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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Democrats say Americans

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Speaker 1: have the right to see President Trump's tax returns. They

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Speaker 1: say in nineteen law gives them the power to ask

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Speaker 1: the Treasury Secretary to turn over anyone's tax returns. But

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Speaker 1: Democrats are bracing for an almost certain legal battle. Joining

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Speaker 1: me is Georgiana, professor at the University of Virginia Law School.

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Speaker 1: He was formerly chief of staff of Congress's Joint Committee

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Speaker 1: on Taxation. Church tell us a little bit about this

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Speaker 1: law and if it does what Democrats say, Hi, Jared, Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to um. Uh. In series of events, uh

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Speaker 1: not actually dissimilar to what's going on right now occurred. Um.

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Speaker 1: For example, the Treasury Secretary was Andrew Mellen, who was

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Speaker 1: reputed to be one of the three wealthiest people in

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Speaker 1: the country, and he continued to own a number of

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Speaker 1: private business interests while he was serving as Surretary Secretary,

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Speaker 1: and questions arose as to whether he had any conflicts

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Speaker 1: of interest between his private business interests and his personal

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Speaker 1: responsibility to the nation. Another issue involved UH an investigation

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Speaker 1: of various misdeeds on the part of some of the

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Speaker 1: top cabinet officials during that period of time, and UH,

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Speaker 1: in any event, Congress determined that it needed the ability

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Speaker 1: to seek out the tax return information, which prior to

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Speaker 1: that law was exclusively in the hands of the president.

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Speaker 1: So the president prior to had the soul of authority

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Speaker 1: in the country to obtain tax return information and potentially

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Speaker 1: to disclose it to the public. And Congress passed this

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Speaker 1: law essentially giving itself or its committees, certain of its

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Speaker 1: committees the same authority as a coagal branch of government.

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Speaker 1: So the Treasury Secretary, Stephen Venutian, has said that he

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Speaker 1: would review the request and respond if required by law,

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Speaker 1: but he hasn't said what legal position he might take.

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Speaker 1: What do you envision happening if he says no, I'm

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Speaker 1: not turning them over, right, So, so the statute is

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Speaker 1: very clear. It simply says that the UH that the

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Speaker 1: committee or the chairman of the tax committees can request

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Speaker 1: anybody's tax information, and it directs the Treasure Secretary to

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Speaker 1: furnish any requested information. There's no excuse or willill whom

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Speaker 1: that is in the statute. So the statute really gives

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Speaker 1: him no authority whatsoever to refuse a request. Uh that said,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's certainly possible that he will nevertheless say

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Speaker 1: that that he's not going to do it. And if

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Speaker 1: he does respond in that way, then it's really up

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Speaker 1: to Congress to decide what, if anything, it wants to do,

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Speaker 1: whether they want to try to enforce their request or

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Speaker 1: whether they just want to back off. If they want

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Speaker 1: to enforce it, probably it's going to end up in court,

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Speaker 1: and then it's just a question of what the what

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Speaker 1: a court might do in that situation. To my knowledge,

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Speaker 1: this has never occurred. The authority actually has been exercised

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Speaker 1: quite rarely in the one hundred years that it's been existed.

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Speaker 1: But every time it has been exercised, I don't know

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Speaker 1: of a single instance when the request has been refused,

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Speaker 1: So we would be on uncharted territory at that point. Now.

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Speaker 1: President Trump, as a reason for not giving over his taxes,

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Speaker 1: has repeatedly said that he's been under audit by the

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Speaker 1: Internal Revenue Service since two thousand nine? Have you ever

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Speaker 1: seen an audit that lasted a decade? And can Congress

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Speaker 1: just get the i R S to confirm whether or

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Speaker 1: not there is an audit? Well, those are two very

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Speaker 1: good questions. UH. In terms of the second question, Congress

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Speaker 1: can get that information, although that is tax return information,

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Speaker 1: So Congress would actually have to use this authority to

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Speaker 1: obtain the information. If Congress just kind of willy nilly

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Speaker 1: wanted to ask somebody the i R S, they couldn't

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Speaker 1: respond to that without breaking the law. Only if Congress

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Speaker 1: goes through this formal procedure of requesting that information from

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Speaker 1: the Treasury Secretary, could they find out whether it's even

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Speaker 1: under audit. Uh. In terms of the length of the audit,

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Speaker 1: ten years does seem like a very long period of time.

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Speaker 1: I you know, I have to confess I don't have

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Speaker 1: personal knowledge of any that would have extended that long. UM.

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Speaker 1: I do know that the the existing Commissioner of the

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Speaker 1: Internal Revenue testified on this point and indicated that, at

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Speaker 1: least in his experience, and he was a long time practitioner, UM,

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Speaker 1: he had never seen a an audit extend for that

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Speaker 1: period of time. Georgia. Are people expecting too much from

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Speaker 1: these tax returns? What kind of things could the committee learn?

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Speaker 1: Keeping in mind that Trump has a lot of businesses

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Speaker 1: who have their own finances and returns, right, and so

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming that if the committee were to take action,

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Speaker 1: they would seek out not just the personal income tax

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Speaker 1: returns of the president, but also some of his business returns,

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Speaker 1: and those would also be available to the to the

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Speaker 1: Tax Committee under this authority. I would think that they

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Speaker 1: would probably seek out some of those, uh, And they

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Speaker 1: would I would think, choose the most promising businesses that

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Speaker 1: seem to be most potentially involved in some of the

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Speaker 1: issues they want to examine. In terms of what they

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Speaker 1: would find, UM, you know there, I don't. I don't

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Speaker 1: really know. UM. I think that tax returns may well provide,

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Speaker 1: particularly the business returns, may well provide helpful clues to

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Speaker 1: begin to untangle some of the issues that have been

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Speaker 1: swirling around for two years, um conflicts of interest, issues

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Speaker 1: of that nature. But it wouldn't be likely that that

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Speaker 1: that the tax return itself would answer all of the questions,

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Speaker 1: but it may in fact provide useful leads to for

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Speaker 1: further infim investigation in areas outside of tax returns. Right,

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. At least we would find out

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Speaker 1: whether or not he's paid taxes over the last decade.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being here. That's Georgian's professor at

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Speaker 1: the University of Virginia Law School, also the former lead

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Speaker 1: chief of staff of Congress's nonpartisan Joint Committee on Taxation.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can

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Speaker 1: subscribe and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brosso.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg