1
00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,760
Speaker 1: On July tenth, nineteen ninety four, sixteen year old Raymond

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:08,479
Speaker 1: Allen Warren and two friends were walking down Kilmer Street

3
00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,719
Speaker 1: in Dayton, Ohio. A car swerved up and the driver

4
00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,400
Speaker 1: asked them for drugs, but they were not drug dealers.

5
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,320
Speaker 1: The trio continued on to one of the friend's houses

6
00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,600
Speaker 1: to fix a flat tire on Raymond's motorized scooter. They

7
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: heard gunshots in the distance behind them. After fixing the flat,

8
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,440
Speaker 1: Raymond rode back to his grandmother's on Kilmer Street, where

9
00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,440
Speaker 1: he saw that a car had crashed into one of

10
00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,280
Speaker 1: her neighbor's houses. The driver had been fatally shot a

11
00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,760
Speaker 1: roll of counterfeit bills laid next to him. When questioned

12
00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,120
Speaker 1: by cops on the scene, Raymond told them about the

13
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 1: drug solicitation. He was then taken to the station to

14
00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,720
Speaker 1: give a statement. After submitting to a gunshot residue test,

15
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,880
Speaker 1: he was released. The palm of his non dominant hand

16
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 1: tested positive for two elements associated with gunplay. According to

17
00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,680
Speaker 1: what was considered reliable science at the time, the presence

18
00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,120
Speaker 1: of those elements could mean one of only three things

19
00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,640
Speaker 1: that Raymond had either fired a gun, handled ammunition, or

20
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,920
Speaker 1: was the victim of gun violence. This gave police more

21
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,920
Speaker 1: than enough confidence to coerce the two other children with

22
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,360
Speaker 1: the threat of their own prosecution, to implicate their friend.

23
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,080
Speaker 1: The same strain of expert testimony presented at his trial

24
00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,680
Speaker 1: had been heard by countless juries for decades, at at

25
00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,000
Speaker 1: least a decade more thereafter, until some startling realizations about

26
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,480
Speaker 1: the reliability of gunshot residue testing were finally made. This

27
00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:43,399
Speaker 1: is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Ronful Conviction today. We've

28
00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,959
Speaker 1: got a junk science case out of Ohio, gunshot residue

29
00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,920
Speaker 1: testing case to be exact, but with the information that

30
00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,200
Speaker 1: they had, many people, investigators in law enforcement included, probably

31
00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 1: thought they had the right guy, not like some of

32
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 1: our other cases where there was still plenty of reasonable

33
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,120
Speaker 1: doubt or even noted to the contrary. And our guest

34
00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 1: was just a sixteen year old boy at the time,

35
00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,560
Speaker 1: and he joins us now from a correctional facility in Ohio.

36
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,600
Speaker 1: Raymond Alan Warren, Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

37
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for having me.

38
00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,680
Speaker 3: I want to thank everyone there at the ron Convissions

39
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 3: the podcast.

40
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,640
Speaker 1: You're very welcome and joining Raymond today is his fierce

41
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,840
Speaker 1: advocate that our listeners might remember from the Gunshot Residue

42
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,760
Speaker 1: episode of Wrongful Conviction Junk Science, in which they actually

43
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 1: touched on Raymond's case while discussing the issue at large.

44
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,520
Speaker 1: We're going to have that episode linked in our bio.

45
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,840
Speaker 1: I implore you to go and check it out. It's

46
00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,720
Speaker 1: an eye opener. She is the director of the Wrongful

47
00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,720
Speaker 1: Conviction Project at the office of the Ohio Public Defender.

48
00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,200
Speaker 1: Joanna Sanchez. Welcome to the show.

49
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

50
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,760
Speaker 1: You're welcome. All right. So, Raymond, you've been in prison

51
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,080
Speaker 1: going on well, Jesus, I hate to even say this,

52
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 1: but you've been in prison for twelve years, longer now

53
00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,079
Speaker 1: than you were a lot before all of this happened.

54
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,679
Speaker 1: That's just nuts. But can you tell us a bit

55
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,760
Speaker 1: about your first sixteen years of life before this tragedy.

56
00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:12,840
Speaker 2: As you said, it was sixteen years old.

57
00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:16,000
Speaker 3: I primarily grew up in Dayton, Ohio, back and forth

58
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,079
Speaker 3: from Kentucky as well. I have a lot of family

59
00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,200
Speaker 3: down there, and we were poor, and I had a

60
00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,560
Speaker 3: good childhood. I would say three younger brothers at the time.

61
00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 3: I have five younger brothers now.

62
00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I understand you were really into like working

63
00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:28,919
Speaker 1: on cars and stuff like that.

64
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,079
Speaker 3: I grew up basically tell you some part as a

65
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,919
Speaker 3: kid and the older I got.

66
00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,560
Speaker 2: I started working vehicles right before this incarceration. I maybe

67
00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 2: like a year year and a half. I had learned

68
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:39,119
Speaker 2: to paint.

69
00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 3: Car, So that was something that I was doing on

70
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 3: a regular basis. I didn't even started to make a

71
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,200
Speaker 3: little money at it, and I was probably considered probably

72
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 3: the neighborhood handy. Anybody that needed something done to their car,

73
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 3: I was there to do it, just a kid trying

74
00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,000
Speaker 3: to figure stuff out.

75
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,480
Speaker 1: So it sounds like you had a lot of stuff,

76
00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 1: you know, figured out go in the right direction anyway,

77
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,320
Speaker 1: and you had a talent and a passion for something

78
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,920
Speaker 1: that could have earned you a good living. So now

79
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: we get to the faithful day of July tenth, nineteen

80
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,000
Speaker 1: ninety four, and there was a scooter you were working on.

81
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,000
Speaker 1: Was it your scooter or did it belong to one

82
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 1: of your friends?

83
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 2: Well, the scooter belonged to me.

84
00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,480
Speaker 3: I had a flat tire. It was at my grandmother's

85
00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,599
Speaker 3: house where I was staying. We had to take it

86
00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,320
Speaker 3: to Antonio's house, where we basically kept all the Tuesday

87
00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:24,120
Speaker 3: we'd accumulated.

88
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,800
Speaker 2: Chante and Antonio had arrived that.

89
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,640
Speaker 3: Evening to help me move it from my grandmother's house

90
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,840
Speaker 3: to Antonio's house.

91
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,479
Speaker 2: Efficient Me and Schante were basically pushing the scooter. He

92
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,600
Speaker 2: was steering me, and I was looking.

93
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,000
Speaker 3: Up the back of the scooter because as I had

94
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,799
Speaker 3: a flat you couldn't move it any other way. Antonio

95
00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,280
Speaker 3: was riding alongside of the street when the car pulled up.

96
00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:47,320
Speaker 3: Guying in the car asked us or someone in the

97
00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,679
Speaker 3: car asked us we had these drugs, I said.

98
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:52,039
Speaker 2: But nothing happened and we don't got nothing.

99
00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:56,159
Speaker 3: Antonio said something I don't remember exactly what, cursing.

100
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,080
Speaker 2: Him out, and they kept going. We continued along our

101
00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,320
Speaker 2: path to Antonio's house.

102
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,400
Speaker 3: We arrived at the corner of Kilmer in Lakeview when

103
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:05,440
Speaker 3: we heard gunshots.

104
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,440
Speaker 2: We immediately took off run up. We were pushing the

105
00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 2: scooter and I was looking up the backup at me

106
00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:10,760
Speaker 2: and shot tey.

107
00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:13,240
Speaker 3: We're doing our best to bookie Alan to get to

108
00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,760
Speaker 3: Antonio's house. And when we arrived Antonio's house, we basically

109
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,599
Speaker 3: dropped the scooter will after to realize was anybody shooting

110
00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:20,680
Speaker 3: at us, and realized.

111
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 2: It was safe he started working on the scooter.

112
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 1: Right, and specifically you were fixing a flat tire.

113
00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 3: The way that the scooter is made, you have to

114
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,560
Speaker 3: take the brakes and the wheel off before you can

115
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,159
Speaker 3: get to the action tire, as well as the muffler

116
00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:35,320
Speaker 3: off of the wheel wheel.

117
00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,480
Speaker 2: It's not like tire like a car or something. It's

118
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 2: a lot different. You have to really take all everything

119
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,279
Speaker 2: apart on the back of the scooter.

120
00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,120
Speaker 3: So yeah, we were absolutely working with the break opponents,

121
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 3: a muffler, everything that was attached to that whill.

122
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,920
Speaker 1: So at this point you have no idea what happened

123
00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,520
Speaker 1: back there on Kilmer Street, but just that it was

124
00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,160
Speaker 1: smart to not be anywhere around it and you were

125
00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,360
Speaker 1: able to fix your flat. Now, before we get into

126
00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,040
Speaker 1: the specific of the crime itself, I want to turn

127
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,280
Speaker 1: to Joanna. So, Johanna, one of the things that I

128
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 1: found fascinating about some of the issues that you and

129
00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,840
Speaker 1: Josh Dubin discussed on wrongful conviction junk science was that

130
00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:18,360
Speaker 1: things like cigarette ash, dried urine, and so many other substances,

131
00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,840
Speaker 1: even household substances, can cause a false positive on a

132
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 1: gunshot residue or GSR test. Can you explain how that happens.

133
00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:32,560
Speaker 4: Sure, So GSR tests don't actually test for a unique

134
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,760
Speaker 4: substance known as gunshot residue. What they're really testing for

135
00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,799
Speaker 4: are elements that are known to be present in gunshot residue.

136
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,799
Speaker 4: And the test using Raymond's case was an atomic absorption test.

137
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,280
Speaker 4: It's not really used anymore because it has limited utility,

138
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,480
Speaker 4: but it was testing for two elements, barium and antimony,

139
00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 4: and those two elements exist in our atmosphere. They're found

140
00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:01,360
Speaker 4: in things like fireworks, matches, some types of batteries, lubricating greases,

141
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,920
Speaker 4: and particularly relevant here in brake pad dust. So if

142
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 4: somebody's had contact with any of those substances, they potentially

143
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,120
Speaker 4: could test positive for barium and antimony and give a

144
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,640
Speaker 4: false positive on a gunshot residue test.

145
00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,040
Speaker 1: Right, So, as Raymond just said and his friends confirmed,

146
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,520
Speaker 1: so it's undisputed that they had fixed a flat that night,

147
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,560
Speaker 1: handled the brake pads and other components. But we haven't

148
00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 1: even gotten to why all of this matters yet. So

149
00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,239
Speaker 1: it turns out that this guy, Wendall Simpson was driving

150
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 1: around Kilmer Street that night, and there may or may

151
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,920
Speaker 1: not have been a gold Buick either following him or

152
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 1: just cruising the area. Now it's believed that the gunshots

153
00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:45,600
Speaker 1: heard earlier by Raymond and his friends had killed this guy,

154
00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 1: Wendall Simpson. His body was found in the front seat

155
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,280
Speaker 1: of his car, which had crashed into a house five

156
00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 1: point twenty nine Kilmer Street, just up the block from

157
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,680
Speaker 1: Raymond's grandmother's house. There was a crowbar on the floor

158
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 1: as well as a role of counterfeit bills encircled by

159
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,559
Speaker 1: two reel dollars bills on the front seat. Three shelves

160
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,920
Speaker 1: were also recovered from the scene, one on the right

161
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 1: rear floorboard, one on the right side of the driver's seat,

162
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,440
Speaker 1: and another new left front tire. And it appears that

163
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,160
Speaker 1: there were some witnesses or perhaps even potential suspects for

164
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:15,760
Speaker 1: this crime.

165
00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 4: So there are two young men who are there at

166
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,360
Speaker 4: the scene as well, Andre Wright and Stanley Williams, and

167
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 4: what they indicate to the police is that they saw

168
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 4: Wendell Simpson's car crashed into the house on Kilmer Street,

169
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,320
Speaker 4: and so they pull their car up and park across

170
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,240
Speaker 4: the street. They're driving a gold Buick and what they

171
00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 4: indicate is that they went to mister simpsons car multiple times,

172
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,920
Speaker 4: first to put it in park then to turn off

173
00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,000
Speaker 4: the engine, and they planned to leave the scene, but

174
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,280
Speaker 4: the police got there before they could, and so they

175
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:50,920
Speaker 4: tell the police of this story. They tell them that

176
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,240
Speaker 4: they are just in the neighborhood kind of cruising around

177
00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,920
Speaker 4: that night. The police take them to the station, but

178
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,920
Speaker 4: they don't fingerprint them, they don't test them for gunsho

179
00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,880
Speaker 4: a residue, and then they just let them go.

180
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,400
Speaker 1: Now, we're not trying to implicate other potentially innocent people here,

181
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,920
Speaker 1: of course not. But that interaction is at the very

182
00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:16,080
Speaker 1: least remarkable considering what happened to Raymond, who at this

183
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 1: time had just fixed the flat tire, went to a

184
00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,280
Speaker 1: nearby gas station and was heading back to grandma's house

185
00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:22,160
Speaker 1: on Kilmer Street.

186
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:23,160
Speaker 2: When I arrived at.

187
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,560
Speaker 3: My grandmother's house, there was some kind of commotion at

188
00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 3: the top of the block, and there were police and

189
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,560
Speaker 3: fire trucks and all kinds of stuff out there. A

190
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 3: detective approached me while I was putting the school on

191
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 3: my grandmother's porch and asked me had I seen anything.

192
00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,960
Speaker 3: I didn't really know what he was talking about. He

193
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,439
Speaker 3: asked me about the street. See what he was he

194
00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 3: was talking about. So I walked with him with the

195
00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 3: scooter up the street. He asked me if I had

196
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,200
Speaker 3: seen the vehicle and I said, I don't know. I'm sure,

197
00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,440
Speaker 3: I said a vehicle did drive by us. We were

198
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,680
Speaker 3: walking to Atonus. He asked me what was what was

199
00:09:57,679 --> 00:10:01,480
Speaker 3: I going? I just want to visit my switter, And

200
00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,439
Speaker 3: he asked me if I would go downtown with him

201
00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 3: and give further detail about where I was who.

202
00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:06,480
Speaker 2: I was with.

203
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,520
Speaker 3: So I didn't mind, I don't care. So being that

204
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,400
Speaker 3: I do to help, I absolutely could. They handcuff me

205
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,000
Speaker 3: and placed me in a back or police card.

206
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,760
Speaker 1: So, Okay, you were trying to help, right, and you

207
00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,559
Speaker 1: had already explained where you had been. But maybe it

208
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 1: was that you potentially had contact with this vehicle before

209
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 1: the shooting. So at this point you didn't know that

210
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,120
Speaker 1: you had any reason to be scared. But the handcuff

211
00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:34,840
Speaker 1: certainly could have been some kind of indication. So now

212
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:37,840
Speaker 1: they take you down to the station. How did that go?

213
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 1: When you got there?

214
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,560
Speaker 3: It took me to a room, It took the handcuffs

215
00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,080
Speaker 3: off of me, and I was in there for quite

216
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,839
Speaker 3: some time. The light was turned off and I started

217
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 3: to nod off on the table a little bit when

218
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,719
Speaker 3: a detective came in the room and started asking me questions.

219
00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 3: At first it was, you know, just ask me questions

220
00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,880
Speaker 3: about who I was with, where I was.

221
00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:57,160
Speaker 2: Had I seen the vehicle?

222
00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,360
Speaker 3: And like I said, I wasn't for sure that I

223
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 3: had seen that particular vehicle. But I told him about

224
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 3: the vehicle that had approached, told him about my friends

225
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:06,880
Speaker 3: that I was with and Tony on shot today as

226
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,800
Speaker 3: well as he going to fish the scooter anything was

227
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:10,320
Speaker 3: wrong with it.

228
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,880
Speaker 2: So scay his story. I told exactly where I was

229
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 2: at and who I was with.

230
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 4: He voluntarily waives his rights, He agrees to give a statement,

231
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,559
Speaker 4: and he agrees to this gunshot residue test.

232
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 2: Why not, I haven't done anything wrong, had fired gun?

233
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 3: Yet?

234
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,120
Speaker 2: Gave gun test right?

235
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,360
Speaker 1: Since, after all, you hadn't fired a gun, you had

236
00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,920
Speaker 1: every reason to be confident that you wouldn't test positive

237
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 1: because nobody, I mean, let's not forget no one at

238
00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,360
Speaker 1: the time understood that these tests could easily result in

239
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:40,160
Speaker 1: false positives. So that night, Raymond was released to his

240
00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:44,840
Speaker 1: grandma and went home thinking, probably thinking he was safe.

241
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,720
Speaker 4: So the gunshot residue test comes back and they detect

242
00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:54,040
Speaker 4: antimony and bury him on the palm of Raymond's right hand.

243
00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,120
Speaker 4: It's not on the back of his right hand. It's

244
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,000
Speaker 4: not anywhere on his left hand. It's just on the palm.

245
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 4: Raymond is left handed, so it's on his non dominant

246
00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,480
Speaker 4: hand that they find these two elements.

247
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:06,840
Speaker 1: This is what's weird about this. So it was only

248
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 1: on the palm, not on the backside, where you might

249
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,520
Speaker 1: expect it more likely to be. I mean, you can

250
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 1: just hold your hand up and mimic a firing motion

251
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,640
Speaker 1: and you'll see what I'm talking about. And on the

252
00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:20,880
Speaker 1: non dominant hand.

253
00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,680
Speaker 4: You would expect it to be on his dominant hand.

254
00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,199
Speaker 4: And the fact that it's not, I think is indicative

255
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,280
Speaker 4: that it's contamination, either from the brake pads or potentially

256
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,040
Speaker 4: because he is handcuffed, he's in a police cruiser, he's

257
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,520
Speaker 4: taken down to the police station, he's in the interrogation room.

258
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,000
Speaker 4: Those are all surfaces that we know are contaminated with

259
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 4: gunshot resdue.

260
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,880
Speaker 1: So not only had he been working with brake pads

261
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:51,040
Speaker 1: that night, there was also a tremendous amount of opportunities

262
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,160
Speaker 1: for touch transfer, which is why it is widely accepted

263
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: now that GSR testing or more specifically, the atomic absorption

264
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 1: test that was used in this case is almost entirely meaningless.

265
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 1: In fact, the only reasonable use it has is in

266
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,120
Speaker 1: the scenario where the suspect hasn't had the opportunity to

267
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,840
Speaker 1: vigorously wash their hands. Then are tested and the absence

268
00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,200
Speaker 1: of the elements associated with gun use could be exculpatory,

269
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 1: as we've pointed out before on this show, very different

270
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,920
Speaker 1: than it being used as in an inculpatory manner as

271
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:29,720
Speaker 1: it was here. That's what we know now. But back then,

272
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 1: with this positive GSR test, Raymond's fate was I hate

273
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 1: to say it, but it was pretty much sealed at

274
00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 1: that time.

275
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,920
Speaker 4: They believe that antimony and barium are very unique to

276
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,240
Speaker 4: gunshot residue, So if somebody tests positive for those elements,

277
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,000
Speaker 4: the belief is that it means they fired a weapon,

278
00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,600
Speaker 4: they were a victim of a shooting, or the handled ammunition.

279
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 1: So those results were in and the police are like, WHOA,

280
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 1: we've got our guy here. So you had mentioned Antonio

281
00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:00,480
Speaker 1: and Chante and statement.

282
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,400
Speaker 4: So the police go to Antonio's home a few weeks

283
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,520
Speaker 4: after the shooting, multiple police cards, multiple police officers, and

284
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,160
Speaker 4: they pull up on Antonio he's in his front yard

285
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,360
Speaker 4: and they say, we want to take you down to

286
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,600
Speaker 4: the police station to talk to you about this crime.

287
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,520
Speaker 4: He asks to go tell his parents they're in the house,

288
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,920
Speaker 4: and the police won't let him. So this fourteen year

289
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,400
Speaker 4: old boys being escorted to the police station. His parents

290
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,440
Speaker 4: don't know about it. He gets there, he asks to

291
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,160
Speaker 4: call his mom. They say no, and what they tell

292
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,640
Speaker 4: him is that we'll let you go home once you

293
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,040
Speaker 4: make a statement. And so they interview him for a

294
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,040
Speaker 4: lengthy period of time. It appears without recording it. All

295
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,320
Speaker 4: we have is a recording of the last five to

296
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,840
Speaker 4: ten minutes of his statement. And what Antonio testifies to

297
00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:49,000
Speaker 4: at various points during the proceedings, including in Raymond's juvenile proceedings,

298
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,520
Speaker 4: is that the police told him they were looking to

299
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 4: put this crime on him if he didn't implicate Raymond.

300
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 4: And so what he did was he gave a statement.

301
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,000
Speaker 4: In the record statement, you can tell that it's practiced.

302
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,640
Speaker 4: He seems like he's reading a script. At one point,

303
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,960
Speaker 4: he stops and he's in this little room. He's clearly

304
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 4: at least two police officers there. One is sitting right

305
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,920
Speaker 4: up against him. They're very close to one another, and

306
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:17,880
Speaker 4: Antonio is sort of running quickly through what happened this night,

307
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:19,920
Speaker 4: and at one point stops and looks to somebody off

308
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 4: Cameron says, oh, I messed up.

309
00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,760
Speaker 3: As we was walking back going back home, this guy

310
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,440
Speaker 3: had pulled up Alan's right behind us.

311
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,360
Speaker 1: Before he left Allen's house, he drank a pop.

312
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,640
Speaker 4: So it appears that he's talked to them for a

313
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,440
Speaker 4: lengthy period of time, and then it was told, you know,

314
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,320
Speaker 4: to give this very short statement implicating Raymond.

315
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and no one really picked up on this flub.

316
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 1: That illustrates that he was just repeating the story that

317
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,960
Speaker 1: they had developed. He had been coerced into doing so

318
00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 1: by the threat of his own wrongful prosecution. And Shante

319
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,320
Speaker 1: was faced with the same call it what it is,

320
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 1: it's Sophie's choice.

321
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, Shante. They come to his house one morning, it's

322
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 4: six thirty in the morning. He's sleeping. He'd gone to

323
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,480
Speaker 4: bed late the night before, so he's not on much rest.

324
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,160
Speaker 4: They take him to the police station and they tell

325
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 4: him the same thing where they'd say, you know, we're

326
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,800
Speaker 4: looking to talk to you about a murder we think

327
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,200
Speaker 4: you might have been involved in. And so ultimately what happens,

328
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 4: is Schante. It's the police actually write out a statement,

329
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,040
Speaker 4: and that's the statement that Chante signs. He doesn't write

330
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,280
Speaker 4: it himself. It's not a recorded statement. It's a handwritten

331
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,640
Speaker 4: statement made by one of the police officers that he.

332
00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:32,400
Speaker 1: Signs, and essentially that statement corroborated Antonio's statement. Both were

333
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,640
Speaker 1: towing the line for this police narrative, which was that

334
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,080
Speaker 1: while this is the narrative they were putting forth, was

335
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 1: that while on the way to Antonio's house, this encounter

336
00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,320
Speaker 1: with the victim happened. He asked for drugs Antoni. When

337
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 1: Chante kept walking, Raymond allegedly went into an alley with

338
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 1: the victim, who tried to pay with the counterfeit role

339
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:56,600
Speaker 1: and Raymond allegedly shot him for it. Raymond allegedly then

340
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:02,000
Speaker 1: admitted this to Antonio and Johntay. So when were you

341
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,360
Speaker 1: arrested and were you able to bond out?

342
00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 2: August the Knife nineteen ninety four.

343
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,919
Speaker 3: I was taken in juvenile custom and juvenile gusty.

344
00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,159
Speaker 2: You don't have a bond or anything.

345
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 1: Like that, which is backwards as hell, and.

346
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,119
Speaker 3: Even once bound over to the adult courts on the

347
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,919
Speaker 3: bond that they gave me as I said we were

348
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,360
Speaker 3: still for and wasn't.

349
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:25,879
Speaker 2: Able to pay it.

350
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,639
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until these proceedings in which they magically

351
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 1: decided that a sixteen year old was an adult. Right,

352
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,479
Speaker 1: That always blows my mind. Yeah, they just decided that

353
00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,520
Speaker 1: its sixteen year old was an adult for the purpose

354
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,000
Speaker 1: of inflicting, you know, much more terrifying and harsh punishment.

355
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 1: And that was when you, for the first time, you

356
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,720
Speaker 1: found out that your friends had even said these things.

357
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 3: Shante wasn't part of that process, but Antonio was.

358
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 2: He came to court and made.

359
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 3: Some statements that literally like only why are they telling

360
00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:57,680
Speaker 3: these lies?

361
00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,880
Speaker 2: I didn't have opportunity to speak with him.

362
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,719
Speaker 3: I'm sitting there life, like I say, on the balance

363
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 3: of people making false statments, I really don't know.

364
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 2: What to do.

365
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,360
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company.

366
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,200
Speaker 1: AIG is committed to corporate social responsibility and is making

367
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,000
Speaker 1: a positive difference in the lives of its employees and

368
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,720
Speaker 1: in the communities where we work and live. In light

369
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,560
Speaker 1: of the compelling need for pro bono legal assistance, and

370
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,639
Speaker 1: in recognition of AIG's commitment to criminal and social justice, reform.

371
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:42,679
Speaker 1: The AIG pro bono program provides free legal services and

372
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:55,200
Speaker 1: other support to underrepresented communities and individuals. So now you're

373
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,720
Speaker 1: set to be tried as an adult. I mean you're

374
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,720
Speaker 1: a child and a very adult, very real nightmare. It's

375
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,280
Speaker 1: March tenth, nineteen ninety five. You were assigned two public

376
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: defenders from the Montgomery County Public Defender's Office.

377
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 4: The States case really was these three pieces of evidence,

378
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:17,560
Speaker 4: the alleged gunshot residue, Antonio's testimony, and Shante's testimony. What's

379
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 4: interesting is Antonio and Shante actually didn't show up the

380
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,639
Speaker 4: day they were supposed to testify. They were supposed to

381
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 4: come down to court. They were subpoena and they didn't come.

382
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 4: So the next day the police actually go out and

383
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 4: they arrest them, and they bring them down to the

384
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 4: court and they hold them in jail. And so their

385
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 4: understanding is you can go home ones you testify. So

386
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 4: the two of them testify against Raymond, and the story

387
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,880
Speaker 4: that they give is that they went to his house.

388
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 4: They've got his scooter. They start going down Kilmer Street

389
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 4: toward Antonio's home. Mister Simpson approaches them in his car

390
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,080
Speaker 4: and he's looking for drugs, and then Shante and Antonio

391
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 4: continue on to Antonio's house, but Raymond goes into the

392
00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 4: alley with mister Simpson. They say they then hear shots,

393
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 4: and then Raymond comes up to Antonio's house and says,

394
00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 4: I had to shoot the guy because he gave me

395
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 4: fake money. Antonio and Chante both also testified that they

396
00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 4: saw Raymond with a gun the day before the shooting.

397
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 4: What's interesting also is that Chante, when he's testifying, he

398
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 4: actually initially does not testify to seeing Raymond with a

399
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 4: gun or testify to him confessing. He only remembers those

400
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 4: facts after the police show him the handwritten statement that

401
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,120
Speaker 4: they wrote, and he.

402
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 1: Signed, right, And it's hard to remember lies, especially when

403
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 1: you weren't even the one that initially wrote them. So

404
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,040
Speaker 1: they have these statements from the two kids that would

405
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,840
Speaker 1: have and should have been his alibi witnesses. By the way,

406
00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 1: both of them have since recanted on the record, right,

407
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,800
Speaker 1: But that hasn't really done anything for Raymond thus far.

408
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 1: He's still right where he is. But back at trial,

409
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 1: the defense did present two witnesses that shed a lot

410
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 1: of doubt on the state's case.

411
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 4: So there were two people who lived in the neighborhood

412
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 4: nearby John and Patricia Morland, and the defense called them,

413
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,600
Speaker 4: and Patricia testified to she was kind of walking around

414
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:09,439
Speaker 4: the neighborhood at this time. She'd gone to her friend's

415
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 4: house to get her hair done and then was coming home,

416
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 4: and so she testified to seeing mister Simpson in his

417
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 4: car kind of rolling around the block a few times.

418
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 4: Her husband, John testified that he was in his home

419
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 4: he heard the crash, so he goes outside to check

420
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 4: it out, and at that point he sees the gold

421
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 4: buick driven by Andre Wright and Stanley Williams, and to him,

422
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 4: it looked like the buick had potentially been following mister

423
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 4: Simpson's car. So he sees the buick come around and

424
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 4: turn around and park across the street. And what mister

425
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 4: Morland says is he actually sees three people come out

426
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 4: of the buick. These three men get out of the

427
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 4: gold Buick, that they go back and forth between their

428
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 4: car and mister Simpson's car several times. And then when

429
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 4: the police arrived, one of these three men has disappeared,

430
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 4: and so now there's only two men left at the scene.

431
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: Again, we're not saying that these individuals are guilty, but

432
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 1: they were not ruled out by GSR testing. At the

433
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: very least, they should have been more interesting to the

434
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 1: authorities than Raymond was to the police at that time. Plus,

435
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,119
Speaker 1: the Morlands did not mention seeing Raymond come and go

436
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 1: from the scene while they had watched these three men.

437
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 1: But now here goes the quote unquote expert testimony that

438
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 1: sounded very official, And this had law enforcement, the prosecutor's office,

439
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,920
Speaker 1: and everybody believing or at least putting forth the narrative

440
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: that Raymond was the actual guy.

441
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 4: So the gunshot residue analyst testified that he found barriam

442
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 4: and antimony on Raymond's non dominant hand and that it

443
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,919
Speaker 4: meant one of those three things that he either shot

444
00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 4: a firearm, was a victim of a shooting, or handled

445
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 4: contaminated ammunition.

446
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I was sitting there listening to this like

447
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 3: Dudy's lyon, there's no way. At the same time, I

448
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 3: don't have anything to come bad, is you know?

449
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 2: I like it?

450
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: Depending on as my lawyers at the time, they didn't.

451
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 2: Know what the break pass and working.

452
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 3: With vehicles and motor oil and other things like that

453
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 3: be something that would cause these readings.

454
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 4: I mean, the jury is they're hearing from two children

455
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 4: who are saying, my friend did this. They're hearing from

456
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 4: this scientific evidence, you know, back in nineteen ninety five.

457
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 4: This sounds like real science, and they're being told it

458
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 4: could only be one of these three things, and two

459
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 4: of those things are inculpatory, like the idea that he

460
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 4: handled ammunition or fired a gun. Both of those things

461
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 4: aren't good and certainly he wasn't a victim of a shooting.

462
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 4: So the jury's left with very little to go on.

463
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 4: But it's they believe Chantay and Antonio, and they believe

464
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 4: the science.

465
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: At that point, did you hold out any hope that

466
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: the jury was going to get it right?

467
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 3: I thought that as jury would see the video tape

468
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 3: Antonio did, and though, like I say that he's being

469
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 3: forced to say certain things, I thought that.

470
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 2: The truth would come out.

471
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 3: I really didn't think like I would be sitting here now.

472
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: I didn't. Verdy did come back. I was dumb.

473
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 3: Fount two of the jury remembers cried and said certain

474
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 3: things that it's like they were kind of bulling into

475
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 3: the verdict themselves.

476
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: So I was I was still kind of dumb. Found

477
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: during the whole process, Like for a couple of years.

478
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 2: I literally said and waited like every time.

479
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 3: Like the door would open, like I was waiting on

480
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 3: to come get it. Tell like they made a mistake.

481
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 2: Just as as as we discussed, I was a bound

482
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: over as an adult, and back then they didn't.

483
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 3: Have a juvenile like blocks or anything like that for

484
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 3: individuals who were under anything. So I was thrown right

485
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 3: into the the jungles don't to speak.

486
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 2: At eleven nine Correctional Institution.

487
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,359
Speaker 3: As a kid, I was prayed up on, you know,

488
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 3: sexually harassed by both inmates and.

489
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 2: Guardens of life. Definitely was an updial battle.

490
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: And it still tings to be the battle, and it

491
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 3: has not been easy. And in the very beginning it was.

492
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,120
Speaker 2: Man, it was a fight for my life every day,

493
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 2: like it was.

494
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 3: Really, like I said, just trying to maneuberant, stay out

495
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: of harm's way. One of the things that I've tried

496
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 3: to make sure that I've done is to educate myself

497
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: and stay prepare for what.

498
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 2: These daughters do. I can require my degree, my.

499
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 3: Totorist certification, and I'm also in college now. I've trying

500
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 3: to stay busy with education as well as physical activities,

501
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 3: working out things like that, just staying busy with a job,

502
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 3: as well as staying active in my own legal process,

503
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 3: reading the documents and things like that that my legal

504
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 3: team sends me make sure that I'm abreast of.

505
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 2: The things that are being done.

506
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,120
Speaker 4: So Raymond is convicted in nineteen ninety five. He has

507
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 4: a direct appeal that's unsuccessful, and from that point forward

508
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 4: he's really on his own, and so he's making every

509
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 4: effort he can to find an attorney to help him

510
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 4: challenge his conviction, which is incredibly difficult. He has no money,

511
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 4: he's incarcerated, and he's by that point seventeen years old.

512
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 4: So he and his brothers scrape together a little money

513
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 4: and are able to hire an attorney. And this is

514
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 4: around nineteen ninety nine. That attorney actually goes out and

515
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 4: he gets a recantation from Chante Hunt. So Shantai Hunt says,

516
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 4: this didn't happen the way I said a trial. The

517
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 4: police terrified me. I was a kid, and I thought

518
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 4: that they were going to charge me with a murder

519
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 4: if I didn't implicate Raymond. What really happened is exactly

520
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 4: what Raymond said, which is, you know, we are approached

521
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 4: by mister Simpson. We said no, we don't have drugs,

522
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 4: and then all three of us go to Antonio's house.

523
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 4: We are all together when we hear the shots, and

524
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 4: so he's saying Raymond could not have done this because

525
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 4: he was with me when we heard the shots. My

526
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 4: testimony was a lie. So Raymond has that affidavit now,

527
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 4: but at this point he's run out of money, and

528
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 4: so this attorney doesn't file it for him because he

529
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 4: can no longer afford to pay him. So then Raymond

530
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 4: he's trying to get a new attorney. He's writing probably

531
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 4: over the years, hundreds and hundreds of letters. In the

532
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 4: next fifteen years or so, Raymond works with a number

533
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 4: of attorneys. He every once in a while was able

534
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 4: to scrape together enough money to hire someone. In the

535
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 4: mid two thousands, he did that and somebody filed an

536
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 4: unsuccessful procedural motion. He's out there still trying to get

537
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 4: Antonio and see if he's willing to recant that. Antonio

538
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 4: is really hard to find. He's changed his last name,

539
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 4: he's incarcerated for a period of time. So it's not

540
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 4: until two thousand and eight that Antonio comes forward and

541
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 4: also recants his testimony.

542
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 3: Well, I was very fortunate enough to run into a

543
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 3: guy who was going home who knew Antonio, and I

544
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 3: was also in contact with the project and they were

545
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 3: helping me as well. They were investigating my case. I

546
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: related information to do how as this project, and they

547
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 3: were able to attain an affidavit of truth from Antonio

548
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 3: Johnson boss.

549
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 4: And he says the same thing, which is, I was

550
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 4: a scared kid. My testimony was not true. I thought

551
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 4: they were going to charge me with this murder and

552
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 4: I didn't come forward sooner because I was scared I

553
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 4: would be charged with perjury. So Raymond now has both

554
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 4: of these affidavits, and it's really a series of mishaps

555
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 4: at that point. He's got one organization that's working for him,

556
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 4: but then they lose his file and sort of don't

557
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 4: do anything on the case for a while. They then

558
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 4: find it and sort of reopen his case and then

559
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,479
Speaker 4: close it. So he's, you know, he thinks something's going

560
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 4: to happen, and then it doesn't. They then referred his

561
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 4: case to another attorney who basically ignores him, you know,

562
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 4: And she would later tell us that she handled this

563
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 4: worse than any other matter in her career.

564
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: It really does take a village. So he's had Chante's

565
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: AFFI David since nineteen ninety nine, and almost ten years

566
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: went by before he caught up with Antonio. The clock

567
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: is ticking on all of this newly discovered evidence and

568
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: all of these attorneys that Raymond simply doesn't have the

569
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: means to maintain. This just screws him over even more

570
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: than the system already has, which is hard to believe

571
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: or even imagine. But is that accurate.

572
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 2: That's definitely the most accurate. And I have not been

573
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: a that good at learning the law. I'm not an attorney,

574
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: don't play one on TV.

575
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hear that I'm not either, Raymond. A lot

576
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: of people think I am, but I'm definitely not alert.

577
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: I'm not even a college graduate. But anyway, it's not

578
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: exactly like you had the benefit of having gone to

579
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: law school. So the nightmare continued.

580
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: It was literally a nightmare at the time.

581
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 3: I really didn't know what to do with So it

582
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: was just trying to understand the legal process and really

583
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: put together something on my own and get it fouled myself,

584
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: which I eventually did.

585
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: I fouled motion for trial.

586
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 4: So twenty thirteen, Raymond fouled his motion. At the time,

587
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 4: there was actually an unwritten rule, but a rule that

588
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: a lot of the courts had adopted that once a

589
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 4: person discovers new evidence, they have an obligation to present

590
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 4: it to the court within a reasonable period of time.

591
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 4: And so when Raymond filed his motion in twenty thirteen,

592
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 4: because he had had the affidavits for several years at

593
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 4: that point and hadn't filed them, which the reason he

594
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 4: hadn't filed was because he was thinking he was having

595
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 4: all these attorneys who were going to do it for him,

596
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 4: who ultimately did not. But the court determined that by

597
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: the time he did file them in twenty thirteen, he

598
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 4: was out of time, that like an unreasonable amount of

599
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 4: time had passed, and so they denied his motion as untimely.

600
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: And the term unreasonable seems like a like a conveniently

601
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: flexible term, but it seems like if a person's freedom

602
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: is at stake and they're presenting the truth, I mean,

603
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: any amount of time should be within reason.

604
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 4: That's right. There's really not at that time a lot

605
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 4: of guidance on what is a reasonable period of time.

606
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 4: So there's cases where five years is determined to be

607
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 4: reasonable in cases where four months is determined to be unreasonable.

608
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 4: So it's really hard to judge what will be deemed

609
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: timely or untimely.

610
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you have these guys Antonio and Chante coming

611
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: forward to their own peril and detriment, admitting to perjury,

612
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 1: which carries a five to ten year sentence in Ohio,

613
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: I believe. And yet they're going to go ahead talk

614
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: about the authorities and tell an innocent man, Yeah, but

615
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: you know nothing to see here. Too bad for you.

616
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: An unreasonable amount of time has passed. Now had he

617
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: also supported those recantations with the evolving science on GSR?

618
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: Or was that not until you all got involved in

619
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen.

620
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 4: When Raymond initially filed his pro se emotion, he doesn't

621
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 4: know about the gunshot resid to evidence. He doesn't have

622
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 4: an understanding of this evolving science, so his motion was

623
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 4: focused just on these two recantations. We stepped in for

624
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 4: the appeal, and we actually were successful on appeal in

625
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 4: the sense that we were allowed to go back to

626
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 4: the trial court because the trial court had not let

627
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 4: Raymond file a reply once the state opposed his motion,

628
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 4: so we were sent back down to the trial court

629
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 4: to give us the opportunity to reply, and at that point,

630
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 4: now he has us as counsel, we asked to amend

631
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 4: his initial motion, and so with that amendment we added

632
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 4: in information about gunshot residue. And what had happened in

633
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 4: the years since his conviction is that the scientific community

634
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 4: had really started to study gunshot residue evidence, and the

635
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 4: FBI held a massive symposium in two thousand and five

636
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 4: where they looked at all sorts of studies regarding contamination

637
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 4: and alternative sources for these two elements, such as brake pads,

638
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 4: and they came up with a lot of best practices

639
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 4: things that should be done to make the results more reliable.

640
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 4: But the big takeaway from the symposium was that really

641
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 4: the probative value of gunshot residue is negligible if there's

642
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 4: any at all, because it's so transferable, there's so much

643
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 4: risk for contamination. The results of a gunshot residue a

644
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 4: positive TESTERSON is truly meaningless. And as a result of

645
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 4: that symposium, a lot of labs actually stopped doing gunshot

646
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 4: residue testing altogether. So we amended Raymond's motion to include

647
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 4: all of that information in addition to Antonio and Chante's recantations,

648
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 4: and we also included a lot of information about why

649
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 4: it took Raymond so long to present this evidence to

650
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 4: the court. And so we went through and we got

651
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 4: affidavits from a lot of the attorneys that had represented him,

652
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 4: and we included a lot of information about what this

653
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 4: delay was and what the reason was was that he

654
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 4: was relying on counsel. So we presented all of that

655
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 4: to the trial court. His motion was denied again.

656
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: And again they ruled the delay in presenting this new

657
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: evidence was unreasonable.

658
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 4: So at that point we appealed again, and the appellate

659
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 4: court reversed again, and what they said was that the

660
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 4: trial court should have had hearing on Raymond's motion. So

661
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 4: we go back to the trial court. At that point,

662
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 4: we have a multiple day evidentiary hearing, and the focus

663
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 4: of this hearing is actually not on the new evidence.

664
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 4: This hearing is entirely focused on whether Raymond filed this

665
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,240
Speaker 4: evidence within a reasonable period of time.

666
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: Right, seemingly based on an arbitrary opinion, not on any

667
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: concrete metric. So never mind that all of this has

668
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: to do with these lawyers and Raymond's inability to financially

669
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: maintain counsel. That's not a good enough reason, so he's

670
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: denied again.

671
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,359
Speaker 4: At that point, we appealed again, and this time we

672
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 4: lost the appeal. So we appealed to the Ohio Supreme

673
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 4: Court and they declined to take jurisdiction over Raymond's case.

674
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 4: So at that point we had lost that issue. What's

675
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 4: notable is about two years after that denial, in the

676
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 4: Haja Supreme Court, in a different case, the court actually

677
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 4: ruled that this reasonable time filing requirement was not anywhere

678
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 4: in any rule or statue, and that courts shouldn't be

679
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 4: applying it to defendants when they discover new evidence.

680
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: And that was that was in March of the this year.

681
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: As we're recording twenty twenty two, and typical of our system,

682
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to go out on a limb and say

683
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 1: that they will not be reconsidering cases that have already

684
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: been decided, even if only several months had passed since

685
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: that ruling. You know, this reminds me of how they

686
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: sometimes make laws or change laws, but don't change them

687
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: retroactively to correct all the injustice that has come before,

688
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: which would seem like a no brainer, right, They just

689
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: do it going forward. So it's like, how'd you like

690
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: to be the last person convicted under an old law

691
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 1: that now the government has said is not a correct law.

692
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: It's not even a legal sentence anymore. And yet there

693
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: you stay. It doesn't make any sense. It's one of

694
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: the most maddening things to me about our system. But anyway,

695
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: another crazy thing to realize is that you all picked

696
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: up his case in twenty fourteen, and in eight years

697
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: we've only resolved the question that the courts didn't want

698
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: to hear his claims of innocence because of an arbitrary

699
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: time a yeah, mind you. No court has ever heard

700
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: the merits of his claims of innocence, which, as you've

701
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: heard here today, are extremely powerful. And this is the

702
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: American appellate system in action. Unfortunately, they haven't even heard

703
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 1: the evidence.

704
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: They let care about the evidence. That's something they care about.

705
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 3: They all care about, Like I said, the fact that's

706
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 3: it's too long a file.

707
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 4: That's right. Due to these procedural barriers and the time

708
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 4: limitations on filing motions, over these years, no court has

709
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 4: ever spent the time to look at these affidavits, to

710
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 4: look at the gunshot reside evidence and to actually determine

711
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 4: whether it points to Raymond's innocence. And so we've spent

712
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,719
Speaker 4: all of this time, all of these resources, all of

713
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 4: these years of litigation, really just focusing our energy on

714
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 4: this timing question instead of what I think is the

715
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 4: much more important question, which is do we have an

716
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 4: innocent man who's been sitting there in prison for the

717
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 4: last twenty seven years.

718
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: He needs really two brain cells to rub together, and

719
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: you could see this, right, So where do we go

720
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:02,959
Speaker 1: from here?

721
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 4: What we're working on right now is we filed an

722
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 4: application for DNA testing last year in the trial court

723
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 4: and there was three shell casings found at the scene,

724
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 4: two in mister Simpson's car, one just outside of the

725
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 4: driver's side door, and so we asked for touch DNA

726
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 4: testing on those shell casings. If that information came back

727
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 4: and excluded Raymond as the source of the DNA on

728
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 4: those shellcasings, or even a step further pointed to a

729
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 4: known individual as the source of the DNA, when you

730
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 4: couple that information with Antonio and Schante's recantations and what

731
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 4: we now know about gunshot residue, it'd be very compelling

732
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 4: evidence of Raymond's innocence, and so we've asked for that

733
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 4: DNA testing. Our application was denied, and so what we're

734
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 4: doing right now is we're appealing that denial. The other

735
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 4: thing is that Raymond is up for parole early next year,

736
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 4: and he's been up for parole multiple times. He's always

737
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,959
Speaker 4: maintained his innocence before the parole born and he's always

738
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 4: been denied or continue and youwed for several more years.

739
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 4: But our hope is that now that he's done twenty

740
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 4: seven years in prison, that he will be released on

741
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 4: parole and can continue fighting for his innocence from the outside.

742
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And unfortunately, maddeningly, parole boards almost always demanded a

743
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: mission of guilt, which Raymond of course has not done,

744
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: even though he's been eligible now for almost ten years

745
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, and he has no plan of changing that.

746
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: And as an innocent man, neither he nor any other

747
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: innocent person should have this crazy condition right to admit

748
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,160
Speaker 1: guilt to a crime they didn't commit. Are there any

749
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: other avenues other than where you've found denial so far?

750
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 4: The other notable thing right now in Ohio is that

751
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 4: over the last couple of years, the Ohio Supreme Court

752
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 4: convened a task forced to study wrongful convictions and post

753
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 4: conviction review and they were looking at a lot of

754
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 4: different factors. How do we prevent wrongful convictions? You know,

755
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 4: how do we better train police attorneys prosecutors. But one

756
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 4: big aspect of the task force was how do we

757
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 4: change our court rules and laws to ensure that there

758
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 4: is a pathway to relief for innocent people, people like

759
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 4: Raymond who have the evidence, but they're running into procedural barriers,

760
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 4: running into timelines. And the result of that task forces

761
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 4: work were several recommendations to amend court rules and to

762
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 4: amend legislation. And so one of the big things that

763
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 4: we're hoping will happen in the near future is that

764
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 4: those recommendations are adopted so that people like Raymond have

765
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 4: options to litigate their case and to not have what

766
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 4: happened to him occur, which is that you have this evidence,

767
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 4: but nobody's ever actually looked at it.

768
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: So we're glad that someone really has Raymond's back here

769
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: as he continues his fight. Is there anything our audience

770
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:46,760
Speaker 1: can do to help?

771
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, the audience support me as much as possible.

772
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 3: Anything that you see our website on the Free Ramdom

773
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 3: and Modern website supporting our petitions side anything that they

774
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 3: can do too to judge, to do the right thing,

775
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 3: to let my case process through.

776
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 2: So I just let it sit because I missed the

777
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: filing deadline. Actually, I proof of my innocence shouldn't be

778
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 2: sitting here. That's what the world should be doing with

779
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: support it.

780
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to have the action steps LinkedIn the bio,

781
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: So please, whatever you're doing right now, unless you're driving,

782
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: stop and scroll down sign the petition, check out his

783
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: site to stay up on developments in the case, and

784
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: let's keep the pressure on. And that brings us now

785
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: to my favorite part of the show, where first of all,

786
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: I thank you all for joining us and Raymond for

787
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: sharing your story. And now I'm just going to turn

788
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: my microphone off, kick back in my chair and just

789
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: listen to anything you feel is left to be said.

790
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: Let's kick it off with Joanna and Raymond. You take

791
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 1: us off into the sunset.

792
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 4: Please, Well, thank you very much for having me and

793
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 4: Raymond here and for telling his story. I think we're

794
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 4: at a really critical moment where the public is really

795
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 4: paying attention to wrongful conviction. You know, they're really aware

796
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 4: that it happens, and I think motivated to do what

797
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,399
Speaker 4: they can to prevent them from occurring. And a lot

798
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 4: of these conversations center around preventing wrongful convictions, which is

799
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 4: absolutely critical. You know, how do we reform eyewitnessed identification procedures,

800
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 4: how do we address false confessions, Brady violation's misconduct. There's

801
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 4: another part of this story, though, which is that after

802
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 4: somebody is wrongfully convicted, we have this whole process that

803
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 4: they have to follow to try to get relief, and

804
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 4: the rules that are in place and the procedures that

805
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 4: they have to follow often prevent them from having their

806
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 4: cases heard and make it incredibly difficult for an innocent

807
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 4: person to get relief. And so I encourage people to

808
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 4: pay attention to that aspect of wrongful convictions. And when

809
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 4: you think about those rules and those laws that govern

810
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 4: these cases, think about the actors who control those the prosecutors,

811
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 4: the local judges, the state legislators. Those are the people

812
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 4: who have the power to create pathways to relief for

813
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 4: people like Raymond Warren, particularly here in Ohio, as we

814
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 4: are grappling with those issues right now through the Supreme

815
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 4: Court Task Force and wrongful convictions, and our hope is

816
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 4: that some of the reforms that we're recommended by that

817
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 4: task force are enacted so that people like Raymond can

818
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 4: have their freedom restored one day.

819
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: First off, I want to thank you Jake Fluff allowed

820
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 2: me to do so interview. The second, I.

821
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,720
Speaker 3: Want the world to know that I'm in here something

822
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 3: I didn't do. This could happen to any of you

823
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 3: or any of your children. Like I said, I was

824
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 3: the child on It's happened, and not hearing my evidence

825
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 3: and hearing the proof of my innocence does a.

826
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:32,399
Speaker 2: Mister filing them a lot.

827
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 3: I need your help right now. The justice system has

828
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 3: their knee on my name.

829
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 2: I'm dying. I needs weal something I didn't do. So

830
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 2: anybody that's listening to this support me.

831
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 3: I like to sign up petitions, but showing up with

832
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 3: those support roles and showing up the places I need

833
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 3: your health. Anybody that does support me and get out

834
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 3: the help. I want to thank you right now. I

835
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: want this, you know, this nightmare to end. There's a

836
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 3: lot of things in life, like I said, haven't got

837
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 3: to experience it.

838
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: I mean here, like you said, I was sixteen years old.

839
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: People here, in this room of all of it, Washington

840
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 2: grew up. That sucks. God it sucks as well, does

841
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: be over with it?

842
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

843
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cleiburn, and Kevin Wartis,

844
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

845
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

846
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

847
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at

848
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

849
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 1: all three platforms. You can also follow me on both

850
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is

851
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good podcast and association with

852
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one