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Speaker 1: Trust me? Do you trust me?

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Speaker 2: Right? Ever lead you astray? Trust? This is the truth,

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Speaker 2: the only truth.

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Speaker 3: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 3: welcome to trust me.

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Speaker 4: The podcast with occults extreme belief and manipulation from two

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Speaker 4: lucky ducks who've actually experienced that. I'm Lo La Blanc

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Speaker 4: and I'm Megan Elizabeth and today is Part one with

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Speaker 4: our guest, Sarma melangilis author of The Girl with the

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Speaker 4: Duck Tattoo, whom you may know from the docuseries Bad Vegan.

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Speaker 4: In Part one, today, we're going to talk about her

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Speaker 4: life as the owner of a successful vegan restaurant in

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Speaker 4: New York. How she met the man who called himself

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Speaker 4: mister Fox on Twitter when he seemed to know her friend,

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Speaker 4: Alec Baldwin, her first impressions of him in real life,

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Speaker 4: and some of the initial red flags that she missed.

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Speaker 3: Will get into the way he slowly integrated himself into

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Speaker 3: her life. How he first started asking for money in

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Speaker 3: a way that at first seemed innocuous, and some of

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Speaker 3: the many manipulations and tactics he used to course her

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Speaker 3: into transferring an astronomical amount of money to him and

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Speaker 3: began ripping her perfectly curated life to shreds.

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Speaker 1: And we will continue in part two next week.

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Speaker 3: We sure will. What a book, Holy.

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Speaker 4: Molly, what a what a like fascinating and challenging read. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: just to see that the text exchange or the g

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Speaker 4: chat exchanges between them.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, challenging and like a way that makes you want

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Speaker 3: to keep reading.

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Speaker 1: Oh one hundred percent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like I was like transfixed and also just.

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Speaker 3: Like so upset. It's very upsetting. You have to get

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Speaker 3: a guys, Yeah, it's really good before we jump in

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Speaker 3: with Sarma Megan, I just you know, would love to

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Speaker 3: know what your culdiest thing of a week is. Okay, sure, great.

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Speaker 3: So I'm watching the Diddy sentencing unfold and it's a

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Speaker 3: very disappointing amount of time that he's being given. It

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Speaker 3: looks like it's four years and four years is not nagging.

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Speaker 3: And you know a lot of people gave testimonies against

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Speaker 3: him and there's just still at the Sarma interview, it

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Speaker 3: just brings to light how little we still know about

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Speaker 3: course of control and how little the court system takes

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Speaker 3: it into account. And I mean, if you just read

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Speaker 3: some of these exchanges that his defense used that are

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Speaker 3: like that Cassie said, I love you, you know, after

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Speaker 3: he did this thing in I'm going to freak out,

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Speaker 3: like you can't wrap your mind around it. So one

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Speaker 3: hundred and twenty people have accused him of things. I

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Speaker 3: know multiple people, including Cassie, testified in court. I know

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Speaker 3: that some are men, but we don't have the system

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Speaker 3: yet to fully understand this kind of person, who I

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Speaker 3: believe is very much like the person Sarma encountered, and

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Speaker 3: the kind of destruction that they can cause.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, we just don't understand the psychology of what

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Speaker 4: happens in the mind of somebody who is being abused,

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Speaker 4: except to that extent, like the victim blaming is crazy,

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Speaker 4: It's crazy.

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Speaker 3: What's your cultiest thing of the week?

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Speaker 4: Just dark Just the leader of our country. Oh, just

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Speaker 4: the leader of our country, that's all I mean. This

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Speaker 4: is going to come out, you know, a way after

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Speaker 4: any of.

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Speaker 3: This podcast episode.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, way after any of this happened. So it's

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Speaker 4: not like it's necessarily the most timely thing in the world.

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Speaker 4: But like that speech he gave about how America is

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Speaker 4: under invasion from within, We're under invasion from within. This

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Speaker 4: is the quote no different than a foreign enemy, but

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Speaker 4: more difficult in many ways because they don't wear uniforms.

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Speaker 4: I mean, that's just like trying to turn Americans against

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Speaker 4: other Americans and demonizing people in such a con what

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Speaker 4: is the word that I want bullshit way as a

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Speaker 4: justification for sending ice in the National Guard and the

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Speaker 4: military to like try to turn are violent forces against

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Speaker 4: the citizens of America.

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Speaker 1: It's just crazy.

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Speaker 3: It's so crazy. On top of the fact that like

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Speaker 3: there are people in the government wearing like little gold

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Speaker 3: pins of his head.

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Speaker 4: I'm sorry, it's giving maw. Yeah, it's giving cultural revolution,

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Speaker 4: it's giving icon worship, you know. And then on top

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Speaker 4: of all, they're just like removing pages from government websites

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Speaker 4: that had information on them because they don't align with

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Speaker 4: how he would like to present the government.

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Speaker 3: It's so crazy. Yeah, it's quite a time to be alive.

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Speaker 4: It's such a time to be alive. It's like, I

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Speaker 4: don't want to talk about it too much because I

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Speaker 4: don't want to like over trumpify things, but like every

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Speaker 4: day I'm like what, yeah, And so this is one

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Speaker 4: of those days where I'm like, there's just such an

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Speaker 4: onslaught of like black and white thinking, demonization, like my

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Speaker 4: point of view is the only valid one. Do not question,

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Speaker 4: and do not look to other sources, ignore history, ignore science,

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Speaker 4: Like there's just so much of that going on that

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Speaker 4: it's wild. And people in other countries are very worried

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Speaker 4: for us, by the way, Like, yeah, everyone I talked

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Speaker 4: to in Europe, I was like, are you okay?

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Speaker 1: It's very bad.

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Speaker 3: So that's me okay, cool, Well, everything's crazy. Shall we

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Speaker 3: delve into something also crazy and crazy?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Sarma melangileiss to trust me. Thank you so much

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Speaker 4: for being in with us. We are so stoked. Thank

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Speaker 4: you for having me. I'm excited to be here. First

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Speaker 4: of all, I have to shout out the similarities between

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Speaker 4: you and my mom's stories.

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Speaker 2: So I listened to your mom's story earlier today.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Really yeah. And the weird thing is, as I was

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Speaker 2: listening to it, I was like, something about her sounds

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Speaker 2: really famil. And then it all clicked and I realized

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Speaker 2: that Stephen Hawson once put us in touch, like a

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Speaker 2: few years ago. Oh my god. And I think it

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Speaker 2: was at a time when I was I mean, as you,

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Speaker 2: you know, on the other side of these things, you're

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Speaker 2: kind of can be very overwhelmed and bombarded by stuff,

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Speaker 2: and somehow I don't think we were ever really connected

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Speaker 2: other than maybe through email real quick, but I remember

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Speaker 2: that we put us in touch. And yeah, listening to

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Speaker 2: your mom's story was heartbreaking and there was a lot

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Speaker 2: that resonated. But man, that's a heartbreaking story, fully shit.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've been reading your book for the past

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Speaker 4: two days. I've been calling my mom every few hours

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Speaker 4: and being like, oh, you have to read this part.

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Speaker 4: So anyway, that's a side note. I hope you guys connect.

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Speaker 4: But let's start at the beginning of your story. First

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Speaker 4: of all, I love how you We both we talked

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Speaker 4: about this before. We love how you really established like

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Speaker 4: how amazing your life was and all of these things

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Speaker 4: that you did before meeting this man. Like, there's always

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Speaker 4: this misconception that this kind of thing happened to people

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Speaker 4: who you know, aren't doing these amazing things in their lives.

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Speaker 3: You're like a perfect example of somebody who is really smart,

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Speaker 3: and you have all the accolades to prove it, you know,

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Speaker 3: So we just want to maybe start there. Yourself lay

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Speaker 3: the ground.

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Speaker 1: Juice, That's what my stepdad says.

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Speaker 3: But it's like she does make juice joice. Yeah. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So yeah, where do we even begin with all your

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Speaker 3: accomplished Well, can you tell us about your Wall Street era?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, on the other side of college, I ended

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Speaker 2: up doing the Wall Street thing. So, you know, I

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Speaker 2: worked in an investment bank, and then I worked in

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Speaker 2: private equity, being capital and you know, I had these

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Speaker 2: great jobs that were very prestigious, and you know, if

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Speaker 2: I stayed in them, I would have earned boatloads of money.

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Speaker 2: But I wasn't. I wasn't passionate about that whole world

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Speaker 2: of Wall Street, and I just never felt like I

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Speaker 2: really had anything in common with people in that world.

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Speaker 2: And so I ended up leaving and going to culinary school.

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Speaker 2: And then I ended up in the restaurant business. And

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how far in my book you got,

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Speaker 2: but I talk about a relationship I was in. This

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Speaker 2: is the man with whom I first opened Pure Food Wine,

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Speaker 2: which is the restaurant which I was known and that

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Speaker 2: was my life's purpose in that business. And then the

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Speaker 2: other brand that I started one look you, Doug. But

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Speaker 2: the guy that I originally opened the restaurant with, I

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Speaker 2: call him my first time at the at the rodeo. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I avoid using certain words because I don't it's kind

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Speaker 2: of inflammatory to use certain labels, but yeah, he was

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Speaker 2: my first time with that type of a person who

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Speaker 2: lacks empathy and is exploitative and manipulative and ends up

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Speaker 2: draining you of your funds and try to to that

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Speaker 2: you're the crazy one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And so much of the story does involve

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Speaker 3: funds and money and stuff, and I think it's just

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Speaker 3: important to put up front. You were married to a

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Speaker 3: very wealthy man for a year and a half and

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Speaker 3: had the whole world at your fingertips, you know, you

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Speaker 3: had the Hampton's, the what and it just money isn't

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Speaker 3: really what seems to be one of your main needs

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Speaker 3: of like what it takes to make you feel whole,

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Speaker 3: and you kind of were like, I want to pursue

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Speaker 3: my passions.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean it's complicated because as you're saying that,

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Speaker 2: I'm going, oh my god, I really want it right now.

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Speaker 3: Needing money and loving money, I guess are different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly when you need it for like basic safety

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Speaker 2: and not. It's very different from what I never had

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Speaker 2: any interest in whatsoever. Was this sort of extravagant spending

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Speaker 2: and you know sort of people who buy handbags and

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Speaker 2: expensive shoes and all of that. For me, money was

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Speaker 2: always a tool to you know, build my business and

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Speaker 2: do it independently. But yeah, I was married for a

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Speaker 2: while to a guy who was you know, he was

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Speaker 2: a good person, and you know, I got divorced after

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Speaker 2: a year and a half. But I could have had

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Speaker 2: that life where I would have been financially set for

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Speaker 2: the rest.

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Speaker 3: Of time, and even on your own you were making

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Speaker 3: great money in finance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I had made a bunch of money before in

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Speaker 2: finance and at bank Capital, we you can co invest

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Speaker 2: while you're there, and I had knowing that those deals

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Speaker 2: were turn very often huge numbers. I was putting co

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Speaker 2: investments on credit cards and whatnot. But I co invested

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Speaker 2: a lot and a lot of that money did come

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Speaker 2: back over time, but it all went into this guy,

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Speaker 2: Matthew's businesses and got sucked up that way by him.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I had this unfortunate repeating pattern of allowing

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Speaker 2: dudes into my life to then you know, gaining a

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Speaker 2: bunch of my resources.

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Speaker 1: You got to talk to my mom because it was

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Speaker 1: the same.

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Speaker 4: It was the same with her, So tell us about

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Speaker 4: pure food and wine, because the way you describe it,

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Speaker 4: it sounds like such a beautiful place.

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Speaker 3: I want to go there.

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Speaker 4: I want to want to be cozy and like go

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Speaker 4: be surrounded by the food and the love. Like can

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Speaker 4: you talk about what this meant to you and what

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Speaker 4: this was?

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Speaker 2: The restaurant was really really really special, beautiful and as

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Speaker 2: I you know, where I sit, I'm located very close

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Speaker 2: to it because I actually moved back here to reopen

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Speaker 2: in the same space. I don't know if it's going

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Speaker 2: to happen. A lot of things happened, and I've been

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Speaker 2: kind of put through the ringer again a bit or

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Speaker 2: a lot. But it was a really really special restaurant,

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Speaker 2: and I think if I could give myself, I could

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Speaker 2: like pat myself on the back and give myself credit,

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Speaker 2: it would be in populating it with the right people

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Speaker 2: and cultivating an atmosphere where really good people like to

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Speaker 2: work there. They felt good working there. You know, it

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Speaker 2: sounds cliche to say that we were like a family

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Speaker 2: because a lot of restaurants say that, but we really

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Speaker 2: really were. And I think that people who came there

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Speaker 2: could feel that energy, and so we had tons of regulars.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was a it was a raw vegan restaurant.

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Speaker 2: That makes it sound really unappeeling, but our food was

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Speaker 2: incredibly good, and every day people would come in and

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Speaker 2: they were completely shocked by what they were eating and

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Speaker 2: loved it. And we had tons and tons of regulars

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Speaker 2: who were not remotely vegan or raw, and probably on

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Speaker 2: any given night, more than half the people there would

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Speaker 2: not call themselves vegan. It just had such a good

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Speaker 2: atmosphere and such a good buzz, and the environment was

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Speaker 2: really warm and cozy and kind of sexy, and there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of dark wood and red and we had

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Speaker 2: a really great cocktail list that we made, the amazing

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Speaker 2: cocktails was sucky and it was just a beautiful, beautiful place.

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Speaker 2: And then I had started a brand called One Lucky Duck,

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Speaker 2: which was like the more accessible side of it that

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Speaker 2: you know. For many years we had products in thirty

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Speaker 2: whole food stores and we made these really good packaged

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Speaker 2: cookies and snacks and they're really good for kids and

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Speaker 2: good for everybody. And the juice bar and the takeaway,

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Speaker 2: which is a more easily expandable side of the business,

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Speaker 2: was all branded One Lucky Duck. So I was very

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Speaker 2: poised to expand in a big, big way.

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Speaker 3: And I remember seeing this like I was one of

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Speaker 3: those girls who was on you know TMZ. I'm sorry

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Speaker 3: I was. There were just like on some of the

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Speaker 3: the reading the stupid shit, and I remember seeing your

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Speaker 3: brand sometimes like on celebrities. It was kind of like

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Speaker 3: a hot you know, it was a hot spot.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, you talk about how many celebrities were in

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Speaker 4: there all the time. It's like constantly being mentioned in

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Speaker 4: the magazines.

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Speaker 3: There, you know, it's it's a thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that part of it was fun. That

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Speaker 2: was just like an extra layer of fun is that

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Speaker 2: I have endless stories, and I didn't put a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of them. I put hardly any of it in

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Speaker 2: the book. I had some in my original draft, but

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Speaker 2: you know, my book is quite lengthy and I had

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Speaker 2: to make it digestible, so I took a lot of

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Speaker 2: that out. But I really want to write a follow

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Speaker 2: up book where there's a lot of fun stories I

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Speaker 2: could include, just like the most random stories about different

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Speaker 2: celebrities that were there that just made it. That was

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Speaker 2: like an extra layer that made it really fun.

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Speaker 1: That's all to say. You were doing really well.

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Speaker 2: Yes, But that being said, you know, I realize now,

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Speaker 2: and I mean I realized it then, but I was

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Speaker 2: I was very overwhelmed and exhausted and overworked and really

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Speaker 2: wanted to expand the business but had never found the

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Speaker 2: white partner. And I think at home, I think I

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Speaker 2: was quietly depressed, so that when I got home and

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Speaker 2: then what happened is, you know, I had been in

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Speaker 2: this beautiful relationship for four years that and we lit

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Speaker 2: up and I was alone and it was just me

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Speaker 2: and my dog. And that's what was part of what

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Speaker 2: made it a good time for some a predator to

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Speaker 2: come in and take over.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an important pause right there, because it is

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Speaker 3: we always say breakups, deaths, big life changing life changes.

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Speaker 3: You're just a sitting duck, one might say, for it.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, are we going to do that the whole

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Speaker 4: episode Juice a sitting duck.

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Speaker 3: No we're not. It's just it was like the perfect

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Speaker 3: combination of life events to make you very innrouble.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and being being already overwhelmed and tired and sort

296
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Speaker 2: of exhausted and heartbroken. Yeah, he got me at the

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Speaker 2: right time.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about how you first encountered mister Fox.

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Speaker 2: It was on what was called Twitter and I'll continue

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Speaker 2: calling it Twitter. And I had had speaking of celebrities,

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Speaker 2: I'd had a sort of a friendship relationship situation with

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Speaker 2: Alec Baldwin and he was late to Twitter, and I

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Speaker 2: guess he must have joined. And then somehow mister Fox

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Speaker 2: was very active on Twitter, and for whatever reason from

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Speaker 2: my perspective, Alec had just joined Twitter. So we followed

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Speaker 2: each other and there was some winning banter back and

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Speaker 2: forth between him and this guy who I just sort

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Speaker 2: of assumed that Alec must have somehow known him because

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Speaker 2: he followed him on Twitter, and I ended up in

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Speaker 2: a back and forth with that guy and joining into

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Speaker 2: the conversation, and then, you know, like that's how it started,

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Speaker 2: That's how we got to know each other. And then

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Speaker 2: and then it moved to DMS. So from the start,

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Speaker 2: that was a way in which part of my guard

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Speaker 2: wasn't there or was taken down, because there was this

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Speaker 2: perceived or legitimacy that I somehow just assumed that he

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Speaker 2: and Alec knew each other somehow.

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Speaker 3: How did Alec and him even find each other? Did

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Speaker 3: Alec ever tell you that.

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Speaker 2: I've only spoken to Alec once on the other side

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Speaker 2: of all this, and I didn't get to ask him

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Speaker 2: about that, but I mean, my guess is that because

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Speaker 2: he had just joined Twitter, and obviously when a famous

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Speaker 2: person joins any social media there following just go like

325
00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,640
Speaker 2: shoots up really fast. I think this guy, mister Fox,

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Speaker 2: just got lucky and followed Alec immediately and started engaging

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Speaker 2: with him, and he was he could be really funny,

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Speaker 2: which is annoying. It pisces me off that he could

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Speaker 2: be really funny and witty, and so Alec must have

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Speaker 2: just followed him back and then they continue shotting.

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Speaker 4: In the heyday of Twitter, you did just follow people

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Speaker 4: because they were funny. A lot of people got Twitter

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Speaker 4: famous just for being funny.

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Speaker 3: This is not unusual, yes, And might I add that

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Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of the basis of that

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Speaker 3: was Alec and also his uncanny ability to be good

337
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Speaker 3: at Words with Friends. I feel like Words with Friends

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Speaker 3: is a huge part of this story because he had

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Speaker 3: some unusual genius at playing this game, and once you

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Speaker 3: start reading the text later on and like grammar is

341
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Speaker 3: weird and stuff, You're like, how was he so good

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Speaker 3: at knowing words? It's was he cheating? Do we think

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Speaker 3: he was cheating? I don't think he was. Do we

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00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 3: think he was cheating?

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Speaker 2: No, I know, I mean I thought that in the

346
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Speaker 2: beginning too. So what happened was, you know, I would

347
00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,080
Speaker 2: I communicated with mister Fox and DMS, and then I

348
00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: think somehow we knew that we both like to play

349
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Speaker 2: Words with Friends, or he must have seen that I

350
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 2: liked it, so therefore he would like it too automatically.

351
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Speaker 2: But anyway, for what, we ended up playing Words of

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Speaker 2: Friends against each other and also chatting into sort of

353
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Speaker 2: DMS within that app. And yeah, he was really really

354
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Speaker 2: good at it, And of course I suspected that maybe

355
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,639
Speaker 2: he was using one of those cheat apps. But later

356
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Speaker 2: on when he was in person with me, like I'd

357
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Speaker 2: be playing a game with somebody else and he would

358
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Speaker 2: take my phone and look at it and then tell

359
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,560
Speaker 2: me what word to put in, and he wouldn't have

360
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Speaker 2: consulted in the app. So I think he just has

361
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Speaker 2: one of those brains. He was able to rattle off

362
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Speaker 2: a lot of information and facts and know a lot

363
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Speaker 2: of stuff. That's so I think he just had one

364
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Speaker 2: of those brains.

365
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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, So as your relationship grew online, what did you

366
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Speaker 4: think of him?

367
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Speaker 1: What did you think he Who did you think he was.

368
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Speaker 2: I think part of the problem is I never really

369
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,840
Speaker 2: understood who he was. Unfortunately, that was one of the

370
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,600
Speaker 2: things that I realize now I probably have a tendency.

371
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Speaker 2: You know, It's like you want answers, you want closure,

372
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Speaker 2: and you want to understand who somebody is. So as

373
00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,919
Speaker 2: long as there's like these unanswered questions and mystery, you're

374
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,520
Speaker 2: always trying to find out. More So, even after I

375
00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:04,040
Speaker 2: met him, and I was very underwhelmed and kind of thought, shit,

376
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 2: I really invested a lot into that and he wasn't

377
00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 2: what I thought. And I mean, I would just caution

378
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,200
Speaker 2: anybody against forming a relationship and any kind of attachment

379
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 2: to anybody online and long distance before meeting them in

380
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 2: person physically, and not just because somebody might be misrepresenting

381
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,879
Speaker 2: how they look in photos, but because it's just all

382
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 2: about people's energy and pheromones and and there's I'm sure

383
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,679
Speaker 2: there's so many things that we've sense when we're in

384
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:37,159
Speaker 2: somebody's presence that we don't sense when it's online. But

385
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 2: you know, he presented himself as this very mysterious figure,

386
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Speaker 2: and I was always unsure of the entire time. I

387
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,399
Speaker 2: was kind of unsure of everything. But it was that

388
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:52,680
Speaker 2: way from the start, and I thought after I first

389
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 2: met him binly in person that while he wasn't really

390
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 2: he wasn't really what I expected, And I guess that's that,

391
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,400
Speaker 2: But he was able to eventually warm his way back

392
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,920
Speaker 2: into my life over and over and over again.

393
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Speaker 3: It all seems very by design, like he left enough

394
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 3: questions unanswered for you to kind of feel the men

395
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 3: in your mind and kind of create a fantasy. Then

396
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 3: he also left this really big anticipation window for you

397
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 3: to meet him, so you were able to kind of like,

398
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 3: I don't know, Stu, you already formed an attachment to

399
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,000
Speaker 3: this idea. He had a Boston accent. You kind of

400
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,879
Speaker 3: made a little joke about it. He dropped that, like

401
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 3: this man was on from the get Yeah, I mean

402
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 3: he was obviously assessing you and what your vulnerabilities were, yes,

403
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,960
Speaker 3: and the questions that he just kept asking you questions

404
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 3: and questions and questions, and like it felt like him

405
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 3: really wanting to get to know you. But then while

406
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,240
Speaker 3: you're writing it back, you're like, oh my god, Yes,

407
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 3: I mean.

408
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 2: I had a blog on our website back then, I

409
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,000
Speaker 2: already put out so much very personal information about myself

410
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 2: that was all there for him to read. He was

411
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,840
Speaker 2: also asking lots of questions and paying so much attention

412
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,160
Speaker 2: to me that now I see things and recognize what's

413
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 2: happening much more in any type of a situation. But

414
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 2: back then I was just sort of eating up that

415
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 2: kind of attention.

416
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, my good friend, uh had a break up with

417
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 4: someone who had extremely antisocial tendencies, and looking back, reflecting

418
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 4: back on it, she was like, it felt like we

419
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 4: were connecting and like he was giving me attention, but

420
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,200
Speaker 4: he was just asking me questions and molding himself according

421
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 4: to the answers over time, and it just felt so

422
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 4: good at the time that I didn't identify it.

423
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Speaker 1: But that's something I just like had never thought about before.

424
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's the thing, Like sociopaths are people like

425
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,120
Speaker 3: this don't count on people have ever thinking of these things.

426
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, because when someone asks you about yourself.

427
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, generally it's like, oh, they're showing interest and

428
00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 4: curiosity and they want to get to know me, which

429
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 4: is a sign of somebody caring.

430
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

431
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 3: So if we like look at these people through our

432
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 3: normal brain and what we would be doing, yeah, we

433
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,680
Speaker 3: get a completely different story about what they're doing. Which

434
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,880
Speaker 3: is just collecting information.

435
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's why it's you know, it's too bad

436
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,159
Speaker 2: that like workplace romance is so frowned upon, because I

437
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 2: feel like in a work context at least when people

438
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,680
Speaker 2: used to go to offices more than they do now.

439
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,119
Speaker 2: But getting to know people in that context is a

440
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 2: really healthy way to meet somebody because you see, you

441
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: learn a lot about them seeing them interacting with other people,

442
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: and you learn about them not in the context of

443
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 2: just somebody showing up listening to what you're saying and

444
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 2: then being like, oh you like, you know whatever, roller wedding.

445
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 3: So why that's always how the conversation goes. And you

446
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 3: have very specific once you know you want to create

447
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,920
Speaker 3: and ps I love how veganism can become a cult

448
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 3: in and of itself. But you kept this very like open,

449
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: like sometimes you might try a little of this, like

450
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 3: it's just an option. Most people eating here sometimes aren't vegan.

451
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 3: It's it's just something to try. And like, I don't know,

452
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 3: I thought it was cool that you didn't make it culties.

453
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and most of the I think, even even amongst

454
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 2: the staff, I mean I don't know the number, but

455
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 2: I think more than half the people working there wouldn't

456
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: identify as vegan right right, Actually, easily more than half

457
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: wouldn't identify as vegan, and all of that was really

458
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: important to me. I didn't want it to be a

459
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: place where you walk in and feel any kind of

460
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: vibe of judgment.

461
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I love that I do feel judged by people.

462
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: Eat it right.

463
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,640
Speaker 4: I want to hear a little bit more about when

464
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 4: you did meet in real life and how it didn't

465
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 4: it didn't connect with the person you had sort of

466
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 4: constructed based on his online persona. What did you think

467
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 4: at first?

468
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 2: Well, the problem is I was really nervous, and so

469
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 2: I was drinking beers on an empty stomach. And you know, again,

470
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 2: this is one of the things I would caution people against,

471
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,359
Speaker 2: is allowing so much time to go by where the

472
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 2: excitement was build up. I had so much invested in

473
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: it that I wanted it to all be all right,

474
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: and you know, I just did so many things not right.

475
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: I mean I let him come to my apartment right away,

476
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: which was just dumb.

477
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: Listen, I've done that.

478
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, to note that he's been building himself up as

479
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 3: like he hasn't been saying it out rightly, but he's

480
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 3: almost like a special ops like like military dude, Like

481
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 3: I can pick you up under one arm, your dog

482
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 3: under the other, Like I'm a safe, safe person.

483
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as I detail in the book, and

484
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: I think I even wrote that, I felt like, you know,

485
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: hurtling on the keyboard while I was writing the part,

486
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 2: because it's just gross, you know, But I just i'd also,

487
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 2: I had been single for quite a while. I didn't

488
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 2: need anybody after that after that breakup, and so I've

489
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,479
Speaker 2: been on my own for more than six months. And yeah,

490
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: so we sort of like hooked up immediately. And of

491
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 2: course I wish I hadn't done that, but I did.

492
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: I mean, we've all done that, and it normally doesn't

493
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 3: result in like a year's long life ruining.

494
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I have to add to because so many

495
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: of the photographs of him that are out there in

496
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 2: the post Bad Vegan docu series world are when he

497
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,719
Speaker 2: was like this huge, massive, massive dude, and he was

498
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 2: not that when I met him. When I met him,

499
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: he was a lot thinner. And that part's hard to

500
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 2: talk about too, because he looked way better in his

501
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: photos than he did when he showed up. But he

502
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: was so cute. He just looked like, you know, I

503
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 2: don't know, one of those like defensive football players that

504
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: has that extra layer of.

505
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 1: But just like a safe, yeah, teddy bear, masculine. Yeah,

506
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: someone who's gonna hold keep yeah, be safe, gonna wrap.

507
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: His arms around you.

508
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

509
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 3: Okay.

510
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 4: But then after that, like I was really interested in

511
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 4: how you have a couple of encounters with him and

512
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 4: you're like not that into him, yes, and it sounded

513
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 4: like you were like kind of ready to move on,

514
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 4: but then he worms his way back into your life.

515
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 2: Yes, how did he do that? I mean a lot

516
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: of times I'm like, I don't could we ask him?

517
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of these things are things that

518
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: I don't fully understand. I mean, I try to explore

519
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: it and as honestly as I can. In the book,

520
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: it seems like early on he repeatedly had excuses to

521
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: come back into my life. Then at one point it

522
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: changes because he borrowed money from me, and then from

523
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: that point on, I'm always going to want it back.

524
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 2: So that created a financial tether. And there was also

525
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: one time where he in person gave me this story

526
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: about how he could solve all my financial issues, you know,

527
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: because I had been in personal debt because of that

528
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 2: prior relationship with Matthew, and then I had bought the

529
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 2: restaurant from the original financial investor, and so there was

530
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: debt in the restaurant, and even though things are going great,

531
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 2: I felt sort of trapped. And he came and told

532
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: me this sort of fantastical story in person that he

533
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: would be able to basically wipe out all my debt

534
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: and you know, make my dreams come true. And very

535
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 2: very naively I believed him, And I think that part

536
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: of the reason I I mean, it's not that one

537
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: hundred percent believed him, but I think back then I

538
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: just couldn't have imagined that somebody would tell such a lie. Yeah, right,

539
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 2: Like why it's sort of like telling somebody, oh, I've

540
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 2: got you know, I've got the miracle cure for the

541
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: disease for y child or something like that. Like why

542
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 2: would somebody lie about something like that? That would be

543
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: horrendously cool. Now I get it, because it happens. I

544
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: mean I've had people kind of try to full variation

545
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 2: of that on me even now. I Mean usually they're

546
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 2: randos online and I and they'll say stuff like that

547
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: to me, and I'm like yeah, right, but yeah, at

548
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: the time, I just thought, oh my god, like okay, well,

549
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: and that's certainly, you know, opened the door wide in

550
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: terms of wedding him. Back in.

551
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 4: My mom and I've talked about that a lot as well,

552
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 4: because she herself, like both of us, are very uncomfortable

553
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 4: with dishonesty, and she like can't envision that somebody at

554
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 4: the time when this had all happened to her. Obviously

555
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 4: now she knows, but she like couldn't imagine that someone

556
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 4: would say such a crazy thing as that they are

557
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 4: a prophet.

558
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 3: Can you sleep at night? Right? How did you ever

559
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 3: go to sleep at night telling people lies? Like like

560
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 3: we project our own character onto other people.

561
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: Yes, yes. And also I think that there's something so

562
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: not that long ago, I ended up getting evaluated and

563
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: getting a autism one diagnosis, which is just interesting but

564
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: part of that, and I think it's way more common

565
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: than people realize. So it's not like i'mlike special, but

566
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: there's something that correlates with that diagnosis, which is taking

567
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: people at face value. Because we are very much we

568
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: are extremely straightforward, it wouldn't occur to me. I'm a

569
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: really bad liar. I don't like to lie. It makes

570
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 2: me uncomfortable. But there's some kind of a especially women

571
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 2: who have this diagnosis, it's like almost guarantee that you're

572
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: going to be abused and manipulated because there's something in

573
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: that kind of a wiring that it's like the default

574
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: setting is to assume that other people are kind of

575
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 2: what you see is what you got.

576
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, have you seen the movie Speak No Evil?

577
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: Either of them? There's a remake in English.

578
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: No, I'm just going.

579
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 4: To shout it out because there's there's a scene in

580
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 4: your book where he convinces you to let him and

581
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 4: his dad give you a ride to your mom's house.

582
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 4: He describes it as a ride, but then once you

583
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 4: get there, you discover he means stay the weekend, and

584
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,239
Speaker 4: there's just like these steps where he just sort of

585
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 4: like keeps slowly encroaching on your boundaries. Yes, those movies,

586
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 4: I just want to tell it, like, they're basically horror

587
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 4: movies about people doing that exactly boundaries slowly.

588
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: Yes, And it's very.

589
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: Dangerous when you're you know, when you're conditioned as when

590
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: you're typically yeah, when you're polite, in your condition to

591
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: not be rude, to not want to make somebody else

592
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: feel bad. And also I think there's a level of

593
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: I mean the way I was raised, and I write

594
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 2: enough about my background in the book to kind of

595
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 2: express this. But I was not one of those people

596
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: sometimes look at me and they think, like, I don't

597
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: know why, it's like, oh, I have blonde hair. I

598
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: must have been raised like a princess or something like. No,

599
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: I was. It was the opposite, right, So I walked

600
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: around feeling completely unentitled and lacking boundaries and confidence. Right,

601
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: so when somebody goes way out of their way to

602
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: do a favor for you, which I was reluctant to

603
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: accept it, but again he sort of convinced me that

604
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 2: oh no, it's no big deal, blah blah blah. But

605
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: then it was a big deal and he is dad. Come.

606
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: And then because they do this whole favor for me,

607
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 2: I'm then put in a weird position because I don't

608
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 2: want to say, like what, no raise and kind of.

609
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: Someone's dad, I could never oh my god, I know,

610
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 3: oh my god. Ever, and like his dad mm mmmmmm,

611
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: his dad seemed to be affirming who he was and

612
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: with dad jokes my weakness. Yeah, yeah, it's like he

613
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: was funny too. I'm fought in this situation, completely dead

614
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 3: and done. I'm interested to know, like at this point

615
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: had this kind of fantastical side quest version of him

616
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 3: come online.

617
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: I think it came out later. The ride Dad was

618
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: more was early on because he hadn't at that point,

619
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: he hadn't met my mom yet. That was the first

620
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: time he'd ever went to my mom's house. And I

621
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: think I realized now too in retrospect, that's when he

622
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 2: sized up my mom as being a potentially really good target.

623
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 4: I want to hear a little bit more about this

624
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 4: authority that he sort of implies that he has, and

625
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 4: how you receive that.

626
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 1: Like I wrote down a couple of things.

627
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,959
Speaker 4: He would say, things like it's people like me that

628
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 4: make it possible for people like you to sleep safely

629
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 4: at night. He forwards you a link to an article

630
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 4: about black Op Special Forces. When he leaves town, he

631
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: tells you he's going to be off calms for a

632
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 4: few days. Is yes, So, like, what what did you think?

633
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: I mean?

634
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: I know it was a mystery and like you didn't

635
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: really know?

636
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right.

637
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 3: Well, when I asked specific questions, he deflected caught onto

638
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 3: the inconsistencies. He just would deflect in turnoil.

639
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. I could never get a straight answer out of him.

640
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: And again, people like him are able to you know,

641
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 2: this is typical of a sociopath, is that they could

642
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: stand on the world stage, you know, and tell fantastical

643
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 2: lies and not flinch and not exhibit any of the

644
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 2: signs that most normal people would we you know, would

645
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: miserably fail a lie detector test. But whatever is going

646
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: on and there, those things aren't going on in their body.

647
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: They're not exhibiting any signs of being nervous. You know,

648
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: they're so confident in everything that they do that you

649
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: just kind of assume that they're telling the truth. And

650
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: you know, there he did. He forwarded me this article

651
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 2: about something related to black ops and he had been

652
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: talking about something similar like the week before. And he

653
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 2: doesn't say anything, but it sort of affords it to

654
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 2: me as if I'm supposed to connect the dots and

655
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: figure out that he is one of them. And that's

656
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: why he knew some of the things that he told

657
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: me that then came out in the article, which again

658
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 2: I don't know how he knew that shit or whatever,

659
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: but he just had so much confidence about it all

660
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: that it was like, oh okay, and again you know,

661
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: like you can't really disprove any of that stuff, So yeah,

662
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it was was his very

663
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: the sort of dominating energy of confidence. When that kind

664
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: of a thing comes at me, and I have gone

665
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: through my entire life with the opposite of sort of

666
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: always feeling uncertain and without boundaries and I'm unworthy, and

667
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: you know, when I'm kind of the opposite, I'm probably

668
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: extra susceptible of that kind of dominating confidence.

669
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and your heartbroken at this time, you're like going

670
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 3: through heartbreaks, so I don't know.

671
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was heartbroken, and I con did you to

672
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: be heartbroken because I really still even in the early

673
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: days when I was around mister Fox, it's not like

674
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: here's another strange thing about my stories. It's not like

675
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: I was. I wasn't in love with him the way

676
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 2: that normally people in these situations will fall in love

677
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: with the perpetrator. I could never really understand it. And

678
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: until it was Mark Vicente from the Nexium called in

679
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: the Vow who I heard him explain this in another context,

680
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: and then of course he and I have talked about

681
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 2: it in person, since, but he was talking about why

682
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,959
Speaker 2: all these people were enamored with Keith ring Airy, Because

683
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: of course it becomes this sort of joke like these

684
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 2: guys are such buffoons, like why are women all about

685
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 2: these guys who look like either, you know, in Keith's case,

686
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: kind of a nerdy buffoon and in mister Fox's case,

687
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, a big, big, old giant slob. But

688
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: what Mark said is that what these people do is they,

689
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: you know, they take your best qualities and mirror them

690
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 2: back to you, and they create sort of a an

691
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 2: idealized version of who you want to be that encompasses

692
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 2: all your hopes and dreams and make it as if

693
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 2: they're the way to reach that and that through them

694
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: you can get there. And so what ends up happening

695
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 2: is you form like a sort of attachment to them,

696
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: and it's more like you're enamored and they become your guru,

697
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 2: and then it can feel like love. So, you know,

698
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: it's confusing for me because of meeting all of my

699
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: messages that I was able to recover. There's plenty of

700
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: times where I would say to him that I love you,

701
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: but it wasn't like I was in love with him.

702
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 2: It was. It was a sort of attachment that over

703
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 2: time became more of a sickening attackment.

704
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: It was like an extension of your dreams.

705
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

706
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 4: Well, also when that person is both the creator of

707
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 4: all your problems and the one dangling all solutions, that

708
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 4: is Yeah, that is the trauma bond. Yeah, that feels

709
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 4: like love it. I sent my friend this thing you wrote,

710
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 4: because again, I just like see such parallels with so

711
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 4: many relationships that people in my life and I have encountered.

712
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: Though albet not to this extent.

713
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 4: But you basically found out that he had been convicted

714
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 4: of a crime, or at least arrest of her crime,

715
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 4: under a different name than the one that he had

716
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 4: given you.

717
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's when I found out his name was something else.

718
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: And of course he acted like, oh yeah, of course

719
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: the name I told you it wasn't my real name, you.

720
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: Know, you wrote.

721
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 4: So naturally, I blocked all communication with him, release that

722
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 4: I dodged a bullet few and moved on with my

723
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 4: life building my amazing brand and business. Just kidding, I

724
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 4: did not do that. Instead, I let him explain. The

725
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 4: letting him explain hit so hard, because like, that is

726
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 4: the thing, like with people like this the minute you

727
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 4: let them explain, they're just so good at it. Well,

728
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 4: that was only because I was trying to protect you. Well,

729
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 4: I only said that because.

730
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to not reveal too much and ultimately

731
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 3: it's going to be good for you in the end.

732
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 1: Like there's just always an explanation.

733
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 3: And do you make great points about him having a

734
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: very hypnotic voice, about him having a lot of repetitive

735
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 3: information and these things is kind of lulling you back.

736
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, of course I've gone down many rabbit

737
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: holes of trying to understand this sort of dynamic and

738
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 2: how and I've heard people say, uh, like there's this

739
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: FBI negotiator guy Voss Breton Blake and his name but

740
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: like I know his Instagram handle, but I can't remember

741
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: his actual Yeah, yeah, probably very normal. But he he

742
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: talks about how you know, when you put on this

743
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: voice that kind of sounds like a you know, a

744
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: radio broadcaster that's very soothing, that it's very very powerful

745
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 2: and hypnotic. And then there was a really chilling quote

746
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: in an Atlantic article with an interview with Steve Bannon

747
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,399
Speaker 2: where he talks about the power of radio and him

748
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 2: broadcasting his message over just audio to people, and he

749
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: says something about like the power of my I don't

750
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: know the exact quote, but it was something about how

751
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: powerful his voice in people's ears could be, and it

752
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 2: just it was very creepy. But it made me think

753
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 2: about my own situation because there were so many occasions

754
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 2: where in our G chats, which is what I was

755
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 2: able to recover, and so I have a lot of

756
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: art actual dialogue in the former G chats and those parts,

757
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: some of them are kind of funny because I'm pushing

758
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: back at him, I'm making He's trying to get me

759
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: to send in more money and I'm refusing, and then

760
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: he would either call me or he would come back,

761
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: and then according to my records, you know, it's like, oh,

762
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: and then I sent him another wire for thirty thousand dollars.

763
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 3: Because he talked to you and yeah, yeah, And I

764
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 3: think it's important to note too that that voice can

765
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: come in so many different forms, like in the two

766
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: by two is the cult I was raised, and it's

767
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: very like this, and we just want you.

768
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: To know, yeah, I hate it every.

769
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 3: Time everything that happens, and you're just like.

770
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 1: Where as some commentators they'll talk like.

771
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and like I always wonder when I watched World

772
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 3: War two documentaries, I'm like, did all of this escalate

773
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 3: so much? Because you have like Winston Churchill Hitler like

774
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,479
Speaker 3: bad guys, good guys, whatever, guys, Like you're just hearing

775
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 3: our voices and it's like freaky And I.

776
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: Don't know, you realize we are podcast hosts.

777
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: We may just have videos someday, but yeah, I don't

778
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 3: know that that voice thing is interesting.

779
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: Well I think, yeah, just.

780
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 4: Someone bombarding you also, like, actually, will you tell us

781
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 4: a little bit about that, Like did he consume your

782
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 4: time with communication with him?

783
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: Oh? Why? Yes? Over time it just got worse and

784
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: worse where he would and he consumed my time with

785
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,359
Speaker 2: all kinds of nonsense. I mean in the end, I

786
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 2: was like, you know, I'm trying to run the business

787
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: and under so much stress and giving them all this money,

788
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: and then he'd be yelling at me to like go

789
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: pick up this chipotlet order and stop everything I'm doing

790
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: and do this other nonsense thing. And looking back, I

791
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: think a lot of that was just to keep me

792
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:03,760
Speaker 2: constantly destabilized, exhausted and confused and unable to think straight

793
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: totally filter.

794
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, what was the first time he asked you for money?

795
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 3: Can you tell us about that?

796
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 2: He acted like it was this giant emergency, and it

797
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: was early on enough that I at that point had

798
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 2: no reason to be angry at him. Really, it's just

799
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: my nature to be helpful, I guess, and I don't know.

800
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, again, I wish I could remember

801
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: exactly what he said and what the circumstances were. But

802
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 2: he called me on the phone and acted like it

803
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 2: was the sort of temporary, crazy emergency and there were

804
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: dire consequences if you didn't get the money. And so

805
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 2: you know, it's a little bit like that bind that

806
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 2: this sort of street con irist will put you in

807
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: where they say, you know, I need this, I need

808
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: twenty bucks because of some X y Z tragic story,

809
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 2: and you're sitting there having to do the calculation of, well,

810
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 2: my gut's telling me that they're a lying But if

811
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 2: they're not, I'm such an asshole to not get because

812
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 2: if what they're saying is true, oh my god, like

813
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 2: they need the money to get back to their wife

814
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 2: was about to give birth or like some crazy story,

815
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 2: and you think, right, and then you make that calculation

816
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: of and I think that's a typical sort of street

817
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: con artist thing where you know you're approached by somebody.

818
00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 2: It happened to me once at a rest stop somebody

819
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 2: wanted money. This was a long long time ago. It

820
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 2: was a lot easier for those things to happen when

821
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 2: it would make sense that somebody might not have a

822
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 2: credit card or then though. But yeah, and so it

823
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: was one of those things where if I didn't give

824
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: it to him and he was telling me the truth,

825
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: I'd be kind of an asshole because I could get

826
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 2: it to him. So I did, and then you know whatever,

827
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 2: it was multiplied and multiplied.

828
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 4: I always are on the side of giving it to

829
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 4: them because I'm like that is where I land as well.

830
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 4: I'm like, well, if they are telling the truth, or

831
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 4: if they're in such a desperate.

832
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 3: And I have to go back in my mind, like

833
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 3: one time I found myself lost in Mexico of all places,

834
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 3: no money, no shoes, like fucked, don't even ask okay,

835
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 3: and I had to like ask somebody for money to

836
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 3: get back to the Odell. I was daying, okay, hilarious,

837
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 3: And they gave it to me, thank God. And I

838
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: think and he didn't speak English. He probably didn't have

839
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 3: a ton of money. I think about him every week

840
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: of my life, like, thank God for this man who

841
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 3: was like, here's some bus money, yeah, and like yes,

842
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 3: sometimes people actually need money, my god.

843
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

844
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

845
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 4: After my mom and I got out of our cult situation,

846
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 4: we had no money and people were weird about helping

847
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 4: her when it was literally like a single mother. So like,

848
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:32,959
Speaker 4: in response to that, it makes sense to me, yeah,

849
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 4: that you err on the side of generosity.

850
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 3: But then what happened then? How did he use that?

851
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: So then over time like he never you know, he

852
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 2: didn't pay me back. It was one excuse after another,

853
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 2: and then he would use that as a way to

854
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: get to allow me to let him come back. And

855
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: the thing is he didn't live in New York. He

856
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 2: lived in Massachusetts, and so letting him come back wasn't

857
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 2: like usually just letting him stop by. It would usually

858
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 2: involve him staying for the weekend or at least overnight

859
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 2: or something I don't know. And the funny thing is

860
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 2: he was always staying on my couch because I couldn't

861
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: stand to sleep next room because he snored, and anyway,

862
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: and then he would do some sort of sorcery on

863
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: me so that by the end of the weekend and

864
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: somehow loan in more money. You know, it's like it

865
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: was a tether.

866
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean reading the chats, I think for both

867
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 4: of us was a maddening experience. Just like the way

868
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 4: that he kept moving.

869
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 2: The yes, classic moving the goalpost. You know, I achieved

870
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 2: the thing that he says is going to be the

871
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 2: very last thing, and once I do that, it'll all

872
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,479
Speaker 2: be over. And then it keeps moving, and it keeps moving. Yeah.

873
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: One of the frustrating things for me was that, like

874
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 3: sometimes he would make me laugh and I would feel like, oh,

875
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: they're like almost like I don't know, like brother or

876
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 3: sister or something like I can see that you guys

877
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 3: were close, Like I would feel comfort in him while

878
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 3: I'm being scammed with you.

879
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 2: And that's the seconding thing is that the person who's

880
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 2: putting into hell is also the only person who can

881
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 2: comfort you because they're the only person that knows about it.

882
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: Because again, you put in a situation where you can't

883
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 2: talk to anybody because it's so crazy. So he's the

884
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 2: only one that knows about the hell that he's putting

885
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: me through, and therefore He's the only one who can

886
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: comfort me, and that was a weird thing to experience.

887
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: Fast forward to when I'm arrested, and you know, on

888
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 2: the other side of this, there was a weird element

889
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 2: of that because nobody knew what had really happened, and

890
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 2: so I was all alone. And it is that sickening

891
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: trauma ban dynamic that I'm sure is deliberate on their part,

892
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 2: where they're torturing you and then also being like, it's

893
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 2: going to be okay, You're doing good. You know, he

894
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 2: would try to prop me up like that and talk

895
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 2: to me a bit like a child, or a lot

896
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: like a child. And then also, you know, as we

897
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: talked about early about just him on Twitter, he could

898
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 2: be very funny, and that is maddening because in the

899
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 2: middle of these traumatic experiences, he wouldn't be goofy and

900
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 2: funny and make me laugh. And so that also creates

901
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 2: those elements of cognitive disonance, because somebody couldn't be casually

902
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 2: making jokes and making laugh while they're also destroying your life.

903
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:20,240
Speaker 2: So that's another like layer of humor.

904
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: Humor it's like the most dangerous tactic, I think, and

905
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 3: that's why we have the president we have because sometimes

906
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: he can say something kind of funny.

907
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so that's hilarious.

908
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 3: Can you take a moment to take us back to

909
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 3: when you first got a picture of his full face? First,

910
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,760
Speaker 3: his Twitter picture was just the bottom of his face,

911
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 3: and then you got a picture of his full face,

912
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 3: and in his eyes there was something that jolted, like

913
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 3: an immediate gut instinct of sphere. Yes, what did that

914
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 3: feel like? What were you sensing? And how did you

915
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:55,359
Speaker 3: override it?

916
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: So what happened was the pictures he put it himself

917
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 2: on first on Twitter, and then he was sending me

918
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 2: were like the lower half of the space. And then

919
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 2: it was just him with sunglasses. And so for a while,

920
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: all I saw was pictures of him the sun, and

921
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 2: so he sort of like this slow reveal, which is

922
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: creating all this anticipation. And I put a lot of

923
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 2: these pictures online. I made a website for the book,

924
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 2: and I put these photos online so that you can

925
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 2: see what he was showing me. And then finally he

926
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 2: sent me a picture that showed his eyes and it

927
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,840
Speaker 2: was a selfie take and he was laying down, but

928
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 2: his eyes were so intense and dark. I was scared

929
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 2: the moment I opened it must have been a text.

930
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 2: When I looked at the text, I immediately felt a

931
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 2: jolt or fear. And that's something that now I pay

932
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: attention to everything. Now I'm always paying attention to how

933
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 2: something makes me feel. But at the time, I just,

934
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:52,879
Speaker 2: you know, I overwrote it, and.

935
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 1: It's not that much information. It's right an image.

936
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: And it's also something at the time I wouldn't have

937
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 2: been able to explain, whereas now I could, Like if

938
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: somebody was telling me that this happened to them and

939
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: they said, oh, I looked at this picture of Like

940
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 2: if somebody has said that, I would say, run if

941
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: you felt that jold of fear, like your body knows,

942
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: and run away from that. But at the time I

943
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,359
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been able to even give myself that kind

944
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 2: of advice. So I just thought, I mean, I didn't

945
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 2: really think about it. It's probably the problem. I noticed

946
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: that I felt that jold of fear, and then you know,

947
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe you sent me another picture and

948
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 2: I just sort of moved on from it, but I didn't.

949
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,919
Speaker 2: I didn't act on it in any way.

950
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 4: I mean, and to be fair, there are probably photos

951
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 4: of me that someone would jolt in fear from Yeah.

952
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean the last thing we always say on

953
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 3: this podcast is remember to trust your guy. And it's

954
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 3: just interesting to me that this immediate gut instinct came

955
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 3: in when you saw those eyes. But I also understand that, like, yes,

956
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 3: you could see a picture of a very nice person

957
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 3: and your gut could say they look weird, and then

958
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 3: you're like, no, they were great.

959
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 4: So I think that behavior is probably the bigger indicator.

960
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 4: But still the lesson is accurate.

961
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 3: Sometimes your body just knows if.

962
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,319
Speaker 1: You notice something, pay attention to it is the thing.

963
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I can't think of any time I've

964
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 2: ever felt fear or wary of somebody and then they

965
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 2: turned out to be fine.

966
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:25,000
Speaker 4: Well, I am naturally very narrow eid, so I have right,

967
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 4: But that's because I grew up with the upbringing that

968
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,280
Speaker 4: I grew up with, So I'm very skeptical of people

969
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 4: and probably to you know, like I probably go to

970
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: for in the other direction, so you know, balance, what's

971
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 4: that There was a man named Danny who noticed these

972
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 4: interactions between you two and tried to warn you.

973
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 3: He literally like locked this man.

974
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, he said, hope you realize the isolation and

975
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 4: his attempt to brainwash you are part of the continuing scam,

976
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 4: and you wrote that you actually got angry with him

977
00:48:59,160 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 4: for saying that.

978
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about that?

979
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 2: When I went back and found those communications between me

980
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 2: and Danny, it was I don't know how to describe

981
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,319
Speaker 2: how that felt. It just felt crazy because I didn't

982
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 2: remember it, but I remembered that Danny had gotten angry,

983
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 2: and I vaguely remembered that Danny had sort of pointed

984
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 2: out that he was probably a con artist. But when

985
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 2: I went back and I looked up those conversations and

986
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 2: I found those get chats between Danny and I, and

987
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 2: he says, he says exactly what was going on, and

988
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 2: I yeah, and I overrode that. What's weird is that

989
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 2: even then I knew that some of the stuff he

990
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 2: was saying was lies. And that was one of those

991
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,880
Speaker 2: times where I had pulled away from mister Fox. I

992
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 2: had pulled away from mister Fox. Yeah, and so I

993
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: was kind of agreeing with him, all right, Yeah, the

994
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 2: guy's kind of a liar or whatever. But then he

995
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 2: was able to get back into my life even after that.

996
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: But it was sort of heartbreaking to see it written

997
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 2: out like that, you know, in black and white, And

998
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: it's part of the reason why people have a tendency

999
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,839
Speaker 2: to erroneously but logically, you know, they think that if

1000
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 2: they just confront somebody who's in a cult or in

1001
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 2: a toxic relationship, but just by pointing it out and going,

1002
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 2: oh my god, this person's a total psycho, you've got

1003
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 2: to get away from them. I think it's gonna work,

1004
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: but very often it won't work. I mean, even the

1005
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: woman who according to when this show aired, there was

1006
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 2: a follow up show about somebody went after mister Fox

1007
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 2: and found him or his name's Anthony's strangers who changed

1008
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: his name, and they confront a woman that he's in

1009
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 2: a relationship with and she seems to just totally ignore it. So, yeah,

1010
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 2: it happens. I mean, Danny's words obviously didn't have an impact. Unfortunately,

1011
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: I wish they had.

1012
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it just reinforces something we talk about constantly,

1013
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 4: which is that like directly attacking the beliefs often backfires

1014
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 4: and has that opposite result that you wanted to have. Yeah,

1015
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 4: do you think that there's a way he could have

1016
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,319
Speaker 4: talked about it with you that would have been more

1017
00:50:58,400 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 4: likely to penetrate.

1018
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 2: Asked this question a lot, and I struggle with it

1019
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 2: because I also end up a lot of times, you know,

1020
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 2: sort of counseling or talking other people through this very situation.

1021
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 2: So you know, siblings or parents who are dealing with

1022
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 2: a child or a sibling or a friend or who's

1023
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 2: in a situation and they're trying to get them out

1024
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 2: and it's very, very hard. I think it was weird

1025
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: because Danny. It's not like Danny was a close friend

1026
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 2: or a sibling. If it were, that would have made

1027
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 2: a big difference because if he had, then he would

1028
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 2: have been somebody that was in my life more and

1029
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 2: could have continued to push and push and push and

1030
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: just not give up. So sometimes I do tell people,

1031
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: you know, the most important thing is to maintain that relationship,

1032
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 2: so don't push so hard that it's going to do

1033
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 2: what actually happened with Danny. Again, he wasn't a really

1034
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 2: good friend, but even if he had, potentially it could

1035
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 2: have backfired in a way that that's like you you

1036
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 2: push that person out of your life because you're you're like, oh,

1037
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 2: well they're an asshole, So I'm now not going to

1038
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 2: listen to them at all and you cut them off,

1039
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 2: so kind of the most important thing is to maintain

1040
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 2: that contact.

1041
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 3: As frustrating as it might be.

1042
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know.

1043
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 4: AHD for our last like ten ish minutes of part one,

1044
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 4: here can you talk about how you ended up married

1045
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 4: to this man you didn't even really like?

1046
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,439
Speaker 2: I know, I mean, this is one of the things

1047
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,320
Speaker 2: that I had a lot of issues with bad began,

1048
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,360
Speaker 2: which I've talked about like ad nauseam. And one of

1049
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 2: the more minor ones was that they in the docu

1050
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: saries about my story, they make it seem like I

1051
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 2: married him under completely different circumstances than I really did,

1052
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 2: and I did not want to marry him, and he

1053
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: basically like browbeat me and convinced me. And as in

1054
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: these situations, very often these people just like they're just

1055
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 2: relentless and then finally you're like, oh fine, I'll do

1056
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 2: the thing you want me to do.

1057
00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 3: Because Laura so, coeopaths have unlimited energy. Ps they're never tired. God,

1058
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 3: they just batter batter bad or bad or bad or

1059
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 3: batter batter where you serial killers have nine families and

1060
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 3: they just say they stay all night killing people have

1061
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 3: a full time job. And like they just badger you.

1062
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 2: So yeah, no that I mean, that's that's actually a

1063
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: good point. And as one of the more obscure red

1064
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 2: flags is that if somebody bombards you with like ruling

1065
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: long text messages or they like write these really long rants.

1066
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 2: And I say that hesitantly because you know, I have

1067
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,720
Speaker 2: a tendency to be a bit long winded, but anything

1068
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 2: like that where you know, you wonder, how can they

1069
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 2: possibly put so much time and energy into this? Is

1070
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 2: it red flagging?

1071
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,319
Speaker 4: But that's bombarding that's consuming your time as well. I

1072
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 4: mean it's that's like, yeah, more of that same thing.

1073
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much more that I know now

1074
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 2: now that I also understand my own wiring better, I

1075
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 2: think I'm extremely prone to getting mentally exhausted in that

1076
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: kind of a way because I'm one of those people

1077
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,479
Speaker 2: that gets mentally exhausted by social interactions. So just being

1078
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 2: around other people and having to interact with other people

1079
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: is exhausting. And then layer on all of his bullshit

1080
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,320
Speaker 2: just in my face constantly. It's like I was more

1081
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 2: and more weakened such that my defenses were down and

1082
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 2: it was harder to not do what he wanted me

1083
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 2: to do, and it seems preposterous that I would be like, Okay, fine,

1084
00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 2: let's get married. But at the time, it just it

1085
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: was what he convinced me to do, and he acted

1086
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 2: like it would make you know. At the time, you know,

1087
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,800
Speaker 2: he had this story that he somehow had all this

1088
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,919
Speaker 2: money that he was about to get and then you'd

1089
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: be able to transfer it to me, and but it

1090
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 2: went beyond that. By this time. He also had me

1091
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 2: really scared. I think your mom said something about this

1092
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 2: in her story, where you get to the point where

1093
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 2: you think they are always being watched by a bunch

1094
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,000
Speaker 2: of people, and so all your behavior and everything is

1095
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 2: being watched and you're being judged. And he made it

1096
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 2: seem like I was in danger, and so I'm just

1097
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 2: hyper on edge. And he said that like if I

1098
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 2: married him, I would be protected and this would all

1099
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: just be so much easier and we'll just get it

1100
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 2: all done faster, basically, and I was I just was like,

1101
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: all right, fine, you know, And we went to Sydney

1102
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 2: Hall and got the marriage license, and I remember being

1103
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 2: there and having this feeling of like just feeling sick

1104
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 2: about it because I remember thinking I'd be so embarrassed

1105
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,959
Speaker 2: if I ran into somebody I knew and what would

1106
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 2: I say. And also just noticing all the other couples

1107
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 2: there that are like in love and holding hands and

1108
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 2: they're so excited getting their marriage license and I'm sitting

1109
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 2: there like, ugh, after you get a marriage license, youhet

1110
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:36,840
Speaker 2: away twenty four hours. So twenty four hours later we

1111
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 2: went to you know, like a whatever. I had just

1112
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,480
Speaker 2: found a person who would do it, and we got married.

1113
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,279
Speaker 3: I noticed that even in the marriage process, like the

1114
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,640
Speaker 3: person marrying you pretended to be the witness and signed

1115
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 3: the paper, Like, yeah, these people are just always pushing

1116
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 3: the boundaries.

1117
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,760
Speaker 1: There's all these little things that like don't.

1118
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 3: Even seem like that I get a deal at the time,

1119
00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 3: but they're able to manipulate people and following the rules.

1120
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's just little things that add up over time.

1121
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,800
Speaker 2: I think he was manipulating a bunch of other people

1122
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 2: at the same time as me. You know, some I'm

1123
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: almost positive about. But but yeah, he was really really

1124
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 2: good at what he did, and I think he's manipulating

1125
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 2: some not just women, but none too.

1126
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 4: I think that's an important point too, because that's something

1127
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:23,240
Speaker 4: that kind of gets lost in my mom's story as well.

1128
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:28,760
Speaker 4: People will assume that she was just this global person

1129
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 4: who was the sole victim. And then if you actually

1130
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,640
Speaker 4: look at the history of our cult leader, he has

1131
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:36,120
Speaker 4: done this.

1132
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot we called him chat.

1133
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 4: He's done this to so many people, including men, and

1134
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 4: he's swindled so many people out of their money and

1135
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,239
Speaker 4: in so many different ways. And that's the thing, Like,

1136
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 4: it's never just one person, even when that's the only

1137
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 4: like public facing story, right, you.

1138
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: Know, and they do it to other in tall didn't

1139
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: accomplish people. So I mean, there's some that I know

1140
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 2: for sure about, like the guy nozine and my story,

1141
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 2: who he conned him out of not nearly as much,

1142
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 2: but canned him out of money. But there are other

1143
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 2: people involved in the story too, like a real estate

1144
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 2: broker who if I had to make a bet, I

1145
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 2: would say definitely he got a bunch of money out

1146
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 2: of that guy. I just know it because that guy

1147
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 2: doesn't want to talk to He was a really nice guy,

1148
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 2: but doesn't want to talk to me. The people when

1149
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 2: the show that ended up being called Bad Eating was

1150
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: being made, they reached out to him and they wanted

1151
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 2: to talk to him, and he was like, no buck off,

1152
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,240
Speaker 2: go away. And I think that reputationally it would be

1153
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 2: bad for him if he fell for con because he's

1154
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 2: a real estate broker, a very high network people. But

1155
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 2: that just the way he responded made me think that

1156
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:49,439
Speaker 2: for sure he got con. Yeah.

1157
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 3: I mean, you guys were on the top level of

1158
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 3: the secret floor at Tiffany's while he's getting champagne everywhere,

1159
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 3: like he was just scamming everybody. He's comfortable everywhere. You know,

1160
00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 3: scammer's got a skin. So here you are.

1161
00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, to wrap a part one here, what was the

1162
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 4: total approximately money that this man scam do out of

1163
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 4: In the end.

1164
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,400
Speaker 2: I wouldn't know the exact total because, especially early on,

1165
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 2: a lot of it was a form of cash. But

1166
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 2: in the end I think we got over two million dollars.

1167
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 2: It's not like it was my money. You know, I

1168
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 2: didn't have money in the bank. I wasn't living large,

1169
00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 2: I didn't have a savings account, I didn't have assets,

1170
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 2: I didn't have investments. So yeah, it was pretty bad.

1171
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 4: And next week we will talk more about that process.

1172
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 4: And that concludes Part one. Comeback next week for Part

1173
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 4: two with Sarma. There's so much more to get him in.

1174
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,280
Speaker 3: We barely jumped, We barely jumped off the legs.

1175
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 4: We could have done triple the amount of interviewing that

1176
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 4: we did do. So, Megan, do you think that you

1177
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 4: would join mister Fox?

1178
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 3: So to be clear, if this is your first episode.

1179
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 3: At the end of episodes, we ask if I would

1180
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 3: join the cult because I'm susceptible. So what I joined

1181
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 3: mister Fox's cult? Probably hard tell me more, all of

1182
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 3: the coincidences, him being friends with the celebrity that I

1183
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 3: was like crushing on, him being funny my biggest weakness,

1184
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 3: and then this twisted, warped sense of destiny, you know,

1185
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,280
Speaker 3: proving myself tests well, it's a trope, that is just

1186
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 3: Megan tumbles down the rabbit and there she goes. So

1187
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 3: I thankfully, and I'm not as good at procuring money

1188
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 3: from people, thank god, because otherwise.

1189
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I do know you well, it would all

1190
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 1: be gone, Yeah, it'll be gone.

1191
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah. Reading this story, I was like, I could

1192
00:59:58,520 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 4: definitely end.

1193
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 3: Up in this situation totally. I mean, you have to.

1194
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 3: You have to be pretty self aware and know that

1195
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 3: most of us could.

1196
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: Most of us could.

1197
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 4: But I think like the type of manipulator that he

1198
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 4: was where he's like, I mean, I'm a sucker for

1199
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,040
Speaker 4: someone who's like funny on the internet, who seems like

1200
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 4: really confident and like is gonna help, you know, because

1201
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 4: I'm a career bitch, you know, like that's my thing,

1202
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 4: that's my weakness. Like if you, I mean, I have many,

1203
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 4: but if it was like, what's the one thing that

1204
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 4: motivates you, it's like, oh, well, getting my you know,

1205
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 4: these like artistic projects that I dreamed about, like getting

1206
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 4: them off the ground. So if someone was like, hey,

1207
01:00:35,480 --> 01:00:37,880
Speaker 4: I'm gonna like make all your dreams come true and

1208
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,120
Speaker 4: you just have to let me borrow two thousand dollars first.

1209
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, But to be honest with you, having read

1210
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:48,640
Speaker 3: the book, I'm so much less likely to ever fall

1211
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:49,439
Speaker 3: into such a thing.

1212
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:54,600
Speaker 4: These stories, these stories matter, They inoculate us, yes, at

1213
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 4: least to some extent truly, So anyway, I please read

1214
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 4: the book.

1215
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 3: Please join us next week for part two to rate

1216
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 3: us five stars if you're so inclined, and as always,

1217
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 3: remember to follow your gut, watch out for Rad Flagg's,

1218
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 3: and never ever trust me. Hey bye. This has been

1219
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 3: an exactly right production hosted by me Lola Blanc and

1220
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 3: Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer is G. Holly.

1221
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

1222
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 3: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

1223
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 3: is Patrick Kuttner.

1224
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1225
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 3: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgareth Georgia Hartstark

1226
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 3: and Daniel Kramer. You can find us on Instagram at

1227
01:01:36,480 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 3: trust Me podcast or on TikTok at trust Me Coult podcast.

1228
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,080
Speaker 3: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation.

1229
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,440
Speaker 3: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

1230
01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 4: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1231
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts,