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Speaker 1: Up next. Wow what Giano called part of the gig

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Speaker 1: which switch secually, we all know that the black community

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Speaker 1: votes overwhelmingly for Democrats, so much so that the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party takes the black vote for granted. Is it time

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Speaker 1: for black folks to take charge of their voting habits. Today,

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Speaker 1: one of the left leading intellectuals and I debate the

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Speaker 1: black communities relationship with the Democratic Party. This is allied

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Speaker 1: with Gianno called well, thank you Dr Mark Lamont Hill

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Speaker 1: for joining me today on all of Gianno called well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of folks know you as a very influential

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Speaker 1: brother on the left for your intellectual Clearly you have

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Speaker 1: your own show and people may not realize that you

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Speaker 1: Before you were on CNN and all those different places.

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Speaker 1: You were on Fox News Channel doing weekly ball Battle

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Speaker 1: with Bill O'Reilly and you did it. Yeah, Bill really

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Speaker 1: respected you. I remember this one particular clip where he

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Speaker 1: was giving an example about a coke dealer and he said, hey,

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Speaker 1: you look like one, and you said, well, you look

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Speaker 1: like somebody who does coke. Those were the good old

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Speaker 1: days where you can make jokes and people weren't as

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Speaker 1: pc as they are now. So definitely a different place

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Speaker 1: to be, so thank you for joining me again. That's

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Speaker 1: my pleasure, brother, it really is. Man. I always love

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Speaker 1: a good civil dialogue. I've seen some recent chat on

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Speaker 1: social media's uh, that's what we're here for today, a

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Speaker 1: good civil dialogue. So you you're clearly a prominent voice

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Speaker 1: on the left, You've got a big platform, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to figure out from you, what do you think

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Speaker 1: thus far Joe Biden's presidency. It's a good question. I first,

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Speaker 1: I say that the Biden presidency is exactly what I

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Speaker 1: expected it to be. It is a presidency that won't

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Speaker 1: meet the needs of the real left, but it will

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Speaker 1: irritate the right significantly because he's not the centrist that

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Speaker 1: he campaigned on either, And so what you end up

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Speaker 1: with is a presidency that is slightly left of center

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Speaker 1: that problem, which is sort of what it promised to be.

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Speaker 1: But I would argue not nearly as progressive as he

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Speaker 1: promised right, which was to be the most progressive president

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Speaker 1: since l B J or since FDR Right. He ain't that.

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Speaker 1: But he's also not the right winger that some people

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Speaker 1: on the left was we're afraid he would be. But

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Speaker 1: he's also not the socialist leader that many people on

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Speaker 1: the right are now pretending that he is because of

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Speaker 1: some of the spending that he's doing and because some

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Speaker 1: of the plans that he's trying to enact. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of folks in the middle, you know,

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Speaker 1: most voters are in the middle. They're more so independent

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Speaker 1: than anything else. They were told and sold on the

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Speaker 1: fact that Joe Biden was going to be a moderate,

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Speaker 1: and I know you said that, clearly he's not. A

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Speaker 1: lot of folks have said pre election that progressives have

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Speaker 1: said that they were going to drag him to the left,

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Speaker 1: and we clearly see that happening. But what we're not

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Speaker 1: really seeing is any policy specific and direct for African Americans,

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Speaker 1: which is the reason why he's in office today because

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Speaker 1: of the black vote. Black folks seemingly, especially when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Democratic politicians, seem to always get left out

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Speaker 1: in the cold. They vote for him, they rally for him,

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Speaker 1: but they never really get any tangibles for their support.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? You know, It's an interesting question. And

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Speaker 1: I'm somebody who sits on the left and I've been

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Speaker 1: critical of the Democratic Party for many years for this,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't say we don't get anything for Democratic votes

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Speaker 1: but we certainly don't get the kind of race targeted

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Speaker 1: policy and other groups get. We are with political scientists

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Speaker 1: referred to as a captured electorate. We uh, we ain't

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Speaker 1: going nowhere. The assumption is Black people gonna vote Democrat

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Speaker 1: no matter what happens, and so very little is done

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Speaker 1: to get us to vote Democrat. What's done is to

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Speaker 1: get us motivated to vote at all. So, in other words,

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Speaker 1: if a h Black people come out and vote, somewhere

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Speaker 1: between eight eight and ninety four of them are going

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Speaker 1: to vote Democrat. But if we don't speak to their needs,

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Speaker 1: you're only gonna get a hundred. If you speak to

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Speaker 1: their needs or or you promise some stuff, maybe three

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Speaker 1: d come out, you'll still get the same percentage, but

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Speaker 1: you'll have a lower turnout. So a big part of

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Speaker 1: what Democrats strategy has been is doing stuff to get

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Speaker 1: voter turnout, but not trying to convince people to vote

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Speaker 1: for them. And that's something that you don't see with

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Speaker 1: the Latino communities for for lots of complex reasons, the

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Speaker 1: biggest of which is just internal political and ideological diversity

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Speaker 1: among the various types of Latin X voters. White folks

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Speaker 1: certainly aren't trailed with an assumption that they're just going

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Speaker 1: to vote for whoever. And so I think it's it's

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Speaker 1: a big part of the fact. It's largely do rather

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Speaker 1: to the fact that black folks don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of political options in a two party system where they

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Speaker 1: don't trust the Republican Party and where they don't feel

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Speaker 1: like Republican policy speaks to their needs, and so they

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Speaker 1: end up saying, well, look, I don't trust these Democrats,

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Speaker 1: I don't like these Democrats. I like some of them,

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Speaker 1: but at the very at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: I know that they'll do better for me than Republicans,

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Speaker 1: and that becomes, uh, the kind of endgame. And so

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Speaker 1: you don't see the kind of attempt to shift policy

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Speaker 1: or shape policy around African American needs and interests. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know what what's interesting is I did see some

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Speaker 1: some various outreach from the Democrats, especially calling Republicans racist

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Speaker 1: more so than they typically do, which we know that

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Speaker 1: exists in every election. But because Donald Trump was doing

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Speaker 1: a lot of outreach to African Americans, especially African American men,

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Speaker 1: you saw al what he got in twenty sixteen, which

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Speaker 1: was a percent generally the black vote to percent black men,

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Speaker 1: and this year for African American men who had a

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Speaker 1: high school diploma or below that they voted for him

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Speaker 1: to the tune I believe. So we do see when

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Speaker 1: there is some policy tangibles. We talked about the first

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Speaker 1: step back in the number of these things that I

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Speaker 1: know folks on the left typically dismiss as real and

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Speaker 1: tangible efforts. We do see black folks say, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: willing to give this a shot, give it a chance.

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Speaker 1: But we without any real tangibles. Because I'm from the

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Speaker 1: South Side of Chicago, I've heard the song and thence

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Speaker 1: pretty much all my life. You know, white Democrats are races,

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Speaker 1: so we couldn't get anything done for you. But we're

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Speaker 1: gonna come back the next election cycle. We're gonna have

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Speaker 1: a fish fry, a chicken cookout, and we're gonna tell

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Speaker 1: you what we're gonna do for you. And nothing gets done.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't you? Would you advocate for black folks just become

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Speaker 1: an independent versus being in that out which we saw

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Speaker 1: under Barack Obama In two thousand and eight, black folks

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Speaker 1: voted for Barack Obama. You know, it's an interesting question.

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Speaker 1: You asked first let me get to the first one.

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Speaker 1: I'm not convinced. I don't. I don't concede that black men,

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Speaker 1: particularly educated black men, voted for Donald Trump because of

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Speaker 1: policy tangibles. And I'm not convinced that that's the case.

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Speaker 1: I haven't, uh when I look at so when I

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Speaker 1: when I've interviewed folk and talked to folks, that's not

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Speaker 1: what I get. Now, I don't assume that my experience

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Speaker 1: is I don't confuse my experience for data. So I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to say that, you know, anecdotally what I'm

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Speaker 1: experiencing is necessarily the whole story. But if I look

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Speaker 1: at Trump's proposed plans and I juxtaposed that to say

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Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan's plans or say Mitt Romney's plans, um, it's

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Speaker 1: not that Trump offered vastly broader or even more targeted policies, um,

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Speaker 1: and yet black men voted for Trump much more. I

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Speaker 1: think that there were several things that play here when

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Speaker 1: we look at Trump versus Hillary Clinton. I think there's

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Speaker 1: a very complex comm station we have to have about gender,

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Speaker 1: about whether black men are willing to vote for a

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Speaker 1: white woman, and whether they were willing to vote for

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Speaker 1: a Clinton in particular of whether they're male or female

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Speaker 1: at this stage in history, given everything that happened with

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Speaker 1: Clinton's in the nineties. UM. The second piece of it, though,

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Speaker 1: in the second election of Trump, the second election that

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Speaker 1: he lost, is an interesting connection that many black male

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Speaker 1: voters had to Donald Trump. And there's something about Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump's personalities or something about the way that he navigates

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Speaker 1: the world that does sort of resonate with certain voters.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that it's because of, you know,

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Speaker 1: Trump's vision of school choice or because of Trump's understanding

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Speaker 1: of the free market. I don't think it's necessarily because

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Speaker 1: you know, any particular policy, as much as as it

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Speaker 1: is who Trump represents, which I think is deeply problematic.

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Speaker 1: But the second part of your your question, I think

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Speaker 1: we is where we probably find some common ground. I

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Speaker 1: don't believe black voters should be have allegiance to the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party. Now. I happen to be a Green Party member,

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Speaker 1: and I've been a Green Party member almost all of

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Speaker 1: my voting life. I voted for Joe Biden in this

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Speaker 1: last election. It was the first time since I've been

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Speaker 1: voting for presidents that I can remember that I voted

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Speaker 1: for a Democrat and in an election, and it was

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Speaker 1: for me, it was because of the particular stakes of

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Speaker 1: this election. But I say that the same I'm still

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Speaker 1: able to weigh in on policy, I'm still able to

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Speaker 1: be part of the conversation. I'm still able to drag

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden in the direction that I want them to

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Speaker 1: be dragged. But the Democratic Party doesn't take for granted

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Speaker 1: I'm going to vote for them. And I think that

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Speaker 1: if black people had that kind of flexibility, it would

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Speaker 1: be fine. But if all black folks are registered independent

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Speaker 1: but they still vote Democrat every single time, then you

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Speaker 1: end up in the same vote. Democrats don't care whether

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Speaker 1: you're registered or not. I mean, it might matter for

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Speaker 1: the primary, but in general, Democrats want are you gonna

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Speaker 1: vote for us? So if a whole bunch of independent

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Speaker 1: black folks still voted for Democrat in every election, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure that changed anything. So black folks don't have

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Speaker 1: to just change your affiliation with to actually change how

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Speaker 1: we vote, not just in the national election, but particularly

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Speaker 1: in these local and state wide elections. Okay, do so

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Speaker 1: do you think folks are gonna answer that call? And

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Speaker 1: and before you answer that question, because you were saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: you don't know the reason why so many voted for

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Speaker 1: Trump if his personality what what the case may be,

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Speaker 1: And and many could argue that the personality was a

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Speaker 1: part of it. Certainly people were attracted to his personality.

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Speaker 1: Is bravado all of that that that alpha male type energy.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I can understand that piece. But we also

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Speaker 1: if we're looking at the data just in terms of

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Speaker 1: how well black folks did over four years, by the

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Speaker 1: time he was leaving it was he was up for election.

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Speaker 1: Rather during that time of the election cycle, unemployment in

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Speaker 1: the black community was it is lowest on record five hispanics.

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Speaker 1: These are tangibles. You talk about the deregulation of the

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Speaker 1: economy and how it benefited everyone. It wasn't just the wealthiest. Again,

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Speaker 1: they would gain more because they pay the most in taxes.

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Speaker 1: But certainly there was some tangible benefits, unlike what we're

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Speaker 1: seeing with Joe Biden, who's regulating the economy and he's

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Speaker 1: coming out with a lot of kind of uh, welfare

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Speaker 1: initiatives if you will, to say this is what I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna do for the black community, when the black community

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Speaker 1: actually need jobs, not welfare programs. Here's what I following

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Speaker 1: them because you're saying that that the demographic of blackmail

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Speaker 1: voters who voted the most Trump board between earners, of

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Speaker 1: which I said that the original number that I stated

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Speaker 1: with those who had high school diplomas are below overall

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Speaker 1: in terms of black folks, has supported him black men,

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Speaker 1: I believe it was almost My understanding is, and I

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Speaker 1: don't have the data in front of me. That's why

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to speak with certainty, but

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Speaker 1: my understanding of the data was that the highest slights

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Speaker 1: of black men who voted for Trump were actually those

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Speaker 1: who had higher educational attainment and higher income. Yeah, I don't,

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Speaker 1: I don't have the data to support that that particular conclusion.

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Speaker 1: But but but but so because it's interesting to think about

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Speaker 1: the most vulnerable people are voting for Trump workers, people

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Speaker 1: who honestly are fairly recession proof. For example, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you look at black men who make over seventy

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Speaker 1: dollars a year, who have graduate degrees or college degrees,

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're not recession proof per se, but they

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Speaker 1: certainly are less vulnerable to the whims of the economy

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Speaker 1: than say, someone with a high school diploma and someone

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Speaker 1: who's making minimum wage. And so I'm always fascinated to

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Speaker 1: know which slices of our population, of of our community

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Speaker 1: are finding residents with Trump's message. But but again, black

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Speaker 1: voting patterns with regard to Republicans aren't don't necessarily hindle

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Speaker 1: on the economy. So you could look at moments under

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Speaker 1: George W. Bush when the economy was fairly strong, right

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Speaker 1: particularly the first two years of his presidency, and when

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Speaker 1: you when he goes up for re election in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and four and John Carey's on the table, it

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Speaker 1: could have made complete sense to vote for George Bush

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Speaker 1: based on the economy at that at that time. But

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Speaker 1: they didn't because there's something about George W. Bush that

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Speaker 1: didn't resonate with them. And of course we have nine eleven,

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Speaker 1: we have the Iraq War, we have weapons of mass instruction,

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Speaker 1: there are other conversations going on. Similarly, you could look

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Speaker 1: at the economy under the kind of small government except

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Speaker 1: for the military Ronald Reagan years, and you see a

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Speaker 1: very interesting voting pattern. Black men are not They're voting

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Speaker 1: for Reagan more than they did George H. W. Bush.

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Speaker 1: George W. Bush, UH and and uh and John McCain, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: But they're still not voting as higher numbers they are

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Speaker 1: for Trump, despite the fact that based on just the

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Speaker 1: economic metrics, you could make a case for it. And

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Speaker 1: so I think it's really complicated. I think that black

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Speaker 1: people are are committed to the Democratic Party as as

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Speaker 1: a cultural move, as a confidence move, and to a

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Speaker 1: large extent, as as a for policy reasons. But I

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Speaker 1: do think that Donald Trump might be an anomaly. And

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Speaker 1: I wonder and we'll know, and you will certainly know

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Speaker 1: in three years, right when when when these when when

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Speaker 1: we campaigning again and and Republicans are attempting to rest

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Speaker 1: control of the White House again. If Donald Trump runs again,

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Speaker 1: will know, we'll have an answer. But assuming Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: doesn't run, it will be interesting to see if anyone

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Speaker 1: else in the GOP can get the kind of support

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Speaker 1: that the Donald Trump got. I think it's an anomaly.

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Speaker 1: I think it's I don't see it happening again. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's one indicator that I think that you you you

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Speaker 1: didn't reference there, and that's the fact that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: has been the only president to my knowledge or really

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Speaker 1: in my lifetime, that has went after the black vote

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Speaker 1: in such a way that it was almost his every

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Speaker 1: conversation when he was running in sixteen. He will be

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Speaker 1: before all white audiences and you will say the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party of taking black people for granted. Republicans were afraid

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Speaker 1: to use that kind of language, and they certainly were

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Speaker 1: afraid to be looking to recruit African Americans to support them,

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Speaker 1: and in the same way that Donald Trump did. You

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Speaker 1: don't even see Democrats per sely go after the black

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Speaker 1: vote in the way that Donald Trump did so. If,

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Speaker 1: for example, he doesn't run for a second goal at it,

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Speaker 1: rather a third go at it, he and the next

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Speaker 1: person to say, if it's rhond de Santas or someone else,

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Speaker 1: they may not go after the black vote in the

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Speaker 1: way that Donald Trump did so, then that would make

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Speaker 1: him an anomalo. So that that's a fair point. I

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Speaker 1: think you're right. I think it would be so unwise

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Speaker 1: though general like if after watching Donald Trump, despite all

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Speaker 1: the drama, all the messiness of his of his presidency,

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Speaker 1: um secure that much of the Black vote, it would

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Speaker 1: be full foolish for the Republican Party. Whoever, the next

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Speaker 1: standard bear is to not follow Donald Trump's blueprint one

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Speaker 1: at least targeting the black vote and Donald Trump didn't

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Speaker 1: just do it during the election. I mean, we're in

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Speaker 1: the kind of moment of the called the doctrine of

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Speaker 1: the permanent campaign, which is kind of post George W. Bush,

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Speaker 1: where you're always campaigning. But but Donald Trump was very

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Speaker 1: particularly to say, look, from day one until day whatever,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to constantly be speaking to the black community.

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Speaker 1: You know, whether it was bringing HPCU presidents into the

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Speaker 1: White House, whether it was you know, meeting at Trump

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Speaker 1: Tower with everybody from Jim Brown to Steve Harvey too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this stuff matters. Now. I disagree with it

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Speaker 1: as a tactic and as a strategy, as a philosophy,

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Speaker 1: and as a policy move Donald Trump or not just

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Speaker 1: don't see the world the same way. So I don't

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Speaker 1: agree with him. But if I were in charge of

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Speaker 1: the GOP, or if I were managing the next presidential

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Speaker 1: campaign for the Republicans, I would absolutely say, look, Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: just because Donald Trump did it don't mean it's wrong.

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Speaker 1: You know, donaldrup did a lot of stuff right tactically,

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Speaker 1: and one of those things was targeting in the black

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Speaker 1: community in the way that he did. And so for me,

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Speaker 1: you know, I I think you're right that if the

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Speaker 1: next person does with the GOP usually does. It wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be at apples and apples comparison. I just have enough

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Speaker 1: faith in politicians ability to do it's best for them

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Speaker 1: to think that now that they see that it works,

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Speaker 1: that they'll do it. I mean, if you remember, uh

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Speaker 1: guess it's been over ten years and now kind of

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Speaker 1: time moves so quickly. But after just getting smashed in

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Speaker 1: in an election, Bobby Jendo did the autopsy of the

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Speaker 1: GOP and he's you know, and and and he said,

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Speaker 1: look at where we are, look at what we're doing,

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Speaker 1: look at what we're not doing, and here's you know.

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Speaker 1: And they made other problems. One of them, of course,

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Speaker 1: was the tent was getting smaller. The Republicans too often

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Speaker 1: said we're gonna double down on what's already worked. Trump's

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Speaker 1: had found a way to do both. He found a

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Speaker 1: way and you and I may not agree on this,

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Speaker 1: but he found a way to appeal to the most

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Speaker 1: racist sector in America at the same time that he

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Speaker 1: said I want some black people on board. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it was it's actually quite stunning how how he was

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Speaker 1: able to kind of speak to the populations that are

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Speaker 1: so desparate and be so successful at getting one side

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Speaker 1: and getting enough of the black vote to make him

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Speaker 1: competitive in every state. That's that takes more than the notion.

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Speaker 1: You know, I disagree with you on that point, but

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Speaker 1: we'll debate more after this quick break. Let's be clear,

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Speaker 1: there were some people that were racist. Didn't they did

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Speaker 1: like what he said? Okay, that's fair, that's fair. There

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Speaker 1: were some people. There were some people, so that's but

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Speaker 1: that's gonna be the case with Joe Biden's base too.

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Speaker 1: There will be some raceist that say, I like some

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Speaker 1: of the things that Joe Biden says. That happens on

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Speaker 1: both sides. But if you yeah, But if we're big artists,

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Speaker 1: I think it'll be safe to say that if you

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Speaker 1: were to take the one million most racist people in

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Speaker 1: America and and line them up and ask who they

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Speaker 1: voted for it, would you would you agree that they

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Speaker 1: would that Trump would would would win by landslide. I

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Speaker 1: don't have the people, I don't have any data to

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Speaker 1: support that conclusion. But if we were to say, a

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Speaker 1: candidate who's using some language that may not be racially

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Speaker 1: sensitive at times, will both of them with be be

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Speaker 1: in that category or are candidate who's literally legislated policy

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Speaker 1: to put as many black men in jail as possible,

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Speaker 1: who's used the N word on the floor of of

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Speaker 1: of Congress, multiple times, whether it be he was repeating

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Speaker 1: what someone said or not. I think most racists would say, hey,

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Speaker 1: give me that person. You don't name Trump or Biden.

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Speaker 1: They would say, give me that person, and that person

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Speaker 1: would be Joe Biden. Yeah, I think out of context

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Speaker 1: that could be true. But I guess I'm making a

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Speaker 1: different argument. My argument here isn't about whether or not

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Speaker 1: Trump is racist or whether Trump is even intending, and

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Speaker 1: that's not That's not what I'm arguing either. My point is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying. I'm just saying that if you look,

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Speaker 1: if you go to rallies taking my golf the table

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Speaker 1: for a minute, if you if you if you just

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Speaker 1: if you look at the people who are marching in

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Speaker 1: Charlottesville right for as an example, just I think it

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Speaker 1: would be dishonest to suggest that those people are marching

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Speaker 1: to tear down who are protesting the tearing down Confederate statues,

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Speaker 1: Those people who are anti Semitic, anti black, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: Are also voting also voted for Hillary Clinton, in the

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Speaker 1: previous election. I think that would be an unreasonable um interpretation.

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Speaker 1: Now whether Trump, I'm not so when I say Trump

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Speaker 1: is appealing to them. I'm not even making at this

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Speaker 1: moment a judgment about whether or not he wants to

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Speaker 1: or not. I'm not making a judgment about whether it's

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Speaker 1: his fault or not. I'm not making it he's more

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Speaker 1: or less racist than his opponent claim at all. I'm

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Speaker 1: simply saying that Trump's campaign and Trump's president seemed to

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Speaker 1: appeal to those people. Those who made a choice for president.

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Speaker 1: They chose Trump, and lots of other people chose I'm true.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that everybody who voted for Trump was racist,

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Speaker 1: but I think if you're a racist, it's much more

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Speaker 1: likely you voted for Donald Trump than Hillary Clinton in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen and then in two thousand and twenty.

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Speaker 1: I would make the same for Biden. But I have

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Speaker 1: no I make no I do not believe that Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden is racist. But I absolutely could dissect Joe Biden's

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Speaker 1: career and point out numerous instances where he said some

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Speaker 1: racist stuff, or did some racist stuff, or reported a

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Speaker 1: racist policy. Absolutely I would agree with you a thousand percent.

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Speaker 1: But just to be clear, you know, when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the crime bill, for example, or three strikes or

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Speaker 1: the welfare reformat wealfare reformat, or the prison litigation reformat.

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Speaker 1: All of these policies that emerged in the nineties, Democrats

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Speaker 1: were in control or but Republicans supported them as well.

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Speaker 1: So for me, it need you don't think you don't

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Speaker 1: think that Republicans supported the welfare wealth reform no wealthfare reform. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I don't I don't understand where where that would

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Speaker 1: be institutional racism or racism generally. The ninety four crime bill.

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Speaker 1: You said holistically, you mentioned a bunch of policies, and

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Speaker 1: you said Democrats supported the Republicans supported them as well.

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Speaker 1: Republicans as a whole did not support the ninety four

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Speaker 1: crime bill. There were some Republicans that voted for, but

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Speaker 1: the majority that voted for that was Democrats. If we

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Speaker 1: look at I don't have the I'm gonna put up

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Speaker 1: the rod call now. But no, that's it's angry. You

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Speaker 1: can take you can take my word is fact. The

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Speaker 1: majority that voted for the institutional rate because my colleagues

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Speaker 1: a lot of them don't believe in institution racism. I

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Speaker 1: get it. I do. I think it exists. In the

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Speaker 1: ninety four crime Bill, most majority Democrats supported it. I'm

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Speaker 1: not I'm not distributing that, but I'm looking I'm literally

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Speaker 1: looking at the crime deal. Now everybody supported the crime

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Speaker 1: That's not true. It was. It was ninety five years

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Speaker 1: and four days and one he didn't vote. Were you

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Speaker 1: looking at the you're looking at the Senate right now,

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Speaker 1: look at the House. But I mean, let's and then

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Speaker 1: I was wondering, what exactly are you looking at? Because

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Speaker 1: the majority of folks that voted for it, and who

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Speaker 1: was it? What was the makeup in the Senate at

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Speaker 1: that time too, That's another consideration. But the majority of

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Speaker 1: the folks, especially when you look at the House of

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Speaker 1: Representatives the word democrats, right, But we're talking about that

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Speaker 1: the Senate where Joe Biden was, right, Joey wasn't in

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Speaker 1: the House, he was in Senate. So my point is

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Speaker 1: everybody voted for it. I'm not. I'm not making a

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Speaker 1: claim that Republicans were more forward. Wait, just maybe we're

430
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: talking abow diferent things. You you you you agree that

431
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,399
Speaker 1: in the Senate nearly everyone, it was nearly unanimous support

432
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 1: for the crime bill. You agree with that, right, No,

433
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:09,679
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that. I gotta look at that record.

434
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm okay. I mean, I'm talking about

435
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 1: the majority already stands. The majority party stands. Was the

436
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 1: Democrats supported it. It It was their issue, their bill. Uh.

437
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson, Jackse Jackson went and sat down in the

438
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 1: Judiciary Committee and he said this was gonna cause mass incarceration.

439
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 1: And he was absolutely right. And he was the spokesperson

440
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: for the black community at that time, one in which

441
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:39,120
Speaker 1: Democrats supported. So with that hold on, I'm confused because

442
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: this is just a matter of fact. I'm looking. There

443
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:48,679
Speaker 1: were four days and one instention. So again in the Senate,

444
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: I mean, we can't really disagree on this, right, I mean,

445
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 1: this is a matter of fact. Right, Almost everybody voted

446
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 1: for it. Only four people out of a hundred said no,

447
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: that's a fact. You still think that that most people

448
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 1: didn't vot for it. Look at the House, Look at

449
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 1: the House totals. I'm only talking about the Senate because

450
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: I'm talking about Joe Biden. I'm saying that Joe Biden.

451
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: I'm saying that Joe Biden supported it. Right. I agree,

452
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: Democrats supported it. Democrats advanced this was a project. In fact,

453
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: this was one of the policy. But you said Republicans

454
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 1: and Democrats everybody voted for it. That would means if

455
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: everyone voted for everyone in the House and everyone in

456
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: the Senate would have to have supported it. That is inaccurate.

457
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:32,920
Speaker 1: It's factually that's not what I'm saying that I'm saying

458
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: so clearly we're miscommunicating. So so that we could be

459
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: on the same page. I'm saying in the Senate where

460
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: Joe Biden was, where Joe Biden advance, that was a

461
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: serving architect in advance a policy that had detrimental impacts

462
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: on the black community. I agreed, most it was a

463
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 1: democratic project. I agree. I'm saying that Republicans also supported it,

464
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: that this was not a u and I conceded that

465
00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: point from the beginning. I said that there were some

466
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: report Republicans that did support it. That's what I said

467
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: that I said, the majority, the majority that supported the bill,

468
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: we're Democrats, That's what I said. We're on the same page, right,

469
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: I'm saying, But the majority of Republicans who were in

470
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: the Senate also voted for it. We agree with that too, right,

471
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: I was listening to your point in terms of the majority.

472
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 1: I don't know what the Senate totals are. So if

473
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: you say that that's the case, but that's still but

474
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: that's still we're talking about over four hundred people in

475
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: the House of Representatives. We're still there's still more Democrats

476
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 1: supported it than Republicans. So that's the point there. Move on. Yeah,

477
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,440
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not I'm not just I'm not just agreeing

478
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: with that. Right, we were on the same page from

479
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 1: the beginning. I said the majority supported it, and some

480
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: Republicans did supported Sure, but it wasn't just majority of Democrats.

481
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: I have. I have no dog in the dimocrats. I'm

482
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: fine saying with Democrats supported I have. That's I'm saying. Yes,

483
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 1: I'm that's never been in the street for me. My

484
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: overall point in saying this is to say that I

485
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 1: don't look at the Crime Bill or any of these

486
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: other and I did. It wasn't just some of the

487
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: crime but like I said, the Welfare reformat, prison Lilegation

488
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: REFORMAC these were all bills that were they all and

489
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: I was speaking about all four of the bills that

490
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: a one time that was the other thing. I wasn't

491
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: speaking just of the House. That's that's not true, because

492
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 1: you lumped them all in there. There you go, right,

493
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,479
Speaker 1: And what what I'm saying is if we look at

494
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: if we look at this body of work emerging in

495
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: the nineties, there were not Republicans saying, no, we should

496
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: get softer on crime. There were there, they were not.

497
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: In fact, most of the if you remember, most of

498
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: the opposition, Republican opposition to these bills were about the

499
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: details of the bill, not against the premise of the bill.

500
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: Right as you as you know in Congress, it's it's

501
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 1: the devil's in the details. People saying we don't want pork,

502
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: we don't want these add ons, we don't we don't

503
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 1: want to people Democrats and Republicans sins were smuggling other

504
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: things on a on a bill that has nothing to

505
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: do with the thing they're talking about. We saw with

506
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: the COVID release package. But there were there were not

507
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: a string of Republicans saying, no, we should we shouldn't,

508
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: we shouldn't give we shouldn't have welfare from No, we

509
00:26:53,720 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: shouldn't be the soft tougher on prisons form. For I'm

510
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: not making a case about what I'm making. The case

511
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: when it comes to legislation and bills is the devil's

512
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: is in the details, and people put pork in it

513
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: and things that Okay, got it all right, I understand absolutely,

514
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: But also but also the Clinton presidency. Clinton was very

515
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: strategic and saying. Clinton had a series of policies that

516
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: he knew would be palatable to the mainstream, and he

517
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: knew that would um make him seem like a centrist,

518
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: and and and and Bill Clinton was quite savvy in this,

519
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: and he understood that the crime bill here said, the

520
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: string of bills that we just talked about, would be

521
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: things that would make him look reasonable and tough and

522
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: quite frankly, in many ways, it was the Clinton campaign

523
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 1: and Clinton administration that threw black people under the bus

524
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 1: because they said, well, if if I could be a

525
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,359
Speaker 1: two term president by governing this way, by by by

526
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: attempting to govern from the center. Um. Of course they

527
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: say now they regreted. It's very easy to regret things

528
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: twenty years later, thirty years later. It's very easy to

529
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 1: regret things when there's nothing at stake. That the question is,

530
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 1: do you know, how did you feel when you were

531
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: when you're in the midst of doing it, and was

532
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: it just an air of judgment or was it what

533
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: you wasn't that you did whatever you needed to do

534
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: to succeed. And so when I look at that, I say,

535
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: Joe Biden's a little bit of both. Joe Biden's. You

536
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 1: don't get to be a career politician. You don't get

537
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 1: to be in the Senate for all that time and

538
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,920
Speaker 1: and not have to make some calculations that are not

539
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: ethically strong. Right, you're but you can convince yourself that

540
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: you're looking big picture. And then there's a way that

541
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: I think Joe Biden has grown. I think that's way

542
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden has been challenged and pushed and made

543
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: to look at the world differently. And I appreciate that

544
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: in him, and I think there are a lot of

545
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: politicians like that. I don't think it's just Joe Biden.

546
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 1: And So when I think about racism, and I think

547
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: about what it means to live in a country where

548
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: they're still lingering racism, and I think about who who

549
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: those people to tend to vote for. They tend not

550
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: to vote for people who speak about racial diversity. It's

551
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: not to vote for people who say black lives matter.

552
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: They tend not to vote for people who want to

553
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: reform police, you know, all things that Joe Biden has

554
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: talked about. Even though again I don't Joe Joe. I

555
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: happen to think Joe Biden is not strong enough on

556
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: these issues. I don't. I'm deeply critical of Joe Biden

557
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: on these issues. But it's hard for me to imagine

558
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: that someone who supports police votes for Joe Biden if

559
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: that's their pride, if if they're voting on that issue. Obviously,

560
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: people aren't single issue voters all the time. Um, it's

561
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: hard for me to believe that somebody who cares about

562
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: the environment, I'm sorry, who who who doesn't believe in

563
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: global warming for example, or someone who wants to put

564
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 1: out the Parents Accords hard to believe they vote for

565
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: Joe Biden. It's complicated because, you know, voters vote for

566
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: lots of reasons. That's that's true. People vote for lots

567
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: of reasons. And I think a lot of people, especially

568
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: some prominent black folks. I'm not sure if you know

569
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: Terik Nashid or not. He's he's been on a podcast

570
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: he believes or rather he has said that he believes

571
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: that Joe Biden is a suspected white supremacist, which he

572
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: has a you know, big following, as you know, and

573
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 1: he had he said some very insightful things. He says

574
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: some really insightful things on the podcast that made me

575
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: think and say, man, I never thought about it that way.

576
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So when we talk about these policy is

577
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: very smart, Yeah, very very smart, very very smart, very smart,

578
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: both a lot of insightful thoughts and comments on lots

579
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: of issues. Indeed, indeed, now you you were saying that,

580
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to stay on the ninety four

581
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: crime bill because there's so much other things to be

582
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: talking about than that, But you were saying that with

583
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton. It's interesting how you can say that you

584
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: regret something twenty years ago. What Joe Biden is in

585
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: office right now. It was his crime bill. We've not

586
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: seen any policy pushed forward in terms of reversing some

587
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: of the draconian effects of that that crime bill. We

588
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: saw with Donald Trump, he pulled out the first step back,

589
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: which was what he said to be the first step

590
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,480
Speaker 1: and reversing these these negative effects. What are you doing

591
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: to push folks on the Joe Biden's team on the

592
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: left to tell him that he needs to right these

593
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: wrongs that continue to devastate the black community to this day.

594
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: You know, Um, for me, the strongest thing we can

595
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: do is take to the streets and and mobilize our votes.

596
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: Those are two separate things, right, there's protesting this voting,

597
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: and for me, both of those things are key. You know,

598
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: I've met uh and publicly and behind the scenes with

599
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: many lawmakers in the last few years to talk about

600
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: these issues. I'm an abolitionist. I believe in the abolition

601
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: of police and abolition of prisons. So Joe Biden and

602
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: I will never be on the same page. But what

603
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: I can do is make moves and support the types

604
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: of reforms that aren't antithetical to the project of abolition.

605
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: In other words, I don't believe in reform as the solution,

606
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 1: but I don't I don't oppose reforms that that can

607
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: make create more livable lives as we fight to produce

608
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: this new world, this ultimate world, which might we might

609
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: be decades from, we might be centuries from who knows,

610
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: But but we have to we have to fight and

611
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: live in the world that we're in. Right now, And

612
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,479
Speaker 1: for me, that means, for example, pushing Joe Biden to say, hey,

613
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: what about what about cash bail? Pushing Joe Biden saying, hey,

614
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: what about privately funded prisons, federal prisons. These are things

615
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: that we pushed them on during the campaign, and it's

616
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: paid off because he's already saying no, no, you know,

617
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: no to privatize federal prisons. You know, you know Obama

618
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: had already said a note to cash bail and uh

619
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: in federal prisons. Definitely. We're pushing on, pushing against the

620
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: death penalty, pushing for retroactive parole, in release for people

621
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: who incarcerated for for for marijuana in the nineties, who

622
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: got these draconian sentences under under these various laws. These

623
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: are things that we can do right now. And these

624
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: things that I'm doing to push Joe Biden, but not

625
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: just to push Joe Biden, but to push state level

626
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: law making, because so much of the stuff happens at

627
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: the state level, and we gotta push them to Okay,

628
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: So I'm hearing what you're saying, and it's two things

629
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: that pop out. One, Um, I get getting rid of

630
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: the private prisons, But are you saying that you're are

631
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: you against all prisons or just private prisons? Against prisons?

632
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 1: I believe in the abolition of prisons. Yeah, so so

633
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: what do you so? What do you do with the people? Who? Who?

634
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: And I know you have I'm not sure how many

635
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: children you have, but I know you have a daughter.

636
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: So someone tries to do anything to hurt what do

637
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 1: you what do you do? You take the law into

638
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: your own hands or what is it you would advocate

639
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: to prevent the destruction of life? And what criminal penal?

640
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 1: Is there any criminal penalties? Do they go in the

641
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: corner for a few hours? And what? What? What? What

642
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: are we doing? Well? I think there's a lot of um,

643
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: there's a lot of space between putting someone in a

644
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: cage and sitting someone in a corner. Right, There's there's

645
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: lots of ways that we can reimagine the world. Yeah, no,

646
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: I know what I mean. These are the questions I

647
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 1: get asked all the time. Right, is it a slap

648
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: on the wrist? You know? Do we get people slap

649
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: on the wrist or do we you know? And if

650
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: because people can only think in extremes, because that's how

651
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: we've been talked to things, Right, We've been We've been

652
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: only talked to think about the extremes, which are either

653
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: we lock of people in cages for years or decades

654
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: or their whole life. Are we kill them or we

655
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: do nothing? And Um, the first thing I say to you,

656
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: because it's it's an it's an important question you're asking, UM,

657
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,439
Speaker 1: the first thing I say is, well, I don't think

658
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: about this purely in those extremes. Right the bulk of

659
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: the cases, the bulk of the people sitting in prisons

660
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: right now aren't there for violent crimes. The bulk of

661
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 1: people in prison aren't there as serial killers and rapists

662
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: and murderers and etcetera. Right if they were, there are

663
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: two point five million of those, we might be having

664
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: a different conversation. So I think about, um, the various

665
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: ways that the prison is used right now to cage people, uh,

666
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 1: for crimes of need, for crimes of addiction, for crimes

667
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 1: of of mental illness, for crimes of homelessness, for crimes

668
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: of poverty. And the first thing that we always talked

669
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 1: about is investing in the world in such a way

670
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: that those crimes are not necessary, That people aren't stealing

671
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: to eat, that people aren't stealing to live, that people

672
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: aren't selling drugs out of this session, that people are

673
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: using drugs to treat mental illness UM, and that we

674
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 1: understand drug addiction as a mental as a mental as

675
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: a mental as a medical problem, rather than as a

676
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: as a criminal problem. So part of what we have

677
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: to do is really is a strip away are the

678
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: logic of criminalization, so that we don't always criminalize everything.

679
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 1: I'm still getting to your crazy serial killer question. I'm

680
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: just I'm just explaining that that that's the which is

681
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: because I think that's the right question. No, I think

682
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: it's the right and fair question because people aren't scared

683
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: of the person steals a TV in the same way

684
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: to scared of the person who might sexually assault them.

685
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm with you. I don't want you to

686
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: think I'm avoiding your question. I'm just saying I think

687
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: that we tend to only thinking those narrow terms right

688
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,399
Speaker 1: of of what happens to that small slites of people

689
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: in prison for that, UM, I think about so so.

690
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: So it's about that. It's about imagining what the world

691
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: would be like if we had uh decarceration. For me,

692
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: prison never listens about decarceration. It's about saying how can

693
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: we empty the prisons now? And during COVID we saw

694
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: lots of signals as to how that's possible. A whole

695
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: bunch of people didn't get A whole bunch of people

696
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 1: did do their time. We let them out. They were aging,

697
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 1: they were dying, they were sick, they want to threat

698
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: to society more, and we said, you know, we can

699
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: let these people out. We did it for health reasons,

700
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: but the truth is we could have done it a

701
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: year prior with with the same consequence. Right they were.

702
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,839
Speaker 1: They weren't more or less of a danger because of COVID.

703
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: We let them out because they weren't really threat to

704
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 1: society anymore. So we have way more people caged than

705
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: we need to. We cage people when they don't have

706
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: enough money to pay for their bail. So essentially you're

707
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,320
Speaker 1: in jail because you don't have enough money not to

708
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: be in jail. That's an evil system. You should that's it.

709
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 1: Sinmily becomes a debtor's prison. So we can decarceerate that way.

710
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: We can decarcate by giving people suspended sentences by right

711
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: by doing work release, by doing community based um action,

712
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: community based dispute resolution as opposed to adjudicating things in

713
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: courts and lead to prison. We can empty out so

714
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,400
Speaker 1: much of the prison without separating fathers and mothers from

715
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 1: their families, without breaking down communities, without stripping away so

716
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: much of what we need excarceration. As an other part

717
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: of what I'm talking about, um, it means that some

718
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: of the party because part of your questions is what

719
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 1: do we do when people commit crimes? But remember crimes

720
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: of social constructs? Right? Okay, I mean, I mean they

721
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 1: are right. You would agree that everything you there's laws

722
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 1: that are past and people feel whatever it's criminal behavior,

723
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 1: they provide a punishment for it. Okay, got it. So

724
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: you agree that crimes is a social construct They're created

725
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: by people, They're created by lawmakers. You laughed at you

726
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: don't want your audience, No no, no, no, no, no,

727
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: no no no, because I'm listening to where you're going

728
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: with it, because okay, let's let's continue. I want to hear.

729
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: I want to hear you. I want to hear. The

730
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: reason I'm saying that, because so much of our attachment

731
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: to things once might commit to crime, is that many

732
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: of the things that we as a society agree on

733
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: his crime shift from time to time. For example, when

734
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: you when I was growing up, Um, if you told

735
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: me somebody was smoking weed, we oh my god, you

736
00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Now it's like you're smoking weed?

737
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: Do I mean? People joke about it, people talk about it.

738
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 1: You can you can run for president. I mean even

739
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton inhaling with he had to lie about it.

740
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: How much Weedy spoke just to be president? Right, And

741
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: it was like wink wink. But like now, if you

742
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: told me somebody smoke we nobody would trip about it. Right. So,

743
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: but that was a crime, and and and so learning

744
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: to read was a crime for black folk at one point, right,

745
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: black people and white people getting married was a crime

746
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: at one point in history. So so what I'm saying

747
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 1: is just because it's a crime doesn't necessarily mean that

748
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: we have to punish it. We can reimagine what crime

749
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: is and say, okay, is everything that we consider a

750
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 1: crime actually something that we as a society want to

751
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: commit to punishing. Now, some things I think in any

752
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: juncture in history we might say should be a crime,

753
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: there are other things a hundred years ago that should

754
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: have been crimes that worked. I mean, there was a

755
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,919
Speaker 1: time where you could beat slaves legally, right, that should

756
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,760
Speaker 1: have been a crime. Uh. You know, sexual assault, particularly

757
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: among married people did not exist. That should have been

758
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: a crime. So I'm not. You know, lynching or lynching

759
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: was act and legal, they just didn't care. But so

760
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: my point is I'm not. My point is that crime

761
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: is people don't commit crimes. They commit acts, and then

762
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: society decides whether these things are criminal or not. So

763
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: another piece of this X carceration is making the is

764
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: making the determination about whether or not all the things

765
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: that we call crimes need to be And I'll give

766
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 1: you a concrete example. Uh, smoking crack. Right, you grew

767
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 1: up in Chicago, you had crackheads as they called them, Right,

768
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 1: they call people crackhead. The crackhead was seen as somebody

769
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: who was not just making a bad choice, but somebody

770
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: who was a bad person. Juxtaposed crackhead with the cocaine. Right,

771
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: you could have a cocad lawyer, You can have a

772
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: cokehead accountant. You could have a cocade holding that goes

773
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: to college when you gets high and he goes to

774
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: class the next day. And we didn't we would say, yo,

775
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: he's making a bad choice. But the crackhead was a

776
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: bad person. So it was much easier to imagine taking

777
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: of one addicted to crack and put them in jail,

778
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: because because that's where bad people go. Then it is

779
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: to take that that that rich guy sniffing coke in

780
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 1: his office before he goes to a board meeting, right,

781
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: And that's abound race. That's about classes, about gender, it's

782
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: about lots of stuff. And so my point is we

783
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 1: have to strip away some of our some of these

784
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: ideas we have about crime. You know, do we really

785
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: do we need to criminalize sex work? Do we need

786
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: to criminalize two people in the corner shooting dice? Because

787
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: there's plenty people some Sich Chicago shooting dice and you

788
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: don't care about that when you walk past, and you

789
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 1: don't really think they need to be in jail for

790
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: for illegal gambling. But it's still illegal. So we have

791
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: to ask ourselves are all these crimes on the books

792
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: um necessary? But then there's this thing you that you're

793
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: talking about, which again I don't want to ignore. And

794
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: for as an abolitionist, is what I call, or not

795
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: what I call. It's what abolitionists have called and what

796
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 1: I echo restraint of the few. Yes, there are people

797
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: in society who need to be restrained from society. They do.

798
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: I grew up with them kind of people. I grew

799
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: up in a hood. It's people You're glad they somewhere else.

800
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: I've seen people kill people. I've seen people do extraordinary

801
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: harm to people, and it's not because they're poor. Sometimes

802
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: it is, but sometimes it's not. It's people who have means,

803
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: who have resources. There's sometimes people just do bad ship.

804
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: And it is not my contention that we put them

805
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 1: in the corners. That my contention that we give a

806
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: slap on the wrist. But the question is is there

807
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: a way to have restraint of the few in a

808
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 1: way that actually makes those people whole again and makes

809
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: the people they harmed whole again outside the logic of

810
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: the prison. And you might say, well, why, Well, because

811
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: the prison doesn't work. The prison doesn't actually rehabilitate. The

812
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: prison actually produces more crime. The prison actually makes it

813
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: is criminal genic. It actually makes people worse than when

814
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: they you go to prison for one thing, you learn

815
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: how to do more crime you in there. The prison

816
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: is unsafe, the printed, the prison creates more untreated trauma.

817
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: So for me, it's I'm not I'm not against developing

818
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: a system of restraint of the few for the purpose

819
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: of restorative justice. But the prison isn't the only model.

820
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: But even if you say, all right, Mark, that's a

821
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: distinction without a difference. You still, whatever you call it,

822
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: you're putting people away for some time. Let's tall you

823
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: that's true. I don't agree, but let's say that's true.

824
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: That's still would reduce the prison population from two point

825
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: three million to maybe a few hundred thousand, which for me,

826
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: would be the ultimate way to undo the violence of

827
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: the crime bill, the violence of the prison litigation, re format,

828
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: the violence of the war on drugs. That's that's and

829
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: I know that's a long answer, but that that would

830
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: be my knowledge. Yeah, So it was so important to

831
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: hear you out in your concept and your analysis failing.

832
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 1: And I wanted to make sure that I didn't interrupt.

833
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: But let me say, and I know that you're a

834
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 1: very smart guy, but my opinion of this and this

835
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: has not been you just pushing it. There's been a

836
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: lot of people pushing the same concept on a national level.

837
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: I'll tell you, I think it's an intellectually bankrupt concept.

838
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: And i'll tell you why. So you talked about coming

839
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: from this South side of Chicago, talk about my best

840
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: selling book, Taken for Granted. My mom was one of

841
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: those quote unquote crackheads that you you just referenced. I

842
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: recognize that she isn't a bad person and wasn't a

843
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 1: bad person. Then, However, there are people who are quote

844
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: unquote crackheads, didn't do criminal behavior, and they abuse their family,

845
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: They rob people, they steal from people, and they may

846
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: murder someone just to get a hold of that drug

847
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: to get in their pocket. Those people deserve jail time.

848
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: When you think about the fact that I'm telling you,

849
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: if you're gonna murder somebody that deserves jail time, if

850
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: someone shoots you, so one murders you, your family is

851
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: gonna want to get justice. Just like with George Floyd,

852
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: his family wanted justice, America wanted justice. Let me ask

853
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: you just a client, Frank, because because my premise was

854
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: if we invest in the world, I agree. But most

855
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 1: people who most people who do who are doing crime

856
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: as crack addicts are doing so as crimes of addiction.

857
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 1: You'd agree with that, right, Like you said, they steal,

858
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: they robbed, they do the stuff. I mean people, it's

859
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: like steeling your VCR in the nineties. It's not because

860
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: they just like to steal VCRs and they tell them

861
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 1: to get right. Yeah, they were selling still in all, Still,

862
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 1: in all, there's someone being disenfranchised by that action. So

863
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: that that's that's what I'm saying. Let me finish this

864
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: point really there. So the same philosophy that you're you're

865
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: pushing is being pushed on the national stage. So I

866
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 1: won't even say as your philosophy. I'll say that is

867
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,439
Speaker 1: being pushed on the national stage. There's people like Kim Fox,

868
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: she's the Cook County prosecutor in Chicago right now, who's

869
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: moving about life with this very same philosophy. She has

870
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: since she's been in office, over the course of three years,

871
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: has dropped all charges. And I'm talking about felony counts,

872
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: real legitimate felony accounts, which are up to murder, all

873
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: charges for twenty nine point nine of defendants. That's about

874
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand people. This is not made Chicago more safe.

875
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: My little brother in a car Memorial Day weekend, seen

876
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: in the car with two of his friends. Uh yeah,

877
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: two of his friends just sitting on the street talking.

878
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: That's it. And that's all they were doing. Two men

879
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: walked up, shot the car twenty five times. His best

880
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: friend died in his arms. Should we reimagine the punishment

881
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: for the shooters because it was two shooters at that point.

882
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,720
Speaker 1: Should we say like, oh, well, maybe they don't deserve

883
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: jail time, or we have to think about this differently. No,

884
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: people want justice. My little brother wants justice. His best

885
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,879
Speaker 1: friend died in his arms and he could have been dead.

886
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: I would want justice. So there has to be a

887
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: place for the bad people to go for those who refuse,

888
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: and there's gonna be people who refuse to obey the law.

889
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: There's not gonna ever be a time where we can

890
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: just say, hey, you can be rehabilitated. Some people, simply put,

891
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: cannot be rehabilitated. They have to face some harsh consequence

892
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 1: in order to turn theirselves around if they were to

893
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: choose to do so. Would you not agree with that?

894
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: I would disagree with almost everything you said. Well, I

895
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 1: reject some of the premises, right, So again you said

896
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: that you're asking why why shouldn't those people get justice?

897
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: My premise, I'm not sure. I never argue that people

898
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: shouldn't get justice. What we're disagreeing is what justice looks like, right,

899
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: he'd not go to jail. Derek Hilman shouldn't go to

900
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: jail in your in your argument? Is that right? Yeah,

901
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: that's my argument. So you're saying Derek Chauvin should not

902
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 1: be in jail for uh, what he did to George Floyd.

903
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: You're I mean, if I don't want to get into

904
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: a sound bite thing, you understand that we're speaking about

905
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: in the ultimate you're talking about right now, in this

906
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: very moment, are you talking about in an abolitionist world?

907
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 1: You're saying, you're arguing, generally speaking, the jails shouldn't exist.

908
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:53,959
Speaker 1: That's right or no? Yeah, okay, I'm saying in this world,

909
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: hold on, hold on. You also remember me saying that

910
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: we have to also to navigate the world we're in.

911
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: Then it could it could decades or even centuries to

912
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: build the world that I'm talking about. Remember that part.

913
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,719
Speaker 1: So let's just say it takes decade. Let's let's just

914
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: say one decade, because that because that would be it

915
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: becomes a disignest conversation because what you design is you

916
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 1: don't want to mention it. Has it dishigonness? Are you

917
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: being intellectually dishonest and I don't know. I'm trying to

918
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:22,719
Speaker 1: understand your point. You don't believe in jail. What I'm

919
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: saying is it becomes misleading to the audience because the

920
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: way they walk with a headline saying makoel moont Hill

921
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: says Derek Schulman shouldn't be in jail, as opposed to

922
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:31,400
Speaker 1: saying markol mont Hill is saying that we should we

923
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: should construct a world that would that would deal with

924
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: these issues in a different way. I also said that

925
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 1: people who are a threat to society should be restrained

926
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 1: and held out of society. I just think the model

927
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: should look different than the prison as it's currently constructed.

928
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: I also said that, And so to take all that

929
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,239
Speaker 1: away and just walk away with markol Monthill said Derek

930
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 1: Shulman shouldn't go to jail, I think that was a

931
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: misrepresentation of what I'm saying. You say you clarified your

932
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: point because you said, oh, yes, that's what I'm saying.

933
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: So you just clarified your point. Fine, we we we

934
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,759
Speaker 1: we You move on from that, But I begin with that.

935
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 1: I began with that. I began by saying that again,

936
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: this could take centuries to create. I began by and

937
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: I also began. But I also began by saying restrain

938
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: of the few doesn't mean that people just go home.

939
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that we get people slaps on the wrist,

940
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: but that we reimagined how we can do it, but

941
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: that the goal is restoration and rehabilitation rather than simply punishment. Also,

942
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 1: I also never suggested that people shouldn't get justice. What

943
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: I said is that justice may look different if we

944
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: have other models outside of just the prison. Right, I'm

945
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: talking about restorative models. I'll give you an example. Someone

946
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:44,279
Speaker 1: shot the president, right, Ronald Reagan gets shot. All right,

947
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: there's a fact he wasn't putting, he wasn't sent to prison.

948
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: It's also a fact. You're not disputing any this, right, No, no, okay.

949
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: So it was determined that he had mental illness, and

950
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,239
Speaker 1: so for decades he got treatment, he got care, he

951
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: got medicine, he got scoping strategies, he learned how to

952
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 1: navigate society. And this man is now where back in society, reintegrated.

953
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: But he didn't sit in a cage for thirty years.

954
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 1: This is my point. So it's it's so and so yeah,

955
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: but so yeah, we could we could have a cheap

956
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: headline of you know, he says, you know, the person

957
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: shoots the president shouldn't go to jail. We yeah, but um,

958
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: But the more nuance and sophisticated conversation, I think is

959
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: to say, what did that set of services do for

960
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 1: him that still kept the public safe, that still held

961
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 1: him accountable, but but allow him to re enter society

962
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: better than when he left. That's what I'm looking for,

963
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,439
Speaker 1: and and and and remember I also began by saying,

964
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: we have to invest in the systems that, um, that

965
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: that create the problems that we have. So again, if

966
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: somebody is addicted to drugs and they're stealing because they

967
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: don't have drugs, part of why they're stealing to get

968
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 1: drugs because they don't act us to them. Right, Drugs

969
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: are illegal, they're they're they're poorly regulated, they're they're unsafe

970
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: for that reason, and you have to live in the

971
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: underside of society to consume a lot of them. Right,

972
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: You can't just go and do heroin like sitting on

973
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: sitting on the steps or so. And many people are unhoused,

974
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: and and so what would what would the world look

975
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: like with safe injection facilities? What would the world look

976
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: like with with the with the decriminalization of these drugs,

977
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: What would the world look like if we invested and

978
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: create a social safety net so that so that the

979
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: people who are the poorest among us still have resources

980
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: for a living wage at the same time that I

981
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: would say, just to use example, with your with your

982
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: your your beloved mother, I don't want her to stay there.

983
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that we should give our living wage

984
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: so that she can buy drugs. I'm saying, give her

985
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 1: a living wage at the same time that we're we're

986
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: supplying drug counselors and drug treatment, and we're treating it

987
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,800
Speaker 1: like a medical problem rather than rather than a criminal problem.

988
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying. So I'm not saying ignore the

989
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: fact that the person just stole your TV. I'm saying,

990
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: let's create a context where someone doesn't have to steal

991
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: t vs to deal with a medical problem and a

992
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: social problem. That's what I'm saying. So I'm not trying

993
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: to ignore what happens when they steal the TV. I'm saying,

994
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: let's try to prevent the stealing of the TV through

995
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: these other investments, But that doesn't change the fact that

996
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 1: somebody's going to steal the TV. Right, everybody isn't going

997
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: to follow this the rules. There's going to be somebody

998
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: who steals the TV, either because they need to or

999
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: because they just want to. Some people are just suck

1000
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: up people and they just want to steal TVs. Let's

1001
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: let's let's accept that. I'm saying, though, if General Carbon

1002
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: steals my TV, I don't want you to put it

1003
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: in here. I want you to make me whole again.

1004
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:39,680
Speaker 1: I want I want you to restore me to where

1005
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:44,359
Speaker 1: I want right. But potentially yes, and it could look

1006
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: like buying me another TV, but it could look like

1007
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: a few other things. And I'm saying that that also

1008
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: has to be part of how we think about this.

1009
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:55,239
Speaker 1: And if we do, if we do those processes, then

1010
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,399
Speaker 1: the Derek Chauvin's of the world, or the Dealing Roofs

1011
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: of the world, Right, these are awful people. They can

1012
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:08,360
Speaker 1: be dealt with through mechanisms that we can create in society.

1013
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,800
Speaker 1: There's no way you're gonna tell me de Laruf is sane.

1014
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: There's no way you're gonna tell me a child molester

1015
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: is sane. There's no way you're gonna tell me a

1016
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: serial killer, the Boston bomber it's sane. I'm saying that

1017
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: they need mental mental mental health treatment as much as

1018
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: they need to be kept out of society. We can

1019
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: imagine alternatives to the prison that that doesn't mean that

1020
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: you don't get justice. Okay, we're talking to Dr Martin

1021
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: Lamont Hill. We'll be back in a second. Let me

1022
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: ask you about this because you know we're we're in

1023
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: a place where, uh, being woke is. I remember when

1024
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,839
Speaker 1: woke was a thing, it was just kind of more

1025
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: among the black community. But now being woken seemingly everybody's

1026
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,799
Speaker 1: thing and whatever the general the purpose of being woke

1027
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 1: was has been usurped to something else altogether in my view,

1028
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you about wokeness and social justice.

1029
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: I recently saw a story about Coca Cola urging its

1030
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: employees to be quote less white as a part of

1031
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: their company's diversity training program. Do you support that kind

1032
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: of thing in the workplace? At what point do we

1033
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 1: get to woke? I still don't know what woke means.

1034
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: I'm still very confused at what people mean when they's here,

1035
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: and I mean, that's that's not me being silly a

1036
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 1: core or like I feel like it's the term, like

1037
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: you said, that has been co opted so much that

1038
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know what it means to people. UM.

1039
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,880
Speaker 1: For me, woke at least what Erica used to say it,

1040
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, stay woke and all that. For me, it

1041
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 1: was about being socially conscious. Woke was about being aware,

1042
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: it was about it was about being aware of who

1043
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 1: you are is and having knowledge itself. Now woke to me,

1044
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: it is about playing into some real narrow thin liberal

1045
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,720
Speaker 1: politics that I don't necessarily share. UM, And so watching

1046
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:03,120
Speaker 1: core operations or or media outlets or whatever co op

1047
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 1: that language to look like that that they're part of

1048
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: the diversity, equity and inclusion game, which is really about

1049
00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: um posturing and making themselves accessible to more money, uh

1050
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: and resources. For me, I have, I have very little.

1051
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 1: I have very little trust or I put very little

1052
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: credence in those in those efforts. Yeah, so would you

1053
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: would you agree that, uh, the Coca Cola really advocating

1054
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: for his employees to be less white would be a

1055
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 1: form of racism that advocating for their employees. Yeah, that's

1056
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 1: what they said. They im sorry, I'm asking for claring.

1057
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 1: You say the one the employable this way? Do you

1058
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 1: mean demographically or to act less one no, no, no,

1059
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 1: to act less white, to act less white. I think

1060
00:54:54,239 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 1: that that's uh a very The language is so ambiguous

1061
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: that I think it can it can potentially do harm.

1062
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 1: I can understand the context in which that would make sense,

1063
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: and I can understand the context on which that would

1064
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: be problematic. I don't think it's racist, but I think

1065
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 1: that it can. It's wildly insensitive and deeply irresponsible. If

1066
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: it's if it's unless it's given extraordinary context. And even

1067
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: in that context, I would say, is that really the

1068
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: best way to make that happen? So if if you

1069
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 1: and I were a part of a corporation, let's say

1070
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 1: Apple or whatever, and they can't no, no, no, Let's

1071
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: say we work for Sea Pack, if you will. Let's

1072
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:41,320
Speaker 1: say we work for Sea Pack and we were in

1073
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 1: the room with our white colleagues and they said, listen,

1074
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: you and Mark need to be less black. Would that

1075
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,720
Speaker 1: be considered racist or would that just be uh, deeply

1076
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: disturbing the premise of the question the answers the answer

1077
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: your questions, Yes, would be racist. And the reason why

1078
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: there's a difference is because black and white aren't opposite sides.

1079
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: Of the same coin. Surely it's surely if if when when,

1080
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,439
Speaker 1: when you're again, you're from Chicago, you know all about

1081
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 1: the Black Panthers, when people stood up and said black power.

1082
00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: Surely you don't think that that's the same thing is

1083
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: somebody sending up and saying white power? Right? They words

1084
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 1: have different meanings given the context and the histories that

1085
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: they come out of. Black and white are opposite sides

1086
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: of the same coin. One has normative power, one has

1087
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: state power behind it, and so when and so again.

1088
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: I don't know the context which Coca Cola is saying it.

1089
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 1: But if if I asked you, if I said, Gianna,

1090
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: what do you love about being black? I think that

1091
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: there are certain answers you would give. Right, you can

1092
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: talk about all the ship you like about being black. Right.

1093
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 1: If I if you walk to white person, what do

1094
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 1: you love about being white? Right? That's a very different question.

1095
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: Not what do you love about being Irish or Russian

1096
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: or Polish or or whatever, but what do you love

1097
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,920
Speaker 1: about being white? And the reason why it would be

1098
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable question to ask someone is because of what

1099
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 1: whiteness means in our social world and with the social

1100
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: and political meanings attached to white nest. So it's not

1101
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: the same thing. And so when you ask me, well

1102
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,880
Speaker 1: what if a white person did that, Well, the context

1103
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,319
Speaker 1: is different, you know what I mean. Similarly, if um,

1104
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: you're I don't know if you're part of blex it

1105
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: or not, but you know if but if somebody says

1106
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: there's a Blexit, that's not the same thing as a

1107
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 1: wex it. If white people said, you know, all the

1108
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: white people need to lead Republican the Democratic Party, that

1109
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: ship would be profoundly different than saying all the black

1110
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: people need to leave why Because there's a history and

1111
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: a context for why black people need to leave the party.

1112
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:32,439
Speaker 1: The Democrats have served white liberals quite well, and white

1113
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 1: people aren't under or under attacking the Democratic Party, right,

1114
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: So so a wexit would be a very different kind

1115
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,280
Speaker 1: of move. And so we could look at this across

1116
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: across the board and say, well, yeah, that's why we

1117
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 1: don't have white history model, that's why we don't have

1118
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: w E T for a for a TV network because

1119
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: these things aren't necessary in context. So when I hear

1120
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: them say so, so part of what whiteness, part of

1121
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,160
Speaker 1: what we've learned, and part of what we talk about

1122
00:57:55,200 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: with regard to whiteness is whiteness is is when people

1123
00:58:02,080 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: is when we say we're trying to rid ourselves of whiteness.

1124
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: Typically what that means is white privilege. Typically what that

1125
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:12,920
Speaker 1: means is being at the center of the cultural experience

1126
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: at all times, being at the center of the the

1127
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: intellectual experience at all times. And so to so what

1128
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: I use the language be less white. No, I would not,

1129
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:22,840
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't assume that that means the same thing

1130
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: as being less black. They don't mean the same thing. Yeah,

1131
00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: but that that that's that's your interpretation of it as

1132
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: you as you would say. They said, be actuively. But

1133
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,000
Speaker 1: but here's the distinction too. You talk about how do

1134
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: you feel about being black? Um, I can ask my

1135
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,880
Speaker 1: friend Connor, for example, how do how does it feel

1136
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: being an Irish American? Or how does it feel being

1137
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: an attack? No, no, no, no no, no, you didn't

1138
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: say that. I'm saying. I'm saying you said about you know,

1139
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: how does it feel about being black? That was your example.

1140
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm saying I did not say, did not say that that? No,

1141
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 1: I said, what do you like about it? What do

1142
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 1: you like about? Being very specific? Okay, what do you like?

1143
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 1: It is important. I'm not I'm not being pedantic. The

1144
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: distinction is important because liking something about being white when

1145
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: white is born out of a certain kind of power

1146
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: and privilege. It's hard to say what you like about

1147
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: being white? What what if you like to be white?

1148
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 1: Is different what you like about as white prisons? What

1149
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: do you like about being white? And see what kind

1150
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: of responses you get? What do you think a white

1151
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: person would say about your white friends? I have white friends.

1152
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: What do you think a white person said, what do

1153
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: you like about being white? Not about your ethnicity, but

1154
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:23,760
Speaker 1: about being white? What do you think they say? Yeah,

1155
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: I've never I've never had that discussion before, so I

1156
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: wouldn't I would know. I barely like I barely hear

1157
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 1: black folks saying what do you like about being black?

1158
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 1: I don't really hear that. And I'm just saying, if

1159
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 1: we're talking about equality and we want things to be

1160
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: the same for everybody, if we wanted to be uh

1161
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: even bored, if you will, then one would say, if

1162
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you be less black, which we know

1163
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: you and I both know that there's been corporations that

1164
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: I've done this there's been supervisor just said, listen, you

1165
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: should be less black. Therefore you would be more appropriate

1166
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: for us, so you would be more accepted by us.

1167
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: If we're saying that that's racism and that's wrong, than

1168
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: being saying be less white can also be viewed as

1169
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: racist and wrong. I get what you're saying. I hear,

1170
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. You're looking at it through

1171
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 1: the context of uh context. It's a different context. It's

1172
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 1: a different it's a different context. But that your context

1173
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean that it's right. Just because you have

1174
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 1: a different context. I can I can look at a

1175
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: glass that has water, and then I can say that

1176
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: glass is half full or is half empty. That's that's context,

1177
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: that's the distinction. But either way, it's still a glass

1178
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: would water at a particular level, right, And I'm saying

1179
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 1: something different. I'm saying because those are objective measures. There's

1180
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 1: a certain amount of water in the glass, and and

1181
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 1: it's and it's and and my perspective may shape how

1182
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: I describe it, but there's still an objective amount of

1183
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: water in the glass. What I'm saying is that the

1184
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: very idea of white and black aren't objective in that

1185
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: way that they're not flat objective categories. They're categories and

1186
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 1: ideas and identities that emerge out of history, and they

1187
01:00:57,240 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: emerge out of politics, and they emerge out of social meaning.

1188
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 1: And so when we make social meanings about things, they

1189
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 1: don't necessarily mean the same thing. And so, and even

1190
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,760
Speaker 1: an example you just gave when I tell somebody, this

1191
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 1: is what I said. If you would ask a bunch

1192
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 1: of black people, what do you like about being black?

1193
01:01:12,600 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 1: You don't think that. I think. You go on Twitter

1194
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:16,439
Speaker 1: and find a hashtag what I like about being black?

1195
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 1: You can find million people tell you all the ship

1196
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: they like about being black. Right, you don't find white

1197
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 1: people in general talking about things they like about being

1198
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: white that aren't about and if they do, it's from

1199
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: You'll you'll see some very interesting answers. And I'd like

1200
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: you to do this and anyone else listening to this

1201
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 1: as an experiment as white people, what do you like

1202
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:36,480
Speaker 1: about being white? Not about being Irish or any other ethnicity, Italian?

1203
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: What have you? What are you like about being white?

1204
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: And the problem is it creates a discomfort because whiteness

1205
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: is often defined or the things you like about being

1206
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,919
Speaker 1: white or often in opposition to what black people don't

1207
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: have or to what other people don't have, because whiteness

1208
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: is about a power relationship, just like blackness is about

1209
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: a power relationship. And so that's why I'm saying it's different.

1210
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:55,920
Speaker 1: And so when you ask, when you when if somebody

1211
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:58,520
Speaker 1: says that you be less black, like you said, they're

1212
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 1: saying you need to hide that society has decided are

1213
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: wrong and bad in order to achieve right. Don't talk

1214
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:07,760
Speaker 1: the way you talk, don't move the way you move,

1215
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: don't dress the way you move, do a dress the

1216
01:02:09,640 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: way you dress, don't do the things that you do

1217
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 1: culturally or don't don't identify in the world with the

1218
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: people that has been despised. Yeah, you're right, that would

1219
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 1: be racist when they tell you don't be white, when

1220
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 1: they said don't don't act white. And again I'm not

1221
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:24,360
Speaker 1: saying it's okay. I'm just saying it doesn't necesarily to

1222
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: be racist. Everything is not the same if I say, um,

1223
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,400
Speaker 1: actless white. A lot of times just saying, at least

1224
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 1: in experiences that I've had where this has been said,

1225
01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,640
Speaker 1: they're saying, be more culturally sensitive, listen to other people,

1226
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: decenter yourself. Can you just say that I agree with you.

1227
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:43,920
Speaker 1: I said there are other ways to do it. I'm

1228
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: not I'm not. What I'm saying, though, is the sentiment

1229
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: behind beat less white is not the same as a

1230
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 1: sentiment behind beatlist like they're not the same thing. I

1231
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 1: agree with you that there are better ways to deliver it.

1232
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 1: I agree with you that this is not a helpful

1233
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 1: or healthy way to build community. We're on the same

1234
01:02:57,400 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: page that you shouldn't do it. But just because you

1235
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it doesn't mean it's racist. Okay, all right, UM,

1236
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: I hear your point. Now, let me ask you about

1237
01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,560
Speaker 1: something because we were talking about walking this right now

1238
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,440
Speaker 1: and we're seeing and to your point where you were saying, hey,

1239
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: you shouldn't be like this like that, and you're using

1240
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 1: your example in your descriptor for black people be less black,

1241
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 1: I would I would argue that they're the same thing

1242
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: is occurring with white people, with a lot of white

1243
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 1: people saying, hey, I hate my white skin and I

1244
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 1: hate um what has happened in this country and what

1245
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 1: I what I might me being white has has done

1246
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,200
Speaker 1: to this country, and that that's a whole another set

1247
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 1: of issues and probably self hatred because obviously these are

1248
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 1: people ancestors and not them actually committing the acts. But

1249
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 1: there was a guy by the name of Andrew Gutman

1250
01:03:42,600 --> 01:03:45,320
Speaker 1: who head is I believe it was his daughter in

1251
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,320
Speaker 1: a private school in New York City, and he recently

1252
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: took her out, and he wrote a letter to to

1253
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: UM six hundred parents about what they were teaching. And

1254
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 1: in the letter and some of the things he said

1255
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: in the letter I disagree with. I want to read

1256
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: this part UH here what he said, object to the

1257
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 1: idea that blacks are unable to succeed in this country

1258
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 1: without the aid from government or from whites. He disregards

1259
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 1: the view that blacks should be forever, forever regarded as

1260
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:19,160
Speaker 1: helpless victims and are incapable of success, regardless of their skills, talent,

1261
01:04:19,600 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 1: or hard work. And he believed that's what they were

1262
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: teaching in the class. And I think to some degree

1263
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people can agree with that statement in

1264
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:30,919
Speaker 1: terms of UH saying that, hey, you, because you're black,

1265
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 1: you can't be as successful. And I grew up with

1266
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: people saying that to me that I can only go

1267
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: so far in life because of the color of my skin.

1268
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 1: I'm talking about black folks telling me that exact same thing.

1269
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: And these are things that are passed down, theories that

1270
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: are passed down from generation to generation. I understand that

1271
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:48,920
Speaker 1: their systems against us. I understand the history of this country.

1272
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: I get all those things. But for us to form

1273
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 1: our mentality around we can't succeed because of the color

1274
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 1: of our skin. It's not just a dangerous concept, it's

1275
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: one that provides um that we're incapable of any success whatsoever.

1276
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: So what do you do if you believe that you

1277
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: can't succeed doing things the right way? You you get

1278
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: involved in criminality, You pretty much story your life away.

1279
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: You don't believe in education because hey, I'm not going

1280
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: to succeed regardless because of the color of my skin.

1281
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: Are you seeing that in this woke culture? Now? Are you?

1282
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: Are you? Have? You are familiar? You're not seeing that

1283
01:05:20,720 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 1: at all? Have you never heard of any of this? No?

1284
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 1: What I what I've heard in my experience in the

1285
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 1: forty two years I've been on this planet. Um is

1286
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:39,400
Speaker 1: uh more black people acknowledging this is no internal conversations

1287
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: that it happens. White people are engaging in it as well.

1288
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: They're saying Hey, we need to bring about qutches because

1289
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 1: there's no way you can succeed because you're black. That

1290
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: that that does exist. We see that very little. Yeah,

1291
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,160
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you asked me about my experience. Experience.

1292
01:05:57,600 --> 01:05:59,240
Speaker 1: I get an example. I went to Cook County Jail

1293
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: with Jesse Jackson. Of time, since you missed Jesse Jackson,

1294
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:03,959
Speaker 1: you would agree that Jesse Jackson, someone who talks about

1295
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 1: systemic racism, right, and and and black people having a

1296
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: tough way to go. Jack is not shy about criticizing

1297
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 1: racism and calling out racism. Right. So we go to

1298
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:18,360
Speaker 1: the jail and he says, to the incarcerated brothers, how

1299
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 1: many of you are here for a non violent drug offense?

1300
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 1: Hands go up? Almost everybody, right, systemic stuff, He says,

1301
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:31,000
Speaker 1: how many of you finished high school? Almost no hands

1302
01:06:31,080 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 1: go up? He said, how many of you have kids?

1303
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: Hands go up? Two kids, hands go up, three kids?

1304
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: Whole bunch of hands up. He stopped asking, So how

1305
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:43,920
Speaker 1: many of you are here under twenty five years old?

1306
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: A whole bunch of hands go up? So about young

1307
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: black men, systemic drug crimes, kids, broken schools, the whole nine.

1308
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 1: But he just asked questions. He says to him, how

1309
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 1: many of you I want to get out of this

1310
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 1: prison or his jails? She is, how many you want

1311
01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 1: to get out of here? They raised their hands. He said,

1312
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:06,400
Speaker 1: how many you'll want to leave his place? He said, yeah,

1313
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: how many you'll want to shut this prison down? Everybody

1314
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 1: raised their hand. They said, what do we do? You

1315
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:15,680
Speaker 1: know what he said? He said, don't come back no more.

1316
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 1: He said, don't come back no more. Jesse Jackson as

1317
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: a critique of society. It's a critique of the drug war.

1318
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 1: He is a critique of broken schools. But when he

1319
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 1: met with those young men, what he said to them was,

1320
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 1: if you want to shut this thing down, don't come

1321
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 1: back no more. You're from Chicago. I'll give you another example,

1322
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:38,520
Speaker 1: Elijah Mohammed, and I don't you Mohammed. He said, we

1323
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 1: have to starve the system. Nobody would ever say the

1324
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 1: Nation of Islam doesn't have a critique of racism. But

1325
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: what he said was, we have to starve the system

1326
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 1: by cleaning ourselves up. So when you look at Marcus Garvey,

1327
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 1: when you look at do Boys, when you look at

1328
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:56,400
Speaker 1: book or t when you look at Malcolm, when you

1329
01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 1: look at King the argument and our tradition, the churs

1330
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 1: and I've been a part of, is not to ignore

1331
01:08:04,520 --> 01:08:06,120
Speaker 1: that we got work to do and that we need

1332
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:07,680
Speaker 1: to do better, and that we need to act right.

1333
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 1: But it's to balance the need for act right with

1334
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: the realities of a system in which we need to

1335
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 1: act right. And so when I hear people say the

1336
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: system is messed up, there's a conspiracy against us, they're

1337
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 1: trying to kill us, they're trying to arrest us, they're

1338
01:08:31,280 --> 01:08:33,880
Speaker 1: trying to push us out of school, they're trying to etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

1339
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 1: The the endgame has never been to just concede to that.

1340
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 1: It's to understand, as Ratcas used to say back in

1341
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:44,400
Speaker 1: the nature of the threat, it's to understand what you're

1342
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: up against so that you can fight and win. So

1343
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 1: when I meet with young black men, I say, yes,

1344
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: there is a conspiracy against you. They want you go on,

1345
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: they want your erase, they want you silence, then want

1346
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 1: you marginalize. But I said, the next question is are

1347
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 1: you going to be part of the conspiracy or are

1348
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: you going to fight the conspiracy? And that's how I

1349
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 1: think about this work, and that's what I've always heard

1350
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 1: of our tradition. The system is sucked up, but you

1351
01:09:11,280 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 1: gotta act right, and that's the only way we can succeed.

1352
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:18,639
Speaker 1: The system is left up, but you gotta right. Yeah. Wow,

1353
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:21,040
Speaker 1: let me ask you this question because I really want

1354
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,519
Speaker 1: to ask you about this. And you know it's about

1355
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,560
Speaker 1: racism because you mentioned Jesse Jackson. You said you you

1356
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 1: know he talks about racism all the time. Yeah, of course,

1357
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: racism exists, and I personally don't believe it. It will

1358
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 1: never not exist. I think hate will always be with us,

1359
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 1: whether it be hate against Hispanics, hate against White's, hate

1360
01:09:40,200 --> 01:09:42,559
Speaker 1: against blacks, whatever the case may be. I think hate

1361
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 1: is is here to stay. I don't think that that's

1362
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 1: gonna change at any point until Jesus come. Maybe then

1363
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:49,720
Speaker 1: you know that that are changing. And I'm not sure

1364
01:09:49,720 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 1: how you feel about Jesus and one on that, but

1365
01:09:53,160 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 1: you see racism continuously being used in ways like I

1366
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:02,200
Speaker 1: saw that. It was a a transgender woman who says,

1367
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:07,560
Speaker 1: for those who say that we shouldn't have um biological

1368
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 1: men playing in women's sports, that's the new form of

1369
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 1: white supremacy and racism in this country. Uh. You you

1370
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 1: have a home, I know you might be in your

1371
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:20,679
Speaker 1: home right now, you have a master bedroom. Right. People

1372
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 1: are saying that master bedrooms, the phrasing of that is racist.

1373
01:10:24,640 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 1: People are saying that trees are racist. People are saying

1374
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: a lot of different things and a lot of a

1375
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 1: lot of cases. What I'm seeing now it has nothing

1376
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:36,040
Speaker 1: to do with black folks and legitimate racism. White liberals

1377
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,599
Speaker 1: have usurped what true and real racism is for their

1378
01:10:39,640 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 1: own agenda and their own benefit. And we got policymakers

1379
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: like Joe Biden who no longer speaks to black people

1380
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 1: in terms of direct policy. He's saying minorities. Um, do

1381
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:54,800
Speaker 1: you think that the liberals, like really far left liberals

1382
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 1: or even just liberals in general right now, have usurped

1383
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 1: these not even concepts, but what has happened with racism,

1384
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 1: and they created their own agenda to the kind of

1385
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,280
Speaker 1: fuel whatever they want to target and push forward in

1386
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 1: their own life. No. Um, I think that if we

1387
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:17,240
Speaker 1: have a look at the grand swoop of history, they've

1388
01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 1: always been these kinds of tensions and debates. They've always

1389
01:11:20,360 --> 01:11:23,360
Speaker 1: been these skepticisms of white liberals and criticisms of white liberals,

1390
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 1: very skeptical of white liberals, Yeah, he should have been. Um.

1391
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:31,759
Speaker 1: And so I don't think this is some new movement

1392
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 1: as much as I see part of the tension of

1393
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:38,479
Speaker 1: freedom fighting, part of the challenge of of of having

1394
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 1: moral and political political clarity. What are we fighting for?

1395
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: What is the endgame here? What is it supposed to

1396
01:11:46,400 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 1: look like? Um? Is every fight worth fighting for? Now?

1397
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:51,519
Speaker 1: You and I might disagree on whether these things are,

1398
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:55,679
Speaker 1: these terms, these moments, these movements, these controversies, these stories

1399
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:57,960
Speaker 1: are racist or not. I mean, that's almost not even

1400
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 1: the point, right Uh. Um. The question is who gets

1401
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 1: determined what the thing is? And I think too often

1402
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 1: we have surrendered um our power to define, in our

1403
01:12:12,360 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 1: power to lead our own meeting freedom movement, to other people,

1404
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 1: including white liberals. We've allowed too many people to shape

1405
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 1: the discourse or to tell us who we're supposed to

1406
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: be and how we're supposed to be. And for me,

1407
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: the best thing we can do at this junction in

1408
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:31,880
Speaker 1: history is to rest that control back. And I think

1409
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:33,840
Speaker 1: the most beautiful thing I saw in the streets of

1410
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 1: Missouri and two thousand and fourteen, or the streets of Minnesota,

1411
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: in the streets is the people taking control. The people

1412
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 1: season seizing power, et cetera. We're calling for defunding because

1413
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 1: that's what we want, damn what Joe Biden wants. Right,

1414
01:12:55,720 --> 01:13:00,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna call for medicare for all to help what

1415
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,960
Speaker 1: Joe Biden wants. And even and even though this is

1416
01:13:03,000 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 1: a particularly black issue, it should be uh, the Green

1417
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 1: New Deal, we're gonna call for it because that's what

1418
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:12,559
Speaker 1: we want, that's the people want. And we're no longer

1419
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 1: going to say I pray, We're no longer going to say, um,

1420
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 1: not yet, we can't wait. The Democrats won't win on that.

1421
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: We're now saying, what do our people need? What do

1422
01:13:27,640 --> 01:13:30,080
Speaker 1: the people need? What do what? What does the world need?

1423
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,960
Speaker 1: And we're making those judgments. Um, And again, we may

1424
01:13:33,000 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 1: have disagreements, You and I may have disagreements, but if

1425
01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 1: we love black people and we love freedom and we're

1426
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 1: willing to fight for it, then we can get somewhere. Well, yeah,

1427
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 1: you're right, we we do disagree because I don't think

1428
01:13:43,880 --> 01:13:46,120
Speaker 1: black folks are so interested in the Green Deal with

1429
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 1: some of these other things that you mentioned. But you know,

1430
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 1: you know what you said, you know what I just said,

1431
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:54,439
Speaker 1: the exact same thing I said. I don't think that's yeah, yeah,

1432
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:57,320
Speaker 1: but you said they should, but I don't. I don't

1433
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 1: think black folks are really for for that. Think Poland

1434
01:14:00,520 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 1: supports that. But I want to finish this conversation by

1435
01:14:02,880 --> 01:14:05,600
Speaker 1: talking about unity. There's no secret that our country is

1436
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 1: very divided. We often hear people, including President Biden, talk

1437
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 1: about the need for national unity. Is there any hope

1438
01:14:12,479 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 1: of that happening? And what steps can be taken to

1439
01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 1: unify the American people more uh than they are now.

1440
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 1: I don't think you can have unity without justice, which

1441
01:14:24,840 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 1: include prisons. UM. I don't think prisons is the issue

1442
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: right now. We're talking about unifying the people. I'm saying

1443
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:36,519
Speaker 1: we're dying in the streets. We don't have access to capital.

1444
01:14:37,080 --> 01:14:42,479
Speaker 1: There's a huge wealthcap um. Our neighborhoods are over polluted. UM.

1445
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: We're being our streets are being militarized, jobs are leaving. UM.

1446
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 1: I'm saying that there's too there's too much of a

1447
01:14:53,479 --> 01:14:55,840
Speaker 1: gap between those who have and those who don't for

1448
01:14:56,120 --> 01:15:01,720
Speaker 1: us UM to be unified. There's also a big chunk

1449
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 1: of the country that's deeply racist. It's deeply homophobic, it's

1450
01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 1: deeply transphobic, and the condition of peace the precondition of

1451
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:16,639
Speaker 1: peace has to be justice. So if people don't feel

1452
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: whole and whatever that looks like, then no, we won't.

1453
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:28,919
Speaker 1: We won't have unity. We can't all right, So justice

1454
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: in the form of ensuring that police aren't unjustly killing people,

1455
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:38,960
Speaker 1: Justice in the form of black folks not killing each other,

1456
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 1: Justice in the form of jobs. Coming back to the

1457
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 1: communities which which existed in pre COVID. Things were going

1458
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 1: fairly well for a lot of people. So you're saying

1459
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 1: we need justice overall in order to unify the country

1460
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:57,280
Speaker 1: in a real way. I'm saying that, yes, but I'm

1461
01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,559
Speaker 1: gonna be clear of the bar is very low right now.

1462
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: You know, where we were pre COVID is not enough.

1463
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:06,760
Speaker 1: Where we were, we were there, we were doing really

1464
01:16:06,800 --> 01:16:09,040
Speaker 1: well things. I mean, the lowest black unemployment rate in

1465
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:10,920
Speaker 1: the history of this country, or at least since they've

1466
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 1: been recording the data. You're missing my point. I'm saying

1467
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:19,720
Speaker 1: that the bar for for the bar for justice and

1468
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:24,639
Speaker 1: prosperity can't just be that. I'm saying that this isn't

1469
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 1: This isn't the partisan argument. I'm thinking, you know, whether

1470
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:28,840
Speaker 1: we're talking about the Trump days with Timbo, the Obama

1471
01:16:28,880 --> 01:16:30,760
Speaker 1: days and saying none of it was enough. We've never

1472
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 1: been close to justice. Are we closer than we were

1473
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 1: fifty years ago? Of course, I'm not making the case

1474
01:16:35,160 --> 01:16:37,280
Speaker 1: that there's no progress. What I'm saying is we still

1475
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:39,600
Speaker 1: have so far to go, and and and and the

1476
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 1: gaps were experiencing don't hinge upon whose president They hinge

1477
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:47,559
Speaker 1: upon our capacity to imagine the world differently and better,

1478
01:16:48,400 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 1: and um also our our political will to make it happen.

1479
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,559
Speaker 1: And we're so far from that. There's such a crisis

1480
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 1: of leadership. But there's also christ of imagination in this

1481
01:17:01,320 --> 01:17:05,720
Speaker 1: in this country, political imagination, social imagination, cultural imagination. There's

1482
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:08,080
Speaker 1: so much further we could go if we just dream

1483
01:17:08,160 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 1: differently and worked differently and organized differently. And I didn't

1484
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:14,680
Speaker 1: just say, well, we can't do that because we've never

1485
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 1: done it before. And that's too often where we where

1486
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,400
Speaker 1: we find ourselves. Yeah, I certainly agree with you that

1487
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:22,760
Speaker 1: there's a crisis of leadership. We're seeing a board that

1488
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:27,280
Speaker 1: uh continuously in crisis. We're seeing a White House that

1489
01:17:27,320 --> 01:17:29,720
Speaker 1: seemingly and they just got into I'll give them that

1490
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 1: they've been in office for what five months now, So

1491
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:34,120
Speaker 1: I'll give them the fact that they just got in,

1492
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 1: but they're seemingly a government that's not completely working for everyone.

1493
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:40,280
Speaker 1: So that's that's a problem in and of itself. But

1494
01:17:41,040 --> 01:17:43,760
Speaker 1: before I let you go, what's next for you? Do

1495
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:45,600
Speaker 1: you have any big projects? You know, you want to

1496
01:17:45,640 --> 01:17:49,719
Speaker 1: plug your your TV show? You know, got a book

1497
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:51,960
Speaker 1: out as well. I know I'm doing a lot, very

1498
01:17:52,000 --> 01:17:53,840
Speaker 1: excited about it, you know. I I am the host

1499
01:17:53,920 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 1: of Black News Tonight, which airs every single day Monday

1500
01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 1: to Friday, eight o'clock on Black News Channel, which is

1501
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 1: in fifty two million cable home so it should be

1502
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 1: on on whoever's listening is cable provider if not, it's

1503
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: also in Roku channel, Amazon, uh t vo all all

1504
01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:13,160
Speaker 1: the things. UM. Also the host of Upfront Without Jazeera.

1505
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: Our season just ended, but we'll be right back in

1506
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:19,040
Speaker 1: the fall with with weekly weekly international news and just

1507
01:18:19,160 --> 01:18:21,880
Speaker 1: great hard hitting stories. UM. I have the Coffee and

1508
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 1: Books podcast where I sit down with great authors to

1509
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:28,720
Speaker 1: talk through UM their work, their ideas, et cetera. And

1510
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 1: I'm the owner of Uncle Bobby's Coffee and Books. So

1511
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 1: if you're if you're purchasing books or UH interested in

1512
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 1: you know, critical community, critical engaged conversations and beautiful beloved community.

1513
01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:41,880
Speaker 1: Go to Uncle Bobby's dot com uncle b O B

1514
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,040
Speaker 1: B I E s dot com and you can check

1515
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,280
Speaker 1: out all this stuff, including our apparel, our books, everything well,

1516
01:18:47,360 --> 01:18:49,800
Speaker 1: thank you so much for your your time. It was

1517
01:18:49,800 --> 01:18:51,760
Speaker 1: a great conversation. Thank you for joining me today on

1518
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 1: that with cars. It's my pleasure, but bless your brother.