WEBVTT - Earthenware Cooking: Japan | Greece 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:13.399 Um, Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast about 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:15.800 the world of food from around the world. I'm your host, 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:22.760 wet Stone Magazine co founder Steven Saderfield. Today marks our 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.720 seventh episode to date, can you believe it? And so 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:29.400 far we've started each episode by getting right into the 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.920 story because these episodes are dense and there's a lot 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.640 of ground to cover. But before we do so today 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:38.320 we have a request. That is, if you're listening to this, 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:41.520 there's a chance that you have enjoyed the podcast thus far. 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.199 And if that is the case, you may likely know this. 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.240 But when you give the show a good ranking and review, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.239 it dramatically helps our position on the app, making our 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.440 work more easily discoverable in our stakeholders like our friends 0:00:56.480 --> 0:01:00.000 at my Heart Radio and our advertisers. A lot more 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.400 are excited about supporting us and a lot more inclined 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.400 to do so. So if you wouldn't mind, and you 0:01:06.400 --> 0:01:10.520 haven't yet, please give us a five star review. Okay, 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:17.360 now on to today's show. You know, when we think 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:22.400 about food origins, often we think about the movement of people, plants, animals, 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:29.600 and ideas, But the study of humans would be an 0:01:29.600 --> 0:01:33.320 incomplete one without the study of clay and ceramic vessels 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:39.119 one of human kind's earliest and most important inventions. These 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.679 fragments of earth, when listened to attentively, are clues to 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:47.240 the past. What is the type or quality of material used? 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.240 What was the technology? Was it more like a sculpture 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.040 or formed on a wheel? What can these fragments and 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:59.040 particles tell us about its uses? If pottery is a 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:05.280 conversation with past, archaeologists are our interpreters. Today we're talking 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:10.600 to a whisper of ancient history, culinary archaeologist jerre Lynn Morrison. 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:16.360 Jery Lynn has a PhD in archaeology specializing in the 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:20.520 ancient cooking vessels of crete. And after we talk to 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.800 jey Lynn, we will be talking to Nyoko take more 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:28.200 about the miracle of Donabe, the ceramic pot that is 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:32.160 one of the oldest in Japan. Nyoko is a food 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.840 and drink expert. She is also the author of the 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:41.480 Fantastic Donabe Cookbook, an owner of Toro Kitchen in Los Angeles, 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.919 a purveyor of fine Japanese ceramic cookware. But first up 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.160 we go to the dungeons of crete greased to talk 0:02:49.320 --> 0:03:07.280 Bronze age ceramics with Jelyn Morrison. Yeah, I mean I 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:10.640 just recently took the title of culinary archaeologist for this 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.600 one hotel that I'm working at, because that's the title 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.960 right there. Okay, there we go, because they kept calling 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.280 me an archaeologist. But here in Greece that means that 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.680 you're excavating on the property so that people can build. 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:26.079 And I was like, no, guys, you guys can't call 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:31.839 me that. Everyone's confusing the whole thing. So like, you know, so, yeah, 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.040 so we came up with that to be more specific, 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.320 you know, for when I was there doing presentations. And 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:38.720 I think it works pretty well. I think so too, 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:43.560 So that's what we'll say. And an enviable or aspirational 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:48.600 job title for sure. Good job. Yeah it sounds a 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.840 little overinflated sometimes, but you know, no, it's right on 0:03:51.880 --> 0:03:55.000 target for you. Welcome to Point of Origin. Today. We 0:03:55.080 --> 0:04:00.400 are talking pottery, both in traditions and cooking methodol gs, 0:04:00.960 --> 0:04:03.760 and we are very excited to have with us on 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:09.480 the line from Crete in Greece. Jerylyn Morrison, who is 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:13.880 a culinary archaeologist who will be talking to us about, 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.720 among other things, some of the pottery traditions and crete 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:21.320 thank you so much for joining us today. On point 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:27.039 of origin. Sojerlyn, you were kind of fixating on this 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:31.400 title that you have of culinary archaeologists, but it is 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.520 in some ways a descriptive term for the work you do. 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.479 But can you tell us in your own words what 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.640 kind of work you do and how you how you 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:44.800 think about the work that you're doing. Yeah. Absolutely, Basically 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.279 what I do is um. I have a very strong 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.919 art background, particularly in the strama arts and pottery, and 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:53.920 I use that in conjunction with a lot of other 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:58.560 research in anthropology and archaeology to talk about ancient cooking 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:03.200 practices and food in a g and Bronze Age in particular, 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.880 and so that encompasses create all the neighboring islands, a 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.040 little bit of Anatolia and the Greek mainland. I use 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:15.320 a variety of different types of sources to kind of 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.320 look about what people were eating, how they were cooking, 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.640 and then kind of why to try to put that 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.400 into some sort of anthropological context, to kind of talk 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.240 about basically what people were doing every day in the 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:31.000 world back in the day, back in the Bronze Age. Well, 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:34.599 in wet Stone parlance, we would call you an origin forager, 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:41.800 so we can. And what is it about this region 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.480 the Aegean that garnered your attention? Yeah, I kind of 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:50.080 came here serendipitously. I was down originally down in the 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:54.440 America's down in Guatemala and Mexico for several years in 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:57.200 the late nineties, and there was a civil war going 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.760 on and it was really quite too dangerous to be 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.920 there anymore. And I had phoned a friend of mine 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:05.359 who was an archaeologist and creed Jennifer Moody, and she 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.440 kept saying, you know, you just have to come over 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:10.320 here and just experience it. And I said, Okay, I'll 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.520 do it. I'll do it. So I did, and I 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.800 really just fell in love with it. And I think, 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.279 you know, the moment I stepped off the plane, I 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:20.760 really felt at home. And you know, since then, I 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:23.359 feel like, you know, it's a world of a of 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:26.520 a lot of contrast. You know, the landscape is very 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:30.279 contrasting without like the stark mountains and the sea. You know, 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.120 you're in a lot of you know, the geopolitical area 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.200 over here is super rich. It's old. You know, the 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.760 whole origins between the neat Near East and Europe and 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:43.880 then Western civilization is here, so you know, the whole 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:46.360 scope is just really different than what I grew up with. 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.120 And I just I really love that. M HM. And 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:57.240 your specialty is Minoan civilization. Can you say a little 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.679 bit more about how Manoan called sure plays into your work. 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:04.839 That's kind of a time period that's super dramatic because 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:07.880 we have the theory and eruption which has happened. There's 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.400 a lot of trading going on. The Minoan civilization is rebuilding. 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.400 There's a lot of different ideas about what's happening with 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:18.840 the economy, what's happening with the political structure between the 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:22.160 old palaces and the new palaces, you know, plus a 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.640 lot of different influences from the Greek mainland, from the 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.400 Mycenaean culture. So you know, most of the time what 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.880 we do in archaeology and in history is we study 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.880 these big topics like warfare or trade or you know, 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.680 mass migration. And what's nice about cooking and about food 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:40.920 is that you can kind of study the household level, 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.440 and so that's what I'm most interested in. And then 0:07:44.640 --> 0:07:46.520 once you can look at that, you can kind of 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.880 branch out, because of course food is also influencing farming 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.080 and trading, and sometimes you also see movements of people 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.960 on that. Absolutely yeah. We so often say that the 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.480 study of food isle the study of the movement of 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:07.360 people and plants, so the migration aspect is super resident 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.160 with us as well. From a more macro view, Create 0:08:11.360 --> 0:08:15.480 is its own an island into itself. For people who 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.520 have not been to Greece or are not clear on 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:23.720 the distinction between Crete and the mainland Greece, can you 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:28.240 say more about kind of culturally and geographically what some 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.520 of those differences aren't Oh? Yeah, absolutely, Create is a 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.760 very special island, even in the Aegean because if you 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.360 can imagine for those in the United States, like the 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.079 perimeter is about the size of long island, so it's 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.680 not very long. You can drive east to west and 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.720 about five and a half hours and about the thinnest 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:48.480 point where I live, and it's only fift twenty minute 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.240 drive to the north coast from the south coast and 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.400 then the longest it can take you to get across 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:57.319 is about two hours. But what's interesting is that topography 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.320 is unbelievable because there's about three to form large mountain 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:07.240 mestiefs which just create this micro climates and all sorts 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.679 of variants between the east and the west side of 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.080 the mountains. So the west side of Crete is really 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.720 interesting because it's the coolest, it's the wettest side. And 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:19.520 basically what happens is the rain will come across the 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.760 Mediterranean and it starts dumping the water there, so, you know, 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.600 as the mountains kind of trapping in, it dumps the water, 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.200 it moves across the island and it continues to dump 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:30.280 the water until it gets to the far east end, 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.000 and then there there's very little rain left. So the 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.240 east end is much drier, it's much hotter, and also 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.920 create is kind of you know latitude eally, it's not 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:43.360 straight across the globe, it's kind of angled, so the 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:47.400 east side is much farther south than the west side, 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:50.840 and so it's still much hotter down here. And it's tropical. 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.240 It's the only tropical zone in Europe as well, So 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:58.120 even climactically across this little tiny space of the island, 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.840 you have a huge variation and a lot of mini 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:05.439 microclimates to the food can be slightly different the seasons, 0:10:05.480 --> 0:10:08.840 you know, the seasonal temperatures within the season can be 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.440 slightly different. And then of course between the high mountain 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.280 plateaus and the sea coast, you know, you get you 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.800 know snow and oftentimes you know, when the snows comes, 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:21.240 those mountain peaks are covered for about three or four 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:24.280 months out of the year, so there's quite a variety 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:29.400 here on the island. It's also extremely grew green. So really, 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.560 even though people like to come here in the summer, 0:10:32.080 --> 0:10:34.400 if you want to experience the food culture and if 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.280 you want to experience some really awesome hikes, the best 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.840 time to come is after the rain start, when we 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:42.040 kind of have what they call a second spring, and 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:45.000 that's when all the wild greens start growing, the wild 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:49.960 mushrooms start coming out, the snails come alive, so everybody's 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:53.640 out foraging. Everybody's like collecting what they want to eat, 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.880 collecting what they want to do. And then of course 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:58.800 year round we have a variety of different kinds of 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.160 like food production and process is going on. So you know, 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.640 during this time there's a lot of foraging, there's rackie making, 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.160 wine productions already going in, and then people are starting 0:11:09.160 --> 0:11:11.760 to get ready for for cheese and milk production in 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.080 the spring, so you know, it's extremely rich compared to 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.520 other islands which typically don't have so much areas for crops, 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.680 and then you know, just the variety of the different 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:27.200 types of mountains, and then the elevation here just makes it. 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.560 You know, you have more accessibility and more stuff. Basically, 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:36.760 what yeah, utter dream, It sounds like quite a paradise. 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:42.760 Let's talk a little bit more about your area of focus, 0:11:43.520 --> 0:11:48.160 which is in pottery. You came to this work before 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.640 you were a scholar as an artist. What can you 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:56.360 tell us about the traditions in pottery in this region. 0:11:56.520 --> 0:12:00.880 They have very very very long fish in here in 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.960 the Aegean with reproduction. The Neolithic culture that was here 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:11.360 before the Manoans also produced pottery. Create because of its biology, 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.360 has a lot of different types of clay out crops 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:17.160 or clay exposures across the island, so you can make 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:20.079 a wide range of vessels. You can make a lot 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.800 of different types of fine wares that can be painted 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.880 very delicately, or you can big course wear vessels like 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:30.559 their storage jars or their cooking pots. So you really 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.480 have a wide range of like potting materials to deal with, 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:36.320 and that's true for a lot of places here in 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.840 the Aegean and particularly in Greece, and you know their 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:43.480 craftsmen and women above all, so you know, making pottery 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.400 was very much like second nature to a lot of people. 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.840 Welcome back to point of origin. I'm interested in the 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.680 material part of the research because mostly when we think 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:22.719 about vessels for whetstone, it's through a specific culinary or 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.640 gastronomic lens. But what you're referring to is actually the origins, right, 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:30.120 the raw material. So can you say more about that? 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.200 So one of the things I'm really interested in, both 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.000 as a potter and as an archaeologist, looking into kind 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.960 of the origins of like the Bronze Age vessels and 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.400 in particular the cooking pots, is kind of what types 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.240 of plays the Manlan potters were using and what kind 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.960 of properties they had may be compared to the other 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:55.439 types of vessels. So you know, we know through ethnography 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:59.000 and and also talking to modern day potters, is that 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:01.840 you know there's a lot of different play sources on 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.240 the island. Sometimes the modern day potters don't even use 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:08.520 the clay towards anymore, and they used like industrial plays, 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.640 But about fifties sixty years ago they used all these 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.880 local resources, and so you can see a lot of 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.959 the you know, the natural plays just kind of outcrops 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.240 and exposed everywhere, particularly like in the road cut because 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.400 they're making a lot of new roads on the islands. 0:14:23.440 --> 0:14:26.240 So that's kind of convenient for us um that are 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.480 looking for rock lays. And then in the riverbeds, of course, 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:32.280 that's like one of the more traditional places to start 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.600 looking for rock lays. And so at the site that 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:39.240 I work at called mock Class Excavations here on each street, 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:44.200 it's directed by Jeffrey Souls and Coast Eustavirus, And here 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:48.320 we actually have a Bronze Age artists and quarters where 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.720 we know there was potters. They're making pottery out of 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:55.640 the local clay. And I've been extremely fortunate to work 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.920 with a wonderful team that has been looking at the 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.440 different clay sources and looking at the pottery for years. 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:05.040 And so one of my roles on the project was 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:09.080 to come in and in particularly look at the cooking 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.320 pots to see, you know, what does the cooking pot 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:15.440 clay look like, what did these forms look like, And 0:15:15.480 --> 0:15:18.200 then try to go out into the landscape near the 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:20.880 artists and quarters here at this site and try to 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.880 locate it, work it up, make it, make the cooking 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.560 vessels themselves, and then basically start from scratch and then 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:31.480 end up with a cooking pot that's viable that you 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:35.360 couldn't cook in. So so the cool thing is that 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:37.960 you find out about these material properties with the treating 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.240 clay is that oftentimes the cooking vessels in the Bronze 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.240 Age didn't really appear to have any distinction between those 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:49.240 that they were making large storage jars out of four 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.840 water jugs out of just all made out of this 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.080 kind of course war clay. There's a rock called philite, 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.280 so with metamorphic rock which is really common here in 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:01.680 the local geology, and they just kept it in and 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:04.920 the clay that they mixed it up, and that seemed 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.680 to give it in thermal shock resistance or aided in 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.480 the heating and cooling of the cooking pot to allow 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:14.240 it to be cooking. So that's that's one of the 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.680 main things that I do when I'm looking at material 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.560 sources and trying to look at forms of forms of 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.760 different types of vessels, particularly in terms of like the 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.880 history of like of culinary study here on the island. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:33.520 And did you notice over centuries, stylistic or design changes 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.120 or functional changes in the type of vessels that were 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:41.320 being used for culinary purposes. Yeah, that's an interesting question. 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.200 In the minoans stayed around for you know, several thousand years, 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.680 and basically the kind of the iconic vessel was like 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:52.520 the big pot with three legs, and it's really perfect 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.040 for like boiling and submarine food. And what you find 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.240 in the change of the actual vessel, either at this 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.360 particular site or other sites, like maybe the upper body 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.640 will change a little bit, so instead of having an 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:09.920 incurving rim, you'll have a rim that that turns outwards. 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.520 So maybe you know, when you put a lid on it, 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.439 lid on it in a different kind of way, but 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:17.880 it would still be a litted vessel. There are other 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.840 types of newar types of vessels that come in that 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.760 tend to be also a cooking pot with three length 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.119 but the having it close, you know, it would be 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.840 completely open. So it looked like in that situation, whatever 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.800 you're preparing and that kind of vessel, you'd want so 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.880 whatever liquid with inside of the vessel to kind of 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.280 evaporate a little bit quicker or a little bit more easy, 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:43.879 and you have to think about these vessels too, not 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:47.879 just as cooking pluts, but they're also found industrial areas, 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.919 So they couldn't to be making like different types of 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.080 costumes or medicines, or maybe even melting different types of 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.919 resins or wax or things like that to create sales 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:02.439 for the boat, or you know, decode different types of 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:06.040 twine that they were making for, you know, anything that 0:18:06.080 --> 0:18:09.320 they were producing. So it was kind of like an 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:13.479 all purpose industrial vessel, but most commonly used for cooking, 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:17.919 you know, So it was really a good pot that 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:20.840 was used for heating up stuff. And do you have 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.640 any examples of what some of the dishes might have been. 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.640 We're really luking in each creek because we have excellent 0:18:26.720 --> 0:18:30.440 preservation with a lot of food in the site, and 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:33.600 we have found in more than one occasion we found 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.639 a cooking pot that have mentals like brown lintles in 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.240 the bottom, or like haloes of the brown lintles that 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.640 were burnt, or like head of roaded out over time. 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.639 We even have like one cooking pot with like the 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.919 bones of two wild hair. And then so we know 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:52.440 that they were at least like hunting or trapping animals 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.159 as farming and hunting and fishing. Those are like actual 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.919 food remains that we found in the pot. At another 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.600 site called Pupa the loocle boats who are was one 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.920 of the directives the increase of Sophia new She was 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.359 excavating and found actual shellfish called the Olympics or pective 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.080 less inside one of the cooking pots, and so they 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:16.280 were making kind of a seafood too. So so you 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.320 find the actual food remains sometimes in the vessel, but 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.480 but it's rare. I mean, it's not common. I don't 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.080 want to give you know, misrepresentation of like a Pompey 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:29.200 ask kind of vision, so you can find them. And 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:33.040 we're talking what like two thousand year old vessels or 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.000 something like that. She's the three thousand years old. I'm 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:38.600 just so amazed by that. I mean, I know that 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:43.560 that is precisely what it means to be an archaeologist, 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:48.159 but still hearing that, especially just given the age of it, 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.440 i mean talking millennia, it really blows my mind about 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:55.080 the integrity of the clay and then the fact that 0:19:55.119 --> 0:20:00.159 the contents are still able to give us so much information. Mean, 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.200 it's super exciting. And when I'm working with my colleagues 0:20:03.280 --> 0:20:06.480 who study the actual bones and the siege and the show, 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.520 and they can look at like a crushed grape seed 0:20:09.720 --> 0:20:13.520 under the microscope and say, Yep, this grape seed has 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.159 the look of a seed that was crushed most likely 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.919 for line. You're like, oh my god, that's unbelievable. I 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.399 mean that to me is like, it's just super exciting 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.320 to be able to look at the actual preservation of 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:28.080 the food and me and have an idea of how 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:31.399 people you know, performed with that particular food product, to 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:34.399 see what they were what they were doing with it. Yeah, 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.160 it's so cool. We'll never get old. How much of 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:42.320 these traditions, these culinary traditions that are rooted in clay 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:47.199 pot cooking, how many of them have been retained just 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.359 from what you observe in your time there. Oh, I 0:20:50.400 --> 0:20:53.719 think that's that's that's a really interesting question. Is I 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:57.679 think that there's multiple traditions going on simultaneously with food 0:20:57.760 --> 0:20:59.879 here in the Aegean. So, first of all, you have 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.239 of claypot cooking, which is slow cooking either in an 0:21:03.280 --> 0:21:07.480 oven or like open air cooking. So the Minoans did 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:11.159 not have ovens that we recognize like they do today today, 0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.359 they would cook in a catch rolla particularly like a 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.919 catch a little type cook pots is that particularly like 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:20.600 a chickpea type of soup or a big like lamb 0:21:20.720 --> 0:21:22.360 or something like that. That they would do a lot, 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:24.720 a lot of slow cooking hand. So that's like the 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:27.320 surrend that kind of cooking they do today. They also 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:30.840 have a thing with grilling, lots and wats and lots 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.800 and lots of food that's grilled. And you know, we 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.960 believe that the Manoans were also grilling. People in the 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.679 Bronze Age also grilled a lot of food. So you 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.040 have those two types of traditions. And then of course 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:47.320 I believe a percent that they practiced food preservation when 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:52.199 it came to using the sun or fault blind and 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:54.760 the sun, you know, and they do those as well today, 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.680 depending on the time of the year or where you are. 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:00.920 And so, you know, I think that those three types 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:04.040 of traditions are still pretty strong. It's just that they 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.440 you know, they do them a slightly different way with 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:10.960 slightly different food products. How would the grilling do you 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:14.479 have any idea how that would have been set up 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.760 over open flames? Well, I mean, that's a good question. 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.480 I think here when I've been out with people sometimes 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:22.520 and they want to grill up to meat, you know, 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:24.639 you'll either have like your wire mesh grill that you 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.880 just kind of pull out and do and you set 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.520 it between two rocks. Or you can also take like 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.159 a big stick, like a limb off a tree, you know, 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.120 and you clean it and it's fresh and so it's 0:22:35.160 --> 0:22:37.600 not dry, and then they just put the meat through 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:40.600 that and it stays just just fine. It doesn't I 0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.040 think there's a lot of things in the archaeological record 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:45.640 that you just won't see, we just don't recover because 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:49.000 they're made out of organic pieces. And so I think 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:52.080 I'm always fortunate that I like seramics because the majority 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:56.320 of stuff we find your suram suramic trash really and 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:59.760 I think, you know, it's inorganic and for the most part, 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.080 it's a there. It's going to be there except for 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:05.320 some extreme situations, and so it's made out of leather 0:23:05.560 --> 0:23:09.040 or wood or other you know, other sorts of materials. 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:14.800 It is won't saying MH. Have you found any non 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:21.440 clay materials, tools or weapons or anything like that that 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:25.160 have given you some insight to go along with what 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.639 your research has shown you in uh, studying the clay. 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.840 You know, sometimes what you'll find which has really like 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:35.320 is in the clay you'll see impressions like weavings of 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:39.000 baskets or weavings of cloths, and often times I think 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:41.840 about that as like a secondary kind of lining that 0:23:41.960 --> 0:23:44.560 they could have used, particularly when you're making a particular 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:47.480 kind of vessel. We have this one very complicated vessel. 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:50.760 It's complicated because it's super thin and yet at the 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.800 same time large, and it's about the size of a 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:57.480 large sea turtle show and it's basically that shape inside, 0:23:58.040 --> 0:24:02.160 and it's also extremely thin, and it's and it's mold made, 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:04.720 and it's quite difficult. Nobody has really been able to 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:08.040 figure out how could produce it. And so if you 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.399 look on the underside of that vessel, it's very you 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:14.159 can see impressions of some sort of material, but and 0:24:14.280 --> 0:24:17.159