WEBVTT - Detective Story 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.000 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. From how Stuff 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:13.720 Works dot com. It was a dark night in the 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.160 Naked City, which is probably ideal given all the nakedness. 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.360 But I wasn't concerned with a lack of clothing street 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.920 lighting in this room with troubless and needed answers about 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.200 the resident power of the detective story. So I went 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.000 to meet my man on forty two Street. What do 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.240 you got for me? I got some Raymond Chandler primo stuff, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:36.080 the Big Sleep, the Long Goodbye. I'm thinking something a 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.800 work setting or publication date, because I've got some brother 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.040 cat feels some Gordian and I'm trying to understand the 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:45.320 roots of the thing. Well, why we love it? Why 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.600 we can't get enough? Okay, I have some homes around 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.400 here somewhere, how about pose the murders in the room Morgue. 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.120 We're talking eight forty one here, a killer ap real 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.680 primo stuff. But that doesn't explain why we love it? Well, 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.200 why didn't you just say something? I think I've got 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:05.320 the perfect thing for you right here. Hey, welcome to 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:07.200 Stuff to Blow your mind. My name is Robert lamb Hi, 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:10.960 I'm Christian Seger. I hope you enjoyed our little foray 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:15.440 into radio detective drama. There, because in this episode we 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:19.200 are of course going to discuss the power of detective fiction. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:21.600 There's a little science in here, there's some culture or 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:26.120 some cultural resonance. Uh, we think you'll enjoy this journey, 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.400 this ride not unlike the journey, not unlike the ride 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:32.440 that a detective takes us on in a work of fiction. Yeah, 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:34.640 the research really panned out on this one. I like, 0:01:35.040 --> 0:01:38.680 uh that there were so many different paths that researchers 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.080 have gone down looking at how detective stories affect our 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.880 culture and our human psychology and how we come to 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.240 them as well. Yeah, and it's one of those genres 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.240 that I feel like everybody just I can pretty much 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.120 say everybody has at least dipped a toe in this 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:56.559 if if it's a you know, straight up detective novel 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.280 that you've read or some show that you've watched on television, 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.040 and every one is familiar with the trope and probably 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.680 has enjoyed it at some point in their life. Yeah, 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:07.360 So let's like just dabble into this for a little bit. 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.919 So what's your big experience with detective fiction? Oh, I mean, 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:16.840 like my earliest experiences were watching Jeremy Brett as Sherlock 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:19.840 Holmes and like my my family would sit down in 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:22.440 ones that were on PBS. Yeah, we would watch when 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.480 we were living in Canada and as a kid, that 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:27.080 would come on and we would watch those and my 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.919 dad would would would take them. Uh, we had tapes 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.680 with like, you know, three different cases per VHS and 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.679 so yeah, that was like my my earliest entry into 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:40.800 this world of detectives for sure. Yeah, Holmes is definitely 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.079 like the gateway drug for detective stories. I remember when 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.960 I was gosh, like maybe between five and seven, my 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:51.760 grandfather gave me this leather bound copy of homes Stories 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.560 that he got from he had like a subscription to 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:56.639 Reader's Digest, and I still have that. That's the like, 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.920 those those are the home stories I read whenever I 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.720 turned back to that stuff is just big tone of 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.480 of detectives. Was this the one that had the kind 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.200 of if not the original type set, then something that 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.600 was orchestrated to look Yeah, and the paper was like 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:14.360 like a kind of old tattered ridge to the side 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.080 of the everything, so it felt like you're reading like 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:18.120 a nineteenth century book. Yeah. Cool, Yeah, I think I 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.440 think we had the same volume kicking around the house, 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:22.360 and of course a great thing about detective fiction is 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:25.280 it you keep coming back to it, right, because they're 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.960 just limitless variations on it. Like like even in the 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:32.040 past few years, I really I really enjoyed a book 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:34.839 from our Scott Baker called Disciple of the Dog, which 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.920 involved a uh, a detective by the name of Disciple 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:43.960 Manning who has perfect just photographic memory, but also of 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.600 course is plagued with different personal problems and he's like 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:48.800 going up against an end of the world cult. That 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:51.160 sounds like the perfect example for one of the research 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.480 studies we're going to touch on later. But yeah, I 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.040 you know, looking back on it, I realized that I 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.920 was more influenced I think by detective fiction in tell 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.200 vision and films, and I was by literature. I think 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.400 Holmes was obviously my big starting point, and then like 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:10.280 kind of detective type genre stuff within comics, especially Batman 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.720 in the whole, like detective comics idea of Batman being like, 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.000 you know, the ultimate detective. But um, for me, it 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:21.880 was definitely uh the Thomas Harris Hannibal Lecter type stuff, 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.800 specifically with Will Graham as the detective trying to solve 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:29.599 these primes. Red Dragon. Yeah, I love the movie Red Dragon. 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.720 I love Man Hunter. Uh. Um. And and the new 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:35.920 TV show as well has been something that I've been 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.760 really into, and then just recently I've gone back and 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.760 started rewatching that nineties TV show Millennium with Lance Hendrickson. 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:45.280 Oh yes, this is from the same guy did the 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.360 X File. Yeah, Chris Carter and um. You know, it's 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:52.640 basically the same premise as as a the Will Graham character. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.320 You know, Lance Hendrickson plays this guy Frank Black who uh, 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:58.960 when he he's a profiler, when he comes across a 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.240 scene of a crime, he can see glimpses through the 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.720 killer's eyes and stuff like that. Yeah. So so very 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:07.960 similar to especially the the TV version of Will Ground 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:10.400 that we get with Hannibal. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:13.120 In fact, I'd say that that the New TV show 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.719 probably pulls a little bit from Millennium, but it's a 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:20.560 whereas Millennium I think pulls a lot from Seven from 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:24.880 the movie Seven and Uh, and that movie is a 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.520 perfect example. That's another one that I loved when I 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:29.400 was Gosh, I think it came out like my freshman 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.599 year in college. But Um, that is, that's a movie 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:37.480 that really expresses that certain kind of detective drama that's 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:40.360 just nihilistic and this view of the world. And the 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.880 detectives themselves aren't particularly geniuses. I mean, we see Morgan 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:45.720 Freeman go to the library one time and read a 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.680 bunch of things about religion. But other than that, you know, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:50.919 they're not like they're not like Sherlock Holmes solving this 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.599 stuff on the fly, you know. Of course, another great 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:57.960 example of detective fiction and film is is probably Blade Runner, 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:02.160 because that's one that I feel, especially on a visual level, 0:06:02.200 --> 0:06:05.520 like really resonates with everyone, and it drew from you know, 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.880 sort of classic motifs as well as a new kind 0:06:08.880 --> 0:06:14.000 of cyberpunk vibe. Yeah. Yeah, Blade Runner, like more than 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.880 I think a lot of things that are called noir nowadays, 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:21.640 incorporates the genre of noir into science fiction. Now. Obviously, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:23.960 we could keep going just talking about like the various 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:26.480 detective stories that you and I have read and the 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.960 film variations, um, and as well as just all the 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:32.719 stuff that's out there and in the popular culture, because 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:34.640 it seems like every other TV show is some sort 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:39.280 of police procedural or some sort of detective story that's 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:41.880 going on. You could just name them one after another, 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.840 but at heart, like, what is the what are the 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:49.839 basics of the detective story. Yeah, there's something inherently comforting 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.760 about the detective story, whether it's on TV or you're 0:06:52.760 --> 0:06:56.080 reading just like a pulpy paperback novel. But essentially, what 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:59.320 we're talking about here is crime fiction that centered around 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:03.400 a single investigation, which is almost always a murder. Right, 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:08.000 every every investigator, a police officer, is a homicide detective 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.000 in these because that's the most serious, right, that's the 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:14.320 most potent, life shattering, existential thing you could possibly look exactly. 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:16.760 They're not like usually going after an arsonist, although that's 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:19.240 pretty serious as well. You know, you're breaking the law. 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:21.760 You're also just like the law in a legal sense, 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.200 but also in a moral sense, you've committed a crime 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.040 and to God. Yeah, and there's a there's an aspect 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.320 to murder as well that plays into the aesthetics of 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.880 the detective drama that we'll get into later, but in particular, 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:37.440 you know, there's this idea that they are a professional 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:42.480 that's usually outside of the institutions of law somehow, you know, 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:46.200 like Sherlock Holmes for instance, was a private investigator. He didn't, 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.200 he wasn't a part of the police force, he didn't 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:50.560 work for Scotland Yard And and in a lot of 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.640 the examples that we were just talking about, all those 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:57.760 all those various characters Will Graham, Frank Black, uh Decker 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:00.920 from Blade Runner, they're all operating on their own, outside 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.800 of the system, even though there's somewhat connected to it. Yeah. Yeah, 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.760 like the so many of our detectives. There at least 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.400 if they are still on the force and still part 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.200 of beneficial system, then they're there. There may be a 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.480 little bit dirty, or at least they're damaged by what 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.640 they're having to deal with. Yeah. Absolutely, Which, Okay, one 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.120 last example here, which I think we should get into 0:08:20.480 --> 0:08:23.360 a True Detective, which was huge last year when it 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:25.800 came out. I don't know about you, but I was 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.280 massively influenced by it. It's one of the best things 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.480 that I've ever seen, just completely television fiction. Yeah, and 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:35.920 uh and obviously, you know, without giving anything away, that 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:39.360 story is very much about guys who are part of 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.720 the police force but are just torn to shreds by 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.840 you know, the things that they see in the the 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.959 drama of this murder that they're trying to solve. It's 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:51.120 a serious of murders, that's right, And new season kicking 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:53.560 off I think this weekend. So yeah, cross your fingers. 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.760 I really hope that it's good too. Yeah, We've we've 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.679 had some The first trailer that came out was a 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.280 little uh, felt a little off uh. And then when 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:05.040 we learned that there wasn't going to be an occult 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.800 um theme in this one, that was also maybe a 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:11.360 little disappointing to some of us. But I think it's 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.240 in a lot of ways, it's going to be like, um, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.760 the whatever, the follow up to Mad Max Fury Road 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.800 is right, like the criticism the praise has been so 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.280 high for that and and was so high for season 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.200 one of True Detective, that no matter what happens, people 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:30.240 are going to be critical of it and and find 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:32.160 a reason for to kind of shoot it down, you know. 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:34.800 But I'm hoping to have, you know, like we're talking 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.080 about here that just like the fun experience of a 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:41.240 detective ride, but also something that will statiate me sort 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:43.640 of intellectually. Yeah, and you know, he said there wasn't 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.439 gonna be anything occult in this particular season, but he 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.760 didn't see anything about aliens. So I'm holding out hope 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.360 that alien invasion in California is going to be the 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.040 subplot here that sounds to about halfway. It sounds like 0:09:55.080 --> 0:10:00.720 a perfect use of Colin Farrell and Rachel McAdams um. 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:04.760 But indeed, the detective story oftentimes centers around murder. You 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.840 could you could even make a case that one of 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:11.480 the oldest, if not the oldest detective stories out there, 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.920 with its roots and in the Bible and pre biblical sources, 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.240 is that of kine Enabel, right, right, And we were 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.160 talking about this earlier and my reaction was really the 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.640 detective And to give your answer, I think it's intriguing. Yeah, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:28.480 the the detective here is God, etective God on the scene. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.040 And granted he doesn't even have a very hard case 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.640 because there's one suspect, period and they're what you know, 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:36.800 they're they're they're only a handful of people in the 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:40.880 world in this particular scenario. So God comes on the 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.520 scenes that a Caine who killed Abel, and then he 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:45.880 nails him for the crime. Right, Yeah, it's not it's 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:47.720 a it's a one and done who done it? Yeah, 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.360 and judges him dishes out punishment like everything is. We'll 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.080 discuss like there's a lot in the Cane enable uh 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.959 story that uh that is that is kind of that 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:59.360 distilled detective story. Yeah, and plays out over the centuries. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.600 Is detective stories go on? But so I think like 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.000 the one that really kicked things off though, for like 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.960 the the current genre that we think of would be 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:11.000 Edgar Allen Poe's Murders of the Room Morgue are sorry 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:14.280 Murders in the Room Morgue, which we reference to the intro. Yeah, 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.880 that was one and uh and that one, that one 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:20.640 is often cited as being one of the really early 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:25.240 key detective stories that that that that really influences everything 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:29.400 to come there after. And there's this surge in the 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:32.600 mid to late nineteenth century with detective stories, right, I mean, 0:11:32.640 --> 0:11:35.280 Poe really kicks it off, but that's when you get 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:38.960 you know, kind of Doyle and Sherlock Holmes and and 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.880 and and lots of others. Also early twentieth century as well, 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:48.440 with Agatha Christie, G. K. Chesterson, Uh what else? Oh, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.240 I mean, yeah, the list goes on and on. Chandler 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:55.120 and Dashel Hammett, Yeah, the the the Philip Marlowe books, 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.360 which I read one of those and and really loved it, 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.280 and I keep meaning to pick up more because yeah, 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.480 I've read a lot Chandler's short stories, but I've never 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:06.000 read the Marlowe stuff. Yeah it's good. It's good. Um yeah, 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:08.720 and you you do see kind of I mean, certainly, 0:12:08.760 --> 0:12:12.040 detective fiction is almost has a viral consistency because it 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:14.320 it spreads out. It starts as this kind of you know, 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.960 the classic Golden Age stuff, which is which is often 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.920 all about like a very intellectual individual using their intellect 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:24.560 to solve this crime. Uh, and then it, you know, 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:27.320 it spreads into different countries and in different cultures and 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:31.679 then into different sub genres, etcetera. Of course, the the 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:34.559 the the the hard boiled detective fiction becomes really big 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.000 in the United States, which is and it kind of 0:12:37.000 --> 0:12:39.680 takes off as its own thing, and that's very different 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:42.120 from what we're thinking of as this sort of traditional 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.680 nineteenth century detective drama where hard boiled detectives or you know, 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.000 they've always got that self narration kind of like you know, 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.840 the gritty It was a dark and stormy night, and 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:56.280 everybody's corrupt, the all organizations are corrupt. And there's this 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.760 cycle of violence that the detective finds themselves trapped within 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:01.959 their almost like an anti hero, right yeah. And it's 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:05.480 it's less a matter of like one intellect against the problem. 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.520 It's it's like the detectives and the hard boiled fiction. 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:12.040 They tend to be as much gut and heart and 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:16.720 lust I guess too, as they tangle with various fin fatales. Right, yeah, exactly, 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.240 fim fatals spent out of that. We've also got, you know, 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.719 coming up on I don't know, I wonder when the 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:27.320 police procedural officially started. Do you think the seventies? Uh? Well, 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:29.319 I mean you probably earlier than that, right, because you 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.000 have like dragnet and stuff. Yeah, I guess right. Dragnet 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.480 was what late sixties? Yeah, I think so, okay, so yeah, 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:38.320 but police procedurals are everywhere now. I mean it's like 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.400 every time I don't have cable, but anytime I'm like 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.400 at a hotel or something and I flip through the channels, 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:46.880 it's like of TV is uh, shows with acronyms that 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:50.920 I don't understand that are about various detective solving crimes yea, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.480 And those are I guess they're more almost a return 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.880 to the the intellectual detective in a sense, because here 0:13:56.960 --> 0:13:59.960 is the you know, they have individuals, of course, individ 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:01.800 characters in the shows, but it seems to be more 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:04.959 about here is a system, and here's a science, and 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:08.080 the system and the science works, and it works in 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:10.680 a ways of course on TV that it doesn't actually 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.080 in real lite, right absolutely. Yeah. I had a big 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.000 wake up call with that when I served as former 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.480 on a jury duty and they had a forensic expert 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.000 coming and present to the jury as they often do 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.400 in cases, and it was nothing like like C S 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.240 I or any of those things, and even you know, 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.800 the expert themselves, so there wasn't a lot of uh 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.520 certainty with the science that they were performing. But that 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:34.640 that's a whole another episode, which I think it would 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:38.520 be fun to talk about. Forensic science is fascinating, but yeah, 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.680 I mean we're surrounded by police procedurals. I think serial 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:43.680 killer mysteries like we've been you know we were talking 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.640 about earlier, those are kind of my jam the millennial 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:50.200 type stuff for Hannibal Lecter, Like there's a there's a 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.840 popularity of that right now, probably since the nineties. I 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.600 would say, um, seven maybe kicked that off, although you know, 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.960 you could go back further that Thomas Harris stuff started 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:03.000 in the eighties, I think so, yeah, yeah, and then 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.280 uh yeah, there are a number of books that kind 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:08.960 of Another one is Falling Angel by William Hortsburg. I 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:13.000 don't know that one. Um. William Hortsburgh wrote the screenplay 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:17.760 to legend and then Falling Angels made into the fairly 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.320 lackluster in my opinion film Angel Heart with Mickey Rourke 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:23.840 and Robert de Niro. I have heard about Angel Hart, 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.520 but I've never seen it. Okay, yeah, the book the 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.880 books look pretty fun though, because it's very much this 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:34.280 uh this hard boiled detective story but with satanic elements. Okay, 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:36.600 sounds right at my alley. All Right, I'll check it out. 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.320 So forgive this. We're gonna continue to get a little 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:43.680 off topic talking about various examples of the detective genre here, 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:49.400 but to return to the mid eighteen hundreds, particularly to 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.960 the eighteen sixties, because that's when you really see the 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:57.160 boom happen like full force. Um. And there are a 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.640 number of interesting factors to take into accoun about the 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.840 eighteen sixties. UM. First of all, industrialization and the growth 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:06.800 of literacy. You have more people than ever that are 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:09.640 able to read. You have new machinery that's pumping out 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:12.720 more books than ever. They're sold in stalls that you're 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:15.280 you know, your local metro station, and you have a 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:18.080 growing population of readers who tend to go for more 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.960 sensational content, more entertaining content, rather than you know, upper 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:24.400 crust stuff. This is so we're talking books for the 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.600 middle class. Um, yeah, and I think that there's a 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.360 there's a connection there too. We're gonna talk about the 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.480 influence of religion on the detective story, and there's a 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:40.360 connection there's certainly between the emergence of literacy and the 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:44.880 lower classes and the availability of books too pretty much anybody, 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.600 and that the connection of sort of roles of religion 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:55.000 shifting away from the church into detective stories. Indeed, um, 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.080 you know, and granted at the time as well, you 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.800 actually had real detectives out there, you know, there were Um, 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.760 it was about this time that the Metropolitan Police in 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:08.560 London created its detective branch. Um it was two but 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:12.359 in the eighteen sixties there was one particular case in 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.480 which you had Jack Whicher of the Detective Branch making 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:20.960 headlines investigating a sensational child murder. That's a great, great name. 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:24.520 I mean, you couldn't make that, which Jack Witcher does. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:26.720 Yeah you could. It sounds made up, but this is 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:31.600 the dude's name. Every time Jack Witcher gets his name. Yeah, 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:34.280 but yeah, I don't know if if he did. But yeah, 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:36.560 I'm not sure how the case actually turned out. I'm 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:38.880 curious to know. But but in a way it's I mean, 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:40.800 the key here was that it ended up in the headlines, 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:43.520 and so people were were fascinated by the story of 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.040 this real life detective. And we have all the crime 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.640 fiction popping up as well. And then, as you mentioned 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:52.600 on the religion angle, um, there's a strong case to 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.240 be made and it's made rather elegantly, I think by 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.920 crime writer Jason Webster in two thousand fifteen Ian mag 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:04.120 As an article titled Unholy Mystery, and essentially he argues 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.160 that the that the modern detective serves as a sort 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:11.120 of secular shaman um he or she is the priest, 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.840 the inter mediary between God and man, between truth and man. Uh. 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.560 That can no longer exist entirely within the religious world 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.359 because our world view continues to break free from the 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.440 shackles of religious thinking. I really like this idea. It's 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:31.120 something that I had been thinking about independently, not particularly 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.480 about detectives, but about storytelling in general, that that fiction, 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.600 modern day fiction especially sort of serves the same role 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.840 that a shaman or a priest used to serve in 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.960 a small kind of microcosm community like we used to 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.680 think of. And Uh, this this, this definitely plays out 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.560 in his uh, his thesis, I guess for this piece, right, 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.920 he talks about how detectives like shamans are the problem 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.359 solvers for their community. There's somebody who can restore order 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.760 when there's chaos. Uh. They give us answers. This is 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.280 a quote directly from his piece. They give us answers 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:05.640 to the most pressing and urgent questions, not only who 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:08.520 done it, but how and why and what the means 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:12.000 are and uh, and all of it's done through the journey, right, 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.520 which we which we brought up earlier. It's a it's 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.560 all about the journey. That's the that's the fun experience 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:19.920 of it. I would this is gonna be a weird connection, 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.960 but I'd liken it to watching a cooking show actually, like, 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:27.520 like there's pleasure in watching people bake a cake on TV. 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.919 They're going through all the steps putting the ingredients together 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:33.280 and the thing comes out right. And the detective story 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.920 is very similar, and that the detectives going through this 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.359 journey collecting this evidence, seeking out hints and clues, and 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:42.520 then getting the bad guy. Yeah, I mean, like the 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.719 best detective fiction often involves like all the pieces are 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:48.000 out there for us to see, you can't put it together. 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.080 In a way, We're looking at that table of ingredients 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:52.280 and saying, I can't imagine what this is possibly going 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:55.199 to turn into, and then the detective, the cook comes in, 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:57.920 turns into a cake and you're like, whoa, it was 0:19:57.960 --> 0:20:00.800 there all along. I was essentially looking at a k exactly. 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:02.960 And those are the best kind, right, or at least 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.040 that's how I experience it. Like the best ones are 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.600 the ones where you you don't figure it out on 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.200 your own. It's not like a Scooby Doo episode. Scooby 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:15.920 Doo the hallmark of detective fiction for our generation, where 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.680 you know, pretty much from the first five minutes into 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.960 a Scooby Doo episode, you're like, okay, and it's the 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:24.920 you know, amusement park owner wearing a mask pretending to 0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:26.840 be the real estate agent or something. I'm glad you 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:29.000 brought up Scooby Doo that because really, before I watched 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:32.159 Herlock Holmes, I was watching Scooby Doo. I was watching 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:36.080 these little mystery stories. Yeah, it's funny, Like I think 0:20:36.119 --> 0:20:37.760 at the time, I never really thought of them as 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.479 detective stories, but they certainly are right there playing around 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.359 with that. And but that now the stuff that I 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:46.680 enjoy is true detective right, Like, remember when the first 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:50.680 season was playing and social media was going insane trying 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:54.120 to figure out who was responsible, what was going on, where, 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.960 where the story was going, you know, and and everyone 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:01.200 was wrong basically, uh, and that was satisfying in some way, 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.479 especially you know, there was a nice bow put on 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:06.280 it at the end. A lot of people really wanted 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.440 that Scooby Doo moment where the mask was ripped off, 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:11.440 but it wasn't really provided. Yeah, but let's talk a 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.679 little bit more about this shaman thing here. So the 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:18.560 industrialization part is definitely connected to this, I think. So 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:23.000