Speaker 1: My mom grew up with going to therapy is a weakness.
Speaker 1: Now it's being more normalized now people understand, but it's
Speaker 1: like it's the best thing that ever happened to me.
Speaker 1: What exactly is trauma?
Speaker 2: Trauma is a subjective definition in some way, because I
Speaker 2: cannot tell you if your traumatized or not. This topic
Speaker 2: of post traumatic growth is precisely for people that have
Speaker 2: gone through difficult experiences like you, and they turn this
Speaker 2: pain into a purpose.
Speaker 1: Yes, Hey, what up, y'all? Welcome back to my podcast,
Speaker 1: Cheeky's in Chill. Today's episode is going to be a
Speaker 1: little heavy. That's because we're going to be talking about trauma,
Speaker 1: but not in the typical way. Yes, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about what trauma is, but we're also going to
Speaker 1: talk about some of the so called gifts of trauma.
Speaker 1: And we have a really great guest with us today,
Speaker 1: so let's.
Speaker 2: Get into it.
Speaker 1: This is Cheeky's and here with me today is clinical
Speaker 1: psychologist Edith Shiro. She's based in Miami and she has
Speaker 1: a private practice there where she specializes in trauma. She's
Speaker 1: also the author of the book The Unexpected Gift of Trauma.
Speaker 1: Doctor Hiro, Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much for this invitation. I
Speaker 2: love sharing time with you and spend them with your
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: You're so sweet, You're so sweet. Thank you. I'm so excited.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have so many questions for you, but
Speaker 1: I want to start off with your background. What interested
Speaker 1: you in, you know, studying trauma.
Speaker 2: I always have this very professional answer, but I also
Speaker 2: have a very personal answer, and my answer is that
Speaker 2: I come from a family of war survivors, ho local survivors.
Speaker 2: My grandparents were in concentration camps. My other set of
Speaker 2: grandparents are refugees from Syria. And I am myself, like
Speaker 2: as you know, and you probably too, a immigrant in
Speaker 2: a few different countries. So that experience of going through
Speaker 2: traumatic events and then living it myself in some way,
Speaker 2: I mean, I have a few traumatic experiences, but myself
Speaker 2: having informed me not only for my personal of obviously
Speaker 2: in my personal life, but my professional work. So I've
Speaker 2: always had this curiosity, you know, in the community that
Speaker 2: I was living in Venezuela, of like how all these
Speaker 2: immigrants and people were adjusting to the country, and a
Speaker 2: lot of them came from war torn countries, and you know,
Speaker 2: difficult journeys to get to South America, And that was
Speaker 2: always my question, how do people survive? How do people
Speaker 2: do this? How come some people do so well like
Speaker 2: my grandfather, for example, and some people do so bad
Speaker 2: like my grandmother, you know, Like it was this conscioust
Speaker 2: and I was super curious of the human condition.
Speaker 1: So how old were you when you realize this? When
Speaker 1: you realize I want to study trauma?
Speaker 2: So so I've always been interested in psychology ever since
Speaker 2: I was a little girl, and people in my school
Speaker 2: always called me like the psychologists, and people would come
Speaker 2: to me and to ask me questions, and I was
Speaker 2: very curious about the human condition. Also when I had
Speaker 2: to formalize my years of study, there was always a
Speaker 2: research question, and my questions always came to how come
Speaker 2: some people have more and more in touch with their
Speaker 2: feelings and some are not? Why people having personality traits
Speaker 2: that help them drive in life and some people stay stuck?
Speaker 2: Like I've always had these questions. And also my doctoral
Speaker 2: dissertation twenty five years ago was on post traumatic growth.
Speaker 2: So really my book, I wrote this twenty five years
Speaker 2: ago already, like all this research and all this stuff
Speaker 2: was already Yeah, so it's been really my interest to
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 1: Oh, I love that's what you were born to do this.
Speaker 1: You were born to do this, and that's and I'm
Speaker 1: asking how old you were because I've wanted to study
Speaker 1: psychology since I can remember, since I was in high
Speaker 1: school because I was actually molested by my dad, and
Speaker 1: I started going to therapy at twelve, and I said,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this really helped me. I'm a different
Speaker 1: person after therapy. I want to help people. Of course,
Speaker 1: life changed and I had to help my mom and
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to go to school. But I'm like,
Speaker 1: darn it, Hey, maybe it's not. It's never too late,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I could, you know, and still do
Speaker 1: it because it's something I'm very passionate about.
Speaker 2: No, thank you for sharing the tickets. Thank you for
Speaker 2: sharing that. And I'm actually very impressed that you were
Speaker 2: in therapy at twelve. That doesn't usually happen because parents
Speaker 2: are not usually that aware that being in therapy is
Speaker 2: so helpful, especially when you've had an experience like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what it was the police department,
Speaker 1: I believe, or the doctor that I went to see
Speaker 1: because my mom she grew up with going to therapy
Speaker 1: is a weakness sort of thing, right, you know, so
Speaker 1: she didn't she didn't know any better. So to her,
Speaker 1: it's like, what do you mean you need therapy? That's
Speaker 1: for someone that's not mentally okay, And it's like now
Speaker 1: it's being more normalized. Now you know, people understand. But
Speaker 1: it's like, it's the best thing that ever happened to me.
Speaker 1: It was going to therapy, which is why it sparked
Speaker 1: that in me. So anyway, that's why I wanted to
Speaker 1: ask you so thank you for sharing. Now I know
Speaker 1: you were born to do this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but actually, but actually I'm curious why you say that,
Speaker 2: because you know, this topic of phostraumatic growth is precisely
Speaker 2: for people that have gone through such difficult experiences like you,
Speaker 2: and they turned this pain into a purpose. Then they
Speaker 2: turned you know, the one becomes the medicine. Yeah, the
Speaker 2: breakdown becomes the breakthrough. So you're such a beautiful example
Speaker 2: of phostromedic growth.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. That's what I had to do.
Speaker 1: You know, I was very shy to talk about it
Speaker 1: for so long, and I said why, I mean, let's
Speaker 1: just keep it under wraps. And my mom was the
Speaker 1: one that helped me with that and said, you know what,
Speaker 1: You're going to help other little girls. And from then
Speaker 1: it just something just clicked in my mind and I said, yes,
Speaker 1: I have to help people. This happened to me for
Speaker 1: a reason because God knew I was going to be
Speaker 1: able to get out of it to help other people.
Speaker 1: And it's like you said, I turned it into a
Speaker 1: purpose into something positive. So if you can explain to
Speaker 1: me and to my listeners, what exactly is trauma?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I get asked that question all the time,
Speaker 2: and I love it because trauma has been changing in
Speaker 2: its definition. Maybe fifty years ago, we will talk about trauma,
Speaker 2: refer to the soldiers that would come from war, from
Speaker 2: the Vietnam War, from the you know, and they'd say, oh, yes,
Speaker 2: that somebody that is traumatized. That's when the definition of
Speaker 2: post traumatic stress disorder became into like the diagnosis, the
Speaker 2: clinical diagnosis of psychiatry and psychology. That's when it got
Speaker 2: more accepted. Right in the nineteen seventies, I would say,
Speaker 2: But then as we move along and we learn more
Speaker 2: about the traumatization and the experiences that are difficult for people,
Speaker 2: we've expanded at least in the way that I work,
Speaker 2: we've expanded the concept of trauma, and in my book,
Speaker 2: I offer that definition of trauma that is any overwhelming
Speaker 2: experience for which we don't have the tools, and any
Speaker 2: experience that shatters your belief system about yourself, about others,
Speaker 2: and about the world right and then you have to
Speaker 2: like rearrange who you are and who other people are
Speaker 2: and how the world functions at that moment. You don't
Speaker 2: have the tools, you don't have the resources to really comprehend.
Speaker 2: And it can be like a big thing. It can
Speaker 2: be a work, It can be earthquake. It can be
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, it can be an accident, can be the
Speaker 2: loss of a loved one, but also cheekies. It can
Speaker 2: be small things. It can be the microaggressions that you
Speaker 2: live when you walk down the street and you're being
Speaker 2: rejected or discriminated against, or when you're being bullied in
Speaker 2: school for many years, or when you get divorced and
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden you lose not only your
Speaker 2: partner but also your friends, or when you don't get
Speaker 2: invited into your friend's house and then you know, all
Speaker 2: your girlfriends you know stop talking to you. Like these
Speaker 2: are things that for some people are very traumatizing, for
Speaker 2: some people are not. And that's why trauma is a
Speaker 2: subjective definition in some way, because I cannot tell you
Speaker 2: if you're traumatized or not. I mean, you are the
Speaker 2: one that can tell me. You know, what they did.
Speaker 2: The pandemic was very traumatizing for me. Okay, maybe for
Speaker 2: me it wasn't, but for you it was super traumatizing.
Speaker 2: So I'm not the one to like define for you
Speaker 2: it's traumatic or not. So that's why I want to
Speaker 2: expand the definition.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that because I think so
Speaker 1: many people need to also be okay with My experience
Speaker 1: is different from yours, and it's okay, it's not. That's
Speaker 1: why I don't like people saying sometimes, oh, you're so dramatic.
Speaker 1: Wait a second, it didn't. It affected me in a
Speaker 1: different way like you said. For instance, the pandemic, some
Speaker 1: people thrive, some people loved it. Some people were just traumatized,
Speaker 1: like you said. So I love that you explain this
Speaker 1: because I don't want people to feel ashamed. If anything,
Speaker 1: we all deal with things differently, So I love that.
Speaker 1: I want to also ask you, like, how do people
Speaker 1: know when to seek help?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I always think that being in reallyglationship is
Speaker 2: the best meaning, like being able to express how you
Speaker 2: feel and identify your emotions and being able to be
Speaker 2: getting validated is always important. So you don't have to
Speaker 2: wait until you're very traumatized for that. But one of
Speaker 2: the signs that we can see is if you're feeling
Speaker 2: triggered by things that happen in your life and you
Speaker 2: have like disproportionate reactions, if you are having recurrent nightmares,
Speaker 2: if you're having hyper arousals, if you're constantly paranoid at
Speaker 2: what's going on, if you're having the typical fight, slight
Speaker 2: or phrase response in your everyday life, and I can
Speaker 2: tell you more about that. If you are repeating a
Speaker 2: behavior over and over and over and you don't know
Speaker 2: where where's that coming from. It's like I know I'm
Speaker 2: doing this wrong, and I keep falling into it, and
Speaker 2: I keep doing it and I can get out of it.
Speaker 2: If you're having addictive behaviors, you know, addictions are invariably
Speaker 2: a response to a very traumatic event earlier in life.
Speaker 2: So all these things are signed of like traumatic ev
Speaker 2: and then you have to seek help.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you guys, you guys, hear that, okay, And
Speaker 1: I don't want anyone that is listening to feel like
Speaker 1: something is wrong with them, like they are broken. We
Speaker 1: all go through things, you guys. I have gone through
Speaker 1: a lot of things, and I think is just seeking help.
Speaker 1: And there's nothing wrong with asking for help, you guys.
Speaker 1: So just want to put that out there.
Speaker 2: In my book, I offer these five stages of how
Speaker 2: to get there, and the first stage is a radical acceptance.
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what you did during the pandemic. You
Speaker 2: went into that place of halls and say, Okay, let
Speaker 2: me look at the situation in the face. Let me
Speaker 2: be honest, like radically honest with myself. Let's put a
Speaker 2: name and identify what's going on with me, what's going
Speaker 2: on with my marriage, what's happening in my life this time,
Speaker 2: and let's call it for what it is. And that's
Speaker 2: when you really begin to do through this process of change,
Speaker 2: and that's when you're able to get that gift on
Speaker 2: the other side.
Speaker 1: You know, Yes, oh my goodness, thank God, thank God
Speaker 1: for you, for you and for you. What can you
Speaker 1: tell us, like what prevents people now that we're talking
Speaker 1: about healing, you know, and coming out on the other side,
Speaker 1: like what prevents people from healing?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great, great, great, great question. So block
Speaker 2: number one is thinking that trauma is a life sentence
Speaker 2: and thinking, Okay, oh yeah, I was sexually abused. That's
Speaker 2: it I'm doing. I'm miserable, my life is going to
Speaker 2: be the worst, that have no way out, not knowing
Speaker 2: that there are other possibilities. Another kind of blocking is
Speaker 2: when the context and the people around are continuing to oppress,
Speaker 2: you know, the person and not allowing that prefer that
Speaker 2: person to come out. For example, women that are experiencing
Speaker 2: domestic violence, if they live in a country which they're
Speaker 2: not even able to voice that to be validated for that,
Speaker 2: are they going to even begin to deal with trauma?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean? It's like they're in a
Speaker 2: country like, Okay, they have to be oppressed, they have
Speaker 2: to be abused, they are like not treated properly and
Speaker 2: not treated with the respect and the honor that it
Speaker 2: requires for another human being, you can even begin to
Speaker 2: heal from trauma. And that goes for collective trauma too. Chikis.
Speaker 2: For example, we go our countries, our Latin American countries
Speaker 2: that have been in different kinds of oppression, dictatorship, or colonization.
Speaker 2: How can we even begin to heal from those traumas
Speaker 2: as a collective right if we don't acknowledge that, if
Speaker 2: we don't realize it, if we don't put a name
Speaker 2: to it, if we don't identify and say, okay, this
Speaker 2: is what happened, this is exactly what's going on, and
Speaker 2: have that radical honesty. So there are a lot of variables. Also,
Speaker 2: of course there are personality traits, there are other systemic
Speaker 2: situations contacting or that influenced. But yeah, these are some
Speaker 2: of the things that really block the being able to
Speaker 2: or heal.
Speaker 1: Okay, and do you think, like, for instance, to take
Speaker 1: away all those exterior things. You know, the first step
Speaker 1: would be and I mean this is something I believe,
Speaker 1: but the first step would be accepting, accepting, Okay, this happened.
Speaker 1: What can I do? Correct?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? The first step is, you know, stop ruminating about it.
Speaker 2: You know how a lot of people, I mean, I
Speaker 2: used to do this. Also, It's like you stay in
Speaker 2: that thought and it keeps repeating, I'm not good, I'm
Speaker 2: not good. I mean, you know, this is horrible. The
Speaker 2: worst is going to happen. That kind of rumination is
Speaker 2: not helped people that tend to really look at the
Speaker 2: very very negative, hopeless, and that's part of the traumatic experience, right.
Speaker 2: So it's when you're able to put a stop for that,
Speaker 2: even if it's a pause, even because you're suffering so much.
Speaker 2: Usually this is when it happens that you're suffering so
Speaker 2: much and you're so uncomfortable and you're so like fed up,
Speaker 2: like you hear rock Bottom and you say, that's it,
Speaker 2: that's it. I have to do something different because I
Speaker 2: can't take it anymore. That's when people begin to change.
Speaker 2: That's when it's like it really touches something that says,
Speaker 2: I can't handle it anymore. I've been an addict, I've
Speaker 2: been drinking, I'm about to destroy all life. Or I've
Speaker 2: been treated badly my life. I need to change my
Speaker 2: lit or I you know, my relationships are going horrible
Speaker 2: from one to the worst to the worst. I need
Speaker 2: to do something about it. So that's when the change
Speaker 2: begins to happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's like saying, yeah, as the key, I'm
Speaker 1: not doing this anymore. I want to change, accepting it
Speaker 1: and seeking help you guys, and just really doing the work.
Speaker 2: Which is the second stage, the second stage of you
Speaker 2: know what I'm proposing is this seeking help, which I
Speaker 2: think you did amazingly. I mean that's unusual.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to really say, it's called safety protection. It's like, okay,
Speaker 2: I know what I have. Let me trust somebody. Usually
Speaker 2: it's a family member, Usually is a therapist, Usually is
Speaker 2: a guru, a group, an organization that you reach out
Speaker 2: and you say please, you know, I'm here, and you're
Speaker 2: being validated and you're being recognized. Like so, if you're
Speaker 2: twelve years old and you've sexually abused, it takes an
Speaker 2: adult that validates that experience and say, you know what,
Speaker 2: I understand what happened. I'm sorry it's happened to you.
Speaker 1: Let's get help.
Speaker 2: But there's that recognition, that acknowledgment that something is going on.
Speaker 2: Like when you're a Let's say you have an addiction. Yes,
Speaker 2: you have an addiction to shopping, you know, to the phone,
Speaker 2: you know, to pornography. Yes, okay, I have an addiction.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about it. Yes, I recognize it. The other
Speaker 2: person is recognizing for you. Let's do something about it.
Speaker 2: Then start looking for what are the appropriate ways to help?
Speaker 1: Yes? Absolutely, Oh my goodness, I'm loving this conversation. By
Speaker 1: the way, it's right up my alley is there. Do
Speaker 1: you have anything like type of exercises or ways that
Speaker 1: people can cope with it until they find the help
Speaker 1: and find a therapist, because I think that's the beautiful thing.
Speaker 1: You guys. All people that listen to me know that
Speaker 1: I'm a huge advocate for therapy and counseling and life
Speaker 1: coaching and all that stuff. And it's important to find
Speaker 1: someone that you connect with, you know, and like doctor
Speaker 1: Cherrol said, someone that's going to recognize and validate your feelings.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes that's all we need. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you're not crazy, it's okay, I know you're talking about
Speaker 1: let me help, you give us tools. But for someone
Speaker 1: that let's say, can't afford it or can't have it,
Speaker 1: hasn't found or can't find someone, what exercises or what
Speaker 1: can you tell them or tell us how to cope,
Speaker 1: how to you know, start the process.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so listen, the trauma what it does? It fragments
Speaker 2: and isolates it. Really, that's like a major thing that
Speaker 2: does why because we are in shame, we are humiliated,
Speaker 2: we are embarrassed, like oh my god, this happened to me.
Speaker 2: How am I even going to talk about it? I'm
Speaker 2: embarrassed even with my own self, like looking at myself
Speaker 2: in the mirror for what I'm doing or for I'm being.
Speaker 2: So it's very difficult to break free from that. That's
Speaker 2: why I'm saying, like healings for courageous people, like it
Speaker 2: takes a lot of courage to do this. And yes
Speaker 2: it's not always therapy. That could be the thing there,
Speaker 2: and not everybody has access to that, unfortunately not yet.
Speaker 2: Hopefully that will change. But you know, having a person
Speaker 2: a space that can be a safe space, a holding space.
Speaker 2: It's good enough. If you have a best friend that
Speaker 2: is willing to listen, not to judge, not to tell
Speaker 2: you what not to do, just to listen and to
Speaker 2: hold you. If you have a yoga teacher that is
Speaker 2: wise enough to really sit with you and identify these
Speaker 2: things and listen to you and give you emotional support.
Speaker 2: If you have a family member, if you have a
Speaker 2: group of people in your family, if you have a
Speaker 2: group of friends that you feel comfortable enough, if you
Speaker 2: have a religious organization that's say or spiritual, it doesn't
Speaker 2: really matter so much what the context is and who
Speaker 2: the person is, but it has to be a place
Speaker 2: that is safe.
Speaker 1: Yes, I agree. Feeling safe is so huge. You guys,
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about the book, just
Speaker 1: because I think it's a beautiful It's a beautiful gift
Speaker 1: in itself.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. I'm very, very very excited about
Speaker 2: it because it's been cooking there inside of me for
Speaker 2: all these years, and I finally, at some point, like
Speaker 2: three years ago, I was like, I have it right
Speaker 2: here in my throat and I need to get it out.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, thank goodness, Yeah, thank goodness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm very very happy, and people have been very
Speaker 2: receptive and very grateful for that. The first part of
Speaker 2: the book is more like defining what trauma is, what
Speaker 2: post traumatic growth is, the intergenerational transmission of trauma, collective trauma.
Speaker 2: I talk about it, be genetics. I talk about a
Speaker 2: few different things to clarify, you know, and topics that
Speaker 2: people ask me all the time. The second part of
Speaker 2: the book is the five stages. That it's very interesting
Speaker 2: because you can you can look at the book and see, like, Okay,
Speaker 2: which stage am I in right now? And there are
Speaker 2: a few exercises for each day each where you can
Speaker 2: be at the end of a book there's like a
Speaker 2: questionnaire like are you in post traumatic growth or not?
Speaker 2: So it's like a dynamic book in that sense, like
Speaker 2: you can open it at any page and say, Okay,
Speaker 2: let me see where I'm at with this, or let
Speaker 2: me look at you know, maybe this stage or the
Speaker 2: next stage, or how he loves it flow. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was going to tell you because I'm kind of
Speaker 1: that type of reader. I'm a skimmer and I like
Speaker 1: books like that where I could just be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: let me see where I open it, and that's what
Speaker 1: my soul needs in the moment exactly. So I love that.
Speaker 1: And can you share just a few, like what a
Speaker 1: few gifts of trauma with us without giving up too much?
Speaker 2: But no, but listen, I mean I think everybody that
Speaker 2: goes through their w own trauma and does the work
Speaker 2: of this process gets a gift, every single one. So
Speaker 2: every patient, every group, every community that I work with
Speaker 2: when they go through this experience. For example, I work
Speaker 2: with ninety eleven people, work with Cambodian refugees. I work
Speaker 2: with it and not remember in Miami surf site collapse
Speaker 2: when ninety eight people died. Yeah, So even in like
Speaker 2: little moments like that, for example, a lot of the
Speaker 2: survivors created a sort of a community and became a family,
Speaker 2: you know, and that was incredible to see. And it's
Speaker 2: been a year and a half and people still are
Speaker 2: connected in that way. So, yes, it's a tragedy. It's horrible.
Speaker 2: I don't wish it or anybody, but what comes out
Speaker 2: of it sometimes is like people have rearranged their lives.
Speaker 2: I had a couple that went through infidelity. This was
Speaker 2: during the pandemic, and they were desperate. You know. She
Speaker 2: was freaking out and saying, I can't believe this has
Speaker 2: happened to me. My life is destroyed. I don't believe
Speaker 2: in anything anymore. And I said, do you want to
Speaker 2: go through this process or do you want to separate?
Speaker 2: Because you can you know, like a lot of couples,
Speaker 2: you can just separate. And they said, you know what,
Speaker 2: We're willing to do the work. They actually worked really
Speaker 2: hard to get this marriage, and we went through very
Speaker 2: dark places with the two of them, and we looked
Speaker 2: at different things. There are four children were like also,
Speaker 2: you know, incredibly aware of all the changes that were
Speaker 2: happening in the in the marriage and at the end,
Speaker 2: towards the end of this process, and of course this
Speaker 2: is an ongoing situation. It's not like everything is perfect.
Speaker 2: But they were like, Wow, I have a new marriage.
Speaker 2: This is a new marriage because this person has changed.
Speaker 2: I have changed. I know him better, he knows me better.
Speaker 2: We have a different way of communicating, We understand what
Speaker 2: our priorities are, you know. So these are gifts that
Speaker 2: you get when you actually are willing to dive in
Speaker 2: and do this work. For some people, it's a spiritual awakening.
Speaker 2: And for some people it's like they find their life mission.
Speaker 2: That's why you see, for example, the mentor that was
Speaker 2: an alcoholic, but he went through so much a drug
Speaker 2: and alcohol, so now he mentors everybody else or somebody
Speaker 2: that had a really difficult childhood experience with parents. Then
Speaker 2: they become like the amazing you know, summer camp counselor
Speaker 2: that works with children and heals all the children.
Speaker 1: You know that these thing's happen, h No, absolutely, So
Speaker 1: basically it's something beautiful can come out of a traumatic
Speaker 1: experience and situation. Guys. So that's how I take it,
Speaker 1: and that's what I feel that I've tried my best
Speaker 1: to do in my life. Yes, I've gone through a
Speaker 1: lot of pain, but how am I going to turn
Speaker 1: that pain into power? So if you are going through
Speaker 1: something difficult, if you've lost a loved one or anything
Speaker 1: that we've talked about, I definitely recommend this book. I
Speaker 1: think it's it's beautiful. I'm so glad that you wrote
Speaker 1: it and it's out and ready for people to read, because,
Speaker 1: especially now, more than ever, we need the help. And
Speaker 1: I say we because I don't know what's going to
Speaker 1: happen tomorrow. You know what I mean. Everything could be
Speaker 1: okay right now, but life is a roller coaster of emotions.
Speaker 1: You have ups and you have downs, and you have
Speaker 1: to write it and know how to deal with it.
Speaker 1: Even if you're not going through something right now, I
Speaker 1: think the book would definitely help you. And it sounds
Speaker 1: a little cliche, Oh yeah, turn something into positive, But no, honestly,
Speaker 1: it's all in your mind. It's like not all in
Speaker 1: you around. But I'm saying like it's like for you
Speaker 1: to make the choice. I want to put in the work.
Speaker 1: Like the couple that you said you mentioned, they said, Okay,
Speaker 1: we are deciding to stay together despite what everyone else says,
Speaker 1: and we're willing to put in the work and look
Speaker 1: now they have a new marriage, and that's that's beautiful,
Speaker 1: it's wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm happy that you're saying choice, because it does
Speaker 2: take a choice, an attitude to confront these situations. I mean,
Speaker 2: I have an extreme example. I don't know if you've
Speaker 2: heard of Victor Franco. He was a psychiatrist from Vienna
Speaker 2: who was prosecuted in the war during the Second War,
Speaker 2: and he was in concentration camps and he after the war,
Speaker 2: he survived and he wrote this amazing book, The Man
Speaker 2: in Search for Meaning. I don't know if you know
Speaker 2: this book, yes, yeah, yeah, And he created he developed
Speaker 2: this theory of this whole movement, this whole approach called
Speaker 2: loco therapy. And he says, when I was in the
Speaker 2: worst of the worst, in the middle of the war,
Speaker 2: in those camps, I was between life and death. I
Speaker 2: was thinking how I was gonna get out of this war,
Speaker 2: and I was going to give talks and I was
Speaker 2: going to give conferences and teach people about meaning in life,
Speaker 2: and that of attitude. That change of attitude is what
Speaker 2: made a difference, because he said, you can get stripped
Speaker 2: of everything in life except one thing, except the willingness
Speaker 2: to choose how you're going to face the situation right.
Speaker 2: So not only that you get to have a purpose
Speaker 2: in life, but I think also one of the things
Speaker 2: that I see, Chik is that it's so beautiful is
Speaker 2: that you have a new appreciation for life. People that
Speaker 2: have gone through difficult things and then they come out
Speaker 2: of it, they begin to see life in a different way.
Speaker 2: They appreciate the nature more, they appreciate their friends more,
Speaker 2: they appreciate their family. So those are gifts that you
Speaker 2: get out of this trauma. Another thing that happens is
Speaker 2: that your relationships become more deep, more meaningful. You're not
Speaker 2: so much into that superficial sometimes wahing, but you get
Speaker 2: into like deep connections, deep connections with other people. Another
Speaker 2: thing that happens is that you're more ingratitude, Like you're
Speaker 2: very grateful for being alive, You're grateful for who you are.
Speaker 2: Realize that you have more strength so for the next
Speaker 2: situation that happens, So the next challenge that happens, it
Speaker 2: might be difficult too, but you have right but you know,
Speaker 2: I overcame this, I went through this, I can do
Speaker 2: this again.
Speaker 1: It makes you stronger.
Speaker 2: It makes you stronger, it makes you more resilient. Of course,
Speaker 2: it makes you say, I believe in myself because I
Speaker 2: was able to overcome this already and I know I
Speaker 2: grew from it. Another thing that happens is what I
Speaker 2: call this spiritual awakening, and that is an amazing thing.
Speaker 2: You know that. There's research cheek is going on that
Speaker 2: when people have gone through trauma and they connect spiritually more.
Speaker 2: And I don't mean religious, it's not like an organized religion,
Speaker 2: but it's more like you feel like you're connected to
Speaker 2: a bigger thing, to a higher being, too, interconnected with
Speaker 2: the universe, a higher power, to a higher power. There's
Speaker 2: even biologically, there's also an indication people have a thicker
Speaker 2: cerebral cortex. They develop even physically, something changes in your brain.
Speaker 2: And that thing is so amazing because it's imagined that
Speaker 2: a physical indication of your spiritual awakening. How powerful is that?
Speaker 2: Not only that, but also it actually is a protective
Speaker 2: factor against future trauma, against future challenges. So people that
Speaker 2: have developed this are already like having all these tools,
Speaker 2: these amazing tools that protect them for future challenges, for
Speaker 2: future and adversity and It's like, Wow, it wasn't that worth.
Speaker 2: It wasn't worth to go through this, ye know?
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. This is like confirmation for me that
Speaker 1: maybe this is why I'm such a spiritual person because
Speaker 1: I've gone through so much. And yes, like I always say, ah, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm a victim of child abuse. Yes I'm a victim
Speaker 1: of abandonment, and this has happened to me, But I
Speaker 1: don't feel sorry for myself. I'm not gonna victimize myself.
Speaker 1: I want to come out better and I'm like, how
Speaker 1: am I going to use this to help other people?
Speaker 1: And for me, I feel like that's become a mission
Speaker 1: in my life and it has connected. And I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm one of God's favorite or the universe or
Speaker 1: whatever you believe in. Like i feel like I'm one
Speaker 1: of the favorites because I'm like, Okay, I made it out,
Speaker 1: I'm here, I am and then I see the world
Speaker 1: in a different way and this is just like WHOA,
Speaker 1: I'm on the right track. I have at most almost.
Speaker 2: Movieing and it is amangan.
Speaker 1: Yes, I honestly feel like I'm gonna be okay. And
Speaker 1: and I feel like you said, I feel ready, I'm
Speaker 1: like not that I'm saying I want something to happen,
Speaker 1: but if something were to happen, I feel like I
Speaker 1: know how to deal with it. I'm like, okay, I'll
Speaker 1: be okay, you know what I mean. It gives me
Speaker 1: more hope. I don't know, it's just it's it's wonderful.
Speaker 1: It's wonderful. I love it.
Speaker 2: I love that you're sharing that chickis And can I
Speaker 2: tell you something else. One of the things that I've
Speaker 2: seen is that once you do this transformation in yourself,
Speaker 2: you are able to pass that on to the next generation.
Speaker 2: How amazing is that is that not only emotionally, not
Speaker 2: only like in your lifetime, but something happens in your
Speaker 2: body that registers all that all that changes, and even
Speaker 2: in your DNA that it gets registered. So then next
Speaker 2: generations are gonna carry on that transformation, are gonna carry
Speaker 2: on that growth and that wisdom that you have because
Speaker 2: in the same way that trauma gets transmitted from generation
Speaker 2: to generation. Right when we have our ancestors go through
Speaker 2: war and through killings and through violence, and we carry
Speaker 2: that and then we have that cycle of trauma. You know,
Speaker 2: if you were sexual abuse, your parents were and your
Speaker 2: mother was sexual abuse, and your grandmother was sexual abuse
Speaker 2: and your great grandmother, right, So it takes a lot
Speaker 2: to break that cycle. But also when you do that
Speaker 2: transformation and you have all those gifts, that also gets
Speaker 2: passed on into the next generation. So that's incredible that
Speaker 2: you, you know, think of it not just for yourself, but
Speaker 2: but for the people to come.
Speaker 1: You know, yes, absolutely, where I'm like, yes, i want,
Speaker 1: I'm here to break generational curses, and I want to
Speaker 1: learn the lessons so that we don't pass it on
Speaker 1: to my children and the children of my children, I see,
Speaker 1: so on and so forth. So absolutely, yes, I wanted
Speaker 1: to quickly share like a little story because you were
Speaker 1: saying about like how once you go through trauma you
Speaker 1: see life in a different way. Right, we were talking
Speaker 1: about that right now. And I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: her name, but I have I know someone who before
Speaker 1: she went through a very traumatic experience, she was out
Speaker 1: and drinking and having fun. She said, I'm young, I'm
Speaker 1: going to live my life, you know, Satano, And she
Speaker 1: got in a car with someone that was driving under
Speaker 1: the influence of alcohol. They crashed and she became paralyzed,
Speaker 1: and she of course it's it's it's a huge thing
Speaker 1: to go through, you know what I mean, but through
Speaker 1: her pain, and that's something I feel that someone she
Speaker 1: did it so beautifully that yeah, she was very sad
Speaker 1: for a while, and then she started reading books and
Speaker 1: she took therapy and went to a psychologist and now
Speaker 1: she's like, yeah, I don't have my legs, but I
Speaker 1: still have my eyesight and I can still speak. And
Speaker 1: she goes and she speaks to different people, and she
Speaker 1: changed that pain and that traumatic experience into something became
Speaker 1: her testimony almost I see, you know, part of like
Speaker 1: her testimony of going out and telling people, look, this
Speaker 1: is how I used to live my life. And then
Speaker 1: this happened. But now I'm even happier than I was before,
Speaker 1: which is I was like, whoa, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It taught me a lesson.
Speaker 2: So, yes, the pain is inevitable, but the suffering is
Speaker 2: a choice. You know. We go through pain, right, but
Speaker 2: suffering we can choose if you want to suffer or not.
Speaker 2: It's unfortunate, you know that we sometimes we have to
Speaker 2: learn and we have to grow from so much pain.
Speaker 2: You know. And one of my questions that I always have,
Speaker 2: is it possible to do that transformation without that accident.
Speaker 2: Is it possible to change our lives and to be
Speaker 2: in more gratitude and more wisdom and more awakening states
Speaker 2: and more consciousness without having to suffer so much?
Speaker 1: And that's something that she also mentioned, And that's somethings
Speaker 1: I feel life tells us, and it's telling us slow down,
Speaker 1: you know, change your life, and then we're kind of forced.
Speaker 1: And she she says that she had missed. She says,
Speaker 1: there were a lot of signs that were telling me
Speaker 1: to stop drinking. I knew what I was doing, and
Speaker 1: I didn't listen. So I think it's it's definitely possible.
Speaker 1: We just have to listen and be aware. You know.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask because, oh, because, yes, your
Speaker 1: book also talks about post traumatic growth. Correct.
Speaker 2: Yes. I always ask people, do you know what post
Speaker 2: traumatic stress is PTSD? Everybody's like, yeah, we know, everybody knows.
Speaker 2: When I say, do you know what PTG is, which
Speaker 2: is post traumatic growth, most people don't know. And that's
Speaker 2: why this book for me, is so exciting, because it's
Speaker 2: really bringing that concept into the world. And of course
Speaker 2: I didn't invent it. There was this very very intelligent,
Speaker 2: brilliant psychologist at the University of North Carolina that coined
Speaker 2: the term like twenty years ago, and it's post traumatic growth,
Speaker 2: which is really the positive changes that come after a difficult,
Speaker 2: challenging event and that brings on changes that bring on
Speaker 2: transformation in your life that is very meaningful.
Speaker 1: And how exactly is it achieved or is it more
Speaker 1: of like a longer conversation.
Speaker 2: Well, but that's why I was talking about these five
Speaker 2: stages that I really talk about in my book, and
Speaker 2: I say, you really want to achieve postraumatic growth, you
Speaker 2: go through these five stages. And by the way, these
Speaker 2: five stages, I didn't invent them. I'm more describing them
Speaker 2: because this is what I've seen people go over and
Speaker 2: over and over from the last twenty five years in
Speaker 2: my professional my research. This is what happens. People go
Speaker 2: into this radical acceptance stage, into this awareness, then we
Speaker 2: can go into awakening, then we go into new narratives,
Speaker 2: then we go into integration, and then we go into
Speaker 2: wisdom and growth, and that's where you get to postramatic growth.
Speaker 2: And these are not linear stages. You know, you can
Speaker 2: go there's circle, or you can go back, you can
Speaker 2: go forward, you can go up you can go down,
Speaker 2: but this is usually what happens. You can open the
Speaker 2: book and you say, oh, yes, I'm on stage three.
Speaker 2: I mean new narratives. This is what's happening to me.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm in stage four of integration. I'm already
Speaker 2: went through this tone. For example, you chick is your
Speaker 2: or in stage five? Great, you've been through that.
Speaker 3: Ye.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: I don't know how you are in your in your divorce,
Speaker 2: I don't know what stage you're in, but in your
Speaker 2: sexual abuse, you're definitely in your stage five.
Speaker 1: Awesome, stage five. So I came out of it, and
Speaker 1: I am grateful. I'm grateful honestly. Yeah, it was a tough,
Speaker 1: very tough moment for me, suspect those things I wanted
Speaker 1: to change about myself as well. It wasn't just him.
Speaker 1: Now I could see the things that I've done so
Speaker 1: or that I did. But I do have one last question,
Speaker 1: and quickly, I just so the people that are listening,
Speaker 1: do you have any tips for finding the right trauma
Speaker 1: therapist or psychologist?
Speaker 2: You know, finding a trauma therapist is like shopping. You
Speaker 2: have to try a few different ones before you connect
Speaker 2: to somebody. And the most important thing is that you
Speaker 2: feel safe. So any therapist, of course, you know, make
Speaker 2: sure that the person is licensed, that the person has
Speaker 2: so experience, not necessarily have to have the most experience.
Speaker 2: When people have thirty years, you know, the experience are
Speaker 2: not as good as some people that have. But it
Speaker 2: depends who the person is and who you connect with.
Speaker 2: But make sure that person has experience in working with
Speaker 2: trauma and that person makes you feel safe.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love that. I love that you say safe.
Speaker 1: That's that's a very important word. You guys, so so
Speaker 1: thank you so much, doctor Chiro andio, you guys, see
Speaker 1: what thank You're wonderful and you explain everything so beautifully.
Speaker 1: And you guys, can you know, go out and get
Speaker 1: her book, The Unexpected Gift of Trauma. Actually, where can
Speaker 1: we find you on social media? Doctor Hiro?
Speaker 2: Yes, so my book is The Unexpected Give of Trauma
Speaker 2: That Pass two Postraumatic Growth. You can find in Amazon,
Speaker 2: you can find in the Barnes and Noble, you can
Speaker 2: find in all the platforms, in Kindle, in audiobook, and
Speaker 2: of course you can find me at the Instagram, doctor
Speaker 2: redit Chiro, Facebook, the same doctor dit Shiro on my
Speaker 2: website www dot doctor Relihiro dot com or you can
Speaker 2: ask cheekysh she knows where to find me. Yes, I
Speaker 2: love that, you know. I would love to continue the
Speaker 2: conversation and hear from all of you what you think
Speaker 2: about this topic and where are you at with this Yes.
Speaker 1: And you guys know before we go, I do have
Speaker 1: a motivational quote for you, and the quote is if
Speaker 1: you have been brutally broken but still have the courage
Speaker 1: to be gentle to other living beings, then you're a
Speaker 1: badass with a heart of an angel.
Speaker 2: Get where I love that.
Speaker 1: Okay, I think it goes very well.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for this invitation. It was very
Speaker 2: very special, and thank you for sharing your experiences too.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Klen and I hope you guys all found
Speaker 1: this episode informative and learned from our guests. Add Chiro
Speaker 1: doctor did Hiro? Should I say? And We'll be back
Speaker 1: with another episode of Cheeky's and Chill on Monday. Do
Speaker 1: you need advice on love, relationships? Health emails? I'm so
Speaker 1: excited to share with you that my Cheeky's and Chill
Speaker 1: podcast will have an extra episode drop each week. I'll
Speaker 1: be answering all your questions.
Speaker 3: Just leave me a voice message Betterson Hard Monday. All
Speaker 3: you have to do is go to speak pipe dot com,
Speaker 3: slash Cheeky's and Chill podcast and record your questions.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear from you. This is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio and the MICA podcast Network. Follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram at michaela Podcasts and follow me Cheeky's That's
Speaker 1: c h i q u i s. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite podcast, and check us out
Speaker 1: on YouTube.