1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: I've finally made it to the Cassadeca Library, but as 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 1: with everything in this place, they did not make it easy. 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: It's a Tuesday night and the sun is setting. For 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,319 Speaker 1: my entire time here, I don't ever feel afraid or 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: threatened when night falls near the Ghost Church. And I 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: mean that. I mean. One of the first things I 7 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: was told by Pastor deb when I was planning my 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: trip to Cassadeca was that there was this energy vortex 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: in the area, a spirit vortex. It sounds a little scary, 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: but all it means is that this is a place 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: where contact with the dead is more possible than almost 12 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: anywhere else in the country. Other areas that have vortexes 13 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: include Arizona, New Mexico, the Midwest in many places, New England, 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: and of course of State, New York, basically anywhere spiritualism 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: popped off. The b and Game in Memorial Library is 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: on Stephens Street in Cassadakeh, right by where I did 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: my session with the Reverend Doctor Louis Gates and the 18 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: Ferry Trail where tourists leave those little trinkets and remembrances 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,039 Speaker 1: of themselves and they're dead. And Gaiman herself was trained 20 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: as a medium in Cassadega, beginning as a teenager and 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: served as a medium to lobbyists and congress people in 22 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,839 Speaker 1: the DC area for decades. Make of that what you will. 23 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: The library itself doubles as an educational building where classes 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: take place and as another example of a property in 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: Cassadega that could definitely use a renovation. Lawn is a 26 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: little bit barren. There's some detritus close to one of 27 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: the exits, and there don't seem to be any lights 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: on inside on the street where most of the houses 29 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: have soft lights from the interior, telling you that at 30 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: least someone is home, either making dinner or possibly helping 31 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: someone connect with the dead mother they never got closure with. 32 00:01:57,520 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: I crossed the lawn and try one of the entry 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: says it's a lucky guess, And suddenly I'm standing in 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: what appears to just look like someone's house with the 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: lights off. There's a voice coming from down the hallway. 36 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: It sounds like there's a man talking to himself, or actually, 37 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: the longer I listened, I realize he's talking to a dog. 38 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,559 Speaker 1: I call the number I was given for the librarian 39 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: who works here, and feel deeply paranoid because if I 40 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: miscalculated this, There's virtually no other time to see whatever 41 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: is going on in this building. The library is open 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: exactly two hours per week Tuesday night, seven pm to 43 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: nine pm, and has run by someone who has what 44 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,360 Speaker 1: I feel is the most noble profession in the entire world, 45 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,119 Speaker 1: a volunteer librarian. As I'm trying to get my nerve 46 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: up to follow this voice down the hall, a couple 47 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: enters the building behind me. I've actually met the woman 48 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: before at a class called Healing one oh one at 49 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: the Andrew Jackson Davis building around the corner. She had 50 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,240 Speaker 1: been excited to learn that I was a reporter. Did 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: I want to read the children's books she self published 52 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: not too long ago. It's on Amazon. The two are 53 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: also volunteer librarians here. I learned she and her husband 54 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: are Rhode Islanders who moved to Cassadega sometime in the 55 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: middle of the pandemic. They had retired they were sick 56 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: of mask mandates, yet another common feeling here in Cassadega 57 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: that seems to go against the traditional, assumed progressivism of 58 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: the religion. She had taken an interest in spiritualism and 59 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: is training as a medium. Herself, so at this point 60 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: the couple had been involved at the camp intimately for months, volunteering, 61 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: taking classes, and attending services for the full year that 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 1: it's necessary to before one can qualify to rent land 63 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: from the camp to live on. As we've discussed in 64 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: past episodes, becoming a medium at Cassadega takes at least 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: four years, and she'll have to find a mentor to 66 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: approve and keep track of her training and volunteer hours, 67 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: and seems to have found the person she's looking for 68 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: via the librarian, who as we get to the end 69 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: of the hall, is there with a little wheezing dog. 70 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: He asks, am I, Jamie. I say yes and apologize 71 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,159 Speaker 1: for all the calls. I'm just worried that I'll miss 72 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: it when there's so few hours available. He's a total sweetheart, 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: a man in his seventies with this low musical voice 74 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: named Richard Russell. It is recognized that everything in the 75 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: universe's energy and vibration. As an extension of that knowledge, 76 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: we in accord our energy and are affected by the 77 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: vibrations around us. He's been at Cassadega for twenty five 78 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: years and the library is sort of his side project. 79 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: You could say, he tells me. It started in seventeen 80 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: with a donation of eighteen hundred books from Endgame in 81 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: herself and has since ballooned to a collect of over 82 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: six thousand books and texts. Every Tuesday, he and a 83 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 1: few volunteers continue the work of organizing the titles into 84 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 1: an infinity Google spreadsheet. Six thousand volumes is pretty impressive, 85 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: But what I'm most curious about on this night is 86 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: what kind of texts we're talking. For the most part, 87 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: I find the same history is reported over and over 88 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: over a century of spiritualists working out their ideas, working 89 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: out their inviting some texts that reference more Eastern religion, 90 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 1: self help, idealism, American individualism. It's a fascinating collection, but 91 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: it feels like there's a lot missing. So over the 92 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: next two weeks, we're going to take a look at 93 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: the corners of spiritualism that are even less discussed than 94 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: the religion itself. Will take a look at the cultures 95 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 1: that spiritualism appropriates in order to distance itself from traditional Christianity. 96 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: How a supposedly russ of religion managed to lose the 97 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: vast majority of their Black American believers in the offshoot 98 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: of spiritualism that enmeshed with the beliefs of enslaved people 99 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: who had been moved to Imperial Land and created a 100 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: religious movement that is far more popular and practiced than 101 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: spiritualism in America itself. Let's create a corner of the 102 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: library that doesn't exist. Meet me at the energy vortex 103 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: down at Seneca Pond. Wait o, Seneca Wait. Let's do 104 00:06:30,240 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: the theme song first? Is that Vera so Richard shows 105 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: me into this library that's being organized as a volunteer 106 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: project by medium slash librarians. Some of the materials are 107 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: primary sources and pamphlets that have been hanging around the camp, 108 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: semi organized for decades, and other texts were inherited by 109 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: retired or passed into spirit mediums, still to be arranged 110 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: and determined what their use in the camp might be. 111 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: The two rooms that compose the library have these low 112 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: ceilings and are lit with fluorescent lights. Most of the 113 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: shelves are full, others are semi organized arranged. Categories so 114 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: far include biographies of mediums, metaphysical topics, women's books, self 115 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: help books. I can't account for this, but there's a 116 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: pile of books on the ground that seemed to have 117 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: to do with the history of Nazis between the late 118 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties and World War Two. It's not pro Nazi rhetoric, 119 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: but I don't understand why it's there. Richard is kind 120 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: of talking me through these categories as he walks me around. 121 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: He says, we try to be inclusive, but he gestures 122 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: around a little helplessly before earnestly begging me to please 123 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: put books back where I found them. They don't have 124 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: the infrastructure to organize them. Again, he says, our system 125 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: is not the best and if we get books out 126 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: of whack. He trails off, just completely overwhelmed by the 127 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: idea of books out of whack, and he leaves me 128 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: to it. So where to start. I'm trying not to 129 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: trip over the random stacks of books and paper that 130 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: have yet to be categorized, and decided that I'll try 131 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: and start by seeking out something I've been looking for 132 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: since I got here, any record or context for the 133 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: spiritualists preoccupation with generalized indigenous history. But for all the 134 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: books that I can find, just a sampling of titles. 135 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: They've got a copy of Women who Love Too Much, 136 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: They've got shelves dedicated to natural law and angels and 137 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: aura color and astral projection, and even a copy of 138 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: that book by Dr Phil that everybody's auntie has that 139 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: book called Self Matters? Why do they have that? What 140 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: there's none of is anything that concerns spiritual practices outside 141 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: of American spiritualism, for questions what cultural influences they took 142 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: in order to build their own religion. In the several 143 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: volumes that exist on Cassadega's history, one story always features prominently, 144 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: the Cassadega Founding story. I find it in a number 145 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: of titles throughout the library, and it's been repeated pretty 146 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: often online as well, and I think it's high time 147 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 1: that we take a closer look at it. On Ghost Church, 148 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: that's the show you're listening to. By the way, mm, 149 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: the myth goes a little bit like this. The Fox Sisters, 150 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: who had first heard the spirit rappings in Hydesville, New 151 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: York in eighty eight as kids, were dead and gone 152 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: by the mid eighteen nineties, after decades of prosperity, struggle, destitution, 153 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: and establishing themselves as some of the premier female religious 154 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: leaders of their time. While the Sisters Maggie and Kate 155 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 1: Fox in particular, died in relative poverty and obscurity. The 156 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: legacy they left behind was enormous. Spiritualism had managed to 157 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: cross lines of fashionality, of gender, of race, of class. 158 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: It now belonged to the whole world, and communities were 159 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: forming to continue the observance and development of this Christian 160 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: influenced religion with no heaven or Hell that emphasized spirit 161 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: communication and mediumship entered George Colby, born just weeks before 162 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: the Fox sisters made a splash in upstate New York. 163 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: Colby grew up in Pike, New York, an hour outside 164 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: of Rochester, before the family moved to Minnesota, and Colby 165 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: developed an interest in spiritualism as a teenager, beginning to 166 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: work as a medium in the eighteen sixties and formally 167 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: leaving his Baptist upbringing in eighteen sixty seven after the 168 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,319 Speaker 1: conclusion of the Civil War. Legend has it that one 169 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: of the main messages Colby received during this time was 170 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: that it was his destiny to start a spiritualist camp 171 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: in the US. But with all due respect, George Colby 172 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: said a lot of things, and so did his primary 173 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: spirit guide, an indigenous man named Seneca, which we've been 174 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: beating around the bush on Seneca long enough. I've mentioned 175 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: before that Seneca is a prominent name here at the 176 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: Cassadega Camp. One of the main parks that one I 177 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: was telling you about with the energy Vortex is named 178 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: for Seneca, and another meditation garden, refers to Native American 179 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:31,319 Speaker 1: spiritual practices in this very Anglo centric, vagueified way. It's 180 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: called Medicine Wheel Park, right around the corner from the library. 181 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: The camp's relationship to Indigenous culture is at best dissonant 182 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: and bizarre. The majority white religion is sprinkled with references 183 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: to Indigenous people and culture, but without any specificity or 184 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: acknowledgement of these specific tribes whose land they are living 185 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: and worshiping on. Instead, you'll often find them leaning into 186 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: popular tropes around indigenous people as a monoculture with unified 187 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 1: spiritual practices, characterizing more indigenous spirit guides acting in the 188 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: interests of the white religion than actual people who had 189 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: lived and died and had their land taken from them. 190 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: So to begin, I want to present the story of 191 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:26,559 Speaker 1: George Colby and his spirit guide Seneca's journey to Cassadeca 192 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: with some annotations. Look, I'm down to respect a religious 193 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: legend just as much as the next girl is, but 194 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 1: this one is regularly presented as fact in and outside 195 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: of spiritualist circles, while failing to acknowledge with all due respect, 196 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: actual facts, actual people, and actual human atrocities that made 197 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: it possible for Cassadeca to exist in the first place. So, okay, 198 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: George and Seneca, let's see what's going on. It's eighteen 199 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: seventy five and the twenty something George Colby is living 200 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: in Wisconsin making his living as a medium, frequently flanked 201 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 1: by his spirit guide, Seneca. Seneca's name is the first 202 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: reference to Native American culture that rings a little weird. 203 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: The Seneca were and our an indigenous tribe, not one 204 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: guy who live in upstate New York. This is very 205 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: likely something George Colby would have known from his childhood. However, Seneca, 206 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 1: his spirit guide, leaned heavily into what is now commonly 207 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: referred to in media as the magical Native American trope, 208 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: defined as stating that their power comes from innate spirituality 209 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: or closeness to nature that civilized races don't have. Usually 210 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: involves influence over nature or animals or other spirit powers. 211 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: Quite often the native in question will be dressed very traditionally, 212 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: even in modern setting. But the Seneca people have a 213 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: unique and relevant history that took place adjacent to George 214 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: Colby's life. Holby likely learned the term in his hometown 215 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: of Pike, New York, where the Seneca tribe had lived. 216 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: Pike was a town that was only incorporated by colonizers 217 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: thirty years before Colby was born. Most significantly, Cassadega is 218 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: a Seneca word one that means water beneath the rocks, 219 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: originally named for Cassadega Lake in the area now known 220 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: as the Lily Deale Spiritual Association or Cassadega's Sister Camp. 221 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: As of the late two thousands, the Seneca language was 222 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: considered to be endangered, with less than fifty remaining speakers, 223 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: a clear and direct result of colonizers often government enabled 224 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: methods of forced relocation, forced cultural assimilation, and ethnic cleansing. 225 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: Here's a clip of what the Seneca language does sound 226 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: like from a recent Seneca language audio newsletter on how 227 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: to say grandfather's and uncle's on Glass Saint Ka East. 228 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: Now today, around eight thousand Seneca are enrolled in the 229 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: Seneca nation of Indians, who refer to themselves as quote, 230 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: the keepers of the Western Door. A link to some 231 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: resources where you can learn more in the description of 232 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: this episode. Unfortunately, for George Colby's credibility promise and being 233 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: sarcastic there, his spirit guide Seneca and the Seneca people 234 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: had very little in common. As presented in the spiritualist legend, 235 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 1: the spirit guide Seneca primarily served as a conduit by 236 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: which George Colby was able to justify moving to Florida 237 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: from Wisconsin. There he would acquire the plot of land 238 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: where the Southern Cassadega Spiritualist Association would be low caated 239 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: beginning in the eighteen nineties. After meeting another medium in 240 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: Wisconsin in eighteen seventy five, Holby said that Seneca guided 241 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: the two of them down to the Jacksonville area by railroad. 242 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: Seneca was seeking out a very specific plot of land. 243 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: They arrived at the end of the railroad line, but 244 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: Seneca instructed them to continue on foot, seeking out land 245 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: described by the most current Cassadega history book available called 246 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: Cassadega the South's oldest spiritual community as quote, a great 247 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: spiritual center where thousands of believers could congregate a promised 248 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 1: land of lakes and high bluffs. Behold the land where 249 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: Cassadega exists now, the legend continues. Having satisfied Seneca, Wilby 250 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 1: filed a homestead grant in eighteen eighty, an act that 251 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: was passed by Abraham Lincoln during the Civil War in 252 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty two. They gave plots of land of around 253 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: one hundred sixty acres to applicants, the vast, vast majority 254 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: of whom were white people, except wait, who did those 255 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: acres belong to Originally? Cassadega was made possible with a 256 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: land grant that was intentionally redistributing indigenous land to white people. 257 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: Made plausible in Florida after the US had acquired heavy 258 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: air quotes used there the land from fellow colonizers Spain 259 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: back in eighteen nineteen, soon after, in humane policies like 260 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: the eighteen thirty Indian Removal Act Forcibly relocated many Cherokees, Creeks, 261 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 1: and other people indigenous to the eastern US. They were 262 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: forced to go to the west of the Mississippi River 263 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: to make room for more white colonizers. This led to 264 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: the trail of tears, a brutal government sanctioned ethnic cleansing 265 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: carried out between a teen thirty and eighteen fifty that 266 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: demanded that over one hundred thousand Indigenous people relocate, with 267 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,400 Speaker 1: some historians estimating as many as fifteen thousand people died 268 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: on the way in unlivable conditions. Add this to the 269 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 1: fallout of the Seminole Wars, there is no doubt that 270 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,600 Speaker 1: Cassadega would not have been possible without the exploitation of 271 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: Indigenous people whose religion and culture were being criminalized and erased. 272 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: While movements like Spiritualism were given the space both culturally 273 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 1: and literally to evolve and thrive. While the abolitionist politics 274 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: of most early spiritualists were emphasized, there's not much to 275 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: indicate that the religion had meaningful solidarity with Indigenous people 276 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 1: during these periods of massive violence. Another conflict that was 277 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: very relevant to this area was the Seminal Wars, a 278 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 1: still undertaught series of three wars between the Seminal tribe 279 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: and Florida and white colonialists. The first war went from 280 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: eighteen seventeen to eighteen, the second from eighteen thirty five 281 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: to forty two, and the third and final Seminal War 282 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: went from eighteen fifty five to fifty eight, just under 283 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: a quarter century before George Colby was said to have 284 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: shown up with his spirit guide Seneca. The latter two 285 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 1: wars related to Cassadega directly. The second Seminal War had 286 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: erupted over the Indian Removal Act. Many seminals refused to 287 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: vacate to Oklahoma when it was demanded by the U. S. Military, 288 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: and we're effectively using guerrilla war tactics before US generals 289 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: began to play extremely dirty, doing things like abducting seminal 290 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: leaders under the guise of proposed treaties. The Third Seminal 291 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: War was intended by the U. S Military to remove 292 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: or murder the remaining seminal from Florida, those who had 293 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: survived the first two conflicts. The plan was to burn 294 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: their plantations and starve them until they agreed to relocate, 295 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: although it said that between two hundred and five hundred 296 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,640 Speaker 1: Seminole people moved deep into the Everglades instead of abandoning 297 00:21:16,720 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: their land in Colby was granted one hundred acres of 298 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 1: land central Floridian, land that had previously been the home 299 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: of tribes like the Muscogo, a group of majority black 300 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: Seminoles who had faced extreme marginalization for their skin color 301 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: and their status as indigenous in both the US and 302 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: in Mexico. Their history is a fascinating one, a result 303 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: of the Seminole tribe of Florida welcoming escaped slaves and 304 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: being open to blending their cultures and customs. During the 305 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: years that Florida was under the control of Spain, escaped 306 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: slaves could live freely here, and this resulted in a 307 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: strong ally ship between the cultures formed prior to the 308 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: colonial musical chairs between Spain and the US the land 309 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: that belonged to neither of them in the first place, 310 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,719 Speaker 1: followed by the Indian Removal Act of eighteen thirty by 311 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: President Andrew Jackson, who, it must be said, is one 312 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: of history's greatest pieces of ship from any country at 313 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: any time. It should be mentioned, though the Muskogo were 314 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: forced out of the area during the Trail of Tears years, 315 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: seminal leaders did have black slaves, and often black seminal slaves. 316 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: When seminal leaders changed their policies to endorse chattel slavery 317 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: during the Second Seminal War, the better aligned themselves with 318 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: the practices of the Creek tribe. This shift and enslavement 319 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: led to many Muskogo retreating to Mexico, where some of 320 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: their descendants continue to live today. The relationships between the 321 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: cultures was certainly not actionless, but both were being aggressively 322 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: exploited and abused by the colonizers. An interesting factor between 323 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: Seminoles and Black Seminoles descendants of this blended culture, was 324 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: an evolving spiritual tradition. Most escaped slaves practiced some form 325 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: of Christianity during the nineteenth century, leading to Christian elements 326 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: being blended into seminal spiritual traditions. Sound familiar. Another tribe 327 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: in central Florida was the Micosuki, who had lived in 328 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: southern Georgia and northern Florida before being forcibly relocated to 329 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: the Everglades during the Indian Removal Act, at which point 330 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: most allied with the Seminole. I can't stress this enough, 331 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: and we'll be addressing it through this episode. There is 332 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: no Indigenous American monoculture. Every group has their own spiritual traditions, 333 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: has their own ideas, has their own practices, and so 334 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: this ally ship came with a lot of cultural adjustment 335 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: for both groups. Mikosuki is the englishization of the word Mikosuki, 336 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: a mixed heech Zook word from Mexico that means leader 337 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: of the civilized people. Many Mikosuki fought in the Seminole Wars, 338 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: only to be displaced and targeted by the US government 339 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: again during the years of the Trail of Tears. After 340 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: refusing to have their culture considered as one and the 341 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: same as the Seminoles culture by the US, the ally 342 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: ship between the Seminole and the Mikosuki soured, and the 343 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: Mikosuki tribe is currently represented mainly in southern Florida, where 344 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: their tribal dialect remains endangered, with only about five hundred 345 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: speakers remaining. Here is a Mikosuki school teacher and tribe 346 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 1: member named William Popeye Osceola, talking about how he tries 347 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: to preserve the language and culture of the Mikosuki in 348 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: the classroom in an interview the Creative Lab at McClatchy. 349 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: When you go to school in America, you learn all 350 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: about American history, but a big part of American history, 351 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: I guess left those Native history, so I always look 352 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: back to what was missing in my education. This generation 353 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 1: is like heads and shoulders above my group. The future 354 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: they have and we're they're going to take this tribe. 355 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: I can't wait to see if we want them to 356 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: be empowered. We want them to come back and want 357 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 1: them to help take over and they can run this 358 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: and then we can also all under leadership. Their unique 359 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: religious beliefs include the idea that men are transformed into 360 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: angels after an attempt to visit the quote unquote great Spirit. Finally, 361 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: the Tumukua tribe was represented in the Cassadeca region, a 362 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: tribe that was all but wiped out by eighteen hundred, 363 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: with a population that is said to have once included 364 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: as many as two hundred thousand people. Their spiritual traditions 365 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: included community shamans that were able to contact the spirit 366 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 1: realm with powers that ranged from the belief that they 367 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: controlled the weather to sometimes serving as herbalists that used 368 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,959 Speaker 1: natural remedies to ease the pain of childbirth. This culture 369 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: was destroyed by colonial violence and illness, with the remainder 370 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: of the Tumukua ingratiating into the Seminole and many others 371 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: taken to Cuba. But it's important to note the majority 372 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: of what's known about their history, and it's not that 373 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: much are still taken from the records of European colonizers, 374 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: not that the legend of Cassadega references well virtually any 375 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: of these people or any of the history of the 376 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: land they're using. It is possible that I missed references 377 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: to indigenous culture during my time at Cassadega that was 378 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: more specific, particularly at a library where I was only 379 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: entitled to two hours of time. But any reference to 380 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: any specific native group is ex dreamly hard to come 381 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: by unless you're sharp enough to know what Seminole Street 382 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: is referencing. In the unincorporated community where crystal shops sell 383 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,360 Speaker 1: their wares to tourists. If you're lucky, maybe you'll find 384 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: one of those tourist dream catchers that are emblematic of 385 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: the ways in which modern Americans erased the cultures of 386 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: what was once around six hundred unique tribes whose land 387 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: was stolen and then formed into this monocultural image by colonizers. 388 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: If Seneca the Spirit Guide had any interest in this history, 389 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: these lost lives and stolen land of the tribes in 390 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: Central Florida, I've never seen any reference to it. For 391 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: the legend of Cassadega's founding, Seneca only seemed to have 392 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: a vested interest in being George Colby's sidekick, not just 393 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: giving him permission to found Cassadega, but as the legend goes, 394 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: it was his idea. The fallout of all of these conflicts, 395 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: the Trail of Tears, the Indian Removal Act, the Seminole 396 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: Wars had turned Florida into an area that was under 397 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,399 Speaker 1: constant change throughout the nineteenth century due to the massive 398 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: loss of life that took place during the Seminole War years. 399 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: By eighteen sixty, the census indicated that only about twelve 400 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: hundred people were living in Valusia County, where Cassadega still 401 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: is now, and that very little activity took place there 402 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: throughout the Civil War years. According to Cassadega, the South's 403 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: oldest spiritualist community, Belusia County was more popular during these 404 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: years as a place to hide from conscription into the 405 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: Confederate Army. Only beginning to be developed by colonizers in 406 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, when You're George Colby's began to show up. 407 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,880 Speaker 1: White industrialists began working on areas that bear their names 408 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: to this day. An Ohio entrepreneur named Matthias Day incorporated Daytona, Florida, 409 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy six, and Henry Addison the Land founded 410 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: the community that still bears his last name. Around this 411 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: same time, by the nine cents is, the population of 412 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: the area had increased to around people, bolstered by the 413 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: end of the Civil War and expanding train accessibility in 414 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: the central Florida area. In the land that Colby had 415 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: acquired via the Homestead Act stealing indigenous land was now 416 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: accessible and was developed to make it accessible to the 417 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: people he wanted to court, majority white spiritualists from upstate 418 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: New York looking for a place to worship when it 419 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: got too cold at the camps in the north. So 420 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: this legend is present everywhere in the library. I feel 421 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: a little weird poking so many holes in it out 422 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: of respect to the spiritualists, But for a religion that 423 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: constantly references indigenous culture and seems to have a vested 424 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: interest in the illusion of paying respect, it sounds like 425 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of colonial free form jazz by a guy 426 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: who just wanted to set up a religious camp in 427 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: a colonial culture that was and should have been grappling 428 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: with their relation to Native American culture. From this vantage point, 429 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: Seneca can be seen either as a well intentioned attempt 430 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: to incorporate Native culture into spiritualism, or, as it's been suggested, 431 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: this weird and offensive caricature that absolved a white landowner 432 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: of the guilt of thinking anyone could truly own land 433 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: that has been stolen with violence and cruelty. Quite recently, 434 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to speak with the amazing Olivia 435 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 1: Woodward about this legend, the precise reasons that it crosses 436 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: from the weird into the harmful, and the conversation that 437 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 1: surrounds indigenous culture in the United States to this day, 438 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: this gelatinous monoculture, and the erasure of all these traditions, histories, 439 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 1: and stories that are unique around six hundred tribes that 440 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 1: exists or existed across the mainland US for centuries. Olivia 441 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: writes about movies, media and Native issues and has previously 442 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: appeared on My movie podcast with Caitlin Durante, the Bechtel Cast. 443 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: I'm so thrilled I got to talk with her, and 444 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: here's a little bit of our conversation. All right, Well, Kombuchia, 445 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: my name is Olivia Woodward. I am a citizen of 446 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: the Catto nation Um. I'm also a writer for a 447 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: tribe called Geek and currently my day job is working 448 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: in tourism. So I was actually first raised pagan. I 449 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 1: have never followed Christianity. I've never never been a part 450 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,040 Speaker 1: of that. My my parents, I'm the youngest of three, 451 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,719 Speaker 1: and so by the time I was born, I think 452 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: they experimented experimented with Christianity with my siblings. But by 453 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: the time I was born, my mom, my mom and 454 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: dad like, now, Paganism makes sense to us, We're going 455 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: to do that. Then, when I was about nine years old, 456 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: my mother started reconnecting with her native identity and that's 457 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: how we first started with the Cato nation Um. And yeah, 458 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: so since I was nine years old, that's when I 459 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: was introduced to our kind of Cato spirituality and as 460 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: an adult, Unfortunately, modern day paganism does appropriate a lot 461 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: from Data spirituality, but they have a lot of the 462 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: same principles and tenants, so I still in my adulthood, 463 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: kind of combined the two of them. In general, though, 464 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: uh Catos do believe in Creator. Creator is a genderless 465 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: being that created everything. So before we started discussing a 466 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: story that George Coleby told about indigenous people. I was 467 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: curious about the spiritual origins of Olivia's people, the Katam. 468 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: I think a fun place to start, if you don't mind, 469 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: is if I kind of share our creation story. Um. 470 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: Every nation has a creation story. They're all pretty different 471 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: from each other. There is a through line among all 472 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: of them. There is some commonality, but we all are different. 473 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: So Icado's creation story. It is believed that a very 474 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: long time ago, Um humans and animals lived under the earth, 475 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: like within the earth, and they lived there for forever. 476 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: Then one day their leader, whose name translates to Moon, 477 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: received a message from Creator Um and through that message, 478 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: discovered a tunnel that led up Uh. So they followed 479 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: the tunnel and realized it led to a cave which 480 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: led to a different realm essentially. So with this message 481 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: from Creator, Moon gathered his people and the animals and 482 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: led them out of the cave. However, great Or told 483 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: Moon to not look back. You're moving forward, don't look back. 484 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: So they get almost all the way out of the cave, 485 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 1: and it's also said that Moon is carried I believe 486 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: drum and tobacco and his wife is carrying corn and 487 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: pumpkin something else you can't remember right now. They're carrying 488 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: these things though, that are essentially the foundation too for 489 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: the Cattos um. And they get almost like almost all 490 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: the way out, and Wolf gets too curious and turns 491 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 1: around and looks back, and that's when the cave collapse 492 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: and half of the people and half the animals are 493 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 1: left behind, and the other half make it to earth, 494 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: the other realm, and they cry and cry and cry, 495 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 1: and that's what forms the Mississippi River um and also 496 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: that's where the Cattos eventually made their land and their home. 497 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: And I think what's interesting to know about our creation 498 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,279 Speaker 1: story and a lot of indigenous creation stories, is that 499 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: we are of the earth. We come from the earth, 500 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: which to me um indicates our that we have a relationship. 501 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: We're guests on the earth, and so we have to 502 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: maintain a relationship with the earth. So with that in 503 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: mind too, that also means we a lot of animals 504 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: as relative as well. That's not an exaggeration, that's not 505 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: like spiritual that that is a big belief is that 506 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: we have a relationship with the animals, so away we 507 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: do that way we honor the animals is through dance. 508 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: A lot of your spirituality is kind of through your 509 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: everyday things as well, so it's a a big part 510 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: of it is being aware of what's around you and 511 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: being appreciative of what's around you, and also helping out 512 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,879 Speaker 1: when it makes sense as well. Well. I'd probably give 513 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: more context to this later. A lot of our practices 514 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: and our understandings have been lost on purpose by outside courses, 515 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,720 Speaker 1: so this might not be like a super fun answer. 516 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 1: So right now, for my understanding, I was not raised 517 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: in the cabination to believe in really an afterlife, because 518 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: we are of the earth. Once we die, we return 519 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: to the earth. Um. And that's kind of where it 520 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 1: stops now. I have done some research and I believe 521 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: before colonization there is a whole different subset of believes 522 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 1: when it came to that. But because so much of 523 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,759 Speaker 1: vis a bit lost, uh, that's kind of where it 524 00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: stands now. So a difficulty I had in interacting with 525 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: white mediums around the ideas of indigenous culture, as well 526 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: as looking at past writings of Cassadaga mediums, was that 527 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: the way that they were presenting indigenous culture was too 528 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: vague and self serving to be the kind of show 529 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: of respect that it was said to be. Olivia breaks 530 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 1: down her frustration on this issue brilliantly here. I think 531 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: in general, a question I start pushing on people who 532 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,439 Speaker 1: who believe in things like that is um. Specifically, I'll 533 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: ask like, well, what nation do you think that's from? Like, 534 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: what's what tribe are you referencing? And I do that 535 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: because we tend to get like all put in the 536 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: same group. And just to put it out there right now, 537 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: there is no Native American religion. There are over five 538 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: hundred nations across the continental United States. We can't all 539 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense for all of us to have 540 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,839 Speaker 1: the same religion. Now, there is a Native American church 541 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: in Oklahoma that I believe is still functioning, but that 542 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: is a result of laws imposed by the US government 543 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: that criminalized our religion. So we had to go underground 544 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: and build these churches to continue to as a facade 545 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: to practice some of our Native religion. UM. But in general, 546 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: whenever I come across people who think like that, I 547 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: will just push them and ask what which nation are 548 00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: you pulling that from? Which tribe are you're pulling that from? 549 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 1: And they'll get frustrated, double down on whatever. But that's 550 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: the only way I can see to combat it. But 551 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: it's it's frustrating. It's very frustrating because they do see 552 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: this as all one entity. We all believe the same things, 553 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: we all have the same practices um like especially and 554 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: also to I will say some Native people will follow 555 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: to this because we have been purposely disconnected from our 556 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 1: religion and our identity for in things. I know a 557 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: lot of Natives who have dream catchers, and that's not 558 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: necessarily a bad thing. But dream catchers are not from 559 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,840 Speaker 1: my tribe. They were not created out of the southeastern tribes. 560 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: They were created from the northeastern the Canadian tribes I 561 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: want to say Jibre or a Nishinabe. They created dream 562 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,320 Speaker 1: catchers as a way to help their children not be 563 00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: so scared of colonists, which I don't think a lot 564 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: of people understand that. Like whatever columnists started invading the 565 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: nations and murdering them. A lot of children were having nightmares. 566 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: So alders created these dream catchers to help them capture 567 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: their nightmares. And so that's the other frustrating part too, 568 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: is that they will take one thing and literally when 569 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,320 Speaker 1: I say take I do mean literally, they take it, 570 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,759 Speaker 1: they redo the definition, give no recognition to where they 571 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: took it from, and then oftentimes profit off of it. 572 00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: So that's that's the other really frustrating thing is that 573 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: not only do they just see us as one entity, um, 574 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,280 Speaker 1: they don't even want to recognize the beautiful differences between 575 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: all of us. It's it's really frustrating when non natives, 576 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: and oftentimes only white people say well, we're doing this 577 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: to honor you, We're doing this to honor you, but 578 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: you don't. You have to let the people tell you 579 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: how they want to be honored. And so if if 580 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: it's out of ignorance, understand that's understanding. But whenever you're 581 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: presented the opportunity to learn about that nation, so many 582 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: non natives will just double down because they're embarrassed or 583 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: because they don't like being wrong. They will double down 584 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,840 Speaker 1: on what they're doing and saying, no, we do this 585 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: because we're honoring you, and we have we come back 586 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,040 Speaker 1: and say, well, this is not honoring us, so this 587 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: is just for you then, And I think that's where 588 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: a lot of disconnect comes from, is that these other 589 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: cultures religions, people don't want to accept when they're wrong. 590 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: This all begs the question, what are the issues that 591 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: spiritualists could and should be acknowledging to actually meaningfully move 592 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: the needle on how Native culture is viewed. Where they 593 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 1: currently live on Seminole Land in Florida, I asked Olivia 594 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,839 Speaker 1: and she shared a few pieces of history in particular 595 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: to be aware of. And that's why I feel it's 596 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: really important to get the context as to why so 597 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: many of us have this quote unquote attitude in regards 598 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: to white people, non natives appropriating our culture and like 599 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:33,120 Speaker 1: where that frustration, that deep seated frustration comes from. So UM, first, 600 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: I'd like to talk about the establishments of boarding schools. 601 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 1: UM Boarding schools began in the United States and Canada, 602 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: but the United States around eighteen sixty and they were 603 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:50,760 Speaker 1: government funded but oftentimes run by Christian and Catholic churches. 604 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: The motto of the founder of these schools, General Richard 605 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: Henry Pratt, he thought he was a righteous man and 606 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: he could quote unquote see the humanity and the savages. 607 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: So the goal of these schools was to kill the Indian, 608 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: save the man. That was a literal motto of the school. 609 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: They did that by taking children from families and forcing 610 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,839 Speaker 1: them to be Christian, uh, taking away their native names, 611 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: punishing them when they spoke their language, cutting their hair, 612 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: and making them dress like white people, and essentially trying 613 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:31,880 Speaker 1: to assimilate them into the white culture. So that's happening 614 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixties. Um, there are technically still residential schools now, 615 00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 1: but there they functioned very differently. Now there there's not 616 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: as much like religious trauma involved now. But um, as 617 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: far as this this model, I think I don't have 618 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: the exact date on me right now, but I think 619 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 1: they were eliminated the seventies, maybe even the nineties, so 620 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:59,360 Speaker 1: like nineteen nineties. So the bit around for a really 621 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: long line. Then in eighteen eighty three, the Code of 622 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: Indian Offenses was passed by the Department of Interior, and 623 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: these codes were only applied to Native Americans. And these 624 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: codes and summary criminalized our religion. Um, if you were 625 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: because also at this point in eighteen eighty three, a 626 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: lot of the Native nations have been forced onto reservations. Um, 627 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,880 Speaker 1: so either you were, you were forced on a reservation, uh, 628 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: taken away from your food resources. And because our re 629 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,399 Speaker 1: our religion and relationship is tied so closely to the earth. 630 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,880 Speaker 1: They were being forced away from their land that was 631 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,480 Speaker 1: so connected to their religion. Um, so there are forces 632 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 1: of these reservations. The children were being taken away from them. 633 00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: And now the government has said, if you were caught 634 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 1: practicing your dances and your ceremony, you will either be 635 00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: imprisoned or we will withhold food from you for a month. 636 00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: And that's important because these nations were forced onto servations 637 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: because they were their land essentially stolen from them. The 638 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: government said, well, in return, we will provide resources from 639 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 1: you since we were taking a work, since you're being 640 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,479 Speaker 1: pushed away from the resources. So it was a big deal. 641 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: Aside from imprisonment, you wouldn't get food if you were 642 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,920 Speaker 1: caught practicing your religion. And then if any religious leaders 643 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 1: were caught, they were automatically sent to prison for like 644 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:28,200 Speaker 1: ten days or longer. That's like date my mother, but 645 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: she was born in nineteen sixty four, right, so even 646 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,839 Speaker 1: as a child, she legally wasn't allowed to do even 647 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,320 Speaker 1: if she even if she was raised with our native religion, 648 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,800 Speaker 1: which because of everything I have listed, she wasn't. But 649 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: even if she was, she wouldn't be allowed to do 650 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: a lot of the practices we wanted to do to be. 651 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,239 Speaker 1: That's also important because it's a big reason why my 652 00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,800 Speaker 1: mom raised me pagan for the first nine years of 653 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 1: my life, and then we were able to switch to 654 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 1: or transition a little bit to our native religion, like 655 00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,360 Speaker 1: be as of these laws. My grandmother wasn't raised with 656 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: her religion, so how could she raise my mom with 657 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 1: her religion. So that's why this is important. Everyone likes 658 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: to act like this happened so long ago and that 659 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: Natives are complaining for no reason, but we're not. Like 660 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,880 Speaker 1: laws were still in practice when my grandma was alive, 661 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: Like this wasn't that long ago. So Olivia was not 662 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: aware that the majority white religion of American spiritualism was 663 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:31,240 Speaker 1: appropriating from indigenous culture without really any accurate information prior 664 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,240 Speaker 1: to listening to Ghost Church to prepare for this interview, 665 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 1: But she was not surprised. You know, before I listened 666 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: to the series, I didn't know that they were using 667 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:48,080 Speaker 1: Native natives as their avatar essentially. Uh. Sure, that is 668 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,440 Speaker 1: a very weird feeling, especially because during the time of 669 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: I feel like spiritualism reaching its popularity, Natives were fighting 670 00:44:55,680 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 1: for their fucking lives to just exist and no in 671 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: that these people were starting to use us to give 672 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:09,760 Speaker 1: them strength but not but not supporting us in any 673 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: material way is uh disupporting? So what does Olivia make 674 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: of the story of George and Spirit Seneca? Okay, this 675 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: is my genuine like first time hearing the story, I 676 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,080 Speaker 1: purposely didn't look it up so that I could have 677 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:31,399 Speaker 1: a more genuine reaction. Um. So caught a lot of thoughts, Um, 678 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: why would a native spirit guide tell you to go 679 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: own land for your benefit rather than tell you to 680 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,320 Speaker 1: go help the natives get their land back? That makes 681 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,520 Speaker 1: no sense. That makes absolutely good sense. I think. The 682 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 1: other frustration is, Um, a lot of this just feels 683 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: like they are using us as a to mask her 684 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: greediness to be frank, so that I feel a lot 685 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: all that I think it's funny is that expensed to 686 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,320 Speaker 1: be does it really aligned with any native spirituality? Like 687 00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 1: at all? Um? And really just using us as a 688 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,479 Speaker 1: reason to say it's okay that we own this land. 689 00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: I hope that a big takeaway people will have from 690 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,879 Speaker 1: this is that it's okay to be curious and it's 691 00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: okay to want to participate, but you have to let 692 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,759 Speaker 1: us lead, and you have to let us do it. 693 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: And also for reconnecting natives, It's okay that you're not 694 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: actively participating in your nation's religion. It's not your fault. Um. 695 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,480 Speaker 1: We've had laws in place for over a century to 696 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 1: prevent us, and honestly, on a darker side, we've had 697 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: a lot of laws try to humanely genocide us. And 698 00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: we're still here, and you are still valid for being here. 699 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: Like the fact that you're here is a miracle. Um. 700 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think those are probably my party words. 701 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,759 Speaker 1: Thank you so much to Olivia Woodward again, and I'll 702 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: be linking to some of her work in the description. 703 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,879 Speaker 1: And I want to say personally, I mean, look, most 704 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,000 Speaker 1: of this history of the Cassadeca area was not known 705 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,439 Speaker 1: to me prior to working on this episode, and most 706 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:28,240 Speaker 1: Native history remains untaught, unacknowledged, and unpreserved in American schools. 707 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: Characters like Seneca the Spirit Guide really don't serve to 708 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:37,840 Speaker 1: do much more than to perpetuate existing stereotypes an attempt 709 00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:43,280 Speaker 1: to fill this void of non history. So by Seneca 710 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,919 Speaker 1: the Spirit Guide and George Colby decide, Hey, it's time 711 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: to get this camp up and running. To do so, 712 00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,040 Speaker 1: he enlisted the help of two women who had been 713 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,040 Speaker 1: responsible for a considerable amount of success at the lily 714 00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,879 Speaker 1: Dale Assembly, the camp that was originally called Old Cassadega 715 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,440 Speaker 1: in upstate New York. This is the camp where the 716 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: Central Floridian Spiritualists would borrow its name. The best information 717 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: isn't always contained in the library. The beliefs of the 718 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,880 Speaker 1: Spiritualists are fascinating and widely applicable, but there are areas 719 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,640 Speaker 1: of their own history that are completely forgotten or obscured 720 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 1: among the few left practicing in their major hubs. This 721 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:32,000 Speaker 1: is done in the expected way, by pushing already marginalized 722 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,600 Speaker 1: communities to the side and replacing areas of their own 723 00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: histories with versions that make them less uncomfortable. And that's 724 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,400 Speaker 1: where I'll leave you this week, as Cassadega continued to 725 00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,360 Speaker 1: build on its own legacy on its House of Cards 726 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:49,920 Speaker 1: origin story. Next week we're going to learn about a 727 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,480 Speaker 1: spirit tisma which uses spiritism as its foundation, and how 728 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,360 Speaker 1: many black spiritualists grew disillusioned with spiritualism and flocked instead 729 00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:04,879 Speaker 1: to independently run spiritual churches. That's next week on Ghost Church. 730 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: Ghost Church is a Cruise On Media production, created, written 731 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,640 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Jamie Loftus. The show is produced 732 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: by Sophie Lichtman, edited by Ian Johnson. Our theme song 733 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: is by Speedy Ortiz. That's Sadie Dupley, Andy Moholt, Audrey C. 734 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,680 Speaker 1: Whitesides and Joey Dubeck. Music is by Zoe Blade. Special 735 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 1: thanks to Olivia Woodward for speaking with me for this episode. 736 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,360 Speaker 1: Please check out her work. It's linked in the description. 737 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:39,240 Speaker 1: Special shout out to Ian Johnson and Sophie Lichterman Ghost 738 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: Church Cannon for lending their voices to this episode. And 739 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: I really tried my best pronunciation on this. I in 740 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: my defense, I did grow up in a region where 741 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,960 Speaker 1: the worst accent on the planet exists. Um so I 742 00:49:54,280 --> 00:50:00,760 Speaker 1: am open to corrections. Deep