WEBVTT - #305 Jason Flom with Raymond Allan Warren 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.760 On July tenth, nineteen ninety four, sixteen year old Raymond 0:00:05.760 --> 0:00:08.479 Allen Warren and two friends were walking down Kilmer Street 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.719 in Dayton, Ohio. A car swerved up and the driver 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.400 asked them for drugs, but they were not drug dealers. 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:17.320 The trio continued on to one of the friend's houses 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.600 to fix a flat tire on Raymond's motorized scooter. They 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.320 heard gunshots in the distance behind them. After fixing the flat, 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.440 Raymond rode back to his grandmother's on Kilmer Street, where 0:00:27.440 --> 0:00:29.440 he saw that a car had crashed into one of 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:33.280 her neighbor's houses. The driver had been fatally shot a 0:00:33.400 --> 0:00:36.760 roll of counterfeit bills laid next to him. When questioned 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.120 by cops on the scene, Raymond told them about the 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.360 drug solicitation. He was then taken to the station to 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:45.720 give a statement. After submitting to a gunshot residue test, 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:48.880 he was released. The palm of his non dominant hand 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.440 tested positive for two elements associated with gunplay. According to 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.680 what was considered reliable science at the time, the presence 0:00:56.680 --> 0:00:59.120 of those elements could mean one of only three things 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:02.640 that Raymond had either fired a gun, handled ammunition, or 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.920 was the victim of gun violence. This gave police more 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:08.920 than enough confidence to coerce the two other children with 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.360 the threat of their own prosecution, to implicate their friend. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.080 The same strain of expert testimony presented at his trial 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:19.680 had been heard by countless juries for decades, at at 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:24.000 least a decade more thereafter, until some startling realizations about 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.480 the reliability of gunshot residue testing were finally made. This 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:43.399 is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Ronful Conviction today. We've 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.959 got a junk science case out of Ohio, gunshot residue 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:49.920 testing case to be exact, but with the information that 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.200 they had, many people, investigators in law enforcement included, probably 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.440 thought they had the right guy, not like some of 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:59.080 our other cases where there was still plenty of reasonable 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.120 doubt or even noted to the contrary. And our guest 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:04.960 was just a sixteen year old boy at the time, 0:02:05.480 --> 0:02:08.560 and he joins us now from a correctional facility in Ohio. 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.600 Raymond Alan Warren, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:13.160 Okay, thank you for having me. 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:15.680 I want to thank everyone there at the ron Convissions 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:16.480 the podcast. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:20.640 You're very welcome and joining Raymond today is his fierce 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:23.840 advocate that our listeners might remember from the Gunshot Residue 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.760 episode of Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, in which they actually 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:30.120 touched on Raymond's case while discussing the issue at large. 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.520 We're going to have that episode linked in our bio. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:35.840 I implore you to go and check it out. It's 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.720 an eye opener. She is the director of the Wrongful 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.720 Conviction Project at the office of the Ohio Public Defender. 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.200 Joanna Sanchez. Welcome to the show. 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:46.280 Thanks for having me. 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:49.760 You're welcome. All right. So, Raymond, you've been in prison 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:54.080 going on well, Jesus, I hate to even say this, 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:59.000 but you've been in prison for twelve years, longer now 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.079 than you were a lot before all of this happened. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.679 That's just nuts. But can you tell us a bit 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.760 about your first sixteen years of life before this tragedy. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:12.840 As you said, it was sixteen years old. 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:16.000 I primarily grew up in Dayton, Ohio, back and forth 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.079 from Kentucky as well. I have a lot of family 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.200 down there, and we were poor, and I had a 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:23.560 good childhood. I would say three younger brothers at the time. 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:24.840 I have five younger brothers now. 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.680 Yeah, And I understand you were really into like working 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:28.919 on cars and stuff like that. 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.079 I grew up basically tell you some part as a 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:32.919 kid and the older I got. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.560 I started working vehicles right before this incarceration. I maybe 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:38.520 like a year year and a half. I had learned 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:39.119 to paint. 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.200 Car, So that was something that I was doing on 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.600 a regular basis. I didn't even started to make a 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.200 little money at it, and I was probably considered probably 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:50.120 the neighborhood handy. Anybody that needed something done to their car, 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.880 I was there to do it, just a kid trying 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:54.000 to figure stuff out. 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.480 So it sounds like you had a lot of stuff, 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:58.800 you know, figured out go in the right direction anyway, 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.320 and you had a talent and a passion for something 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.920 that could have earned you a good living. So now 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.320 we get to the faithful day of July tenth, nineteen 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.000 ninety four, and there was a scooter you were working on. 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.000 Was it your scooter or did it belong to one 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:13.520 of your friends? 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:15.440 Well, the scooter belonged to me. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.480 I had a flat tire. It was at my grandmother's 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.599 house where I was staying. We had to take it 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:23.320 to Antonio's house, where we basically kept all the Tuesday 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:24.120 we'd accumulated. 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:26.800 Chante and Antonio had arrived that. 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:29.640 Evening to help me move it from my grandmother's house 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:30.840 to Antonio's house. 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:35.479 Efficient Me and Schante were basically pushing the scooter. He 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:37.600 was steering me, and I was looking. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.000 Up the back of the scooter because as I had 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.799 a flat you couldn't move it any other way. Antonio 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.280 was riding alongside of the street when the car pulled up. 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:47.320 Guying in the car asked us or someone in the 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:50.679 car asked us we had these drugs, I said. 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:52.039 But nothing happened and we don't got nothing. 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:56.159 Antonio said something I don't remember exactly what, cursing. 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.080 Him out, and they kept going. We continued along our 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:00.320 path to Antonio's house. 0:05:00.839 --> 0:05:04.400 We arrived at the corner of Kilmer in Lakeview when 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:05.440 we heard gunshots. 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:08.440 We immediately took off run up. We were pushing the 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.240 scooter and I was looking up the backup at me 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:10.760 and shot tey. 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.240 We're doing our best to bookie Alan to get to 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.760 Antonio's house. And when we arrived Antonio's house, we basically 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:19.599 dropped the scooter will after to realize was anybody shooting 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:20.680 at us, and realized. 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:23.760 It was safe he started working on the scooter. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:26.240 Right, and specifically you were fixing a flat tire. 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:28.560 The way that the scooter is made, you have to 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.560 take the brakes and the wheel off before you can 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.159 get to the action tire, as well as the muffler 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:35.320 off of the wheel wheel. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:37.480 It's not like tire like a car or something. It's 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.560 a lot different. You have to really take all everything 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:41.279 apart on the back of the scooter. 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:44.120 So yeah, we were absolutely working with the break opponents, 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.680 a muffler, everything that was attached to that whill. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.920 So at this point you have no idea what happened 0:05:49.960 --> 0:05:52.520 back there on Kilmer Street, but just that it was 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:56.160 smart to not be anywhere around it and you were 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.360 able to fix your flat. Now, before we get into 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:02.040 the specific of the crime itself, I want to turn 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.280 to Joanna. So, Johanna, one of the things that I 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:07.680 found fascinating about some of the issues that you and 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.840 Josh Dubin discussed on wrongful conviction junk science was that 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:18.360 things like cigarette ash, dried urine, and so many other substances, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.840 even household substances, can cause a false positive on a 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:26.200 gunshot residue or GSR test. Can you explain how that happens. 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:32.560 Sure, So GSR tests don't actually test for a unique 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.760 substance known as gunshot residue. What they're really testing for 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.799 are elements that are known to be present in gunshot residue. 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:43.799 And the test using Raymond's case was an atomic absorption test. 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:47.280 It's not really used anymore because it has limited utility, 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:51.480 but it was testing for two elements, barium and antimony, 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:55.680 and those two elements exist in our atmosphere. They're found 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:01.360 in things like fireworks, matches, some types of batteries, lubricating greases, 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:05.920 and particularly relevant here in brake pad dust. So if 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:10.560 somebody's had contact with any of those substances, they potentially 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:14.120 could test positive for barium and antimony and give a 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.640 false positive on a gunshot residue test. 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.040 Right, So, as Raymond just said and his friends confirmed, 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:24.520 so it's undisputed that they had fixed a flat that night, 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.560 handled the brake pads and other components. But we haven't 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.920 even gotten to why all of this matters yet. So 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.239 it turns out that this guy, Wendall Simpson was driving 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.160 around Kilmer Street that night, and there may or may 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.920 not have been a gold Buick either following him or 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:43.000 just cruising the area. Now it's believed that the gunshots 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.600 heard earlier by Raymond and his friends had killed this guy, 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.680 Wendall Simpson. His body was found in the front seat 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.280 of his car, which had crashed into a house five 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.840 point twenty nine Kilmer Street, just up the block from 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.680 Raymond's grandmother's house. There was a crowbar on the floor 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.040 as well as a role of counterfeit bills encircled by 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.559 two reel dollars bills on the front seat. Three shelves 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.920 were also recovered from the scene, one on the right 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.080 rear floorboard, one on the right side of the driver's seat, 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:11.440 and another new left front tire. And it appears that 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.160 there were some witnesses or perhaps even potential suspects for 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:15.760 this crime. 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:19.240 So there are two young men who are there at 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:23.360 the scene as well, Andre Wright and Stanley Williams, and 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:26.040 what they indicate to the police is that they saw 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.560 Wendell Simpson's car crashed into the house on Kilmer Street, 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.320 and so they pull their car up and park across 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.240 the street. They're driving a gold Buick and what they 0:08:36.280 --> 0:08:40.160 indicate is that they went to mister simpsons car multiple times, 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:42.920 first to put it in park then to turn off 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.000 the engine, and they planned to leave the scene, but 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.280 the police got there before they could, and so they 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:50.920 tell the police of this story. They tell them that 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.240 they are just in the neighborhood kind of cruising around 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.920 that night. The police take them to the station, but 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.920 they don't fingerprint them, they don't test them for gunsho 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.880 a residue, and then they just let them go. 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:07.400 Now, we're not trying to implicate other potentially innocent people here, 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.920 of course not. But that interaction is at the very 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:16.080 least remarkable considering what happened to Raymond, who at this 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.520 time had just fixed the flat tire, went to a 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:21.280 nearby gas station and was heading back to grandma's house 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:22.160 on Kilmer Street. 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:23.160 When I arrived at. 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:25.560 My grandmother's house, there was some kind of commotion at 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:28.520 the top of the block, and there were police and 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:31.560 fire trucks and all kinds of stuff out there. A 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.360 detective approached me while I was putting the school on 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:37.000 my grandmother's porch and asked me had I seen anything. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:38.960 I didn't really know what he was talking about. He 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.439 asked me about the street. See what he was he 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:44.280 was talking about. So I walked with him with the 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.640 scooter up the street. He asked me if I had 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:52.200 seen the vehicle and I said, I don't know. I'm sure, 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.440 I said a vehicle did drive by us. We were 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.680 walking to Atonus. He asked me what was what was 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.480 I going? I just want to visit my switter, And 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:03.439 he asked me if I would go downtown with him 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.240 and give further detail about where I was who. 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:06.480 I was with. 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:09.520 So I didn't mind, I don't care. So being that 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.400 I do to help, I absolutely could. They handcuff me 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:15.000 and placed me in a back or police card. 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.760 So, Okay, you were trying to help, right, and you 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.559 had already explained where you had been. But maybe it 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:25.640 was that you potentially had contact with this vehicle before 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.160 the shooting. So at this point you didn't know that 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.120 you had any reason to be scared. But the handcuff 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.840 certainly could have been some kind of indication. So now 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.840 they take you down to the station. How did that go? 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:38.920 When you got there? 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:41.560 It took me to a room, It took the handcuffs 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.080 off of me, and I was in there for quite 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.839 some time. The light was turned off and I started 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:47.640 to nod off on the table a little bit when 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.719 a detective came in the room and started asking me questions. 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.520 At first it was, you know, just ask me questions 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:55.880 about who I was with, where I was. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:57.160 Had I seen the vehicle? 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.360 And like I said, I wasn't for sure that I 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.560 had seen that particular vehicle. But I told him about 0:11:01.559 --> 0:11:05.120 the vehicle that had approached, told him about my friends 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:06.880 that I was with and Tony on shot today as 0:11:06.920 --> 0:11:09.800 well as he going to fish the scooter anything was 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:10.320 wrong with it. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:12.880 So scay his story. I told exactly where I was 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:13.640 at and who I was with. 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.280 He voluntarily waives his rights, He agrees to give a statement, 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:19.559 and he agrees to this gunshot residue test. 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.240 Why not, I haven't done anything wrong, had fired gun? 0:11:22.360 --> 0:11:22.520 Yet? 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:24.120 Gave gun test right? 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.360 Since, after all, you hadn't fired a gun, you had 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.920 every reason to be confident that you wouldn't test positive 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.400 because nobody, I mean, let's not forget no one at 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.360 the time understood that these tests could easily result in 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:40.160 false positives. So that night, Raymond was released to his 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:44.840 grandma and went home thinking, probably thinking he was safe. 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.720 So the gunshot residue test comes back and they detect 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:54.040 antimony and bury him on the palm of Raymond's right hand. 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:56.120 It's not on the back of his right hand. It's 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.000 not anywhere on his left hand. It's just on the palm. 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.480 Raymond is left handed, so it's on his non dominant 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:04.480 hand that they find these two elements. 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:06.840 This is what's weird about this. So it was only 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.520 on the palm, not on the backside, where you might 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.520 expect it more likely to be. I mean, you can 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:17.080 just hold your hand up and mimic a firing motion 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:19.640 and you'll see what I'm talking about. And on the 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:20.880 non dominant hand. 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.680 You would expect it to be on his dominant hand. 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.199 And the fact that it's not, I think is indicative 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:30.280 that it's contamination, either from the brake pads or potentially 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.040 because he is handcuffed, he's in a police cruiser, he's 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.520 taken down to the police station, he's in the interrogation room. 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:41.000 Those are all surfaces that we know are contaminated with 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.040 gunshot resdue. 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.880 So not only had he been working with brake pads 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:51.040 that night, there was also a tremendous amount of opportunities 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:55.160 for touch transfer, which is why it is widely accepted 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:59.800 now that GSR testing or more specifically, the atomic absorption 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:03.800 test that was used in this case is almost entirely meaningless. 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.360 In fact, the only reasonable use it has is in 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:10.120 the scenario where the suspect hasn't had the opportunity to 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:15.840 vigorously wash their hands. Then are tested and the absence 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.200 of the elements associated with gun use could be exculpatory, 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.040 as we've pointed out before on this show, very different 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.920 than it being used as in an inculpatory manner as 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.720 it was here. That's what we know now. But back then, 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:35.160 with this positive GSR test, Raymond's fate was I hate 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.280 to say it, but it was pretty much sealed at 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:37.880 that time. 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:41.920 They believe that antimony and barium are very unique to 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:46.240 gunshot residue, So if somebody tests positive for those elements, 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.000 the belief is that it means they fired a weapon, 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.600 they were a victim of a shooting, or the handled ammunition. 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.720 So those results were in and the police are like, WHOA, 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.040 we've got our guy here. So you had mentioned Antonio 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:00.480 and Chante and statement. 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.400 So the police go to Antonio's home a few weeks 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.520 after the shooting, multiple police cards, multiple police officers, and 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.160 they pull up on Antonio he's in his front yard 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:12.360 and they say, we want to take you down to 0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.600 the police station to talk to you about this crime. 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.520 He asks to go tell his parents they're in the house, 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:19.920 and the police won't let him. So this fourteen year 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.400 old boys being escorted to the police station. His parents 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.440 don't know about it. He gets there, he asks to 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.160 call his mom. They say no, and what they tell 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.640 him is that we'll let you go home once you 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.040 make a statement. And so they interview him for a 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.040 lengthy period of time. It appears without recording it. All 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.320 we have is a recording of the last five to 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.840 ten minutes of his statement. And what Antonio testifies to 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:49.000 at various points during the proceedings, including in Raymond's juvenile proceedings, 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:52.520 is that the police told him they were looking to 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.960 put this crime on him if he didn't implicate Raymond. 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:58.960 And so what he did was he gave a statement. 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:03.000 In the record statement, you can tell that it's practiced. 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.640 He seems like he's reading a script. At one point, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:08.960 he stops and he's in this little room. He's clearly 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.160 at least two police officers there. One is sitting right 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.920 up against him. They're very close to one another, and 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.880 Antonio is sort of running quickly through what happened this night, 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:19.920 and at one point stops and looks to somebody off 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:21.240 Cameron says, oh, I messed up. 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.760 As we was walking back going back home, this guy 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:26.440 had pulled up Alan's right behind us. 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.360 Before he left Allen's house, he drank a pop. 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:33.640 So it appears that he's talked to them for a 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.440 lengthy period of time, and then it was told, you know, 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:40.320 to give this very short statement implicating Raymond. 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:43.160 Yeah, and no one really picked up on this flub. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.920 That illustrates that he was just repeating the story that 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.960 they had developed. He had been coerced into doing so 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.800 by the threat of his own wrongful prosecution. And Shante 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.320 was faced with the same call it what it is, 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:56.920 it's Sophie's choice. 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.920 Yeah, Shante. They come to his house one morning, it's 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.960 six thirty in the morning. He's sleeping. He'd gone to 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:05.480 bed late the night before, so he's not on much rest. 0:16:05.840 --> 0:16:08.160 They take him to the police station and they tell 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.040 him the same thing where they'd say, you know, we're 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:11.800 looking to talk to you about a murder we think 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:15.200 you might have been involved in. And so ultimately what happens, 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.040 is Schante. It's the police actually write out a statement, 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.040 and that's the statement that Chante signs. He doesn't write 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.280 it himself. It's not a recorded statement. It's a handwritten 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:26.640 statement made by one of the police officers that he. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:32.400 Signs, and essentially that statement corroborated Antonio's statement. Both were 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.640 towing the line for this police narrative, which was that 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.080 while this is the narrative they were putting forth, was 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.960 that while on the way to Antonio's house, this encounter 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.320 with the victim happened. He asked for drugs Antoni. When 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:48.840 Chante kept walking, Raymond allegedly went into an alley with 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.200 the victim, who tried to pay with the counterfeit role 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:56.600 and Raymond allegedly shot him for it. Raymond allegedly then 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:02.000 admitted this to Antonio and Johntay. So when were you 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.360 arrested and were you able to bond out? 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.040 August the Knife nineteen ninety four. 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.919 I was taken in juvenile custom and juvenile gusty. 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.159 You don't have a bond or anything. 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.520 Like that, which is backwards as hell, and. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:20.119 Even once bound over to the adult courts on the 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.919 bond that they gave me as I said we were 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:25.360 still for and wasn't. 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:25.879 Able to pay it. 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.639 And it wasn't until these proceedings in which they magically 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.600 decided that a sixteen year old was an adult. Right, 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.479 That always blows my mind. Yeah, they just decided that 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:38.520 its sixteen year old was an adult for the purpose 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.000 of inflicting, you know, much more terrifying and harsh punishment. 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.760 And that was when you, for the first time, you 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.720 found out that your friends had even said these things. 0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:51.840 Shante wasn't part of that process, but Antonio was. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:54.520 He came to court and made. 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.240 Some statements that literally like only why are they telling 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:57.680 these lies? 0:17:57.760 --> 0:17:59.880 I didn't have opportunity to speak with him. 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.719 I'm sitting there life, like I say, on the balance 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.960 of people making false statments, I really don't know. 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:06.520 What to do. 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:22.360 This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company. 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.200 AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.000 a positive difference in the lives of its employees and 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.720 in the communities where we work and live. In light 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:34.560 of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.639 in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice, reform. 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.679 The AIG pro bono program provides free legal services and 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:55.200 other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. So now you're 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.720 set to be tried as an adult. I mean you're 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.720 a child and a very adult, very real nightmare. It's 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.280 March tenth, nineteen ninety five. You were assigned two public 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:08.280 defenders from the Montgomery County Public Defender's Office. 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:12.000 The States case really was these three pieces of evidence, 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:17.560 the alleged gunshot residue, Antonio's testimony, and Shante's testimony. What's 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.960 interesting is Antonio and Shante actually didn't show up the 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.639 day they were supposed to testify. They were supposed to 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.080 come down to court. They were subpoena and they didn't come. 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:29.600 So the next day the police actually go out and 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:31.760 they arrest them, and they bring them down to the 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:35.040 court and they hold them in jail. And so their 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.600 understanding is you can go home ones you testify. So 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.560 the two of them testify against Raymond, and the story 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.880 that they give is that they went to his house. 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.600 They've got his scooter. They start going down Kilmer Street 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:51.240 toward Antonio's home. Mister Simpson approaches them in his car 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.080 and he's looking for drugs, and then Shante and Antonio 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:58.080 continue on to Antonio's house, but Raymond goes into the 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.600 alley with mister Simpson. They say they then hear shots, 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:04.240 and then Raymond comes up to Antonio's house and says, 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.119 I had to shoot the guy because he gave me 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:10.040 fake money. Antonio and Chante both also testified that they 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.280 saw Raymond with a gun the day before the shooting. 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:16.280 What's interesting also is that Chante, when he's testifying, he 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:19.639 actually initially does not testify to seeing Raymond with a 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:24.000 gun or testify to him confessing. He only remembers those 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.280 facts after the police show him the handwritten statement that 0:20:27.280 --> 0:20:28.120