WEBVTT - Money Isn’t the Problem, Your Relationship Is 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:19.079 Thank you personally, Fuelsman. It's some of the love and 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.320 all things relationships, and that's what we're going to get 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.479 into all month. But for today, we're talking about a 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.600 relationship that many people may not even realize they have 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.159 a relationship with money. I'm bringing on a woman this 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:33.200 week to share why money isn't just math but emotional wiring. 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:35.600 She's going to help us unpack our money shames so 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.360 we can all move forward to have a better relationship 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:48.040 with money. This week, I'm joined by Shauna Game. I'm 0:00:48.080 --> 0:00:50.320 so excited to talk to her all about money stuff. 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.120 She is the author of Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:55.880 and we are going to do some unraveling today. That's 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.320 what's about to happen. Welcome Shauna. Thanks so much for 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.400 having me de scited to talk to you about all 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.040 the things. But before we get into that, I love 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.960 to hear the background and why this topic is so 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:08.399 important to you. I want to hear a little bit 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.120 of your story and the genesis of all of this 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.440 before we really dive into the good details of everything. 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.520 My first sort of foray into business actually was when 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:21.759 I was in college, and at the time I started 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.399 what was the first national Student Film Festival, and I 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:28.200 ran that for five years and ended up actually selling 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.360 it to a Hollywood producer. Crazy story, but that was 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:35.119 really like my boots on the ground rogue BA style 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:37.600 learning about money, because I had to learn about everything 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:43.040 budgeting and pr and guests and just all sorts of things. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.200 And it wasn't until after that I went and got 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:48.480 an MBA and my dad had been in the financial 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.400 industry his whole career and he had a small firm 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:52.920 and he was like, I'm bored, Do you want to 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.440 come work with me? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:59.320 And it was interesting because at that time he was 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:01.400 working with people who had a lot of money. This 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.840 was in Los Angeles, people with multimillion dollar estates, and 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.720 I was working with my MBA corehorts who knew nothing 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.160 about personal finance. And I started to see the same 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:16.440 things emerged that regardless of how much money somebody had, 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.440 they all got stuck in the same patterns, in the 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.360 same belief systems and the same sort of mindsets around money. 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:26.680 And that was really my first awakening that hey, there's 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.760 more to this than just reading a book, right and 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:31.280 learning how to do a budget and learning how to 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:33.919 save and all those sorts of things. But it really 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:37.400 wasn't until I went through a divorce in my very 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:42.080 early thirties where I lost everything. I lost basically had 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:45.160 to walk away from all my possessions and to pay 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:50.040 my ex husband, and I saw my money that I realized, like, WHOA, Okay, 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:54.840 this relationship with money is a thing, and I better 0:02:54.919 --> 0:02:59.360 start practicing what I'm trying to teach clients, because I 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.000 was not, and I was anxious around money. And that 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:05.320 was really where sort of the genesis of all of 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:08.560 this came together. And I'm a certified financial planner, a 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.120 trauma of money expert. But where I love to play 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:15.919 is with women, and particularly women in what I call 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:19.040 kind of our midlife. Right, so we've had enough things 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:22.960 happen to us, and we are anxious about money. We're 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.240 nervous about money. But on the outside, we're like high 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.520 performing women, right, Like we're doing things and we're in 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.839 our career and we've got families, and nobody would think 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:37.520 that inside we're like these nervous, anxious people around money. 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.640 And so I like to really help decode this for 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:43.040 women and show them that you're not bad with money. Right, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:47.120 you just haven't learned the skill set around unraveling your 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.800 relationship with money and coming to a place where you 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.760 know your nervous system can relax and feel safe around money. 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.560 Okay, so let's start there, because you talk about the 0:03:56.640 --> 0:04:00.200 relationship with money, and so many people I've watched a 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:02.480 lot of your videos and their relationship with money as 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.520 the first it comes to debt or what their net 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.520 worth is, or how have I saved for retirement. There's 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.120 just so much associated with money. But you're the first 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.080 person I've really come across where it's like this relationship 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:18.200 with money. So let's start there. Tell me what that 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.359 looks like for you when you're working with people and 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:22.680 you're seeing relationships with money. 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.640 Morgan, it's just if we're in a relationship with anyone else, 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:30.039 Like I just read that you got engaged right over 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:35.839 the congratulations, thank you. So it's the same thing as 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.840 if you're in relationship with a partner, right, Like you've 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:41.760 got to give some sort of teal see to the relationship. 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:45.679 There's a give and take, there's compromise, there's an effort 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.760 that you have to put into like making a relationship, 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:52.040 and certainly when you're talking about marriage, that's a whole 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.559 other battle of wax. It's the same thing around money, 0:04:54.600 --> 0:04:58.120 because I say that money is the longest relationship we're 0:04:58.160 --> 0:04:59.920 ever going to have in our lives, right, It follo 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.920 from day one all the way until at the very end. 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:11.080 And so most of us are in some sort of negative, shameful, 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.919 guilt ridden relationship around money, like we should do these things, 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.160 but we do the opposite. Or we go spend money 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:19.839 and have drinks to their friends and then we feel 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:23.279 really guilty. Or we read articles right or social media 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.279 about people and we're like, oh, I should have a 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:29.120 seven figure business now and I don't. And it's constantly 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:33.280 around us. And I think the really important thing is 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.839 to first ask yourself, like how do I feel about money? 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.840 And whatever? Your answer to that question is, I need 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:41.400 to dig a little deeper. Why is that? If I'm 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.159 anxious around money? Why is that? Where does that come from? 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:49.599 Did I witness that in childhood? Parents or ever raised me. 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.400 Was I in a maybe a relationship where there was 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:55.400 some sort of financial abuse, or did I struggle when 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:59.240 I came out of college? Where does this anxiety come from? 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:04.040 And that's the police we start at to redevelop and 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.760 sort of rewire this relationship around money. 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.840 Okay, and I'm assuming too, based on what you're saying, 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:12.840 this also relates to their financial trauma that a lot 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.839 of people experience. So they're depending on the things that 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.359 they have experienced through their life and what's gone on. 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.080 There could be this more traumatizing side of that where 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.400 it's not just anxiety and it's not just stressed. It 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:26.720 might be a little bit even further deeper than that. 0:06:28.080 --> 0:06:30.680 Yeah, I use like trauma's kind of a big word, right. 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.440 We hear the word trauma a lot, and I really 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:35.800 just want, if you're listening, you to think about it 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.400 as any place that just feels like a little icky 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:43.360 around money, and it could be something big, like maybe 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:48.080 you grew up in poverty, maybe there was lack For instance, 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.920 my husband grew up in a family where they were 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.479 always having to move because they were always delinquent on 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:59.480 home payments because his stepdad would lose jobs and he 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:01.320 would come up from school and they'd have to like 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:03.680 move to a new house, the electricity would be off, 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.919 or whatever it might be that created like this deep 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:11.880 sense of trauma and just nervous always. We can have 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:15.720 a bill come in and he just you know, immediately 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.880 you can see him go to an anxiety response around that, 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.960 and it's just because it's so wired in him right 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:24.200 from being so young. So you can have something like that. 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.400 But trauma could also show up in situations like maybe 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:32.560 you forgot to pay a bill and maybe that bill 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.080 went to collections, and then maybe it lowered your credit score, 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.640 and so every time you like log down to your 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:45.040 bank app, you're expecting to see something terrible happen, and 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:48.520 you're just like your body and your nervous system is 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.360 just stuck kind of in that moment and it just 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:55.160 doesn't know how to figure its way out. So trauma 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.920 can be something big, but it also could be these 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:03.720 little nuanced moments that don't necessarily have to be negative, 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.160 but they just tell your body like whoa, Okay, we've 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.040 either got a freeze or we got to flee or 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.040 we gotta fights. Right, we have to have some sort 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:13.560 of response that's happening. 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:16.080 And I would imagine too, it also goes on the 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.520 flip side of this too, where if you're so stingy 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.560 with money where you save consistently, you don't utilize your 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:24.880 money for we love to say on social media your 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.080 free will to do things where you'd like to go 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:29.520 out and explore the world and be adventurous or go 0:08:29.560 --> 0:08:32.040 to dinner with your friends, and you're so stingy. I 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.280 would imagine that's also a side to this, and not 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.520 just that really hardcore side. 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:38.960 Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up, because that's 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:42.240 absolutely the truth. Like, we can see it on both sides. 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.600 Sometimes people are stuck in and I see this a 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:47.439 lot with women too. We're stuck in being like older 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:51.640 conservative because we've got the messaging around money that we 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.120 have to be quote unquote good girls, and we're just 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.520 still not sure what that means. Are we supposed to spend? 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.240 Are we supposed to save? Are we supposed to never 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:03.720 do something? Are we supposed to be big in our careers? 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:05.360 Are we supposed to be small in our careers? Like, 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:09.280 it's just your brain is just on overload, and this 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.480 is all of us, right, you're laughing, but I'm I'm 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:13.600 sure you probably like, oh. 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:17.000 Yeah, it's just honestly, anything with being a woman is 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.360 so complex, and this just adds to another list of 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.000 things where I'm like, yeah, that tracks okay, I just 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.640 pushed it aside and probably a lot of my messaging. 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.680 Yeah, for sure, there isn't necessarily like when we talk 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:32.800 about relationship with money, we talk about financial trumba. There 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:36.520 isn't a right or wrong side to be on. And 0:09:36.559 --> 0:09:39.040 that's something I really want people to understand, because I 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.000 feel like there's this falsity out there that there is 0:09:43.040 --> 0:09:46.160 like a perfect way to do money, and there are 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.199 these certain like hierarchies that you need to be at 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.720 certain ages, and if you're not at that hierarchy, then 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:55.760 you know you're not doing something right and you're a 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.960 bad person. And so that really ends up breeding even 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.920 and war, shame and guilt into just an already complex 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.040 environment around money. And so I really want to just 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.040 break down that stereotypes. There isn't anything perfect. There isn't 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:16.280 a necessarily always a right choice. You could do this 0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.560 or you could do that, but it depends on what 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.439 do you ultimately want to do in your life. So 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:24.200 that's I think what makes it really tricky, and it 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.960 makes it hard to just listen to a money podcast 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:29.840 episode or just read a book and be like, oh, 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:32.120 I know instantly what I should do. It's just not 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:33.959 that easy and I so. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.240 Want to keep going down this rabbit hole. But something 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.680 in what you just said really taught me something of 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.920 what I've been seeing a lot on social media. Being 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:44.440 in comment sections is one of my least favorite and 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.040 favorite things. I learn a lot about people. I see 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:49.160 a lot of main people take what you will. But 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.400 something that I've really noticed about a lot of people, 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.560 especially on financial posts, is you're just seeing a lot 0:10:55.559 --> 0:11:00.319 of there's lost hope in the belief that they can 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.520 have things that their parents had, that they can have 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.160 a house when the finances now look so differently, And 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:11.120 there's this conversation about this start comparison about what people 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:14.600 today are experiencing versus what people twenty thirty, fifty years 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:17.719 ago experience when it came to affording things. And I'm 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:20.080 curious your take on this because I feel like this 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.800 is something that would be so in your wheelhouse and 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.440 I'm sad reading a lot of it online and just 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.080 vast differences that people are experiencing. 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:34.560 I think that no matter what generation we're dealing with, 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:39.400 they're gonna be these huge differences. If we look at 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:41.880 our parents and how they grew up, they did not 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.760 have access to social media, like we have. They were 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.680 not online, they were not running podcasts, like, things were 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.800 just very different. If we look back to our grandparents 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:55.199 and my great grandparents generation, specifically women, they did not 0:11:55.320 --> 0:11:58.319 have access to credit they didn't have access to bank accounts, 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:01.120 they didn't have access to credit cards, right, and so 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:06.079 there's always going to be something different in each generation. 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:10.080 And I think it's really easy to highlight the things 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.680 that feel out of our control, right, Like we can't 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.520 control what the stock market's doing, we can't control what 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.400 the interest rates are, we can't control what home prices are, Like, 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:20.640 there are a lot of things that are just absolutely 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:23.360 out of our control. But it's really easy to highlight 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:27.640 those because they make really good headlines. And we're taught 0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:30.600 via social media and now with news that if we 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.120 can't capture your attention in the first three seconds, you're 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.680 not going to pay attention. And so we go with 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.880 these big, splashy, big headlines, especially around money, and that 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.840 makes you feel probably usually even worse about yourself that 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.319 you're not in that situation. But I want you to 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:49.760 focus on what you can control, the things that you 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:53.360 can do, and part of that starts with this relationship 0:12:53.400 --> 0:12:55.920 with money, with thinking about how do I want to 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.440 spend and save my money and what do I actually 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.800 want to spend and save my moneys? And so I 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:06.080 think when we can bring the focus more internal, we 0:13:06.120 --> 0:13:09.440 can feel a greater sense of control and even though 0:13:09.480 --> 0:13:12.200 there are so many things that are up against us, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.760 it doesn't mean we still can't move towards those or 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.839 make those happen. If that makes sense. 0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:22.200 It absolutely does, and I love that because again, this 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:24.520 is just a really hot topic on social media, but 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.080 not even just that people are posting about, but you 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.320 see it on those posts where it goes, if you 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.280 have this amount of money, you can afford this house, 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:34.080 and you can do this in five years and save 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.880 the rabbit holes of especially AI and chat GBT or 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.960 helping people create this content, right, But really in the 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.360 comment section is where the humanity is happening, and people 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.320 are discussing, Okay, I can't afford this, and there's just 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:49.280 feels like this lost hope. And I love the idea 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.959 of talking about relationship with money because I do want 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.360 to give people hope. I want them to have control 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:57.440 of their life back in a sense of what they're 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.440 seeing online may not actually be their reality, even if 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:02.200 it is broken down in a certain way and a 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:06.880 certain chart to show some similar thing. And so, speaking 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.600 on that relationship of money, what can somebody do? You 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:15.320 mention those questions to ask themselves, But what can somebody 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.640 really do to start working on that relationship with money? 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:18.600 Where does that all begin? 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.160 There's an exercise that sounds really simple that I love 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.280 to suggest to people, but I promise you it once 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:30.520 you do it, there's more complexity to it than it sounds. 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.720 But I want you to get out a blank sheet 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.000 of paper. Don't do this on your computer. You actually 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:36.400 need to like handwrite this out. 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:38.720 Oh I love a handwriting activity. 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.960 Handwriting. We're going back to handwriting. Set your phone timer 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.040 for fifteen minutes, and I want you to just get out. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.240 I want you to just write with like reckless, abandon 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.400 everything that you wish you would have done around money, 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:56.440 that feels unfair, that you're upset about, Like everything you 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.360 feel like is a mistake. I just want you to 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:02.080 vomit it out on this sheet of paper. When the 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:05.560 timer's up, step away, just walk away. Come back twenty 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.520 four hours later. Quick read over. You're going to notice 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.920 different patterns that start to emerge when you've removed yourself 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:14.920 a little bit from this. But the last part of 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.040 this exercise is we've got to get rid of it. 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.880 We've got to shred it, burn it, tear it up, 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:24.520 something whatever feels like the right mechanism for you. There 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:28.240 is science behind obviously writing things down on paper, getting 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.240 them out of our heads, right, That helps get it 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.280 out of our nervous system. And then there's science behind 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.440 getting rid of something. And it doesn't immediately take this 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:41.080 stuff away from you, but it starts to tell your 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.760 body and your nervous system. Hey, okay, maybe we don't 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:47.760 like what's happened to us in the past, but there 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.600 is a way we can recreate something moving forward. So 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.080 then I need you to think about what is it 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:59.720 I actually really want and what is actually enough. So 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.760 we spend so much time in what we think other 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.240 people's version of enough is that this is where like 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.800 comparison starts to come up, and a lot of guilt 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:10.400 around money. But I want you to think about what 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.000 is enough for me? How much money do I need, 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.200 what kind of career do I want, where do I 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.600 want to live, what do I like? Really think about that, right, 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.920 because once we can create what enough looks like for you. 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.040 And my guess is there's already some pieces of that 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.960 you're living today, you just might not be recognizing it. 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.880 But once we have that sketch, then it's okay, Now, 0:16:32.960 --> 0:16:35.880 how do we get our money to actually take us 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.880 in that direction? And so we want to start bringing 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.680 this back internally but in a healthy way, so that 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.400 we can start just baby stepping our way towards what 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:48.080 that vision of enoughness is. 0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.360 Oh enoughness? Yeah, And that's tough, right, because we've been 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.760 taught growing up, and I'll speak from my personal experience, 0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:58.280 you get taught certain things growing up. Or you need 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:00.440 to make sure you're saving by this point, make sure 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.400 you have this prepared. You need to have a career 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.600 that sustains you. You need to have financial freedom, you 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.840 need to invest, you need to I can tell you 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.080 the messaging that I've just taken in from every corner 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:17.159 of the world on money, and it's so interesting to 0:17:18.119 --> 0:17:22.199 reframe that to think what actually is enough for me? 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:25.399 Because I've been listening to everybody else this whole time. 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.639 Yes, and you're not alone. That's the beauty. That's the beauty. 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.520 And this is a thing that if I could go 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:37.040 out and just create this movement of especially women. If 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:40.080 we could just talk about all the things that we 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.560 really struggle with around money, we would see that we 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:48.840 are so much alike. It's so funny because every time 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.520 I work with a woman or I have a group 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.840 cohort program and I have twenty women at a time, 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:59.760 they say the exact same things around money. It's just 0:17:59.880 --> 0:18:04.320 like clockwork. And so it's really interesting because like, regardless 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.880 of how much money we make, regardless of our demographic, 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.919 regardless of our backgrounds and our ethnicities, we tend to 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:15.760 fall in the same sort of patterns and mistakes and 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:19.239 beliefs around money. We just don't talk about it, so 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.879 it feels like super isolating and you feel like I 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:26.120 must be the only one who has not done this 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:27.560 or who has done this. 0:18:29.960 --> 0:18:32.600 And I'd love to if you feel like you can, 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.879 I'd love to hear some of those patterns or behaviors 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:37.520 that we're all similar, because sometimes we have to have 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.439 it spelled out to really think, oh, that is me, 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.080 because they could be listening right now, whoever it is, 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:45.720 and be like, that's not me. I haven't done that. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.520 But then you start to hear the language and you're like, 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:51.560 oh crap, that is me. I am in that group. 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:54.520 So some of those patterns, behaviors, things that you see 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.119 a lot of people alike having these same thoughts and 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.200 feelings on if you're able to share, would be awesome. 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.320 For sure, and they're I'm going to just throw them 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:05.719 out and we can dissect whichever ones you want to. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.360 But certainly the first one is always around this enough thing. Right, 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:12.399 So it's always some form of I don't have enough, 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:18.520 I will never have enough, there isn't enough, and it's regardless. Again, 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.080 I worked with someone a couple weeks ago who made 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:25.600 over seven figures a year, and the first thing out 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.480 of her mouth was, my biggest fear is there's not enough. 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:32.960 And so there's just this feeling I think of just 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:39.080 constant lack, and it's just perpetuated by social media and 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:42.320 society and all of this. Right, So this idea of 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.159 I'm behind, I'm just chronically behind. I'm never going to 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:50.240 be able to catch up. Another one is that your money, 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:52.920 and this kind of goes with career, that it should 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:57.320 be a solid upward line that if there are any blips, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:00.159 if I get laid off or a client fires me, 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.399 or whatever it might be in your line of work. 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.639 That doesn't happen to other people. And I'm going to 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.800 tell you other people might not admit it, but it 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.280 happens all the time, all the time. It is never 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.879 an upward line, and anyone who tells you it is 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:21.359 is just lying through their teeth, right. It's their twists 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.280 and turns. And people have to do things like people 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.600 have to pull money out of their retirement plans, people 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:30.240 have to ask parents for loans, people have to turn 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:33.360 to credit cards. There is just stuff that happens. And 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:37.920 so that makes us feel very shameful when we're up 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.680 against those types of decisions because we feel like I'm 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.760 filling the blank age. I should not need to ask 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:48.399 my parents for help, or I should not have to 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.760 put this on a credit card, or I should not 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:52.800 be in debt, or I should not have to pull 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.520 money out of my retirement plan. And so that feels 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:58.119 very lonely, right, and it goes back to this idea 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.040 of I'm not good with money, I can't be trusted 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.080 with money. Look at me, I just did this. A 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.520 lot of women and a lot of people have this 0:21:06.600 --> 0:21:09.080 scenario where you get out of debt and then you 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.000 get back in debt, and then you might get out 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:12.560 of debt, then you might get back in debt, and 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:19.600 you feel so terrible when you're in the place of debt. 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.320 And so what we also tend to do is associate 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.080 whatever numbers in our bank account with our identity. That 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.800 if I have X amount of dollars, ooh, I feel 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.480 a certain way about myself. But if I get a raise, ooh, 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:35.440 I feel a different way. And oh then I lost 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:37.520 my job. Oh now I'm feeling And so we tie 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:42.560 these two things together that really need to be separated, 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:46.000 otherwise we're just constantly going to be drug around by 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:47.119 this thing called money. 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:49.879 Love to know too, because I'm hearing you share all 0:21:49.920 --> 0:21:53.920 of these and what is the balance? Right? We talk 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.840 about what is enough? But then it's okay, there is 0:21:57.880 --> 0:22:00.000 a level of I do need to save and I don't. 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:02.000 I don't want to be in debt, and I also 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.520 would like to live my life. Where is this middle ground? 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:06.560 Where do we find that? How do we find that? 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:11.480 I think it comes from really thinking out the choices 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.440 that we're making and really having some ownership, which kind 0:22:14.440 --> 0:22:17.199 of sucks a lot at the time. Over it, I 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:19.680 will say I struggle with this myself, I don't really 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.280 want to do that, or oh, I really want to 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:25.439 go out and spend the money. And so I like 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:29.439 to teach like a pause. So you're up against a 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:33.560 spending decision, right, just built in half a second pause 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:36.919 where you can ask yourself, Okay, this is really what 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.639 I want to do. If the answer is yeah, I 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:41.200 really want to do it, Okay, am I gonna be 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:44.840 okay with it tomorrow? I don't know, build yourself in 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:48.159 this little questioning model. Now A lot of times the 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:50.120 answer can be yes, right, because this is not we're 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.200 not going for absolute perfection here. We're going for seventy 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.639 percent of the time. Maybe I pause and decide, Okay, 0:22:57.040 --> 0:22:58.840 I'm gonna you know what, I'm gonna wait till tomorrow, 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:01.520 and if I still want to buy the thing tomorrow, 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:04.199 then I'll go ahead and do it right. And we 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:06.800 know usually tomorrow comes and we've already decided we don't 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:07.360 need the thing. 0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:07.640 Right. 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:10.680 So I think you need to create a system for 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.240 yourself where you build in some of these tiny little 0:23:14.400 --> 0:23:18.080 pauses where you can think through your spending and saving 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:21.800 decisions in a way that feels a little bit more 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:26.600 grounded and a little less like, especially around spending right, 0:23:26.680 --> 0:23:29.240 a little less I need a dopamine hit. Can I 0:23:29.280 --> 0:23:31.480 get my dopamine hit somewhere else? Like maybe I should 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:33.679 just go have a piece of chocolate or go for 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:37.159 a walk or something. And then sometimes it's no, I 0:23:37.200 --> 0:23:39.640 need the dopamine hit. I'm just gonna go buy the thing. 0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:43.080 But bringing this sense of intention so instead of feeling 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:48.119 like you're out of control with it, especially if you 0:23:48.200 --> 0:23:50.000 have debt, right and you want to pay off the debt, 0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:53.640 it's bring it back into your body, bring it back 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:56.600 into your nervous system and saying, okay, let me try 0:23:56.600 --> 0:23:59.280 to be a little bit more intentional with the decisions 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.399 I make, and that then is going to help me 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:07.400 be more intentional with how I approach paying off this debt. 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:10.480 That's really good and it's so funny you mentioned that 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:14.600 because I really think about this conversation that I have too, 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:17.400 because you mentioned the side of women and how we think, 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:21.399 and my fiance has this more different mindset whereas we 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:23.840 can always make more money, and I'm like, but I 0:24:23.880 --> 0:24:26.080 don't think we can. I'm not going to ever think 0:24:26.119 --> 0:24:28.439 that way. Money's not it doesn't grow on trees. I 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:30.879 learned that my whole life growing up. It doesn't come 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.880 out of nowhere. And it's not that he's not even 0:24:33.920 --> 0:24:37.399 reckless with money. It's just more that he is really 0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:42.000 much more intentional about also enjoying our life and being 0:24:42.080 --> 0:24:45.159 happy while also doing the things that we need to 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:49.040 do and striking that balance that you're talking about of 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:53.040 intention and something that I've found that really works, especially 0:24:53.040 --> 0:24:55.840 when it comes to purchases, because I'm also trying to 0:24:55.880 --> 0:24:57.639 not just buy a bunch of stuff. I don't like 0:24:57.720 --> 0:25:00.880 to have a lot of stuff. And I always sit 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:02.760 there for a few days if it's a big purchase 0:25:02.760 --> 0:25:04.600 that I'm about to make, me big purchase over one 0:25:04.680 --> 0:25:07.840 hundred dollars, right, like an a lot of things that 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:10.320 cost almost one hundred dollars by themselves these days, but 0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:12.720 all over one hundred dollars, And I look at it 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:15.679 and I say, do I love this? Is it going 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:18.240 to just make me the happiest person in the world 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:21.119 to own whatever I'm about to buy? And if I 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:25.840 can't confidently say yes, I love this, this is everything 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:27.239 that I need, I'm going to think about it. If 0:25:27.240 --> 0:25:29.200 I leave and I don't buy it, then I won't 0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.119 get it. If I do not feel so much overlapping 0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:34.239 joy over this one thing, I won't get it. And 0:25:34.240 --> 0:25:36.000 that's what you're talking about with that pause. 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:40.479 Absolutely, it's such a beautiful example. And you bring up 0:25:40.520 --> 0:25:45.240 your your fiance, and this is where money gets really 0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:50.120 tricky with relationships, because we tend to choose the person 0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:54.560 who has a different money personality than we have, and 0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:58.320 also that person has grown up with their own belief 0:25:58.359 --> 0:26:03.240 systems around money and their own experiences, and so you 0:26:03.359 --> 0:26:07.399 put that on top of us individually having really no 0:26:07.520 --> 0:26:11.640 idea what our own relationship is around money, and you're 0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:15.520 trying to bridge two people coming together, and it usually 0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:19.720 is this is where arguments come up because you don't 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:24.840 even necessarily understand why you might be anxious or why 0:26:24.880 --> 0:26:28.119 you might get in arguments about money, and your partner 0:26:28.160 --> 0:26:32.439 doesn't necessarily know either, right, and so you're just like 0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:36.399 to force this classing into each other and it's really learning, Okay, 0:26:36.400 --> 0:26:39.400 what are your strengths, what are my strengths? And how 0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:43.320 do we move just half an inch inward towards each 0:26:43.320 --> 0:26:46.280 other knowing that your strengths are going to continue to 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:48.320 be yours and mine are going to continue to be mine. 0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:50.920 And we're going to obviously have differences around this thing, 0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:53.520 but let's see if we can do it in a 0:26:53.560 --> 0:26:57.200 way that doesn't ignite one or both of our sort 0:26:57.200 --> 0:26:59.880 of nervous system reactions all the time. 0:27:00.760 --> 0:27:03.000 Yes, And that's why I'm such a listen. I'm a 0:27:03.040 --> 0:27:06.760 big person who I was single for a significant amount 0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:08.800 of time and dating and going through the whole thing, 0:27:08.880 --> 0:27:14.040 and I firmly believe in bringing up financial conversations very 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:16.520 early on in relationships. If this is somebody that you're 0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:19.880 considering dating, you better at least understand who they are 0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:22.280 with money and what they think about money, and what 0:27:23.000 --> 0:27:24.840 do they like to save, do they not like to save? 0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:28.119 Just what is their whole as we talk about it, 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:31.320 relationship with money. And I'm such a huge believer in 0:27:31.359 --> 0:27:33.800 that I acted out in that believe. I'm pretty sure 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:35.680 my fiance we were like three or four days and 0:27:35.680 --> 0:27:37.440 I'm like, so let's talk about this really quick. What 0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.280 am I getting into here? What's so funny is he 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:43.119 already knew me pretty well at that point to be like, 0:27:43.280 --> 0:27:46.679 I anticipated you to have these very bold conversations early on, 0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:50.440 and I really am so happy that I did that, 0:27:50.640 --> 0:27:53.160 and I just I wish more people would have those 0:27:53.160 --> 0:27:56.040 conversations very early. I think it would save people a 0:27:56.040 --> 0:27:58.960 lot of this grief and these stress that they enter into. 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.080 And I think too, if you can come at it 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:07.080 with a sense of curiosity and not blame, that is 0:28:07.200 --> 0:28:11.240 the best way in opening these conversations. So really trying 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:16.120 to understand, ask questions, Ask open ended questions, and let 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:19.960 the person respond and don't say something like I wouldn't 0:28:20.000 --> 0:28:24.200 do it that way. Learn about how they interact with money, 0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:27.439 learn about what makes them nervous or anxious around money, 0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:32.439 learn about their childhood around money, like all of this 0:28:33.119 --> 0:28:36.080 is really important information. But if we come at the 0:28:36.119 --> 0:28:39.880 place where we start judging and passing blame, which most 0:28:39.920 --> 0:28:42.960 of us do, then we get into the real sort 0:28:43.000 --> 0:28:46.360 of danger area around this. So I say, just start 0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:50.000 with questions and just if you have to sow your 0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:55.040 mouth shut, just go the h okay, that's interesting, right, 0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:59.840 and just keep it as information that going forward without 0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:01.360 replying something negative. 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:05.280 Absolutely, and that's how we should approach most conversations, right. 0:29:05.320 --> 0:29:08.520 If you're having a hard conversation, it should be you're 0:29:08.600 --> 0:29:12.360 listening with the intent to listen, not to respond, and 0:29:12.480 --> 0:29:14.560 I know we're all guilty of that. It's hard not 0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:16.440 to because we want to. I don't know if you're 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:17.640 like me, but I want to help them, Like I 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:19.880 can help with that. I know what we can do, 0:29:20.440 --> 0:29:22.640 and I very much didn't. And I was proud of 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:25.040 myself in this situation. I was like, Okay, yeah, and 0:29:25.080 --> 0:29:26.720 I'm just thinking my mind, I can work with that. 0:29:26.840 --> 0:29:29.200 This is stuff that like, we clearly are similar in 0:29:29.240 --> 0:29:31.640 a lot of ways, but it also reminds me of 0:29:31.840 --> 0:29:34.400 I see a lot of people talk about how they 0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:38.080 either grow up with SODA's and apps family, or they 0:29:38.080 --> 0:29:40.880 grew up with a water only family. This is also 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:42.640 a topic of conversation. 0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:47.320 That's a great way to open up the conversation. 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:51.120 Yeah, were you getting only waters or did you also 0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:53.800 experience a lot of joy around the dinner table when 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:55.840 you go on to eat with every food item you 0:29:55.840 --> 0:29:58.720 could possibly have. It's a very easy way to start 0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:01.320 having that conversation. I actually love it. It's funny to 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:04.040 see the differences of people through that. 0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:09.040 That is great. I love that and any questions like that, right, 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:11.240 if we can just be if we can laugh about it, 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:13.760 if we can have fun with it, especially when you're 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:19.200 dating somebody that just takes the person off from immediately 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:22.959 like feeling defensive, maybe about having to justify something. And 0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:25.680 if the other person is in debt or has student 0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:28.760 loan debt or whatever it might be, or business failed 0:30:28.880 --> 0:30:32.160 or something like that, they already feel bad enough. I 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:36.000 guarantee you about it. So yeah, I love that. Come 0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:39.760 with fun, come with compassion, and it will change how 0:30:39.800 --> 0:30:42.120 you interact. 0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:44.840 We talk about money, but money's another one of those 0:30:44.920 --> 0:30:48.440 like really which is so interesting to me. Another thing, 0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:51.640 especially as women, we've been told not to talk about money. 0:30:52.200 --> 0:30:55.240 Don't talk about your finances, don't talk about what this is, 0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:57.440 don't talk about how much you make. Don't you dare 0:30:57.520 --> 0:31:01.080 find out what anybody else makes. There's this very kind 0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:05.440 of hard conversation about not talking about money, and I 0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:08.080 have liked to be a little devil on the shoulder 0:31:08.080 --> 0:31:10.720 with that one and not done that. I very much 0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:14.120 like to talk about money. So I'm curious your thoughts 0:31:14.160 --> 0:31:16.240 on this because I think it's important. That's why we're 0:31:16.240 --> 0:31:17.800 having this whole episode. 0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:20.320 I think it's really important. Like I wish when we 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:24.160 went out with our girlfriends we would talk about not 0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:27.440 just like getting the raises and scoring the big deals, 0:31:27.480 --> 0:31:31.000 but also talk about oof, I spent way too much 0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:34.200 last month, or oh I'm paying off that last bit 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:37.160 of debt, or oh whatever it might be like, talk 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:41.400 about the things that feel shameful, maybe the things that 0:31:41.440 --> 0:31:45.400 we never say out loud, but open them up as 0:31:45.520 --> 0:31:49.479 conversations because I think that it helps the other person 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:52.360 as much as I know that it helps you. And 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:56.200 we can bring this this language around talking about money, 0:31:56.200 --> 0:31:58.800 maybe we can change the dynamic, and we can change 0:31:59.360 --> 0:32:02.640 how we ternalize it, just from the act of being 0:32:02.680 --> 0:32:06.680 able to talk about these topics that feel very taboo, 0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:08.440 especially around money. 0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:10.680 Very much so. And again, I don't want it to 0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:12.720 be taboo anymore. If you're listening to this, I hope 0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:15.120 you start having these conversations with girlfriends at dinner or 0:32:15.440 --> 0:32:17.520 you're just talking about it a little bit more here 0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:20.040 and there, maybe not to like the cashier at Kroger, but. 0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:23.000 You know, that could be like a really good conversation. 0:32:23.200 --> 0:32:25.480 You never know, Dang, I. 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:27.760 Can't believe my hunter for me that could open up. 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:31.640 Grocers are intensive right now. So you also talk a 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:35.120 lot about how people feel shame around money, and that's 0:32:35.120 --> 0:32:37.360 really not how it's supposed to be, but feeling that 0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.880 way makes them feel stuck, and the stuckness is what 0:32:40.960 --> 0:32:42.880 gets a lot of people caught when it comes to 0:32:42.960 --> 0:32:46.480 finances and moving forward. We discussed that how to do 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:49.640 something about where you're feeling right now. But I'm so 0:32:49.680 --> 0:32:52.160 curious about this stuck face that a lot of people 0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:55.280 get in because cycles love to repeat themselves, and if 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:57.320 we can avoid that would be awesome for a lot 0:32:57.320 --> 0:32:57.800 of people. 0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:04.480 I think she is the most prevalent emotion around money 0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:08.840 that people feel like it's just built in almost We 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:13.600 live in a very scarcity driven society, so it's hard 0:33:13.640 --> 0:33:16.440 to escape it. Even you turn on the TV and 0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:19.520 watch the commercials, and if you watch it from like 0:33:19.560 --> 0:33:22.440 a different lens, you'll notice how many times money has 0:33:22.480 --> 0:33:24.680 talked about, and how many times it's talked about in 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:27.000 the context of you're not where you should be, or 0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:30.080 you're behind, or just something like that. Right, You're just 0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:34.240 constantly hearing these messages over and over again. And I 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:37.719 think what's interesting about shame is it could be something 0:33:37.960 --> 0:33:40.600 tiny that maybe caused a sense of shame, or could 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:43.920 be something big, and so we all have a different 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:48.760 definition or a different experience I should say around shame, 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:52.800 but we all internalize it and it creates a stuckness 0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:56.520 because when we're in a pattern of feeling shameful about 0:33:56.720 --> 0:34:01.000 whatever it might be, it doesn't tell our nervous system. 0:34:01.160 --> 0:34:04.080 It actually tells our nervous system you can't be trusted 0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:06.200 around money. And when you feel like you can't be 0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:09.120 trusted about around money, you're not going to make decisions 0:34:09.719 --> 0:34:12.640 that are in your best interest, or usually you don't 0:34:12.640 --> 0:34:15.600 make any decision at all because you just get in 0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:19.920 this freeze place where it's if I just don't do anything, 0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:24.080 maybe that will make me feel better, and so it 0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:30.320 doesn't spoiler alert. And so this stuckness is really getting 0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:32.400 to what is it? Why am I stuck? 0:34:32.800 --> 0:34:33.200 I don't know. 0:34:33.280 --> 0:34:35.680 I keep using the debt example, but it's the most 0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.560 prevalent example. Maybe it's I'm in some debt, whether I 0:34:38.560 --> 0:34:40.400 have a student loan debt or whatever it might be, 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:43.360 and I feel stuck. I make some payments, I get ahead, 0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:45.840 and then there's more interest and like I just can't 0:34:46.200 --> 0:34:50.040 get ahead. So it's really thinking about, Okay, what does 0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:51.840 it go back to this? What is in my control? 0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:54.200 What is that in my control? Is there any way 0:34:54.280 --> 0:34:58.360 I could find like an extra twenty bucks a month. Yeah, okay, 0:34:58.400 --> 0:35:01.320 maybe I could do that. Okay, maybe that twenty extra 0:35:01.360 --> 0:35:05.520 buck is like the springboard to start paying more of 0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:07.960 that debt off. And then maybe that thinking about you 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:10.880 know what I could do that. Maybe then that tells 0:35:10.880 --> 0:35:13.520 my nervous system, ooh there's other things I could do. 0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:16.160 Oh I could do this and this, and oh oh 0:35:16.239 --> 0:35:18.879 I can make this decision instead of that decision. And 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:20.920 maybe I have drinks at home and I only have 0:35:20.960 --> 0:35:24.160 one drink out with my friends or whatever it might be, 0:35:24.200 --> 0:35:27.200 and you start to see opportunities. So when you're in 0:35:27.280 --> 0:35:30.320 the place of shame, you're just in a shutdown mode 0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:33.480 and you just it's not that you don't have the skills, 0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:36.680 it's not that you're not smart, it's not any of 0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:41.040 those things. It's just your body is wired to keep 0:35:41.080 --> 0:35:44.480 you in that place because we're still like that way back. 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:46.640 We're still like the people where we're trying to outrun 0:35:46.680 --> 0:35:50.879 the tigers. Our bodies still feel that same way, and 0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:54.880 so start thinking about what is a tiny little something 0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:58.400 I can do, tiny little thing, tiny little step. If 0:35:58.400 --> 0:36:00.440 we're in five thousand dollars a debt going to pay 0:36:00.440 --> 0:36:02.479 it all off tomorrow, But could I pay off ten 0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:06.080 dollars this month? Maybe that's a tiny step. And those 0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:08.600 tiny steps are going to budge you out of that 0:36:08.760 --> 0:36:13.280 place of stuckness, and it's also going to help tame 0:36:13.400 --> 0:36:16.680 down that shame a little bit. It doesn't all go away, 0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:20.040 but it's just going to start moving you forward. And 0:36:20.080 --> 0:36:23.680 when you can start to see progress, your body, your brain, 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.080 everything starts to respond to that happening. 0:36:28.200 --> 0:36:30.720 And I love this so much because I do feel 0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:36.280 debt is such a unfortunately important topic for so many people, 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:39.040 even though we don't talk about that often, just like 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:41.000 we don't talk about finances. A lot of people don't 0:36:41.000 --> 0:36:43.440 talk about their debt and the things because it's associated 0:36:43.480 --> 0:36:45.320 with shame, and nobody wants to admit that they're in 0:36:45.400 --> 0:36:48.680 debt or that they have things. And there's so many 0:36:48.680 --> 0:36:51.799 people that are dealing with this, and debt is that 0:36:52.000 --> 0:36:55.960 like hot button of I feel like as soon as 0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:59.120 you even say that word, it triggers people to something 0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:01.560 in them, just me idiately, like shivers where they're just 0:37:02.120 --> 0:37:06.120 I have to identify this, and I am curious your take. 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:09.080 I love the tools to be able to start paying 0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:11.400 off that debt, but somebody who is in it and 0:37:11.480 --> 0:37:14.960 they're trying to figure things out with their life, but 0:37:14.960 --> 0:37:17.760 they also want to live because there is this also. 0:37:18.320 --> 0:37:21.000 I know I always have this thought in my mind 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:23.480 where I really want to save money, but what if 0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:25.680 I'm not alive tomorrow and I don't ever get to 0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:29.520 spend it? And that thought creeps in my mind way 0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:33.359 more often than it probably should. But I imagine a lot 0:37:33.360 --> 0:37:36.520 of people who are experiencing debt also have that where they're, yes, 0:37:36.560 --> 0:37:38.120 I want to pay it off, but what happens if 0:37:38.160 --> 0:37:40.000 I'm not here tomorrow and I never did anything I 0:37:40.040 --> 0:37:43.560 wanted to do? So how do you handle that subject 0:37:43.600 --> 0:37:45.640 where it's, yes, you need to pay this off and 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:48.680 take care of it, but also you want to live 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:52.040 life a little bit. It is such a good. 0:37:51.920 --> 0:37:55.680 Question, and I will say, and I talk about this 0:37:55.800 --> 0:37:59.560 in my book with extreme honesty. I am a money expert, 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:01.520 and I have been in and out of debt myself. 0:38:01.680 --> 0:38:07.080 I have probably made every money mistake humanly possible. And 0:38:07.360 --> 0:38:09.840 I feel like it's important for someone like me to 0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:12.520 say that because I know all the things you should do. 0:38:13.320 --> 0:38:15.400 I know all the tips the tricks, like I know 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:18.399 all of that, and yet I've still had these things happen, 0:38:18.480 --> 0:38:23.520 and I've still battled with exactly what you're talking about myself. First, 0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:28.279 just know this is a very normal human reaction. And 0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:30.440 I think there's a couple of things to think about. 0:38:30.480 --> 0:38:34.520 One is that you are on your own personal journey 0:38:34.560 --> 0:38:37.839 and your own personal relationship with money, and you are 0:38:37.880 --> 0:38:40.560 the one that gets to set the rules. So if 0:38:40.600 --> 0:38:42.799 you're in debt, but you're like, you know what, I 0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:44.840 really want to go on a vacation with my friends 0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:48.799 or my partner, that's your decision to make, and you 0:38:48.840 --> 0:38:52.160 can actually make that decision. You could make that decision, Yeah, 0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:54.080 I need to go on the vacation, Like the vacation 0:38:54.280 --> 0:38:57.040 is going to give me a mental health break. I'm 0:38:57.040 --> 0:38:59.719 gonna have fun, it's gonna be memories, blah blah blah, 0:38:59.760 --> 0:39:02.440 whatever it is. You don't have to justify that to yourself. 0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:04.840 You just go on the vacation. Or you could decide 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:07.160 and I really want to focus on paying off the debt, right, 0:39:07.520 --> 0:39:10.600 But only you get to decide what is right and 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:13.880 what is wrong. No one else gets to tell you 0:39:13.920 --> 0:39:15.600 what that is. So that's the first thing I want 0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:18.680 you to know. Even though all the textberoks, all the 0:39:18.719 --> 0:39:21.359 experts will say, Nope, you have to stay home and 0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:24.400 just pay off your debt. Right, You're human, like you said, 0:39:24.600 --> 0:39:27.279 So sometimes you're gonna make the choice of I need 0:39:27.320 --> 0:39:30.319 to live. This thing is really important for me, I 0:39:30.320 --> 0:39:32.719 need to see the ocean, et cetera, et cetera. And 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:34.560 I want you to just go do it without shame. 0:39:34.960 --> 0:39:37.480 If that is your choice, just pick it and go 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:40.160 and tell yourself, I'm making a choice. There's no shame 0:39:40.200 --> 0:39:43.160 involved in this. But then also if we're looking at okay, 0:39:43.160 --> 0:39:45.200 but I'm in debt, I really want to pay off debt, 0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:48.719 we tend to limit ourselves around what we think we 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:52.360 can do. There is so much more you can do 0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:55.319 than you think you can do. I tell everyone this, 0:39:55.520 --> 0:39:58.040 I can find money in your bank account. I can 0:39:58.160 --> 0:40:03.040 find money in absolutely anybody's bank account because I'm looking 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:06.640 for opportunities to find ways we could do something better. 0:40:06.840 --> 0:40:08.759 And there are lots of things like I call my 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.520 cell phone carrier every six months and say, hey, am 0:40:11.560 --> 0:40:13.320 I on the best plan? Is there a better plan? 0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:15.800 And I would say probably eight out of ten times, 0:40:15.800 --> 0:40:17.960 I end up saving like twenty or thirty bucks a 0:40:17.960 --> 0:40:19.960 month because there's a better plan that comes out, or 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:23.040 shopping my car insurance or things like that that may 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:26.720 seem like a chore, but these are like little extra 0:40:26.880 --> 0:40:29.480 buckets of money that I can find where I don't 0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:31.680 have to earn more money, but then I can reposition 0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:35.040 that towards debt or towards whatever I want it to 0:40:35.080 --> 0:40:38.799 go towards. There are opportunities inside your bank account right now. 0:40:38.960 --> 0:40:43.040 You just need to find them. And you can find 0:40:43.080 --> 0:40:44.960 them when you start letting go of the shame and 0:40:45.040 --> 0:40:47.280 just saying, let me see if there's like some interesting 0:40:47.320 --> 0:40:49.960 things I can do here. But there are other options 0:40:49.960 --> 0:40:52.040 to pay off debt. Right Maybe you're gonna have to 0:40:52.040 --> 0:40:54.680 get a personal loan. Maybe you might have to get 0:40:54.719 --> 0:40:57.880 a second job just to pay off that debt. We 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:00.000 get stuck in like our own. I don't want to 0:41:00.120 --> 0:41:02.640 do that. I have a friend who lost their job, 0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:05.200 and I'm like, you go Trader Joe's right now and 0:41:05.280 --> 0:41:08.359 get like probably a really good paying job to bring 0:41:08.400 --> 0:41:10.440 in some man. Oh, I don't know that. What does 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:12.880 that say about me? And I've got degrees, and I'm like, 0:41:13.000 --> 0:41:15.560 what choice do you want to make? Like you have options, 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:19.600 you have things in your control So that's the second 0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:22.080 part of this, right, is what do I want and 0:41:22.400 --> 0:41:24.680 broadening the vision to go, oh, there are actually some 0:41:24.760 --> 0:41:27.080 things I can do right, and it's actually maybe not 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:29.720 that hard. Like I can actually do a few things. 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:33.919 I love to bake cupcakes, and so I bake cupcakes, 0:41:34.040 --> 0:41:36.839 and everybody hires me for like their parties and things. 0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:39.920 It's an extra fifty bucks every time somebody buys a 0:41:40.120 --> 0:41:43.239 dozen of cupcakes. I can take that money and I 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:47.160 can put it towards something else. So those are just 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.160 a couple of things. I wish there was like a 0:41:49.200 --> 0:41:51.319 magic answer, but those are just a couple of things 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:52.960 to think about. But I really want you to know 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:55.799 like you have ultimate choice in what you decide. Yeah, 0:41:55.800 --> 0:41:58.440 I want you to be human too, and I also 0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:00.080 want you to pay off debt. And you don't have 0:42:00.200 --> 0:42:02.840 to do the two things all at once, Like you 0:42:02.880 --> 0:42:05.640 can pick and choose, but pick and choose without that 0:42:05.800 --> 0:42:06.760 sense of shame. 0:42:07.719 --> 0:42:09.480 I know you said there's no magic answer, but I 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:11.759 really liked your answer. I thought it was great, and 0:42:11.800 --> 0:42:15.000 I gave us the ability to have both because that 0:42:15.120 --> 0:42:18.239 is the human experience right there. There is not a 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:20.960 single person in this world who doesn't want to not 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:23.120 pay off their debt, who doesn't want to save money, 0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:25.600 who would also like to go on vacations, who would 0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:28.319 also like to do the things that they allow them 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:30.200 to live their life. There's not a single person who 0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:33.360 would not disagree with any of those things. And so 0:42:33.800 --> 0:42:37.160 to really start to understand that relationship that we have 0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:41.440 with life is what you're doing to help people truly 0:42:41.760 --> 0:42:45.319 get a better way of living with their finances. And 0:42:45.360 --> 0:42:47.480 I think that's so cool. So magic answer to me. 0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:49.840 I know it's not the actual magic answer, and we 0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:52.480 can't just like any boppityboo and debt is gone. That 0:42:52.480 --> 0:42:55.319 would be great, but I loved your answer. I thought 0:42:55.320 --> 0:42:58.080 it was awesome, So thank you. I do love to 0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:01.040 end the podcast with a piece of advice or a 0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:03.759 piece of motivation or inspiration or just something maybe we 0:43:03.800 --> 0:43:06.160 didn't talk about where you it feels really heavy for 0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:08.160 you that you were like, I need to share this information. 0:43:08.360 --> 0:43:10.719 So it's where I just hand the platform over to 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:13.239 you and you're gonna take us on whatever journey you 0:43:13.239 --> 0:43:14.160 want to end this thing. 0:43:15.360 --> 0:43:19.640 Wow, we have talked about so much when it comes 0:43:19.680 --> 0:43:23.360 to money. I also give you just one extra little 0:43:23.719 --> 0:43:26.400 something to do a little journal prompt for the journal 0:43:26.440 --> 0:43:29.640 listeners out there. This is something I love to do. 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:33.000 I end every night with this. I write myself what 0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:35.719 I call a Hey shawna letter, so whatever your name is, 0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:41.120 a Morgan, whatever, and I literally just get out everything 0:43:41.320 --> 0:43:43.759 around money that has been stored up during the day. 0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:47.040 So sometimes it's good things, sometimes it's bad things. Sometimes 0:43:47.120 --> 0:43:51.320 it's me cursing at the it. Sometimes it's me can't 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:54.200 decide what I'm doing about a certain option, but I 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:56.160 just get it out of my head and get it 0:43:56.200 --> 0:44:00.480 down on paper. And I would say, find something we 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:02.920 talked about lots of different tools, but find something that 0:44:03.000 --> 0:44:07.359 works for you, that feels like you can have some 0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:09.759 sort of ease around money, because that's what I want 0:44:09.800 --> 0:44:12.120 you to feel, not that it's always going to be easy, 0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:14.680 but that you can sit in the messy and you 0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:16.520 still have this sense of ease. 0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:20.560 Oh that's really good. And you loved us with something 0:44:20.600 --> 0:44:23.400 to do. I love an activity. My journal has all 0:44:23.520 --> 0:44:25.760 kinds of different scribbles in it. Now it'll have another 0:44:25.800 --> 0:44:29.680 scribble in it of different things. So Shanna, thank you 0:44:29.760 --> 0:44:32.720 so much for your expertise and being vulnerable and sharing 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:34.680 parts of your story. Too, and it was just really 0:44:34.719 --> 0:44:35.600 awesome to have you on. 0:44:36.080 --> 0:44:36.880 Thanks so much. 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:39.880 If you resonated with Shawna's story, you can connect with 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:42.520 her more on social media at Shauna Game or check 0:44:42.520 --> 0:44:45.239 out her book, Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. More to 0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:47.279 come in the next few weeks on all things love 0:44:47.320 --> 0:44:50.240 and relationships. If there's anything you want me to address 0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:53.200 under that umbrella, then dm me on Instagram at take 0:44:53.239 --> 0:44:55.360 this personally. If this is where I leave you, I 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:58.000 hope you have a great week, Stay safe. Thanks for 0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:00.600 being here with me, and I love you. Please tell 0:45:00.640 --> 0:45:02.439 more people that you love them. That's what this month 0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:06.120 is actually all about, reminding people that we care, we're there, 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:07.920 and hey, I love you.