Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my.
Speaker 3: Ball in a frid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg,
Speaker 3: Friday Frida Frida Egg bride Egg.
Speaker 2: Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of the
Speaker 1: Friday Egg podcast. UH with us this morning, bright and
Speaker 1: early and UH Florida Here and late at night in
Speaker 1: Australia is Michael Clayton.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: Michael had a long playing career. He was a professional
Speaker 1: on both the Australian and you European Tours. He won
Speaker 1: a few times and he has now become one of
Speaker 1: the games pre eminent golf course architects with his firm
Speaker 1: of o CCM. So, Michael, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2: Thank you any look forward to it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd uh. You know, I think the it would
Speaker 1: be great if you could tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about your background, how you got into golf and you know,
Speaker 1: so the reader or the listeners that don't know a
Speaker 1: ton about you can get a little info on you.
Speaker 3: Well, I grew up in Melbourne, which is the best
Speaker 3: city to play golf in Australia, as well as Sandbog courses.
Speaker 3: But I grew up on the other side of the
Speaker 3: city from the Sandbolt Radio. My parents bought a house
Speaker 3: in the back of a place called Easton Golf Club,
Speaker 3: which is now then dug out for housing in the
Speaker 3: midst of cutting rides through it and building houses. But
Speaker 3: I jumped the fence and started to caddy, and then
Speaker 3: I just started to play, and you know, I got
Speaker 3: kind of went through the system. Now, I suppose, playing
Speaker 3: schoolboy golf and junior golf and having a golf and.
Speaker 2: Peter Thompson was from here, so I spent a lot
Speaker 2: of time watching him play. And my interest in design,
Speaker 2: I suppose was you know, I grew up watching golf and.
Speaker 3: Playing golf a bit at Roy Melbourne and kes Nathan
Speaker 3: Metropolitan and Victoria, saw all the great causes in the
Speaker 3: sand belt. So it was really how how I got
Speaker 3: to where I am now, I suppose. But I started
Speaker 3: as a caddy when I played, and I love to
Speaker 3: play with it was like, you know, I guess you
Speaker 3: meet kids the same age and used play golf all
Speaker 3: every day, so that was what we did.
Speaker 1: Ye sounds a lot like my childhood. I feel like
Speaker 1: for somebody, you know, everybody kind of has like an
Speaker 1: architectural enlightening when they play, like a real the really
Speaker 1: great golf course, when you see like this is you
Speaker 1: know what golf is supposed to be.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 1: Do do you feel like that is kind of the
Speaker 1: case with you?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think I I thought, well, I watched Torments at
Speaker 3: Royal Melbourne before I played there, so I was aware
Speaker 3: that it was a really good golf course. I wasn't
Speaker 3: probably aware of quite how good, but you know, I
Speaker 3: started playing there in the mid seventies.
Speaker 2: I suppose I.
Speaker 3: Watched Torments there in the earlies. The World Cup was
Speaker 3: there in nineteen seventy two, so I you know, I
Speaker 3: guess you instinctively.
Speaker 2: Know that it's a good course. You read about it
Speaker 2: being a good course, and golfers would come out.
Speaker 3: Gary Player and Tom Weiscoff played that World Cup and
Speaker 3: they would come out and say what a great golf
Speaker 3: course it was, and you kind of, I suppose you're
Speaker 3: aware that it's a special place. And then I watched
Speaker 3: Gary Player player at Kingston Heat in nineteen seventy and.
Speaker 2: So you know, you're just a round good golf.
Speaker 3: Most cities in Australia have one or two or three
Speaker 3: or four good courses, really good courses that Melbourne's got.
Speaker 3: Melbourne in the Maynten Peninsula probably has fifteen or twenty
Speaker 3: six so it's really the center of golf in Australia.
Speaker 2: So I was lucky enough to grow up in the
Speaker 2: middle of it.
Speaker 1: That's it's interesting, I you know, Australia in Melbourne is
Speaker 1: like on a my short list for places to visit to,
Speaker 1: you know, just go on a you know, golf bench.
Speaker 1: How would you you know, having traveled the world and
Speaker 1: you know, played so many of the great courses, how
Speaker 1: would you compare Melbourne to say, like a you know,
Speaker 1: New York and Long Island or you know a Scotland
Speaker 1: in Ireland, like in terms of concentration of you know,
Speaker 1: one of those you know metro areas.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: The place I my best was London because I played
Speaker 3: in Europe for fifteen years and I lived we had
Speaker 3: a house about ten minutes down the road from Saindale
Speaker 3: for eight years, so that's the concentration of courses I
Speaker 3: know best. So if you threw the Heathland courses together
Speaker 3: with the sand Belt. I think Royal Melbourne's the best
Speaker 3: course of anything, and then Kenkstone on a par with
Speaker 3: the old courses, Saindale probably, but then if you run
Speaker 3: out the next ten I think could probably they nearly
Speaker 3: all be the Heathland courses. So in terms of the
Speaker 3: concentration of golf, I would you know, I think London's
Speaker 3: probably better in Swinley Forest and Saindale and Welton Heath,
Speaker 3: the Berkshire Woking, but there's so many.
Speaker 2: Tremendous courses over there, you know. I wonder if.
Speaker 3: It's a bitter case of already bringing a bit of
Speaker 3: contempt in Australia because I know them so well.
Speaker 2: But you know, there's a concentration of.
Speaker 3: Courses I think, I think London is pretty much unmatched.
Speaker 2: I've played a little bit in New York, I mean the.
Speaker 3: National and Maystone and I said Gina Kok and seeing
Speaker 3: those courses up there, but not so much in the city,
Speaker 3: but I mean Pine Valley, Mary and I suppose quite
Speaker 3: a way away from New York.
Speaker 2: But for me, I always thought London was an amazing
Speaker 2: place to.
Speaker 3: Play golf and not so far away the place that
Speaker 3: people don't give any credit to. But Paris has got
Speaker 3: some fantastic golf San Germain, Fontaine Blain, Lafontaine, Fronte. So
Speaker 3: so there's some tremendous courses in Paris. And as a country,
Speaker 3: I think England is an extraordinary variety of golf courses,
Speaker 3: great links courses, Ethane courses, I mean places like Knots
Speaker 3: and Ganton or Woodley. There's an amazing variety of golf
Speaker 3: in England, and in such a small space really, I
Speaker 3: mean compared with Australia and the United States. It's a
Speaker 3: tiny country and you can kind of whip through England
Speaker 3: the sort of six or eight weeks and played tremendous
Speaker 3: golf from the you know, the southwest corner up to
Speaker 3: the northeast.
Speaker 2: It's an amazing country for golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just need to convince the fiance that I
Speaker 1: need a six to eight week work trip right out
Speaker 1: in England.
Speaker 3: Well, you can come to Melbourne for a couple of weeks,
Speaker 3: into Melbourne and Tasmania, which is really becoming the center
Speaker 3: of great public course golf in Australia with two new
Speaker 3: courses on King Island and the two courts at Bambougle
Speaker 3: and so Tasmania is really taking off as a great
Speaker 3: a bit like Bandon and Came at Length and Sam
Speaker 3: Valley marke Kis is.
Speaker 2: Kind of remote golf in America.
Speaker 3: It's Tasmania has become a bit sort of that modeln
Speaker 3: Australia where the building core is on places they're not
Speaker 3: hard to get to, but you've got to make an
Speaker 3: effort to get to them.
Speaker 2: And people are finding great land and building great golf,
Speaker 2: which is a good thing for the game down here.
Speaker 1: You guys have a project out there.
Speaker 3: Correct, Well, we've got to maybe project in Hobart. There's
Speaker 3: a tremendous bit of land on a spit spit of land.
Speaker 3: Really it's just sand, dune and pine trees with water
Speaker 3: on three sides, ten minutes from Hobout airports. So how
Speaker 3: about's a decent size city. It might be the fifth
Speaker 3: or sixth or seventh biggest city in Australia. It's a
Speaker 3: couple of Tasmania it I think that's more than like
Speaker 3: it happens. So that's potentially a great project for us.
Speaker 1: Now that'd be cool. That's I mean, there's so much
Speaker 1: good golf in the world that so you know, I
Speaker 1: want to transition here into your playing career, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of came up through the Australian ranks as a
Speaker 1: great amateur player and you hit the European Tour and
Speaker 1: professional golf kind of in the in the eighties. You know,
Speaker 1: you get obviously got to, you know, with the European
Speaker 1: Tour and Australian Tour, travel the world and play some
Speaker 1: of the greatest places. But tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about what life on the European Tour was like in
Speaker 1: that time, and you know, kind of a little bit
Speaker 1: about your playing career.
Speaker 3: Well, Al he's when I first started, it was top
Speaker 3: sixty were exempt, so you just went over there and
Speaker 3: you played Mondays and if you made the cut, you
Speaker 3: kept going. So there was no way to plan what
Speaker 3: you were going to do like you can now. I
Speaker 3: mean at the start of the year you pretty much
Speaker 3: know now what you're in and what you're not. But
Speaker 3: over there was it was a matter of making the
Speaker 3: cut and playing and.
Speaker 2: If you missed it, you went back to Monday. So
Speaker 2: that was a It wasn't much fun.
Speaker 3: At the time, but I think it was a good
Speaker 3: system because I think if you if you kept playing well,
Speaker 3: you could keep going and make the cut. That way,
Speaker 3: So I played a few tomments in eighty two. Then
Speaker 3: I just missed the top sixty in my first full year,
Speaker 3: and then I won a tourment earlier the next year,
Speaker 3: so I was kind of exempt the rest of my time.
Speaker 3: And then they went to a top one twenty five
Speaker 3: system in nineteen eighty five.
Speaker 2: But back then.
Speaker 3: The tour really started in April and finished up in
Speaker 3: We would come home in the middle of September.
Speaker 2: I mean, now.
Speaker 3: Obviously it goes all year because they did what was
Speaker 3: the obvious thing, and they got outside of continental Europe
Speaker 3: and went to South Africa and the Middle East and
Speaker 3: now Australia and Asia, and so it's really become the
Speaker 3: World Tour. Well not the World Tour, but they will tour.
Speaker 3: You know, it was a time when I think, you know,
Speaker 3: the greatest privilege really was to play with sev you
Speaker 3: know his time, because I mean, for me, he was
Speaker 3: the He was the best player ever to watch play golf.
Speaker 2: He wasn't the best player, I don't think. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, Nicholas and Tiger and those guys were clearly
Speaker 2: better players, but to watch someone play golf, there was
Speaker 2: no one like that. He was the most charismatic.
Speaker 3: And and it said an overe his word. But he
Speaker 3: was I adored watching him play golf. He could hit
Speaker 3: incredible shots. He was great fun to watch. He was
Speaker 3: incredible theaters.
Speaker 2: So I think all of his contemporaries, I mean, you know.
Speaker 3: That the lower RCK players like like like we all
Speaker 3: were sort of we're in awe of how he played.
Speaker 3: But I think too, you know, if you spoke to
Speaker 3: Valdo or Langa or Sandy Lyl or was he r
Speaker 3: you know, his real contemporaries, they would all tell you.
Speaker 2: That he was the he was the main man.
Speaker 3: And you know, he was the first European to.
Speaker 2: Show that they could compete in America and play in
Speaker 2: America and win the Masters and when the Open Championship,
Speaker 2: and so you know, playing his time was really incredible.
Speaker 3: I don't think there's anybody sens who's I mean, Roy's
Speaker 3: you know, his own man and great to watch in
Speaker 3: his own way.
Speaker 2: But I think they'll ever be able. Well, I suppose Palmer.
Speaker 3: I saw Palma play when he was an old man,
Speaker 3: really in the opening or when when I say old.
Speaker 3: I saw him playing in the open it Millfield in
Speaker 3: eighty seven and he played down here in Australia. He
Speaker 3: played at my club at Metropolitan in ninety seventy eight.
Speaker 3: But you know, for me, Sebbe was the guy to watch.
Speaker 3: He was incredible. Really, I thought, do.
Speaker 1: You feel like in a certain way, I really think,
Speaker 1: like I think back to my my childhood and unfortunately
Speaker 1: I'm too young to have like, you know, really seen
Speaker 1: Brian Sebby. But you know, Tiger Woods was you know,
Speaker 1: the guy that led to you know, kind of my
Speaker 1: generation in this golf explosion. Do you feel like Sevvy
Speaker 1: kind of had that effect on the on the world
Speaker 1: and and in Europe especially where you know he got
Speaker 1: you know, kind of what a a surgeon, you know,
Speaker 1: popularity of golf within like you know, younger generations.
Speaker 2: Well he said in Europe, I mean he brought that
Speaker 2: to it life. It was a pretty.
Speaker 3: Stayed tour really set it around England. I mean there
Speaker 3: were i mean probably half the tourments for in England,
Speaker 3: and I mean Tony Jackham was the big star, but
Speaker 3: he really gone to America and just went to America.
Speaker 3: So I was, you know, in the seventies it was
Speaker 3: really I mean Bob Sheer and Jack Newton and the
Speaker 3: Bobby Cole and the I mean, they were the big
Speaker 3: stars of the the European Tour until Sevee really came
Speaker 3: on the scene in nineteen seventy five. That was his
Speaker 3: first full year and he really carried that tour from
Speaker 3: then until.
Speaker 2: You know, he lost his game really in the mid nineties.
Speaker 3: And of course the difference between then and now is
Speaker 3: that he didn't just up and leave and go and
Speaker 3: live in Florida and play golf in America when none
Speaker 3: of the leading Europeans we play in European well that
Speaker 3: they play a few torments there, but he said he
Speaker 3: played the European Tour, which was because he's big fight
Speaker 3: with Bemen was it Beeman wanted him to play fifteen
Speaker 3: tooments in America when he was committed to playing you know,
Speaker 3: fifteen or eighteen torments in Europe and he played in
Speaker 3: Australia and Japan, and I mean it was a ridiculous
Speaker 3: expectation that, well, you have to play fifteen tourments in
Speaker 3: America as well.
Speaker 2: Is so at fight he had with Beman was really
Speaker 2: crazy that you know, what they're asking him to do.
Speaker 3: But he carried that tour for he made that tour
Speaker 3: and carried it for fifteen years. So he was certainly,
Speaker 3: you know, a significant player in that sense, and I
Speaker 3: think he gave I mean, I mean, my generation had
Speaker 3: grown up. You know, every superstar and golf was American.
Speaker 3: I mean apart from Jack and really who won the
Speaker 3: Open in the US Opening the sixty nine and seventy
Speaker 3: I mean Nicholas and Watson and Miller and Weiss Golf
Speaker 3: and Trevino and suppose Gary.
Speaker 2: Player was you know the foreign superstar.
Speaker 3: Really, but I mean, I mean almost every big star
Speaker 3: and golf was American. And finally there was a player
Speaker 3: from an unusual part of the world.
Speaker 4: Who showed his generation that they too could be you know,
Speaker 4: the preserve of the top of the game wasn't solely
Speaker 4: with Americans.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's interesting. I think, like all the great
Speaker 1: American players are you know nowadays or you know, you
Speaker 1: see a different type of player and thinking about it
Speaker 1: now is like, you know, Seve probably led to a
Speaker 1: somewhat of a Spain like revival of golf. You know,
Speaker 1: you see, there are a lot of world class Spanish
Speaker 1: players now on the European tour, with Garcia, Ralpha Caberrabello,
Speaker 1: Pablo Laza Bell and then you know you got John
Speaker 1: Rahm coming up through the ranks, and you know, I
Speaker 1: have to imagine a lot of that had to do
Speaker 1: with you know, Seve's impact on the game and his popularity.
Speaker 3: Well it did, but I mean Sevi was I mean
Speaker 3: already when he came out, there was I mean kind
Speaker 3: of Czaris and Panero and Garrido who were all kind
Speaker 3: of Madrid Bays caddies. I mean, they're already good Spanish players,
Speaker 3: and I mean, I mean Sevi's brother was a good player.
Speaker 3: I'm almost a decent player in the European Tour. So
Speaker 3: you know, Seve climb Out and I all knew he.
Speaker 2: Was the big style.
Speaker 3: But I mean, spine a Way has had good players.
Speaker 3: You know, it's that Latin kind of flair for playing
Speaker 3: the game, which was shared with Devissenzo, and you know
Speaker 3: so later Edbuarda Romero and Vincentno Fernandez and Angl Cabrero,
Speaker 3: who you know, they play the game much definitely than
Speaker 3: everyone else, they don't. They play with great flair and
Speaker 3: touch and whilst you know they certainly didn't have bad methods,
Speaker 3: they certainly weren't as analytical as Australians or South Africans
Speaker 3: or Americans tend to be about golf and trying to
Speaker 3: perfect the goals, and they played in a way that
Speaker 3: reflected their character.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, the character of their country is really,
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 3: Much more easy going and let's try to analyze things
Speaker 3: to death and just go and play with passion and
Speaker 3: flair and get the ball in the hole. And I mean,
Speaker 3: Sevy was the best at it. But I mean I
Speaker 3: saw Divisenzo play when he was I mean, I say
Speaker 3: he was an old man. He was younger than I
Speaker 3: am now, but it was fifty seven when I saw
Speaker 3: him play it forfeit in nineteen eighty, and well he
Speaker 3: was still a great player. You know, was a pro
Speaker 3: in his late fifties, which was a tremendous player. And
Speaker 3: Edbroo Romero was a beautiful player, and Caberra with him,
Speaker 3: and tremendous players to watch. So you're gonna love the
Speaker 3: South American players and the Spanish players all together.
Speaker 2: Really in terms of how they played.
Speaker 1: The game, it's uh, it's interesting. So who you know?
Speaker 1: I always asked this question with architecture, but in terms
Speaker 1: of kind of European tour, like who's the best player
Speaker 1: that most Americans never heard of that was on the
Speaker 1: European Tour and like the eighties.
Speaker 3: Uh well he was, he was older then, but Neil
Speaker 3: Coles was I think. I mean Neil Coles was a
Speaker 3: tremendous player.
Speaker 2: He hated to fly. He was on that bad Ryder
Speaker 2: Cup flight that flew into Palm Springs. It was a
Speaker 2: it was a it was apparently it was a wicked
Speaker 2: flag turbulin stuff, you know.
Speaker 3: I mean he he didn't fly much after that. But
Speaker 3: Neil Carles is a fantastic players second in the open
Speaker 3: to Wiscuff Tom with Miller in seventy three.
Speaker 2: And I mean he won a lot of tourments in
Speaker 2: Europe and was a great player really so so probably
Speaker 2: Neil Coles. I mean, he was a beautiful golfer, I thought.
Speaker 1: As I mean, if you're a player on the European
Speaker 1: Tour and you don't like to fly, you're in you're
Speaker 1: kind of in a tough bind.
Speaker 2: Well you can why you can drive around Europe. I
Speaker 2: mean there's a guy whose name escapes me.
Speaker 3: I shouldn't I think, German guy who won't fly drives everywhere.
Speaker 3: So obviously you're not going to have much Black team
Speaker 3: to the tournaments this week and do baile wherever they're
Speaker 3: playing abad w. I'm not sure where they're playing this week,
Speaker 3: but you know, that's a long way to drive to Australia,
Speaker 3: but you can easily drive the.
Speaker 2: Continent now, uh huh. But but you're right.
Speaker 3: You know, if you're not prepared to get into an aeroplane,
Speaker 3: it makes it a tough profession to really take full
Speaker 3: advantage of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember there was a basket ball player a
Speaker 1: few years back, Royce White or something. He had like
Speaker 1: an extreme phobia of flying, and you know, it costs
Speaker 1: him getting drafted very highly to you know, moving back
Speaker 1: and I don't I think he's out of the league now.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like you gotta gotta be able to
Speaker 1: fly if you want to be a professional athlete these
Speaker 1: days with all the travel. So tell me, you know,
Speaker 1: with the game, and you know, you've seen the really
Speaker 1: the change with technology from you know person and to
Speaker 1: metal woods to now today where you know, just you know,
Speaker 1: the the clubs are capped, but the ball just keeps
Speaker 1: getting better, and you know, the more and more courses
Speaker 1: are becoming vulnerable and scorable, Like how do you feel
Speaker 1: about kind of what's happening with the landscape of the game,
Speaker 1: with technology and golf courses, Well, I.
Speaker 2: Think it's a disaster.
Speaker 3: I just think that, you know, every Australia doesn't have
Speaker 3: a long golf course anymore. I mean, every single golf
Speaker 3: course is in Australia is obsolete.
Speaker 2: If the measure is how Alistair.
Speaker 3: Mackenzie and Alec Russel and the great designers down here
Speaker 3: one of the golf courses to play. I mean I
Speaker 3: watched the final of the Australian Amateur on Sunday. Men
Speaker 3: Wood Lee, who's Menji Lee's brother, was in the final
Speaker 3: seventeen years old. So the argument that these guys are
Speaker 3: better athletes, I mean, here's a seventeen year old boy
Speaker 3: who played the last hole at Yariaa, which was always
Speaker 3: a short Part five in my day. Was that Pop
Speaker 3: Sheer was hitting five irons and Greg Norman was could
Speaker 3: perhaps get there with a six iron.
Speaker 2: It was a driving a four iron for me.
Speaker 3: His kid drove it in the cross bunkers and then
Speaker 3: in a nine nine out of the cross bunkers twenty
Speaker 3: yards over the green.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a part five. The sixteenth old was it.
Speaker 3: Well, they played them as pat forwards during the week,
Speaker 3: but they played off the back to you at sixteen.
Speaker 2: Driving a wedge. So every golf course is obsolete.
Speaker 3: And I can't tell me he's not a better athlete
Speaker 3: as a seventeen year old boy than Greg Norman or
Speaker 3: Sam Sneed or Jack Nicholas were as thirty year old men.
Speaker 3: So the argument that these guys are better athletes is, well,
Speaker 3: you know, partly it's I mean, sure they're fitter and stronger,
Speaker 3: but you know, there are two things that matter in
Speaker 3: terms of the R and a's job and the USA job.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean they had two jobs.
Speaker 3: One was to protect or maintain the skillet took to
Speaker 3: play the game at the top level, and one was
Speaker 3: to protect the golf courses. And they've only failed at
Speaker 3: both of them. So that every kid who plays golf
Speaker 3: now who's half decent can hit the same.
Speaker 2: Drives but thirty hours longer then Nichols and Norman and
Speaker 2: was he and sev hit And don't tell me they're
Speaker 2: more skillful.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, every decent golf course is obsolete. So
Speaker 3: you go to a place like Millfield or shinner Cock.
Speaker 3: Can you look back at where those championship tees are.
Speaker 3: It's I mean, it's laughable whether some of those teas
Speaker 3: are on Millfield, and I I mean the worst you know,
Speaker 3: for me, the best golf course in the world is
Speaker 3: the old course.
Speaker 2: It's Andrew's and.
Speaker 3: The worst aspect of playing that golf course now is
Speaker 3: almost on every single hole you make the exact same
Speaker 3: walk back into the right and walk back sixty yards
Speaker 3: to these teas that are out of bounds or on
Speaker 3: the Eden.
Speaker 2: Course or the New Course, or the out of bounds
Speaker 2: in the case of the tea on the oat hole seventeenth.
Speaker 2: So you know, it's just.
Speaker 3: Beyond dismaying that they've let the ball get so out
Speaker 3: of control, and seemingly to me they've let the titleist
Speaker 3: company whose balls I've always played with and they've always
Speaker 3: made great golfers. But you know, it seems like the
Speaker 3: Buss Titler's runs golf because as far as I can tell,
Speaker 3: they threaten lawsuits, and the RNA and US terrified of lawsuits.
Speaker 3: So here we have a manufacturer controlling, you know, the
Speaker 3: way the great golf courses of the water played.
Speaker 2: So you know, it was the job of the administration
Speaker 2: to protect those golf courses against the.
Speaker 3: Ravages of the equipment. I mean, you can't protect them
Speaker 3: against small increases. And of course they will argue on
Speaker 3: the record, not off the record, because I'll admit they've
Speaker 3: screwed it up, but on the record they say, well,
Speaker 3: they're only small increases. It's not really noticeable. Or it's
Speaker 3: like saying a three year old kid who's three feet high,
Speaker 3: it's not really noticeable that he grows into a year,
Speaker 3: but he turns into a six foot six.
Speaker 2: Man, so little little.
Speaker 3: Sure, it's you know, the largue that while the distancing
Speaker 3: increases aren't noticeable, but in the end, you watched a
Speaker 3: seventeen year old boy played the last whole Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: with a driving a wedge is like, don't tell me
Speaker 3: the ball's not going for it. I mean, you know
Speaker 3: when Greg Norman was sitting five and six times and
Speaker 3: they're okay. I mean that was considered because because back
Speaker 3: in Peter Thompson's day, it was a drive and a
Speaker 3: three wood or a four wood. And back when I
Speaker 3: Russell built that golf course, it was a they were
Speaker 3: playing with hickory shafts and it was two woods in
Speaker 3: a pitch. So they're just a fenced with the second
Speaker 3: wood shot in terms of we're driving a pitch hole,
Speaker 3: which is you know, I played with Ryan Ruffles Royal
Speaker 3: Melbourne and Ryan's the best kind of young player in
Speaker 3: Australia and we played the West Court. We played the
Speaker 3: West Course at Royal Melbourne. Pretty much every hole was
Speaker 3: a driving a wedge for him. It's one of the
Speaker 3: great golf courses in the world. And to watch, you know,
Speaker 3: eighteen year old and perhaps he's a little more than
Speaker 3: a boy, but not really in a word, end of
Speaker 3: pretty much every hole the sevennth doubles into the wind.
Speaker 2: He had three iron five irons, so probably a little
Speaker 2: longer as a four hundred and forty out four.
Speaker 3: But you know, if Mackenzie came back now, he would
Speaker 3: just go ballistic. The people whose responsive it was to
Speaker 3: protect his golf courses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. I think it's you know, these
Speaker 1: kids now that are coming up, their swings are built
Speaker 1: where they you know, they've never seen. You know, I
Speaker 1: grew up and as a freshman in high school I
Speaker 1: was hitting the ball like two hundred yards. You know,
Speaker 1: these kids hit it three hundred yards as freshmen, and
Speaker 1: their swings are built around like you know, the forgiveness
Speaker 1: of the clubs, and they they never have a bad mess.
Speaker 3: Well, the faces, you know, the face is so big,
Speaker 3: the shaft is so long and so light, and the
Speaker 3: ball goes straight because it once spins. So you know,
Speaker 3: it's all about how fast and how fast and hide
Speaker 3: you get the ball.
Speaker 2: It's all about power.
Speaker 3: So not only does it destroy the golf courses, it
Speaker 3: drives out the inventive shorter player.
Speaker 1: So if you were in charge of golf, how would
Speaker 1: you deal with kind of the problem. Would you do
Speaker 1: a rollback or would you, you know, create a different
Speaker 1: type of equipment for you know, the touring pros or
Speaker 1: high level amateurs. How would you approach it?
Speaker 3: Well, I think you have to bifurcate the ball. Of
Speaker 3: course they don't want to, but I mean we had
Speaker 3: that forever. I mean we were I mean I grew
Speaker 3: up playing the no ball. When the Americans played with
Speaker 3: the big ball, we played with the small ball. So
Speaker 3: so the game was bifurcated for the longest time, for
Speaker 3: forty or fifty years, and then we were as top
Speaker 3: level amters, chose to play the big ball because if
Speaker 3: we ever wanted to be pros, we knew we were
Speaker 3: gonna have to play with it. So for six or
Speaker 3: seven years the pro tour in Australia in the top
Speaker 3: level playing the big ball, whilst the club players continued
Speaker 3: on with a small ball until the early eighties when they,
Speaker 3: you know, the small ball was banned.
Speaker 2: So it will say.
Speaker 3: That, well you can't you know, change the ball and
Speaker 3: take this distance off the average amount player.
Speaker 2: But when they've already done that much and no one
Speaker 2: really cared, and I mean no one, because.
Speaker 3: I actually don't think that would look that much, you know,
Speaker 3: with the stroke of a pen. And you know, in
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty three or eighty four when they bound a
Speaker 3: small ball in Britain and Australia, in theory everyone that
Speaker 3: game lost twenty five yards because I went from playing
Speaker 3: at one point stateball.
Speaker 1: So do you think outside of rolling back the ball,
Speaker 1: is there anything else you could do.
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 3: I mean, the argument is always going to be that
Speaker 3: the ambutters want to play with what the pros use.
Speaker 3: But I mean I would try and restore the skillet
Speaker 3: took to be a great driver, so you make a
Speaker 3: more ball that's more difficult to drive far and straight,
Speaker 3: and you limit the size of the club and on
Speaker 3: the driver, which of course they should have.
Speaker 2: Done years ago but never did. So when the manufacturers
Speaker 2: figured out how to make a head like a frying
Speaker 2: pan and make it light and make itself didn't crack,
Speaker 2: then yeah, there was almost no limit on the side
Speaker 2: of the driver.
Speaker 3: So I would I would try and limit the size
Speaker 3: that I would understand. So really the balls the thing
Speaker 3: to change. But I mean Savvy was.
Speaker 2: An advocate of I mean, you could have on a wedge.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's never gonna happen.
Speaker 3: But I would say that every bo use the Maszuo
Speaker 3: or some sort of blade two iron or one iron,
Speaker 3: I mean at least have one in their bags. Are
Speaker 3: essentially the guys who don't want to use it. You're
Speaker 3: making a thirteen type game, that a falling type game.
Speaker 3: But I think if you have one to be a
Speaker 3: professional player something you can get a problem too. I mean,
Speaker 3: this hybrid stuff is just junk for golf, if you know,
Speaker 3: for top level pros. But that's kind of pine the
Speaker 3: sky stuff, really. But the balls are easiest and the
Speaker 3: main thing to fix. And if I was a good player,
Speaker 3: I'd be wanting to make the equipment as difficult to
Speaker 3: use as possible. And you know the real problem, well,
Speaker 3: one of the problems with the game now has been
Speaker 3: kind of the complete decimation of Korea type amate golf.
Speaker 2: There are no career.
Speaker 3: Amateur players left anymore. I mean, I mean every a
Speaker 3: certainly in Australia and Britain. It's just a bunch of
Speaker 3: kids who want to be pros. So because the equipment
Speaker 3: has given them all the same set of skills, they
Speaker 3: all look like they're really good players because the equipment
Speaker 3: makes them look.
Speaker 2: Like really good players. And some of them are, and
Speaker 2: some of them are just kind of faking it because
Speaker 2: the equipment makes them look good. So you know, what
Speaker 2: the equipment has done is throwing thousands and thousands of
Speaker 2: kids into the pile of you know, the same skill set.
Speaker 3: Really Whereas you know, when I was growing up, the
Speaker 3: guys who could really drive the ball, well, you know
Speaker 3: the guys who could drive the Ballada ball with a
Speaker 3: per Simon driver, well, I mean Nicholas and Wisdom and
Speaker 3: severy des By what people think was a great driver, Norman.
Speaker 3: I mean they had a huge white goff a huge
Speaker 3: advantage because there was such powerful, long straight drivers and
Speaker 3: you know, you either drove the ball like the guys
Speaker 3: I grew up among them, Peter Thompson growing master Halo.
Speaker 3: When you were you know, a short, relatively short, straight
Speaker 3: hitter who digged the ball up and put him to play,
Speaker 3: or you were long and crooked, or you were long
Speaker 3: and great. But now everyone's long and straight, and you know,
Speaker 3: so the skillet takes to drive the ball has been
Speaker 3: up utterly decimated by the equipment. And I would argue
Speaker 3: that hasn't done the average probate good because the ball
Speaker 3: for them, you see so many more wildly crooked shots.
Speaker 3: You know, the club you can swing so much hotter
Speaker 3: in the middle of the faces, some yasy to hit,
Speaker 3: but if it's pointing in the wrong direction, the ball
Speaker 3: goes miles off line.
Speaker 1: Now, well, something I've found just it just bothers me
Speaker 1: is the length of the driver. You know, where you
Speaker 1: look at the average length of a tour driver, it's
Speaker 1: gone up one inch over the last you know, fifteen years.
Speaker 1: And somehow club manufacturers, because you know, they've got a
Speaker 1: limit on their you know, how they can construct a
Speaker 1: golf club, they've decided to go after the average amateur
Speaker 1: player and do it by giving them more yardage by
Speaker 1: making a longer driver. But all that does is it
Speaker 1: makes it go longer and way and way worse directions.
Speaker 1: You know, if a younger driver meant longer and straighter drives,
Speaker 1: every PGA tour player would be using it, but none
Speaker 1: of them do.
Speaker 3: Was a Jimmy Walker that went back to a forty
Speaker 3: two inch driver in Hawaii or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: like length is great, but you gotta be in a
Speaker 1: fair way to score.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know what, you know, it sounds like
Speaker 3: we're a bunch of grumpy old men talking about the
Speaker 3: good old days.
Speaker 2: But but.
Speaker 1: I wish I was old that young. Yeah, I'm just grumbled.
Speaker 3: And the average amateur player, I mean they were, you know,
Speaker 3: the guys like kdy For. They didn't very many good shots,
Speaker 3: but were the first bos like kd For were twenty
Speaker 3: five handicappers. But they ort the ball pretty straight, and
Speaker 3: I mean no one hit the ball. They would mishit
Speaker 3: it a lot, but they never hit it really crooked.
Speaker 3: I mean, now you see, the average amazate can hit
Speaker 3: the ball so far off line. Now, it's amazing because
Speaker 3: the shafts are so long, and you know, the swing
Speaker 3: harder and it looks it looks like you can swing
Speaker 3: away with him unity And of course that six or
Speaker 3: you know four, three or four or five really good
Speaker 3: drives around. But whether are three of them just you
Speaker 3: don't find so anyway, that's uh, that's the equipment.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So Caddy, you caddied this year in the Olympics.
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about that experience and how
Speaker 1: you know what it was like, you know, being a
Speaker 1: part of representing a country.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure I was representing my country.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're part of the team.
Speaker 3: I guess we were kind of Well, there's a kid
Speaker 3: at a club of girl who was Maria. Came to
Speaker 3: Australia when she was eight years old, didn't play golf
Speaker 3: and she played in the Australian Open when she was twelve.
Speaker 3: I can remember watching her plays. I watched her play
Speaker 3: for holes. It's this twelve year old. You know, she
Speaker 3: wasn't a little girl. She was actually you know, she
Speaker 3: was sort of five foot five or something. But she
Speaker 3: there was this twelve year old kid playing in the
Speaker 3: Australian Open. She qualified and she missed a cut, but
Speaker 3: not by many. Then she joined the Cowboy Player Aunt
Speaker 3: about three or four years later I think, and we
Speaker 3: got to play a little bit. And she called me
Speaker 3: one night and she'd been assigned to caddy for the
Speaker 3: train Open at Victoria about twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2: She said, what should I do? I said, what I
Speaker 2: cady for you?
Speaker 3: So I started to caddy for a little bit, and
Speaker 3: you know, we did sort of three or four or
Speaker 3: five touraments a year, and then last year she had
Speaker 3: pretty lowly.
Speaker 2: She missed the top twenty five on there the.
Speaker 3: LPGA Tour School in twenty and fifteen twenty fifteen, but
Speaker 3: she she had a number that gave her sons status,
Speaker 3: which was basically much.
Speaker 2: But she was starting this train open and we did
Speaker 2: that and she finished fourteenth and she off her number
Speaker 2: and she finished fortieth there. Okadie four her there.
Speaker 3: So she reranked really well and the finished second at
Speaker 3: King's Mill and eighth in the pj CO Web out
Speaker 3: of the Australian Olympic team. So she asked me to
Speaker 3: go K four beround there, which was it was a
Speaker 3: lot of fun. It was a really cool event. It
Speaker 3: was great to be a part of. It was fun
Speaker 3: to see her play in it.
Speaker 2: It was great to Gil Hans walked around the course
Speaker 2: with us on the first practice run we did, and
Speaker 2: so that was interesting. It was anything but heard us.
Speaker 3: See you know how he thought about how we designed holes,
Speaker 3: because obviously I was, I mean, I think, I mean,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how many nineteen year old young women
Speaker 3: are that aware of the strategy of golf.
Speaker 2: It's pretty much hit the ball where you're told to
Speaker 2: hit it and go from point A to point B.
Speaker 2: But so kind of.
Speaker 3: Growing up in Melbourne and played knew there was more
Speaker 3: to golf and just see the ball straight. So you know,
Speaker 3: we had a really cool time Monday with Gill and
Speaker 3: walking around talking about the golf course and the angles
Speaker 3: and you know there's a great old George Thomas crote
Speaker 3: about So George Thomas Thomson wrote about the middle of
Speaker 3: the being.
Speaker 2: The ideal line to the whole. And you know, Sami
Speaker 2: many PGA two of course is the object is just
Speaker 2: hit the fairway. It doesn't matter where you hit it.
Speaker 2: But you know, the Pharaohs are.
Speaker 3: On line with high rough and it's not the sort
Speaker 3: of golf I enjoy much. But you know, wrong Melbourne
Speaker 3: and the Pharaoh's of sixty or seventy years wide.
Speaker 2: But yeah, to play the golf was really ruddy for me.
Speaker 3: So you know, she had a good understanding of playing
Speaker 3: for the edges and opened up the angles, and so
Speaker 3: it was interesting fun four days to play the golf
Speaker 3: where she played pretty well. She it was my she
Speaker 3: hit the rarely if ever is she hit the wrong
Speaker 3: shot and the wrong club when we got to.
Speaker 2: The thirteenth hole on Sunday, was not an unreasonable chance
Speaker 2: to go.
Speaker 3: She had to pass thirteen, four and fifteen and Bertie
Speaker 3: the last three. But Burnie the last three was very
Speaker 3: possible given the nature of those holes, and thirty it
Speaker 3: was the toughest hole, and she had a kind of
Speaker 3: a dodgy number. It was sort of between a five
Speaker 3: on and a lofted hybrid. Shoot the wrong club for
Speaker 3: letting you hit it because I kind of knew it
Speaker 3: was and I should have stopped at it, you know.
Speaker 2: I shoot over the back of the green and got
Speaker 2: horrible in the bunker and made six and that was that.
Speaker 2: But but she played well, finished thirteenth and it was
Speaker 2: a really interesting week for her. It was a good
Speaker 2: confidence boost and it was she finished up the fiftieth
Speaker 2: on the maybe started the pretty much place at all,
Speaker 2: So it was the for me, it was a.
Speaker 5: Fun Yeah, it's interesting you you talked about the architecture
Speaker 5: and you know how wits and being more about being
Speaker 5: on the correct side of the fairway as opposed to
Speaker 5: the you know, just down the middle is kind of
Speaker 5: your your belief.
Speaker 1: I think that that is so you know, lost, and
Speaker 1: I think the angles is what, you know, made so
Speaker 1: many of these you know, Golden Age courses great, and
Speaker 1: it's something that got kind of lost there in the
Speaker 1: middle of Dese. I feel like you, along with a
Speaker 1: lot of the New Age architects, are trying to bring
Speaker 1: that back.
Speaker 2: Well yeah, you know you can't have.
Speaker 3: Well you can, but it's very difficult to correct strategy
Speaker 3: if you don't have any wits. So, you know, you
Speaker 3: look at the old courses Statis, which is basically two
Speaker 3: fairways wade with bunkers in the middle, and you know
Speaker 3: the National Golf Links and sand Hills and Nebraska, you know,
Speaker 3: the great the first.
Speaker 2: Great modern course really and you look at what Mike
Speaker 2: cars has done at Bandon and out of Sand Valley.
Speaker 3: And what Gill died it Castle Stewart in Scotland, and
Speaker 3: you know some of the courses we've done here. You know,
Speaker 3: I love playing golf when you've got to work and
Speaker 3: then you must sit the ball there and if you
Speaker 3: don't you get this, you get six inch ruff on
Speaker 3: the side of the fairway and six inch roff around
Speaker 3: the greens.
Speaker 2: That's what you get.
Speaker 3: So as Seve said, you know, it's very and he's
Speaker 3: finished way, very mechanic type golf, and it is, you know,
Speaker 3: it's why Sev.
Speaker 2: He was He was the only man who.
Speaker 3: Ever won it St Andrews Augusta and Roal Melbourne, and
Speaker 3: no surprise given that you know it was Mackenzie's over
Speaker 3: course and arguably his certainly probably two of his best
Speaker 3: three courses long with Cyperuspoint and perhaps Crystal Downs. But
Speaker 3: here was a you read the spirit of Andrews and.
Speaker 2: He loved it.
Speaker 3: Walla Hagen played golf and here, fifty or sixty years
Speaker 3: later it was, you know, Walla Hagen reincarnated in SEVEI Ballisterio.
Speaker 3: So they played golf with flair and carefree abandon but
Speaker 3: you had to give them space to play, and if
Speaker 3: you didn't, you kind of blunted their skills. And sure
Speaker 3: you could criticize Savvy for not being you're not having
Speaker 3: the game to win the US Open. But and that's
Speaker 3: fine because that was the preserve of something like Hale Owen,
Speaker 3: who played the perfect US Open game. And that's the
Speaker 3: great thing about golf is you can have a golf
Speaker 3: course and a championship that's set up to suit a
Speaker 3: Halo or a Ben Hogan or a jack Net because
Speaker 3: but you can also have championship set up to suit
Speaker 3: someone like ballisteros or Hagen who.
Speaker 2: Needed more space. Once you gave him that it was. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So the great thing about golf is that, you know,
Speaker 3: different golf courses show off different skill sets and again, hey, equipment,
Speaker 3: that's what it's been, I'm sure, which pretty full one
Speaker 3: guy Simeline.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the ball and you can't you know, usually
Speaker 2: aful player. Yeah, so the game is actually changed in
Speaker 2: the last twenty years.
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, I I completely agree. It's you know, the
Speaker 1: kind of art of working the ball and different ways
Speaker 1: of getting it done or diminishing every every year. So
Speaker 1: with with your design firm that you guys started, So
Speaker 1: it's O C C M for short, it's you, Jeff Ogov,
Speaker 1: Mike Cocking and Ashley Mead tell us a little bit
Speaker 1: about how you guys got together and started. Was it
Speaker 1: kind of just like minds and you know how it
Speaker 1: got started? And you know a little bit about this company, Well, I.
Speaker 2: Was like mine's well I started off, I started off
Speaker 2: a business.
Speaker 3: Well I didn't start off to two of my partners
Speaker 3: in the original business, which was Michael Plainton Golf Designed
Speaker 3: with two superintendents in Melbourne, came to me and asked
Speaker 3: me if I was interested in starting off a business
Speaker 3: and design in nineteen ninety five, and we did that
Speaker 3: and we employed Michael and Ashley in two thousand, I
Speaker 3: think the two thousand and one pretty much around the
Speaker 3: same time. So that business survived until it didn't survive
Speaker 3: anymore in twenty ten, when.
Speaker 2: You know, it was a sign of the times. It
Speaker 2: was the market really telling us that you did run
Speaker 2: your bit your business more. Yeah, we sort of fifteen
Speaker 2: years really and we won year where well, we can't
Speaker 2: pay the wages anymore, so we did what Well, the
Speaker 2: business went the way of the business. So I called
Speaker 2: Jeff and said, you know, this is a situation.
Speaker 3: We need some money, and he didn't even think about
Speaker 3: it for well he thought about it for a second,
Speaker 3: I think, and said, I mean that's great.
Speaker 2: You know. So Jeff came on board. He plant us
Speaker 2: some money, he.
Speaker 3: Said, go start an office and let's keep going. So
Speaker 3: so so we kind of started in twenty ten and
Speaker 3: we picked up one really good job almost immediately the
Speaker 3: Sydney which was a big redo which we're about to
Speaker 3: we're about to open the stage three in about two months,
Speaker 3: which is we've got three holes to do it in
Speaker 3: stage four. So it was so we're opening sort of
Speaker 3: five holes in a month. So we got that job
Speaker 3: and we sort of bombing along and got a thing more.
Speaker 3: You know, we beat Greg Norman to get a big
Speaker 3: commission to beat.
Speaker 2: H to read a broad camp, which is the best
Speaker 2: it's inland course in Australia. So that was a nice
Speaker 2: job to get. You know, we've done pretty well since.
Speaker 2: Really I think we've done some good work with I
Speaker 2: mean really Pine. If I think about our business, I
Speaker 2: mean that would underrate the tremendous talents of Mark and
Speaker 2: Ashley who were I mean Jeff one day a few
Speaker 2: years ago came to me and said, screwing these guys.
Speaker 2: So yeah, you look at every.
Speaker 3: Really good design business around the world now and whether
Speaker 3: it's Skill Hands or Tom Dak or Bill Corn Ben Crunchaw,
Speaker 3: but there are really talented people who work for those
Speaker 3: guys who who make them and.
Speaker 2: Us all look good.
Speaker 3: So it'll be an incredibly simplistic thing to look at
Speaker 3: the names of the people at the top of the
Speaker 3: ladderhead and think they were the ones who were doing
Speaker 3: all the work and they were the ones that were.
Speaker 2: Really responsible for the work, because it goes much deeper
Speaker 2: than that. Yeah, you know, if you spoke to Bill Coy,
Speaker 2: he would.
Speaker 3: Tell you all the guys who make him look really good,
Speaker 3: and he's you know, I think you can make an
Speaker 3: argument that Bill is one of the great designers of
Speaker 3: all time, you know, if not the greatest.
Speaker 2: You know, I think at this point if you were
Speaker 2: going to.
Speaker 3: Put one guy up against Kenzie and telling Harson Roster
Speaker 3: and then it would be Bill core because he's a
Speaker 3: you know, look at the court the causes that he
Speaker 3: and Ben have done that they've really transformed the modern game,
Speaker 3: I think, and Santells was a breakthrough golf course.
Speaker 2: It showed everyone what to do.
Speaker 3: And you know, any modern arctor who hasn't studied the Santeless,
Speaker 3: you know, their educations to fish in one sense, and
Speaker 3: you know, I was lucky enough to pay Sam Valley,
Speaker 3: which is the new course I've just done out in Wisconsin.
Speaker 3: And you know, in some ways I was talking to
Speaker 3: Mike about Mirke Cocking about today, was you know, in
Speaker 3: some ways that's when you talk about con cruential courses.
Speaker 3: It's you could you could say, well, they're all kind
Speaker 3: of the same, but in a sense they are, but yeah,
Speaker 3: they're all the same.
Speaker 2: They're just all great and yeah you can recognize that
Speaker 2: look and the type of golf they like and the
Speaker 2: type of golf they build. You know, if you were
Speaker 2: going to be critical of them, which I'm certainly not,
Speaker 2: you could say, well you've seen one, you've seen a
Speaker 2: few of them, but every single course you go to, well,
Speaker 2: well you can see that, Bill, I've done it. But
Speaker 2: they're all.
Speaker 3: Tremendous golf courses. And you can say the same about
Speaker 3: Alison McKenzie. Really, I mean Augusta and people talk about,
Speaker 3: you know, there's this stupid line in Australia that such
Speaker 3: and such a golf course as Australia's Augusta, And it
Speaker 3: used to be raw because because it was Hellion, it
Speaker 3: had pine trees and it was There's a course in
Speaker 3: northern New South Wales that people called Australia's Augusta because
Speaker 3: it's got it's got green grass on it.
Speaker 2: I think, but.
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, you know, as Tom Doug said,
Speaker 3: Gus Royal Melbourne is the course Augusta wants to be,
Speaker 3: So Augusta is almost America's rural Melbourns.
Speaker 2: That's the way I kind of look at it. But
Speaker 2: you know, the lessons of.
Speaker 3: Golfers only got golf design a timeless. Really, I mean
Speaker 3: you look at Royal Melbourne or Gusta and Standrews and
Speaker 3: I think, people, you know, the guys who are doing
Speaker 3: really good work now look look at those courses and
Speaker 3: study them and understand them and try and replicate the
Speaker 3: things that make those courses great and the great modern
Speaker 3: courses of throwbacks.
Speaker 2: To that era.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, I think I I echo your thoughts about
Speaker 1: Corn Crenshaw. You know, sand Valley was unbelievable. That's a
Speaker 1: great new golf course. And then I just got done
Speaker 1: playing stream Song Red and I thought that was fantastic.
Speaker 1: I mean the way they I just love the way
Speaker 1: they are able to blend playability. And then you know,
Speaker 1: I noticed like all the you know, it's all about angles,
Speaker 1: and you know, being the ideal line for somebody that's
Speaker 1: looking to score is always along. You know, there's a
Speaker 1: risk to taking that line and you can always sail
Speaker 1: out right, but then you have just usually a very
Speaker 1: very difficult shot to get back and you know, to
Speaker 1: have a birdie chance. And I just it's amazing when
Speaker 1: you start to play them and you start to realize, like,
Speaker 1: you know, the ideal line on this hole is a
Speaker 1: you know, four hundred and eighty yard Part four is
Speaker 1: right hugging a you know, it's hugging the left side
Speaker 1: of the fairway where there's a thirty foot bunker, you know,
Speaker 1: and sure you've got sixty yards the bail out right,
Speaker 1: but then you you've got it just an awful angle
Speaker 1: into a green that slopes away and it's just brilliant.
Speaker 1: It's uh, you know, it's it's it's it's special. You
Speaker 1: know when you can start to see that, yeah, and it's.
Speaker 2: Not I would be the first tom. I mean, this
Speaker 2: is not rocket science. This stuff a moment.
Speaker 3: It's just replicating the sentiment color n All the road
Speaker 3: holes and Andrews or Yeah, it's not you know, it's
Speaker 3: not that they've discovered anything new.
Speaker 2: It's just you know, they put it.
Speaker 3: Beautifully on the ground, and you know, they choose projects
Speaker 3: where the land is great that they just build great
Speaker 3: golf and it's not anything genius or anything new. It's
Speaker 3: just you know, it's just beautiful golf they building and
Speaker 3: it's great fun to play in. Yeah, I mean, Fry's
Speaker 3: Heads a tremendous golf of course. I've payed there a
Speaker 3: couple of times, and it's a it's a beautiful place
Speaker 3: to play golf. And I wonder whether they really care about,
Speaker 3: you know, the modern young player, who's.
Speaker 2: The both thrown twenty yards. I mean, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: I suspeak.
Speaker 3: Bill Will throws hands up and say, well, I glad
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to design golf course with those guys,
Speaker 3: because you know, as Jeff said many times, he said,
Speaker 3: why would you want to design a course for us?
Speaker 2: Becaus no one will want to play it? That's true.
Speaker 2: Who wants to play a golfer? Of course? That's going
Speaker 2: to test those guys because.
Speaker 3: No one else can play it, and who wants to
Speaker 3: play a golf course, whether I have Tea's back there
Speaker 3: that are eighty yards back and everything's out of scale
Speaker 3: and nothing seems quite right because of these you know,
Speaker 3: where do we play from them? I mean, it's just,
Speaker 3: you know, again, it goes back to the disaster of
Speaker 3: the ball and what it's done to the game.
Speaker 2: And you know, I kind of like the fact that
Speaker 2: Mike Kaiser and Bill and Ben and you know, Gil
Speaker 2: don't really care about how.
Speaker 3: You know, the the young modern strong player plays the
Speaker 3: game because it's not you know, they're not designing courses
Speaker 3: for those, because they're designing fun courses for the rest
Speaker 3: of people to play golf. But but I wasn't the
Speaker 3: game would be more fun for the young kids if
Speaker 3: they could play the golf course is much more like
Speaker 3: the way.
Speaker 2: We played them, but they can't because you got ready
Speaker 2: straining editor again, man, it was a it was a
Speaker 2: pitch and put final, really, so.
Speaker 1: We got we got a ton of Twitter questions and
Speaker 1: I definitely want to get to them because you know,
Speaker 1: we just got a lot of great ones here, so
Speaker 1: uh and a lot of them are based around architecture,
Speaker 1: So I think it'd be good to dive in here
Speaker 1: and it can. Some of them are on your projects.
Speaker 1: So from Tony dear, what's the latest on seven Mile
Speaker 1: Beach and what's the schedule at Shady Oaks?
Speaker 3: Well, seven mops is, of course in Hobo we're talking about.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's one of those things that you
Speaker 3: just kind of sit and wait and you hope that
Speaker 3: the guys going to do what's going to do it,
Speaker 3: And I think we're all pretty hopefully is so we're
Speaker 3: sitting and waiting and waiting for the client to say, yeah,
Speaker 3: let's go and do it. So that's where that one's
Speaker 3: At Shady Oaks, we're doing the Hogan's car little practice course,
Speaker 3: little nine hole course in the middle of the golf course.
Speaker 2: Where Hogan used to go and practice, which was a
Speaker 2: really rudimentary part three course with one short Part four
Speaker 2: and just a little basic ground greens with shapeless bumpers,
Speaker 2: and so we did three holes last year.
Speaker 3: As we speak, we're shaping the the six remaining holes.
Speaker 3: So it's kind of a there with some really cool
Speaker 3: I mean I mean nothing sort of flashy bunkers, some
Speaker 3: well shaped.
Speaker 2: Bunkers and cool greens, some with the idea that it's
Speaker 2: still a nine hole Part three course.
Speaker 3: But you can really go out and throw a bag
Speaker 3: of balls down anywhere and play great shots to any green.
Speaker 3: And you can play great holes from wherever you choose
Speaker 3: to play them from. So the knife was a kind
Speaker 3: of a path three across the across the kind of
Speaker 3: a gouged out, sort of creaky baranca thing in front
Speaker 3: of the green. But we're building a tea on the
Speaker 3: other side of the fourth fairway to create what is
Speaker 3: a really cool three and a sixty yard part four
Speaker 3: with a great you know, perfectly placed for a bank
Speaker 3: and a really cool hold of place. And so when
Speaker 3: the course is not busy, you know, if you want
Speaker 3: to go out and practice your drives or go play
Speaker 3: a hole in a really cool hole, you can do that.
Speaker 3: So the idea is to have the golf limited only
Speaker 3: by your imagination. Really, so throw balls down anywhere and
Speaker 3: heat shots to any green. And plus it's the course
Speaker 3: where you could take.
Speaker 2: Any six or seven or eight year old kid and
Speaker 2: teach them how to play golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know you can.
Speaker 3: There's no reason why you couldn't learn to be a
Speaker 3: tour class player playing only those nine holes. But because
Speaker 3: there will be every shot you can imagine to play.
Speaker 3: I think that a parts from playing shots out of
Speaker 3: long grass, which there'll be none of that, so you
Speaker 3: might have to learn how to play out of long
Speaker 3: grass by going somewhere else. But but you know, it's
Speaker 3: a it's a it's a really cool place to practice.
Speaker 3: It in a cool place to play. And then they
Speaker 3: close the main course to rebuild it in two thousand
Speaker 3: and I think nineteen is the plans. So they would
Speaker 3: just shut the main course for a year and we'll
Speaker 3: rebuild it.
Speaker 1: That's cool.
Speaker 2: So it's a you know, it's a cool place to work.
Speaker 3: I mean Ben Hogan died, he left, he left every
Speaker 3: club he had to the club pro there, Mike right.
Speaker 3: I mean there are nine hundred clubs lying around that
Speaker 3: well not lying around that golf cup in in.
Speaker 2: Racks and sitting around the pro shop. And it's such an.
Speaker 3: Amazing place to go really and just look around at
Speaker 3: the history of that place is incredible.
Speaker 2: So it's a it's a fun place to work in.
Speaker 3: Bruce Devian's a member there who was one of my
Speaker 3: you along with Peter Thompson, he was the you know,
Speaker 3: they were my two heroes when when I was.
Speaker 2: A twelve year old kid.
Speaker 3: I mean you would go and watch they were the
Speaker 3: two guys to watch in Australia play golf and definitely
Speaker 3: would come out and play in Australia every year. And
Speaker 3: I watched him play a lot of golf and I
Speaker 3: played with him when I was an amateur. And the
Speaker 3: Austrain Open ten years after I first watched him play
Speaker 3: in this Train Open at Kingston Heathen, So you know,
Speaker 3: it's kind of cool to go back there and meet
Speaker 3: him as a I want to say, he's an old man.
Speaker 3: He's probably eighty years old, but he looks tremendous for
Speaker 3: his age. And you know, it's a funny journey through
Speaker 3: life that you've kind of come across someone who it
Speaker 3: was your boyhood hero really and here he is a
Speaker 3: remember the golf cup that you're going to dig up
Speaker 3: and rebuild. So in a sense it's fun and in
Speaker 3: a sense it's a pretty big responsibility not to mess
Speaker 3: it up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's so cool. I love the concept
Speaker 1: with the nine hole course. I think that is exactly
Speaker 1: what golf should be. I was talking to somebody who
Speaker 1: runs a first D program and I was saying, how
Speaker 1: you know their facilities should just be places with wall
Speaker 1: to wall fairways and a few greens bunkers and just
Speaker 1: let the kids learn how to get the ball in
Speaker 1: the hole and tee it up wherever they want and
Speaker 1: play you know, golf that way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's really the dream practice fell I mean,
Speaker 3: Susan member there and you know we from the seventh
Speaker 3: t You can hit straight so a seven nine shot,
Speaker 3: but you can you can stay on that tee and
Speaker 3: hit a long drawer into the second green and a
Speaker 3: long fade into the third green. One hundred and seventy
Speaker 3: or eighty yarch shots and ninety yuch shots, so you
Speaker 3: can stand there for hours and practice, you know, the
Speaker 3: three basic shots in golf, the straight shot, the drawer shut,
Speaker 3: and the fade shot. And yeah, you know you're playing
Speaker 3: shots in the beautiful grains.
Speaker 2: It's a beautiful environment and a tree.
Speaker 3: As I said, there's no reason why, you know, a
Speaker 3: kid couldn't learn to be a scratch player just playing
Speaker 3: that nine golf course because they'll be every shot they want.
Speaker 1: That's cool. So a question from Nick Mackie, what's the
Speaker 1: trend in modern design you'd like to see it go away?
Speaker 1: And what's your favorite course in Austria and as outside
Speaker 1: of Melbourne, So I assume that's Australia, right.
Speaker 3: The trend in modern design you'd like to see you
Speaker 3: go away, Well, I'm huge on the on modern design.
Speaker 3: I think there's you could argue that Sint Sandels has
Speaker 3: been the most productive period of golf courses on ever,
Speaker 3: perhaps even better than the Golden Age from what nineteen
Speaker 3: thirteen to nine thirty augusta really, so you know, certainly
Speaker 3: I think it rivals it.
Speaker 2: So I'm huge on the the quality of modern design.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that in terms of modern television golf,
Speaker 2: the curse of long grass. I just I don't think
Speaker 2: that golf is best played out out of long grass.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's what to a prose want because they
Speaker 2: want predictability of punishment.
Speaker 3: They want to know that if someone is the ball
Speaker 3: off line, they get the same punishment they do for
Speaker 3: the same shot. And you know, I mean, golf's much
Speaker 3: more fun when the punishment is random. And dealing with
Speaker 3: the unfairness of golf or the lucky break or the
Speaker 3: good the good or the bad break is I mean,
Speaker 3: that's the whole mental challenge of the game is So
Speaker 3: you know, I think that pro golfers sanitized the game
Speaker 3: down to the point where you know, it's really a
Speaker 3: test of execution as opposed to a test of thought
Speaker 3: and executions.
Speaker 2: So modern televised golf.
Speaker 3: You know, if I was going to change that, I
Speaker 3: would change that the emphasis on fanness and the use
Speaker 3: of long graster, but to create an equity of punishment,
Speaker 3: because I don't think the best courses do that.
Speaker 2: I think golf is much more random than that.
Speaker 3: My favorite course in Australia outside of Melbourne, well probably
Speaker 3: I'm in the course of Bamburgle, the Bill Cause course
Speaker 3: of Lost Farm, and the course we.
Speaker 2: Did with Tom Doker. Of course I've got a great
Speaker 2: fan affection four. Yeah, the courses outside of tricky.
Speaker 3: That's a tricky question for me because we're actually we've
Speaker 3: been lucky enough to work in the best course in Perth,
Speaker 3: the best course in Brisbane.
Speaker 2: And one of the best two or three courses in Sydney.
Speaker 2: So it's difficult to answer that question with that nominally
Speaker 2: one of our own courses. But yeah, let me pick
Speaker 2: a course in New Zealand apart from parap around Beach,
Speaker 2: which is a course.
Speaker 3: I like Russell did there's a really cool course called
Speaker 3: Arrowtown in Queenstown. Now Queenstown has become a bit of
Speaker 3: a center of high end, expensive golf. I think the
Speaker 3: Jack's Point and the Hills are probably green fees somewhere
Speaker 3: between two three or four hundred. I think the Hills
Speaker 3: is five hundred dollars, but Jack's Point might be two hundred.
Speaker 3: But there's a really cool little course called Arrowtown which
Speaker 3: is right down the road from the Hills, which is
Speaker 3: about forty bucks a round, and it's a tremendous little course.
Speaker 3: So anyone who goes to the South Island of New
Speaker 3: Zealand got of Arrowtown. It's one of the most unique
Speaker 3: golf courses in the world. So if I was to
Speaker 3: pick a favorite golf course outside of Melbourne in Australia,
Speaker 3: let me pick Arrowtown in New Zealand, which is kind
Speaker 3: of cheating. But one who happens to go to Queenstown
Speaker 3: do not miss playing an Arrowtown because you can get
Speaker 3: you can get ten pounds ten rounds for the price
Speaker 3: of one, and I promise you you'll have ten times
Speaker 3: more fun.
Speaker 2: And it's a really you know, some much a word
Speaker 2: overused word unique, but it's a truly unique golf course
Speaker 2: in the you know, it's a course that everyone should see.
Speaker 1: That's that's awesome.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: It's a great value. It's finding those gems are are
Speaker 1: the most fun. You know, playing the best courses of
Speaker 1: the are great, but when you find like a really great,
Speaker 1: little unique gem that nobody knows about, that's really great.
Speaker 1: Is the I think that's the most fun about discovery
Speaker 1: golf courses. Let's go with uh, which course would you
Speaker 1: most like to renovate or restore.
Speaker 2: In Australia, anywhere, anywhere? Anywhere? Well, let me that's another
Speaker 2: interesting question.
Speaker 3: If someone had asked me that question, Well, people did
Speaker 3: that asked me that question often, and always the answer
Speaker 3: was rayal camera. So normally my answer would be rayal camera,
Speaker 3: except that we did get the chance to do that
Speaker 3: and we opened it.
Speaker 2: Jeff and I opened it the Monday of aus Train
Speaker 2: open this year, So that was always my stock answer,
Speaker 2: but we actually got to do that once. So it's
Speaker 2: a let me come back to that one.
Speaker 3: I'll think about it over the next five minutes and
Speaker 3: come back with a better answer than Because you know,
Speaker 3: all the all of the great courses in Britain that
Speaker 3: I really loved. There wasn't one that you ever went
Speaker 3: to and thought, wow, this would be a great course
Speaker 3: if you could only fix it. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: there were many examples in Australia of courses that I
Speaker 3: thought it would be a really good course if you
Speaker 3: could fix it, And we've been lucky enough to have
Speaker 3: the chance to fix a few of them. But not
Speaker 3: every member would say that, but you know I would
Speaker 3: use that fix adjective.
Speaker 2: But yeah, you go to Britain and you see.
Speaker 3: You have many great golf courses are in England and
Speaker 3: I think you know, I never crossed that. I never
Speaker 3: came across the course there where well perhaps one went
Speaker 3: Worth let me throw and Wentworth in there because wow
Speaker 3: that was a you know, Harry Cult course that.
Speaker 2: Got derailed. Yes, so we're not going to get the
Speaker 2: job that went with. But you know, I think if
Speaker 2: someone could for one of.
Speaker 3: Use for a better clich they make Wentworth great again,
Speaker 3: that would be a pretty cool.
Speaker 2: Job to do for someone. So someone's I'm not who's
Speaker 2: going to.
Speaker 3: Do that, but went with but would be in terms
Speaker 3: of English golf courses, that would be right off the
Speaker 3: top of the list.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you know, players don't even like playing there.
Speaker 1: It seems like. So here's a here's an interesting question
Speaker 1: from Chris. Why is it? And I know he goes
Speaker 1: down to Australia almost every year. Why is it that
Speaker 1: nowhere else can seem to replicate the Australian sand bunk
Speaker 1: belt bunkering and for those that don't know are familiar
Speaker 1: with it green, he says, greens bleeding right into the
Speaker 1: bunkers without fringe, and the faces of the bunkers are
Speaker 1: very hard.
Speaker 2: Well, you can replicate that. I think the taking of
Speaker 2: the very edges of the greens to the bunkers. I mean,
Speaker 2: certainly in loss of places you can do that, not everywhere.
Speaker 3: But the thing about SAMD bealt bunk I mean, I
Speaker 3: think it's a unique combination of the type of the
Speaker 3: sand and the soil that build out of it, and
Speaker 3: how the coach grass hold the lips together. But yeah,
Speaker 3: my answer to that question will be I don't think
Speaker 3: you want to. And I've seen people try and replicate
Speaker 3: SAMD belt bunkers in other places and it doesn't really work.
Speaker 3: I think Gil got really costin Rio and did a
Speaker 3: great job built beautiful bunkers, and that I know, he
Speaker 3: based a look at those bunkers, he based them on
Speaker 3: the Sandbelt bunkers, but he didn't try and you know,
Speaker 3: exactly replicate them, because I think attempts at trying to
Speaker 3: replicate that look, I mean, they all fail. You know,
Speaker 3: they just don't work very well. So I'm kind of
Speaker 3: a supporter of leaving Sampa bunkers to Melbourne and not
Speaker 3: trying to replicate that look because I think, you know,
Speaker 3: they really work well in Melbourne, don't work that well
Speaker 3: anywhere else, and perhaps you can kind of I mean,
Speaker 3: people try and build them and try and get that look,
Speaker 3: but it's never quite the same.
Speaker 2: So so I think that.
Speaker 3: You know, we don't try and replicate it anywhere else
Speaker 3: but in Melbourne, so we're pretty good at doing them,
Speaker 3: I think, so for other people to try and replicate
Speaker 3: them as not a great idea because it's very difficult
Speaker 3: to do and it never really works. Yeah, so you know,
Speaker 3: you know, I think you can replicate the principles of them,
Speaker 3: but trying to replicate the exact look doesn't really work.
Speaker 3: But one thing that's really you know works, I mean
Speaker 3: the Metropolitan right plays people marvel it the fact there
Speaker 3: is no no I mean literally no fringe at all,
Speaker 3: and where we rebuilding the.
Speaker 2: Two causes of peninsula now and you know, the edges
Speaker 2: of the greens.
Speaker 3: Go right to the very edge of the buckers and
Speaker 3: it makes it, you know, it makes it. It's a
Speaker 3: really cool feature and it works really well. But you
Speaker 3: don't see it anywhere else in the world really, and
Speaker 3: it's where it's possible to do it. It's really worth
Speaker 3: trying to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's imagine a lot of the soil. It's so
Speaker 1: much goes into that. So let's let's do some kind
Speaker 1: of rapid fire questions that are parts of all these
Speaker 1: questions we've got here. So how do you like the
Speaker 1: template hors.
Speaker 3: H Well, I think every hole is a copy of something,
Speaker 3: you know, and if you're finding a really unique form
Speaker 3: of land.
Speaker 2: I mean I enjoyed, you know, the National Golf things.
Speaker 3: I suppose with the first template golf course, you know,
Speaker 3: with all those holes that McDonald went and copied from Britain's.
Speaker 3: So I think they work really well. You know, you know,
Speaker 3: if you do them well that they're tremendous to play.
Speaker 3: So you know the Queen is Dental dog Lang left
Speaker 3: hole in Australia is the seven enth at Royal Melbourne
Speaker 3: with the bunker on the inside corner and you know
Speaker 3: the big of the drive and you know the big
Speaker 3: barker coming across the front right of the green and
Speaker 3: the green where every every yard you drive away from
Speaker 3: the hazard on the on the left, you know a
Speaker 3: yard heart of the second shot and that.
Speaker 2: Hole is replicated all over Melbourne. The fifteenth of Mertropolitan,
Speaker 2: the second at Spring Valley.
Speaker 3: There are a whole bunch of holes in Melbourne, the
Speaker 3: replicas of the sevenenth at Royal Melbourne. So you know,
Speaker 3: I think if you're designing, I mean we're always thinking
Speaker 3: of holes we've played before and holes we like and
Speaker 3: holes that work.
Speaker 2: And yeah, so I think in terms of what we
Speaker 2: do and what other.
Speaker 3: Designers do, I think they're always replicating the principles of
Speaker 3: the great holes. So you know the road holds Andrews
Speaker 3: is you know, it's it's a dog into the right
Speaker 3: really with the bunk on the front left of the green.
Speaker 3: But you know it's really not much different from the
Speaker 3: you know to flip of the segment, well the segment
Speaker 3: that rule was the flip of the road hole. Really,
Speaker 3: you know, again it's driver it down the boundary line
Speaker 3: and every yard left of the boundary line you go
Speaker 3: a yard more problematic for second shots. So you know,
Speaker 3: it goes back to what we were talking about before
Speaker 3: about there being nothing new and golf courses on really
Speaker 3: And I played of course this morning at portsy which
Speaker 3: is a really fun course out of Melbourne with some
Speaker 3: incredibly unique landforms and holes you won't see see anywhere else.
Speaker 3: But in the end, if you've got a standard ish
Speaker 3: sort of piece of land, then you're always going to
Speaker 3: replicate the principles of the great holes. So don't play
Speaker 3: holes work pretty well really.
Speaker 1: For me, I agree. I mean it's you get in
Speaker 1: trouble when you try and reinvent the wheel, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah you do.
Speaker 1: So what who would you say is the most underappreciated architect.
Speaker 3: While in Australia, like Russell was, who was Australian Open champion.
Speaker 3: He was a wealthy kind of grazier really and he
Speaker 3: worked in politics a little bit, but he was he
Speaker 3: was Mackenzie's partner down in Australia. He did the East
Speaker 3: Course at real moment yarra yarra, like carrying up and
Speaker 3: power param in New Zealand's so he didn't do many
Speaker 3: golf courses. He was really a part time architect in
Speaker 3: a sense. But here's some tremendous work down here. So
Speaker 3: you know, Russell was great in this part of the world.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not sure if Tom Simpson is underrated,
Speaker 3: but I mean more Fontaine is. You know, it would
Speaker 3: be one of my top five or ten days out
Speaker 3: playing golf in the world. It's an incredible golf course
Speaker 3: that Simpson did. So Simpson's perhaps is you know, somebody
Speaker 3: who doesn't get to credit for the greatness of his work.
Speaker 3: But you know, I always love playing his courses.
Speaker 1: I heard there's a new book out about Simpson that's
Speaker 1: really good.
Speaker 2: I haven't Yeah there is, Yeah, it's good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What of the courses you've designed, which are the most
Speaker 1: which are you most proud of? And that's from als Or.
Speaker 3: Well, we did Bamboogo with Tom and Tom Doak, and
Speaker 3: I think, you know, that's been a pretty successful development
Speaker 3: and fun course to play.
Speaker 2: But the course we've done on our own, that's I mean,
Speaker 2: mostly our work's been read on. We've done a couple.
Speaker 3: I mean rand Feller was a new golf course and
Speaker 3: Royal Queensland was basically a new golf course. He lost
Speaker 3: six holes and we basically rebuilt the entire golf course
Speaker 3: on the original piece of land. But you know, it's
Speaker 3: easy to just to sort of alert to the last
Speaker 3: job you did. But I thought we did a great
Speaker 3: job at Royal Canberra. I think that was it was
Speaker 3: a very pretty place to play golf. It was a
Speaker 3: nice environment, the course was in good condition. But Inau
Speaker 3: I never thought it was much of a golf course.
Speaker 3: It was once rated fifth in Australia, and I think
Speaker 3: it had kind of slid down the rankings to about
Speaker 3: where it should have been, which was about fifty or sixty.
Speaker 2: And a friend of mine, who is a young kid
Speaker 2: but who lived he spent six Snat's University doing out
Speaker 2: of his engineering degree over there golf course.
Speaker 3: Now he's thought about golf course of line and he
Speaker 3: played He played Rol Camber the other day and he
Speaker 3: rang up.
Speaker 2: Driving out of the game and said, wow, it's really good.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's always nice to get the opinion
Speaker 3: of someone who's sent it for the first time and
Speaker 3: who actually got it. And you know, I think we
Speaker 3: did a pretty good job. There's so I would say,
Speaker 3: you know, the worker. I think World Camberra was a
Speaker 3: really good job and turned out really well.
Speaker 1: That's cool. It's always nice. I'm sure to hear praise
Speaker 1: from somebody that's got a good eye for golf courses. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: last question I really appreciate all the time. If you
Speaker 1: had five courses that you could play the rest of
Speaker 1: your life, and you know, obviously location and the assume
Speaker 1: all fiver in your backyard, what five would they be?
Speaker 2: Five? Of course, more Fontaine I would play, I would
Speaker 2: play Woking, I would play m I would play sand Hills,
Speaker 2: I would play the National Golf Links, and I would
Speaker 2: play Royal Melbourne. How is that for fun? I mean,
Speaker 2: that's kind of the unanswerable question. But you try and
Speaker 2: create as much vari Well, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 3: Because I leave out the old courses, and I can't
Speaker 3: leave out the old courses. So give me six and
Speaker 3: the old course will be number one. But you know,
Speaker 3: I love playing golf at moll Fontaine because I love it.
Speaker 3: It's the most beautiful clubhouse in the world. And we
Speaker 3: have a drink in Australia which I never which I
Speaker 3: haven't had for years, orange juice and lemonade, and I
Speaker 3: was a drinker. I had a lot when I was
Speaker 3: a kid, and I played with Billy Lomia, great friend
Speaker 3: mine who played Europe in two. A few years we
Speaker 3: went to more Fontana.
Speaker 2: It was a hot day and for some reason we
Speaker 2: went to this end of the bar and I said,
Speaker 2: orange and lemonade. The French lady who just to be
Speaker 2: behind the bar, rich down under the bar, pull out
Speaker 2: and Orange cut it in half hands, squeezed it and
Speaker 2: poured it with lemonade. And it's like the couple does that.
Speaker 3: That's gonna be the best place in the world to
Speaker 3: play golf. So so more Fontaine the Old Course. I mean,
Speaker 3: I'll probably give you a different answer that, but more
Speaker 3: Fontaine the Old Course working because it's something I started,
Speaker 3: cool little golf course.
Speaker 2: It's great fun sandals because it's the great modern course,
Speaker 2: the national golf things, because it was the first great
Speaker 2: course in America.
Speaker 3: And I can't remember the last one because i've you know,
Speaker 3: because it was where I you know, I watched all
Speaker 3: the great players play there. I played a lot of
Speaker 3: tourments there.
Speaker 2: I'm still you know, it's the one course that I
Speaker 2: played there last week and it's the one course I
Speaker 2: I can play after forty five years is too one.
Speaker 2: I'm in the golf course and I'm coming. I'm coming
Speaker 2: over the fact that it's in my backyard. Really yeah,
Speaker 2: And it's literally in Jeff Auguby's backyard.
Speaker 3: If you hit a long hook off the fourteenth tee
Speaker 3: on the west coast, you land in Jeff Augulby's house.
Speaker 2: So he you know, he's the luckiest gone the Willie.
Speaker 3: I mean he literally jumps the back fence and plays
Speaker 3: the beck pettic at roll Melvine.
Speaker 2: So there are not many cooler places to live in that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously, it's uh, I'm guessing you're still learning little
Speaker 1: things about the course every round around. It's uh, that's
Speaker 1: usually the sign of a great course, right.
Speaker 2: It is it is?
Speaker 1: It's all right, Well, you know, I want to get
Speaker 1: you out here. I know it's probably midnight there now,
Speaker 1: and uh, I really appreciate the time. A great guest,
Speaker 1: and we'll have to have you on again. I feel
Speaker 1: like we only scratch the surface about the things we
Speaker 1: could talk about.
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, and thanks again. Bye.
Speaker 2: Thanks mate,