Speaker 1: Thank you personally, Fuelsman. It's some of the love and
Speaker 1: all things relationships, and that's what we're going to get
Speaker 1: into all month. But for today, we're talking about a
Speaker 1: relationship that many people may not even realize they have
Speaker 1: a relationship with money. I'm bringing on a woman this
Speaker 1: week to share why money isn't just math but emotional wiring.
Speaker 1: She's going to help us unpack our money shames so
Speaker 1: we can all move forward to have a better relationship
Speaker 1: with money. This week, I'm joined by Shauna Game. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to talk to her all about money stuff.
Speaker 1: She is the author of Unraveling Your Relationship with Money,
Speaker 1: and we are going to do some unraveling today. That's
Speaker 1: what's about to happen. Welcome Shauna. Thanks so much for
Speaker 1: having me de scited to talk to you about all
Speaker 1: the things. But before we get into that, I love
Speaker 1: to hear the background and why this topic is so
Speaker 1: important to you. I want to hear a little bit
Speaker 1: of your story and the genesis of all of this
Speaker 1: before we really dive into the good details of everything.
Speaker 2: My first sort of foray into business actually was when
Speaker 2: I was in college, and at the time I started
Speaker 2: what was the first national Student Film Festival, and I
Speaker 2: ran that for five years and ended up actually selling
Speaker 2: it to a Hollywood producer. Crazy story, but that was
Speaker 2: really like my boots on the ground rogue BA style
Speaker 2: learning about money, because I had to learn about everything
Speaker 2: budgeting and pr and guests and just all sorts of things.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't until after that I went and got
Speaker 2: an MBA and my dad had been in the financial
Speaker 2: industry his whole career and he had a small firm
Speaker 2: and he was like, I'm bored, Do you want to
Speaker 2: come work with me? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not?
Speaker 2: And it was interesting because at that time he was
Speaker 2: working with people who had a lot of money. This
Speaker 2: was in Los Angeles, people with multimillion dollar estates, and
Speaker 2: I was working with my MBA corehorts who knew nothing
Speaker 2: about personal finance. And I started to see the same
Speaker 2: things emerged that regardless of how much money somebody had,
Speaker 2: they all got stuck in the same patterns, in the
Speaker 2: same belief systems and the same sort of mindsets around money.
Speaker 2: And that was really my first awakening that hey, there's
Speaker 2: more to this than just reading a book, right and
Speaker 2: learning how to do a budget and learning how to
Speaker 2: save and all those sorts of things. But it really
Speaker 2: wasn't until I went through a divorce in my very
Speaker 2: early thirties where I lost everything. I lost basically had
Speaker 2: to walk away from all my possessions and to pay
Speaker 2: my ex husband, and I saw my money that I realized, like, WHOA, Okay,
Speaker 2: this relationship with money is a thing, and I better
Speaker 2: start practicing what I'm trying to teach clients, because I
Speaker 2: was not, and I was anxious around money. And that
Speaker 2: was really where sort of the genesis of all of
Speaker 2: this came together. And I'm a certified financial planner, a
Speaker 2: trauma of money expert. But where I love to play
Speaker 2: is with women, and particularly women in what I call
Speaker 2: kind of our midlife. Right, so we've had enough things
Speaker 2: happen to us, and we are anxious about money. We're
Speaker 2: nervous about money. But on the outside, we're like high
Speaker 2: performing women, right, Like we're doing things and we're in
Speaker 2: our career and we've got families, and nobody would think
Speaker 2: that inside we're like these nervous, anxious people around money.
Speaker 2: And so I like to really help decode this for
Speaker 2: women and show them that you're not bad with money. Right,
Speaker 2: you just haven't learned the skill set around unraveling your
Speaker 2: relationship with money and coming to a place where you
Speaker 2: know your nervous system can relax and feel safe around money.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's start there, because you talk about the
Speaker 1: relationship with money, and so many people I've watched a
Speaker 1: lot of your videos and their relationship with money as
Speaker 1: the first it comes to debt or what their net
Speaker 1: worth is, or how have I saved for retirement. There's
Speaker 1: just so much associated with money. But you're the first
Speaker 1: person I've really come across where it's like this relationship
Speaker 1: with money. So let's start there. Tell me what that
Speaker 1: looks like for you when you're working with people and
Speaker 1: you're seeing relationships with money.
Speaker 2: Morgan, it's just if we're in a relationship with anyone else,
Speaker 2: Like I just read that you got engaged right over
Speaker 2: the congratulations, thank you. So it's the same thing as
Speaker 2: if you're in relationship with a partner, right, Like you've
Speaker 2: got to give some sort of teal see to the relationship.
Speaker 2: There's a give and take, there's compromise, there's an effort
Speaker 2: that you have to put into like making a relationship,
Speaker 2: and certainly when you're talking about marriage, that's a whole
Speaker 2: other battle of wax. It's the same thing around money,
Speaker 2: because I say that money is the longest relationship we're
Speaker 2: ever going to have in our lives, right, It follo
Speaker 2: from day one all the way until at the very end.
Speaker 2: And so most of us are in some sort of negative, shameful,
Speaker 2: guilt ridden relationship around money, like we should do these things,
Speaker 2: but we do the opposite. Or we go spend money
Speaker 2: and have drinks to their friends and then we feel
Speaker 2: really guilty. Or we read articles right or social media
Speaker 2: about people and we're like, oh, I should have a
Speaker 2: seven figure business now and I don't. And it's constantly
Speaker 2: around us. And I think the really important thing is
Speaker 2: to first ask yourself, like how do I feel about money?
Speaker 2: And whatever? Your answer to that question is, I need
Speaker 2: to dig a little deeper. Why is that? If I'm
Speaker 2: anxious around money? Why is that? Where does that come from?
Speaker 2: Did I witness that in childhood? Parents or ever raised me.
Speaker 2: Was I in a maybe a relationship where there was
Speaker 2: some sort of financial abuse, or did I struggle when
Speaker 2: I came out of college? Where does this anxiety come from?
Speaker 2: And that's the police we start at to redevelop and
Speaker 2: sort of rewire this relationship around money.
Speaker 1: Okay, and I'm assuming too, based on what you're saying,
Speaker 1: this also relates to their financial trauma that a lot
Speaker 1: of people experience. So they're depending on the things that
Speaker 1: they have experienced through their life and what's gone on.
Speaker 1: There could be this more traumatizing side of that where
Speaker 1: it's not just anxiety and it's not just stressed. It
Speaker 1: might be a little bit even further deeper than that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I use like trauma's kind of a big word, right.
Speaker 2: We hear the word trauma a lot, and I really
Speaker 2: just want, if you're listening, you to think about it
Speaker 2: as any place that just feels like a little icky
Speaker 2: around money, and it could be something big, like maybe
Speaker 2: you grew up in poverty, maybe there was lack For instance,
Speaker 2: my husband grew up in a family where they were
Speaker 2: always having to move because they were always delinquent on
Speaker 2: home payments because his stepdad would lose jobs and he
Speaker 2: would come up from school and they'd have to like
Speaker 2: move to a new house, the electricity would be off,
Speaker 2: or whatever it might be that created like this deep
Speaker 2: sense of trauma and just nervous always. We can have
Speaker 2: a bill come in and he just you know, immediately
Speaker 2: you can see him go to an anxiety response around that,
Speaker 2: and it's just because it's so wired in him right
Speaker 2: from being so young. So you can have something like that.
Speaker 2: But trauma could also show up in situations like maybe
Speaker 2: you forgot to pay a bill and maybe that bill
Speaker 2: went to collections, and then maybe it lowered your credit score,
Speaker 2: and so every time you like log down to your
Speaker 2: bank app, you're expecting to see something terrible happen, and
Speaker 2: you're just like your body and your nervous system is
Speaker 2: just stuck kind of in that moment and it just
Speaker 2: doesn't know how to figure its way out. So trauma
Speaker 2: can be something big, but it also could be these
Speaker 2: little nuanced moments that don't necessarily have to be negative,
Speaker 2: but they just tell your body like whoa, Okay, we've
Speaker 2: either got a freeze or we got to flee or
Speaker 2: we gotta fights. Right, we have to have some sort
Speaker 2: of response that's happening.
Speaker 1: And I would imagine too, it also goes on the
Speaker 1: flip side of this too, where if you're so stingy
Speaker 1: with money where you save consistently, you don't utilize your
Speaker 1: money for we love to say on social media your
Speaker 1: free will to do things where you'd like to go
Speaker 1: out and explore the world and be adventurous or go
Speaker 1: to dinner with your friends, and you're so stingy. I
Speaker 1: would imagine that's also a side to this, and not
Speaker 1: just that really hardcore side.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, because that's
Speaker 2: absolutely the truth. Like, we can see it on both sides.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people are stuck in and I see this a
Speaker 2: lot with women too. We're stuck in being like older
Speaker 2: conservative because we've got the messaging around money that we
Speaker 2: have to be quote unquote good girls, and we're just
Speaker 2: still not sure what that means. Are we supposed to spend?
Speaker 2: Are we supposed to save? Are we supposed to never
Speaker 2: do something? Are we supposed to be big in our careers?
Speaker 2: Are we supposed to be small in our careers? Like,
Speaker 2: it's just your brain is just on overload, and this
Speaker 2: is all of us, right, you're laughing, but I'm I'm
Speaker 2: sure you probably like, oh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just honestly, anything with being a woman is
Speaker 1: so complex, and this just adds to another list of
Speaker 1: things where I'm like, yeah, that tracks okay, I just
Speaker 1: pushed it aside and probably a lot of my messaging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, there isn't necessarily like when we talk
Speaker 2: about relationship with money, we talk about financial trumba. There
Speaker 2: isn't a right or wrong side to be on. And
Speaker 2: that's something I really want people to understand, because I
Speaker 2: feel like there's this falsity out there that there is
Speaker 2: like a perfect way to do money, and there are
Speaker 2: these certain like hierarchies that you need to be at
Speaker 2: certain ages, and if you're not at that hierarchy, then
Speaker 2: you know you're not doing something right and you're a
Speaker 2: bad person. And so that really ends up breeding even
Speaker 2: and war, shame and guilt into just an already complex
Speaker 2: environment around money. And so I really want to just
Speaker 2: break down that stereotypes. There isn't anything perfect. There isn't
Speaker 2: a necessarily always a right choice. You could do this
Speaker 2: or you could do that, but it depends on what
Speaker 2: do you ultimately want to do in your life. So
Speaker 2: that's I think what makes it really tricky, and it
Speaker 2: makes it hard to just listen to a money podcast
Speaker 2: episode or just read a book and be like, oh,
Speaker 2: I know instantly what I should do. It's just not
Speaker 2: that easy and I so.
Speaker 1: Want to keep going down this rabbit hole. But something
Speaker 1: in what you just said really taught me something of
Speaker 1: what I've been seeing a lot on social media. Being
Speaker 1: in comment sections is one of my least favorite and
Speaker 1: favorite things. I learn a lot about people. I see
Speaker 1: a lot of main people take what you will. But
Speaker 1: something that I've really noticed about a lot of people,
Speaker 1: especially on financial posts, is you're just seeing a lot
Speaker 1: of there's lost hope in the belief that they can
Speaker 1: have things that their parents had, that they can have
Speaker 1: a house when the finances now look so differently, And
Speaker 1: there's this conversation about this start comparison about what people
Speaker 1: today are experiencing versus what people twenty thirty, fifty years
Speaker 1: ago experience when it came to affording things. And I'm
Speaker 1: curious your take on this because I feel like this
Speaker 1: is something that would be so in your wheelhouse and
Speaker 1: I'm sad reading a lot of it online and just
Speaker 1: vast differences that people are experiencing.
Speaker 2: I think that no matter what generation we're dealing with,
Speaker 2: they're gonna be these huge differences. If we look at
Speaker 2: our parents and how they grew up, they did not
Speaker 2: have access to social media, like we have. They were
Speaker 2: not online, they were not running podcasts, like, things were
Speaker 2: just very different. If we look back to our grandparents
Speaker 2: and my great grandparents generation, specifically women, they did not
Speaker 2: have access to credit they didn't have access to bank accounts,
Speaker 2: they didn't have access to credit cards, right, and so
Speaker 2: there's always going to be something different in each generation.
Speaker 2: And I think it's really easy to highlight the things
Speaker 2: that feel out of our control, right, Like we can't
Speaker 2: control what the stock market's doing, we can't control what
Speaker 2: the interest rates are, we can't control what home prices are, Like,
Speaker 2: there are a lot of things that are just absolutely
Speaker 2: out of our control. But it's really easy to highlight
Speaker 2: those because they make really good headlines. And we're taught
Speaker 2: via social media and now with news that if we
Speaker 2: can't capture your attention in the first three seconds, you're
Speaker 2: not going to pay attention. And so we go with
Speaker 2: these big, splashy, big headlines, especially around money, and that
Speaker 2: makes you feel probably usually even worse about yourself that
Speaker 2: you're not in that situation. But I want you to
Speaker 2: focus on what you can control, the things that you
Speaker 2: can do, and part of that starts with this relationship
Speaker 2: with money, with thinking about how do I want to
Speaker 2: spend and save my money and what do I actually
Speaker 2: want to spend and save my moneys? And so I
Speaker 2: think when we can bring the focus more internal, we
Speaker 2: can feel a greater sense of control and even though
Speaker 2: there are so many things that are up against us,
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean we still can't move towards those or
Speaker 2: make those happen. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1: It absolutely does, and I love that because again, this
Speaker 1: is just a really hot topic on social media, but
Speaker 1: not even just that people are posting about, but you
Speaker 1: see it on those posts where it goes, if you
Speaker 1: have this amount of money, you can afford this house,
Speaker 1: and you can do this in five years and save
Speaker 1: the rabbit holes of especially AI and chat GBT or
Speaker 1: helping people create this content, right, But really in the
Speaker 1: comment section is where the humanity is happening, and people
Speaker 1: are discussing, Okay, I can't afford this, and there's just
Speaker 1: feels like this lost hope. And I love the idea
Speaker 1: of talking about relationship with money because I do want
Speaker 1: to give people hope. I want them to have control
Speaker 1: of their life back in a sense of what they're
Speaker 1: seeing online may not actually be their reality, even if
Speaker 1: it is broken down in a certain way and a
Speaker 1: certain chart to show some similar thing. And so, speaking
Speaker 1: on that relationship of money, what can somebody do? You
Speaker 1: mention those questions to ask themselves, But what can somebody
Speaker 1: really do to start working on that relationship with money?
Speaker 1: Where does that all begin?
Speaker 2: There's an exercise that sounds really simple that I love
Speaker 2: to suggest to people, but I promise you it once
Speaker 2: you do it, there's more complexity to it than it sounds.
Speaker 2: But I want you to get out a blank sheet
Speaker 2: of paper. Don't do this on your computer. You actually
Speaker 2: need to like handwrite this out.
Speaker 1: Oh I love a handwriting activity.
Speaker 2: Handwriting. We're going back to handwriting. Set your phone timer
Speaker 2: for fifteen minutes, and I want you to just get out.
Speaker 2: I want you to just write with like reckless, abandon
Speaker 2: everything that you wish you would have done around money,
Speaker 2: that feels unfair, that you're upset about, Like everything you
Speaker 2: feel like is a mistake. I just want you to
Speaker 2: vomit it out on this sheet of paper. When the
Speaker 2: timer's up, step away, just walk away. Come back twenty
Speaker 2: four hours later. Quick read over. You're going to notice
Speaker 2: different patterns that start to emerge when you've removed yourself
Speaker 2: a little bit from this. But the last part of
Speaker 2: this exercise is we've got to get rid of it.
Speaker 2: We've got to shred it, burn it, tear it up,
Speaker 2: something whatever feels like the right mechanism for you. There
Speaker 2: is science behind obviously writing things down on paper, getting
Speaker 2: them out of our heads, right, That helps get it
Speaker 2: out of our nervous system. And then there's science behind
Speaker 2: getting rid of something. And it doesn't immediately take this
Speaker 2: stuff away from you, but it starts to tell your
Speaker 2: body and your nervous system. Hey, okay, maybe we don't
Speaker 2: like what's happened to us in the past, but there
Speaker 2: is a way we can recreate something moving forward. So
Speaker 2: then I need you to think about what is it
Speaker 2: I actually really want and what is actually enough. So
Speaker 2: we spend so much time in what we think other
Speaker 2: people's version of enough is that this is where like
Speaker 2: comparison starts to come up, and a lot of guilt
Speaker 2: around money. But I want you to think about what
Speaker 2: is enough for me? How much money do I need,
Speaker 2: what kind of career do I want, where do I
Speaker 2: want to live, what do I like? Really think about that, right,
Speaker 2: because once we can create what enough looks like for you.
Speaker 2: And my guess is there's already some pieces of that
Speaker 2: you're living today, you just might not be recognizing it.
Speaker 2: But once we have that sketch, then it's okay, Now,
Speaker 2: how do we get our money to actually take us
Speaker 2: in that direction? And so we want to start bringing
Speaker 2: this back internally but in a healthy way, so that
Speaker 2: we can start just baby stepping our way towards what
Speaker 2: that vision of enoughness is.
Speaker 1: Oh enoughness? Yeah, And that's tough, right, because we've been
Speaker 1: taught growing up, and I'll speak from my personal experience,
Speaker 1: you get taught certain things growing up. Or you need
Speaker 1: to make sure you're saving by this point, make sure
Speaker 1: you have this prepared. You need to have a career
Speaker 1: that sustains you. You need to have financial freedom, you
Speaker 1: need to invest, you need to I can tell you
Speaker 1: the messaging that I've just taken in from every corner
Speaker 1: of the world on money, and it's so interesting to
Speaker 1: reframe that to think what actually is enough for me?
Speaker 1: Because I've been listening to everybody else this whole time.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you're not alone. That's the beauty. That's the beauty.
Speaker 2: And this is a thing that if I could go
Speaker 2: out and just create this movement of especially women. If
Speaker 2: we could just talk about all the things that we
Speaker 2: really struggle with around money, we would see that we
Speaker 2: are so much alike. It's so funny because every time
Speaker 2: I work with a woman or I have a group
Speaker 2: cohort program and I have twenty women at a time,
Speaker 2: they say the exact same things around money. It's just
Speaker 2: like clockwork. And so it's really interesting because like, regardless
Speaker 2: of how much money we make, regardless of our demographic,
Speaker 2: regardless of our backgrounds and our ethnicities, we tend to
Speaker 2: fall in the same sort of patterns and mistakes and
Speaker 2: beliefs around money. We just don't talk about it, so
Speaker 2: it feels like super isolating and you feel like I
Speaker 2: must be the only one who has not done this
Speaker 2: or who has done this.
Speaker 1: And I'd love to if you feel like you can,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear some of those patterns or behaviors
Speaker 1: that we're all similar, because sometimes we have to have
Speaker 1: it spelled out to really think, oh, that is me,
Speaker 1: because they could be listening right now, whoever it is,
Speaker 1: and be like, that's not me. I haven't done that.
Speaker 1: But then you start to hear the language and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh crap, that is me. I am in that group.
Speaker 1: So some of those patterns, behaviors, things that you see
Speaker 1: a lot of people alike having these same thoughts and
Speaker 1: feelings on if you're able to share, would be awesome.
Speaker 2: For sure, and they're I'm going to just throw them
Speaker 2: out and we can dissect whichever ones you want to.
Speaker 2: But certainly the first one is always around this enough thing. Right,
Speaker 2: So it's always some form of I don't have enough,
Speaker 2: I will never have enough, there isn't enough, and it's regardless. Again,
Speaker 2: I worked with someone a couple weeks ago who made
Speaker 2: over seven figures a year, and the first thing out
Speaker 2: of her mouth was, my biggest fear is there's not enough.
Speaker 2: And so there's just this feeling I think of just
Speaker 2: constant lack, and it's just perpetuated by social media and
Speaker 2: society and all of this. Right, So this idea of
Speaker 2: I'm behind, I'm just chronically behind. I'm never going to
Speaker 2: be able to catch up. Another one is that your money,
Speaker 2: and this kind of goes with career, that it should
Speaker 2: be a solid upward line that if there are any blips,
Speaker 2: if I get laid off or a client fires me,
Speaker 2: or whatever it might be in your line of work.
Speaker 2: That doesn't happen to other people. And I'm going to
Speaker 2: tell you other people might not admit it, but it
Speaker 2: happens all the time, all the time. It is never
Speaker 2: an upward line, and anyone who tells you it is
Speaker 2: is just lying through their teeth, right. It's their twists
Speaker 2: and turns. And people have to do things like people
Speaker 2: have to pull money out of their retirement plans, people
Speaker 2: have to ask parents for loans, people have to turn
Speaker 2: to credit cards. There is just stuff that happens. And
Speaker 2: so that makes us feel very shameful when we're up
Speaker 2: against those types of decisions because we feel like I'm
Speaker 2: filling the blank age. I should not need to ask
Speaker 2: my parents for help, or I should not have to
Speaker 2: put this on a credit card, or I should not
Speaker 2: be in debt, or I should not have to pull
Speaker 2: money out of my retirement plan. And so that feels
Speaker 2: very lonely, right, and it goes back to this idea
Speaker 2: of I'm not good with money, I can't be trusted
Speaker 2: with money. Look at me, I just did this. A
Speaker 2: lot of women and a lot of people have this
Speaker 2: scenario where you get out of debt and then you
Speaker 2: get back in debt, and then you might get out
Speaker 2: of debt, then you might get back in debt, and
Speaker 2: you feel so terrible when you're in the place of debt.
Speaker 2: And so what we also tend to do is associate
Speaker 2: whatever numbers in our bank account with our identity. That
Speaker 2: if I have X amount of dollars, ooh, I feel
Speaker 2: a certain way about myself. But if I get a raise, ooh,
Speaker 2: I feel a different way. And oh then I lost
Speaker 2: my job. Oh now I'm feeling And so we tie
Speaker 2: these two things together that really need to be separated,
Speaker 2: otherwise we're just constantly going to be drug around by
Speaker 2: this thing called money.
Speaker 1: Love to know too, because I'm hearing you share all
Speaker 1: of these and what is the balance? Right? We talk
Speaker 1: about what is enough? But then it's okay, there is
Speaker 1: a level of I do need to save and I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be in debt, and I also
Speaker 1: would like to live my life. Where is this middle ground?
Speaker 1: Where do we find that? How do we find that?
Speaker 2: I think it comes from really thinking out the choices
Speaker 2: that we're making and really having some ownership, which kind
Speaker 2: of sucks a lot at the time. Over it, I
Speaker 2: will say I struggle with this myself, I don't really
Speaker 2: want to do that, or oh, I really want to
Speaker 2: go out and spend the money. And so I like
Speaker 2: to teach like a pause. So you're up against a
Speaker 2: spending decision, right, just built in half a second pause
Speaker 2: where you can ask yourself, Okay, this is really what
Speaker 2: I want to do. If the answer is yeah, I
Speaker 2: really want to do it, Okay, am I gonna be
Speaker 2: okay with it tomorrow? I don't know, build yourself in
Speaker 2: this little questioning model. Now A lot of times the
Speaker 2: answer can be yes, right, because this is not we're
Speaker 2: not going for absolute perfection here. We're going for seventy
Speaker 2: percent of the time. Maybe I pause and decide, Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna you know what, I'm gonna wait till tomorrow,
Speaker 2: and if I still want to buy the thing tomorrow,
Speaker 2: then I'll go ahead and do it right. And we
Speaker 2: know usually tomorrow comes and we've already decided we don't
Speaker 2: need the thing.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So I think you need to create a system for
Speaker 2: yourself where you build in some of these tiny little
Speaker 2: pauses where you can think through your spending and saving
Speaker 2: decisions in a way that feels a little bit more
Speaker 2: grounded and a little less like, especially around spending right,
Speaker 2: a little less I need a dopamine hit. Can I
Speaker 2: get my dopamine hit somewhere else? Like maybe I should
Speaker 2: just go have a piece of chocolate or go for
Speaker 2: a walk or something. And then sometimes it's no, I
Speaker 2: need the dopamine hit. I'm just gonna go buy the thing.
Speaker 2: But bringing this sense of intention so instead of feeling
Speaker 2: like you're out of control with it, especially if you
Speaker 2: have debt, right and you want to pay off the debt,
Speaker 2: it's bring it back into your body, bring it back
Speaker 2: into your nervous system and saying, okay, let me try
Speaker 2: to be a little bit more intentional with the decisions
Speaker 2: I make, and that then is going to help me
Speaker 2: be more intentional with how I approach paying off this debt.
Speaker 1: That's really good and it's so funny you mentioned that
Speaker 1: because I really think about this conversation that I have too,
Speaker 1: because you mentioned the side of women and how we think,
Speaker 1: and my fiance has this more different mindset whereas we
Speaker 1: can always make more money, and I'm like, but I
Speaker 1: don't think we can. I'm not going to ever think
Speaker 1: that way. Money's not it doesn't grow on trees. I
Speaker 1: learned that my whole life growing up. It doesn't come
Speaker 1: out of nowhere. And it's not that he's not even
Speaker 1: reckless with money. It's just more that he is really
Speaker 1: much more intentional about also enjoying our life and being
Speaker 1: happy while also doing the things that we need to
Speaker 1: do and striking that balance that you're talking about of
Speaker 1: intention and something that I've found that really works, especially
Speaker 1: when it comes to purchases, because I'm also trying to
Speaker 1: not just buy a bunch of stuff. I don't like
Speaker 1: to have a lot of stuff. And I always sit
Speaker 1: there for a few days if it's a big purchase
Speaker 1: that I'm about to make, me big purchase over one
Speaker 1: hundred dollars, right, like an a lot of things that
Speaker 1: cost almost one hundred dollars by themselves these days, but
Speaker 1: all over one hundred dollars, And I look at it
Speaker 1: and I say, do I love this? Is it going
Speaker 1: to just make me the happiest person in the world
Speaker 1: to own whatever I'm about to buy? And if I
Speaker 1: can't confidently say yes, I love this, this is everything
Speaker 1: that I need, I'm going to think about it. If
Speaker 1: I leave and I don't buy it, then I won't
Speaker 1: get it. If I do not feel so much overlapping
Speaker 1: joy over this one thing, I won't get it. And
Speaker 1: that's what you're talking about with that pause.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's such a beautiful example. And you bring up
Speaker 2: your your fiance, and this is where money gets really
Speaker 2: tricky with relationships, because we tend to choose the person
Speaker 2: who has a different money personality than we have, and
Speaker 2: also that person has grown up with their own belief
Speaker 2: systems around money and their own experiences, and so you
Speaker 2: put that on top of us individually having really no
Speaker 2: idea what our own relationship is around money, and you're
Speaker 2: trying to bridge two people coming together, and it usually
Speaker 2: is this is where arguments come up because you don't
Speaker 2: even necessarily understand why you might be anxious or why
Speaker 2: you might get in arguments about money, and your partner
Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily know either, right, and so you're just like
Speaker 2: to force this classing into each other and it's really learning, Okay,
Speaker 2: what are your strengths, what are my strengths? And how
Speaker 2: do we move just half an inch inward towards each
Speaker 2: other knowing that your strengths are going to continue to
Speaker 2: be yours and mine are going to continue to be mine.
Speaker 2: And we're going to obviously have differences around this thing,
Speaker 2: but let's see if we can do it in a
Speaker 2: way that doesn't ignite one or both of our sort
Speaker 2: of nervous system reactions all the time.
Speaker 1: Yes, And that's why I'm such a listen. I'm a
Speaker 1: big person who I was single for a significant amount
Speaker 1: of time and dating and going through the whole thing,
Speaker 1: and I firmly believe in bringing up financial conversations very
Speaker 1: early on in relationships. If this is somebody that you're
Speaker 1: considering dating, you better at least understand who they are
Speaker 1: with money and what they think about money, and what
Speaker 1: do they like to save, do they not like to save?
Speaker 1: Just what is their whole as we talk about it,
Speaker 1: relationship with money. And I'm such a huge believer in
Speaker 1: that I acted out in that believe. I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: my fiance we were like three or four days and
Speaker 1: I'm like, so let's talk about this really quick. What
Speaker 1: am I getting into here? What's so funny is he
Speaker 1: already knew me pretty well at that point to be like,
Speaker 1: I anticipated you to have these very bold conversations early on,
Speaker 1: and I really am so happy that I did that,
Speaker 1: and I just I wish more people would have those
Speaker 1: conversations very early. I think it would save people a
Speaker 1: lot of this grief and these stress that they enter into.
Speaker 2: And I think too, if you can come at it
Speaker 2: with a sense of curiosity and not blame, that is
Speaker 2: the best way in opening these conversations. So really trying
Speaker 2: to understand, ask questions, Ask open ended questions, and let
Speaker 2: the person respond and don't say something like I wouldn't
Speaker 2: do it that way. Learn about how they interact with money,
Speaker 2: learn about what makes them nervous or anxious around money,
Speaker 2: learn about their childhood around money, like all of this
Speaker 2: is really important information. But if we come at the
Speaker 2: place where we start judging and passing blame, which most
Speaker 2: of us do, then we get into the real sort
Speaker 2: of danger area around this. So I say, just start
Speaker 2: with questions and just if you have to sow your
Speaker 2: mouth shut, just go the h okay, that's interesting, right,
Speaker 2: and just keep it as information that going forward without
Speaker 2: replying something negative.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and that's how we should approach most conversations, right.
Speaker 1: If you're having a hard conversation, it should be you're
Speaker 1: listening with the intent to listen, not to respond, and
Speaker 1: I know we're all guilty of that. It's hard not
Speaker 1: to because we want to. I don't know if you're
Speaker 1: like me, but I want to help them, Like I
Speaker 1: can help with that. I know what we can do,
Speaker 1: and I very much didn't. And I was proud of
Speaker 1: myself in this situation. I was like, Okay, yeah, and
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking my mind, I can work with that.
Speaker 1: This is stuff that like, we clearly are similar in
Speaker 1: a lot of ways, but it also reminds me of
Speaker 1: I see a lot of people talk about how they
Speaker 1: either grow up with SODA's and apps family, or they
Speaker 1: grew up with a water only family. This is also
Speaker 1: a topic of conversation.
Speaker 2: That's a great way to open up the conversation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, were you getting only waters or did you also
Speaker 1: experience a lot of joy around the dinner table when
Speaker 1: you go on to eat with every food item you
Speaker 1: could possibly have. It's a very easy way to start
Speaker 1: having that conversation. I actually love it. It's funny to
Speaker 1: see the differences of people through that.
Speaker 2: That is great. I love that and any questions like that, right,
Speaker 2: if we can just be if we can laugh about it,
Speaker 2: if we can have fun with it, especially when you're
Speaker 2: dating somebody that just takes the person off from immediately
Speaker 2: like feeling defensive, maybe about having to justify something. And
Speaker 2: if the other person is in debt or has student
Speaker 2: loan debt or whatever it might be, or business failed
Speaker 2: or something like that, they already feel bad enough. I
Speaker 2: guarantee you about it. So yeah, I love that. Come
Speaker 2: with fun, come with compassion, and it will change how
Speaker 2: you interact.
Speaker 1: We talk about money, but money's another one of those
Speaker 1: like really which is so interesting to me. Another thing,
Speaker 1: especially as women, we've been told not to talk about money.
Speaker 1: Don't talk about your finances, don't talk about what this is,
Speaker 1: don't talk about how much you make. Don't you dare
Speaker 1: find out what anybody else makes. There's this very kind
Speaker 1: of hard conversation about not talking about money, and I
Speaker 1: have liked to be a little devil on the shoulder
Speaker 1: with that one and not done that. I very much
Speaker 1: like to talk about money. So I'm curious your thoughts
Speaker 1: on this because I think it's important. That's why we're
Speaker 1: having this whole episode.
Speaker 2: I think it's really important. Like I wish when we
Speaker 2: went out with our girlfriends we would talk about not
Speaker 2: just like getting the raises and scoring the big deals,
Speaker 2: but also talk about oof, I spent way too much
Speaker 2: last month, or oh I'm paying off that last bit
Speaker 2: of debt, or oh whatever it might be like, talk
Speaker 2: about the things that feel shameful, maybe the things that
Speaker 2: we never say out loud, but open them up as
Speaker 2: conversations because I think that it helps the other person
Speaker 2: as much as I know that it helps you. And
Speaker 2: we can bring this this language around talking about money,
Speaker 2: maybe we can change the dynamic, and we can change
Speaker 2: how we ternalize it, just from the act of being
Speaker 2: able to talk about these topics that feel very taboo,
Speaker 2: especially around money.
Speaker 1: Very much so. And again, I don't want it to
Speaker 1: be taboo anymore. If you're listening to this, I hope
Speaker 1: you start having these conversations with girlfriends at dinner or
Speaker 1: you're just talking about it a little bit more here
Speaker 1: and there, maybe not to like the cashier at Kroger, but.
Speaker 2: You know, that could be like a really good conversation.
Speaker 2: You never know, Dang, I.
Speaker 1: Can't believe my hunter for me that could open up.
Speaker 1: Grocers are intensive right now. So you also talk a
Speaker 1: lot about how people feel shame around money, and that's
Speaker 1: really not how it's supposed to be, but feeling that
Speaker 1: way makes them feel stuck, and the stuckness is what
Speaker 1: gets a lot of people caught when it comes to
Speaker 1: finances and moving forward. We discussed that how to do
Speaker 1: something about where you're feeling right now. But I'm so
Speaker 1: curious about this stuck face that a lot of people
Speaker 1: get in because cycles love to repeat themselves, and if
Speaker 1: we can avoid that would be awesome for a lot
Speaker 1: of people.
Speaker 2: I think she is the most prevalent emotion around money
Speaker 2: that people feel like it's just built in almost We
Speaker 2: live in a very scarcity driven society, so it's hard
Speaker 2: to escape it. Even you turn on the TV and
Speaker 2: watch the commercials, and if you watch it from like
Speaker 2: a different lens, you'll notice how many times money has
Speaker 2: talked about, and how many times it's talked about in
Speaker 2: the context of you're not where you should be, or
Speaker 2: you're behind, or just something like that. Right, You're just
Speaker 2: constantly hearing these messages over and over again. And I
Speaker 2: think what's interesting about shame is it could be something
Speaker 2: tiny that maybe caused a sense of shame, or could
Speaker 2: be something big, and so we all have a different
Speaker 2: definition or a different experience I should say around shame,
Speaker 2: but we all internalize it and it creates a stuckness
Speaker 2: because when we're in a pattern of feeling shameful about
Speaker 2: whatever it might be, it doesn't tell our nervous system.
Speaker 2: It actually tells our nervous system you can't be trusted
Speaker 2: around money. And when you feel like you can't be
Speaker 2: trusted about around money, you're not going to make decisions
Speaker 2: that are in your best interest, or usually you don't
Speaker 2: make any decision at all because you just get in
Speaker 2: this freeze place where it's if I just don't do anything,
Speaker 2: maybe that will make me feel better, and so it
Speaker 2: doesn't spoiler alert. And so this stuckness is really getting
Speaker 2: to what is it? Why am I stuck?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I keep using the debt example, but it's the most
Speaker 2: prevalent example. Maybe it's I'm in some debt, whether I
Speaker 2: have a student loan debt or whatever it might be,
Speaker 2: and I feel stuck. I make some payments, I get ahead,
Speaker 2: and then there's more interest and like I just can't
Speaker 2: get ahead. So it's really thinking about, Okay, what does
Speaker 2: it go back to this? What is in my control?
Speaker 2: What is that in my control? Is there any way
Speaker 2: I could find like an extra twenty bucks a month. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: maybe I could do that. Okay, maybe that twenty extra
Speaker 2: buck is like the springboard to start paying more of
Speaker 2: that debt off. And then maybe that thinking about you
Speaker 2: know what I could do that. Maybe then that tells
Speaker 2: my nervous system, ooh there's other things I could do.
Speaker 2: Oh I could do this and this, and oh oh
Speaker 2: I can make this decision instead of that decision. And
Speaker 2: maybe I have drinks at home and I only have
Speaker 2: one drink out with my friends or whatever it might be,
Speaker 2: and you start to see opportunities. So when you're in
Speaker 2: the place of shame, you're just in a shutdown mode
Speaker 2: and you just it's not that you don't have the skills,
Speaker 2: it's not that you're not smart, it's not any of
Speaker 2: those things. It's just your body is wired to keep
Speaker 2: you in that place because we're still like that way back.
Speaker 2: We're still like the people where we're trying to outrun
Speaker 2: the tigers. Our bodies still feel that same way, and
Speaker 2: so start thinking about what is a tiny little something
Speaker 2: I can do, tiny little thing, tiny little step. If
Speaker 2: we're in five thousand dollars a debt going to pay
Speaker 2: it all off tomorrow, But could I pay off ten
Speaker 2: dollars this month? Maybe that's a tiny step. And those
Speaker 2: tiny steps are going to budge you out of that
Speaker 2: place of stuckness, and it's also going to help tame
Speaker 2: down that shame a little bit. It doesn't all go away,
Speaker 2: but it's just going to start moving you forward. And
Speaker 2: when you can start to see progress, your body, your brain,
Speaker 2: everything starts to respond to that happening.
Speaker 1: And I love this so much because I do feel
Speaker 1: debt is such a unfortunately important topic for so many people,
Speaker 1: even though we don't talk about that often, just like
Speaker 1: we don't talk about finances. A lot of people don't
Speaker 1: talk about their debt and the things because it's associated
Speaker 1: with shame, and nobody wants to admit that they're in
Speaker 1: debt or that they have things. And there's so many
Speaker 1: people that are dealing with this, and debt is that
Speaker 1: like hot button of I feel like as soon as
Speaker 1: you even say that word, it triggers people to something
Speaker 1: in them, just me idiately, like shivers where they're just
Speaker 1: I have to identify this, and I am curious your take.
Speaker 1: I love the tools to be able to start paying
Speaker 1: off that debt, but somebody who is in it and
Speaker 1: they're trying to figure things out with their life, but
Speaker 1: they also want to live because there is this also.
Speaker 1: I know I always have this thought in my mind
Speaker 1: where I really want to save money, but what if
Speaker 1: I'm not alive tomorrow and I don't ever get to
Speaker 1: spend it? And that thought creeps in my mind way
Speaker 1: more often than it probably should. But I imagine a lot
Speaker 1: of people who are experiencing debt also have that where they're, yes,
Speaker 1: I want to pay it off, but what happens if
Speaker 1: I'm not here tomorrow and I never did anything I
Speaker 1: wanted to do? So how do you handle that subject
Speaker 1: where it's, yes, you need to pay this off and
Speaker 1: take care of it, but also you want to live
Speaker 1: life a little bit. It is such a good.
Speaker 2: Question, and I will say, and I talk about this
Speaker 2: in my book with extreme honesty. I am a money expert,
Speaker 2: and I have been in and out of debt myself.
Speaker 2: I have probably made every money mistake humanly possible. And
Speaker 2: I feel like it's important for someone like me to
Speaker 2: say that because I know all the things you should do.
Speaker 2: I know all the tips the tricks, like I know
Speaker 2: all of that, and yet I've still had these things happen,
Speaker 2: and I've still battled with exactly what you're talking about myself. First,
Speaker 2: just know this is a very normal human reaction. And
Speaker 2: I think there's a couple of things to think about.
Speaker 2: One is that you are on your own personal journey
Speaker 2: and your own personal relationship with money, and you are
Speaker 2: the one that gets to set the rules. So if
Speaker 2: you're in debt, but you're like, you know what, I
Speaker 2: really want to go on a vacation with my friends
Speaker 2: or my partner, that's your decision to make, and you
Speaker 2: can actually make that decision. You could make that decision, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I need to go on the vacation, Like the vacation
Speaker 2: is going to give me a mental health break. I'm
Speaker 2: gonna have fun, it's gonna be memories, blah blah blah,
Speaker 2: whatever it is. You don't have to justify that to yourself.
Speaker 2: You just go on the vacation. Or you could decide
Speaker 2: and I really want to focus on paying off the debt, right,
Speaker 2: But only you get to decide what is right and
Speaker 2: what is wrong. No one else gets to tell you
Speaker 2: what that is. So that's the first thing I want
Speaker 2: you to know. Even though all the textberoks, all the
Speaker 2: experts will say, Nope, you have to stay home and
Speaker 2: just pay off your debt. Right, You're human, like you said,
Speaker 2: So sometimes you're gonna make the choice of I need
Speaker 2: to live. This thing is really important for me, I
Speaker 2: need to see the ocean, et cetera, et cetera. And
Speaker 2: I want you to just go do it without shame.
Speaker 2: If that is your choice, just pick it and go
Speaker 2: and tell yourself, I'm making a choice. There's no shame
Speaker 2: involved in this. But then also if we're looking at okay,
Speaker 2: but I'm in debt, I really want to pay off debt,
Speaker 2: we tend to limit ourselves around what we think we
Speaker 2: can do. There is so much more you can do
Speaker 2: than you think you can do. I tell everyone this,
Speaker 2: I can find money in your bank account. I can
Speaker 2: find money in absolutely anybody's bank account because I'm looking
Speaker 2: for opportunities to find ways we could do something better.
Speaker 2: And there are lots of things like I call my
Speaker 2: cell phone carrier every six months and say, hey, am
Speaker 2: I on the best plan? Is there a better plan?
Speaker 2: And I would say probably eight out of ten times,
Speaker 2: I end up saving like twenty or thirty bucks a
Speaker 2: month because there's a better plan that comes out, or
Speaker 2: shopping my car insurance or things like that that may
Speaker 2: seem like a chore, but these are like little extra
Speaker 2: buckets of money that I can find where I don't
Speaker 2: have to earn more money, but then I can reposition
Speaker 2: that towards debt or towards whatever I want it to
Speaker 2: go towards. There are opportunities inside your bank account right now.
Speaker 2: You just need to find them. And you can find
Speaker 2: them when you start letting go of the shame and
Speaker 2: just saying, let me see if there's like some interesting
Speaker 2: things I can do here. But there are other options
Speaker 2: to pay off debt. Right Maybe you're gonna have to
Speaker 2: get a personal loan. Maybe you might have to get
Speaker 2: a second job just to pay off that debt. We
Speaker 2: get stuck in like our own. I don't want to
Speaker 2: do that. I have a friend who lost their job,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, you go Trader Joe's right now and
Speaker 2: get like probably a really good paying job to bring
Speaker 2: in some man. Oh, I don't know that. What does
Speaker 2: that say about me? And I've got degrees, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: what choice do you want to make? Like you have options,
Speaker 2: you have things in your control So that's the second
Speaker 2: part of this, right, is what do I want and
Speaker 2: broadening the vision to go, oh, there are actually some
Speaker 2: things I can do right, and it's actually maybe not
Speaker 2: that hard. Like I can actually do a few things.
Speaker 2: I love to bake cupcakes, and so I bake cupcakes,
Speaker 2: and everybody hires me for like their parties and things.
Speaker 2: It's an extra fifty bucks every time somebody buys a
Speaker 2: dozen of cupcakes. I can take that money and I
Speaker 2: can put it towards something else. So those are just
Speaker 2: a couple of things. I wish there was like a
Speaker 2: magic answer, but those are just a couple of things
Speaker 2: to think about. But I really want you to know
Speaker 2: like you have ultimate choice in what you decide. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I want you to be human too, and I also
Speaker 2: want you to pay off debt. And you don't have
Speaker 2: to do the two things all at once, Like you
Speaker 2: can pick and choose, but pick and choose without that
Speaker 2: sense of shame.
Speaker 1: I know you said there's no magic answer, but I
Speaker 1: really liked your answer. I thought it was great, and
Speaker 1: I gave us the ability to have both because that
Speaker 1: is the human experience right there. There is not a
Speaker 1: single person in this world who doesn't want to not
Speaker 1: pay off their debt, who doesn't want to save money,
Speaker 1: who would also like to go on vacations, who would
Speaker 1: also like to do the things that they allow them
Speaker 1: to live their life. There's not a single person who
Speaker 1: would not disagree with any of those things. And so
Speaker 1: to really start to understand that relationship that we have
Speaker 1: with life is what you're doing to help people truly
Speaker 1: get a better way of living with their finances. And
Speaker 1: I think that's so cool. So magic answer to me.
Speaker 1: I know it's not the actual magic answer, and we
Speaker 1: can't just like any boppityboo and debt is gone. That
Speaker 1: would be great, but I loved your answer. I thought
Speaker 1: it was awesome, So thank you. I do love to
Speaker 1: end the podcast with a piece of advice or a
Speaker 1: piece of motivation or inspiration or just something maybe we
Speaker 1: didn't talk about where you it feels really heavy for
Speaker 1: you that you were like, I need to share this information.
Speaker 1: So it's where I just hand the platform over to
Speaker 1: you and you're gonna take us on whatever journey you
Speaker 1: want to end this thing.
Speaker 2: Wow, we have talked about so much when it comes
Speaker 2: to money. I also give you just one extra little
Speaker 2: something to do a little journal prompt for the journal
Speaker 2: listeners out there. This is something I love to do.
Speaker 2: I end every night with this. I write myself what
Speaker 2: I call a Hey shawna letter, so whatever your name is,
Speaker 2: a Morgan, whatever, and I literally just get out everything
Speaker 2: around money that has been stored up during the day.
Speaker 2: So sometimes it's good things, sometimes it's bad things. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it's me cursing at the it. Sometimes it's me can't
Speaker 2: decide what I'm doing about a certain option, but I
Speaker 2: just get it out of my head and get it
Speaker 2: down on paper. And I would say, find something we
Speaker 2: talked about lots of different tools, but find something that
Speaker 2: works for you, that feels like you can have some
Speaker 2: sort of ease around money, because that's what I want
Speaker 2: you to feel, not that it's always going to be easy,
Speaker 2: but that you can sit in the messy and you
Speaker 2: still have this sense of ease.
Speaker 1: Oh that's really good. And you loved us with something
Speaker 1: to do. I love an activity. My journal has all
Speaker 1: kinds of different scribbles in it. Now it'll have another
Speaker 1: scribble in it of different things. So Shanna, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for your expertise and being vulnerable and sharing
Speaker 1: parts of your story. Too, and it was just really
Speaker 1: awesome to have you on.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
Speaker 1: If you resonated with Shawna's story, you can connect with
Speaker 1: her more on social media at Shauna Game or check
Speaker 1: out her book, Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. More to
Speaker 1: come in the next few weeks on all things love
Speaker 1: and relationships. If there's anything you want me to address
Speaker 1: under that umbrella, then dm me on Instagram at take
Speaker 1: this personally. If this is where I leave you, I
Speaker 1: hope you have a great week, Stay safe. Thanks for
Speaker 1: being here with me, and I love you. Please tell
Speaker 1: more people that you love them. That's what this month
Speaker 1: is actually all about, reminding people that we care, we're there,
Speaker 1: and hey, I love you.