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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Hello, my friends, coming

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Speaker 1: to you a little bit different today. UM actually in

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Speaker 1: a hotel room in Los Angeles, getting ready to do

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Speaker 1: an episode of Dr Phil. We need to talk about

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Speaker 1: the affidavit today. Talk about some of the forensic aspects here,

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Speaker 1: talk about what the police might be looking for, what

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Speaker 1: they might have, and what is yet to be uncovered.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. Guys.

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Speaker 1: I have been on more media outlets than I can

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Speaker 1: count over the past I don't know, six weeks. I

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Speaker 1: am so incredibly grateful that I have got my friend

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Speaker 1: who I consider one of my best friends in the world,

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Speaker 1: Jackie Howard, the executive producer for Nancy Grace's Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Jackie is joining me right now. She's in her studio.

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Speaker 1: I'm here in l A Jackie. Wow, do we have

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Speaker 1: a lot of information to go through? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I actually thought that we would

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Speaker 1: get this much out of this nineteen page document that dropped,

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Speaker 1: but it landed in our laps, and boy is it is?

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Speaker 1: It really causing a lot of people to stop and

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Speaker 1: think and reconsider a lot of positions I think it's

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Speaker 1: something that you and I should have a chat about today.

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Speaker 1: What do you think? Well, I think that you started

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Speaker 1: out with some wonderful brownie points there, Joe, So thanks.

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Speaker 1: But yes, there's a lot of information to unfold. The

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Speaker 1: first thing I want to talk about, though, is how

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Speaker 1: much do you think that the police learned that was

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Speaker 1: not included in what was released? Well, I think you

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Speaker 1: have to start off at the baseline. You know, they

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Speaker 1: they only require as much as is needed to get

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Speaker 1: this thing before judge to draw up and arrest warrant. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so they're they're not They are not revealing everything that

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Speaker 1: they have. Trust me, this is only the tip of

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Speaker 1: the iceberg. And boy, what a volume of information that

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Speaker 1: they have presented us with. We we've got everything from DNA,

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Speaker 1: We've got we've got pinks relative to the movement of

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger and his cell phone. We've got CCTV footage.

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Speaker 1: The list goes on and on. We we've got trace evidence.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you think about footprints and all of

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things that have that have come to light,

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Speaker 1: and probably for me, what is uh most defining is

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Speaker 1: we've got sheath Jackie we've got a knife sheath, if

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Speaker 1: memory serves me right, you called that saying if they

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Speaker 1: can find that sheath, they're set with DNA, and you

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Speaker 1: obviously we're right. So the DNA that was found was

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Speaker 1: found one spot on that knife sheath. It was a

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Speaker 1: k bar as we know have been talking about for

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Speaker 1: quite some time now, but the sheath DNA was found

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Speaker 1: in one spot on the clip, the snap clip. I'm wondering,

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Speaker 1: do we know where that DNA came from? Was it

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Speaker 1: blood DNA or is it just skin cell DNA? Hard

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Speaker 1: to say. It truly is hard to say, and we

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Speaker 1: don't have enough in from We do know that there

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Speaker 1: is a specific linkage to the suspect and that that's

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Speaker 1: important at least at this juncture. We will find out

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Speaker 1: more what the sourcing of that DNA is. There are

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Speaker 1: many people that have openly opined that this is probably

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Speaker 1: gonna be touched DNA, and we've talked about touch DNA

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Speaker 1: before on bodybacks, but just kind of revisit this very

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Speaker 1: very briefly. We sluf thousands and thousands of skin cells,

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Speaker 1: and the reason you sleft them is that they're dead,

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Speaker 1: and so the the DNA strand or that it's just

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Speaker 1: a partial of a strand that's contained within what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as touch DNA. So when you you find that

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Speaker 1: bit of DNA, you have to go back in the

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Speaker 1: lab and kind of reconstruct a DNA. But it was

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Speaker 1: sufficient enough to the task that when they did recover

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Speaker 1: the d n A, they were able to develop a

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Speaker 1: profile that eventually, you know, within I don't know ninety

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Speaker 1: nine point nine nine eight, I think percentage points is

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Speaker 1: likely him. Uh and that that's big. But yeah, that

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Speaker 1: that that gives us an idea that he actually had contact,

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Speaker 1: he had physical contact with a sheath. Some people say, ah, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't matter that that could come from anywhere. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's fine. Yeah, I'll give you that it could. It could.

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Speaker 1: He could have picked it up. I've heard some people

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Speaker 1: say he could have picked it up at a knife

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Speaker 1: and gun show and just handle the thing. And they're

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Speaker 1: calling it a button snap is actually what they're calling it,

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Speaker 1: and he maybe he actuated the button snap looking it

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Speaker 1: back and forth, just seeing Okay, that's a starting spot,

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Speaker 1: that's not the ending spot. Okay, and that's important here.

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Speaker 1: That was my question because let me let me jump

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Speaker 1: in on you. That was my question. If this knife

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Speaker 1: sheath belonged to Brian Hoburger, wouldn't they have found his

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Speaker 1: DNA on more spots than just that clip? Possibly? But

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Speaker 1: could he have worn gloves and taking those gloves off,

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Speaker 1: or could he have manipulated that knife sheath prior to

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Speaker 1: putting gloves on, wipe down the rest of the knife sheath,

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Speaker 1: but forgot to wipe off that specific area. Do you see?

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Speaker 1: There's so many there's so many possibilities here that we

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Speaker 1: don't know the dynamic of it. We don't know how

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Speaker 1: much he's handled this thing. We don't know if the

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Speaker 1: sheath is new, if this is something he just went

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Speaker 1: out and picked up and bought. Why isn't there other

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Speaker 1: people's DNA on this scene? Maybe there are unknowns on here.

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Speaker 1: We never know at this point because they haven't given

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Speaker 1: us that information. You know, you have to figure if

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Speaker 1: he let's just say he went to a stall at

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Speaker 1: a gun show and he bought this from somebody, Well

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Speaker 1: just think about the person that was selling it to him,

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Speaker 1: had to handle the thing and would hand it over

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Speaker 1: to him, would have manipulated it in some way. Well,

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Speaker 1: they don't say anything about unknowns that might be on

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Speaker 1: the exterior of the sheath. They only talked about that

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Speaker 1: one linkage that goes back to the accused that I

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Speaker 1: think that that's significant here. And again, we don't know

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Speaker 1: what the sourcing of the d n A is. You know,

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Speaker 1: we had mentioned touch DNA. You know, you can get

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Speaker 1: DNA that derives from you know, a multiple multiple sources.

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Speaker 1: You know, we can have sweat, you can get saliva,

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Speaker 1: you can get blood among other things. You know that

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Speaker 1: that emanate from our body essentially um and and so

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Speaker 1: we don't know specifically what the source is at this

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Speaker 1: particular time. Uh. And I think another big question is

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Speaker 1: is it possible that there might be blood on the sheet?

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Speaker 1: Is it possible? Yeah, that it is possible that there

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Speaker 1: could be blood, and it might not necessarily be his blood,

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Speaker 1: the accused. It might be the victims blood because it

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Speaker 1: was laying there in the bed. It wasn't laying on

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Speaker 1: the floor according to what they're saying. It was laying

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Speaker 1: there in the bed, So that that's kind of interesting

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Speaker 1: as well. Was there any other kind of tram us

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Speaker 1: for evidence that was found on that sheath from any

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Speaker 1: of the victims into bed now hair Uh, any kind

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Speaker 1: of body fluids from them, including blood, anything that might

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Speaker 1: be linkage to tie that back. It's not just one

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Speaker 1: person that you're considering when you're looking at unknown sample.

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Speaker 1: You consider everybody that's kind of in the orbit of

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Speaker 1: of this environment at this particular time, and all of

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Speaker 1: these are gonna be key that will develop profiles on

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Speaker 1: all of these people, UH moving forward, they're also going

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Speaker 1: to talk about anybody that may have handled this sheath

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Speaker 1: prior to UH Coburger having purchased it, if it was

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Speaker 1: a recent purchase for instance, UM, and they will develop

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Speaker 1: those as well if they find those unknown sources, and

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Speaker 1: they'll try to track those down as well. Again, what's

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Speaker 1: the beauty of this, Jackie, is the fact that if

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Speaker 1: you have all of these other people that have touched it,

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Speaker 1: it's not just a matter of him physically touching the

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Speaker 1: knife and it being there at the scene. If you

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Speaker 1: have unknown DNA that you can tie back to other

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Speaker 1: people that are in his peripheral past, you can kind

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Speaker 1: of track the movement of that knife through time. You know,

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Speaker 1: if he went to purchase this thing, UM, you know

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Speaker 1: you can find it famously. You know, there's there's been

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Speaker 1: a number of cases, for instance, involving sexual assault, where

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Speaker 1: there be a pair of underwear and you will actually

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Speaker 1: find touch DNA on the surface of a package of

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Speaker 1: a previously packaged pair of underwear that was packaged in

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Speaker 1: maybe Southeast Asia somewhere, and you'll find somebody's DNA on

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Speaker 1: it that handled it in a factory. Just let that

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Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. So the possibilities here

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Speaker 1: are kind of mind blowing when you think about it.

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Speaker 1: What is the volume of DNA that we're talking about here,

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Speaker 1: and how much would have been needed to match up

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Speaker 1: with the evidence taken from his Sylvania home. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think that that that evidence from the Pennsylvania home is

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Speaker 1: probably going to be very rich. Uh if if you

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Speaker 1: consider that, Uh, let's just think about it. If you're

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Speaker 1: talking about napkins, if you're talking about like cups that

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Speaker 1: he may have placed to his lips, you know, anything

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Speaker 1: that would be an intimate contact with him. And when

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Speaker 1: you think about a trash bag and how we discard things,

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Speaker 1: you know, in trash bags, were throwing stuff away and

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Speaker 1: it's all kind of getting jumbled up in there. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there will be quite a number of things that will

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Speaker 1: come back to him. Certainly certainly there will be things

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Speaker 1: in there that will come back to his familial grouping.

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Speaker 1: And again that's significant, right if you can tie that

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Speaker 1: one bit of DNA that they found on this button

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Speaker 1: snap back to this home all the way over two

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Speaker 1: thousand miles away in Pennsylvania, in Poconos, well, that's that's

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a big piece of circumstantial slash physical

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Speaker 1: evidence that you have there. If you're going to move

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Speaker 1: forward with this and go to court with it, you know,

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Speaker 1: how how how can you explain that away? And it's

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Speaker 1: it's very very difficult. But my question is, given the

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Speaker 1: amount of DNA that we are led to believe they

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Speaker 1: pulled off of this sheet, it seems to be very

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Speaker 1: very small. So does that matter? I mean, is that

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Speaker 1: going to give Well obviously it did, but is that

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Speaker 1: going to give um forensic investigators enough to say with

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Speaker 1: you know, beyond a reasonable doubt that they matched. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's certainly more than enough. We're talking, you know,

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Speaker 1: at a molecular level here. That's how strong the connectivity is.

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Speaker 1: So it takes very little. It takes very very little, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: very very little. And you know, let's think about your

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Speaker 1: already Okay, we're already kind of a bit behind the

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Speaker 1: eight ball. Would touch DNA because it's not a complete

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Speaker 1: strand because you know, like I said, it's coming from

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Speaker 1: a dead skin cell. It's slepting off. Assuming that that

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Speaker 1: that it is touched DNA, of course it could be

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Speaker 1: you know, a number of other things as well. We

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Speaker 1: don't have enough information right now, but it does not

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Speaker 1: require a tremendous amount of sample in order to work

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Speaker 1: back through this. For these DNA scientists who are just

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Speaker 1: incredibly brilliant and the technology they have at their disposal, Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's uh, it's daunting when you're staring down the barrel

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Speaker 1: of this as a defense team. The father of Kaylee Gonzolvis,

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Speaker 1: has mentioned that his daughter's wounds were different than the

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Speaker 1: other victims, saying that she had gouges in her body.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious whether or not we would be likely to

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Speaker 1: see defensive wounds on either person that could be definitively

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Speaker 1: defined as they were trying to defend the other person. Well, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and okay, here here's here's something that you have to consider.

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Speaker 1: At this point, we don't know what position Mattie and

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Speaker 1: Kaylie were actually in in this bed. We know that

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Speaker 1: they were in the bed together and to your point,

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Speaker 1: you know, was was one huddled over the other in

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Speaker 1: a defensive posture attempting to defend against any kind of

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Speaker 1: strikes by the accused. Uh? Is that is that what

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Speaker 1: we're talking about? Or were they both lyned in what

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Speaker 1: would be considered quote unquote a normal sleeping posture, you know,

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Speaker 1: face up, facedown or on their sides. You had mentioned

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Speaker 1: earlier that it's it's really hard, I think for many

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Speaker 1: of us to even think that a stabbing could have

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Speaker 1: taken place without one person having been aware of it.

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Speaker 1: You know, how how do you get past that? You know,

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Speaker 1: because this is not like a gunshot wound, where uh

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Speaker 1: it's sudden and you might have I don't know, a

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Speaker 1: pretty quick death. Um, there would be pain associated with it.

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Speaker 1: There would have been an awareness at a very primal level.

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Speaker 1: You know, you would think that a scream would have

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Speaker 1: emanated a reaction of some kind. I think that it

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Speaker 1: would be speculative at best for forensic pathologists to be

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Speaker 1: able to get upon the stand and say, yet, this

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Speaker 1: person was defending the other person from you know, an aggressor.

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Speaker 1: Based upon the examination of the wounds and again these

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Speaker 1: comments that the father is making, UM, I I have

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Speaker 1: a a difficult time kind of measuring out how much

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Speaker 1: information he knows about the injuries on the other victims.

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Speaker 1: Has he's spoken with the family members of other victims

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Speaker 1: and they've described injuries to him, and he's been able

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Speaker 1: to kind of compare and contrast, if you will. That

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Speaker 1: that's that's that's very interesting that he can make that statement,

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Speaker 1: you know, and he uses the term gauges and that's

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Speaker 1: not something that's generally associated with UM forensic pathology. UM.

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Speaker 1: So that that's not something that a a forensic pathologist

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Speaker 1: or trained corner would say. We would not say, well,

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Speaker 1: they have gauge marks on them. Now, I think a broader,

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Speaker 1: broader thought here is was he able to see her

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Speaker 1: remains at the funeral home? And if that's the case,

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Speaker 1: he could be assessing this in his own in his

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Speaker 1: own way, I think famously. You know, he made one

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Speaker 1: of the early initial comments when he was given a

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Speaker 1: press conference, he alluded to this interesting construct and where

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Speaker 1: he said, I paid for that. I paid for that.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what he meant by that. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know was he talking about the funeral. Was he talking

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Speaker 1: about the funeral? Did he go to the funeral home

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Speaker 1: prior to his daughter's body being prepared and he saw

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Speaker 1: the remains? So I don't know, I don't know where

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Speaker 1: this is kind of bubbling up from. And um, I

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Speaker 1: would I think I'd be interested in seeing what the

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Speaker 1: actual forensic pathologist has to say about this case and

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Speaker 1: about everything that's connected to it in order to, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of assess these injuries, because look, I mean, he's

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Speaker 1: a dad, He's gonna be very very emotional over this,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know what he is saying and what

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Speaker 1: contexts he's saying this in at the scene of a death, anything,

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Speaker 1: and I mean anything that is particularly an indoor scene,

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Speaker 1: anything that is in that residence, in that structure, has

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Speaker 1: value because you just never know, you never know where

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Speaker 1: the road is going to lead. From an evidentiary standpoint.

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Speaker 1: With that said, I would argue, I would argue that perhaps,

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Speaker 1: aside from the evidence that the bodies contain, one of

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Speaker 1: the most important things, one of the most important things

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Speaker 1: here are the mattresses that these bodies were found upon.

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Speaker 1: Because you're you're gonna learn a lot, You're gonna learn

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Speaker 1: so much from the surfaces of these mattresses. You're gonna

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Speaker 1: learn so much from perhaps the interior of these mattresses.

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Speaker 1: It's uh, it is what we would term an evidence

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Speaker 1: rich environment. Well, I had a big lightbulb go off

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Speaker 1: over my head, Joe as we all watched as investigators

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Speaker 1: removed those mattresses. Is from the halt those mattresses, it

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Speaker 1: looked like they were inside I know, I would have

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Speaker 1: I guess a huge evidence bag or a mattress bag

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Speaker 1: or something. But they were loaded into the back of

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Speaker 1: a pickup truck. And the first thing that went through

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Speaker 1: my head was that's not how Joe Scott would do it.

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Speaker 1: Am I right, Yes, you're absolutely right. And this goes

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Speaker 1: back two valuable sentimental objects that were released from the

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Speaker 1: scene already. You know, so you're releasing these items from

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Speaker 1: the scene that quote unquote have sentimental value. Whatever that means.

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Speaker 1: I have no idea what that means. Okay, but yet

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Speaker 1: you're going to keep these mattresses within the environment and

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Speaker 1: having not secured them to point where you're going to

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Speaker 1: remove them to be analyzed. Because here this is the key,

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00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:09,040
Speaker 1: pay very close attention to be analyzed at the lab.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna leave them in there. I don't I don't

292
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Speaker 1: understand that most of the time when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: mattresses that are involved in uh homicides like this, that

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Speaker 1: are arguably blood soaked, all right, contained a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of physical evidence that's going out the door to the

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Speaker 1: crime lab like immediately, like that night, you're gonna make arrangements,

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Speaker 1: they're gonna be taken away. And yeah, um I saw it,

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Speaker 1: and my jawhead floor when I was I was looking,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking, wait, am I am I actually seeing this?

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Speaker 1: When I saw the footage of a mattress being placed

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Speaker 1: into the back of a pickup truck. And granted, it

302
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Speaker 1: appears to be in and it's enveloped in something, all right,

303
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Speaker 1: in some kind of of you know, container of some

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Speaker 1: type a pouch if you will, to get it to

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Speaker 1: the crime lab. But you're gonna put it in the

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Speaker 1: back of a pickup truck. That's that's what we're doing. Now.

307
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Speaker 1: You're not going to have a van, You're not gonna

308
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Speaker 1: have some other resource that you can place this thing

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Speaker 1: in where it's protected from the elements completely and transported

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Speaker 1: to the lab. At that point, I don't understand the

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Speaker 1: rationale behind that because the mattresses have fragile evidence on them.

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Speaker 1: You know, obviously we're talking about DNA, but we're also

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Speaker 1: talking about things like hair and fiber, and we're also

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Speaker 1: talking about the potential for tool marks. So what do

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Speaker 1: you mean by that, Well, let's just say that these

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Speaker 1: mattresses were the surface that the victims were lying upon.

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Speaker 1: If the perpetrator did not land the knife strike on

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Speaker 1: the body and missed and it went into the mattress,

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Speaker 1: then now you're transferring whatever was on the surface of

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Speaker 1: that knife to the interior of the mattress. So now

321
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Speaker 1: you're getting down into substratum of the mattress. So you've

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Speaker 1: got this very dynamic environment that these attacks are occurring

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Speaker 1: in one of the biggest areas for evidence capture. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be on the surface of this mattress and

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Speaker 1: potentially the interior of this mattress. So I was left,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of with my mouth open, you know,

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Speaker 1: really really trying to understand what their purpose was and

328
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Speaker 1: removing them so late and after the fact, well, and

329
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Speaker 1: looking at the news coverage, the mattresses were not removed

330
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Speaker 1: until about a month after the last time the investigators

331
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Speaker 1: were last seen taking items out of the home for

332
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: that reason, and then questioning them how they moved them. Obviously,

333
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Speaker 1: some of these investigators are seasoned investigators, so I'm sure

334
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Speaker 1: that there was a plan. So how do you think

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Speaker 1: with what they encase those mattresses in? How were they

336
00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 1: hermetically sealed to make sure that nothing got in? Not

337
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Speaker 1: necessarily worried about as much getting out as I am

338
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Speaker 1: of whatever is in there being contaminated. I think we

339
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: need to worry about both things, Uh, both aspects to this.

340
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: We do need to worry about things certainly getting in

341
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: as you stayed at Jack, anything from externally that could

342
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: find its way inside of this pouch, Uh, that might

343
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: be outside of what you would expect to find in

344
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:58,360
Speaker 1: the pristine interior protected scene. All Right, when you hit

345
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: that door, have you got to sink secured to the

346
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,920
Speaker 1: point where anything on the outside is not going to

347
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 1: find its way, you know, because the environment that you're

348
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 1: exiting is reasonably protected, you know, within the apartment or

349
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: the house as it is. Uh. But then you go

350
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: into an outdoor environment with this thing, uh, and you

351
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 1: have to make sure that it is secured. Now to

352
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: the other point here, losing things. Um, I if it's

353
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Speaker 1: a if it's a blood stain, for instance, and it

354
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Speaker 1: has saturated into the mattress, there's high possibility that you're

355
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 1: going to be able to you know, protect that to

356
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: a great degree from you know, wind and rain, because

357
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: you've got this this covering on it. Um. I'm really

358
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 1: worried about fragile evidence, certainly like touch, which is if

359
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: you think about touched in a being the consistency of

360
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 1: ten times more fragile than say, for instance, tlcoulm powder

361
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: that dainty uh and grass aisle. It can actually you know,

362
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,400
Speaker 1: kind of blow away. Also to be considered our hair

363
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: and fiber, which you know any of us, know you

364
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: know that have dogs or have uh maybe we've we're

365
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: finding hair on ourselves. Anything that's fragile, it can either

366
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Speaker 1: attach itself to us or it can be blown away,

367
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: and that would be a consideration as well. You don't

368
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Speaker 1: want to lose anything that you may have captured up

369
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: there in the scene. I hope that that they had

370
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: these these pouches secured on those mattresses before they brought

371
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 1: them downstairs. All of this is not as concerning to

372
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 1: me though, as the amount of time it's taken and

373
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Speaker 1: then the conveyance in which they chose to do this with.

374
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: And it goes more to the way the lawyers are

375
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: going to look at this, and particularly the IT'S team,

376
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: because they're going to take that that videography that you

377
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 1: and I both saw, and at trial they'll they'll run that,

378
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: They'll run that on the screen. And remember, they don't

379
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: have to prove anything, they just have to kind of

380
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: implant that doubt in their minds, you know, and anybody

381
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: up in this region it's ever ridden around pickup truck.

382
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: They've been in the bed of a pickup truck. They

383
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: know the wind blows. Anybody that's ever moved period, moved anybody,

384
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: and driving down the interstate, you see mattresses and furniture

385
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: on the side of the road. I mean that was

386
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: all I could think of, truly, well, almost all I

387
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: can think of was Holy cow. I hope they have

388
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: strapped those things down really well, yeah, I did too,

389
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: And you know, just the physical security of the items themselves.

390
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: It's It's an odd thing, isn't it, Because you know,

391
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: most of the time when you're watching videography outside of

392
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: crime scenes and you see the you see the technicians

393
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: walking out of the door. They're generally carrying bags. You know,

394
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: you think about all the time, thousands and thousands of

395
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: hours of footage that we've seen, stuff that I've seen

396
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: in real time being out on scenes. You think about,

397
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 1: you know, paper bags that are sealed. You can see

398
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: the evidence tape these things are sealed with, and of

399
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 1: course there's other types of packaging that you can use.

400
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: And then it kind of goes into the back of

401
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: a van and it disappears, right, it just vanishes. That's

402
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: not what happened with this. It comes out of out

403
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: of the house and it's then planted in the back

404
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: of a pickup truck. And it gives you pause, It

405
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: certainly does, and uh um, just hoping that they haven't

406
00:26:41,320 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: lost anything here. People have asked me, how would you

407
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: describe the forensics in this case. The one word that

408
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: kind of sums it up for me is dense. There's

409
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: so much. There's so much on so many levels that

410
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: it's hard, you know, just to kind of sit here

411
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: and way through it all. But there's certain things that

412
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: we can consider, and not not everything has been revealed yet. Jackie.

413
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: One of the things that I've learned from you is

414
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: how you can prove that a certain gun caused a

415
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: certain wound. How are you going to do that with

416
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 1: a knife, especially a knife You've not found, great question,

417
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: and let's let's let's let's look at what we do have.

418
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: What we do have is a sheath, okay, which I

419
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: think is a monumental piece of evidence, and it's going

420
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 1: to play in court when this thing finally goes to trial.

421
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: But along with that sheath you get at least the

422
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: beginnings of an identification that has provided that the knife

423
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: that was carried in that sheath is the same type

424
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 1: of knife that would have come with the sheath. Okay,

425
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: because you can't have a sheath and carry a different

426
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 1: type of knife in it. That's certainly something that must

427
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: be considered, all right. So to begin with, what will

428
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: happen is that the authorities the investigators will contact, will

429
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: contact the company that manufactures this knife, in particular specifically

430
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,239
Speaker 1: K Bar right, and it if I remember correctly, on

431
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: the exterior of the sheath, it is stamped with U

432
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: S MC. It's got the the Marine Corps emblem on it, okay,

433
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: and that is an identifier for that particular knife. There's

434
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: probably somewhere on their a serial number. So they'll contact

435
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: the manufacturer, will say, hey, look, we're working this case.

436
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: We need to get what are referred to as uh

437
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: as knowns are exemplars of this knife. So they'll ask for,

438
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: you know, maybe two of these knives to come from

439
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: the factory and they'll get the sheath and they'll get

440
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: the knife itself. All right, and this is something that

441
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: they're going to hang on too. Now, what they can

442
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: do is that they can actually take a look at

443
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: the injuries, at the injuries that these kids sustained, and

444
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists will look at the knife and come

445
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: up with a conclusion as to whether or not this

446
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: particular type of knife can generate this injury. Now, if

447
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: you want to take it a step further, if there

448
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: are any marks on any of the skeletal bodies within

449
00:29:55,080 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: these remains, and I'm talking about ribs, sternum, by collar bone,

450
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: any of these areas, there is a potential that the

451
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: samples of these injured areas have been retained. This happens

452
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: with great frequency at autopsy. So you if there's um

453
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: what's referred to as an insulted piece of bone, that

454
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: piece of bone would be removed from the body and

455
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: it would be retained by the crime lab or by

456
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: the m E. And once you get that knife or

457
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: a knife similar to that, you will ask a tool

458
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: mark expert with at the crime lab, maybe at the

459
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: state crime lab, maybe with the FBI to do a comparison.

460
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: Give you give us an idea, what's your opinion here

461
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: looking at this microscopically at this injury on the bone.

462
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: Can you look at this knife and say that this

463
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: knife generated this injury? And they might can you know,

464
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: they'll they'll come up with an opinion about it, you know,

465
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 1: and a lot goes into it. You can talk about

466
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: the shape of the blade along the long axis. All

467
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 1: of these blades are unique to the manufacturer. Those are

468
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: things that they will explore. Now we don't have the

469
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: actual knife to compare at this time, not saying it's

470
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: not going to make an appearance, but in my experience

471
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: with knife injuries, uh, it's it's important to consider that

472
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: depended upon the quality of the blade and the metal

473
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: and the way it's forged is created. Um, this this

474
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: type of blade, my chip. Okay, it might chip, and

475
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,479
Speaker 1: if it chips many times, it will chip within the body,

476
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 1: particularly if it's striking bony areas, you say, well, what

477
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: what can you do with that? Well, before an autopsy

478
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: is conducted, one of the things that is done is

479
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: you do what is called an AP and a lateral

480
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: X ray of the body. AP means if you anybody

481
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: that's listening, you've been to the docks office and they

482
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: make you stand uh to get a chest X ray

483
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: and they make you stand and put your shoulders to

484
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: the to the wall. Um, they're taking a chest X ray.

485
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: That's an a P that's kind of an overall view

486
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: from that perspective. And then they do a lateral you

487
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: know when you're in the X ray room that make

488
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: you turn and profile and they shoot you from that perspective. Well,

489
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: that's a lateral and so what do you do with

490
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 1: those two two X rays? Well, you look at them

491
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: before you do the autopsy and you say, Okay, anatomically,

492
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: if I'm looking at at this at this image, and

493
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: I see a little metal storm right here, it might

494
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: be just to the right of the mid line, maybe

495
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: adjacent to uh, to the left upper lobe of the

496
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 1: left long Okay, then you flip it and you look

497
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: at the lateral perspective and you can get an idea

498
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: of depth, so you're not going in blind. The key

499
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: is can you can you find sind can you find

500
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 1: that metallic body and retrieve it? And if you can't.

501
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 1: If you can't, there's an off chance that you can

502
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: submit that to the crime lab and they could do

503
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: a metallurgical analysis on that. And very very simple terms,

504
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: what that means is that that item has a specific

505
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: chemical signature that is unique to that manufacturer. You know

506
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: how that blade is forged. Uh, if it's is an

507
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: amalgam of various different types of metal, you know, how

508
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: do they folded in and all those sorts of things,

509
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: And that's that's kind of a chemical signature. Uh. Additionally,

510
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: what happens with knife wounds, and again we don't have

511
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: the knife and we don't know at this point, but

512
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: many times with sharp force injuries, um, the tip of

513
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: the knife, the very point of it will actually break

514
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 1: off and it will lodge. It will lodge in the body.

515
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: I've seen this happen any number of times, and most

516
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: of the time it goes back to the structural integrity

517
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: of the knife as it applies to the quality of

518
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: the manufacturer. You know how they make these things, and

519
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: secondly the age of the blade. You know, how old

520
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: is this blade? And then how much stress has the

521
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: blade been put under. Well, let's think about what we're

522
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: talking about here, right, we're talking about four victims, Jackie four.

523
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: All right, This knife, I think, just from a structural standpoint,

524
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: has has been involved in very in a very intense um,

525
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 1: a very intense attack. So the more and more these

526
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: victims are stabbed, it would stand a reason that structural

527
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: integrity of the blade could begin to break down. People

528
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: don't think about. You know, every time you use a blade,

529
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: say in your kitchen, to cut something with that blade,

530
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: even though you may have just sharpened, it is not

531
00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: as sharp as it was before used it. And you

532
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: keep that progression up without sharpening the blade, it blunts

533
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: the blade. And as the blade gets blunted and you're

534
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: still using the same amount of force, you put stress

535
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: on those edges and it can begin to break down.

536
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: It'll chip, it'll chip, and sometimes those tips will break off.

537
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: I just hope that they did full body X rays

538
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: prior to doing the autopsy. Let's see if for once

539
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: I know more than you do, Joe. Not likely, but

540
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: let's see. Come on, do you know where the name

541
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: cabar came from? I do not who Okay, all right,

542
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: let me let me enjoy it this moment. So the

543
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 1: name cabar came from the company that manufactured these knives

544
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: was Union Cutlery. And the name cabar reportedly is derived

545
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: from a story of a man who went toe to

546
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: toe with a bear. His rifle didn't kill it, didn't

547
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: inflict enough damage, and he went hand to hand and

548
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: finished off the bear with his knife from Union Cutlery. Hence,

549
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: the name k a bar came from kill a bear. Wow,

550
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: I had no idea. And plus, you're originally from East Tennessee,

551
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: so you guys would pronounce bar like that, bear like that, right,

552
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 1: So good country folks would have said bar. Well, that's

553
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: that's actually kind of fascinating. I had to know, So

554
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: I went and I went and looked it up. And

555
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: this is coming from I'm getting this from the website

556
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 1: Exquisite Knives dot com. Well, you know, I would believe

557
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,879
Speaker 1: that it's probably do know that our marines and our

558
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,240
Speaker 1: sailors and actually are uh coasties have carried k bars

559
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: for a long time. Of course, the sailors and the

560
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: coasties have a different utility for them. They'll you know,

561
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: do work on decks and that sort of thing, cut

562
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 1: rope and and you know, and do maintenance. Of course,

563
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: marine corps. We know what the Marine Corps likes to

564
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: use their k bars for. And so it's a and

565
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: that's who it's most closely associated with. I think one

566
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: last thing that I want to get your take on

567
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 1: is the footprint that was left outside the surviving roommates door.

568
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: What's that going to give us a lot? And not

569
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: not many people are talking about it. I haven't really

570
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: talked about it a lot, but I think that it's significant.

571
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of unclear based upon the affidavit because

572
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: they used they used an agent a metal blue that

573
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: is again a meadow blue, and it is it's used

574
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: it it's a it binds with protein and it binds

575
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: with protein in blood. And so you'll use it to

576
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: lift latent prints with all right, or two let's say

577
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: not lift say document latent prince and latent prince can

578
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: either be handprints palm prince, but it can actually also

579
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 1: be footprints. And in this case that's how they recognize this.

580
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: They were applying this agent to the floor and they

581
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: came up with this analysis from the scene and they

582
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: established that this this print, this print was Not only

583
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: did they say what the print was, as far as

584
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: the shape they used to term diamond I think Jackie.

585
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: They came back with the manufacturer and this is um.

586
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: It's a van um And for those that don't know,

587
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: it is a skater shoe. For those that are not familiar.

588
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: If you're familiar with the movie Uh Fast Fast Times

589
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: at Ridgemont High, there's a famous scene where Sean Penn

590
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: takes pair of vans and he takes it and he

591
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: slaps himself in a skull with it and says, hey,

592
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 1: you know what that is. That's my skull. And if

593
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: you reflect, that's a pair of vans. That's what those are.

594
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: They just kind of slip on. They look like deck

595
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: shoes really, but they're they're used for for skating. They do.

596
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: And but why is that significant? Well, it's significant. You know,

597
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: we talk a lot about d n A and you

598
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: know the trace evidence, but you know, when you get

599
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 1: these manufacturer connections as well, one of the questions, I

600
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: think that's really important. I know that these guys are

601
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:35,919
Speaker 1: doing their due diligence and asking these questions very simply put,

602
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: did the suspect on pair of vans? That seems very simplistic,

603
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 1: but you gotta start somewhere, right, Well, if he owned

604
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: a pair of vans, did he own this type of

605
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: pair of vans where it has this particular pattern? And also,

606
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: I don't know how m robust this print was that

607
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: they had raised, But here's a very interesting aspect. If

608
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 1: it was significant enough that print that was left behind,

609
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: you might could tell something about the wear pattern. When

610
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: I say wear pattern, I'm talking about maybe how old

611
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: the shoes were. Was it was it kind of a

612
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: faint kind of print? Was it something looks like it

613
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: was generated from something that was worn down. Think about

614
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,720
Speaker 1: a pencil within a racer. You know how the eraser

615
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: on a brand new pencil will look, you know, like

616
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: it'll have all the little curves on, it will be

617
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: perfectly round over and but yeah, after you use it

618
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: for a while, you wear if you wear it down,

619
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 1: it has a completely different appearance to it's the same thing.

620
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: And also another thing that you can analyze here is

621
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: um is perhaps if this how they step do they pronate?

622
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: Do they supernate? You know what do they do they

623
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 1: hell strike? Well, it all depends on do they flex

624
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,359
Speaker 1: their feet in? Do they walk kind of on the

625
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: arch of their foot up? Well, yeah, some people used

626
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: to use term not need you know, you roll your

627
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: feet in and you strike on the enter the interroportionary

628
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: foot or do you you do you uh say, list

629
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 1: more to the outer edges of your foot or kind

630
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,479
Speaker 1: of roll your feet out when you walk? And then

631
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: how are you a heel striker? Are you a toad

632
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: striker when you're walking? Or do you just shuffle? Do

633
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: you like plant your feet you know, straight up and down,

634
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 1: almost like a piston. And you know, these people that

635
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: do this, this shoe analysis, are amazing people and they

636
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: don't get a lot of credit because it's a very

637
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: it's a very fine science. There's a bit of art

638
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: involved in it too. But that footprint is very significant,

639
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 1: at least to my way of thinking. And I'd have

640
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: to ask if they raise the print with something this

641
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: agent that binds with the proteins and blood, are we

642
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: left to believe that this is a bloody shoe plant.

643
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: I'm just Scott Morgan and this is body bags m