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Speaker 1: Welcome to Talking Politics.

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Speaker 2: Before we start, we have great new Off the Cup

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Speaker 2: episodes up I Interview, Broadway and West End Phenom Marusia Wallace.

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Speaker 2: We have a new Talking Coffee up too, so go

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Speaker 2: check those out. But let's get right to politics. It

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Speaker 2: was another wild week. This time all eyes are on Greenland.

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Speaker 2: It's like, let's go around the map. What theater are

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Speaker 2: we mucking around in this week? As you know, Trump

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Speaker 2: has been saber rattling threatening to take Greenland, a sovereign

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Speaker 2: Danish territory, for weeks. He's actually been talking about it

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Speaker 2: for a year, but he's sort of just ramped it

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Speaker 2: up in early January, maybe in advance of Davos in Switzerland.

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Speaker 2: Here's what he had to say just under two weeks ago.

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Speaker 3: I'm not talking about money for Greenland yet. I might

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Speaker 3: talk about that, but right now, we are going to

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Speaker 3: do something on Greenland, whether they like it or not,

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Speaker 3: because if we don't do it, Russia or China will

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Speaker 3: take over Greenland and we're not going to have Russia

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Speaker 3: or China as a neighbor.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 4: I would like to make a deal, you know, the

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Speaker 4: easy way, but if we don't do it the easy way,

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Speaker 4: We're going to do.

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Speaker 1: It the hard way, Okay.

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Speaker 2: Just to be clear, the hard way is by force

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Speaker 2: sending US troops into Greenland to take it. Now, that

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Speaker 2: was an idea that the vast majority of Americans opposed,

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Speaker 2: and frankly so too did Republican lawmakers.

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Speaker 1: More on them in a second.

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Speaker 2: It all escalated this week seemingly again, as world leaders

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Speaker 2: were gathering in Davos, Switzerland, where Trump, on the world

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Speaker 2: stage was again telling our NATO allies that we need

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Speaker 2: Greenland for national security and we will get a deal

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Speaker 2: on it no matter what. He even texted the Norwegian

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Speaker 2: Prime minister this absolutely insane message which this week I

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Speaker 2: want to read it for you in case you missed it.

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Speaker 2: It's insane. It's the rantings of a madman. Here's what

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Speaker 2: he says, dear Jonas. Remember this is the Norwegian prime

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Speaker 2: minister he's texting. Okay, dear Jonas, considering your country decided

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Speaker 2: not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having

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Speaker 2: stopped eight wars plus, I no longer feel an obligation

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Speaker 2: to think purely of peace, although it will always be predominant,

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Speaker 2: but now can think about what is good and proper

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Speaker 2: for the United States of America. Denmark cannot protect that

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Speaker 2: land from Russia or China. And why do they have

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Speaker 2: a right of ownership anyway, there are no written documents.

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Speaker 2: It's only that a boat landed there one hundreds of

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Speaker 2: years ago. But we had boats landing there too. Also,

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Speaker 2: I have done more for NATO than any other person

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Speaker 2: since its founding, and now NATO should do something for

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Speaker 2: the United States. The world is not secure unless we

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Speaker 2: have complete and total control of Greenland, thank you, President

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Speaker 2: djt Okay insane now, and almost none of that is true.

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Speaker 2: By the way, Norway doesn't hand out Nobel prizes. Okay,

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with it. Trump didn't stop A plus wars.

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Speaker 2: We know that he has not done more for NATO

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Speaker 2: than any other person since its founding.

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Speaker 1: Okay, none of that was true.

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Speaker 2: But also just imagine being this insecure, childish and like

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Speaker 2: fragile and broadcasting that to the international community in a

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Speaker 2: text to the Norwegian Prime minister.

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Speaker 1: Insane.

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Speaker 2: All of this was a pressure campaign to get Denmark

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Speaker 2: and NATO and the EU to cave, but they didn't.

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Speaker 1: They didn't.

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Speaker 2: They have remained stalwart, totally unbending to Trump's bullying. So

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Speaker 2: on Wednesday, this week at Davos, Trump retreated. He really

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Speaker 2: had no other choice. He's backing off the use of force.

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Speaker 2: He's backing off the ten percent tariffs that he was

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Speaker 2: promising to levy on Denmark and and any other European

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Speaker 2: country that supported Denmark against our annexation, which was all

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Speaker 2: of them.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to what he said yesterday at Davos.

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Speaker 4: All the United States is asking for is a place

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Speaker 4: called Greenland. We probably won't get anything unless I decide

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Speaker 4: to use excessive strength and force where we would be

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Speaker 4: frankly unstoppable. But I won't do that. Okay. Now everyone's saying,

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Speaker 4: oh good, that's probably the biggest statement I made, because

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Speaker 4: people thought I would use force. I don't have to

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Speaker 4: use force. I don't want to use force. I won't

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Speaker 4: use force.

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Speaker 2: Of course, Trump can't admit that this is like a retreat, right,

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Speaker 2: that this is a loss, So he is repackaging.

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Speaker 1: He's selling this loss as a win.

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Speaker 2: He posted that he's reached the framework of a future

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Speaker 2: deal in Greenland, whatever that means. Now, for their part,

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Speaker 2: EU and NATO leaders are saying, no, no, we didn't know

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Speaker 2: you didn't.

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Speaker 1: Nope, Nope, there's still a lot to iron out.

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Speaker 2: Nothing's been decided, and sovereignty is still totally off the table.

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Speaker 2: So nope, there's no there's no deal yet. Now some

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Speaker 2: analysts are suggesting that whatever Trump ends up getting quote

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Speaker 2: unquote you know, which could be more mineral rights, more

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Speaker 2: military basis, are things we already have and could have

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Speaker 2: easily just negotiated like a normal country, like an ally,

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Speaker 2: instead of like an absolute maniac. Now I mentioned Republican lawmakers, Well,

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Speaker 2: they are breathing a sigh of relief. That's how you

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Speaker 2: know that this was really dumb. They could not wait

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Speaker 2: for this to be over. They don't want to have

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Speaker 2: to defend Trump's hostile invasion of an allied nation.

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Speaker 1: They know how politically bad and.

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Speaker 2: Unpopular this is for Republicans in an election year, and

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Speaker 2: they viewed it as a distraction from domestic issues, which

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Speaker 2: of course it was. So in the wake of Trump

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Speaker 2: saying he was backing off the invasion idea, let me

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Speaker 2: tell you, Republican lawmakers ran ran to cameras yesterday, ran

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Speaker 2: to cameras to say, yeah, good good, We're glad, good glad.

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Speaker 2: He clarified that let's move on to other business. So look,

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Speaker 2: we'll see how this all ends. But one thing's for sure,

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Speaker 2: whatever we quote unquote get will pale in comparison to

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Speaker 2: the cost, the cost to our relationships, our allies no

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Speaker 2: longer trust or believe us, the cost to our reputation.

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Speaker 1: Are we just like imperialists?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 2: Are we the bad guys? It's all such a shame.

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Speaker 2: No one here at home voted for this, even if

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Speaker 2: they voted for Trump, and abroad our allies are wondering

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Speaker 2: who we are anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's a painful question.

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Speaker 2: I talked about this last week around Iran and Venezuela

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Speaker 2: and Minnesota, but looking at this Greenland folly, it's really

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Speaker 2: sad to think about the damage and anxiety Trump has

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Speaker 2: caused over there. And I wondered about this and how

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Speaker 2: our friends were feeling. Were they amused by all of this?

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Speaker 2: Were they worried? Were they angry? Did they dislike Trump

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Speaker 2: but still love us? Or are we all just big

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Speaker 2: bad America?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 2: I needed to know, so I reached out to a

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Speaker 2: Danish journalist. He's a family member of a very good

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Speaker 2: friend of mine because I wanted more context, and the

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Speaker 2: conversation was really illuminating, especially where it concerned NATO.

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Speaker 1: And the point of it.

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Speaker 2: As you know, in nineteen forty nine, thirty two member states,

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Speaker 2: thirty in Europe and two in North America, the US

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Speaker 2: and Canada entered into an alliance to ensure our collective security.

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Speaker 2: We all agreed to mutual defense attacked by an outside party,

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Speaker 2: and all of that's entrining in Article five of the treaty,

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Speaker 2: which will come up in the interview, and that says

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Speaker 2: that an arm attack against one should be considered an

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Speaker 2: armed attack against all. The strength of that pact, however,

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Speaker 2: has come under question, not just as Trump has been

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Speaker 2: threatening our NATO allies, putting them in a position to

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Speaker 2: wonder are we gonna have to go to war with

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Speaker 2: the US, but also because Trump's relationship with enemies, enemies

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Speaker 2: like Vladimir Putin and Russia, has made clear we might

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Speaker 2: not come to everyone's defense. And listen, Denmark is closer

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Speaker 2: to Russia than you may think. That is a concern

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Speaker 2: for them, and to have to contemplate whether the US

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Speaker 2: will honor its NATO agreement or will instead become the

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Speaker 2: enemy is a crazy thing to imagine. But that's just

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Speaker 2: what our friends are thinking about today. So don't go

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Speaker 2: anywhere my interview with Danish journalist Niel's Overguard is next.

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Speaker 2: You won't want to miss it, trust me. Welcome back

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Speaker 2: to Talking politics. Okay, now onto the interview. Niel's Overgard

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Speaker 2: is currently the head of comms for the oldest and

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Speaker 2: largest publishing house in Denmark. He's a journalist, a writer,

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Speaker 2: a public speaker, and a thought leader, and he's here

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Speaker 2: to help us contextualize all of this in a way

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Speaker 2: that I don't think American audiences are really getting a

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Speaker 2: lot of. So we're very very lucky and Nils, welcome

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Speaker 2: to Talking politics.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much. What a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: No, the pleasure and honor are mind. I'm so glad

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Speaker 1: you're here.

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Speaker 2: We obviously have terrific reporters all over Europe helping to

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Speaker 2: tell this story, but I really wanted to hear from

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Speaker 2: a Dane about how this is all going over there.

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Speaker 2: We've seen the polls, we know that Greenlanders don't want

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Speaker 2: to become part of America. But what's the attitude towards

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Speaker 2: towards Trump's desire to maybe even hostily take over the

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Speaker 2: Danish territory of Greenland.

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Speaker 6: I think it's fair to say that the past two

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Speaker 6: or three weeks has been a bit of a shock

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Speaker 6: to Danes. I think we're a very social democratic, left

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Speaker 6: leaning country to begin with political wise, so they're not

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Speaker 6: many Trump fans in Denmark to begin with, but it's

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Speaker 6: kind of been not directly relevant to Denmark whatever has

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Speaker 6: been going on with the administration. So this is the

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Speaker 6: first time probably that it's really a wake up call

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Speaker 6: to probably a new reality of some sort.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because I imagine Europe a large as used to Trump.

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Speaker 2: They're used to Trump's blustering. You know, he's not new

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Speaker 2: to Europe. But did this I imagine this felt different

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Speaker 2: to Danes because it felt very personal for the first time.

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Speaker 5: That's completely correct.

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Speaker 6: And I think that it was muted taking over Greenland

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Speaker 6: in the first administration, and it was not really taken

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Speaker 6: very seriously to it, to be honest. And I think

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Speaker 6: the whole notion that an allied of ours would try

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Speaker 6: to take some of our territory is just no one

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Speaker 6: would have thought of that like in real and that

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Speaker 6: might have been a mistake in some way to be

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Speaker 6: a little bit too to comfort, too assured. But now

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Speaker 6: it's been the last for three weeks had been absolutely

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Speaker 6: brutal for the Danish population to wake up to that reality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you were telling me earlier that it's sort

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Speaker 2: of like the water cooler conversation. What's the tone of

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Speaker 2: the conversation around the water cooler.

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Speaker 1: Is it worried? Is it like, can you believe this guy?

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Speaker 1: You know? Is it amused?

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Speaker 2: Is it what is the what's the emotion around the

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Speaker 2: talk about this?

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Speaker 6: No, I think the amusement has definitely stopped. I think

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Speaker 6: some of the stuff that's been going on has been

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Speaker 6: kind of far away from our reality, and we've been

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Speaker 6: amused and you could shake.

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Speaker 5: Your head or whatever.

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Speaker 6: But I think I think there's a level of anxiety

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Speaker 6: in the population the way I perceive it, which is

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Speaker 6: I'm not sure I personally find it necessary to be

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Speaker 6: at that level, but I think there is some level

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Speaker 6: of anxiety around the whole. And I think very much

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Speaker 6: is due to the uncertainty of the situation and you know,

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Speaker 6: what could happen.

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Speaker 5: And I don't think.

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Speaker 6: We have the imagination probably to foresee a situation like

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Speaker 6: this and how it could play out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we don't either, like we you know,

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Speaker 2: just so you were aware in America, it's not like

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Speaker 2: we know what's coming more than you guys know what's coming.

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Speaker 1: We don't. We are just as surprised.

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Speaker 2: Even those of us who cover who cover Trump and politics,

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Speaker 2: we're just as surprised every time he posts and tweets

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Speaker 2: and talks too. I'm wondering though, if one of the

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Speaker 2: effects has been sort of a rallying around Danish leadership

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Speaker 2: in a way that you know, when Canada sort of

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Speaker 2: forcefully came out against Trump's BLUs string last year, Canadians

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Speaker 2: were really pleased with their leadership for standing up for

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Speaker 2: them and talking tough to Trump. Has that been part

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Speaker 2: of this experience due very much so.

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Speaker 6: We have a government that's been sitting for three years,

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Speaker 6: which is kind of an across the aisle, a multi

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Speaker 6: party government which hasn't been very popular. It's the last

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Speaker 6: year in office that there has to be an election

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Speaker 6: in twenty twenty six. They haven't been super popular, but

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Speaker 6: it's been very and that our foreign minister who went

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Speaker 6: to the meeting with jd vance Mark Ruber last week,

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Speaker 6: there's been a really rallying about the political leadership and

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Speaker 6: very like yeah, very supportive of you kind of rally together,

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Speaker 6: and it seems like we're underpressions from the outside, so

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Speaker 6: there's a big rallying about the political leadership.

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Speaker 2: Definitely put this into some context. For me, I was

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Speaker 2: reading in Politican, one of the Danish newspapers, that there

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Speaker 2: has been You can tell me if I'm wrong, but

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Speaker 2: what I was reading there's been some resentment among some

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Speaker 2: Greenlanders that Denmark hasn't always done enough for Greenland. Can

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Speaker 2: you talk about that a little because it may help

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Speaker 2: explain why Trump thought he had a kind of angle

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Speaker 2: in here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I think it's fair to say, like many Native societies

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Speaker 6: that has been colonized, like the Native Americans, so like

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Speaker 6: the new in Alaska or Canada, that there is a

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Speaker 6: sense that Greenland hasn't always been giving the attention that

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Speaker 6: they should have, and I think most Danes would be

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Speaker 6: ready to acknowledge that. But I do also think that

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Speaker 6: for context, the way that Native Americans have been treated

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Speaker 6: Inuit societies in Alaska or Canada, I don't think they've

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Speaker 6: been better off from other Western colonializes. So in that context,

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Speaker 6: I don't think it's necessarily has been worse. But I

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Speaker 6: think there's a recognition amongst Danish society as well that

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Speaker 6: we haven't done enough, and we haven't done enough for

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Speaker 6: them in the decades.

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Speaker 2: So do you think that maybe Trump's part of Trump's

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Speaker 2: calculus was I'll go in and I'll say I'll be

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Speaker 2: your protector Greenland where the Danes and NATO and Europe

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Speaker 2: have failed. You do you think that was part of

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Speaker 2: maybe his thinking.

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Speaker 5: That could make some kind of sense.

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Speaker 6: But I do think that if they looked at the

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Speaker 6: polling numbers from Greenland and when you ask them whether

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Speaker 6: they wanted to be part of America, I wanted to

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Speaker 6: be part of DENMARKO wanted to be independent. It's been

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Speaker 6: very very strongly against the US takeover. Yes, so at

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Speaker 6: least for the numbers that we've seen so far, it

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Speaker 6: hasn't been it hasn't been greeted with, you know, it

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Speaker 6: hasn't been greeted as the big liberators. Now at the moment,

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Speaker 6: you know, things can change, but at the moment, it

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Speaker 6: seems like this very strong unity among Greenland as as well,

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Speaker 6: that they want to decide their own fate.

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Speaker 2: Sure, you know, I was horrified to see NATO send

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Speaker 2: troops into Greenland to protect it from US.

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Speaker 1: It feels like.

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Speaker 2: We are the bad guys now, and I you know,

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Speaker 2: I hope that Europeans don't see that as representative of

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Speaker 2: all of us, you know Trump's attitude. But is that

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Speaker 2: is that the view today toward the US. Are we

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Speaker 2: still seen as an as an ally? Are we trusted?

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Speaker 6: I think the I think that there's been I think

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Speaker 6: the big shock, as I've been reflecting on it, has

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Speaker 6: been the lack of trust in the country we've been

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Speaker 6: looking to for overall safety since the Second World War.

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Speaker 5: You know, we've never been in doubt for just the

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Speaker 5: brief second that.

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Speaker 6: The US would rescue us or would protect us from

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Speaker 6: from our enemies, because we've we've been under that that

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Speaker 6: that's kind of been like a mainstay in like the

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Speaker 6: Danish national politics or foreign politics since the Second World War.

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Speaker 6: So I think that's the big shock, that maybe there

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Speaker 6: is no one to protect us, and we have an

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Speaker 6: aggressive Russia to the east of us, you know, from

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Speaker 6: the Russian from Saint Petersburg. If you want to sail

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Speaker 6: out of St. Petersburg into the oceans, you have to

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Speaker 6: pass by Denmark. So we're kind of strategically geographically vulnerable

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Speaker 6: without that protection. So I think for me, I think

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Speaker 6: that's the underlying anxiety. I don't think the anxiety goes

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Speaker 6: to whether Trump will send Navy team see Seal Team

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Speaker 6: six and take our Prime minister that that's not the issue.

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Speaker 5: The issue is will.

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Speaker 6: Will someone be there for us if Russia turns more

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Speaker 6: aggressive in there in their near nearer area.

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Speaker 2: So the so the anxiety is existential, which in a

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Speaker 2: way is worse.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I think that there's there's going to be a reckon

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Speaker 6: and a realignment of our interests as and as probably

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Speaker 6: as European as well. And I think if you if

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Speaker 6: you're looking for a silver line from from a European perspective,

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Speaker 6: I think that some of the stuff that Macron said

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Speaker 6: in Divorce the other day, where we talked about the

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Speaker 6: European pride, I think it's about time that Europeans that

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Speaker 6: we look to ourselves for strength. I think since the

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Speaker 6: first Trump election, I think it's been a very it's

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Speaker 6: been a very tricky calculation, or a very dangerous calculation

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Speaker 6: that that we put the safety of our content in

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Speaker 6: the hands of like one hundred thousand swing state.

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Speaker 5: Voters in three states in the US. Yes, and maybe

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Speaker 5: that's not sustainable. And I think that's a fair point.

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Speaker 6: And I think it's been fair when Trump has said

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Speaker 6: that the Natoral allies should step up, and I think

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Speaker 6: I think it's embarrassing to think of the many years

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Speaker 6: what we haven't invested in our own defense. I think

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Speaker 6: that's I think that's shameful. On the European side, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: That's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Say more about about that, because you were telling me

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Speaker 2: earlier that you think this should be sort of a

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Speaker 2: wake up call for European interests and maybe what they've

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Speaker 2: relied on for the past, however many decades.

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Speaker 1: What would that look like for you?

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Speaker 6: The way I see it personally is that we have

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Speaker 6: to the east, you have Russia and you have China

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Speaker 6: as a rising power, very different systems from what we

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Speaker 6: call a liberal democracy, very different values and norms.

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Speaker 5: And then we have to the west.

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Speaker 6: A US has just changed so much politically that that

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Speaker 6: maybe there needs to be more of a refocusing on

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Speaker 6: on on MAGA make Europe great again instead of instead

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Speaker 6: of looking outside for for help. And I think that's

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Speaker 6: that's the conversation we need to have now as as Europeans.

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Speaker 1: Do you think NATO is in jeopardy of falling apart?

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Speaker 6: I think that that's a big question. I think that

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Speaker 6: if if article five is put into question, then you've

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Speaker 6: got to wonder, what what's the point?

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Speaker 1: What are we here for?

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Speaker 6: You ask the deterrent if if if Article five is,

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Speaker 6: it's not something that that you can rely on, and

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Speaker 6: and I I would assume that that the US would

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Speaker 6: uphold Article five.

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Speaker 5: But we'll see. It's a it's a question now.

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Speaker 6: And I think that what's said about it is and

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Speaker 6: what's weird for for all of us, I think is

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Speaker 6: the idea that the US is siding with a very

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Speaker 6: aggressive autocratic Russia over free, democratic countries is just so

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Speaker 6: weird and hard to fathom for us.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, it's hard to fathom for us too, Neils,

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Speaker 2: I really want to underscore that I am a child

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Speaker 2: of the eighties. I grew up with Reagan's Shining City

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Speaker 2: on a Hill. We were a beacon of democracy, we

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Speaker 2: were the good guys.

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Speaker 1: It's hard for us too to reconcile.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering before I let you go, if there's a

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Speaker 2: message you have to Americans, not to Trump, but to Americans,

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Speaker 2: what would that message be?

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Speaker 6: No, I think I've been thinking a lot about I

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Speaker 6: think it's very important that the people of the nations

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Speaker 6: keep visiting each other, keep going to each other's countries,

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Speaker 6: talking to people. I was in New York earlier this month.

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Speaker 6: I'll go to Texas next month, and some people in

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Speaker 6: Den Maxie I wouldn't go to Texas now, I wouldn't

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Speaker 6: go to New York.

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Speaker 5: And I'm kind of like the opposite.

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Speaker 6: I think people need to talk to people, and then

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Speaker 6: I think we should leave politics for the politicians. I

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Speaker 6: think the divisive powers are very very strong at the moment,

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Speaker 6: also in Europe, in politics, and I think that the

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Speaker 6: conversations needs to be among people because people are generally

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Speaker 6: super nice.

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Speaker 5: Also Americans, and.

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Speaker 6: I think we need to separate a little bit the

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Speaker 6: big politics from civil society.

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Speaker 2: Well, I couldn't agree more. We talk about that a

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Speaker 2: lot here on this podcast as well. And I just

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Speaker 2: want to say Neil's on behalf of most Americans, because

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Speaker 2: our polling also is very clear on this.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to do this either.

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Speaker 2: We love you, we don't want to own you, and

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Speaker 2: we're very sorry for our newly resurrected imperialism.

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Speaker 6: I think we know, and it's I think it's very

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Speaker 6: important that we separate these things.

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Speaker 5: And I've been saying that to people as well.

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Speaker 6: When they talk about my travels, I they know we

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Speaker 6: need to go and talk to people. We need to

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Speaker 6: meet people, to see Americans, the super nice guys, Republicans,

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Speaker 6: the super nice guys. You know, it's not everything is

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Speaker 6: not what we see on cable or what we see online.

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Speaker 6: We need to just have normal conversations and keep them.

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Speaker 2: Going absolutely, and this interview was a really big part

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Speaker 2: of that. Neils, it was so great to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for coming and talking to my American audience

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Speaker 2: about all of this. I think it's a really important

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Speaker 2: window into what's going on here, so I appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Thank you so much as it was a pleasure.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much to Niel's overgard and to his cousin

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Speaker 2: Lisa Gannett for putting that together for me and on

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Speaker 2: very short notice. It was a great conversation. I really

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Speaker 2: wanted to hear the other side.

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Speaker 4: Of this.

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Speaker 1: Because this is a really important point of view.

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Speaker 2: So thanks for that, and thanks to all of you

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Speaker 2: for tuning in, and we'll see you next week on

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Speaker 2: more talking politics.

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