WEBVTT - Michael Clayton 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.840 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:04.960 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.920 And when I find my. 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.960 Ball in a frid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.960 Friday Frida Frida Egg bride Egg. 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.120 Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course. 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.519 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.519 Friday Egg podcast. UH with us this morning, bright and 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:50.440 early and UH Florida Here and late at night in 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:52.600 Australia is Michael Clayton. 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:53.479 Uh. 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:57.800 Michael had a long playing career. He was a professional 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.960 on both the Australian and you European Tours. He won 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:06.160 a few times and he has now become one of 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:10.839 the games pre eminent golf course architects with his firm 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:15.959 of o CCM. So, Michael, thanks for coming on. 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:18.880 Thank you any look forward to it? 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.520 Yeah, i'd uh. You know, I think the it would 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.800 be great if you could tell us a little bit 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:29.480 about your background, how you got into golf and you know, 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.600 so the reader or the listeners that don't know a 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:36.640 ton about you can get a little info on you. 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:42.559 Well, I grew up in Melbourne, which is the best 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.959 city to play golf in Australia, as well as Sandbog courses. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:47.280 But I grew up on the other side of the 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.400 city from the Sandbolt Radio. My parents bought a house 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.200 in the back of a place called Easton Golf Club, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.200 which is now then dug out for housing in the 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:00.720 midst of cutting rides through it and building houses. But 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:02.680 I jumped the fence and started to caddy, and then 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.920 I just started to play, and you know, I got 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:08.440 kind of went through the system. Now, I suppose, playing 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:10.760 schoolboy golf and junior golf and having a golf and. 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:14.040 Peter Thompson was from here, so I spent a lot 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:19.240 of time watching him play. And my interest in design, 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.919 I suppose was you know, I grew up watching golf and. 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.120 Playing golf a bit at Roy Melbourne and kes Nathan 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.960 Metropolitan and Victoria, saw all the great causes in the 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.239 sand belt. So it was really how how I got 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:37.000 to where I am now, I suppose. But I started 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:38.639 as a caddy when I played, and I love to 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:43.000 play with it was like, you know, I guess you 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.400 meet kids the same age and used play golf all 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:47.840 every day, so that was what we did. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:52.520 Ye sounds a lot like my childhood. I feel like 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.280 for somebody, you know, everybody kind of has like an 0:02:56.360 --> 0:03:00.720 architectural enlightening when they play, like a real the really 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.240 great golf course, when you see like this is you 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:06.880 know what golf is supposed to be. 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:07.040 Like. 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.280 Do do you feel like that is kind of the 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:09.840 case with you? 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:13.360 Yeah? 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:17.680 I think I I thought, well, I watched Torments at 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:22.720 Royal Melbourne before I played there, so I was aware 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:25.640 that it was a really good golf course. I wasn't 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.600 probably aware of quite how good, but you know, I 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.760 started playing there in the mid seventies. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:32.320 I suppose I. 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.240 Watched Torments there in the earlies. The World Cup was 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:38.480 there in nineteen seventy two, so I you know, I 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:40.080 guess you instinctively. 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.200 Know that it's a good course. You read about it 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.600 being a good course, and golfers would come out. 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.640 Gary Player and Tom Weiscoff played that World Cup and 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.080 they would come out and say what a great golf 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:55.480 course it was, and you kind of, I suppose you're 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:58.560 aware that it's a special place. And then I watched 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.200 Gary Player player at Kingston Heat in nineteen seventy and. 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.160 So you know, you're just a round good golf. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.480 Most cities in Australia have one or two or three 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:17.320 or four good courses, really good courses that Melbourne's got. 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:22.279 Melbourne in the Maynten Peninsula probably has fifteen or twenty 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.440 six so it's really the center of golf in Australia. 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.160 So I was lucky enough to grow up in the 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:27.640 middle of it. 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.800 That's it's interesting, I you know, Australia in Melbourne is 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:37.520 like on a my short list for places to visit to, 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.560 you know, just go on a you know, golf bench. 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.359 How would you you know, having traveled the world and 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.400 you know, played so many of the great courses, how 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.640 would you compare Melbourne to say, like a you know, 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:55.480 New York and Long Island or you know a Scotland 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.960 in Ireland, like in terms of concentration of you know, 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:04.560 one of those you know metro areas. 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:04.640 Well. 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:06.560 The place I my best was London because I played 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.000 in Europe for fifteen years and I lived we had 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.240 a house about ten minutes down the road from Saindale 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:14.800 for eight years, so that's the concentration of courses I 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:19.680 know best. So if you threw the Heathland courses together 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.919 with the sand Belt. I think Royal Melbourne's the best 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:29.280 course of anything, and then Kenkstone on a par with 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.320 the old courses, Saindale probably, but then if you run 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:38.440 out the next ten I think could probably they nearly 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.960 all be the Heathland courses. So in terms of the 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:45.320 concentration of golf, I would you know, I think London's 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:50.359 probably better in Swinley Forest and Saindale and Welton Heath, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:55.159 the Berkshire Woking, but there's so many. 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.640 Tremendous courses over there, you know. I wonder if. 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:00.920 It's a bitter case of already bringing a bit of 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.640 contempt in Australia because I know them so well. 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.760 But you know, there's a concentration of. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.080 Courses I think, I think London is pretty much unmatched. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:12.960 I've played a little bit in New York, I mean the. 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.680 National and Maystone and I said Gina Kok and seeing 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:20.159 those courses up there, but not so much in the city, 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.520 but I mean Pine Valley, Mary and I suppose quite 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:24.520 a way away from New York. 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:28.520 But for me, I always thought London was an amazing 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:28.880 place to. 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:33.479 Play golf and not so far away the place that 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:36.400 people don't give any credit to. But Paris has got 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:41.599 some fantastic golf San Germain, Fontaine Blain, Lafontaine, Fronte. So 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:46.160 so there's some tremendous courses in Paris. And as a country, 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.839 I think England is an extraordinary variety of golf courses, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:53.640 great links courses, Ethane courses, I mean places like Knots 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:59.359 and Ganton or Woodley. There's an amazing variety of golf 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.000 in England, and in such a small space really, I 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.520 mean compared with Australia and the United States. It's a 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.520 tiny country and you can kind of whip through England 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:11.440 the sort of six or eight weeks and played tremendous 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.480 golf from the you know, the southwest corner up to 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:15.080 the northeast. 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.000 It's an amazing country for golf. 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:21.880 Yeah, I just need to convince the fiance that I 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.240 need a six to eight week work trip right out 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:26.800 in England. 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.320 Well, you can come to Melbourne for a couple of weeks, 0:07:29.320 --> 0:07:32.960 into Melbourne and Tasmania, which is really becoming the center 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:38.160 of great public course golf in Australia with two new 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:41.080 courses on King Island and the two courts at Bambougle 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:45.600 and so Tasmania is really taking off as a great 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:49.840 a bit like Bandon and Came at Length and Sam 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:51.840 Valley marke Kis is. 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:53.160 Kind of remote golf in America. 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:57.000 It's Tasmania has become a bit sort of that modeln 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:01.480 Australia where the building core is on places they're not 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:04.000 hard to get to, but you've got to make an 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:04.840 effort to get to them. 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.960 And people are finding great land and building great golf, 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:10.800 which is a good thing for the game down here. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.760 You guys have a project out there. 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:19.520 Correct, Well, we've got to maybe project in Hobart. There's 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:23.520 a tremendous bit of land on a spit spit of land. 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.440 Really it's just sand, dune and pine trees with water 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:33.440 on three sides, ten minutes from Hobout airports. So how 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.440 about's a decent size city. It might be the fifth 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:39.559 or sixth or seventh biggest city in Australia. It's a 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:44.600 couple of Tasmania it I think that's more than like 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.800 it happens. So that's potentially a great project for us. 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.480 Now that'd be cool. That's I mean, there's so much 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.160 good golf in the world that so you know, I 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:00.400 want to transition here into your playing career, you know, 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.880 kind of came up through the Australian ranks as a 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:07.760 great amateur player and you hit the European Tour and 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.960 professional golf kind of in the in the eighties. You know, 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:14.560 you get obviously got to, you know, with the European 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:17.880 Tour and Australian Tour, travel the world and play some 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.400 of the greatest places. But tell us a little bit 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:23.400 about what life on the European Tour was like in 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.720 that time, and you know, kind of a little bit 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:28.720 about your playing career. 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.520 Well, Al he's when I first started, it was top 0:09:33.559 --> 0:09:36.760 sixty were exempt, so you just went over there and 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:38.679 you played Mondays and if you made the cut, you 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.960 kept going. So there was no way to plan what 0:09:43.000 --> 0:09:44.560 you were going to do like you can now. I 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:46.120 mean at the start of the year you pretty much 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.800 know now what you're in and what you're not. But 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.320 over there was it was a matter of making the 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:52.360 cut and playing and. 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:53.840 If you missed it, you went back to Monday. So 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.960 that was a It wasn't much fun. 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.079 At the time, but I think it was a good 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.560 system because I think if you if you kept playing well, 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.880 you could keep going and make the cut. That way, 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.800 So I played a few tomments in eighty two. Then 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:15.040 I just missed the top sixty in my first full year, 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.520 and then I won a tourment earlier the next year, 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:19.320 so I was kind of exempt the rest of my time. 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.280 And then they went to a top one twenty five 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.640 system in nineteen eighty five. 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.760 But back then. 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.440 The tour really started in April and finished up in 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:30.840 We would come home in the middle of September. 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:31.960 I mean, now. 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.960 Obviously it goes all year because they did what was 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.560 the obvious thing, and they got outside of continental Europe 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:41.520 and went to South Africa and the Middle East and 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:44.640 now Australia and Asia, and so it's really become the 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.679 World Tour. Well not the World Tour, but they will tour. 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:54.120 You know, it was a time when I think, you know, 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.439 the greatest privilege really was to play with sev you 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:00.720 know his time, because I mean, for me, he was 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.160 the He was the best player ever to watch play golf. 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:06.000 He wasn't the best player, I don't think. I mean, 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:09.439 you know, Nicholas and Tiger and those guys were clearly 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:13.360 better players, but to watch someone play golf, there was 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.960 no one like that. He was the most charismatic. 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.640 And and it said an overe his word. But he 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.600 was I adored watching him play golf. He could hit 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.480 incredible shots. He was great fun to watch. He was 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:27.600 incredible theaters. 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.559 So I think all of his contemporaries, I mean, you know. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.720 That the lower RCK players like like like we all 0:11:34.760 --> 0:11:37.680 were sort of we're in awe of how he played. 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:39.880 But I think too, you know, if you spoke to 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.319 Valdo or Langa or Sandy Lyl or was he r 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.680 you know, his real contemporaries, they would all tell you. 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:48.960 That he was the he was the main man. 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:54.600 And you know, he was the first European to. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.760 Show that they could compete in America and play in 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:01.000 America and win the Masters and when the Open Championship, 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:05.559 and so you know, playing his time was really incredible. 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.920 I don't think there's anybody sens who's I mean, Roy's 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.400 you know, his own man and great to watch in 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:13.000 his own way. 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:18.280 But I think they'll ever be able. Well, I suppose Palmer. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:20.240 I saw Palma play when he was an old man, 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.959 really in the opening or when when I say old. 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:27.360 I saw him playing in the open it Millfield in 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:31.160 eighty seven and he played down here in Australia. He 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:33.400 played at my club at Metropolitan in ninety seventy eight. 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.320 But you know, for me, Sebbe was the guy to watch. 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:39.240 He was incredible. Really, I thought, do. 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.400 You feel like in a certain way, I really think, 0:12:42.480 --> 0:12:45.760 like I think back to my my childhood and unfortunately 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.480 I'm too young to have like, you know, really seen 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:54.319 Brian Sebby. But you know, Tiger Woods was you know, 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.800 the guy that led to you know, kind of my 0:12:56.920 --> 0:13:00.800 generation in this golf explosion. Do you feel like Sevvy 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.760 kind of had that effect on the on the world 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:08.439 and and in Europe especially where you know he got 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.440 you know, kind of what a a surgeon, you know, 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:17.440 popularity of golf within like you know, younger generations. 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:19.920 Well he said in Europe, I mean he brought that 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:22.199 to it life. It was a pretty. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:27.040 Stayed tour really set it around England. I mean there 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:31.040 were i mean probably half the tourments for in England, 0:13:31.040 --> 0:13:33.080 and I mean Tony Jackham was the big star, but 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.120 he really gone to America and just went to America. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.720 So I was, you know, in the seventies it was 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.960 really I mean Bob Sheer and Jack Newton and the 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.200 Bobby Cole and the I mean, they were the big 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:52.720 stars of the the European Tour until Sevee really came 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.480 on the scene in nineteen seventy five. That was his 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:58.480 first full year and he really carried that tour from 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:00.240 then until. 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:04.680 You know, he lost his game really in the mid nineties. 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:08.840 And of course the difference between then and now is 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.439 that he didn't just up and leave and go and 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:15.040 live in Florida and play golf in America when none 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.000 of the leading Europeans we play in European well that 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:19.360 they play a few torments there, but he said he 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:22.200 played the European Tour, which was because he's big fight 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.240 with Bemen was it Beeman wanted him to play fifteen 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.640 tooments in America when he was committed to playing you know, 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.920 fifteen or eighteen torments in Europe and he played in 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:36.880 Australia and Japan, and I mean it was a ridiculous 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:39.960 expectation that, well, you have to play fifteen tourments in 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:40.680 America as well. 0:14:40.720 --> 0:14:43.320 Is so at fight he had with Beman was really 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:51.200 crazy that you know, what they're asking him to do. 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.800 But he carried that tour for he made that tour 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:59.240 and carried it for fifteen years. So he was certainly, 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.320 you know, a significant player in that sense, and I 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.360 think he gave I mean, I mean, my generation had 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:12.080 grown up. You know, every superstar and golf was American. 0:15:12.440 --> 0:15:15.240 I mean apart from Jack and really who won the 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.120 Open in the US Opening the sixty nine and seventy 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.720 I mean Nicholas and Watson and Miller and Weiss Golf 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.480 and Trevino and suppose Gary. 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.120 Player was you know the foreign superstar. 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.280 Really, but I mean, I mean almost every big star 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:35.920 and golf was American. And finally there was a player 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:37.680 from an unusual part of the world. 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:43.080 Who showed his generation that they too could be you know, 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.560 the preserve of the top of the game wasn't solely 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:48.480 with Americans. 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:52.280 Yeah, it's it's interesting. I think, like all the great 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.920 American players are you know nowadays or you know, you 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.400 see a different type of player and thinking about it 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:03.000 now is like, you know, Seve probably led to a 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:07.840 somewhat of a Spain like revival of golf. You know, 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:11.200 you see, there are a lot of world class Spanish 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:16.360 players now on the European tour, with Garcia, Ralpha Caberrabello, 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.440 Pablo Laza Bell and then you know you got John 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.600 Rahm coming up through the ranks, and you know, I 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:26.800 have to imagine a lot of that had to do 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:30.640 with you know, Seve's impact on the game and his popularity. 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.000 Well it did, but I mean Sevi was I mean 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.800 already when he came out, there was I mean kind 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.640 of Czaris and Panero and Garrido who were all kind 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:47.440 of Madrid Bays caddies. I mean, they're already good Spanish players, 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.920 and I mean, I mean Sevi's brother was a good player. 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.800 I'm almost a decent player in the European Tour. So 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:57.720 you know, Seve climb Out and I all knew he. 0:16:57.600 --> 0:16:58.320 Was the big style. 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.080 But I mean, spine a Way has had good players. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:03.280 You know, it's that Latin kind of flair for playing 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.760 the game, which was shared with Devissenzo, and you know 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:12.199 so later Edbuarda Romero and Vincentno Fernandez and Angl Cabrero, 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.800 who you know, they play the game much definitely than 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:20.000 everyone else, they don't. They play with great flair and 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:25.160 touch and whilst you know they certainly didn't have bad methods, 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:30.040 they certainly weren't as analytical as Australians or South Africans 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:32.560 or Americans tend to be about golf and trying to 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:36.520 perfect the goals, and they played in a way that 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:38.000 reflected their character. 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.120 Well, you know, the character of their country is really, 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:41.360 I mean. 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.440 Much more easy going and let's try to analyze things 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.520 to death and just go and play with passion and 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.280 flair and get the ball in the hole. And I mean, 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.480 Sevy was the best at it. But I mean I 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.720 saw Divisenzo play when he was I mean, I say 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:57.119 he was an old man. He was younger than I 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.440 am now, but it was fifty seven when I saw 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.320 him play it forfeit in nineteen eighty, and well he 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.560 was still a great player. You know, was a pro 0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:10.240 in his late fifties, which was a tremendous player. And 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:12.920 Edbroo Romero was a beautiful player, and Caberra with him, 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.159 and tremendous players to watch. So you're gonna love the 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:18.600 South American players and the Spanish players all together. 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:20.119 Really in terms of how they played. 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:26.439 The game, it's uh, it's interesting. So who you know? 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.640 I always asked this question with architecture, but in terms 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.240 of kind of European tour, like who's the best player 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.080 that most Americans never heard of that was on the 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.320 European Tour and like the eighties. 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:43.560 Uh well he was, he was older then, but Neil 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.359 Coles was I think. I mean Neil Coles was a 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:46.320 tremendous player. 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.080 He hated to fly. He was on that bad Ryder 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:51.159 Cup flight that flew into Palm Springs. It was a 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.240 it was a it was apparently it was a wicked 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:55.800 flag turbulin stuff, you know. 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.399 I mean he he didn't fly much after that. But 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.960 Neil Carles is a fantastic players second in the open 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:04.680 to Wiscuff Tom with Miller in seventy three. 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:06.600 And I mean he won a lot of tourments in 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.520 Europe and was a great player really so so probably 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.200 Neil Coles. I mean, he was a beautiful golfer, I thought. 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:16.960 As I mean, if you're a player on the European 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.160 Tour and you don't like to fly, you're in you're 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:20.600 kind of in a tough bind. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.639 Well you can why you can drive around Europe. I 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.359 mean there's a guy whose name escapes me. 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:30.359 I shouldn't I think, German guy who won't fly drives everywhere. 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:33.520 So obviously you're not going to have much Black team 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.560 to the tournaments this week and do baile wherever they're 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:39.760 playing abad w. I'm not sure where they're playing this week, 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.840 but you know, that's a long way to drive to Australia, 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:46.480 but you can easily drive the. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.960 Continent now, uh huh. But but you're right. 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:53.920 You know, if you're not prepared to get into an aeroplane, 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:57.080 it makes it a tough profession to really take full 0:19:57.080 --> 0:19:57.800 advantage of it. 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:02.199 Yeah. I remember there was a basket ball player a 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:06.720 few years back, Royce White or something. He had like 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:11.560 an extreme phobia of flying, and you know, it costs 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.640 him getting drafted very highly to you know, moving back 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.200 and I don't I think he's out of the league now. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.600 You know, it's like you gotta gotta be able to 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.560 fly if you want to be a professional athlete these 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:29.239 days with all the travel. So tell me, you know, 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:32.800 with the game, and you know, you've seen the really 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:35.879 the change with technology from you know person and to 0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:41.040 metal woods to now today where you know, just you know, 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:46.080 the the clubs are capped, but the ball just keeps 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.280 getting better, and you know, the more and more courses 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:52.760 are becoming vulnerable and scorable, Like how do you feel 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:57.160 about kind of what's happening with the landscape of the game, 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:02.480 with technology and golf courses, Well, I. 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:03.520 Think it's a disaster. 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.000 I just think that, you know, every Australia doesn't have 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.560 a long golf course anymore. I mean, every single golf 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:13.679 course is in Australia is obsolete. 0:21:14.480 --> 0:21:17.640 If the measure is how Alistair. 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:20.520 Mackenzie and Alec Russel and the great designers down here 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.280 one of the golf courses to play. I mean I 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:26.959 watched the final of the Australian Amateur on Sunday. Men 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:30.560 Wood Lee, who's Menji Lee's brother, was in the final 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.840 seventeen years old. So the argument that these guys are 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.200 better athletes, I mean, here's a seventeen year old boy 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:40.840 who played the last hole at Yariaa, which was always 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:42.840 a short Part five in my day. Was that Pop 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.720 Sheer was hitting five irons and Greg Norman was could 0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:47.040 perhaps get there with a six iron. 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:48.439 It was a driving a four iron for me. 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:52.400 His kid drove it in the cross bunkers and then 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:54.639 in a nine nine out of the cross bunkers twenty 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:55.600 yards over the green. 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:58.399 I mean, it's a part five. The sixteenth old was it. 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.320 Well, they played them as pat forwards during the week, 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.600 but they played off the back to you at sixteen. 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:08.240 Driving a wedge. So every golf course is obsolete. 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:10.840 And I can't tell me he's not a better athlete 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:13.800 as a seventeen year old boy than Greg Norman or 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.440 Sam Sneed or Jack Nicholas were as thirty year old men. 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.400 So the argument that these guys are better athletes is, well, 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:23.520 you know, partly it's I mean, sure they're fitter and stronger, 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:28.760 but you know, there are two things that matter in 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.440 terms of the R and a's job and the USA job. 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:33.919 I mean, I mean they had two jobs. 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:39.080 One was to protect or maintain the skillet took to 0:22:39.080 --> 0:22:42.080 play the game at the top level, and one was 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.439 to protect the golf courses. And they've only failed at 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.399 both of them. So that every kid who plays golf 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:50.280 now who's half decent can hit the same. 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:53.679 Drives but thirty hours longer then Nichols and Norman and 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.040 was he and sev hit And don't tell me they're 0:22:57.040 --> 0:22:57.680 more skillful. 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:03.760 No, I mean, every decent golf course is obsolete. So 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:06.360 you go to a place like Millfield or shinner Cock. 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:08.440 Can you look back at where those championship tees are. 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:11.400 It's I mean, it's laughable whether some of those teas 0:23:11.400 --> 0:23:14.600 are on Millfield, and I I mean the worst you know, 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:16.359 for me, the best golf course in the world is 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:17.000 the old course. 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:18.760 It's Andrew's and. 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:23.320 The worst aspect of playing that golf course now is 0:23:23.720 --> 0:23:27.240 almost on every single hole you make the exact same 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.440 walk back into the right and walk back sixty yards 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:33.520 to these teas that are out of bounds or on 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:35.200 the Eden. 0:23:35.080 --> 0:23:37.560 Course or the New Course, or the out of bounds 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:39.760 in the case of the tea on the oat hole seventeenth. 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:43.840 So you know, it's just. 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:49.520 Beyond dismaying that they've let the ball get so out 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:54.160 of control, and seemingly to me they've let the titleist 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.240 company whose balls I've always played with and they've always 0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:59.639 made great golfers. But you know, it seems like the 0:23:59.680 --> 0:24:03.280 Buss Titler's runs golf because as far as I can tell, 0:24:04.560 --> 0:24:07.760 they threaten lawsuits, and the RNA and US terrified of lawsuits. 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:13.280 So here we have a manufacturer controlling, you know, the 0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:15.600 way the great golf courses of the water played. 0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.720 So you know, it was the job of the administration 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:24.560 to protect those golf courses against the. 0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.719 Ravages of the equipment. I mean, you can't protect them 0:24:26.760 --> 0:24:30.919 against small increases. And of course they will argue on 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:33.120 the record, not off the record, because I'll admit they've 0:24:33.119 --> 0:24:36.440 screwed it up, but on the record they say, well, 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.280 they're only small increases. It's not really noticeable. Or it's 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:43.320 like saying a three year old kid who's three feet high, 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:45.920 it's not really noticeable that he grows into a year, 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:47.399 but he turns into a six foot six. 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:51.480 Man, so little little. 0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:57.720 Sure, it's you know, the largue that while the distancing 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:00.639 increases aren't noticeable, but in the end, you watched a 0:25:00.680 --> 0:25:03.000 seventeen year old boy played the last whole Yeah, yeah, 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:05.520 with a driving a wedge is like, don't tell me 0:25:05.560 --> 0:25:08.600 the ball's not going for it. I mean, you know 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:10.399 when Greg Norman was sitting five and six times and 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:12.960 they're okay. I mean that was considered because because back 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.320 in Peter Thompson's day, it was a drive and a 0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:19.080 three wood or a four wood. And back when I 0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:22.639 Russell built that golf course, it was a they were 0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:24.240 playing with hickory shafts and it was two woods in 0:25:24.280 --> 0:25:28.040 a pitch. So they're just a fenced with the second 0:25:28.080 --> 0:25:29.840 wood shot in terms of we're driving a pitch hole, 0:25:30.080 --> 0:25:33.240 which is you know, I played with Ryan Ruffles Royal 0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:36.240 Melbourne and Ryan's the best kind of young player in 0:25:36.280 --> 0:25:41.520 Australia and we played the West Court. We played the 0:25:41.520 --> 0:25:44.960 West Course at Royal Melbourne. Pretty much every hole was 0:25:44.960 --> 0:25:46.840 a driving a wedge for him. It's one of the 0:25:46.880 --> 0:25:50.480 great golf courses in the world. And to watch, you know, 0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:53.479 eighteen year old and perhaps he's a little more than 0:25:53.480 --> 0:25:56.080 a boy, but not really in a word, end of 0:25:56.080 --> 0:25:58.400 pretty much every hole the sevennth doubles into the wind. 0:25:58.400 --> 0:26:01.640 He had three iron five irons, so probably a little 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:03.520 longer as a four hundred and forty out four. 0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:08.159 But you know, if Mackenzie came back now, he would 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:12.520 just go ballistic. The people whose responsive it was to 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:13.560 protect his golf courses. 0:26:14.440 --> 0:26:19.920 Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's you know, these 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:23.359 kids now that are coming up, their swings are built 0:26:23.560 --> 0:26:26.879 where they you know, they've never seen. You know, I 0:26:26.920 --> 0:26:29.679 grew up and as a freshman in high school I 0:26:29.680 --> 0:26:31.840 was hitting the ball like two hundred yards. You know, 0:26:31.960 --> 0:26:34.880 these kids hit it three hundred yards as freshmen, and 0:26:35.040 --> 0:26:38.560 their swings are built around like you know, the forgiveness 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:42.560 of the clubs, and they they never have a bad mess. 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:48.880 Well, the faces, you know, the face is so big, 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:51.679 the shaft is so long and so light, and the 0:26:51.720 --> 0:26:54.399 ball goes straight because it once spins. So you know, 0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:57.920 it's all about how fast and how fast and hide 0:26:57.920 --> 0:26:58.480 you get the ball. 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:00.280 It's all about power. 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:04.200 So not only does it destroy the golf courses, it 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:08.800 drives out the inventive shorter player. 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:13.600 So if you were in charge of golf, how would 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.240 you deal with kind of the problem. Would you do 0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:20.080 a rollback or would you, you know, create a different 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:23.800 type of equipment for you know, the touring pros or 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:26.560 high level amateurs. How would you approach it? 0:27:29.240 --> 0:27:31.399 Well, I think you have to bifurcate the ball. Of 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:34.760 course they don't want to, but I mean we had 0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:37.119 that forever. I mean we were I mean I grew 0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:40.320 up playing the no ball. When the Americans played with 0:27:40.359 --> 0:27:42.280 the big ball, we played with the small ball. So 0:27:42.280 --> 0:27:44.840 so the game was bifurcated for the longest time, for 0:27:44.840 --> 0:27:49.920 forty or fifty years, and then we were as top 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:52.639 level amters, chose to play the big ball because if 0:27:52.680 --> 0:27:54.280 we ever wanted to be pros, we knew we were 0:27:54.280 --> 0:27:56.760 gonna have to play with it. So for six or 0:27:56.800 --> 0:28:00.400 seven years the pro tour in Australia in the top 0:28:00.520 --> 0:28:04.280 level playing the big ball, whilst the club players continued 0:28:04.320 --> 0:28:06.360 on with a small ball until the early eighties when they, 0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:08.560 you know, the small ball was banned. 0:28:09.800 --> 0:28:11.760 So it will say. 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:14.679 That, well you can't you know, change the ball and 0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:16.760 take this distance off the average amount player. 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:20.920 But when they've already done that much and no one 0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:24.360 really cared, and I mean no one, because. 0:28:24.119 --> 0:28:27.800 I actually don't think that would look that much, you know, 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:29.840 with the stroke of a pen. And you know, in 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:32.320 nineteen eighty three or eighty four when they bound a 0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:35.800 small ball in Britain and Australia, in theory everyone that 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:39.240 game lost twenty five yards because I went from playing 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:41.360 at one point stateball. 0:28:42.200 --> 0:28:44.440 So do you think outside of rolling back the ball, 0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:46.120 is there anything else you could do. 0:28:49.000 --> 0:28:49.400 Well? 0:28:50.320 --> 0:28:52.080 I mean, the argument is always going to be that 0:28:52.280 --> 0:28:54.320 the ambutters want to play with what the pros use. 0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:58.040 But I mean I would try and restore the skillet 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:00.720 took to be a great driver, so you make a 0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:03.959 more ball that's more difficult to drive far and straight, 0:29:05.200 --> 0:29:07.280 and you limit the size of the club and on 0:29:07.280 --> 0:29:08.800 the driver, which of course they should have. 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:13.760 Done years ago but never did. So when the manufacturers 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:16.160 figured out how to make a head like a frying 0:29:16.200 --> 0:29:19.080 pan and make it light and make itself didn't crack, 0:29:19.200 --> 0:29:22.560 then yeah, there was almost no limit on the side 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:23.040 of the driver. 0:29:23.800 --> 0:29:28.920 So I would I would try and limit the size 0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:32.080 that I would understand. So really the balls the thing 0:29:32.160 --> 0:29:34.400 to change. But I mean Savvy was. 0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:40.280 An advocate of I mean, you could have on a wedge. 0:29:40.840 --> 0:29:42.680 I mean, it's never gonna happen. 0:29:42.720 --> 0:29:45.040 But I would say that every bo use the Maszuo 0:29:45.720 --> 0:29:49.600 or some sort of blade two iron or one iron, 0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:51.600 I mean at least have one in their bags. Are 0:29:51.760 --> 0:29:53.720 essentially the guys who don't want to use it. You're 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:55.840 making a thirteen type game, that a falling type game. 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:59.200 But I think if you have one to be a 0:29:59.240 --> 0:30:02.640 professional player something you can get a problem too. I mean, 0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:05.080 this hybrid stuff is just junk for golf, if you know, 0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:09.200 for top level pros. But that's kind of pine the 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:12.840 sky stuff, really. But the balls are easiest and the 0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:15.800 main thing to fix. And if I was a good player, 0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:18.600 I'd be wanting to make the equipment as difficult to 0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:23.120 use as possible. And you know the real problem, well, 0:30:23.240 --> 0:30:25.000 one of the problems with the game now has been 0:30:25.760 --> 0:30:30.040 kind of the complete decimation of Korea type amate golf. 0:30:30.080 --> 0:30:31.680 There are no career. 0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:34.200 Amateur players left anymore. I mean, I mean every a 0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:38.040 certainly in Australia and Britain. It's just a bunch of 0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:42.720 kids who want to be pros. So because the equipment 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:45.600 has given them all the same set of skills, they 0:30:45.680 --> 0:30:48.080 all look like they're really good players because the equipment 0:30:48.120 --> 0:30:48.880 makes them look. 0:30:48.720 --> 0:30:52.480 Like really good players. And some of them are, and 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:54.800 some of them are just kind of faking it because 0:30:54.800 --> 0:31:00.040 the equipment makes them look good. So you know, what 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:03.560 the equipment has done is throwing thousands and thousands of 0:31:03.640 --> 0:31:09.520 kids into the pile of you know, the same skill set. 0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:13.560 Really Whereas you know, when I was growing up, the 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:15.880 guys who could really drive the ball, well, you know 0:31:16.160 --> 0:31:18.960 the guys who could drive the Ballada ball with a 0:31:18.960 --> 0:31:22.160 per Simon driver, well, I mean Nicholas and Wisdom and 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.160 severy des By what people think was a great driver, Norman. 0:31:26.200 --> 0:31:28.520 I mean they had a huge white goff a huge 0:31:28.560 --> 0:31:33.320 advantage because there was such powerful, long straight drivers and 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:36.040 you know, you either drove the ball like the guys 0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:38.840 I grew up among them, Peter Thompson growing master Halo. 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:42.440 When you were you know, a short, relatively short, straight 0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:45.280 hitter who digged the ball up and put him to play, 0:31:46.480 --> 0:31:48.320 or you were long and crooked, or you were long 0:31:48.360 --> 0:31:52.360 and great. But now everyone's long and straight, and you know, 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:55.040 so the skillet takes to drive the ball has been 0:31:55.120 --> 0:31:59.880 up utterly decimated by the equipment. And I would argue 0:32:00.640 --> 0:32:03.680 that hasn't done the average probate good because the ball 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:09.880 for them, you see so many more wildly crooked shots. 0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:13.480 You know, the club you can swing so much hotter 0:32:14.240 --> 0:32:17.040 in the middle of the faces, some yasy to hit, 0:32:17.120 --> 0:32:18.920 but if it's pointing in the wrong direction, the ball 0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:20.400 goes miles off line. 0:32:20.400 --> 0:32:25.040 Now, well, something I've found just it just bothers me 0:32:25.480 --> 0:32:30.479 is the length of the driver. You know, where you 0:32:30.520 --> 0:32:33.880 look at the average length of a tour driver, it's 0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:37.080 gone up one inch over the last you know, fifteen years. 0:32:37.640 --> 0:32:41.960 And somehow club manufacturers, because you know, they've got a 0:32:42.040 --> 0:32:44.920 limit on their you know, how they can construct a 0:32:44.960 --> 0:32:48.520 golf club, they've decided to go after the average amateur 0:32:48.560 --> 0:32:52.000 player and do it by giving them more yardage by 0:32:52.080 --> 0:32:55.200 making a longer driver. But all that does is it 0:32:55.240 --> 0:32:58.720 makes it go longer and way and way worse directions. 0:32:58.800 --> 0:33:02.320 You know, if a younger driver meant longer and straighter drives, 0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:05.360 every PGA tour player would be using it, but none 0:33:05.400 --> 0:33:05.800 of them do. 0:33:08.520 --> 0:33:10.200 Was a Jimmy Walker that went back to a forty 0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:11.840 two inch driver in Hawaii or something. 0:33:12.160 --> 0:33:14.320 Yeah, yeah, I mean at the end of the day, 0:33:14.560 --> 0:33:16.800 like length is great, but you gotta be in a 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:18.600 fair way to score. 0:33:18.880 --> 0:33:23.840 Yeah, so you know what, you know, it sounds like 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:25.960 we're a bunch of grumpy old men talking about the 0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:26.520 good old days. 0:33:26.560 --> 0:33:27.400 But but. 0:33:29.280 --> 0:33:34.440 I wish I was old that young. Yeah, I'm just grumbled. 0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:37.160 And the average amateur player, I mean they were, you know, 0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:40.200 the guys like kdy For. They didn't very many good shots, 0:33:40.240 --> 0:33:42.840 but were the first bos like kd For were twenty 0:33:42.840 --> 0:33:45.760 five handicappers. But they ort the ball pretty straight, and 0:33:45.840 --> 0:33:47.600 I mean no one hit the ball. They would mishit 0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:49.280 it a lot, but they never hit it really crooked. 0:33:49.800 --> 0:33:52.360 I mean, now you see, the average amazate can hit 0:33:52.400 --> 0:33:55.280 the ball so far off line. Now, it's amazing because 0:33:55.280 --> 0:33:57.200 the shafts are so long, and you know, the swing 0:33:57.240 --> 0:33:59.400 harder and it looks it looks like you can swing 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:02.080 away with him unity And of course that six or 0:34:02.120 --> 0:34:03.760 you know four, three or four or five really good 0:34:03.800 --> 0:34:06.600 drives around. But whether are three of them just you 0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:11.800 don't find so anyway, that's uh, that's the equipment. 0:34:12.239 --> 0:34:16.120 So yeah, So Caddy, you caddied this year in the Olympics. 0:34:16.120 --> 0:34:20.680 Tell us a little bit about that experience and how 0:34:20.920 --> 0:34:22.920 you know what it was like, you know, being a 0:34:22.960 --> 0:34:24.520 part of representing a country. 0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:28.560 Well, I'm not sure I was representing my country. 0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:31.880 I mean, you're you're part of the team. 0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:35.160 I guess we were kind of Well, there's a kid 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:38.920 at a club of girl who was Maria. Came to 0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:41.200 Australia when she was eight years old, didn't play golf 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:43.920 and she played in the Australian Open when she was twelve. 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:47.200 I can remember watching her plays. I watched her play 0:34:47.280 --> 0:34:50.040 for holes. It's this twelve year old. You know, she 0:34:50.160 --> 0:34:52.400 wasn't a little girl. She was actually you know, she 0:34:52.520 --> 0:34:54.120 was sort of five foot five or something. But she 0:34:54.520 --> 0:34:56.080 there was this twelve year old kid playing in the 0:34:56.080 --> 0:34:58.920 Australian Open. She qualified and she missed a cut, but 0:34:59.000 --> 0:35:03.520 not by many. Then she joined the Cowboy Player Aunt 0:35:03.560 --> 0:35:08.040 about three or four years later I think, and we 0:35:08.120 --> 0:35:11.480 got to play a little bit. And she called me 0:35:11.520 --> 0:35:13.680 one night and she'd been assigned to caddy for the 0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:17.400 train Open at Victoria about twenty fourteen. 0:35:18.040 --> 0:35:19.480 She said, what should I do? I said, what I 0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:20.120 cady for you? 0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:22.400 So I started to caddy for a little bit, and 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:24.719 you know, we did sort of three or four or 0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:29.319 five touraments a year, and then last year she had 0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:30.320 pretty lowly. 0:35:31.040 --> 0:35:34.040 She missed the top twenty five on there the. 0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:37.360 LPGA Tour School in twenty and fifteen twenty fifteen, but 0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:40.800 she she had a number that gave her sons status, 0:35:40.800 --> 0:35:42.080 which was basically much. 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:44.839 But she was starting this train open and we did 0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:51.200 that and she finished fourteenth and she off her number 0:35:51.200 --> 0:35:53.359 and she finished fortieth there. Okadie four her there. 0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:58.520 So she reranked really well and the finished second at 0:35:58.840 --> 0:36:02.919 King's Mill and eighth in the pj CO Web out 0:36:02.920 --> 0:36:06.560 of the Australian Olympic team. So she asked me to 0:36:06.560 --> 0:36:09.719 go K four beround there, which was it was a 0:36:09.719 --> 0:36:11.480 lot of fun. It was a really cool event. It 0:36:11.600 --> 0:36:14.200 was great to be a part of. It was fun 0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:15.799 to see her play in it. 0:36:15.800 --> 0:36:20.680 It was great to Gil Hans walked around the course 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:23.960 with us on the first practice run we did, and 0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:27.279 so that was interesting. It was anything but heard us. 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:32.479 See you know how he thought about how we designed holes, 0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:36.359 because obviously I was, I mean, I think, I mean, 0:36:36.400 --> 0:36:40.279 I'm not sure how many nineteen year old young women 0:36:40.320 --> 0:36:42.560 are that aware of the strategy of golf. 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:44.440 It's pretty much hit the ball where you're told to 0:36:44.520 --> 0:36:46.879 hit it and go from point A to point B. 0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:48.200 But so kind of. 0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:50.600 Growing up in Melbourne and played knew there was more 0:36:50.640 --> 0:36:54.440 to golf and just see the ball straight. So you know, 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:56.560 we had a really cool time Monday with Gill and 0:36:57.160 --> 0:36:59.320 walking around talking about the golf course and the angles 0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:03.480 and you know there's a great old George Thomas crote 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:09.200 about So George Thomas Thomson wrote about the middle of 0:37:09.280 --> 0:37:10.360 the being. 0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:13.880 The ideal line to the whole. And you know, Sami 0:37:15.520 --> 0:37:18.239 many PGA two of course is the object is just 0:37:18.320 --> 0:37:20.480 hit the fairway. It doesn't matter where you hit it. 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:23.120 But you know, the Pharaohs are. 0:37:23.000 --> 0:37:24.719 On line with high rough and it's not the sort 0:37:24.719 --> 0:37:27.760 of golf I enjoy much. But you know, wrong Melbourne 0:37:27.800 --> 0:37:30.840 and the Pharaoh's of sixty or seventy years wide. 0:37:30.840 --> 0:37:36.160 But yeah, to play the golf was really ruddy for me. 0:37:37.680 --> 0:37:39.960 So you know, she had a good understanding of playing 0:37:39.960 --> 0:37:43.360 for the edges and opened up the angles, and so 0:37:43.400 --> 0:37:45.520 it was interesting fun four days to play the golf 0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:50.440 where she played pretty well. She it was my she 0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:55.360 hit the rarely if ever is she hit the wrong 0:37:55.480 --> 0:37:57.399 shot and the wrong club when we got to. 0:37:57.360 --> 0:38:03.600 The thirteenth hole on Sunday, was not an unreasonable chance 0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:03.759 to go. 0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:07.160 She had to pass thirteen, four and fifteen and Bertie 0:38:07.200 --> 0:38:10.799 the last three. But Burnie the last three was very 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:13.880 possible given the nature of those holes, and thirty it 0:38:13.880 --> 0:38:15.719 was the toughest hole, and she had a kind of 0:38:15.719 --> 0:38:17.640 a dodgy number. It was sort of between a five 0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:24.920 on and a lofted hybrid. Shoot the wrong club for 0:38:25.040 --> 0:38:26.480 letting you hit it because I kind of knew it 0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:28.279 was and I should have stopped at it, you know. 0:38:28.280 --> 0:38:29.560 I shoot over the back of the green and got 0:38:29.600 --> 0:38:31.319 horrible in the bunker and made six and that was that. 0:38:31.440 --> 0:38:34.799 But but she played well, finished thirteenth and it was 0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:37.560 a really interesting week for her. It was a good 0:38:38.120 --> 0:38:43.840 confidence boost and it was she finished up the fiftieth 0:38:43.840 --> 0:38:48.400 on the maybe started the pretty much place at all, 0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:51.759 So it was the for me, it was a. 0:38:51.800 --> 0:39:01.719 Fun Yeah, it's interesting you you talked about the architecture 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:05.399 and you know how wits and being more about being 0:39:05.440 --> 0:39:08.400 on the correct side of the fairway as opposed to 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:11.319 the you know, just down the middle is kind of 0:39:11.360 --> 0:39:12.320 your your belief. 0:39:12.360 --> 0:39:15.960 I think that that is so you know, lost, and 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:19.400 I think the angles is what, you know, made so 0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:24.719 many of these you know, Golden Age courses great, and 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:26.880 it's something that got kind of lost there in the 0:39:26.920 --> 0:39:29.640 middle of Dese. I feel like you, along with a 0:39:29.640 --> 0:39:32.160 lot of the New Age architects, are trying to bring 0:39:32.200 --> 0:39:32.680 that back. 0:39:35.400 --> 0:39:39.080 Well yeah, you know you can't have. 0:39:40.520 --> 0:39:42.840 Well you can, but it's very difficult to correct strategy 0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:45.759 if you don't have any wits. So, you know, you 0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:48.600 look at the old courses Statis, which is basically two 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:51.680 fairways wade with bunkers in the middle, and you know 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:56.600 the National Golf Links and sand Hills and Nebraska, you know, 0:39:56.640 --> 0:39:58.239 the great the first. 0:39:58.000 --> 0:40:01.359 Great modern course really and you look at what Mike 0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:04.160 cars has done at Bandon and out of Sand Valley. 0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:07.480 And what Gill died it Castle Stewart in Scotland, and 0:40:08.200 --> 0:40:11.799 you know some of the courses we've done here. You know, 0:40:12.080 --> 0:40:26.560 I love playing golf when you've got to work and 0:40:26.560 --> 0:40:27.920 then you must sit the ball there and if you 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:30.160 don't you get this, you get six inch ruff on 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:32.120 the side of the fairway and six inch roff around 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:32.440 the greens. 0:40:32.440 --> 0:40:33.080 That's what you get. 0:40:33.920 --> 0:40:36.680 So as Seve said, you know, it's very and he's 0:40:37.760 --> 0:40:41.560 finished way, very mechanic type golf, and it is, you know, 0:40:41.560 --> 0:40:42.400 it's why Sev. 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:45.120 He was He was the only man who. 0:40:44.920 --> 0:40:50.880 Ever won it St Andrews Augusta and Roal Melbourne, and 0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:56.520 no surprise given that you know it was Mackenzie's over 0:40:56.719 --> 0:41:02.600 course and arguably his certainly probably two of his best 0:41:02.640 --> 0:41:05.040 three courses long with Cyperuspoint and perhaps Crystal Downs. But 0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:10.839 here was a you read the spirit of Andrews and. 0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:13.120 He loved it. 0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:15.160 Walla Hagen played golf and here, fifty or sixty years 0:41:15.200 --> 0:41:19.680 later it was, you know, Walla Hagen reincarnated in SEVEI Ballisterio. 0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:24.920 So they played golf with flair and carefree abandon but 0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:27.839 you had to give them space to play, and if 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:31.080 you didn't, you kind of blunted their skills. And sure 0:41:31.160 --> 0:41:34.160 you could criticize Savvy for not being you're not having 0:41:34.200 --> 0:41:36.640 the game to win the US Open. But and that's 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:40.880 fine because that was the preserve of something like Hale Owen, 0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:44.880 who played the perfect US Open game. And that's the 0:41:44.880 --> 0:41:46.640 great thing about golf is you can have a golf 0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:49.560 course and a championship that's set up to suit a 0:41:49.640 --> 0:41:52.440 Halo or a Ben Hogan or a jack Net because 0:41:52.640 --> 0:41:54.480 but you can also have championship set up to suit 0:41:54.520 --> 0:41:57.400 someone like ballisteros or Hagen who. 0:41:57.800 --> 0:42:05.200 Needed more space. Once you gave him that it was. Yeah. 0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:07.680 So the great thing about golf is that, you know, 0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:15.480 different golf courses show off different skill sets and again, hey, equipment, 0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:21.680 that's what it's been, I'm sure, which pretty full one 0:42:21.719 --> 0:42:22.400 guy Simeline. 0:42:23.120 --> 0:42:31.680 Yeah, it's the ball and you can't you know, usually 0:42:31.680 --> 0:42:36.360 aful player. Yeah, so the game is actually changed in 0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:37.200 the last twenty years. 0:42:37.239 --> 0:42:42.440 Really, Yeah, I I completely agree. It's you know, the 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:46.560 kind of art of working the ball and different ways 0:42:46.600 --> 0:42:51.920 of getting it done or diminishing every every year. So 0:42:52.880 --> 0:42:55.640 with with your design firm that you guys started, So 0:42:55.719 --> 0:43:00.960 it's O C C M for short, it's you, Jeff Ogov, 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:05.319 Mike Cocking and Ashley Mead tell us a little bit 0:43:05.360 --> 0:43:08.200 about how you guys got together and started. Was it 0:43:08.400 --> 0:43:12.279 kind of just like minds and you know how it 0:43:12.360 --> 0:43:18.400 got started? And you know a little bit about this company, Well, I. 0:43:18.440 --> 0:43:21.680 Was like mine's well I started off, I started off 0:43:21.719 --> 0:43:22.160 a business. 0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:25.680 Well I didn't start off to two of my partners 0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:29.000 in the original business, which was Michael Plainton Golf Designed 0:43:29.200 --> 0:43:32.719 with two superintendents in Melbourne, came to me and asked 0:43:32.760 --> 0:43:34.600 me if I was interested in starting off a business 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:37.600 and design in nineteen ninety five, and we did that 0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:43.000 and we employed Michael and Ashley in two thousand, I 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:44.640 think the two thousand and one pretty much around the 0:43:44.680 --> 0:43:49.800 same time. So that business survived until it didn't survive 0:43:49.800 --> 0:43:52.640 anymore in twenty ten, when. 0:43:52.960 --> 0:43:54.560 You know, it was a sign of the times. It 0:43:54.680 --> 0:43:58.440 was the market really telling us that you did run 0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:06.520 your bit your business more. Yeah, we sort of fifteen 0:44:06.560 --> 0:44:08.799 years really and we won year where well, we can't 0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:11.640 pay the wages anymore, so we did what Well, the 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:13.879 business went the way of the business. So I called 0:44:13.920 --> 0:44:15.680 Jeff and said, you know, this is a situation. 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:20.040 We need some money, and he didn't even think about 0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:21.800 it for well he thought about it for a second, 0:44:21.840 --> 0:44:23.160 I think, and said, I mean that's great. 0:44:23.960 --> 0:44:27.520 You know. So Jeff came on board. He plant us 0:44:27.560 --> 0:44:27.960 some money, he. 0:44:27.960 --> 0:44:32.000 Said, go start an office and let's keep going. So 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:36.239 so so we kind of started in twenty ten and 0:44:38.000 --> 0:44:43.120 we picked up one really good job almost immediately the 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:45.800 Sydney which was a big redo which we're about to 0:44:46.520 --> 0:44:49.680 we're about to open the stage three in about two months, 0:44:49.680 --> 0:44:53.040 which is we've got three holes to do it in 0:44:53.200 --> 0:44:56.200 stage four. So it was so we're opening sort of 0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:59.120 five holes in a month. So we got that job 0:44:59.200 --> 0:45:02.319 and we sort of bombing along and got a thing more. 0:45:02.600 --> 0:45:04.160 You know, we beat Greg Norman to get a big 0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:05.160 commission to beat. 0:45:05.760 --> 0:45:08.799 H to read a broad camp, which is the best 0:45:09.640 --> 0:45:13.319 it's inland course in Australia. So that was a nice 0:45:13.400 --> 0:45:17.920 job to get. You know, we've done pretty well since. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:21.600 Really I think we've done some good work with I 0:45:21.680 --> 0:45:33.759 mean really Pine. If I think about our business, I 0:45:33.840 --> 0:45:36.360 mean that would underrate the tremendous talents of Mark and 0:45:36.400 --> 0:45:39.239 Ashley who were I mean Jeff one day a few 0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:41.359 years ago came to me and said, screwing these guys. 0:45:43.080 --> 0:45:46.240 So yeah, you look at every. 0:45:47.640 --> 0:45:51.640 Really good design business around the world now and whether 0:45:51.680 --> 0:45:54.280 it's Skill Hands or Tom Dak or Bill Corn Ben Crunchaw, 0:45:54.360 --> 0:45:56.640 but there are really talented people who work for those 0:45:56.680 --> 0:45:59.319 guys who who make them and. 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:00.399 Us all look good. 0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:06.200 So it'll be an incredibly simplistic thing to look at 0:46:06.200 --> 0:46:08.920 the names of the people at the top of the 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:11.439 ladderhead and think they were the ones who were doing 0:46:11.480 --> 0:46:13.080 all the work and they were the ones that were. 0:46:13.040 --> 0:46:15.399 Really responsible for the work, because it goes much deeper 0:46:15.440 --> 0:46:18.239 than that. Yeah, you know, if you spoke to Bill Coy, 0:46:19.920 --> 0:46:20.480 he would. 0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:23.680 Tell you all the guys who make him look really good, 0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:27.520 and he's you know, I think you can make an 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:30.440 argument that Bill is one of the great designers of 0:46:30.480 --> 0:46:33.000 all time, you know, if not the greatest. 0:46:33.600 --> 0:46:34.920 You know, I think at this point if you were 0:46:34.960 --> 0:46:35.200 going to. 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:38.959 Put one guy up against Kenzie and telling Harson Roster 0:46:39.040 --> 0:46:41.040 and then it would be Bill core because he's a 0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:44.200 you know, look at the court the causes that he 0:46:44.239 --> 0:46:48.040 and Ben have done that they've really transformed the modern game, 0:46:48.080 --> 0:46:51.000 I think, and Santells was a breakthrough golf course. 0:46:51.040 --> 0:46:53.279 It showed everyone what to do. 0:46:53.440 --> 0:46:57.040 And you know, any modern arctor who hasn't studied the Santeless, 0:46:58.040 --> 0:47:00.880 you know, their educations to fish in one sense, and 0:47:01.520 --> 0:47:03.200 you know, I was lucky enough to pay Sam Valley, 0:47:03.239 --> 0:47:05.920 which is the new course I've just done out in Wisconsin. 0:47:06.040 --> 0:47:08.800 And you know, in some ways I was talking to 0:47:08.920 --> 0:47:12.560 Mike about Mirke Cocking about today, was you know, in 0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:15.960 some ways that's when you talk about con cruential courses. 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:18.239 It's you could you could say, well, they're all kind 0:47:18.239 --> 0:47:21.879 of the same, but in a sense they are, but yeah, 0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:22.440 they're all the same. 0:47:22.440 --> 0:47:27.400 They're just all great and yeah you can recognize that 0:47:27.520 --> 0:47:29.040 look and the type of golf they like and the 0:47:29.080 --> 0:47:32.520 type of golf they build. You know, if you were 0:47:32.560 --> 0:47:34.480 going to be critical of them, which I'm certainly not, 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:36.680 you could say, well you've seen one, you've seen a 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:39.560 few of them, but every single course you go to, well, 0:47:39.640 --> 0:47:42.759 well you can see that, Bill, I've done it. But 0:47:44.400 --> 0:47:44.879 they're all. 0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:47.799 Tremendous golf courses. And you can say the same about 0:47:47.960 --> 0:47:51.880 Alison McKenzie. Really, I mean Augusta and people talk about, 0:47:52.280 --> 0:47:56.000 you know, there's this stupid line in Australia that such 0:47:56.040 --> 0:47:59.160 and such a golf course as Australia's Augusta, And it 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:02.040 used to be raw because because it was Hellion, it 0:48:02.120 --> 0:48:05.320 had pine trees and it was There's a course in 0:48:05.440 --> 0:48:08.479 northern New South Wales that people called Australia's Augusta because 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:10.759 it's got it's got green grass on it. 0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:11.239 I think, but. 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:17.439 You know, I mean, you know, as Tom Doug said, 0:48:18.120 --> 0:48:21.840 Gus Royal Melbourne is the course Augusta wants to be, 0:48:24.000 --> 0:48:26.960 So Augusta is almost America's rural Melbourns. 0:48:28.360 --> 0:48:29.719 That's the way I kind of look at it. But 0:48:34.040 --> 0:48:35.560 you know, the lessons of. 0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:41.160 Golfers only got golf design a timeless. Really, I mean 0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:43.120 you look at Royal Melbourne or Gusta and Standrews and 0:48:44.400 --> 0:48:46.799 I think, people, you know, the guys who are doing 0:48:46.880 --> 0:48:49.279 really good work now look look at those courses and 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:52.120 study them and understand them and try and replicate the 0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:55.320 things that make those courses great and the great modern 0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:58.160 courses of throwbacks. 0:48:57.680 --> 0:48:58.080 To that era. 0:48:58.200 --> 0:49:03.439 Really, yeah, I think I I echo your thoughts about 0:49:03.600 --> 0:49:09.200 Corn Crenshaw. You know, sand Valley was unbelievable. That's a 0:49:09.880 --> 0:49:12.399 great new golf course. And then I just got done 0:49:12.440 --> 0:49:15.960 playing stream Song Red and I thought that was fantastic. 0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:19.879 I mean the way they I just love the way 0:49:20.040 --> 0:49:23.880 they are able to blend playability. And then you know, 0:49:24.640 --> 0:49:27.840 I noticed like all the you know, it's all about angles, 0:49:27.920 --> 0:49:31.440 and you know, being the ideal line for somebody that's 0:49:31.480 --> 0:49:35.160 looking to score is always along. You know, there's a 0:49:35.320 --> 0:49:38.160 risk to taking that line and you can always sail 0:49:38.200 --> 0:49:41.480 out right, but then you have just usually a very 0:49:41.719 --> 0:49:45.560 very difficult shot to get back and you know, to 0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:50.440 have a birdie chance. And I just it's amazing when 0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:53.120 you start to play them and you start to realize, like, 0:49:53.600 --> 0:49:55.880 you know, the ideal line on this hole is a 0:49:56.160 --> 0:49:59.239 you know, four hundred and eighty yard Part four is 0:49:59.600 --> 0:50:02.680 right hugging a you know, it's hugging the left side 0:50:02.680 --> 0:50:05.920 of the fairway where there's a thirty foot bunker, you know, 0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:09.239 and sure you've got sixty yards the bail out right, 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:12.160 but then you you've got it just an awful angle 0:50:12.200 --> 0:50:15.600 into a green that slopes away and it's just brilliant. 0:50:15.719 --> 0:50:19.239 It's uh, you know, it's it's it's it's special. You 0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:23.520 know when you can start to see that, yeah, and it's. 0:50:23.440 --> 0:50:27.279 Not I would be the first tom. I mean, this 0:50:27.360 --> 0:50:28.919 is not rocket science. This stuff a moment. 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:32.399 It's just replicating the sentiment color n All the road 0:50:32.440 --> 0:50:36.200 holes and Andrews or Yeah, it's not you know, it's 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:37.640 not that they've discovered anything new. 0:50:37.680 --> 0:50:39.239 It's just you know, they put it. 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.560 Beautifully on the ground, and you know, they choose projects 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:45.200 where the land is great that they just build great 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:48.239 golf and it's not anything genius or anything new. It's 0:50:48.320 --> 0:50:51.400 just you know, it's just beautiful golf they building and 0:50:51.480 --> 0:50:53.960 it's great fun to play in. Yeah, I mean, Fry's 0:50:53.960 --> 0:50:55.960 Heads a tremendous golf of course. I've payed there a 0:50:56.000 --> 0:50:58.120 couple of times, and it's a it's a beautiful place 0:50:58.200 --> 0:51:01.920 to play golf. And I wonder whether they really care about, 0:51:02.280 --> 0:51:04.080 you know, the modern young player, who's. 0:51:03.880 --> 0:51:06.480 The both thrown twenty yards. I mean, you know, you know, 0:51:06.520 --> 0:51:07.080 I suspeak. 0:51:07.120 --> 0:51:08.719 Bill Will throws hands up and say, well, I glad 0:51:08.760 --> 0:51:10.719 I'm not trying to design golf course with those guys, 0:51:11.360 --> 0:51:15.239 because you know, as Jeff said many times, he said, 0:51:15.440 --> 0:51:16.920 why would you want to design a course for us? 0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:18.799 Becaus no one will want to play it? That's true. 0:51:19.400 --> 0:51:21.239 Who wants to play a golfer? Of course? That's going 0:51:21.320 --> 0:51:23.400 to test those guys because. 0:51:23.200 --> 0:51:25.279 No one else can play it, and who wants to 0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:27.120 play a golf course, whether I have Tea's back there 0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:30.000 that are eighty yards back and everything's out of scale 0:51:30.000 --> 0:51:33.279 and nothing seems quite right because of these you know, 0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:35.200 where do we play from them? I mean, it's just, 0:51:36.600 --> 0:51:38.600 you know, again, it goes back to the disaster of 0:51:38.640 --> 0:51:40.279 the ball and what it's done to the game. 0:51:40.360 --> 0:51:42.520 And you know, I kind of like the fact that 0:51:42.640 --> 0:51:46.120 Mike Kaiser and Bill and Ben and you know, Gil 0:51:46.960 --> 0:51:49.520 don't really care about how. 0:51:51.120 --> 0:51:54.600 You know, the the young modern strong player plays the 0:51:54.680 --> 0:51:58.440 game because it's not you know, they're not designing courses 0:51:58.480 --> 0:52:01.120 for those, because they're designing fun courses for the rest 0:52:01.160 --> 0:52:03.560 of people to play golf. But but I wasn't the 0:52:03.680 --> 0:52:05.480 game would be more fun for the young kids if 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:07.840 they could play the golf course is much more like 0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:08.320 the way. 0:52:08.200 --> 0:52:13.239 We played them, but they can't because you got ready 0:52:13.360 --> 0:52:15.040 straining editor again, man, it was a it was a 0:52:15.120 --> 0:52:18.360 pitch and put final, really, so. 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:23.320 We got we got a ton of Twitter questions and 0:52:23.719 --> 0:52:26.680 I definitely want to get to them because you know, 0:52:26.760 --> 0:52:29.960 we just got a lot of great ones here, so 0:52:30.840 --> 0:52:33.520 uh and a lot of them are based around architecture, 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:36.680 So I think it'd be good to dive in here 0:52:36.760 --> 0:52:39.920 and it can. Some of them are on your projects. 0:52:41.320 --> 0:52:46.640 So from Tony dear, what's the latest on seven Mile 0:52:46.800 --> 0:52:50.040 Beach and what's the schedule at Shady Oaks? 0:52:51.760 --> 0:52:54.479 Well, seven mops is, of course in Hobo we're talking about. 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:57.600 So you know, it's one of those things that you 0:52:57.760 --> 0:52:59.239 just kind of sit and wait and you hope that 0:52:59.560 --> 0:53:00.960 the guys going to do what's going to do it, 0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:04.520 And I think we're all pretty hopefully is so we're 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.520 sitting and waiting and waiting for the client to say, yeah, 0:53:08.600 --> 0:53:11.000 let's go and do it. So that's where that one's 0:53:11.040 --> 0:53:18.399 At Shady Oaks, we're doing the Hogan's car little practice course, 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:22.240 little nine hole course in the middle of the golf course. 0:53:22.040 --> 0:53:24.320 Where Hogan used to go and practice, which was a 0:53:24.400 --> 0:53:27.000 really rudimentary part three course with one short Part four 0:53:27.080 --> 0:53:30.760 and just a little basic ground greens with shapeless bumpers, 0:53:30.800 --> 0:53:34.560 and so we did three holes last year. 0:53:35.640 --> 0:53:40.880 As we speak, we're shaping the the six remaining holes. 0:53:42.280 --> 0:53:44.799 So it's kind of a there with some really cool 0:53:44.920 --> 0:53:47.440 I mean I mean nothing sort of flashy bunkers, some 0:53:47.520 --> 0:53:48.279 well shaped. 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:53.799 Bunkers and cool greens, some with the idea that it's 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:55.280 still a nine hole Part three course. 0:53:55.360 --> 0:53:58.239 But you can really go out and throw a bag 0:53:58.280 --> 0:54:01.080 of balls down anywhere and play great shots to any green. 0:54:01.160 --> 0:54:04.120 And you can play great holes from wherever you choose 0:54:04.160 --> 0:54:06.960 to play them from. So the knife was a kind 0:54:07.000 --> 0:54:09.480 of a path three across the across the kind of 0:54:09.520 --> 0:54:12.520 a gouged out, sort of creaky baranca thing in front 0:54:12.520 --> 0:54:15.279 of the green. But we're building a tea on the 0:54:15.360 --> 0:54:18.600 other side of the fourth fairway to create what is 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:20.759 a really cool three and a sixty yard part four 0:54:21.160 --> 0:54:23.839 with a great you know, perfectly placed for a bank 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:26.600 and a really cool hold of place. And so when 0:54:26.640 --> 0:54:28.719 the course is not busy, you know, if you want 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:31.879 to go out and practice your drives or go play 0:54:31.920 --> 0:54:33.640 a hole in a really cool hole, you can do that. 0:54:35.040 --> 0:54:39.440 So the idea is to have the golf limited only 0:54:39.480 --> 0:54:43.239 by your imagination. Really, so throw balls down anywhere and 0:54:43.560 --> 0:54:46.719 heat shots to any green. And plus it's the course 0:54:46.760 --> 0:54:48.080 where you could take. 0:54:49.640 --> 0:54:51.960 Any six or seven or eight year old kid and 0:54:52.000 --> 0:54:53.000 teach them how to play golf. 0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:56.799 Yeah, so you know you can. 0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:01.400 There's no reason why you couldn't learn to be a 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:04.880 tour class player playing only those nine holes. But because 0:55:04.880 --> 0:55:06.439 there will be every shot you can imagine to play. 0:55:07.400 --> 0:55:08.960 I think that a parts from playing shots out of 0:55:09.000 --> 0:55:11.880 long grass, which there'll be none of that, so you 0:55:12.000 --> 0:55:13.239 might have to learn how to play out of long 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:16.640 grass by going somewhere else. But but you know, it's 0:55:16.680 --> 0:55:20.280 a it's a it's a really cool place to practice. 0:55:20.280 --> 0:55:22.560 It in a cool place to play. And then they 0:55:22.719 --> 0:55:25.600 close the main course to rebuild it in two thousand 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:31.160 and I think nineteen is the plans. So they would 0:55:31.200 --> 0:55:32.719 just shut the main course for a year and we'll 0:55:33.160 --> 0:55:33.640 rebuild it. 0:55:34.200 --> 0:55:34.719 That's cool. 0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:37.359 So it's a you know, it's a cool place to work. 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:41.040 I mean Ben Hogan died, he left, he left every 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:43.200 club he had to the club pro there, Mike right. 0:55:43.280 --> 0:55:46.200 I mean there are nine hundred clubs lying around that 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:47.840 well not lying around that golf cup in in. 0:55:47.920 --> 0:55:51.000 Racks and sitting around the pro shop. And it's such an. 0:55:50.960 --> 0:55:53.560 Amazing place to go really and just look around at 0:55:53.600 --> 0:55:55.080 the history of that place is incredible. 0:55:55.120 --> 0:55:57.600 So it's a it's a fun place to work in. 0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:00.759 Bruce Devian's a member there who was one of my 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:04.000 you along with Peter Thompson, he was the you know, 0:56:04.239 --> 0:56:06.080 they were my two heroes when when I was. 0:56:06.120 --> 0:56:06.960 A twelve year old kid. 0:56:07.000 --> 0:56:09.520 I mean you would go and watch they were the 0:56:09.560 --> 0:56:11.720 two guys to watch in Australia play golf and definitely 0:56:11.719 --> 0:56:13.400 would come out and play in Australia every year. And 0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:15.440 I watched him play a lot of golf and I 0:56:16.000 --> 0:56:17.400 played with him when I was an amateur. And the 0:56:17.400 --> 0:56:20.879 Austrain Open ten years after I first watched him play 0:56:20.880 --> 0:56:24.040 in this Train Open at Kingston Heathen, So you know, 0:56:24.120 --> 0:56:26.120 it's kind of cool to go back there and meet 0:56:26.200 --> 0:56:28.319 him as a I want to say, he's an old man. 0:56:28.360 --> 0:56:30.440 He's probably eighty years old, but he looks tremendous for 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:33.920 his age. And you know, it's a funny journey through 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:37.800 life that you've kind of come across someone who it 0:56:37.960 --> 0:56:40.200 was your boyhood hero really and here he is a 0:56:41.480 --> 0:56:43.120 remember the golf cup that you're going to dig up 0:56:43.120 --> 0:56:47.920 and rebuild. So in a sense it's fun and in 0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:50.239 a sense it's a pretty big responsibility not to mess 0:56:50.280 --> 0:56:50.520 it up. 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:55.520 Yeah, I mean, that's so cool. I love the concept 0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:59.840 with the nine hole course. I think that is exactly 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:04.160 what golf should be. I was talking to somebody who 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:07.440 runs a first D program and I was saying, how 0:57:07.719 --> 0:57:11.319 you know their facilities should just be places with wall 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:15.360 to wall fairways and a few greens bunkers and just 0:57:15.520 --> 0:57:17.640 let the kids learn how to get the ball in 0:57:17.720 --> 0:57:19.800 the hole and tee it up wherever they want and 0:57:19.880 --> 0:57:21.960 play you know, golf that way. 0:57:23.160 --> 0:57:27.800 Yeah, and it's really the dream practice fell I mean, 0:57:28.560 --> 0:57:33.200 Susan member there and you know we from the seventh 0:57:33.280 --> 0:57:36.320 t You can hit straight so a seven nine shot, 0:57:36.400 --> 0:57:38.040 but you can you can stay on that tee and 0:57:38.120 --> 0:57:40.440 hit a long drawer into the second green and a 0:57:40.560 --> 0:57:44.200 long fade into the third green. One hundred and seventy 0:57:44.280 --> 0:57:47.680 or eighty yarch shots and ninety yuch shots, so you 0:57:47.760 --> 0:57:51.320 can stand there for hours and practice, you know, the 0:57:51.480 --> 0:57:54.840 three basic shots in golf, the straight shot, the drawer shut, 0:57:54.880 --> 0:57:57.000 and the fade shot. And yeah, you know you're playing 0:57:57.000 --> 0:57:58.120 shots in the beautiful grains. 0:57:58.160 --> 0:57:59.920 It's a beautiful environment and a tree. 0:58:00.960 --> 0:58:02.760 As I said, there's no reason why, you know, a 0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:06.560 kid couldn't learn to be a scratch player just playing 0:58:06.600 --> 0:58:08.760 that nine golf course because they'll be every shot they want. 0:58:09.960 --> 0:58:17.840 That's cool. So a question from Nick Mackie, what's the 0:58:18.160 --> 0:58:21.320 trend in modern design you'd like to see it go away? 0:58:22.280 --> 0:58:28.160 And what's your favorite course in Austria and as outside 0:58:28.160 --> 0:58:31.240 of Melbourne, So I assume that's Australia, right. 0:58:33.480 --> 0:58:35.480 The trend in modern design you'd like to see you 0:58:35.520 --> 0:58:41.120 go away, Well, I'm huge on the on modern design. 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:46.360 I think there's you could argue that Sint Sandels has 0:58:46.400 --> 0:58:48.880 been the most productive period of golf courses on ever, 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:53.120 perhaps even better than the Golden Age from what nineteen 0:58:53.200 --> 0:58:57.920 thirteen to nine thirty augusta really, so you know, certainly 0:58:57.960 --> 0:58:58.840 I think it rivals it. 0:58:59.320 --> 0:59:03.840 So I'm huge on the the quality of modern design. 0:59:04.040 --> 0:59:08.560 I mean, I think that in terms of modern television golf, 0:59:08.600 --> 0:59:12.080 the curse of long grass. I just I don't think 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:14.520 that golf is best played out out of long grass. 0:59:14.720 --> 0:59:18.040 I mean, it's what to a prose want because they 0:59:18.080 --> 0:59:19.720 want predictability of punishment. 0:59:20.560 --> 0:59:22.840 They want to know that if someone is the ball 0:59:22.880 --> 0:59:25.600 off line, they get the same punishment they do for 0:59:25.680 --> 0:59:29.080 the same shot. And you know, I mean, golf's much 0:59:29.160 --> 0:59:32.400 more fun when the punishment is random. And dealing with 0:59:32.480 --> 0:59:35.800 the unfairness of golf or the lucky break or the 0:59:36.280 --> 0:59:38.720 good the good or the bad break is I mean, 0:59:38.760 --> 0:59:40.800 that's the whole mental challenge of the game is So 0:59:41.840 --> 0:59:45.600 you know, I think that pro golfers sanitized the game 0:59:45.680 --> 0:59:48.480 down to the point where you know, it's really a 0:59:48.560 --> 0:59:51.640 test of execution as opposed to a test of thought 0:59:51.720 --> 0:59:52.640 and executions. 0:59:52.800 --> 0:59:55.200 So modern televised golf. 0:59:55.800 --> 0:59:57.040 You know, if I was going to change that, I 0:59:57.280 --> 1:00:02.520 would change that the emphasis on fanness and the use 1:00:02.560 --> 1:00:06.320 of long graster, but to create an equity of punishment, 1:00:06.320 --> 1:00:08.000 because I don't think the best courses do that. 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:10.400 I think golf is much more random than that. 1:00:11.640 --> 1:00:17.320 My favorite course in Australia outside of Melbourne, well probably 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:20.880 I'm in the course of Bamburgle, the Bill Cause course 1:00:20.920 --> 1:00:21.920 of Lost Farm, and the course we. 1:00:21.960 --> 1:00:24.320 Did with Tom Doker. Of course I've got a great 1:00:24.440 --> 1:00:34.040 fan affection four. Yeah, the courses outside of tricky. 1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:37.040 That's a tricky question for me because we're actually we've 1:00:37.080 --> 1:00:39.280 been lucky enough to work in the best course in Perth, 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:41.080 the best course in Brisbane. 1:00:41.960 --> 1:00:44.840 And one of the best two or three courses in Sydney. 1:00:44.880 --> 1:00:46.840 So it's difficult to answer that question with that nominally 1:00:46.920 --> 1:00:53.960 one of our own courses. But yeah, let me pick 1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:58.360 a course in New Zealand apart from parap around Beach, 1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:00.360 which is a course. 1:01:00.200 --> 1:01:02.480 I like Russell did there's a really cool course called 1:01:02.600 --> 1:01:05.920 Arrowtown in Queenstown. Now Queenstown has become a bit of 1:01:06.000 --> 1:01:11.720 a center of high end, expensive golf. I think the 1:01:12.760 --> 1:01:17.440 Jack's Point and the Hills are probably green fees somewhere 1:01:17.480 --> 1:01:20.040 between two three or four hundred. I think the Hills 1:01:20.160 --> 1:01:23.000 is five hundred dollars, but Jack's Point might be two hundred. 1:01:23.840 --> 1:01:26.240 But there's a really cool little course called Arrowtown which 1:01:26.240 --> 1:01:28.280 is right down the road from the Hills, which is 1:01:28.320 --> 1:01:32.480 about forty bucks a round, and it's a tremendous little course. 1:01:32.520 --> 1:01:35.240 So anyone who goes to the South Island of New 1:01:35.360 --> 1:01:38.880 Zealand got of Arrowtown. It's one of the most unique 1:01:38.920 --> 1:01:41.240 golf courses in the world. So if I was to 1:01:41.320 --> 1:01:44.000 pick a favorite golf course outside of Melbourne in Australia, 1:01:44.400 --> 1:01:46.680 let me pick Arrowtown in New Zealand, which is kind 1:01:46.720 --> 1:01:50.080 of cheating. But one who happens to go to Queenstown 1:01:50.160 --> 1:01:52.200 do not miss playing an Arrowtown because you can get 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:55.400 you can get ten pounds ten rounds for the price 1:01:55.440 --> 1:01:58.600 of one, and I promise you you'll have ten times 1:01:58.640 --> 1:01:59.040 more fun. 1:01:59.120 --> 1:02:04.280 And it's a really you know, some much a word 1:02:05.120 --> 1:02:08.320 overused word unique, but it's a truly unique golf course 1:02:08.360 --> 1:02:10.040 in the you know, it's a course that everyone should see. 1:02:10.560 --> 1:02:11.560 That's that's awesome. 1:02:11.720 --> 1:02:12.160 I love that. 1:02:12.280 --> 1:02:15.360 It's a great value. It's finding those gems are are 1:02:16.080 --> 1:02:18.800 the most fun. You know, playing the best courses of 1:02:18.920 --> 1:02:22.520 the are great, but when you find like a really great, 1:02:22.680 --> 1:02:26.680 little unique gem that nobody knows about, that's really great. 1:02:27.360 --> 1:02:30.520 Is the I think that's the most fun about discovery 1:02:30.680 --> 1:02:38.720 golf courses. Let's go with uh, which course would you 1:02:39.240 --> 1:02:42.200 most like to renovate or restore. 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:55.400 In Australia, anywhere, anywhere? Anywhere? Well, let me that's another 1:02:55.440 --> 1:02:56.040 interesting question. 1:02:57.000 --> 1:02:59.880 If someone had asked me that question, Well, people did 1:02:59.880 --> 1:03:02.919 that asked me that question often, and always the answer 1:03:03.000 --> 1:03:07.560 was rayal camera. So normally my answer would be rayal camera, 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:09.040 except that we did get the chance to do that 1:03:09.160 --> 1:03:10.760 and we opened it. 1:03:11.160 --> 1:03:13.640 Jeff and I opened it the Monday of aus Train 1:03:13.720 --> 1:03:18.680 open this year, So that was always my stock answer, 1:03:18.680 --> 1:03:23.720 but we actually got to do that once. So it's 1:03:23.720 --> 1:03:29.720 a let me come back to that one. 1:03:29.760 --> 1:03:32.240 I'll think about it over the next five minutes and 1:03:32.280 --> 1:03:35.880 come back with a better answer than Because you know, 1:03:36.280 --> 1:03:38.680 all the all of the great courses in Britain that 1:03:38.760 --> 1:03:42.440 I really loved. There wasn't one that you ever went 1:03:42.520 --> 1:03:44.120 to and thought, wow, this would be a great course 1:03:44.160 --> 1:03:46.680 if you could only fix it. Yeah, yeah, you know, 1:03:46.720 --> 1:03:49.720 there were many examples in Australia of courses that I 1:03:49.840 --> 1:03:51.560 thought it would be a really good course if you 1:03:51.640 --> 1:03:53.920 could fix it, And we've been lucky enough to have 1:03:54.000 --> 1:03:57.120 the chance to fix a few of them. But not 1:03:57.240 --> 1:03:59.240 every member would say that, but you know I would 1:03:59.320 --> 1:04:00.560 use that fix adjective. 1:04:01.360 --> 1:04:04.720 But yeah, you go to Britain and you see. 1:04:06.440 --> 1:04:09.480 You have many great golf courses are in England and 1:04:09.600 --> 1:04:12.240 I think you know, I never crossed that. I never 1:04:12.440 --> 1:04:15.360 came across the course there where well perhaps one went 1:04:15.440 --> 1:04:19.320 Worth let me throw and Wentworth in there because wow 1:04:19.400 --> 1:04:21.280 that was a you know, Harry Cult course that. 1:04:24.560 --> 1:04:29.000 Got derailed. Yes, so we're not going to get the 1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:31.080 job that went with. But you know, I think if 1:04:31.120 --> 1:04:32.800 someone could for one of. 1:04:34.600 --> 1:04:36.720 Use for a better clich they make Wentworth great again, 1:04:37.480 --> 1:04:38.520 that would be a pretty cool. 1:04:38.440 --> 1:04:41.080 Job to do for someone. So someone's I'm not who's 1:04:41.080 --> 1:04:41.320 going to. 1:04:41.320 --> 1:04:43.680 Do that, but went with but would be in terms 1:04:43.720 --> 1:04:46.120 of English golf courses, that would be right off the 1:04:46.160 --> 1:04:46.680 top of the list. 1:04:47.160 --> 1:04:50.280 Yeah, it's you know, players don't even like playing there. 1:04:50.360 --> 1:04:55.200 It seems like. So here's a here's an interesting question 1:04:57.200 --> 1:04:59.640 from Chris. Why is it? And I know he goes 1:04:59.720 --> 1:05:03.120 down to Australia almost every year. Why is it that 1:05:03.280 --> 1:05:07.000 nowhere else can seem to replicate the Australian sand bunk 1:05:07.520 --> 1:05:12.000 belt bunkering and for those that don't know are familiar 1:05:12.080 --> 1:05:15.440 with it green, he says, greens bleeding right into the 1:05:15.480 --> 1:05:18.520 bunkers without fringe, and the faces of the bunkers are 1:05:18.640 --> 1:05:19.080 very hard. 1:05:22.600 --> 1:05:28.000 Well, you can replicate that. I think the taking of 1:05:28.160 --> 1:05:32.440 the very edges of the greens to the bunkers. I mean, 1:05:32.560 --> 1:05:35.200 certainly in loss of places you can do that, not everywhere. 1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:37.640 But the thing about SAMD bealt bunk I mean, I 1:05:37.680 --> 1:05:40.960 think it's a unique combination of the type of the 1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:44.120 sand and the soil that build out of it, and 1:05:44.600 --> 1:05:50.120 how the coach grass hold the lips together. But yeah, 1:05:50.240 --> 1:05:51.760 my answer to that question will be I don't think 1:05:51.840 --> 1:05:55.000 you want to. And I've seen people try and replicate 1:05:55.080 --> 1:05:57.440 SAMD belt bunkers in other places and it doesn't really work. 1:05:57.840 --> 1:06:02.840 I think Gil got really costin Rio and did a 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:06.160 great job built beautiful bunkers, and that I know, he 1:06:06.320 --> 1:06:08.040 based a look at those bunkers, he based them on 1:06:08.080 --> 1:06:10.880 the Sandbelt bunkers, but he didn't try and you know, 1:06:11.000 --> 1:06:14.200 exactly replicate them, because I think attempts at trying to 1:06:14.280 --> 1:06:17.680 replicate that look, I mean, they all fail. You know, 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:21.440 they just don't work very well. So I'm kind of 1:06:21.880 --> 1:06:25.560 a supporter of leaving Sampa bunkers to Melbourne and not 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:27.960 trying to replicate that look because I think, you know, 1:06:28.040 --> 1:06:30.720 they really work well in Melbourne, don't work that well 1:06:30.960 --> 1:06:33.280 anywhere else, and perhaps you can kind of I mean, 1:06:33.320 --> 1:06:35.360 people try and build them and try and get that look, 1:06:35.440 --> 1:06:37.080 but it's never quite the same. 1:06:37.200 --> 1:06:38.280 So so I think that. 1:06:39.760 --> 1:06:41.920 You know, we don't try and replicate it anywhere else 1:06:41.960 --> 1:06:45.480 but in Melbourne, so we're pretty good at doing them, 1:06:45.560 --> 1:06:47.600 I think, so for other people to try and replicate 1:06:47.640 --> 1:06:50.680 them as not a great idea because it's very difficult 1:06:50.680 --> 1:06:53.720 to do and it never really works. Yeah, so you know, 1:06:53.880 --> 1:06:55.960 you know, I think you can replicate the principles of them, 1:06:56.000 --> 1:06:59.000 but trying to replicate the exact look doesn't really work. 1:06:59.240 --> 1:07:02.280 But one thing that's really you know works, I mean 1:07:02.360 --> 1:07:06.680 the Metropolitan right plays people marvel it the fact there 1:07:06.760 --> 1:07:09.160 is no no I mean literally no fringe at all, 1:07:09.360 --> 1:07:12.000 and where we rebuilding the. 1:07:12.000 --> 1:07:14.919 Two causes of peninsula now and you know, the edges 1:07:14.920 --> 1:07:15.720 of the greens. 1:07:15.440 --> 1:07:17.040 Go right to the very edge of the buckers and 1:07:17.080 --> 1:07:19.280 it makes it, you know, it makes it. It's a 1:07:19.360 --> 1:07:23.000 really cool feature and it works really well. But you 1:07:23.080 --> 1:07:25.200 don't see it anywhere else in the world really, and 1:07:25.360 --> 1:07:29.120 it's where it's possible to do it. It's really worth 1:07:29.160 --> 1:07:29.520 trying to do. 1:07:30.400 --> 1:07:35.520 Yeah, it's imagine a lot of the soil. It's so 1:07:35.680 --> 1:07:40.560 much goes into that. So let's let's do some kind 1:07:40.600 --> 1:07:45.040 of rapid fire questions that are parts of all these 1:07:45.960 --> 1:07:51.000 questions we've got here. So how do you like the 1:07:51.080 --> 1:07:52.160 template hors. 1:07:55.920 --> 1:07:58.920 H Well, I think every hole is a copy of something, 1:08:00.120 --> 1:08:02.840 you know, and if you're finding a really unique form 1:08:02.920 --> 1:08:03.320 of land. 1:08:03.560 --> 1:08:05.920 I mean I enjoyed, you know, the National Golf things. 1:08:05.960 --> 1:08:08.840 I suppose with the first template golf course, you know, 1:08:08.880 --> 1:08:12.400 with all those holes that McDonald went and copied from Britain's. 1:08:12.560 --> 1:08:15.920 So I think they work really well. You know, you know, 1:08:15.960 --> 1:08:17.960 if you do them well that they're tremendous to play. 1:08:18.520 --> 1:08:23.360 So you know the Queen is Dental dog Lang left 1:08:23.360 --> 1:08:25.679 hole in Australia is the seven enth at Royal Melbourne 1:08:25.720 --> 1:08:28.840 with the bunker on the inside corner and you know 1:08:28.920 --> 1:08:32.519 the big of the drive and you know the big 1:08:32.600 --> 1:08:36.320 barker coming across the front right of the green and 1:08:36.439 --> 1:08:39.680 the green where every every yard you drive away from 1:08:39.760 --> 1:08:42.800 the hazard on the on the left, you know a 1:08:42.880 --> 1:08:45.439 yard heart of the second shot and that. 1:08:45.520 --> 1:08:48.479 Hole is replicated all over Melbourne. The fifteenth of Mertropolitan, 1:08:48.520 --> 1:08:49.479 the second at Spring Valley. 1:08:49.520 --> 1:08:53.160 There are a whole bunch of holes in Melbourne, the 1:08:53.320 --> 1:08:59.439 replicas of the sevenenth at Royal Melbourne. So you know, 1:08:59.479 --> 1:09:02.280 I think if you're designing, I mean we're always thinking 1:09:02.360 --> 1:09:05.120 of holes we've played before and holes we like and 1:09:05.160 --> 1:09:05.800 holes that work. 1:09:05.880 --> 1:09:11.840 And yeah, so I think in terms of what we 1:09:12.040 --> 1:09:12.799 do and what other. 1:09:12.840 --> 1:09:16.280 Designers do, I think they're always replicating the principles of 1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:20.400 the great holes. So you know the road holds Andrews 1:09:20.520 --> 1:09:25.320 is you know, it's it's a dog into the right 1:09:25.400 --> 1:09:27.439 really with the bunk on the front left of the green. 1:09:27.560 --> 1:09:31.760 But you know it's really not much different from the 1:09:32.320 --> 1:09:35.519 you know to flip of the segment, well the segment 1:09:35.560 --> 1:09:37.280 that rule was the flip of the road hole. Really, 1:09:37.680 --> 1:09:40.800 you know, again it's driver it down the boundary line 1:09:40.840 --> 1:09:42.640 and every yard left of the boundary line you go 1:09:43.080 --> 1:09:47.000 a yard more problematic for second shots. So you know, 1:09:47.000 --> 1:09:48.559 it goes back to what we were talking about before 1:09:48.560 --> 1:09:50.559 about there being nothing new and golf courses on really 1:09:50.720 --> 1:09:53.720 And I played of course this morning at portsy which 1:09:53.800 --> 1:09:56.560 is a really fun course out of Melbourne with some 1:09:57.040 --> 1:10:00.920 incredibly unique landforms and holes you won't see see anywhere else. 1:10:01.000 --> 1:10:04.400 But in the end, if you've got a standard ish 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:06.120 sort of piece of land, then you're always going to 1:10:06.160 --> 1:10:10.639 replicate the principles of the great holes. So don't play 1:10:10.680 --> 1:10:11.799 holes work pretty well really. 1:10:11.720 --> 1:10:14.880 For me, I agree. I mean it's you get in 1:10:14.960 --> 1:10:17.400 trouble when you try and reinvent the wheel, right. 1:10:18.160 --> 1:10:19.360 Yeah, yeah you do. 1:10:21.560 --> 1:10:27.600 So what who would you say is the most underappreciated architect. 1:10:31.280 --> 1:10:35.240 While in Australia, like Russell was, who was Australian Open champion. 1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:38.760 He was a wealthy kind of grazier really and he 1:10:38.880 --> 1:10:43.040 worked in politics a little bit, but he was he 1:10:43.240 --> 1:10:46.800 was Mackenzie's partner down in Australia. He did the East 1:10:46.880 --> 1:10:50.080 Course at real moment yarra yarra, like carrying up and 1:10:51.160 --> 1:10:53.800 power param in New Zealand's so he didn't do many 1:10:53.880 --> 1:10:56.640 golf courses. He was really a part time architect in 1:10:56.680 --> 1:11:01.320 a sense. But here's some tremendous work down here. So 1:11:01.960 --> 1:11:03.920 you know, Russell was great in this part of the world. 1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:06.800 I mean, I'm not sure if Tom Simpson is underrated, 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:11.280 but I mean more Fontaine is. You know, it would 1:11:11.280 --> 1:11:16.240 be one of my top five or ten days out 1:11:16.280 --> 1:11:18.960 playing golf in the world. It's an incredible golf course 1:11:19.040 --> 1:11:25.400 that Simpson did. So Simpson's perhaps is you know, somebody 1:11:25.400 --> 1:11:29.519 who doesn't get to credit for the greatness of his work. 1:11:29.600 --> 1:11:32.519 But you know, I always love playing his courses. 1:11:32.840 --> 1:11:35.760 I heard there's a new book out about Simpson that's 1:11:35.880 --> 1:11:36.320 really good. 1:11:36.600 --> 1:11:39.000 I haven't Yeah there is, Yeah, it's good. Yeah. 1:11:41.400 --> 1:11:45.160 What of the courses you've designed, which are the most 1:11:45.680 --> 1:11:48.640 which are you most proud of? And that's from als Or. 1:11:53.439 --> 1:11:56.439 Well, we did Bamboogo with Tom and Tom Doak, and 1:11:56.479 --> 1:11:59.839 I think, you know, that's been a pretty successful development 1:11:59.840 --> 1:12:00.880 and fun course to play. 1:12:00.920 --> 1:12:04.200 But the course we've done on our own, that's I mean, 1:12:04.280 --> 1:12:06.120 mostly our work's been read on. We've done a couple. 1:12:06.479 --> 1:12:08.920 I mean rand Feller was a new golf course and 1:12:09.320 --> 1:12:11.880 Royal Queensland was basically a new golf course. He lost 1:12:12.560 --> 1:12:16.400 six holes and we basically rebuilt the entire golf course 1:12:16.439 --> 1:12:20.559 on the original piece of land. But you know, it's 1:12:20.560 --> 1:12:22.519 easy to just to sort of alert to the last 1:12:22.600 --> 1:12:25.360 job you did. But I thought we did a great 1:12:25.439 --> 1:12:29.080 job at Royal Canberra. I think that was it was 1:12:29.160 --> 1:12:32.040 a very pretty place to play golf. It was a 1:12:32.120 --> 1:12:37.519 nice environment, the course was in good condition. But Inau 1:12:37.640 --> 1:12:39.280 I never thought it was much of a golf course. 1:12:39.400 --> 1:12:41.639 It was once rated fifth in Australia, and I think 1:12:41.680 --> 1:12:45.240 it had kind of slid down the rankings to about 1:12:45.840 --> 1:12:48.040 where it should have been, which was about fifty or sixty. 1:12:49.479 --> 1:12:52.599 And a friend of mine, who is a young kid 1:12:52.680 --> 1:13:06.960 but who lived he spent six Snat's University doing out 1:13:07.000 --> 1:13:12.040 of his engineering degree over there golf course. 1:13:12.120 --> 1:13:15.280 Now he's thought about golf course of line and he 1:13:15.320 --> 1:13:17.200 played He played Rol Camber the other day and he 1:13:17.280 --> 1:13:17.719 rang up. 1:13:18.160 --> 1:13:20.120 Driving out of the game and said, wow, it's really good. 1:13:20.880 --> 1:13:23.040 So you know, it's always nice to get the opinion 1:13:23.040 --> 1:13:24.600 of someone who's sent it for the first time and 1:13:24.680 --> 1:13:28.840 who actually got it. And you know, I think we 1:13:28.920 --> 1:13:31.320 did a pretty good job. There's so I would say, 1:13:32.720 --> 1:13:34.479 you know, the worker. I think World Camberra was a 1:13:34.479 --> 1:13:35.880 really good job and turned out really well. 1:13:36.880 --> 1:13:40.280 That's cool. It's always nice. I'm sure to hear praise 1:13:40.360 --> 1:13:45.400 from somebody that's got a good eye for golf courses. Yeah, yeah, 1:13:47.760 --> 1:13:52.840 last question I really appreciate all the time. If you 1:13:52.920 --> 1:13:55.640 had five courses that you could play the rest of 1:13:55.680 --> 1:14:00.679 your life, and you know, obviously location and the assume 1:14:00.760 --> 1:14:03.680 all fiver in your backyard, what five would they be? 1:14:07.600 --> 1:14:12.280 Five? Of course, more Fontaine I would play, I would 1:14:12.320 --> 1:14:18.920 play Woking, I would play m I would play sand Hills, 1:14:20.160 --> 1:14:22.320 I would play the National Golf Links, and I would 1:14:22.439 --> 1:14:24.880 play Royal Melbourne. How is that for fun? I mean, 1:14:25.320 --> 1:14:27.960 that's kind of the unanswerable question. But you try and 1:14:28.080 --> 1:14:34.240 create as much vari Well, that's ridiculous. 1:14:33.840 --> 1:14:35.800 Because I leave out the old courses, and I can't 1:14:35.840 --> 1:14:38.479 leave out the old courses. So give me six and 1:14:38.520 --> 1:14:40.240 the old course will be number one. But you know, 1:14:40.280 --> 1:14:43.439 I love playing golf at moll Fontaine because I love it. 1:14:43.560 --> 1:14:48.560 It's the most beautiful clubhouse in the world. And we 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:50.680 have a drink in Australia which I never which I 1:14:50.720 --> 1:14:55.519 haven't had for years, orange juice and lemonade, and I 1:14:55.600 --> 1:14:56.680 was a drinker. I had a lot when I was 1:14:56.680 --> 1:14:59.920 a kid, and I played with Billy Lomia, great friend 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:01.680 mine who played Europe in two. A few years we 1:15:01.720 --> 1:15:02.639 went to more Fontana. 1:15:02.640 --> 1:15:05.120 It was a hot day and for some reason we 1:15:05.240 --> 1:15:06.960 went to this end of the bar and I said, 1:15:07.760 --> 1:15:12.120 orange and lemonade. The French lady who just to be 1:15:12.160 --> 1:15:14.680 behind the bar, rich down under the bar, pull out 1:15:14.720 --> 1:15:17.320 and Orange cut it in half hands, squeezed it and 1:15:17.479 --> 1:15:21.160 poured it with lemonade. And it's like the couple does that. 1:15:21.840 --> 1:15:23.120 That's gonna be the best place in the world to 1:15:23.120 --> 1:15:25.920 play golf. So so more Fontaine the Old Course. I mean, 1:15:25.920 --> 1:15:27.439 I'll probably give you a different answer that, but more 1:15:27.479 --> 1:15:30.679 Fontaine the Old Course working because it's something I started, 1:15:30.920 --> 1:15:31.920 cool little golf course. 1:15:31.920 --> 1:15:36.240 It's great fun sandals because it's the great modern course, 1:15:36.280 --> 1:15:38.120 the national golf things, because it was the first great 1:15:38.160 --> 1:15:38.839 course in America. 1:15:39.840 --> 1:15:45.360 And I can't remember the last one because i've you know, 1:15:45.479 --> 1:15:48.840 because it was where I you know, I watched all 1:15:48.880 --> 1:15:50.360 the great players play there. I played a lot of 1:15:50.400 --> 1:15:50.960 tourments there. 1:15:51.080 --> 1:15:55.360 I'm still you know, it's the one course that I 1:15:55.439 --> 1:15:57.560 played there last week and it's the one course I 1:15:59.040 --> 1:16:03.559 I can play after forty five years is too one. 1:16:03.640 --> 1:16:08.160 I'm in the golf course and I'm coming. I'm coming 1:16:08.240 --> 1:16:11.160 over the fact that it's in my backyard. Really yeah, 1:16:11.720 --> 1:16:13.960 And it's literally in Jeff Auguby's backyard. 1:16:13.960 --> 1:16:16.400 If you hit a long hook off the fourteenth tee 1:16:16.439 --> 1:16:18.400 on the west coast, you land in Jeff Augulby's house. 1:16:19.040 --> 1:16:22.240 So he you know, he's the luckiest gone the Willie. 1:16:22.320 --> 1:16:25.200 I mean he literally jumps the back fence and plays 1:16:25.240 --> 1:16:26.439 the beck pettic at roll Melvine. 1:16:26.439 --> 1:16:28.160 So there are not many cooler places to live in that. 1:16:28.720 --> 1:16:33.479 Yeah, seriously, it's uh, I'm guessing you're still learning little 1:16:33.520 --> 1:16:37.080 things about the course every round around. It's uh, that's 1:16:37.160 --> 1:16:38.920 usually the sign of a great course, right. 1:16:39.479 --> 1:16:40.519 It is it is? 1:16:41.080 --> 1:16:44.439 It's all right, Well, you know, I want to get 1:16:44.479 --> 1:16:47.240 you out here. I know it's probably midnight there now, 1:16:47.560 --> 1:16:52.519 and uh, I really appreciate the time. A great guest, 1:16:52.600 --> 1:16:55.000 and we'll have to have you on again. I feel 1:16:55.040 --> 1:16:57.280 like we only scratch the surface about the things we 1:16:57.360 --> 1:16:58.080 could talk about. 1:16:59.360 --> 1:17:00.760 Okay, thanks, I really enjoyed it. 1:17:00.960 --> 1:17:03.679 Yeah, definitely, and thanks again. Bye. 1:17:04.280 --> 1:17:04.800 Thanks mate,