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Speaker 1: Bodybuts. But Joseph Scott Morgan, it's really easy, Dave, for

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Speaker 1: someone like me, after all of these years, you know,

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Speaker 1: to pick up stones and start throwing them at the

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Speaker 1: people that worked this case all these many years ago. Okay,

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think that many times in the

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Speaker 1: world that we live in, it's so dominated about technology

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Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in right now, people will default too.

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Speaker 1: They'll say, well, they didn't have access to the technology

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Speaker 1: that we have. As far as crime solving goes, technology

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Speaker 1: has nothing to do with this. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: and this is body back. This is I started working

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Speaker 1: in forensics back in the eighties, Dave. The same principles

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Speaker 1: still hold true that held true during that time period.

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Speaker 1: There's certain things that we do at a base level

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Speaker 1: where where you have an expectation of security of the

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Speaker 1: scene because you don't want to lose you don't want

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Speaker 1: to lose anything that's a scene, and you don't want

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Speaker 1: to introduce or add something to the scene that should

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Speaker 1: not have been there.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Joe, I am so thankful that we have the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to dig into this story one last time. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about the Jean Bonne Ramsey case. Now, we did

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Speaker 2: talk about it during the Christmas holiday and the Netflix

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Speaker 2: documentary and what came out in that, but there were

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Speaker 2: a couple of things that we missed that I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to cover. And I'm just so thankful that you

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Speaker 2: agreed to do this, Joe, because right at the start,

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Speaker 2: I was really concerned about the scene of the crime

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Speaker 2: and what was done to it. My first thought was,

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Speaker 2: why are there people in the house besides the police?

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Speaker 2: That was just number one right out of the gate

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Speaker 2: on the earliest coverage of this story, because in everything,

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Speaker 2: all of us know you need to get everybody out

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Speaker 2: so you can just we're gonna be able to investigate properly.

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Speaker 2: Starting at square one, You've got all these people in

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Speaker 2: the house making food and everything else and wiping up

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Speaker 2: table calls. I mean, it's ridiculous what happened. And I'm

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Speaker 2: not even a cop, but the fact that police allowed

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Speaker 2: that to take place, shame on them, Shame on everybody involved.

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Speaker 2: That should have never happened, but then it has. And

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Speaker 2: the first thing you do, because you've got people milling around,

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Speaker 2: you need to give them something to do. Well, why

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Speaker 2: don't y'all take a good look around the house. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just go looking. And John Ramsey goes straight to a

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Speaker 2: place you would not normally get to in that house.

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Speaker 2: You have to go downstairs and through, you know, to

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Speaker 2: this area they referred to as a wine cellar. But

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a wine cellar. It was just a you know,

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Speaker 2: a downstairs area and they and he goes because of

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Speaker 2: her body, now if you.

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Speaker 1: Guess, and yeah, we have to keep in mind that

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Speaker 1: there's like another area adjacent to it that they call,

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Speaker 1: I think they called the train room. Yeah, and and

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Speaker 1: and that's where he actually and you know, Dave.

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Speaker 2: They I'm so glad you said that, Joe I forgot

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Speaker 2: about the train room.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and and that plays into it, you know, which

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Speaker 1: we'll get to, uh with marks that are found in

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Speaker 1: her body. But you know that when this they'll passo

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Speaker 1: former l Passo County investigator that keep in mind this

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Speaker 1: person is different than the Bolder police department. This individual said, well,

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Speaker 1: it's a lack of experience on the Bolder police departments,

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Speaker 1: you know, part because they didn't know how to how

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Speaker 1: to handle this thing. But you've got this this one

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Speaker 1: investigator that is handling the case. And she, you know,

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Speaker 1: she famously went on air and made all of these

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Speaker 1: assations about the case and went on and on. And

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Speaker 1: she's in charge at the scene. You were talking about

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Speaker 1: John Ramsey. She looks at him as if I need

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Speaker 1: to get this guy out of my hair or whatever reason.

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Speaker 1: She said this, You and your friend go search the

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Speaker 1: rest of the house. And you know, for me, when

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Speaker 1: somebody I hear somebody say that, you know, it's like

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Speaker 1: that commercial about you know, the little elderly women talk

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Speaker 1: about where she says, I unfriend you like that, and

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Speaker 1: they're talking about the Facebook and and the one lady says,

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Speaker 1: that's not how this works. That's not how any of

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Speaker 1: this works. And you're absolutely right. You do not ask

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Speaker 1: the father of a missing six year old while you're

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Speaker 1: sitting in the house as a police officer, to have

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Speaker 1: them go search the house. Now that that's not what

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Speaker 1: you do. If you don't have enough resources, there's other

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Speaker 1: post certified police officers in this county that you can

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Speaker 1: reach out to. Hey, we need help, send help now,

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Speaker 1: and we need to be able to canvass the area.

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Speaker 1: We need to be able to secure the scene. You're

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Speaker 1: going to rely on a dad and his friend to

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Speaker 1: go search the house. And as you mentioned, you know,

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Speaker 1: when they make their way down into the basement of

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Speaker 1: this home, this labyrinth that you have to go through,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's when you know John actually finds Jean

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Speaker 1: Benet down in that area and by Duby. As a

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Speaker 1: result of him finding her, what does he do, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's what you would I think that most reasonable people

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Speaker 1: would think would a father would do. He picks his

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Speaker 1: child up, removes her from this scene. Now, if that

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Speaker 1: had been say a police officer, they may have walked over,

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Speaker 1: checked for a pulse. They see that she's cyanotic or blue,

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Speaker 1: she might be cool to the touch. Guess what they're

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Speaker 1: not going to do with body. This is no longer

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Speaker 1: a rescue. This is no longer trying to do compressions

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Speaker 1: on her chest. This is leaving her in place. And

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Speaker 1: it's at that moment in time, if it had not

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Speaker 1: already gone off the rails, this is where the whole

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Speaker 1: thing kind of you know, really begins to take a

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Speaker 1: turn for the worst possible case scenario here, because now

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Speaker 1: you've got dad entering into this environment. Maybe in a

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Speaker 1: reactive moment, he grabs his daughter, his daughter's remains. He

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Speaker 1: thinks there's a chance that she can be saved, and

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Speaker 1: of course she's beyond beyond that at this point. Tom.

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Speaker 1: But because for whatever reason, this detective directs him to

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Speaker 1: do this. Yeah, granted he found the body along with

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Speaker 1: his buddy found the body, but you know, more more

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Speaker 1: harm was done than certainly good David.

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Speaker 2: Well, Joe, all I'm thinking, okay, is you sent him

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Speaker 2: to go look for the child. In his mind's eye,

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Speaker 2: if there was already a cover up and they had

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Speaker 2: already staged the body, you know, in the basement to

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Speaker 2: make it look as if she had been murdered, sending

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Speaker 2: John Ramsey or anybody else non police oriented to go

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Speaker 2: down there. All they're thinking is I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: straight and I'm fixing this because now whatever they had

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Speaker 2: staged before that had to remain static. Huh. I can

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Speaker 2: get rid of all the evidence right now. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to rip off the duct tape. I'm going to undo

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Speaker 2: this Garrett around her neck. I mean, I'm evidence is

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Speaker 2: all gone, every bit of it is totally wipe from

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Speaker 2: the crime scene. Now they have to try to piece

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Speaker 2: it back together to find out how was she strangled.

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Speaker 2: We got the rope, well, what was it was nylon.

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Speaker 2: H there had been.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a woven it's a woven nylon rope.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it was tied into a knot in a

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Speaker 2: certain way. But then the gear they was actually a

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Speaker 2: stick something used from Patsy Ramsey's hobby kit was used

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Speaker 2: to turn it and it broke.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a groat. Uh. Yeah, some people say garrot garroat.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it's used as this this weapon, and it is

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Speaker 1: a weapon. Groats are known as weapons. That's how they're defined.

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Speaker 1: Did you know and here's an interesting little aside. Did

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Speaker 1: you know that the garrotting or groating of individuals for

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Speaker 1: tom I think it may have been in France. I

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Speaker 1: can't remember where specifically that this was an execution method.

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Speaker 1: Do you know that now they used to do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they would. They would take an individual and you can

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Speaker 1: see wood carvings of these they're out there, lithiographs or

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Speaker 1: whatever they're called. I can't remember. Where the individual is

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Speaker 1: seated in a chair and bounds like their hands are

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Speaker 1: bound behind them. It's a straight back chair in like

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Speaker 1: a courtyard where the public education execution would take place,

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Speaker 1: and they would put a garrot groat around the neck

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Speaker 1: of the individual and turn it from the back like

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Speaker 1: this and slowly kill the person. In public views, it's

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Speaker 1: an agonizing way to die because with every turn of

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Speaker 1: that thing, you are exerting more and more pressure. You know,

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Speaker 1: you begin to see the tongue balls, the eyes balls.

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Speaker 1: They become cyanautic, all these things you know now. Years

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Speaker 1: ago I worked a series as kind of a I

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Speaker 1: hate to say this, diminishing diminishing the lives of the

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Speaker 1: individuals were killed, but it was like a short series

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Speaker 1: of serial killings. It's like six victims to this guy's count,

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Speaker 1: and he was killing prostitutes. And he used to corot

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Speaker 1: after he had drugged him. And he had multiple places

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Speaker 1: where he would reset the garrot and realign it. And

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Speaker 1: his was made out of wire, by the way, and

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Speaker 1: he would take it and he would turn it and

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Speaker 1: they would get to the point of losing consciousness, he'd

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Speaker 1: release it and then he'd reinitiate the thing. So make

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Speaker 1: no mistake when you see, this is not like just

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Speaker 1: grabbing a cord. Okay, this is not like just grabbing

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Speaker 1: a cord where you're going to wrap it around so

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Speaker 1: our piece of rope or a coat hanger or a weapon,

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Speaker 1: as we say, a weapon of convenience. This is thought out.

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Speaker 1: This is something that was used in order to to

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Speaker 1: elicit terror upon the victim. I have no doubt in

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Speaker 1: my mind this was a sadistic killing. And the thing

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Speaker 1: that's fascinating about this, Dave, is that you know, John

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Speaker 1: Ramsay said in his statement that if I remember correctly

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Speaker 1: and I think not statement, this was in the interview

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Speaker 1: when he saw this thing, it was tied so tight

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Speaker 1: he couldn't he couldn't unbind it. And this is what

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Speaker 1: is referred to as a very complex knot. That's why

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Speaker 1: that they believed that whoever fixed this thing had experience

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Speaker 1: with tie knots and complex knots. That's that has always

186
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Speaker 1: that's been one of these things that has rung through

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Speaker 1: And when you see her autopsy pictures, you can see

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Speaker 1: this this uh, the complexity of this thing, that ligature

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Speaker 1: that's used in this case, Given the complexity of this knot,

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Speaker 1: I hope that retrospectively, due care was taken with this thing,

191
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Speaker 1: because you know what it can offer up. It can

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Speaker 1: offer up DNA because for every turn and twist of

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Speaker 1: that knot, if the individual is not gloved They're touching

194
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Speaker 1: multiple surfaces on this thing as it's being constructed, and

195
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Speaker 1: the paintbrush stick thing is that goes without saying, obviously,

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Speaker 1: but just the surfaces of that knot and when you

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Speaker 1: think about the complexity of it, that would require this

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Speaker 1: thing to be manipulated to a great degree. So I'm

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Speaker 1: wondering if due care was taken with that ligature itself.

200
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Speaker 2: When I was hearing them talk about the ligature and

201
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Speaker 2: the rot I remember John Wayne Gacy doing the same thing,

202
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,840
Speaker 2: using it to turn and torture. You know that that

203
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Speaker 2: was the first one I'd actually heard of, and then

204
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Speaker 2: seeing this one, and all I could think of is

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Speaker 2: this is something that required time and preparation. So with

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Speaker 2: the time of preparation that went into if it was

207
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Speaker 2: somebody who just snuck in in the middle of the

208
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Speaker 2: night and was able to do this, you realize that

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Speaker 2: they have to know the building enough to know where

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Speaker 2: they can access the house in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 2: They have to be able to find themselves walking around

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Speaker 2: the house without waking anybody up through this maze of places.

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Speaker 2: Then they have to be able to get her out

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Speaker 2: of her bed, take her downstairs, and kill her and

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Speaker 2: then they've done. They came in, and they've come into

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Speaker 2: the house and killed her in the middle of the night,

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Speaker 2: and then bother to leave a ransom note. Why would

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Speaker 2: they leave a ransom note, Joe, if they've killed her

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Speaker 2: and left her behind. If you're going to leave a

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Speaker 2: ransom note, there would have to be the child would

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Speaker 2: have to be gone for it mean anything. And since

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Speaker 2: the child is already dead and left behind, why leave her?

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Speaker 2: Why would anybody leave a ransom note? You have no ransom.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, the only thing I could really

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Speaker 1: think a brother was the fact that somebody was trying

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Speaker 1: to put somebody off scent if you will, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: to try to misdirect you see that, Yeah, well, to

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Speaker 1: try to yeah, to try to sell people on the

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Speaker 1: fact that she's elsewhere. But why would you leave the

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Speaker 1: body behind? That's what I don't I don't I don't

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Speaker 1: understand that. And you know, two point three relative to

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Speaker 1: this reporter's assessment, you know, she she had alluded to

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Speaker 1: the fact that that this detective Bob Whitson, you know,

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Speaker 1: it said that that he asked for handwriting from both

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Speaker 1: John and Patsy, and which you know he received back

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Speaker 1: in uh, you know, from two notebook pads, and you

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Speaker 1: could see those on the documentary they showed they demonstrated

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Speaker 1: those pads. I'd never seen those before. So I'm with

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Speaker 1: her on this, you know, which was you know, keep

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Speaker 1: keep in mind, this is this is prior to the

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Speaker 1: days of texting, you know, or prior to the days

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Speaker 1: of people sitting down. I mean, I still, like, Lord knows,

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Speaker 1: my precious wife, she she can't live without an actual calendar.

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Speaker 1: She has physically has a calendar. She writes everything in

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Speaker 1: each day. And so but you know, that's that's the

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Speaker 1: way things have, you know, were always done. You had

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Speaker 1: a notebook that you would write and enter things into,

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Speaker 1: and so that's where they get that would be referred to. Again,

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Speaker 1: I think we just mentioned this in one of our

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Speaker 1: actually one of our recent episodes. But you know, this

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Speaker 1: is where it plays into getting an exemplar of writing.

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Speaker 1: So you have a real you have a real time

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Speaker 1: exis impl are or an example of what an individual's

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Speaker 1: writing looks like in the course of day to day life. Here,

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Speaker 1: you're not it's not a dictated exemplar where you ask

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Speaker 1: someone you dictate to them what is written. You know,

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Speaker 1: in a ransom note and you dictate to them and say,

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Speaker 1: write this statement down. This is a real life exemplar

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Speaker 1: of how they normally write. So the idea is that

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Speaker 1: you take and compare what you see in the notebook

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Speaker 1: to what to what you have in this ransom note,

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Speaker 1: and are there any similarities, you know, relative to this.

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Speaker 1: But when I've always been fascinated by the fact that

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Speaker 1: they believe that the notebook that the note was written

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Speaker 1: in is was property of the of the ramses, and

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Speaker 1: that it was physically there and it was actually discovered,

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Speaker 1: I believe you know too, to have probably what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as kind of a pressure connection where if any

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Speaker 1: of you, any of you guys you know know this,

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Speaker 1: if you say, for instance, you've seen it in movies,

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Speaker 1: it's an old movie trope with somebody will write a

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Speaker 1: note and they'll rip the sheet out, and then you

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Speaker 1: can take a pencil, you know, and scratch over the

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Speaker 1: surface of it, and all of a sudden, hidden writing

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Speaker 1: writing begins to appear. You can actually see the pressure

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Speaker 1: through the page. That means that somebody's leaning forward, pressing

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Speaker 1: down with the writing device, and they create, you know,

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Speaker 1: these little creases in a note and so that note

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Speaker 1: would be taken away. And Dave, this note is so

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Speaker 1: my god, it's so extensive because you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: know about for you, but you know, you always think

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Speaker 1: about you know, I have a I will kill everybody here,

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Speaker 1: provide this money and drop it off at this address.

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Speaker 1: That's not That's not what we're talking about here. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about something that's highly complex. You know, they're they're

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Speaker 1: establishing who we are. We're part of a foreign fact.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, foreign faction God in Boulder, Colorado. I'm

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Speaker 1: not saying that foreigner a university, but I'm just saying,

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Speaker 1: out of all the people in the world, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're going to show up and yeah, I mean people

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Speaker 1: have said that, you know John, you know, John's very

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Speaker 1: wealthy man. He's involved in software. You know, I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: that you know, he's come across. But you know, there's

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Speaker 1: very specific details. I think the thing that really, you know,

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Speaker 1: caught people's eye. Dave and I guess we're number three

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Speaker 1: or number four here, you know in this reveal for her,

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Speaker 1: for this reporter is the one hundred and eighteen thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars you know why number? Yeah, well that that is

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Speaker 1: an odd number. Why aren't you going to ask for

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Speaker 1: a quarter of a million dollars if you're talking about

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Speaker 1: you're talking about dude, that's a multimillionaire. Yea, all right?

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Speaker 1: Why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars? Why why not

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Speaker 1: a round figure like two hundred thousand, quarter of a

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Speaker 1: mill Why not five hundred thousand? Why not a million?

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Speaker 1: You know, if you're going to dude, if you're going

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Speaker 1: to run the risk, because kidnapping is a federal offense

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Speaker 1: and you will get life imprisonment for it. If dude,

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Speaker 1: if you're going to roll the bones here man, go

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Speaker 1: all in. Why one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars? Specific that? Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: But who knows that information?

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Speaker 2: There's something about the note I want to share with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I looked this up at the because I was curious

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Speaker 2: as to win was Patsy Ramsey born. And the reason

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Speaker 2: is in the early seventies, Patricia Hurst was kidnapped by

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Speaker 2: the Symbionese Liberation Army, yes, the SLA, and they kidnapped her,

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Speaker 2: they held her, and eventually, after long, in a period

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Speaker 2: of time, she had started to go along with them.

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Speaker 2: She was on camera robbing a bank has the gun

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Speaker 2: in her hand, and they said she's full on participating

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Speaker 2: in the robbery. It was a big deal in the

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Speaker 2: early seventies, mid seventies. Well for Pats Ramsey being born

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Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six, she's going to be eighteen to

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Speaker 2: twenty years old when the whole Patricia thing's going on,

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Speaker 2: Patricia Hurst deal. So when I saw the note s

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Speaker 2: Victory SBTC, SLA Simboni's Liberation Army SBTC, so any in

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Speaker 2: my brain, I'm thinking, why is she writ OGNI she

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Speaker 2: But why is the kidnapper specifically writing to John and

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Speaker 2: not both of them? The Ramseys are a couple, this

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Speaker 2: is their child. She's singling out of John because in

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Speaker 2: my mind she's writing, I'm and she's dead and gone now.

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Speaker 2: And I know that there are people who believe that whatever.

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Speaker 2: I don't buy the note, Joe, the ransom note is

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Speaker 2: too long, too specific. One hundred and eighteen thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: That was his bonus that year, which, my goodness, I've

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Speaker 2: never seen a bonus tempercent in my life.

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Speaker 1: And who has who has specific who has specific knowledge

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Speaker 1: of how much? Now I got to tell you, John

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Speaker 1: Ramsey does not strike me as somebody that would go

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Speaker 1: out to a bar, yeah, and sit there and say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: everybody drinks on me. I got one hundred and eighteen

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars bonus this year. Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: He seems like the kund he's a business guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, he seems like the kind of person he's

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Speaker 1: going to know more than he's revealing. And he's certainly

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Speaker 1: not going to tell you, you know, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: revealing how much money you got for bonuses? Right up

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Speaker 1: there were revealing your bathroom habits. It's just certain things

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Speaker 1: that you don't talk about, you know. And who would

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Speaker 1: have access to that information? Well, obviously those that are

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Speaker 1: within his very inner circle, and they hadn't been in

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Speaker 1: Boulder a long long time. Who in their inner circle

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Speaker 1: of friends would he have felt comfortable enough with with

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Speaker 1: sharing the fact that he got one hundred and eighteen

355
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Speaker 1: thousand dollars bonus. Well you step out of that circle

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Speaker 1: and you begin to think, well, who who might know

357
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Speaker 1: at work? Well, somebody's got to cut the check, right,

358
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Speaker 1: So who at work would know that that he got

359
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Speaker 1: one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars bonus? And listen there's

360
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Speaker 1: jealous people at work. The Lord knows you've encountered them.

361
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Speaker 1: I've encountered and they wish you ill will would somebody

362
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Speaker 1: be willing to go to that length to do this

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Speaker 1: kind of horrible thing to this little kid because of

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Speaker 1: the fact that he got one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars?

365
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Speaker 1: Is that that is money the motivation? Because if money

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Speaker 1: is the motivation, why are you going to leave the

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Speaker 1: kidnapped subject in the house because there was never any

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Speaker 1: intention to collect money.

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Speaker 2: Right because the child is left behind dead. The reason

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Speaker 2: you would pay the ransom is so your child has

371
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Speaker 2: returned to you alive, but you've left the child dead

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Speaker 2: in the house. There's no reason for you really think

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Speaker 2: they're going to just run down to the bank and

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Speaker 2: get one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars out and give

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Speaker 2: it to you without checking the house, without looking around

376
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Speaker 2: the house. But on top of that, Joe, think about this,

377
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Speaker 2: who writes down this is actually in a note? A

378
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: lot of people don't catch on. Make sure that you

379
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Speaker 2: bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you

380
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Speaker 2: get home, you will put the money in a brown

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Speaker 2: paper bag. Well, what bring it? Who actually thinks like

382
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Speaker 2: that to write that down in a note, bank's on

383
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: it big enough to put the money in. It's like,

384
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Speaker 2: this is so overly specific that you had the time

385
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Speaker 2: to write this out. If you're in a hurry. You

386
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Speaker 2: came to kidnap a child and you just accidentally killed her.

387
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Speaker 2: Now you're leaving her behind. Why are you bothering over

388
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: the note. The longer you're there, the more chances you

389
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Speaker 2: have to be caught the ransom. The reason for you

390
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Speaker 2: getting money is dead. Get out of the house. Now,

391
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Speaker 2: why are you leaving a note?

392
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Speaker 1: I don't understand how much space can one hundred and

393
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Speaker 1: eighteen thousand dollars take up if you're getting denominations of

394
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 1: one hundred dollars bills. Yeah, I can't imagine it's going

395
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 1: to be. You know, it's not like you're walking, you know,

396
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 1: walking down the street like Scrooge McDuck and you've got

397
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Speaker 1: gold coins falling out of your wheelbarrow, your gold wheelbar

398
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: It's not like that. It's just the whole thing, you know,

399
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: kind of you know, stinks to high heaven. Yeah, but

400
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: then you you know, when you consider all of that.

401
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: I will call you between eight am and ten am tomorrow,

402
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: the delivery will be exhausting. I advise you to get

403
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: rest be rested, John, I mean Joe. Really it says

404
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: that in this note the delivery will be exhausting, so

405
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: I advise you to be rested. The whole thing just reeks,

406
00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: and it's so long and so convoluted. This makes no sense.

407
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 1: And if who has the again I use the term

408
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: intestinal fortitude because you have to have nervous Still, let's

409
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: just let's just say, all right, for grins and giggles,

410
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: that we are a malevolent individual that shows up at

411
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:21,879
Speaker 1: this house, okay, and you have the intestinal fortitude to

412
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: take a notepad that allegedly belonged in the house and

413
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: sit down where people sit down to consume breakfast. I

414
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: guess maybe in that location, and you sit there and

415
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: you take the time. You know, do this person show

416
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: up with their own pen or do they borrow this

417
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: as well? And they sit there and construct this note,

418
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: and then we'll take it off, and we're going to

419
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: take it and put it here on the tread of

420
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: the staircase immediately, you know, on the other side of

421
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: the wall here, who has that? That requires nerves of steel?

422
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: Because I don't care how big a house is. If

423
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: there's something going on within a house at night, I'll

424
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: give you for instance, my wife hears everything. I mean

425
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: she does. I don't wake up for thunder. You know,

426
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 1: why did you hear that storm last night? Hunt? No,

427
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 1: I didn't. Oh my god, I was up all night.

428
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: I started to wake you up. Well why didn't you?

429
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: I couldn't. You were asleep. I can get you wake up.

430
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: You know, you know what I'm saying. You know, I

431
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: guess you know. You could say, well, yeah, they're isolated

432
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: in the house. They're bettering the master is upstairs. They're

433
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: not going to hear this. But it would take nerves

434
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: of still to sit down there and write this note

435
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: and then deposit this thing on the staircase, which for

436
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: me is is quite quite interesting and just you know,

437
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: maybe we've beat this dead horse. I don't know, but

438
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: it's just the fact that the length of the thing

439
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: and the specificity of it, and then this kind of

440
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,679
Speaker 1: drawn out narrative you know, that runs through it, identifying.

441
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: Your southern good sense.

442
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: Come on, I know, I mean, what does that even mean?

443
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: I don't know.

444
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: Why does somebody put that in there?

445
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: I know it's it's it's bizarre. I mean, now, I

446
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: guess you could say they are aware that he has

447
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: recently relocated to Colorado, and they're they're trying to hone

448
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: in on that specific detail of his life. Maybe it's

449
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: an indication that they know about him, they know where

450
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: he comes from. Okay, maybe it's alluding to that. I

451
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: have no idea, but for me, uh, this individual that

452
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: wrote this first off had to have nerves of steel,

453
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: and then secondly, they also have to have pretty substantial

454
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: constitution as well, because they're going to go downstairs assuming

455
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: that the same person that wrote the note had something

456
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: to do with Jean Benet's death, which, of course I

457
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: believe that you're going to torture and yes, I will

458
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: use that term torture and murder by not only strangling, uh,

459
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: this child, but beating her to the point where her

460
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: skull fractures. Dave, and that's another point that that the

461
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: author of this article from Busfeed, you know, made a

462
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: point of that, you know, uh, that it was at

463
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: that point in time that they they realized because you know,

464
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: for the longest time they had just said that she

465
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: had been strangled. No one ever said anything about this insult.

466
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: The show, Yeah, that she had sustained well, yeah, I knew.

467
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:51,520
Speaker 1: Well it was famously it was famously brought about in

468
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: that the infamous CBS show, you know, because they did

469
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: these demonstrations doctor Werner Spitz, who and we we remember

470
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: we actually did a memoriam of episode of Bodybacks when,

471
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, because Verner Spitz died, him and him and

472
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: Cyril died pretty close to one another, and I talked

473
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: about it. Verner Spitz is he's one of the godfathers.

474
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: He preceded doctor Weck. He's even in an older generation.

475
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: And you know, he wrote the definitive text on on forensics,

476
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: on forensic pathology, and you know, they talked about the

477
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: utilization of potentially I think that their conclusion was a

478
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: flashlight or a cylindrical like object in order to generate

479
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: this kind of And what was really ghastly about that

480
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: show is that they were attempting to say that jam

481
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: Manet's brother had something to do with this. And I

482
00:30:53,760 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: think probably the most the most repugnant part of that

483
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: program was the fact that they brought in a nine

484
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: year old child, I know, to do the demonstration where

485
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: they had a mocked up skull and they and you

486
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: can go on line and see it, and it was

487
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: it was really in poor taste. As far as I'm concerned,

488
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: this is nothing I would ever want to involve myself in.

489
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: Where you know this, You've got this little boy, an actor,

490
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: I guess, that's raining down blows on this facsimile of

491
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: a skull that actually is in jail so that it

492
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: mimics tissue, and he's driving this thing down onto you know,

493
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: onto the the you know, the pretend body here.

494
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: It seems like something you would see on hard copy

495
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 2: in the late eighties, you know.

496
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was in really poor taste, very poor taste.

497
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: I can't you know, I can't imagine, you know, being

498
00:31:55,320 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: a parent and watching this thing and know what's what

499
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,680
Speaker 1: they're they're angling toward towards this idea that the nine

500
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: year old brother did this, and of course they you know,

501
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: CBS wound up paying the piper for that, and you know,

502
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: I often thought, I often thought that this is just

503
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: my musing here. I really thought that maybe CBS was

504
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: going all in on this idea that the family had

505
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 1: something to do with this, and so they thought, yeah,

506
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: we're going to run the risk of getting sued if

507
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: they sue us, we're not going to settle, which they

508
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: wound up doing. We're not going to settle, and we're

509
00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: going to wind up having depositions. And that's really the

510
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: way I had looked at this early on. Of course,

511
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: they wound up wound up settling, you know, this particular case,

512
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: and it was just the number was eye popping, you know,

513
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: just absolutely eye popping. And I don't know what they

514
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: eventually settled for. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this his

515
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: body bags,