1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,000
Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

2
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:10,000
Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stop? Mom never told you?

3
00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: From House top works dot com, Hey, welcome the podcast.

4
00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,599
Speaker 1: This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen. Big news in

5
00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,520
Speaker 1: the world of academia. Inside Higher Ed on April eighth

6
00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:30,120
Speaker 1: ten published an r fall called male Studies versus Men's Studies,

7
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,480
Speaker 1: and it covered the announcement at Wagner College and Staten Island,

8
00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 1: New York, of the creation of the Foundation for Male Studies. Yes.

9
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: According to Inside Higher, the Foundation for Male Studies is

10
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,559
Speaker 1: supposed to support a conference in a journal targeted at

11
00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,840
Speaker 1: exploring the triumphs and struggles of the x y chromosome

12
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,400
Speaker 1: of the human race without and this is the kicker here,

13
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,840
Speaker 1: without needing to contextualize their ideas as being one half

14
00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 1: of a male female binary or an offshoot of feminists theory. Now,

15
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:02,760
Speaker 1: I have to say, the first time I read that,

16
00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,840
Speaker 1: I didn't understand it. So let's talk about what male

17
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,400
Speaker 1: studies is and exactly what they might be leaving out.

18
00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:12,600
Speaker 1: Because here's the thing, there's already men's studies. Yes, men's

19
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,440
Speaker 1: studies already existed and mail and actually the head of

20
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:22,880
Speaker 1: the American Men's Studies Association turned down an opportunity to

21
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,320
Speaker 1: go speak at this announcement about the Male Studies Foundation

22
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,160
Speaker 1: because he sees it as um. He sees him as

23
00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,680
Speaker 1: coming from an ideologically different place, which they are, because

24
00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,720
Speaker 1: men's Studies, you could say, is more of um. It

25
00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,000
Speaker 1: fits more into the spectrum of gender studies where we

26
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: have women's studies and then we also have men's studies,

27
00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,720
Speaker 1: and then of course we have queer studies and gender

28
00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,600
Speaker 1: studies all of that. But Male Studies is really meant

29
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: to kind of set itself apart, to really just focus

30
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,880
Speaker 1: on just men and their struggles and what they would

31
00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 1: argue are their oppression today as a result of women's

32
00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: studies and feminism. Right, the event was a chance for

33
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,079
Speaker 1: supporters and this is a direct line to frame men

34
00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:14,560
Speaker 1: and boys as an underrepresented minority. And uh, let's the

35
00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,919
Speaker 1: founders of this department, Lionel Tiger, who's a professor of

36
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,040
Speaker 1: anthropology at Rutgers University and Christina Hoff Summers, who is

37
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:24,960
Speaker 1: a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and shore a

38
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,960
Speaker 1: book called The War Against Boys, How Misguided Feminism is

39
00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 1: harming our young men, and so they both make the

40
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,880
Speaker 1: point that feminism has hurt men and has taught women

41
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,520
Speaker 1: how to hate men, and thus men need an academic department,

42
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,440
Speaker 1: male Studies, to um teach them how to be men

43
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,359
Speaker 1: and to teach them that being a man is okay

44
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,280
Speaker 1: m hm. And another name that comes up a lot

45
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,200
Speaker 1: in this too is Paul Nathanson, who's a researcher in

46
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 1: religious studies at McGill University, and he co authored a

47
00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 1: series of books on miss Andrey, or the Hatred of

48
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,000
Speaker 1: Men and Boys, and he says that we're to the

49
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:07,720
Speaker 1: point that um feminists, though not all feminists, are perpetuating

50
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:12,200
Speaker 1: this um antagonism towards men and boys and kind of,

51
00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 1: like you said, not allowing men to really be men

52
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,040
Speaker 1: and having to constantly apologize for just their basic natures.

53
00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 1: So now that is I guess that's sort of the

54
00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:27,120
Speaker 1: difference is that men's Studies doesn't hate feminists. To put

55
00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,959
Speaker 1: it really simply, male Studies thinks that feminism has really

56
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 1: hurt society and has created something called the lace ceiling

57
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,120
Speaker 1: or the lace curtain. The lace curtain. Yeah, we've basically

58
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,160
Speaker 1: gotten to the point. They would they would argue that

59
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 1: UM instead of you know, women have broken through the

60
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 1: glass ceiling and men now have a lace curtain that

61
00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,000
Speaker 1: they can see through, but they cannot penetrate because they

62
00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:55,920
Speaker 1: are systematically oppressed. Because uh, they say that academia really

63
00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 1: favors women now, especially in UM graduate programs and on

64
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:05,520
Speaker 1: word and UM also things like affirmative affirmative action, uh

65
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,880
Speaker 1: would disfavor you know, white white men. Now, I'm just

66
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 1: gonna speak for myself. Maybe I'm speaking for Kristen too,

67
00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: but I'm trying to be very careful in laying out

68
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,479
Speaker 1: with this is. But it's I'm just gonna go and

69
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: say I have a really hard time with it, and

70
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 1: I think most women would. Let's take a quote from

71
00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,320
Speaker 1: Christina Hoff Summers, the one who wrote about the misguided feminism.

72
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 1: She writes, there are a lot of homely women in

73
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 1: women's studies. Preaching these anti male, anti sex sermons is

74
00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,120
Speaker 1: a way for them to compensate for various heartaches. They're

75
00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 1: just mad at the beautiful girls. Yeah, and that's a quote,

76
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,839
Speaker 1: um from her in Esquire. Uh So, I mean, obviously,

77
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,920
Speaker 1: like the news coverage of this has not been very

78
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,640
Speaker 1: positive at all. First of all, because you know, men's

79
00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,120
Speaker 1: studies already exist, So it definitely seems like male studies

80
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,840
Speaker 1: has a specific agenda that they are really trying to tackle.

81
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:57,920
Speaker 1: And I don't think that it's really gotten much support,

82
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 1: at least from the reports so we've seen, Molly. It

83
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,839
Speaker 1: really hasn't gotten much support from the academic world either.

84
00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,679
Speaker 1: But one magazine that has seemed to offered a little

85
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:13,400
Speaker 1: bit of support, not too surprisingly is the National Post

86
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 1: Um and their initial report on this male studies announcement,

87
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,320
Speaker 1: they kind of back up the need for you know,

88
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,760
Speaker 1: girding up men and boys in the United States because

89
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,040
Speaker 1: they say, you know, in the latest recession, And let

90
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:29,599
Speaker 1: me just preface this by saying, these are the National

91
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:31,480
Speaker 1: post statistics, and I have not double checked them, and

92
00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,440
Speaker 1: it says in the latest recession pink pink slips handed

93
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,760
Speaker 1: down in the U s went to men. Um Boys

94
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,159
Speaker 1: and young men commit suicide at a rate four times

95
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,160
Speaker 1: than that of girls and young women. Boys are far

96
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:44,960
Speaker 1: more likely to be diagnosed with a d h D

97
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,080
Speaker 1: and put on ridlin. And on a side note, boys

98
00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 1: are also more likely to be diagnosed as autistic UM

99
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: and in the United States, women outlive men by an

100
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 1: average of seven years. Uh, men are more likely to

101
00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 1: become homeless. It says at universities in the U. S.

102
00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:01,239
Speaker 1: And Canada, women make up abo six of the student

103
00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,280
Speaker 1: population and men only. Uh. I hope that would make

104
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:09,120
Speaker 1: sense if men were sixt good job doing math. Um

105
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,040
Speaker 1: and uh and it says amid this growing divide between

106
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,640
Speaker 1: the sexes of the academic resources for gender studies are

107
00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,039
Speaker 1: devoted to women. So all of that is to say

108
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 1: that basically women are becoming women are taken over. Yeah,

109
00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,719
Speaker 1: men around and pressed classes their argument. Yeah. And and

110
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:31,520
Speaker 1: Christina Hoffman, who you quoted earlier from Esquire, has said

111
00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:36,760
Speaker 1: that male studies is necessary because just as back in

112
00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, women's studies, she said, was necessary

113
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,400
Speaker 1: to bring women into uh, you know, offer them more

114
00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,839
Speaker 1: educational opportunities, bring our achievement up, and open up more

115
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,560
Speaker 1: employment opportunities for us. Um. She said, now this is

116
00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,680
Speaker 1: the time we need to do the same thing for boys,

117
00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,719
Speaker 1: because they are falling behind um in school. And uh.

118
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 1: But I would say to that, then why are you

119
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,560
Speaker 1: not looking at, you know, educating boys. You know this

120
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,120
Speaker 1: this this assumes that, um, someone's going to actually make

121
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,040
Speaker 1: it through the educational system, make it into college and

122
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,560
Speaker 1: be able to study mail studies. Well, it's not like

123
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,800
Speaker 1: you know, second way feminist one after five year olds.

124
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you go after you know who you can

125
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 1: go after. But I think that that quote more gets

126
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,600
Speaker 1: with the question why would you have male studies without

127
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 1: considering what feminism is and why you know, why you

128
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 1: would look at a male female binary. I mean, there

129
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,560
Speaker 1: seems like they're so stuck on looking just at males

130
00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 1: in a vacuum that I don't know how you could,

131
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,880
Speaker 1: you know, even make your case that men. How are

132
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,840
Speaker 1: you make your case that men are oppressed without discussing

133
00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,720
Speaker 1: why they're oppressed? And um, I mean in this issue

134
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,160
Speaker 1: of the vacuum that you bring up, I think that

135
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,360
Speaker 1: you know from our personal experience, because women studies classes

136
00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 1: do like to relate things back to personal experience. But

137
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 1: I think you know, for instance, with this podcast, we

138
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,720
Speaker 1: talk a lot about women. We've gotten cretic size for saying,

139
00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,720
Speaker 1: well you know you got you guys are talking enough

140
00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,640
Speaker 1: about men or you just man bashing. No, I mean

141
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 1: the point of the conversation is like, we want men

142
00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,640
Speaker 1: to be part of it as well, and we want

143
00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,640
Speaker 1: to study as much about why you do what you do,

144
00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,200
Speaker 1: because you know, without men, we wouldn't have a conversation.

145
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,000
Speaker 1: You know, without without men, women's studies wouldn't exist. So

146
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,520
Speaker 1: let's talk about what women studies is, just a little

147
00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,080
Speaker 1: bit and why there would be such a backlash against

148
00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,640
Speaker 1: it in the creation of male studies. Women studies started

149
00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,679
Speaker 1: in the late nineteen sixties, UM as part of, you know,

150
00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,680
Speaker 1: the the changes that were going on in the world,

151
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 1: the Second Way, feminist, feminist, civil rights movement, and there

152
00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,679
Speaker 1: were scholars who realized that if you looked back at textbooks,

153
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,559
Speaker 1: history books, you know, literature text it was all male centric.

154
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,760
Speaker 1: There was nothing to teach a woman about her place

155
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,040
Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, and so then in fall of

156
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,320
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy we have the first formal women's Studies department

157
00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:01,000
Speaker 1: founded at San Diego State University, and then Cornell followed

158
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 1: up with the second Women's Studies Department. UM I think

159
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,040
Speaker 1: it was also that year, or maybe it was spring

160
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,480
Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy one. And then in January nineteen seventies

161
00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,040
Speaker 1: seven we have the National Women's Studies Association formed in

162
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:19,680
Speaker 1: San Francisco to promote the field's development. And then by

163
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,040
Speaker 1: two thousand. We have more than seven hundred women studies

164
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 1: programs in the United States, many that offer either concentration

165
00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,640
Speaker 1: certificate minor or a major degree. And I will say

166
00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,079
Speaker 1: that in recent years some funding has lagged for women's

167
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,960
Speaker 1: studies department and I think that there has been a

168
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 1: drop in the number of women's studies departments and colleges

169
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 1: and universities in the US and Canada. But really since

170
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,400
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, it took off and it's a pretty

171
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 1: common it's a pretty common program to find. I know

172
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,920
Speaker 1: that at my university we had a women's studies department.

173
00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,320
Speaker 1: It was in this really depressing windowless building. Um, but yeah,

174
00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 1: it was there. Did you take in classes? I did

175
00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,040
Speaker 1: not guinea classes. I feel like stuff Mom never told

176
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,440
Speaker 1: you has been me teaching the homeschool version, if you will,

177
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 1: of women's studies for me. But now I never just

178
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,400
Speaker 1: kind of never fit into my course live well, I

179
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,160
Speaker 1: took a women's studies class, and um, I was very

180
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,839
Speaker 1: interested to read an article by Karen Laherman and Mother Jones.

181
00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,440
Speaker 1: And it's a little bit it's a little bit dated.

182
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,480
Speaker 1: It's from but I was just trying to relate my

183
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,480
Speaker 1: own experience to this article, which is funny because that's

184
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 1: what Lerman seems to hate about women's studies is that

185
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: a lot of the classes you'll you'll do a reading

186
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,000
Speaker 1: of you know, oppression, and then you'll come and you'll

187
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,880
Speaker 1: talk about how you recognized oppression in your own life.

188
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,000
Speaker 1: And she doesn't think that the women in these classes

189
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,480
Speaker 1: should be uh doing so much personal introspection that they

190
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,600
Speaker 1: need to be doing more scholarly analysis. But you know,

191
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,960
Speaker 1: there have been questions of do we still need this

192
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,480
Speaker 1: kind of department? You know, Kristen and I are both

193
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,720
Speaker 1: born after Second Way feminism. We didn't have to fight

194
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,840
Speaker 1: for you know, equality, even though it may still be

195
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,200
Speaker 1: finding sort of on a daily basis to let's say,

196
00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: get equal pay or get the same kind of respect

197
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,480
Speaker 1: that maybe males are afforded. I'm not talking about specifically,

198
00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,200
Speaker 1: but that's what women, you know, throughout the country you're doing.

199
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,480
Speaker 1: And so do you still need a class where Lahman

200
00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,319
Speaker 1: says you walk in and you learn that men are

201
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 1: oppressing you and that you're a victim and that all

202
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,040
Speaker 1: the evils of the world are caused by um Western men. Well,

203
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,920
Speaker 1: I think the most troubling issue that she brings up

204
00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:25,640
Speaker 1: in this article and again, yeah, it's stated, but I

205
00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,040
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised too surprised if this was still, um

206
00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,120
Speaker 1: an issue in some women's studies classes. Was that some

207
00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,600
Speaker 1: of and she she traveled across the country and sat

208
00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:36,840
Speaker 1: in on a number of different classes, taught to a

209
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,640
Speaker 1: number of different professors. So this really isn't it's not

210
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:44,000
Speaker 1: just focused on one college or university. But she brings

211
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: up the fact that sometimes professors and the students would

212
00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,160
Speaker 1: go out of their way to ostracize the you know,

213
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,840
Speaker 1: brave mail or two who would come into the class

214
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 1: and actually go out of their way to try to

215
00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,520
Speaker 1: get them to drop the class. I mean, granted, I

216
00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 1: will say it. It was when I was in college.

217
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:03,760
Speaker 1: It was a little bit of a joke when a

218
00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 1: guy would take a male studies class. Would be like, oh,

219
00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,000
Speaker 1: looks you know, he's just trying to get some dates

220
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,800
Speaker 1: out of this and see how women's class. He's just

221
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,120
Speaker 1: trying to seem sensitive. But um, but I think it's

222
00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,000
Speaker 1: incredibly damaging to try to you know, if men want

223
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,480
Speaker 1: to join this conversation, I say absolutely, because, um, you know,

224
00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:27,000
Speaker 1: some of the professors from what the mother Jones article

225
00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,640
Speaker 1: says wouldn't want to have been in the class because

226
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,320
Speaker 1: they were worried that it wouldn't um, it would prevent

227
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,400
Speaker 1: the female students from feeling open about sharing and um.

228
00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,559
Speaker 1: But I would say to that, Um, you know, I

229
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 1: feel like college is all about preparing you for the

230
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,400
Speaker 1: real world and society. And and I think what I

231
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,520
Speaker 1: said to E whil he was in the real world

232
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,800
Speaker 1: isn't just girl scout camp. We have to learn how

233
00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:52,920
Speaker 1: to deal with men and be open and honest with men,

234
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 1: and also, you know, get their perspective on things as well,

235
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 1: because we don't live in some kind of gender vacuum.

236
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 1: We will be interesting to see if the founders of

237
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,800
Speaker 1: male studies will welcome women into their classes. I mean,

238
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,920
Speaker 1: are you gonna, you know, teach women how the ideal man,

239
00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,559
Speaker 1: according to male studies, should operate so that a woman

240
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,640
Speaker 1: who becomes a mother can raise him that way. And

241
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,360
Speaker 1: I guess the problem and I think that maybe, you know,

242
00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,640
Speaker 1: women's studies might have the same problem, and perceptions maybe

243
00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 1: male studies has is that it's a bunch of angry

244
00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,000
Speaker 1: women in a room. I mean, that was not my

245
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,920
Speaker 1: experience at all, but I think I mean, yeah, I mean,

246
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:31,840
Speaker 1: just think back to that joke that you were telling.

247
00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,520
Speaker 1: It's not necessarily true, but everyone thinks that it's a

248
00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,439
Speaker 1: bunch of women in a room, that the token man

249
00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,800
Speaker 1: is just there to pick them up, and that it's

250
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,280
Speaker 1: women complaining about the fact that you know, men raped them,

251
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 1: or men take their jobs, or men make them stay home.

252
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,800
Speaker 1: And so I think that our weird perception of these

253
00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,200
Speaker 1: programs and making them something that outsiders take is what's

254
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,840
Speaker 1: done the most damage. Now, there definitely are men in

255
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 1: women's studies programs um and there was a Guardian article

256
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,400
Speaker 1: from two thousand six even even talking about how there

257
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,319
Speaker 1: was a rising number of of men in taking women's

258
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,280
Speaker 1: studies courses in area colleges and universities. But it's certain

259
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:18,199
Speaker 1: institutions they also have the option of taking men's studies courses.

260
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 1: And let me just distinguish one more time, really fast,

261
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 1: the difference between male studies and men's studies, because mail

262
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,120
Speaker 1: studies is the new discipline that they're trying to start

263
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,760
Speaker 1: at a Wagner College that Molly and I were talking

264
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 1: about a few minutes ago, whereas men's studies has been

265
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 1: around for a while sort of as a compliment to

266
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,600
Speaker 1: women's studies and part of gender studies. So men's studies

267
00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 1: most prominent organization obviously is titled the American Men's Studies Association,

268
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,680
Speaker 1: and on their website they have a really good history

269
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,080
Speaker 1: of how they started. Um there, you know, a new organization,

270
00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 1: and they grew out of the national organization from Men

271
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:57,480
Speaker 1: Against Sexism known as No Moss and UM basically there

272
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 1: was sort of a riff because men's Studies wanted to

273
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 1: be a own organization and the No Moss people were like,

274
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, we're about men in combination with feminism, and

275
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,720
Speaker 1: the American men Sties Association didn't, you know, dismiss feminism

276
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,520
Speaker 1: the way that male studies seems to want to, but

277
00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,680
Speaker 1: just wanted its own organization where men could do scholarly

278
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,840
Speaker 1: research on boyhood masculinities fathers. UM. I think we've cited

279
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,280
Speaker 1: some of their work Christen and talking about other issues,

280
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,040
Speaker 1: but they are about providing a forum of open and

281
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,360
Speaker 1: inclusive dialogue which involves a spirit of mutual respect for

282
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 1: our common humanity. So not necessarily you know, pushing a

283
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 1: feminist agenda, but understanding that men and women are on

284
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,400
Speaker 1: this planet together, both deserve respect. But why do men

285
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 1: do the things they do? Yeah, and it also tries

286
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:51,280
Speaker 1: to look at oppression UM in all forms, not just sexism.

287
00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 1: We have you know, racism, homophobia, anti anti semitism, classism, etcetera.

288
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 1: So it's not just looking at you know, male versus female,

289
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 1: but more you know men men in the world and

290
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,720
Speaker 1: all of the you know, the manifold issues that that

291
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,240
Speaker 1: come up. Well, And I think what's interesting Christen is

292
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,720
Speaker 1: you know, when people ask me what this podcast about

293
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,680
Speaker 1: is about, I tend to say gender issues because I

294
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 1: think that, you know, men's Days and women's Days are

295
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,480
Speaker 1: really working towards the same thing. Now, So why so

296
00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 1: while the American Men's Days Association is focused on studying men, uh,

297
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 1: we do want to give a shout out to x

298
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,120
Speaker 1: y Online and No Moss, which are men's groups that

299
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:38,840
Speaker 1: acknowledge feminism, supported us um, oppose oppression in any form,

300
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,880
Speaker 1: and have really great scholarly articles about what it means

301
00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:45,560
Speaker 1: to be a man in the midst of this crazy

302
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,800
Speaker 1: world we all live in. Well, yeah, I mean, like

303
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,200
Speaker 1: just as much as we value discussions on, for instance,

304
00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:54,720
Speaker 1: what it means to be feminine, I mean I think

305
00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,760
Speaker 1: that it would be just as valuable for men to

306
00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,480
Speaker 1: explore the social meanings of what it means to be masculine,

307
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 1: because just as loaded as feminine is for a woman,

308
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 1: and how negative that can be at some point in

309
00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,960
Speaker 1: restrictive I'm sure that men experience the same things with um,

310
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,040
Speaker 1: you know, the dictates of masculinity, you know. So I

311
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: think that I think that it's it's great that men

312
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,520
Speaker 1: Studies is out there, and I think that it's necessary

313
00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 1: to embrace both both genders. I like the idea, really, Molly,

314
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 1: of just gender studies, gender studies, you know, I mean,

315
00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,800
Speaker 1: why don't we just why don't we just put this

316
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,239
Speaker 1: all under one big, happy umbrella, like like some institutions do,

317
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 1: and just call it gender studies because then we also

318
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,880
Speaker 1: have we haven't even talked about queer studies too. I mean,

319
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,240
Speaker 1: so many things under that, But what is male studies?

320
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,280
Speaker 1: Because you probably, you know, people might start here. This

321
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,160
Speaker 1: might come up again because they're supposed to have their

322
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,920
Speaker 1: first annual conference in October. So I have a feeling

323
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,520
Speaker 1: that male Studies is going to pop back up in

324
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,919
Speaker 1: the news cycle. But it's gonna be very interesting to

325
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,640
Speaker 1: see whether or not they get this two million dollar

326
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,520
Speaker 1: funding that Lionel Tiger is aiming for to really get

327
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:05,359
Speaker 1: the program off the ground, or if it is going

328
00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 1: to just dissolve. I mean, what do you guys think,

329
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,920
Speaker 1: I mean, do we really need male studies if we

330
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 1: already have men's studies, especially since the object of male

331
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:24,200
Speaker 1: studies is to, um, oh, I don't know, uh, disqualify feminism.

332
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,600
Speaker 1: And then you know, by that extent, do we need

333
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 1: women's studies I mean, doesn't serve a purpose? Do you

334
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,159
Speaker 1: think that women's study, by having women's studies in some

335
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,440
Speaker 1: way is oppressing men? I mean yeah, I mean, I

336
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 1: mean really briefly, I think that we should, uh, we

337
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 1: should mention that there was a lawsuit UM that one

338
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 1: lawyer brought because Columbia University UM didn't have a men's

339
00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 1: studies program, not male studies, this is men's studies, okay, UM,

340
00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,080
Speaker 1: and they took it to court saying, hey, this is discrimination.

341
00:18:55,320 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 1: You're violating our First women rights by by having men's studies.

342
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: And the reason why the lawyer, though lost the case

343
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 1: was that he tried to claim that feminism was a

344
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 1: form of religion and you know, therefore was under the

345
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,080
Speaker 1: First Amendment, and so men's studies should also be afforded

346
00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,640
Speaker 1: the same same rights, and the judge was like, um,

347
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,920
Speaker 1: if feminism is a religion, then so is physics. I'm

348
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 1: throwing this case out, Okay. So it's just it should

349
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 1: be know that this guy also sued UH nightclubs in

350
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,680
Speaker 1: Manhattan because they had ladies night drinks. So he's he's, he's,

351
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 1: he's figned himself as an anti feminist. But you know,

352
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 1: it's a complete subject. So is college. Here's the merging

353
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,120
Speaker 1: of the two. We need your feedback on this issue. Yeah,

354
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,600
Speaker 1: and I think the most important thing to take away

355
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: from it too is that men's studies is not anti feminist.

356
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,840
Speaker 1: Male studies is such a fine line men's and male.

357
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,440
Speaker 1: Oh I wish you'd come up with a different name

358
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:02,000
Speaker 1: from the male studies, superman studies, dude studies. So it's

359
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 1: here to differentiate anyway. Yeah, let us hear your thoughts

360
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:08,400
Speaker 1: and we can emails at Moms at the House, stuff

361
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,440
Speaker 1: works dot com and Molly whant we read a couple

362
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:16,679
Speaker 1: of emails. So our first email is from Holly and

363
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:19,720
Speaker 1: it's about our Women in Tattoos podcast. She writes, I

364
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:21,960
Speaker 1: have several tattoos, and all but one are quite large.

365
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,679
Speaker 1: And even working in a very creative field, I've definitely

366
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 1: noticed a hesitation on the part of employers or future

367
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,000
Speaker 1: employers when they notice my tattoos. More than once I've

368
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,880
Speaker 1: been told I need to alter my wardrobe to cover

369
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 1: said tattoos while working or now in the presence of clients.

370
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,199
Speaker 1: I should also say that none of my tattoos are

371
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 1: in any risk A spots, and none of them contain

372
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,240
Speaker 1: imagery or writing that could be offensive to another person.

373
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 1: But neither the placement or the content of my tattoos

374
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 1: seems to matter. The simple fact that I have them

375
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 1: seems to make employers apprehensive. I don't think I decided

376
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 1: to get tattoos to appear tough or to go against

377
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,200
Speaker 1: the grain, because I've always been very accepting of however

378
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 1: people choose to look, and never considered looking a little

379
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 1: different to be negative. Having said that, I understand that

380
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 1: not everyone is as is as accepting, and I'm happy

381
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 1: to say I've been lucky enough to encounter people who

382
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,639
Speaker 1: are willing to let me prove that even with the tattoos,

383
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,919
Speaker 1: I can be a valuable employee. I may have to

384
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 1: work a little harder to prove this than other women,

385
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: but I'm willing to because I really do love my tattoos,

386
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 1: and who knows, maybe I'll open people up to being

387
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,199
Speaker 1: a little more accepting of tattoos in the workplace. All right, Well,

388
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 1: I've got one here also about tattoos, and this is

389
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,679
Speaker 1: from Victoria, and she wrote in because she said she

390
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 1: can relate to what I said about um comments that

391
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 1: I've received on my little tattoo. Um. And she said,

392
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,880
Speaker 1: it's true that my tattoo is for me, and yet

393
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 1: people still think it's their duty to let me know

394
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 1: what they think of my tattoo. Most of their comments

395
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 1: come from people of the older generation who seem to

396
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 1: disapprove of them, and the men who believe in those stereotypes.

397
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 1: I would just like to say it is none of

398
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 1: their business and that they can keep their comments to themselves.

399
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 1: I'm not telling them to get a tattoo, so why

400
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 1: do they need to tell me their opinions. I didn't

401
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 1: get my tattooed to be powerful or send a message

402
00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 1: of any kind, and that's why I chose to use

403
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: my back as a canvas. I wish there really was

404
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: such a stigma around women having tattoos, just because I

405
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: have one, and then I have one on my lower

406
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: back does not make me any less of a human

407
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,959
Speaker 1: being or that I deserve to be degraded for them.

408
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: It's a given that not everyone's going to be on

409
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 1: the same page about tattoos. But just like people with

410
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,719
Speaker 1: tattoos don't comment on tattoo less people, people without them

411
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 1: shouldn't be making comments on our tattoos. There we go.

412
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 1: We want to know your thoughts on anything we talk

413
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: about or anything you'd like us to talk about. The

414
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.

415
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: We also have a Facebook and we have a Twitter,

416
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 1: and there's no excuse for not getting in touch with us.

417
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 1: We also have blog. You can leave comments there as well,

418
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: and our blog is at how stuff works dot com.

419
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,200
Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics because

420
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,439
Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. Want more how stuff works,

421
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: check out our blogs on the house stuff works dot

422
00:22:53,960 --> 00:23:01,359
Speaker 1: com home page. Brought to you either reinvented two thousand

423
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 1: and twelve Camry. It's ready, are you