire five.

546
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: I shall read it here for you is a dinner

547
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: worth all the insults with which you have to pay

548
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 2: for It is your hunger so importunate. That means troublesomely urgent,

549
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: when it might, with greater dignity be shivering where you

550
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 2: are and munching dirty scraps of dog's bread.

551
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 3: So juvenile? Is Chriswell? Am I getting that right?

552
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 2: Yeah? Chriswell predicts, Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Here's predicting in

553
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: a way, right, talking about dog bread a Pannis Canarius.

554
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 2: So what is he talking about here? Will? I had

555
00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: to dig into this a little bit more. And what

556
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 2: he's to here is at once actually bread for dogs,

557
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 2: but also maybe not quite bread cooked just for dogs.

558
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: According to Consuelo Manetta in Our Daily Bread in Italy,

559
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: it's meaning in the Roman period and today this is

560
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: a material culture of twenty sixteen. Bread making technologies reached

561
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: a high point of production during the Roman Imperial period,

562
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: so there were a great many different bread products, including

563
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 2: different breads for soldiers and sailors, such as you know,

564
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: hard tack like product, high quality breads, breads with clay

565
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: added and also bread for dogs.

566
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: I love the bread with clay added.

567
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I didn't. I didn't have time to follow

568
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: that tangent. But I mean, you know, things have been

569
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: added to bread throughout history to sort of bulk it up,

570
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: to make up for lack of ingredients and so forth.

571
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 2: So the general idea, though here alluded to by Juvenal,

572
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 2: is that there were different types of due to where

573
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: they stood in the bread making process and then what

574
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 2: social classes were given to dine on them. Dog bread

575
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 2: was the lowest quality bread possible made as a byproduct,

576
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: you know, from the scraps that were left over from

577
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: the milling process, so namely brand and husks, and was

578
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: generally considered suitable only for dogs and was apparently fed

579
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: to dogs. Like it's not just a situation where it's like, oh,

580
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: only a dog could eat that, but humans do. Like

581
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: this was also bread that was given expressly to dogs.

582
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 3: That sounds like health food now, right, wouldn't this be

583
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: high fiber?

584
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, and that that is that's where we're going

585
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: with this. Yeah, really, this is where we come back

586
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: to this idea of like working dogs deserving a working

587
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,479
Speaker 2: dog's meal. But then also it gets into very there

588
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: are various class attributes to it as well. So here's

589
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: a quote from another work. This is from Marcus Tarentius

590
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: Varro's on Agriculture, and the author writes a lot about

591
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: the upkeep of a farm and all the stuff that

592
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 2: goes into it, talks a good bit about dogs working dogs,

593
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: and at one point writes quote, the food of dogs

594
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: is more like that of man than that of sheep.

595
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: They eat scraps of meat and bones, not grass and leaves.

596
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: But then he later says you should also feed them

597
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: barley bread, but not without soaking it in milk, for

598
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 2: when they have become accustomed to eating that kind of food,

599
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 2: they will not soon stray from the flock.

600
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 3: M Okay, So you give the dog good food to eat,

601
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 3: yummy food, bread soaked in milk, it's not gonna run away.

602
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: Right right, And it's not going to bite your flock

603
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 2: and so forth. And the bread he's advising to be

604
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 2: soaked in milk would be the aforementioned dog bread. Now

605
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: another take on bread and dogs in the Roman world.

606
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: I was reading in Around the Roman Table, Food and

607
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 2: Feasting in Ancient Rome. This is by Patrick Fass. He

608
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: points out that when you were having like a fancy,

609
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: upper class theatrical Roman dinner. After the main course, like

610
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: before dessert, bread is passed around for guests to wipe

611
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 2: their mouths and hands, and then given to the dogs

612
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,479
Speaker 2: quote who were dedicated to Hecate, the goddess of night

613
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 2: and witchcraft. So bread here used just as like a

614
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: precursor to the napkin or a napkin substitute, and then

615
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 2: given to the dogs, who will gladly eat it because

616
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: it is bread, and it also maybe has a little

617
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: extra fun flavoring based on whatever was on your hands

618
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: and on your mouth.

619
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 3: This is interesting because the use of bread as napkins here,

620
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 3: which I don't think I was aware of this before,

621
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: but it reminds me of the widespread use of bread

622
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 3: products as essentially plates or other you know what we

623
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 3: would use plates for today. You know the idea of

624
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 3: the trencher that you'd eat food out of a big

625
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: piece of stale bread, and then afterwards you might throw

626
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 3: that bread to the dogs or maybe to the poor

627
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: in some contexts.

628
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And in this case especially the bread that

629
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: you're using is of course maybe not ideal for human consumption,

630
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: but the dogs are game. I was reading Bread and

631
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: Bones Feeding Roman Dogs published in Classical World twenty twenty

632
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: one by Sarah M. Harvey, and she gets into a

633
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 2: good bit of this, and some of her key points

634
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 2: are that, first of all, providing a plan diet to

635
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 2: your dog, generally like a working dog, a hunting dog,

636
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: a guard dog, a sheep dog was a status symbol.

637
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: Like here, I am an elite owner of an elite dog,

638
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: and it's an extension of my place in society that

639
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 2: I give my dog what is considered a proper diet,

640
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: the kind of diet that is written about. It works

641
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: like on agriculture, so my dog is where well cared for,

642
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,479
Speaker 2: well fed, and fed on a regular schedule. That's something

643
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 2: that she stresses as well. Meanwhile, that doesn't mean every

644
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: dog in the Roman Imperial Roman world is eating like

645
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 2: this common dogs. They're going to maybe be fed more

646
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: on table scraps. But dog bread was thought to be ideal,

647
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: especially again for working dogs, dogs that need a lot

648
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 2: of energy to do whatever they're doing. Dogs that you

649
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: want to look very healthy and robust in the case

650
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 2: of a guard dog, but also but not like fat

651
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: and lazy. You want the dog to be a little

652
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: bit intimidating. I guess, so the ideal was a grain

653
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: heavy diet, but she points out that evidence suggests that

654
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: dog diets at the time had a high level of

655
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 2: animal protein, and this might have been due in part

656
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,479
Speaker 2: to availability, so you know, you would still have meat

657
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 2: on hand post hunt, post butchery activities, but also it

658
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: might have been just the place where experience and tradition

659
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: meet literary ideals. So there's there's what was recommended and

660
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: what was you know, the ideal dog meal. But then

661
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 2: in reality there's still going to be a certain amount

662
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: of feeding the scraps to the dogs, and it's going

663
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 2: to be different depending on, you know, what level of society. Now,

664
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: another source that I looked at was a melting pot

665
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 2: of Roman dogs north of the Alps with high phenotypic

666
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: and genetic diversity and similar diets by Granado at All.

667
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 2: This was in scientific reports from twenty twenty three and

668
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 2: it indicates that there are quote numerous archaeological, epigraphic and

669
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: literary evidence for dog food in the Roman Empire that

670
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 2: show a large proportion of vegetable components cereals, bread made

671
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 2: of barley, wheat or spelt, and a minor component of meat, bones, milk,

672
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 2: and whey. But they also point out it is known

673
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 2: that the Romans were feeding their dogs differently according to

674
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: a number of factors, including function and age, but most

675
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: likely the majority of Roman dogs were relying primarily on

676
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: table scraps. So again, there's the ideal, and there's like

677
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: sort of the high class, you know, elite diet for

678
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: the dogs, and then there's what is maybe the reality

679
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 2: just throughout dog owning culture at the time in the area.

680
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 3: But it sounds to me like you're saying that even

681
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: in the Roman context, while we did have these prescriptions

682
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 3: for certain ways to prepare grain based or bread products

683
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 3: for dogs that were thought of as ideal, these would

684
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 3: not be mass produced dog biscuits like we think of today.

685
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,240
Speaker 2: This would be just a byproduct of the breadmaking industry

686
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: that was at large in the area at the time. Yeah,

687
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,919
Speaker 2: to really find the origin of like the modern industrial

688
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 2: specified dog biscuit, we have a very specific origin story,

689
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 2: which is always nice, especially for covering on a show,

690
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 2: and it's a Victorian innovation. Generally, most sources point to

691
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: a singular Victorian innovator, and that is James Spratt. He

692
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: was a British born American inventor and entrepreneur, and generally,

693
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: from what I was reading, just a great salesman, great marketer.

694
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 2: And he was at the time he was traveling a

695
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 2: back and forth between America and England at the time,

696
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: selling his own patented lightning rods. And the story goes

697
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 2: that he was in he was in England, he was,

698
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: you know, at the docks, and he saw some dogs

699
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 2: eating some hardtack. I guess some sailors gave them some

700
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: of this, you know, the hard bits of bread that

701
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: are meant for rations. The dogs were loving it, and

702
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: he had this epiphany, I should make bread just for

703
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 2: dogs and market it as such, And in eighteen sixty

704
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: he started doing it. The product Sprats Meat fibrine dog Cake,

705
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: with the target audience being English sporting dogs, or rather

706
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 2: the owners of fine English sporting dogs. So already it's

707
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 2: fascinating how that lines up with so many different things

708
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 2: we're talking about here.

709
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, so appealing to the owners who think that their

710
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 3: dog is special and that this product will cater to

711
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 3: the specialness of their animal.

712
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:07,719
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, yeah, it is an elite, an elite and

713
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: specialized diet for special dogs. And there's prestige tied up

714
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: into it and everything. So I was reading an article

715
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: about this from the Hagley Museum and Library, and they

716
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: point out that that Spratt was just a masterful marketer

717
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 2: on this, successfully selling a product that, to be clear,

718
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: people didn't actually need, like the dogs, the dogs.

719
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: That people weren't like, what am I going to feed

720
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 3: my dog?

721
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: Right? Like, yeah, we'd figured. I'm not saying that dogs

722
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 2: necessarily had the best diet in all cases, but a

723
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 2: certain equilibrium had been attained, and so the dogs at

724
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 2: the time, they say, were probably eating mostly take table scraps.

725
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 2: It seemed to work out. But he pushed this really hard,

726
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 2: like he was traveling around presenting this. At the eighteen

727
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 2: seventy six Centennial Exhibition in the US, he presented that

728
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: he sold it to the American Kennel Club and reportedly

729
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: introduced the idea there were appropriate foods for different dog

730
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 2: life stages. Now, I think maybe the Romans had some

731
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 2: version of this as well, And I think in general,

732
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: if you were feeding a very old dog as opposed

733
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 2: to a young dog, you might at some point realize, well,

734
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: maybe they do need something different, at least structurally. But yeah,

735
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: the idea is that he like just really dug into this,

736
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: and it was like, Yeah, there's a market for this,

737
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 2: and then I can expand that market and I can

738
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 2: go after different sorts of clientele. Now you can look

739
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: up there's all there. You know, this is an age

740
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 2: from which we have a number of surviving advertisements. You

741
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: can find images of what these biscuits looked like. I

742
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: recommend them. I mean, I recommend checking out the advertisements. Again,

743
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: I cannot speak for the dog cakes, the historic dog cakes,

744
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: but you can look up images of them, and they

745
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: did not look like bones. They looked more like a biscuit,

746
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: you know, like an English biscuit, like some sort of

747
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: a big square cookie type thing.

748
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 3: I bet the dogs didn't mind.

749
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: No, no, they present Probably they love them. But more

750
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: to the point, the humans that had the dogs loved them. Now,

751
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: when it comes to the dog bone shape, like the

752
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: popularity of that that also seems to have a specific

753
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 2: origin story, or at least there's one that's the moment

754
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: that's fairly popular. And I was reading about this in

755
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 2: an article by Michael Waters, an Atlas Obscura article titled

756
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 2: how an organic chemist invented the bone shaped dog treat

757
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: from twenty seventeen and it takes us to nineteen oh

758
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: seven and organic chemist Carlton ellis an American inventor who

759
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,239
Speaker 2: was also involved in the creation of both margarine and polyester.

760
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 3: Two of my favorite things.

761
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, this one isn't I guess mentioned as much,

762
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 2: but like I think margarine and polyester his contributions. They

763
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 2: are a little more famous. But he was supposedly called

764
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: in to help a local slaughterhouse with its waist milk

765
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: problem and came up with a dog biscuit byproduct based

766
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 2: on said waste. The problem dogs didn't really want to

767
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: eat them when they started producing these things prototypes presenting

768
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: them to the dogs, and the story goes that on

769
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 2: a whim they tried shaping them like a bone, and well,

770
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: suddenly the dogs love them. The milk bone was born

771
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 2: and was purchased by Nibisco in nineteen thirty one, promoted

772
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,000
Speaker 2: as a dessert for dogs.

773
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 3: I'm skeptical at several levels. Mean, the dogs didn't want them.

774
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: As I've said before, in my experience, most dogs are

775
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: not very picky. I mean, they'll eat almost anything, and

776
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 3: so I don't know what would have to be wrong

777
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 3: with it for them not to want to eat it.

778
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 3: But then also so they didn't change the taste, they

779
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 3: just changed the shape, and then the dogs wanted them.

780
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 2: That is the story.

781
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:57,280
Speaker 3: Now, color me skeptically.

782
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think they're or maybe a few things

783
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 2: going on here. First of all, if this were an

784
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 2: embellishment of the origin of a particular invention, it would

785
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: not be the first. I mean, sometimes invention stories are

786
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: tweaked a little bit to give it a little more

787
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: of a story shape. Suddenly something that is just the

788
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: you know, the byproduct of just trying different things, becomes

789
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 2: inspiration from a dream and so forth. So it's possible

790
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 2: that this is just a more fun version of what

791
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: actually happened. It's also been pointed out that it could

792
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,399
Speaker 2: be the novelty factor they have. You know, who knows

793
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: how many There may be more data on this out there,

794
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: and I just didn't run across it, you know, however

795
00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: many dogs we had. They're being presented with different examples

796
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,759
Speaker 2: of the biscuit, and then here's one that's shaped like

797
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 2: a bone. It could just be that it's a novel shape.

798
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 2: Dogs are curious and intelligent. They were like, what is this?

799
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 2: It looks different from the others, and then they were like, wow,

800
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: he loves it. He loves the dog shape. We're going

801
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 2: with that.

802
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 3: You mean the bone shape?

803
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry. Not the dogs that would be though,

804
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: that would also make sense. That's the kind of thing

805
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 2: that that humans would go for as well. He knew

806
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: that it was shaped like himself, and so he ate it.

807
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 2: He knew it was for him that sort of thing.

808
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 3: But because you are what you eat, it meant he

809
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 3: wanted to become, come into himself and become the dog

810
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 3: he always dreamed.

811
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: He could be. Yeah, canine philosophy one on one. But

812
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 2: but no, I think we could all acknowledge that, like

813
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: the true genius of this is that it appealed to

814
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: the humans. Like the treat is shaped like a bone.

815
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: Dogs need a bone, dogs want to bone, And this

816
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,120
Speaker 2: is something that is this is an industrial product, but

817
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: then it is shaped like this natural thing. I mean,

818
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 2: the same thing works on us, right, I mean there

819
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 2: are products where we take the mag that's an example,

820
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: or I don't know, like even things that don't make

821
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: a lot of sense, like a little you know, sort

822
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: of like cheese snack shape it like a goldfish. Suddenly

823
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: it's exciting suddenly it has this natural world component and

824
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,319
Speaker 2: it feel like something that you would of course want

825
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: to eat and not something that you would just like,

826
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: you know, pelt other children with.

827
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 3: I remember vividly when I was a young child getting

828
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 3: really excited for a super Mario shaped ice cream treat. Yeah,

829
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 3: like Mario head, And I think, can this be true?

830
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 3: Like his nose was a gumball. I don't know, did

831
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 3: that come from a dream? That doesn't make any sense.

832
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 2: You don't follow gum Maybe so I mean they I mean, yeah,

833
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: I mean I loved there were some ice pops when

834
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 2: I was a kid that were shaped like the different

835
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: They weren't like it wasn't a universal monster's official product,

836
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,720
Speaker 2: but they was like they were shaped like a mummy

837
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 2: and a vampire and so forth, And of course I

838
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 2: loved that. Now, like even today, it's like you you know,

839
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: you see a SpongeBob SquarePants ice ice cream pop. You know,

840
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: the taste does not I'm assuming the taste profile is

841
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 2: not something I would dig. But you can tell my

842
00:47:56,680 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 2: children go crazy for it because we have taken this

843
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 2: you know, highly processed thing and made it look like

844
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: a beloved character.

845
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, my daughter can absolutely taste that this cracker is

846
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 3: shaped like mickey. Yeah, it's just mickey. Yeah.

847
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 2: So so again, any way you cut it, though, I think

848
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 2: it comes down to a brilliant marketing on the part

849
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: of the milk bone architects here, and it's one that's

850
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: still with us. It just, I don't know, it just

851
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: feels right. As a non dog owner, there's just I

852
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: can say that it just feels right that a dog

853
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 2: should have a treat that is shaped like a bone.

854
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 2: It's almost like, on some level we realize that maybe,

855
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 2: you know, maybe in a way, the dog shouldn't be

856
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 2: eating a highly industrial bread product.

857
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, we feel guilty about their level of domestication, the

858
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: fact that we're feeding them something that doesn't seem like

859
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,439
Speaker 3: part of their natural diet. They should be running down

860
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:57,239
Speaker 3: an elk and you know process you're just chewing through

861
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 3: its corpse. But we can leave he ate some of

862
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 3: that feeling of guilt by giving them this highly processed

863
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 3: grain based or milk protein product that is, you know,

864
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 3: shaped like a like the part of a dead animal

865
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 3: that they really desire.

866
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 2: I think we should lean into this more that we

867
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 2: should go beyond the bone. We should have it shaped

868
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: like elk skulls, you know, you know, big chunks of

869
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 2: rib and so forth. Someone has probably already done this.

870
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 3: Guts like freets that are shaped like guts and organs.

871
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 2: Three day old rotting guts, you know, something the dog

872
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: would really want to get into.

873
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 3: You know, really, the milk bone makes a lot more

874
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 3: sense than the micrib, because dogs, given the opportunity, a

875
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 3: lot of dogs will eat bones. They'll crack them open,

876
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 3: and you know they'll get the swallow pieces of them.

877
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,800
Speaker 3: Humans don't usually eat bones, I think. Is so I

878
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 3: don't know, the mic rib is actually more mysterious.

879
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: M Yeah, now, you know, I have to have to

880
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 2: acknowledge here. I am. I'm a vegetarian, so I eat

881
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: a lot of faux meats, and a lot of the

882
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 2: faux meat experience is take plant, make plant feel and

883
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,840
Speaker 2: taste and look like meat. So I mean it's like

884
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: I'm I'm doing the same thing to myself.

885
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 3: As someone in a weird middle category who I do

886
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 3: actually eat meat, but I also sometimes eat you know,

887
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:21,960
Speaker 3: imitation meats, and I find that the visual appearance actually

888
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 3: makes a significant difference in the eating experience. Yeah, yeah,

889
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 3: it's you know, you hear people talk about in food

890
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 3: science that that that site is, you know, a really

891
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 3: important part of the eating experience, and sometimes you're inclined

892
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 3: to doubt that, but I don't know, it's it's true.

893
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: Like sometimes it's the only way you can go after it.

894
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 2: Take imitation bacon for example, Listeners, perhaps I'm wrong, Perhaps

895
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 2: there is a really good imitation bacon non the meat

896
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 2: bacon bacon option. In my experience, however, no such thing exists.

897
00:50:58,239 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 2: But the best we can do is we can make

898
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 2: it look like bacon, and we can make it kind

899
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: of like crisp like bacon in the same way, like

900
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: we can go after the tactile experience and the visual

901
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 2: experience of the bacon and at least try and get

902
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,720
Speaker 2: that part, even if the flavor profile is not quite

903
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 2: there yet.

904
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 3: How that compares to the bacon strips unclear.

905
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 2: Now, if you're just discovering stuff to blow your mind,

906
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 2: we just want to remind you that we've been an

907
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: audio podcast for a long time at this point, and

908
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: you can find a full archive of the episodes we've

909
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 2: done over the years wherever you get your podcasts. Just

910
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Speaker 2: look for stuff to blow your mind, and once you've

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912
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913
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Speaker 3: Yeah, most of all. Please obviously you know, do what

914
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 3: you want to do, but if you feel like subscribing,

915
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Speaker 3: that would be great. It would mean a lot to us.

916
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Speaker 3: We would love it, you know, so huge, thanks as

917
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 3: always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If you

918
00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 3: would like to get in touch with us with feedback

919
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 3: on this episode or any other, to suggest a topic

920
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Speaker 3: for the future, or just to say hello let us

921
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922
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: email us at contact at stuff to Blow your Mind

923
00:52:11,960 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 3: dot com.

924
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,799
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

925
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