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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for

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Speaker 1: deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host,

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt Podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Mark Kenyon. This is episode number two thirteen,

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Speaker 1: and today in the show, we're joined by one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite writers in the outdoor world, Bill Heavy, and

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Speaker 1: we're discussing lessons learned from hunting failures, native hunter gatherer cultures,

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Speaker 1: outdoor media, and much much more. Hey guys, and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Wired to Hunt podcast. And today in the show,

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Speaker 1: we are joined by Bill Heavy. Now. Bill is a

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Speaker 1: writer for Field and Stream. You've probably seen his back

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Speaker 1: page column. It's called a Sportsman's Life, which if you've

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Speaker 1: ever read that magazine, I gotta believe you to remember

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Speaker 1: that column because at least for me, it's absolute gold.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it's usually one of the very first things

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Speaker 1: I read in the magazine. Like I said, it's on

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Speaker 1: the very last page. It's usually accompanied by kind of

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Speaker 1: a wild character illustration of Bill Um, and it's always

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Speaker 1: funny and um insightful lots of times too. So. Not

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Speaker 1: only though, does Bill right for Field and Stream, he

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Speaker 1: has also authored four books, including If You didn't bring jerky?

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Speaker 1: What did I just eat? It's only slow food until

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Speaker 1: you try to eat it. You're not lost if you

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Speaker 1: can still see the truck, and most recently, should the

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Speaker 1: tent be burning like that? Now? I gotta say Bill

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Speaker 1: is one of my absolute favorite hunting and fishing writers,

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Speaker 1: and and really maybe one of my very favorite writers

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Speaker 1: no matter what genre. He's just one hell of a

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Speaker 1: good storyteller, and a lot of other folks seem to

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Speaker 1: think so too. For instance, Ted Nugent said quote, Billy

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Speaker 1: Heavy is my favorite writer. When I die, I wanted

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Speaker 1: him to gut me, stuff me, and deliver my eulogy

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Speaker 1: for one good last laugh end quote. And Steve Roella,

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Speaker 1: when describing one of Bill's books, said quote, whether he's

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Speaker 1: hanging out with trendy forgers in San Francisco or butchering

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Speaker 1: cariboo with indigenous hunter gatherers in Alaska, he related his

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Speaker 1: experience with respect, curiosity, and well honed humor. Not only

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Speaker 1: is this book perfect for anyone who loves food or

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Speaker 1: the outer doors, it's also perfect for anyone who loves

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Speaker 1: a good story, well told end quote. So there's lots

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Speaker 1: of high praise for our guests. Today, and I'm excited

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Speaker 1: for you to get to hear from him. In this conversation.

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Speaker 1: I chat with Bill about all sorts of stuff, um,

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Speaker 1: including his background as a hunter and angler. We talked

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Speaker 1: through how he became a writer for Feeling Stream. We

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Speaker 1: get into some of his thoughts about outdoor television. We

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Speaker 1: hear about what he's learned from hunting with native hunter cultures.

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Speaker 1: We talked about how he learned from his failures, are

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Speaker 1: how he tries to learn from his failures and the outdoors,

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Speaker 1: how he's tried to get his daughter into the outdoors,

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Speaker 1: and a whole lot more. It's it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: wide rating conversation. It was a lot of fun. I

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Speaker 1: think you're really gonna enjoy it. But before all of that,

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Speaker 1: I do have my good buddy Dan Johnson with us

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Speaker 1: today for our weekly pregame show. We've got a few

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Speaker 1: things to catch up on in regards to our own

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Speaker 1: personal and hunting related adventures. So that said, if you're

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Speaker 1: new to the show, though, and if you have no

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Speaker 1: interest in hearing us blab on about our personal lives

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Speaker 1: or our recent turkey hunts, feel free to fast forward

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Speaker 1: right to the beginning of Bill's interview, which begins around

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Speaker 1: twenty six minutes and thirty seconds or so. And for

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Speaker 1: the rest of you, here we go. I do have

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Speaker 1: Mr Nine Fingers Dan Johnson back with us, and we

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Speaker 1: got to do our our intro storytime bs pregame show

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Speaker 1: because we haven't done that in like two weeks, and

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Speaker 1: I need to catch up with you, buddy. What uh

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Speaker 1: what's new? Two things real quick. One, our schedules are

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Speaker 1: becoming more complex and I feel like I my my

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Speaker 1: co host responsibilities. I've slacked off in them, and I

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Speaker 1: apologize for that. Well that's okay, man. You you're a

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Speaker 1: you're a business owner of your own You're running like

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Speaker 1: nineteen different podcasts now. I can't even keep track of

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Speaker 1: all the stuff you've got going over there. So between

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Speaker 1: that and my new baby life and new projects, it's

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Speaker 1: just kind of a new world, a new world. But well,

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Speaker 1: we're going to connect when we can connect. And uh,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad I got right now. I was. I was

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Speaker 1: worried the last like two or three times you've had

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Speaker 1: a sick baby. Today were healthy, man, Yeah, they're all

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Speaker 1: healthy now. It was crazy. For a while, it was

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Speaker 1: like passing around like a hot potato. Man, they were

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Speaker 1: just one got sick, then one got better, then the

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Speaker 1: next one got sick, and so forth and so on

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Speaker 1: and and then uh, just now we're all good. Knock

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Speaker 1: on wood. I mean, I gotta tell you. You know,

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Speaker 1: in the past, when you've told stories about your sick

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Speaker 1: kids and everything, usually it's just about, you know, we

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Speaker 1: kind of joke about how inconvenient it is, or what

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Speaker 1: the pain the bone it is and everything. But now

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Speaker 1: I can relate to you on a different level. Um,

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Speaker 1: because Everett got sick last week or it was a

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Speaker 1: week and a half ago something. I'd been sick and

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Speaker 1: then he came down with a cold, and um, just

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Speaker 1: like hearing him hacking away all night and struggling to breathe,

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Speaker 1: being all congested, it was just so it was it

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Speaker 1: was a really helpless, sad, horrible feelings like a father

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Speaker 1: seeing my son like that and like not knowing what

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Speaker 1: to do, not knowing how to help him. Um, that

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Speaker 1: was the first time I've had that, that feeling that

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Speaker 1: I'm sure You're going to have a whole lot more

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Speaker 1: in the coming years. And it's it's like, man, you know,

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Speaker 1: what's what's worse than almost worse than that. So now

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Speaker 1: my daughter is starting to become social where you know,

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Speaker 1: she's a five year old. You know, five year old

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Speaker 1: girls start I don't know, acting like sixteen year old girls,

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Speaker 1: and you know. And we were at dance one time

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Speaker 1: and this one girl was talking about how she was

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Speaker 1: gonna be having a party and and she said to

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Speaker 1: my daughter, well, you can't come to my party. And

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Speaker 1: my daughter just got like this look on her face,

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Speaker 1: like oh my god, you know, like this is the

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Speaker 1: end of the world for me. And I got piste off,

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Speaker 1: like a dad shouldn't do that. But it's like that's

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Speaker 1: how much you care about your kid and that you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily that you want them to be accepted socially,

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Speaker 1: but it's just like, I don't know, there's something about

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Speaker 1: that comment that made me mad, and I almost like

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Speaker 1: acted like a kid, and I was like, well, you

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Speaker 1: can't come to our party, and then like grabbed her

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Speaker 1: and walked out. Yeah. I get that. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: don't want your you don't want your baby to hurt.

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Speaker 1: You don't want them to go through pain, whether it's

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Speaker 1: physical or social, or I can I can just already

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Speaker 1: tell I'm going to be that dad, who is just

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Speaker 1: I don't know, emotional worried. I just I can already

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Speaker 1: see it's it's amazing how this flip switches and and

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Speaker 1: everything that used to matter if so much, all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden goes down a few notches and you just

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Speaker 1: you just who. I don't know if you told me

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Speaker 1: this or someone told me this, but they said like

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Speaker 1: having a child is like having your heart now outside

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Speaker 1: of your body and is weird or is like woo woo?

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Speaker 1: Is that sounds like I'm already seeing that, Like I

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Speaker 1: don't even understand how I can love this kid so

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Speaker 1: much already. I was gone this weekend for four days, um,

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Speaker 1: on a hunting trip, and just being gone four days,

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Speaker 1: like I can now I finally relate to you, Dan,

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Speaker 1: like when you talked about being gone in your trips

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Speaker 1: and want to get back. Like when I got home

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Speaker 1: and walked in the door and Kylie walked out holding him,

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Speaker 1: I literally like teared up. I was like so happy

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Speaker 1: to see him. It was such a weird, a weird,

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Speaker 1: crazy thing. Um. And I think I talked to you

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Speaker 1: about this last uh rut. I mean this, this last

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Speaker 1: November was your last November, as you know, not having

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Speaker 1: any kids, right, so this is gonna be your first

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Speaker 1: hunting season where you're gonna be gone a lot. And

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Speaker 1: for me, I pulled out of the driveway and I

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Speaker 1: had a sense of regret come over me because I

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Speaker 1: knew that I was leaving my wife with three kids

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Speaker 1: and I was being selfish and I was just this feeling.

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Speaker 1: But like it's I'm torn because I the same feeling

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Speaker 1: that is telling me to stay home is the same

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Speaker 1: passion that is telling me to go out and be

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Speaker 1: a hunter. You know what I mean? Both both crazy.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy. I just see that more and more it's

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Speaker 1: going to be me. I'm gonna be entering these same

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Speaker 1: dilemmas you've had and try and understand how to balance

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Speaker 1: it and how to Um yeah, I'm just I know

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Speaker 1: these years, these like early years, are gonna be tough

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Speaker 1: in that way. But I'm looking forward to already, like

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Speaker 1: fast forward a handful of years further on when he

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Speaker 1: can start joining me for the stuff. Then hopefully things

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Speaker 1: will will be really awesome then. So absolutely, absolutely have

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Speaker 1: you been up to anything interesting lately? Just continuing on

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Speaker 1: a serious note, just for one second, I work downtown, Okay,

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Speaker 1: Um I work where I park in a parking ramp,

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Speaker 1: and I take a skywalk and all these things. Now,

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Speaker 1: I was raised my mom, God bless her heart. She said,

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Speaker 1: don't judge people based off their looks, don't judge people

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Speaker 1: based off you know, until you get to know them.

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Speaker 1: All these things. You know, like everybody should be treated

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Speaker 1: created equally. But dude, I don't know what it is

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Speaker 1: about pigeons that I hate so much just by looking

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Speaker 1: at them. I hate pigeons, Like, I don't like pigeons

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Speaker 1: at all. I mean, if they were went, if they

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Speaker 1: went extinct, I would be like, you know what, good.

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Speaker 1: I was really confused at first, because you're talking about

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Speaker 1: your mom telling you not to judge people. So I'm like,

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Speaker 1: it's pigeons. It's pigeons. Like how you is that some

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Speaker 1: group of people that I don't know that the label of.

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Speaker 1: But you're talking about pigeons. You're talking about pigeons as

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Speaker 1: the animal. Yeah, I know, like pigeons the animal. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're just gross. They're ugly, They lay a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of eggs and then they don't sit on them. Uh,

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Speaker 1: they poop all over the place. They're just disgusting and

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Speaker 1: you know, you know, obviously you shouldn't just look at

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Speaker 1: a pigeon, because a pigeon by itself is a bird.

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Speaker 1: It has like sometimes it can be pretty looking, but

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Speaker 1: then you really look at it and then you're like, oh, man,

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Speaker 1: what a pilot crap that bird is? Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: what's I guess I never had to think deeply on

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Speaker 1: pigeons because I just I'm almost never in a city

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Speaker 1: where you see a bunch of them. Yeah, So like

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Speaker 1: out here in the old homestead here in southern Michigan,

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Speaker 1: it's like I got some robbins, I've got some What

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Speaker 1: what I get are the barn swallows and those summers.

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Speaker 1: They are bad news. They're nesting in every nook and

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Speaker 1: craney and my barn, pooping all over my deck there.

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Speaker 1: I don't particularly care for them, I'll give you that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they're like, uh, a swallow or a sparrow for me,

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Speaker 1: something you kind of just lived to accept. You deal

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Speaker 1: with them. But like a pigeon, man, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Like I think I get it from my grandpa because

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Speaker 1: my grandpa didn't like pigeons either. Really, that's like a

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Speaker 1: thing you know about your grandpa? Yeah, he didn't. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he didn't like pigeons. He told me that once. He's like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I really hate pigeons. You know, There's

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Speaker 1: there's certain things I remember about my grandpa, like conversations

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Speaker 1: we had, and like really powerful impactful conversation ations we have, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like about the meaning of life and ethics of hunting

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Speaker 1: and stuff. I love that one of the things you

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Speaker 1: remember about your grandpa's not looking pigeons. Oh yeah, my

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Speaker 1: grandpa had a really like. One thing I love about

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Speaker 1: my grandparents and that I that I will take to

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Speaker 1: the grave with me is work ethic. Right, in order

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Speaker 1: for them to survive and and feed their family, they

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Speaker 1: had to work. They were they were both farmers, right,

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Speaker 1: So both sets of my grandparents were farmers, so they

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Speaker 1: had to work every day to make ends meet. And

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Speaker 1: the fact that my one grandpa just hated pigeons. So like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know why we're talking about this, honestly,

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Speaker 1: it was just something today. I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: ever have those things that happened that you are you

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Speaker 1: get worked up about something that's so insignificant, but it

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Speaker 1: just really rubs you the wrong way. And like today

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Speaker 1: I just saw that these group of pigeons sitting there

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Speaker 1: looking all cocky, and they're like, hey, don't look at us,

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Speaker 1: because we're gonna crap on your car and we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have a whole bunch of babies, and they're gonna crap

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Speaker 1: on your car. Uh, so don't look at us. And

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Speaker 1: I looked at them and probably wouldn't craped in my car,

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Speaker 1: but you know, and it's gotta be like this is

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Speaker 1: kind of like salt on the wound, right, because maybe

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Speaker 1: you're having a long day at work or you wanted

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Speaker 1: to right, so it's like I gotta go to the

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Speaker 1: cubicle and then I'm getting crapped on. I can. I

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Speaker 1: can see how that would be. It was more it

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Speaker 1: was more of right off the bat right sons coming up.

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Speaker 1: Earlier today, I pulled into my parking spot. There was

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Speaker 1: pigeons waiting there for me, and they were looking at

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Speaker 1: me like so my day instantly started off bad. It's

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Speaker 1: not good. That's not good at all. Do you do

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Speaker 1: you have any any happy stories, Danner? Or should I

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Speaker 1: tell my happy story? Yeah? I want you to tell

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Speaker 1: your happy story, because the next story I was going

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Speaker 1: to tell is about like how I respect possums. So

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Speaker 1: you can go You can go ahead, you can better

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Speaker 1: tell your story. Okay, we we We officially now have

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Speaker 1: to have a podcast episode that's nothing but you and

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Speaker 1: me talking about which animals we respect, which we don't

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Speaker 1: care for, which we really dislike. Let me tell you

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Speaker 1: about cockroaches. Don't even get me started, dude. Speaking of

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Speaker 1: possums though, really quick. I let the dogs out of

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Speaker 1: the house the other night and they just go barreling

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Speaker 1: out of the door into the field and there's like

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Speaker 1: a cut corn field next to my house. I just

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Speaker 1: went tearing out there, and so I go running after them,

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Speaker 1: and there was a big old possum and both my

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Speaker 1: dogs were like all puffed up, strutting around it, and

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Speaker 1: the possums hissing at him, and I thought I was

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Speaker 1: about to have to break up a dog and possum fight.

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Speaker 1: I understand that one of my dogs is smaller than

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Speaker 1: the possum um, but we're able to end it amicably

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Speaker 1: with some conversation and pull them out of there before

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Speaker 1: things getting western. But possums, yeah, So so hunting though, hunting,

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Speaker 1: Turkey hunting, turkey hunting, you haven't done any more Turkey

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Speaker 1: hunting right since our Turkey any episode one and done.

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Speaker 1: But it sounds like you have Yeah I did. I

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Speaker 1: uh you know, since we last chatted, I had that

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Speaker 1: weekend where it took my nephew out and try to

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Speaker 1: get him a bird. Things didn't go well. There was

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Speaker 1: there was very few birds on one bird gabbling um

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Speaker 1: and he went the other way. We just said one

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Speaker 1: evening one morning because that was a bummer. Um. And

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Speaker 1: then I went out a few more days just scouting

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Speaker 1: and like just trying to film some birds and record

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Speaker 1: some birds. UM. That was nice. But then this weekend

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Speaker 1: I went on like my real hunt. I was saving

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Speaker 1: my tag for this weekend. UM. So I went and

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Speaker 1: did another hunt with the crew from Meat Eater. So

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Speaker 1: we met up on this new property that I've got

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Speaker 1: permission to hunt in southwest Michigan that I've told you about.

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Speaker 1: UM and me and Steve and Janice and one of

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Speaker 1: the cameraman Dirt myth and um. Another one is to

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Speaker 1: use friends Andy, who's an unbelievable cook. We all got

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Speaker 1: together out there and spent I guess it was three

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Speaker 1: and a half days hunting and uh Man had a

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Speaker 1: really really good time. It was Yeah, it was one

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Speaker 1: of those things where you see how hot and cold

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Speaker 1: turkey hunting can be. Oh yeah, man, I I've had

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Speaker 1: seasons where they go bananas in the tree and then

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Speaker 1: they fly down and then they shut off. Or I

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Speaker 1: have one day where they're they're gobbling until noon and

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Speaker 1: then they shut out, you know, then they do what

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Speaker 1: they typically do and then they shut off, and then

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Speaker 1: the next day one gobble in the tree and then

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Speaker 1: no gobbles. So I've definitely experienced that. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just like it with deer hunting. Like you and

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Speaker 1: we have talked so often about how we wish we

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Speaker 1: could just get into their heads and know what they're

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Speaker 1: thinking or know why they do what they do. Same

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Speaker 1: thing with turkeys, Like if I could ever understand what

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Speaker 1: that trigger was that causes those different kinds of days,

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Speaker 1: it would be so interesting because that that first day

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Speaker 1: we went out and it was just bad. There was

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Speaker 1: We did see some birds, but there was hardly any

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Speaker 1: gobbling at all. The turkeys would not respond to calls

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Speaker 1: at all. Um Me and Steve went o the first

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Speaker 1: day together and it was just we got set up sauce,

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Speaker 1: birds came out, then some hands, some gobblers, came out

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Speaker 1: then some hands and some jakes, and they just milled

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Speaker 1: around in the middle of this field and nothing we

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Speaker 1: did could get them to come to us. So then

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Speaker 1: we're like, okay, there was like an island of trees

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Speaker 1: in the middle of this field, and we thought if

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Speaker 1: we dropped off the back side of the field, we

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Speaker 1: could use a hill to sneak around them and reposition

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Speaker 1: and get closer, like maybe get to within like fifty

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Speaker 1: sixty yards and try calling then and using this island

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Speaker 1: of trees in the middle of it's cover. So we

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Speaker 1: did that, and by the time we got over there

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Speaker 1: and got set up and started calling, they are weren't

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Speaker 1: in sight anymore. And then we kind of kept maneuvering

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Speaker 1: trying to look around, and then we finally found that

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Speaker 1: the birds now where where we had been sitting earlier,

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Speaker 1: right in front of that right and then uh, we

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Speaker 1: kept trying to get after them and nothing would work.

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Speaker 1: So later in the evening we were in a new area,

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Speaker 1: same kind of deal. We saw some birds out in

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Speaker 1: the distance. We tried to maneuver around them. By the

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Speaker 1: time we got close they had moved. They wouldn't work

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Speaker 1: in so it was just kind of a frustrating day.

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Speaker 1: But the next day was like Turkey Heaven. It was

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Speaker 1: just me and I went out with a cameraman that

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Speaker 1: day and um, right away you heard birds on the roost.

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Speaker 1: I went to that same field, but this time I

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Speaker 1: decided to UM, we got in there earlier, so I

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Speaker 1: was able to set up closer to where they were roosted,

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Speaker 1: right off of that island of trees, got a decoy

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Speaker 1: out there. Me and Dirt got set up behind this

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Speaker 1: tree and did a little bit of yelping, and these

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Speaker 1: two gobblers came off the roost really early. It seemed

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Speaker 1: especially earlier. They came out, and I thought that they

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Speaker 1: would still be up in the tree. I was just

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Speaker 1: doing a couple of tree yelps, and then I happened

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Speaker 1: to just be kind of glassing around, just taking in

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Speaker 1: the scenery, and then all of a sudden, there's these

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Speaker 1: two birds right in the edge of the field coming

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Speaker 1: my way. I couldn't believe it. Um, So they start

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Speaker 1: coming in there, gobbling, and everything I'm doing, they come,

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Speaker 1: and they're coming, They're coming. They got to maybe sixty

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Speaker 1: five yards and I'm lined up on them, but I'm

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Speaker 1: just like, I'm not going to take that long with

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Speaker 1: a shot um even though I was using these Uh.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you've seen those new Winchester xrs

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Speaker 1: or the longer range um shells that they came out

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Speaker 1: with a year or two ago. And I wanted to

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Speaker 1: give him for a couple of years and never tried

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Speaker 1: huntil now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: supposedly they can shoot out there just sixty or more,

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Speaker 1: but I just I just didn't want to risk it.

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Speaker 1: So they got to like that distance and then stood

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Speaker 1: looking around, and I don't know if they could see

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Speaker 1: the decoys and they just didn't like them, or maybe

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Speaker 1: they couldn't see the decoys because they were on a hill.

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Speaker 1: The turkeys were in a low spot, the decoys were

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Speaker 1: up on a hill, so I'm not sure if they

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Speaker 1: ever got to the point they could see him. But

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Speaker 1: but eventually they just turned and went the other way.

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Speaker 1: And at this point, I'm like, okay, that was it.

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Speaker 1: Like these are the same birds from yesterday. They were

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Speaker 1: not receptive at all yesterday, so I thought this is

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Speaker 1: probably one chance and now that there's no way they're

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Speaker 1: gonna come in again to another stupid hunter calling at them,

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Speaker 1: so I was kind of bummed and just kind of

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Speaker 1: watched them walk away. And then these hens come out

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Speaker 1: and one of the hens starts yelping, and she starts

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Speaker 1: making some noise, and so I think, oh, this could

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Speaker 1: be my chance. If I co piss this hen off,

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Speaker 1: if I can get her fired up, maybe she'll come

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Speaker 1: my way. And if she comes my way, that might

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Speaker 1: be the one thing that could pull these thoms in.

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Speaker 1: So every time she yelped, I was yelping right back.

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Speaker 1: She'd yelp, I'd yelp, she'd yelp, I'd cut her off.

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Speaker 1: I'd mimic everything she did. I was getting really aggressive,

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Speaker 1: and it just kept her talking. So she was going

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Speaker 1: and it was it went on for like minutes. I

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Speaker 1: don't know how long, but we were just yelping, yelping, yelp,

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Speaker 1: and she was irritated, and lo and behold, she started

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Speaker 1: coming our way with some other hens, and just like

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Speaker 1: I was hoping, here come the toms, they start following

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Speaker 1: those hens in. And then eventually I think that those

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Speaker 1: birds got high enough on the rise they saw the decoys,

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Speaker 1: and then that just kind of flipped the switch. Hammered

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Speaker 1: like every five seconds, just like a dream turkey scenario

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Speaker 1: came right in and U at like forty yards before, um,

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Speaker 1: before they went behind another little rise. I had that

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Speaker 1: opening and took the shot and enrolled the nice big gobbler.

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Speaker 1: So I got my Michigan turkey. That's awesome. It was

402
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Speaker 1: a watch man. It was fun. It was one of

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Speaker 1: those mornings, like it was just the perfect morning. Cool, clear.

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Speaker 1: What we're gonna saying, high pressure probably probably, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I actually think that's exactly what it was. When you

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Speaker 1: when you kill a turkey. How is that in comparison

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Speaker 1: to how you you know, how you feel when you

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Speaker 1: kill a like a buck. Is there any comparison. It's

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Speaker 1: a good it's a good question. Um, it's definitely different.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's there's still that feeling of like appreciation

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Speaker 1: for the animal, for the experience, Like it's definitely like

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Speaker 1: an exciting moment um because the hunt went the way

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Speaker 1: you wanted to. You you filled your tag, you get

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Speaker 1: to bring some meat home. Um. But I'd be lying

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Speaker 1: if I didn't say there was like a difference in

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Speaker 1: significance in some way. And I don't mean to any

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Speaker 1: way like say that animals life was worth less than

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Speaker 1: like a deer or something. But but it does feel different.

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Speaker 1: I think maybe it's just because of the amount of

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Speaker 1: time and energy probably that goes into it. You know,

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Speaker 1: with turkey hunting, you can kind of show up and

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Speaker 1: if you kind of have a basic idea of what

423
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Speaker 1: you're doing and do some calling. If you if you're

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Speaker 1: in the right places, you know, you can get a

425
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 1: bird in a day or two, like this scenario second

426
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: day hunting. Um. And that's great. But as you and

427
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 1: me know, when it comes to deer hunting or elk

428
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: hunting or something, just the energy and time and effort

429
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 1: and planning and preparation. Uh. And then the inherent difficulty

430
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: in seeing just seeing, let alone encountering and then getting

431
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: a shot at a mature buck or something like that. Um,

432
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: that's just a night and day difference. So I do

433
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 1: feel different after that. UM. And then maybe there's just something.

434
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, a big mammal just just

435
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 1: it's it's different walking up on a big mammal like

436
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 1: a deer or an elk that you just killed. UM.

437
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 1: I still like when I walked upon a deer and elk,

438
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: I still get that like kind of pit in my

439
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: gut at first kind of like, oh man, like there's

440
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 1: a little bit of I don't know if it's remorse

441
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 1: or if it's whatever it is, there's that emotional Yeah,

442
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 1: it's this weird swamp of all these different emotions. Yeah.

443
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: I love, appreciation, sadness, respect, just a lot of stuff. Um,

444
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 1: and that I still have that to some degree with

445
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: the turkey, but it's like turned up many more notches

446
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: with a deer or something like that. Um, it's hard

447
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 1: to explain that. I guess exactly how that happens or why,

448
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,719
Speaker 1: but yeah, man, it was. It's always a great It's

449
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 1: always a great. Um. So it's a great day when

450
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: things work out like that. You know. So your turkey

451
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 1: season is over now, right yeah? Um sort of. Uh.

452
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: As far as me trying to kill a bird, yeah,

453
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: I might try to go to Ohio for like a day,

454
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: but just the way my schedule is looking, it's it's

455
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: kind of crazy, so I probably won't get to go

456
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: hunt myself. But um, we are doing a deal here.

457
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: We're like all, you know, all my buddies that come

458
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: out to Iowa for the shed hunting camp. Um, we're

459
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: gonna get together at Dustin's house and um try to

460
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 1: do some turkey hunting here together. So I'm just gonna

461
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: tag along for that and call for people and just

462
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: be around for the Shenanigans. So hopefully, hopefully Quirky and

463
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: Dusty and further and all those guys can get a bird,

464
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,120
Speaker 1: and um, I'll get to share in that. From from

465
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: a observation standpoint, we should try to do a fun

466
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: out of state turkey hunting trip next year. That would

467
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: be That would be awesome. I've been thinking, you know,

468
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: when we were talking about how we need to do

469
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 1: a Western shed hunt, a Western turkey hunt would be

470
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 1: really cool too, um, right, because i've heard a different

471
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: species other than Eastern Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've heard Nebraska

472
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: would be a great play to do that as well,

473
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 1: because they've got three of the different subspecies all in

474
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 1: the same state. Really yeah, the more you know, Yeah,

475
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: So turkey season is coming up or it's wrapping up

476
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: here soon, and then I don't know about you, but

477
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: at that point then it's just full blown summer prep.

478
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: We're almost that summer prep right now for white tails. Dude.

479
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: I got my trail cameras set out, um, and all

480
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 1: this stuff kind of got sparked because I just got

481
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: my mount back from the taxidermist, and it's hanging in

482
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: my man cave and I get to look at it

483
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 1: now and it just makes me think of all the

484
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: things I gotta do to get ready for the season

485
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: and get trail cameras out in mineral stations out is

486
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: priority numero uno. I love it. I love this time

487
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 1: of year like this is for me, like when the

488
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: white tail stoke factor like really gets gets cranked and uh, dude,

489
00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: summer velvet coming up hot, I cannot wait, buddy, Well,

490
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: anything else we need to cover before we shut down

491
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: the intro um. We're gonna have to do one of

492
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: those full Mark and Dan bs about our favorite animals soon.

493
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: But until that, any final thoughts, no, sir, I think

494
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: we're good to go here. Man, All right, well then

495
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: would that be in the case. Let's take a quick

496
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: break to thank our partners at White Tailed Properties and

497
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 1: then we'll get to our interview with Bill kav This

498
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: week with White Tailed Properties, we are joined by Neil Hugger,

499
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: a land specialist out of Wisconsin, and Neil is going

500
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: to be telling us about what habitat improvements can be

501
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 1: made in northern properties like that in Minnesota and Wisconsin,

502
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: well in northern Wisconsin in particular where I live. What's

503
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: you deal with is monoculture of force for the most part,

504
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: especially in the upper third of the state, and as such,

505
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: the most important thing you do revolves around food. The

506
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: deer are gonna go where the food is, and without

507
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: monoculture you can have a biological desert in the in

508
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: the timber. So if you can create food plot, that's fantastic,

509
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: But if you really want to make it special, you

510
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: want to recreate what I calls a trifecta. Try to

511
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: create a food plot near a structure such as a

512
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: creek or perhaps a ridge point that the deer must

513
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 1: navigate around. And now you've created a pinch point. And uh,

514
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: if you want to really spice it up, you can

515
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,639
Speaker 1: maybe put in a a watering hole or um you

516
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 1: can maybe do a blocking hinge cut and then you've

517
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: created maybe a trifecta or a quad sector. But the

518
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: goal here is to give the deer a reason to

519
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: be on the spot and make sure your tree stand

520
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: is in that spot. If you'd like to learn more

521
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: and to see the properties that Neil currently has listed

522
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 1: for sale, visit White Tail properties dot com backslash Hogger.

523
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: That's h A U G E R. All right here

524
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: with me now is Bill Hev. Welcome to the show. Bill,

525
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: Thanks good to be here, man, and I got us

526
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: say I want to I want to start off here

527
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 1: by shamelessly buttering you up and saying that you are

528
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: one of my absolute favorite writers. Um. Your your ability

529
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: to weave humor and a story with real motion and themes,

530
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: it is just it is impressive and I am never

531
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: left wanting after reading one of your stories or books.

532
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: So so thanks for being here and doing this, Bill,

533
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: because I've been looking forward to for quite a long time.

534
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: That's it. You're not gonna butter me up any further. No,

535
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: that was it. I'm gonna be quick and never dive

536
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: into things. I'm just thank you very much for the

537
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: very kind words. I appreciate them. Yeah. Yeah, and um,

538
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: you know we're just talking a little a little while

539
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: ago before we started to record how no one really,

540
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: you know, wants to hear about our backgrounds are careers

541
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: and everything. They just want to get into the good stuff.

542
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: But I want to still talk a little bit about Bill,

543
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: how you got to this point. But before we start

544
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 1: diving into some of your experiences out in the woods

545
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: and the waters, and would that be the case something

546
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: I don't know a whole lot about, even though I've

547
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: read most of your I've read most of your books

548
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: and articles. It's kind of your background is a hundred angler.

549
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: You know. How did you get into these things? How

550
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: did this all start for you? Um? I always tell

551
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: people that I got into this sort of bass acword

552
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 1: because I was I was sent to summer camp in

553
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: uh North Carolina and New Hampshire as a kid for

554
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: about three years, and I became obsessed with watching that

555
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: little red and white bobber about twelve feet from shore,

556
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: just convinced that there was a monster swimming around down

557
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: there with my name stenciled on its side. Um. And

558
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: that turned out not to be the case, but that

559
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: didn't really deter me. I kept trying, and then know

560
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: as I stopped going to summer camp, I more or

561
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: less forgot about it. And then some friends gave me

562
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: an ultra light four ft six in ugly stick and

563
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: a spinning reel for my twenty one birthday, and I

564
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: rediscovered it and turned into kind of a maniac small

565
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: mouth fisherman on the Potomac, And so what happened was

566
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: I was doing at the time. I was a generalist

567
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: and travel writer, and I was doing a piece for

568
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 1: the Washington Post. They wanted something about close to home vacations,

569
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: and I suggested, well, what about canoeing and fishing the

570
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: rivers around Washington, the Potomac, the James and the Rappahannock

571
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: for a small mouth And I said okay. So I

572
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: did a story for them, um. And then after it

573
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: was published in the manner of freelancers everywhere who were

574
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: kind that we seeking bigger markets, I thought, what, what

575
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: the heck, I'll send this up to Field and Stream UM,

576
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: and I was very surprised when they said, yeah, we

577
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 1: think we could use use this if you tweaked it

578
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 1: a little bit. And I said, sure, what do you wants?

579
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: And it kind of turned into a defense of spinning.

580
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: After about the time that everybody else was moving to

581
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 1: fly fishing, and a river runs through it had just

582
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: come out, um, and fly fishermen were everywhere, and they

583
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: seemed to think that they owned the river. You know,

584
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: that any water they can cast over was automatically there

585
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: their water. And so pretty soon I was writing about

586
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 1: fishing regularly for field and stream, which was great, and

587
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: then I thought, you know you could for completely mercenary reasons.

588
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, you could double your market if

589
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: you if you tried hunting, which absolutely horrified my mother,

590
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: you know, like one of those how could you do

591
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: that to these poor little animals? Would you like some

592
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: more veheable UM? And I took up bow hunting for

593
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: deer and was just hooked almost from the get go.

594
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: And the first time that I killed a deer, which

595
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: was a which was a little five point buck on

596
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: a friend's farm, this kind of neural circuitry went off

597
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: in me, this mix of like an explosion of pride

598
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: and humility and triumphs and sorrow and all these emotions.

599
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: And I thought, this can't just be me. You know,

600
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: we've got to be hard as at the name of

601
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: your show, UH points out, this has got to in

602
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: our wiring. You just couldn't you just couldn't create all

603
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: this about it nothing. And I started to realize, you know,

604
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: we're all descended from master hunters, or we wouldn't be here.

605
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 1: So it's like we have this neural pathway that most

606
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: people never hook up. Plug in UM and when you do,

607
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: it's pretty it's pretty amazing and pretty compelling. Yeah. So

608
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: I started writing about hunting. In that piece You're in

609
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: that hunt, you mentioned your first bow hunt. Um. I've

610
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: been rereading some of my favorite stories of yours, and

611
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: there was that story where you talked about this bow

612
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: hunting obsession how that began, and I loved how you

613
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: described your addiction. You said that hooked would be an understatement.

614
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: I was filayed battered in deep Fried. I thought that

615
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 1: was It's pretty good. I think a lot of us

616
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: can relate to that for sure. I'm right there with you. Um.

617
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: So you you had your first bow hunt, killed a deer.

618
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: How is your hunting journeys grown from there? What? What

619
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: was next? Did you kind of start trying every different

620
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: experience you get your hands on? I did, but you

621
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: know I never got nothing ever got to me like

622
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: bow hunting for dear dead. You know, I will try anything. Um.

623
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: I'm not a particularly good wing shot. UM. I'm a

624
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: lousy wild turkey hunter. And actually one of the things

625
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:40,879
Speaker 1: I discovered in um Um in Arkansas on this last

626
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: trip is I don't really like turkey hunting that much.

627
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: You know, you know you don't get up, but you

628
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: don't get up at crack of dawn. You gotta be

629
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 1: in the woods and set up in the crack at

630
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: the crack of dawn, and you hunt until you know

631
00:34:55,520 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: almost almost you know the end of light, and then

632
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: you have dinner and go back to where you're sleeping,

633
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: and you know five hours later it's time to get

634
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: up again. So it really wears you down. And actually,

635
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 1: I've never gotten me on the what I call the

636
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: baby in a car seat uh level of turkey hunting,

637
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 1: which you could say, I've never called in a turkey

638
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:26,320
Speaker 1: and myself and killed it. You know, I've shot turkeys

639
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: that other people have called in for me. But you

640
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 1: know that's anymore on can do that. I've seen that

641
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: you've turkey hunter with some pretty exceptional uh turkey hunters too,

642
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: like Jeff Buds and Ray I. Uh so you've learned

643
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: from some of the best, though, well you don't. You

644
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,959
Speaker 1: learn in a way. But you know, when you hunt

645
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: with Jeff Buds, you're just running to keep up with

646
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 1: the guys, like it's uh, it's humbling because he sees

647
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 1: he hears the turkey and he takes off at a

648
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 1: at a jog straight towards it, and then he sees

649
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: the birds somehow, you know, a distance through his binoculars

650
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: and then figures out a way to get close. So

651
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: some of the places we were hunting, we were going

652
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 1: down these you know culverts that were you know, like

653
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,959
Speaker 1: twenty ft deep out on an Indian reservation and then

654
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: belly crawling up to these birds and and trying to

655
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: shoot them. Um and he. I mean that that guy

656
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 1: was just driven. I mean he would hunt all day

657
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: and then drive four hours to another state because he

658
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: wanted to get birds. And you know, we'd beat in

659
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: South Dakota and he'd want to get to Kansas or something.

660
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: Am I right? Then, Jeff Buds holds the most Turkey

661
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: Grand slams of anyone in the world. Is that is

662
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: that accurate? Yeah? I think he's got twice as many

663
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: as his nearest rival, h more. You know, it might

664
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: even be more than that, or we're less than that,

665
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:14,439
Speaker 1: but he's got a substantial lead on anybody else being

666
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: around someone like that. I heard someone who knows him

667
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 1: or encountered him mentioned that he kind of reminded him

668
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 1: of like a Lance Armstrong type, just like so driven,

669
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: so so um, just so elite. I gotta believe that

670
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: given what you're what you do, you get to be

671
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: around a lot of hunters like that kind of at

672
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,439
Speaker 1: the very very top of their top of their game

673
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: or whatever you call it. Yeah, but I mean it's

674
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: hard to you know, it's all you know, Jeff is

675
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: a wonderful guy. Um and I really I really love him,

676
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's uh, it's it's almost like

677
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: somebody told him when he was a kid that he

678
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: wasn't good enough. He's spending his life proving them wrong,

679
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, and and and he's doing it. Um, but

680
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: I just you know, it's a it's a different mentality

681
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: to me. To me, that mentality of being first or

682
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: you know, ah, I don't know. To me, that's not

683
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: what hunting is really about. And you know, I don't

684
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 1: even want I can't watch the I can't watch hunting shows.

685
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 1: They're just so you know, we're led to think that

686
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: this is how hunting is and and it's not. You know,

687
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: when those guys go and see this huge deer coming

688
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 1: out of the woods, you know you can be pretty

689
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: sure that they aren't the ones who scouted it. Um

690
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: and in their own way there babies in a car seat, right. Um,

691
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: so I read that, Yeah, I read that you once

692
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: went on a shoot like that where you're going to

693
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: be filmed for TV, and then it was it sounded

694
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: like it wasn't a great experience. Can't tell us about

695
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: what it's like to be on the other side. This

696
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: was my first You know what in the industry is

697
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: called the writer hunt, which is when you're invited on

698
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: a trip and your expenses are going to be paid

699
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: and all you gotta do is show up, and you're

700
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: just thinking, man, I am, I am the man. You know,

701
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: I am here, I am all you all you poor

702
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 1: slobs are out there. You gotta buy your own plane

703
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: ticket and then all this is being done for me.

704
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: Uh you get a little puffed up. And then I'm

705
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 1: up there and they said, you know, we just want

706
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: to ask you one favorite. Would it be okay if

707
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: we put a cameraman out there with you and he

708
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: won't bother you. You know, he'll be in a tree stand.

709
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 1: He'll be in a ladder tree stand just a few

710
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: feet above your head, you know, usually on the same

711
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: tree or on a you know, a limb where he's

712
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: got a view of you, and I said sure, sure,

713
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: and I got out to him within an hour or two.

714
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: I was profoundly uncomfortable, and I felt like I felt

715
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: like I was doing porn. You know, this was dear,

716
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: this was hunter porn. It's like, you know, if you're

717
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: making love to your you know, to your wife or

718
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: your girlfriend in the privacy of your of your bedroom,

719
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: that's one thing. If you're making a movie of it

720
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: to sell, that's something else. And I didn't want to

721
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: be that guy, so I said, look, I'm sorry, you know,

722
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: I can't do this. It's really it's a really interesting

723
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: way of looking at it. If you could take if

724
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: you could be like the god of all hunting television,

725
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing television and enact some set of changes

726
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 1: to make it how you would find it appealing? Again,

727
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: what would you do to change hunting or fishing television

728
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: or media in that way? I don't I'm not sure

729
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 1: it could be done. You know, to me, hunting is

730
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: a kind of sacred thing, and as soon as you

731
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: put it, as soon as you're trying to make money

732
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: off it, it's it's something else. Um, you know, it's

733
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: a you've kind of corrupted it. Hm, you know that

734
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: that's my personal feeling about it. So I doubt that

735
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: I will over haveo that that anybody will ever offer

736
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 1: me now playing playing Devil's Advocate, though, why is why

737
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 1: is writing about a hunting experience and making money off

738
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: of it different than filming a hunting experience and making

739
00:41:53,640 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: money from it. Uh, well, that's a very impertinent question. Um,

740
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, because it's it's your

741
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: reflections on it in you know, and in private, and

742
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 1: then you're sharing your experience. I mean, my my take,

743
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: my take on the things I write is is sort

744
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: of that is that I'm arrogant enough to believe there's

745
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: nothing particularly special about me, and so if I'm writing

746
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: how I feel, if I'm honestly writing about my impressions

747
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: of an experience, it's kind of you weren't there, but

748
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 1: this is kind of what it would be like if

749
00:42:53,920 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: you were. And that seems quite different to me somehow,

750
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: And maybe maybe I'm just maybe in a completely self

751
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: serving way, but um, it seems almost like a a

752
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: service to people. Whereas TV shows loaded down with you know,

753
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: well it was really that nose jam or spray that

754
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: then able to me to take this buck and my

755
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, my on my osonics thing and my you

756
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: know my this company's arrows and this company's bow and Um,

757
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: they're just like you know, they're kind of selling everything

758
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: they touch. And I'm I guess I don't feel like

759
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: I'm doing that. I'm I'm selling what the I'm selling.

760
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: I'm trying to sell, you know, and convey what the

761
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 1: what the experience was like. Yeah, I understand what you're

762
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: understand what you're getting at there. And I've had those

763
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: same feelings too. I Mean, there's there's a lot of

764
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: outdoor television that that kind of makes you uncomfortable to

765
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: the stomach when when you watch it, and I know

766
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: when you describe it compared to compared to pornography, there's

767
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: there's definitely a correlation there that that it rings true. UM. Now,

768
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: speaking of your writing and how you express or share

769
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 1: your own experience, UM, did you. I mean, if if

770
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: anyone hasn't written or excuse me, read your stories or

771
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: your books, your column and field and stream anything that

772
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: they may not be familiar. But you have a very

773
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,720
Speaker 1: UM I don't know if it's satire, but it's Um,

774
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,479
Speaker 1: you do a great job of bringing humor into the piece,

775
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: and you kind of represent yourself as this kind of

776
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: bumbling every man who's making all these mistakes, and you

777
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: kind of you kind of make fun of yourself a lot.

778
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: And A. UM, did you know from the get go

779
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: that you always wanted to write in this style and

780
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: present yourself like that? Or was this like a thought

781
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: through decision as you as you started going through it.

782
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I think I was writing that

783
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: way before Shield and Stream, and I realized, you know,

784
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: when I got to Field and Stream. The first thing

785
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 1: that I noticed was everybody was an expert. You know,

786
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 1: there were everybody was writing from the view of you know, everybody.

787
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: The guy writing about you know, hunting could shoot the

788
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 1: eyes out of a running chipmunk at three hundred yards,

789
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 1: and the guy writing about fly fishing could take his

790
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: naval lint and tied up into a tarp and fly

791
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: and catch a two hundred pounds fish. And I realized,

792
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 1: you know, A, I can't compete with these guys and

793
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: be I don't really want to. UM, So I struck.

794
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: And then I realized there's nobody writing for the kind

795
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:03,720
Speaker 1: of the average guy. And the average guy I'm based

796
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: on my extners experiences failure far more often than success,

797
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: and so I think in a lot of ways, failures

798
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: are more universal experience then success. And I remember my

799
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 1: editors were kind of surprised when that resonated with a

800
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 1: lot of readers, and I said, really, I'm you know,

801
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: I'm not. They're They're kind of like, you're just you're

802
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: just a dufist man, And I was like, yeah, so

803
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: most of the rest of us, Yeah, yeah, And I really,

804
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, I just couldn't. I couldn't fake. Um, you know,

805
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: I couldn't fake pretending to be competent at something that wasn't.

806
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: So so that begs the question. Then, even though you've

807
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,720
Speaker 1: given all given that your work is going and hunting

808
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: and fishing all over the world in some cases and

809
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: then sharing those experiences, you get to hunt and fish

810
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 1: a lot more than maybe the average guy or girl does.

811
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: So even though that's the case, do you really struggle?

812
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: Do you really struggle as much in real life as

813
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: it seems on the page, or have you achieved some

814
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 1: level of competence now that you've done it for so long.

815
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I've got some level of competence, you know it?

816
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: It uh you know, I realized that one of one

817
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: of the pleasures now for me. I mean I live,

818
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: you know, less than ten miles from the White House,

819
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: and everybody goes, oh, you you know, with your your

820
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: your fame as a field and stream writer, you must

821
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,440
Speaker 1: get you know, places that hunt offers with places to

822
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: hunt all the time going Actually I don't, and I

823
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: haven't figured out how to leverage that some kind of

824
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: access maybe for the people that would be able to

825
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,560
Speaker 1: do that, but I've never been able to you know,

826
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: get turned that into more hunting access. So I I

827
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: have to go pretty far away to the hunt. I

828
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: mean there's almost no public hunting grounds around here. I mean,

829
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 1: you know, there's sixty miles away, and those ones get hammered. Um.

830
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: But I have learned one of the things I love

831
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 1: now is just going out in the woods and and

832
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: following a deer trail and looking for sign. And you know,

833
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 1: if you just do that long enough, you got you

834
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: get an eye for it. You know what a deer

835
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: trail looks like, even though you can't really explain how

836
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: you know, um that it's a deer trail and not

837
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 1: you know, some some smaller animal. Uh, But you just

838
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,240
Speaker 1: get a sense of it, and you get a sense

839
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: of you know, where deer like to bed and um,

840
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, if you find it. If you if you

841
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: find a bed and you find a hair of the

842
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 1: deer that bedded there, that's that's that's really cool. That's

843
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 1: kind of like finding a narrowhead, you know. And uh,

844
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: and I love I love that kind of stuff and

845
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: I love going out with I was perch fishing the

846
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: other day with my friends Paula Smith and Gordon Leash

847
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 1: out on the Potomas and Paula, uh heard a bird

848
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: conscious that's the first story a lot I've heard this

849
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,359
Speaker 1: this year. So she knows the bird by its call.

850
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: And then they see another bird. Know, they've had a uh,

851
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: you know, a purple breasted growth speak or something in

852
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: their backyard at their feet or and they were really

853
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: excited about that. And they were talking to another guy

854
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:59,640
Speaker 1: who has seen some particular bird at his feet or

855
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 1: and they all got real excited about that. So it's

856
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: you know, people that can take it beyond just being

857
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:14,719
Speaker 1: good good hunters and start to gain an appreciation for

858
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: the larger picture of what's out there. Ah. I have

859
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: enormous respect for those people. Yeah, that that transition from

860
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: just a hunter to also a naturalist and a woodsman,

861
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:32,480
Speaker 1: that that's the whole experience. Yeah, I mean, that's those

862
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 1: are people to me, those are people who really get it.

863
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: And I've seen Paula h you know, Paula Paula. Paula

864
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: has done all kinds of things that that I can't

865
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:53,359
Speaker 1: talk about to get to get geese and stuff. At

866
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 1: the same time we were drying, we were rowing back

867
00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: in the time before this, and she spotted a a

868
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: Canada that was tangled up in some fishing line in

869
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: a little creek that runs behind the boat house, and

870
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: she went, damn. And she got back in the boat

871
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: and rowed herself up to it. And she'd forgotten to

872
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: take a Nike. So Gordon said, don't Bill, don't run

873
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:23,439
Speaker 1: down there and take her at night. So I did.

874
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:28,280
Speaker 1: And she spent twenty minutes, you know, calming this bird down,

875
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: picking it up, talking to it and cutting the line free,

876
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: and then let it go, and then came back the

877
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,120
Speaker 1: next day and said, I, you know, I didn't see

878
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: each others. I think he's gonna make it. So, you know,

879
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: it reminds me kind of the the Indians, who, you know,

880
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: would hunt all kinds of animals, but then they would

881
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: also have pets, pet animals, often of the same species

882
00:51:55,200 --> 00:52:00,040
Speaker 1: that they they hunted. Yeah, and I love that. A

883
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: lot of you know, a lot of non hunters just

884
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 1: can't wrap their heads around that. Um, how you can

885
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 1: love the same animal that you're that you're killing. But

886
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: in fact, in fact, once you really understand it, it

887
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: doesn't seem strange at all. Yeah, I'm I'm going to

888
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: make an assumption here. But my assumption is that living

889
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,320
Speaker 1: so close to, you know, just outside of d C,

890
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: you're around a lot of people that you know, don't

891
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: have this context. They don't have this connection to the

892
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: natural world that you do as a hunter or an angler. Um. So,

893
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: when you're at a when you're at a dinner party

894
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: or grabbing a drink or whatever it might be, and

895
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: someone approaches you or or wants to hear about what

896
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: you do, when you talk about hunting and whatnot, and

897
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: you try to convey that point you just made, that

898
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: being that hunting is an act of love, not an

899
00:52:54,480 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: act of war or or anger or anything like that. Malus,

900
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,439
Speaker 1: how do you go about trying to communicate that to someone?

901
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 1: How do you get that idea across um. Well, first

902
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: of all, most people in Washington are much more concerned

903
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: about telling you what they do and curious about what

904
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: you do. You know, Washington is a town where the

905
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 1: first question people ask is, you know, what do you

906
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: do when they're assessing each other's relative, you know, importance

907
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,920
Speaker 1: in the world. But I don't get asked that question

908
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: very much. I've been confronted several times by people who

909
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 1: knew I hunted and said, you know, I just think

910
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 1: hunting is awful and ought to be outlawed. And you

911
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: guys are you know, you're just in it for the

912
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 1: thrill of the kill. And I do a kind of

913
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: jiu jitsu, you know, where you use the person's own

914
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: momentum against them. And and and I say, you know,

915
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 1: I kind of agree with you. You know, the more

916
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: I hunt, uh, the harder it is for me to

917
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,799
Speaker 1: kill stuff. And you know, there are times when I'm

918
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: not so sure it shouldn't be outlawed. Um, except for

919
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:26,359
Speaker 1: you know, um, you know that government is best, which

920
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: governs least people out to have the opportunity to make

921
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: up their own minds about it. And you know a

922
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:39,359
Speaker 1: lot of people have no clue of how deer are

923
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: just denuding the forests, especially around here. I think Rock

924
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 1: Creek Park has one of the highest deer densities in

925
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: the country because there's no predators UM, and they just

926
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:57,560
Speaker 1: eat everything that grows, and so you don't have songbirds

927
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:01,200
Speaker 1: and wild turkey and off kinds of stuff that should

928
00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 1: be there. And they're eating up the native plants. You know,

929
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: they're speeding the growth of invasives UM. You know, there's

930
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: a very high incidence of Lyme disease UM because the

931
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: places where the white mice that are one of the

932
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: carriers from which deer get the ticks UM because you

933
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: know it's the larval and um nymph stage ticks that

934
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: feed on white mice and then get picked up by

935
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: the deer. You know, there are a host of UM

936
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: still effects whenever any you know, whenever any species gets

937
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: out of balance, and deer are just way out of

938
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: balance but UM and you know, if if if it

939
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: seems like they're open uh, and it's very disarming because

940
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 1: when they UH way too often in my view, hunters

941
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: just wanna you know, when that when that conversation and

942
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 1: tell these people that they're you know, they're they're full

943
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,000
Speaker 1: of it and they don't know what they're talking about,

944
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 1: and that you know, that doesn't change anybody's mind. Um,

945
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: that just digs a hole deeper. So you know, if

946
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 1: you just listen to people, they'll find that very disarming,

947
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: especially in somebody that they expect not to be listened to. Buy. Yeah,

948
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,160
Speaker 1: it's a great point. Lots of times it becomes this.

949
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: So many times I think hunters become really defensive and

950
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: go into attack mode. And as you said, that's that

951
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: if if you're looking at simply from what's going to

952
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: be the most effective tact, that is not going to

953
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: achieve the goal, as you said, trying to change minds

954
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: or win over hearts, UM, and you just you just

955
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: confirm all the worst aspects of the under stereotypes that

956
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: people have. UM. You talked about you talked about how

957
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: some people from the outside might think we're in it

958
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: just for the thrill of the kill, UM getting the trophy,

959
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: whatever it might be. UM. I one of the things

960
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 1: I've respected about you the most is the way you're

961
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: able to convey, um, the emotion around the moments of

962
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 1: the kill and the respect for the animal that I

963
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 1: think if if someone who had questions about hunting. Read

964
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: some of your pieces. I think they would. They come

965
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:47,919
Speaker 1: away from them with a with a new found understanding

966
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,560
Speaker 1: and respect for for what we do. UM and I

967
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: want to read. I want to read a quick um

968
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: bit of something you wrote and then kind of gets

969
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 1: you to expand on it if you don't mind. Um

970
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: it's it's a favorite of mine, the piece you titled worthy.

971
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: And in this piece, I'm just gonna quote here a

972
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: couple of a couple of segments you said, shaking, I

973
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: clipped my bow, release to the string, and rise. Taking

974
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: the life of a deer is many things, but if

975
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: you think trivial is among them, it's time to put

976
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: down your bow and take up badminton. Come to your feet.

977
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: Aren't the animal whose life you seek? And later you say,

978
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: after you have shot and killed a deer and walked

979
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: up on her, you say, I lay a hand on

980
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: her flank and stroke her hair. Wisps of steam from

981
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: her body curl upward in the flashlight beam. I've read

982
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,760
Speaker 1: how native hunters believe that an animal doesn't die at once,

983
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: but slowly it's spirit finding its way out of the

984
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: body and onto the next world. I stay there another

985
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,320
Speaker 1: five minutes stroking her coat, feeling the interlocking elation and regret,

986
00:58:50,640 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: the gratitude and sorrow the only hunters know. With every

987
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: stroke I discover I'm mouthing thank you, thank you, thank you.

988
00:59:00,560 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: End quote. Can you can you expand on what those

989
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: types of moments are like for you, having having taken

990
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 1: an animal's life? Um, why is that a powerful moment

991
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 1: for you? Um? Well, you know, taking taking life, an

992
00:59:22,760 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: innocent life of of another animal is almost to me,

993
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: is by definition, you know, momentous. I mean you one

994
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: of the things you realize when you kill a deer,

995
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 1: and especially when you're cleaning a deer, is that you're

996
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: not that different, and you're gonna die just as truly

997
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: as this animal dies, and to the earth. It's not

998
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: going to make a whole lot of difference whose body

999
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: the Earth is working on is it? You know, returns

1000
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 1: it to the earth. And also think of the you know,

1001
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 1: the Indians thought of hunting as um. The Indians used

1002
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 1: to take uh priests on hunting because they were terrified

1003
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: of displeasing the gods. And if you displease the gods,

1004
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 1: all kinds of you know, misfortune might come to your

1005
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 1: to your tribe, you know, sickness, um, not being able

1006
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: to find any more gang and that if you didn't

1007
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 1: show proper respect um that was that was really rash

1008
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: and um, you know, stupid. And so they were more

1009
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: worried about displeasing you know, the animal spirits and the

1010
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: gods that took an interest in that stuff. Then they

1011
01:00:55,480 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 1: were about, um, you know, their own their own glory.

1012
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: I remember I hunted uh Cariboo with this tribe I've

1013
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 1: never heard of in Alaska, maybe because they were interior

1014
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: tribe called the Glitchen, and the Glitchen believe and archaeologists

1015
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 1: are finding increasing evidence for this that they actually have

1016
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:28,480
Speaker 1: been following the Porcupine River herd of Caribou for at

1017
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: least five thousand years and they consider themselves people of

1018
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:36,080
Speaker 1: the Cariboo. And the Cariboo do this uh circular migration

1019
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: every year. That's you know, it's five thousand miles. It's

1020
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,919
Speaker 1: one of the longest of any mammals. And each year

1021
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 1: they go to give birth near the shore because the

1022
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: offshore winds blow the bugs away that that spread diseases.

1023
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,479
Speaker 1: And sometimes you really prey on the take a toll

1024
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 1: on the deer, and the grass is good air and

1025
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 1: there aren't many predators. And the Glitchen has some name

1026
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:10,920
Speaker 1: for this that translates roughly as you know, sacred place

1027
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: where the caribou are born. And none, no Glitchen has

1028
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: ever seen it, much less set foot in it, because

1029
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 1: it's it's off limits. It's a sacred place. And to

1030
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 1: violate this. And then even when they were starving, um,

1031
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: as far back as as anybody knows, um, they would

1032
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: never go there because if they went there to kill

1033
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: caribou to get to save themselves, they would be you know, um,

1034
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: gamming the tribe, um you know, henceforth. Um. It just

1035
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: that's an amazing concept and turns out to be this

1036
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 1: is where we're it's the anwar. Uh. It's exactly where

1037
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:12,840
Speaker 1: drilling will start soon right the coastal plain that recently yep.

1038
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 1: And you know these people are just they feel totally

1039
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:28,760
Speaker 1: you know, ignored, and um, it's quite sad. Yeah, not

1040
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 1: to mention the impacts, the ecological impacts on the animals themselves.

1041
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,520
Speaker 1: As I understand it, that's going to be very significant

1042
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,880
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I mean you have I mean, it's

1043
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 1: a it's a it's a very small area relatively. It

1044
01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't take much to completely screw it up. And you know,

1045
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: the oil companies are saying, well, you know, we're not

1046
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 1: gonna screw it up. And I don't believe they have

1047
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 1: any intention to screw it up, but they've certainly screwed

1048
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 1: up a lot of places where they had no intentions

1049
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: grew it up. M M. Yeah. I hunted caribou in

1050
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,720
Speaker 1: Alaska for the first time this past year in interior Alaska,

1051
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: hunting the forty mile herd Um and that was just

1052
01:04:14,200 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 1: an incredible powerful experience, just just seeing the migration, seeing

1053
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 1: that the so many thousands of animals moving through the

1054
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 1: scale of everything, the landscape, the wildlife. Um, what was

1055
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: the experience like for you? I have to imagine being

1056
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 1: in that area must have been quite the being in

1057
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: that area after a while. I mean I was the

1058
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: only uh non Indian in the village of about twenty people,

1059
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 1: and you pretty quickly come to feel like you're in

1060
01:04:50,080 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: their world and their rules are the ones that applied. Um.

1061
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: You know, I asked my uh my host while while

1062
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 1: all these uh Cariboo antlers were We're lying around basically

1063
01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:11,080
Speaker 1: just slowly decomposing into the moss, and he said, we

1064
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: we don't pick him up. We never have. And a

1065
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 1: few years ago there was a white woman who came, Um.

1066
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 1: I mean, she was a photographer and she was picking

1067
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: him up and we kept telling her that's that's really

1068
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: not a good idea, and she wasn't, wouldn't listen to us,

1069
01:05:28,160 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 1: and she left. And a few years later later that

1070
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 1: that lady got sick and she died. And I said,

1071
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:42,000
Speaker 1: don't you worry. I'm not going to touch the cariboo.

1072
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 1: But what really amazed me but the head hunter of

1073
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: the village, uh, and you know, a successful hunter up

1074
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:58,440
Speaker 1: there is still expected to share meet with the whole village. Um.

1075
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: He just had this sort of psychic connection to the caribou.

1076
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 1: And so he said, we're gonna go out hunting, you know, tomorrow,

1077
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 1: And then we didn't go. And I'm going, you know, Charlie,

1078
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 1: what's the deal And he goes, appear when you hurry

1079
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: is when you make mistakes, um, And you know, there's

1080
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: no room for mistakes, and that kind of an environment

1081
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: up on the tunder And then he wakes up the

1082
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 1: next day and he goes, Yep, it's today. Their antlers

1083
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 1: have hardened up and they'll go anywhere now. And he

1084
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 1: just knew this, you know, and I don't. I don't

1085
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:37,120
Speaker 1: know how he knew it. And then we went up

1086
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:42,280
Speaker 1: glassing for caribou and these guys are hand holding you know,

1087
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:48,040
Speaker 1: forty and sixty power spotting scopes and they're seeing caribou

1088
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 1: and saying, oh, that's a nice bunch over there, um,

1089
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: especially that one in the front, and try and go

1090
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: how how far away those us? Oh? Those thirty miles?

1091
01:07:05,120 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: And he was looking at him and from the way

1092
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: they were traveling and there, you know, they're posture and attitude.

1093
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: He seemed to know where they were going to be

1094
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: in twenty four hours. And so we went to that

1095
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 1: place and we camped, and we got up the next

1096
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 1: morning and shot through those caribou. It's got to be

1097
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: an incredible experience to be not only just being in

1098
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 1: a place like that, but then, like you just described,

1099
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: getting to be around and learn from Native hunters and

1100
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,120
Speaker 1: get to experience that culture. It seems like that's something

1101
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:51,360
Speaker 1: you had a few opportunities to do. Um. I remember

1102
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 1: reading a piece where you were snowshoeing with the cree.

1103
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 1: I think I remember in Canada somewhere. Um, is there

1104
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 1: anything else that you've taken those experiences that you've applied

1105
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 1: back to your own hunting when you're back on your

1106
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: own doing your own thing. Any whether it's a culture

1107
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 1: or a level of respect or so how l it's

1108
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 1: a level of respect and a knowledge that we are

1109
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: we were all like this, Um. You know, a thousand

1110
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 1: years ago we were we all believed, or two thousand

1111
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 1: years ago we all knew um the world about us

1112
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:39,759
Speaker 1: much more intimately because that's all there was. You know. Um.

1113
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 1: One of the one of the Gwitchen Indians the sky,

1114
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 1: he was like Oscar the Grouch. She never spoke unless

1115
01:08:46,160 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 1: he wanted to do. I asked him once, uh about

1116
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:55,599
Speaker 1: his grandparents, and he said, my grandmother used to say

1117
01:08:55,640 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: that in the old days, people were like an, I'm

1118
01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: because that's all what was in their minds. And you

1119
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 1: know they were they were kind of studying the natural

1120
01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:12,880
Speaker 1: world all the time because that was their TV. That

1121
01:09:13,000 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 1: was that's all there was. And you know, when you

1122
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: start living like that, you get in touch with all

1123
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 1: kinds of things and you know, so these are people

1124
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 1: who I didn't think there was anything at all extraordinary

1125
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 1: about having a dream about shooting a moose in a

1126
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: certain place, going there the next day and having a

1127
01:09:37,960 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: moose show up in that place and shooting it. They

1128
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:45,760
Speaker 1: just thought, you know, that's just the way the world works.

1129
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:51,560
Speaker 1: M where. To us, it seems like you know, um,

1130
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:57,479
Speaker 1: you know magic. Yeah, and and so much of our

1131
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 1: success quote unquote success in our minds, we we assume

1132
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: has to be attributed to skill and all these other

1133
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 1: things we've done, or the technology or our gear or whatever.

1134
01:10:09,320 --> 01:10:12,280
Speaker 1: But it's got to be so interesting to to be

1135
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: around someone who who's thinking about things much more deeply. Yeah,

1136
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 1: so I sort of, you know, every every bit of

1137
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: technology you use, you know, a scent, a scent you know,

1138
01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 1: as on its or something or um whatever, in a

1139
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: way distances you from the experience. I mean, I know what.

1140
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 1: It makes it easier, of course, but it also starts

1141
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: to hollow out, you know what it's all about. Mhm. Yeah,

1142
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 1: So take rewinding a little bit. In our conversation, I

1143
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:05,639
Speaker 1: want to shift to something here. We talked a lot

1144
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:11,440
Speaker 1: about how you've focused a lot of your your your storytelling,

1145
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:16,719
Speaker 1: your writing around the average person's experiences in the wild,

1146
01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 1: those mistakes and fumbles along the way, and um, you

1147
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 1: certainly talked about those mistakes you've made plenty, But you

1148
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 1: also I found a really a really nice job of

1149
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:32,719
Speaker 1: of showing in a in a kind of honest, real way,

1150
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: what you've learned from those experiences or how you grew. Um,

1151
01:11:36,960 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 1: there's always kind of that kind of moment. It seems

1152
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:41,559
Speaker 1: like most of your pieces. So so for someone right

1153
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:44,799
Speaker 1: now or for someone here six months from now or whatever,

1154
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 1: who is feeling that the fresh pain of some kind

1155
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:50,839
Speaker 1: of failure in the field. Maybe it was a miss,

1156
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 1: maybe they just spooked the deer of a lifetime. Maybe

1157
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 1: they lost the biggest fish I've ever had in the line. Um,

1158
01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:00,400
Speaker 1: what is your advice or what would you tell someone

1159
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:02,719
Speaker 1: to be thinking about in those moments or those moments

1160
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:12,640
Speaker 1: post that quote unquote failure? Um, well, failures how you learned? Um?

1161
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 1: You know if you aren't, if you were successful every

1162
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 1: time you went out, and you know this, this wouldn't

1163
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 1: have any any pull for you and the other you know,

1164
01:12:25,200 --> 01:12:28,120
Speaker 1: it really bothers me when when people get caught up

1165
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:31,679
Speaker 1: on you know, I've shot a bigger deer, you caught

1166
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: a bigger fish than you have. Um. You know a

1167
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 1: lot of times that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I mean

1168
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:43,040
Speaker 1: it may mean, you know, in some cases the guy

1169
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: is clearly a better angler. Um. But you know it's

1170
01:12:49,600 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 1: about it's about you having uh and enjoyable experience. It's

1171
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 1: not about you know, and I don't have to you know,

1172
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: I can go out and sail and still have a

1173
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 1: good time. You know. If you know, if you're out

1174
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:14,519
Speaker 1: shed hunting, hunting for shed antlers and you have to

1175
01:13:14,560 --> 01:13:17,479
Speaker 1: find one for it to be a good day, you

1176
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:22,080
Speaker 1: know you should you shouldn't be out there, um. And

1177
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 1: you know, to just get close to a big deer

1178
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 1: is an aspiring thing. Um. You know, we put so

1179
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 1: much emphasis on this notion of success and failure. And

1180
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, if you were somebody out there where hunting

1181
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: for food where success and failure was the difference between

1182
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 1: life and death, you know, would you care that much

1183
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 1: if the deer was you know, a big deer or

1184
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 1: the biggest dear. I don't think you would. I think

1185
01:13:59,280 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 1: you'd be happy to have some food. Um. And that's

1186
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:07,439
Speaker 1: what you know, that's what hunting derives from, so the

1187
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 1: whole Yeah, you know, all over the place, and uh,

1188
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:18,599
Speaker 1: there're guys who go to you know, take canned hunts

1189
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:22,479
Speaker 1: to have a big put big rack of antlers to

1190
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:26,840
Speaker 1: hang over there desk in their office, and it's not

1191
01:14:26,920 --> 01:14:29,040
Speaker 1: about the deer, and it's not about them, it's about

1192
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 1: trying to impress somebody else. Um. And if that's your motivation,

1193
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: once again, I think you should be doing something else

1194
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,720
Speaker 1: because it's supposed to be about it's supposed to be

1195
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:43,720
Speaker 1: a private thing and what you what you get out

1196
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:47,880
Speaker 1: of it, what you enjoy about it, not competition with

1197
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: anybody else but yourself. Yeah. That that focus on the experience. UM. Yeah,

1198
01:14:58,920 --> 01:15:01,680
Speaker 1: I think is so horton. And it is easy to

1199
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:05,559
Speaker 1: get caught up in all the hullabaloo around big deer

1200
01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:10,880
Speaker 1: antlers or the filling that tag. But but of course,

1201
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:12,800
Speaker 1: as you said, I think you lose sight of the

1202
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:15,680
Speaker 1: You're losing something really special if that's what you get

1203
01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:19,719
Speaker 1: caught up in. Um. And something that in my life

1204
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 1: that has forced me to start rethinking some of the

1205
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:25,640
Speaker 1: things that I appreciate about a hunting experience. UM, that

1206
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 1: I realized I'm gonna have to continue changing. Moving forward

1207
01:15:28,360 --> 01:15:30,559
Speaker 1: to the fact that we just had our first baby,

1208
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:32,559
Speaker 1: my wife and I. I've got a three month old son,

1209
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 1: and I'm already thinking thank you, thank you, I'm already

1210
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:39,240
Speaker 1: thinking about how that's going to change everything for me

1211
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 1: and us in the future, and the excitement I have

1212
01:15:43,800 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 1: for introducing him to the outdoors. I'm already out there

1213
01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:48,679
Speaker 1: and I already took him out behind the house, calling

1214
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,639
Speaker 1: turkeys and holding him and hearing gobblers coming in. Yeah,

1215
01:15:52,960 --> 01:15:55,360
Speaker 1: it was it was so cool. But I've read some

1216
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:58,599
Speaker 1: of your stories, we've we've talked about your daughter, and

1217
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 1: I'm curious what you've learned from your experiences introducing your

1218
01:16:04,479 --> 01:16:07,120
Speaker 1: daughter to the outdoors. Selfishly, if you have any advice

1219
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:09,760
Speaker 1: for me as as a as a father hoping to

1220
01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 1: introduce my son to hunting and fishing, anything you've learned

1221
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 1: there or you've experienced that would be worth passing on. Um.

1222
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:24,439
Speaker 1: I think getting your kids playing with little bows and

1223
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 1: arrows and you know, push button fishing reels and taking

1224
01:16:30,479 --> 01:16:36,799
Speaker 1: them out someplace where they can have a success, especially

1225
01:16:36,880 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 1: near the beginnings, is a big deal. Um. There's you know,

1226
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 1: the movie Nanook of the North is has been called,

1227
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:54,120
Speaker 1: you know, actually the first documentary film ever made, and

1228
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 1: I think it was like in the ninety twenties or something,

1229
01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,680
Speaker 1: and I know that parts of it were staged, but

1230
01:17:00,040 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 1: a lot of it is true. And you see that

1231
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 1: nook with his infant son, and the kid's got a

1232
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:12,679
Speaker 1: bow about sixteen inches long and is shooting little sticks

1233
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:16,160
Speaker 1: and the nook hasn't sit in his lap and just

1234
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: you know, release shoot stick after stick. And I'm starting

1235
01:17:22,040 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 1: to wish that I've done that with with Emma. My My.

1236
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:31,400
Speaker 1: My buddy down in Arkansas has three kids and they

1237
01:17:31,400 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 1: are all just hunting and fishing maniacs because he's passionate

1238
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:41,639
Speaker 1: about it, and he takes them, you know, every chance

1239
01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:45,240
Speaker 1: he gets. And now his kids are, you know, fighting

1240
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:47,880
Speaker 1: about who gets to go out when he can't take

1241
01:17:47,960 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 1: all three of them. It was his nine year old

1242
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 1: son's birthday and he goes, I gotta be home, man,

1243
01:17:56,080 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 1: I gotta take give about um to get his turkey um.

1244
01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 1: And that you know that when I was at the house,

1245
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,759
Speaker 1: the kids were showing me their turkeys and their mounted

1246
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:13,240
Speaker 1: deer and you know, they were just they were really psyched.

1247
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 1: And you know, if your kids have to have, you know,

1248
01:18:19,479 --> 01:18:22,080
Speaker 1: it has to be their choice. If if they you know,

1249
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:25,800
Speaker 1: if you're feeling like they have to love what I love,

1250
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: it's probably not gonna happen, you know. And uh so

1251
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 1: you got to give them space to to make it

1252
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: their own and at the same time give them opport,

1253
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:43,639
Speaker 1: you know, encourage them and give them opportunities. And I think,

1254
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:50,080
Speaker 1: you know, Emma, Emma's like me. You know, my father

1255
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:55,000
Speaker 1: tried to get me interested in golf and sailing, and

1256
01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:58,120
Speaker 1: he'd even bought me some golf clubs. And I think

1257
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: if he really wanted me to get interest it, and

1258
01:19:00,240 --> 01:19:04,280
Speaker 1: then he would have forbidden me to play golf or

1259
01:19:04,400 --> 01:19:08,000
Speaker 1: to sail, and I would have been all over that,

1260
01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:10,880
Speaker 1: you know, because I was just as that rebellion where

1261
01:19:10,960 --> 01:19:12,800
Speaker 1: anything my father was trying to get me to do,

1262
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:18,360
Speaker 1: we were already in this you know, edible power struggle. Um.

1263
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:20,840
Speaker 1: If he said you can't do this, I'd go, oh yeah,

1264
01:19:21,200 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 1: watch me. Hu. Speaking of speaking of kids, introducing kids

1265
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:33,040
Speaker 1: to hunting, UM, I think that that feeds into a

1266
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: larger um quandry we find ourselves as hunters in America today,

1267
01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 1: that being the the loss of hunters in America and

1268
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,599
Speaker 1: continuing decline. And you recently wrote a short piece about

1269
01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:54,400
Speaker 1: this title, the next Endangered species is the American Hunter. UM.

1270
01:19:54,439 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: Can you speak to that a little bit? What what

1271
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:59,240
Speaker 1: you're noticing there? What your thoughts on how how we

1272
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,840
Speaker 1: can maybe try to plug the plug the damn up

1273
01:20:02,840 --> 01:20:07,840
Speaker 1: and stop the bleeding. It's it's a real challenge because

1274
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:13,680
Speaker 1: you know, the kids are raised on video games and

1275
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:17,720
Speaker 1: indoor you know, all their connections. You know, when I

1276
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:21,240
Speaker 1: was a kid, the day you turned sixteen, you went

1277
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:23,760
Speaker 1: and got your driver's license. That was that was the

1278
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:26,639
Speaker 1: rite of passage. Kids don't need to do that anymore.

1279
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:28,800
Speaker 1: They can just go in their bedroom and shut the

1280
01:20:28,840 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 1: door and have access to their whole social world, their

1281
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:42,120
Speaker 1: social lives. And you know, parents, you know, usually don't

1282
01:20:42,160 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: know anything about it, and it's hard to compete with

1283
01:20:45,080 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 1: the you know, the pleasures of video games are pretty instant.

1284
01:20:51,760 --> 01:20:57,719
Speaker 1: UM and hunting, you know, hunting rewards patients and study,

1285
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:03,200
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it's stiff competition. And then you have,

1286
01:21:03,360 --> 01:21:05,519
Speaker 1: you know, the divorce rate where you have a lot

1287
01:21:05,560 --> 01:21:07,920
Speaker 1: of times it's it's the mom who has the kids,

1288
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:12,439
Speaker 1: and the mom doesn't have any experience hunting UM, and

1289
01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: some moms get you know, unless a mom sort of

1290
01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:20,360
Speaker 1: makes a decision that she wants her kids to get

1291
01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:25,799
Speaker 1: involved in hunting and fishing UM and she has no experience,

1292
01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 1: she has to seek somebody out for that. Um. So

1293
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:33,240
Speaker 1: first of all, she has to be open to that possibility,

1294
01:21:33,280 --> 01:21:34,720
Speaker 1: and then second of all, she has to be able

1295
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:38,120
Speaker 1: to find somebody to do that. Um, both of which

1296
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:46,640
Speaker 1: are you know, getting increasingly difficult. UM. I wish you know,

1297
01:21:46,720 --> 01:21:55,360
Speaker 1: I wish I had an answer for it. Um. You know,

1298
01:21:56,400 --> 01:21:58,600
Speaker 1: I really don't know. I really don't know what it is.

1299
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:05,160
Speaker 1: It's a challenge. It's a challenge that I think, and

1300
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:07,679
Speaker 1: a lot of people are talking about this these days

1301
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: and have been for a while now, and for good reason. UM,

1302
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's something we need to take seriously.

1303
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 1: There's always that that one buddy who says, well, good,

1304
01:22:17,160 --> 01:22:18,720
Speaker 1: I don't want more hunters in the woods. Have a

1305
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:21,479
Speaker 1: hard enough time finding a little place too as it is.

1306
01:22:21,560 --> 01:22:25,840
Speaker 1: But as long as it's okay for me, there's no problem. Right.

1307
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:28,400
Speaker 1: But that just isn't gonna work out in the long run.

1308
01:22:28,479 --> 01:22:33,160
Speaker 1: If if if he is, hunters aren't out there, UM

1309
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:35,519
Speaker 1: able to speak up for ourselves in our way of life,

1310
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 1: if there's no one, if there's no one practicing it.

1311
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 1: Not to mention that economic impacts we have as far

1312
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:46,640
Speaker 1: as our our tax dollars going to pay for conservation

1313
01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:49,960
Speaker 1: and wildlife management. UM. There's a whole lot of implications there,

1314
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:53,800
Speaker 1: that's for sure. Yeah. You know, I think one thing

1315
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 1: Honors can do is look for those opportunities. You know,

1316
01:22:58,320 --> 01:23:02,640
Speaker 1: if you know a single mom with kids, it's you

1317
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:04,720
Speaker 1: can approach her and say, you know, if you ever

1318
01:23:04,760 --> 01:23:06,360
Speaker 1: have any interest that you know, I'd be happy to

1319
01:23:06,400 --> 01:23:13,880
Speaker 1: take your your kids fishing or show them where I hunt. UM.

1320
01:23:13,920 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 1: I volunteered for some of these. UM there's a local

1321
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 1: you know, take your take your kids fishing day where

1322
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:27,040
Speaker 1: a parent who doesn't have any experience can take their

1323
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:30,800
Speaker 1: kids down to the river and um, you know, they're

1324
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:36,120
Speaker 1: supplied with rod and real and bait UM and an

1325
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:41,599
Speaker 1: adult who who takes an interest is you know, it's

1326
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:47,280
Speaker 1: a powerful thing for any kids. Mm hmm. Yeah absolutely, Bill.

1327
01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: I feel like I would love to just like sit

1328
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:53,240
Speaker 1: down with you with a coffee or a beer and

1329
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 1: talk to you for like three hours. I feel like

1330
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:58,960
Speaker 1: I enjoy your perspective and your story so much. But

1331
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: because I actually have a hard stop because I'm going

1332
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 1: to be put on babysitting duty here with the little

1333
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:07,240
Speaker 1: guy soon, I have to wrap this out much sooner

1334
01:24:07,280 --> 01:24:10,360
Speaker 1: than i'd like. UM, But I've I have two more

1335
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 1: selfish questions, UM, that I want to run buy your

1336
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 1: here real quick. One of those, I am an absolute

1337
01:24:18,439 --> 01:24:23,000
Speaker 1: book worm addict. I I read and read and read.

1338
01:24:23,080 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of curious. Being a writer and an outdoorsman,

1339
01:24:26,680 --> 01:24:29,360
Speaker 1: do you have any favorite books related to hunting or fishing,

1340
01:24:29,680 --> 01:24:36,120
Speaker 1: or wildlife or nature or anything like that that you'd recommend? Um,

1341
01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 1: I've written about this. UM. William Faulkner's short story or

1342
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:51,280
Speaker 1: sometimes it's been called a noveltt or whatever the word

1343
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:57,000
Speaker 1: is for short novel called The Bear is one of

1344
01:24:58,200 --> 01:25:01,679
Speaker 1: the and it's actually been called the best short story

1345
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:07,160
Speaker 1: in in English. Is is just a fantastic read. And

1346
01:25:07,160 --> 01:25:11,479
Speaker 1: it's about this kid's um. Then in Mississippi going to

1347
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:16,560
Speaker 1: the big Bottom these you know, this swamp area to

1348
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:21,920
Speaker 1: hunt to chase this big bear called Old Ben each year.

1349
01:25:22,200 --> 01:25:27,160
Speaker 1: And this group of hunters has been following Old Ben

1350
01:25:27,320 --> 01:25:29,360
Speaker 1: for so long that they he writes, at one point,

1351
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:32,160
Speaker 1: he writes that they they don't really they no longer

1352
01:25:32,200 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 1: expect to catch him. It's just kind of a ritual.

1353
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 1: Let's say, go through. And he has his hunting mentor

1354
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:46,040
Speaker 1: is a former slave named Sam Fathers who takes him

1355
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 1: under his wings and teaches him what he knows, and

1356
01:25:51,880 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 1: you know, by the time he's ten, this kid is

1357
01:25:53,760 --> 01:26:01,080
Speaker 1: sort of a master woodsman. But it's it's just it's

1358
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:05,240
Speaker 1: just an amazing read. I reread it almost every year. Wow.

1359
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,679
Speaker 1: So that's one. Yeah, that's one that's been on my list.

1360
01:26:09,200 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot of people mentioned that anything anything

1361
01:26:12,320 --> 01:26:20,519
Speaker 1: else that jumps to mind, um not knocked out much

1362
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:25,960
Speaker 1: hunting specific Uh. Cormac McCarthy really has a feel for

1363
01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:29,519
Speaker 1: the natural world and is a great writer to boot,

1364
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:38,360
Speaker 1: So anything of his I really enjoy. Yeah, I've never

1365
01:26:38,400 --> 01:26:44,000
Speaker 1: I've never read such interesting, interesting descriptions of a landscape

1366
01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:48,520
Speaker 1: as he does. He has just infinite ways to describe

1367
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:54,559
Speaker 1: a view or um a setting. It's it's very impressive, Yeah,

1368
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:59,519
Speaker 1: and very totally original. Mm hmm. So so then I

1369
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:02,000
Speaker 1: think that brings me to my my last question, which

1370
01:27:02,240 --> 01:27:04,880
Speaker 1: ties into that a little bit of what you talked

1371
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:08,600
Speaker 1: about there with the bear. I'm just curious selfishly as

1372
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:12,200
Speaker 1: a writer myself. And then also I think an important

1373
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:18,000
Speaker 1: part of hunting and fishing culture is the story, right,

1374
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:20,519
Speaker 1: the big fish story or the hunting story, and sitting

1375
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:23,000
Speaker 1: around the campfire back at the lodge or whatever it

1376
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:27,920
Speaker 1: might be, recounting your experience and reliving those moments, and

1377
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:33,280
Speaker 1: you are a master of that craft. So Bill, from

1378
01:27:33,280 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 1: your perspective, what makes a good story? Uh? Damn, I

1379
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:47,800
Speaker 1: wish I knew um good story? Uh wow, that is

1380
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:53,160
Speaker 1: really hard say, because you you know, there's some different

1381
01:27:53,280 --> 01:28:01,520
Speaker 1: kinds of stories structuring in very different different ways. Um,

1382
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:04,960
Speaker 1: I just feel totally inequick to give advice about that.

1383
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 1: Is there any consistent element between the stories that you

1384
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:13,000
Speaker 1: enjoy the most or anything like that? Well, I guess

1385
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:18,599
Speaker 1: the consistent element is that I like them all. But

1386
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:26,160
Speaker 1: there you go. This is known as a weekending. Um.

1387
01:28:26,240 --> 01:28:28,400
Speaker 1: I wish I wish I could. I wish I could

1388
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:33,200
Speaker 1: come up with something more interesting. Unexpected things. You know,

1389
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:41,400
Speaker 1: every story should have some element of unexpected, unforeseeable things,

1390
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:48,840
Speaker 1: should have some humor in it and some um you know,

1391
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:54,679
Speaker 1: some pathos, something that really gets you at the heart

1392
01:28:54,880 --> 01:29:01,679
Speaker 1: heart level. Yeah. Well, to your earlier point that most

1393
01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:05,960
Speaker 1: kids stories are written by you, Bill, Um, where where

1394
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:09,080
Speaker 1: can where can folks find your books? Could you? Could

1395
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: you kind of tell us? In my introduction I mentioned

1396
01:29:13,080 --> 01:29:15,120
Speaker 1: a bit of your work, But if if there's anything

1397
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:18,120
Speaker 1: you'd like to say about your books, your articles, or

1398
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:20,679
Speaker 1: where people can connect with you or find your work online.

1399
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:24,840
Speaker 1: I'd love for you to share that with us now. Uh, well,

1400
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 1: you can find there's a lot of more on the

1401
01:29:27,040 --> 01:29:32,120
Speaker 1: Steel in the Stream website. Uh. My latest book, which

1402
01:29:32,200 --> 01:29:35,559
Speaker 1: came out in December is should the Attempt Be Burning

1403
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:43,360
Speaker 1: Like that? Professionals, Professional Amateurs Guide to the Outdoors? Um,

1404
01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:46,519
Speaker 1: and you can find you know, you can search with

1405
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 1: my books on Amazon or any uh, you know, any

1406
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:54,040
Speaker 1: of the online retailers and just type them by Bill

1407
01:29:54,120 --> 01:30:03,800
Speaker 1: Heavy and UM, they should come up. I gotta I

1408
01:30:03,840 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 1: gotta tell you a story, Bill before I let you

1409
01:30:06,479 --> 01:30:09,519
Speaker 1: go here, because because I picked a picked up a

1410
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 1: copy of your book, should the Tend to Be Burning

1411
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:14,479
Speaker 1: like that? Um? I don't know. Maybe it was around

1412
01:30:14,560 --> 01:30:18,120
Speaker 1: Christmas time I had it, and my wife went into

1413
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:21,080
Speaker 1: labor in late January, and that was the book I

1414
01:30:21,120 --> 01:30:23,400
Speaker 1: was currently reading. So I brought that with me to

1415
01:30:23,439 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 1: the hospital because her water broke. But it didn't seem

1416
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:29,200
Speaker 1: like it was going to be a quick thing. So

1417
01:30:29,240 --> 01:30:31,519
Speaker 1: I knew, Okay, it's gonna be a long kind of night.

1418
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 1: So I brought exactly So I brought your book along

1419
01:30:35,080 --> 01:30:37,479
Speaker 1: and I had that sitting on like the window sill.

1420
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 1: Now things escalated throughout the morning, and now we've gotten

1421
01:30:42,320 --> 01:30:46,599
Speaker 1: to the point where she's about to give birth. And

1422
01:30:47,120 --> 01:30:50,920
Speaker 1: it had been this horribly intense, you know, eight hour process.

1423
01:30:51,000 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 1: I was so stressed my wife was going through all this.

1424
01:30:53,320 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 1: I couldn't do anything to help her. Um it just

1425
01:30:56,240 --> 01:31:00,640
Speaker 1: was was traumatizing. And finally it had gotten to the

1426
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:02,479
Speaker 1: point where the doctor was going to come in. Because

1427
01:31:02,479 --> 01:31:04,720
Speaker 1: the doctor wasn't involved very much, had been like the

1428
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:07,040
Speaker 1: nurses who have been helping us through all this. But

1429
01:31:07,479 --> 01:31:10,160
Speaker 1: now finally it was like that moment, it's okay, it's happening,

1430
01:31:10,280 --> 01:31:13,040
Speaker 1: let's go get the doctor. And I'm thinking, okay, like

1431
01:31:13,080 --> 01:31:16,000
Speaker 1: I'm all amped up. We've been running on adrenaline for

1432
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:19,840
Speaker 1: like a day. And it was this very very intense moment,

1433
01:31:19,840 --> 01:31:23,040
Speaker 1: and I was scared and excited and just full with emotion.

1434
01:31:23,520 --> 01:31:25,479
Speaker 1: And the doctor comes in, and I'm imagining he's going

1435
01:31:25,520 --> 01:31:27,800
Speaker 1: to run in and and get ready and tell my

1436
01:31:27,840 --> 01:31:29,719
Speaker 1: wife to start pushing more and the baby is gonna

1437
01:31:29,720 --> 01:31:31,559
Speaker 1: come out and it's gonna be this huge thing. And

1438
01:31:32,280 --> 01:31:34,719
Speaker 1: he comes in and he looks at the window sill

1439
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:38,000
Speaker 1: and he sees this book, and he says, a professional

1440
01:31:38,040 --> 01:31:42,760
Speaker 1: amateurs guide to the outdoors. He's a professional amateur. How

1441
01:31:42,800 --> 01:31:45,320
Speaker 1: can you be a professional and an amateur, isn't that

1442
01:31:45,640 --> 01:31:47,720
Speaker 1: isn't an oxymoron? And he's like, whose book is this?

1443
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:49,840
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it's mine, but about my wife And

1444
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:51,840
Speaker 1: he's like, well, I just don't get that. What is

1445
01:31:51,880 --> 01:31:55,559
Speaker 1: this book about? And for for several minutes he tries

1446
01:31:55,600 --> 01:31:58,120
Speaker 1: to talk to me about your book while my wife's

1447
01:31:58,120 --> 01:32:02,240
Speaker 1: screaming in agony right next to me. It was the

1448
01:32:02,280 --> 01:32:08,800
Speaker 1: most bizarre experience. It's weird. Yeah, So, so thank you

1449
01:32:08,880 --> 01:32:11,040
Speaker 1: for that. Bill. You've given me a story I will

1450
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:17,479
Speaker 1: never forget because of your book title. So yeah, I'm

1451
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 1: glad he was born without complicating as soon as as

1452
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:25,599
Speaker 1: soon as I cleared the air on what the book

1453
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:28,519
Speaker 1: was about, and he got back to work. Um, it

1454
01:32:28,560 --> 01:32:30,719
Speaker 1: all went very smoothly, and we've got a very healthy

1455
01:32:30,760 --> 01:32:36,080
Speaker 1: baby boy now, so it's a happy ending. Yeah. So so, Bill,

1456
01:32:36,160 --> 01:32:38,600
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you so much for being here. I

1457
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:42,280
Speaker 1: really enjoyed our conversation. And as I've said already to

1458
01:32:42,360 --> 01:32:46,960
Speaker 1: anyone listening, I cannot recommend Bill's books enough and read

1459
01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 1: everything he writes for Field and stream it's it's absolutely

1460
01:32:49,640 --> 01:32:53,080
Speaker 1: top notch, So thank you Bill. You're bet I enjoyed

1461
01:32:53,120 --> 01:32:56,880
Speaker 1: it and that is a rap. I hope you enjoyed

1462
01:32:56,920 --> 01:32:59,360
Speaker 1: that one as much as I did. And if you

1463
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:02,400
Speaker 1: dig it, kick out that please go on over to

1464
01:33:02,560 --> 01:33:05,200
Speaker 1: iTunes and leave us a rating or review. It's a

1465
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:08,439
Speaker 1: huge help keeps the lights on, it keeps his podcast going,

1466
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 1: So thank you in advance for your help there. Also,

1467
01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:13,559
Speaker 1: if I can have you do a few more things,

1468
01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:16,719
Speaker 1: make sure you subscribe to the Wired Hunt YouTube channel,

1469
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:19,280
Speaker 1: putting more and more videos out there. I would love

1470
01:33:19,320 --> 01:33:22,200
Speaker 1: you guys to catch shows. And finally, make sure you're

1471
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:26,400
Speaker 1: following wired Hunt on Facebook and Instagram. I'm sharing lots

1472
01:33:26,439 --> 01:33:29,040
Speaker 1: about my day to day adventures there as well and

1473
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 1: other news. Want to give you another reminder that I

1474
01:33:31,439 --> 01:33:33,680
Speaker 1: am going to be at the back Country Hunters and

1475
01:33:33,720 --> 01:33:39,080
Speaker 1: Anglers camp Fire story Night next week May in Detroit, Michigan.

1476
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:41,840
Speaker 1: If you're telling a story there, the story time is

1477
01:33:41,880 --> 01:33:45,439
Speaker 1: from seven to nine pm at the Detroit Bus Company.

1478
01:33:45,760 --> 01:33:47,439
Speaker 1: I would love to see you guys there. I will

1479
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 1: be there saying hi, shaking some hands, spinning some yarns

1480
01:33:52,400 --> 01:33:54,560
Speaker 1: and it should be an absolute blast. Would love to

1481
01:33:54,560 --> 01:33:57,960
Speaker 1: see you in Detroit next Tuesday. And then if that

1482
01:33:58,040 --> 01:34:01,120
Speaker 1: doesn't work out, if you fast forward to June one,

1483
01:34:01,560 --> 01:34:03,680
Speaker 1: Steve Ronella and the Meat Eater crew are going to

1484
01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:07,200
Speaker 1: be having a live podcast in Columbus, Ohio, like I

1485
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:09,639
Speaker 1: said on June one, and I'm gonna be there as

1486
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:11,960
Speaker 1: one of their guests. I would love to see you

1487
01:34:12,000 --> 01:34:14,599
Speaker 1: there too. I think that most of the tickets are

1488
01:34:14,640 --> 01:34:16,680
Speaker 1: sold already, but there might be a few left if

1489
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:19,719
Speaker 1: you hurry, so head on over to meat Eater dot

1490
01:34:19,960 --> 01:34:24,400
Speaker 1: live to get tickets for that. Again, that's Columbus, Ohio June.

1491
01:34:24,640 --> 01:34:26,240
Speaker 1: Would love to see you there. It would love to

1492
01:34:26,240 --> 01:34:29,320
Speaker 1: see you at the b h A Story night on May. Finally,

1493
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:31,680
Speaker 1: want to thank our partners who make all this possible.

1494
01:34:31,720 --> 01:34:34,919
Speaker 1: Big thanks to Yeddie Cooler's, Matthews Archery, May Haven Optics,

1495
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:38,719
Speaker 1: White Tailed Properties and hunt Terra Maps. And finally, of course,

1496
01:34:39,439 --> 01:34:41,880
Speaker 1: thank you all for listening, thanks for being a part

1497
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:44,519
Speaker 1: of the wire hunt community, and until next time, I

1498
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:47,519
Speaker 1: hope you'll stay wired to Hunt.