Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and
Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's and today we're gonna talk about The Kinks. Yes,
Speaker 1: they're one of my all time favorites. And you know
Speaker 1: what's great because long before the Gallagher brothers were even born,
Speaker 1: the Davy's brother we're pissing each other off on stage.
Speaker 1: It's great, truly one of my favorites. Uh Ray and Dave,
Speaker 1: the prototypical brit pop sibling rivalry. They even had a
Speaker 1: motto the band that fights together stays together, which was
Speaker 1: true until when they fought one too many times and
Speaker 1: they didn't stay together anymore. But unlike Oasis, it looks
Speaker 1: like they're getting back together, which is incredible. I can't
Speaker 1: even fathom how a new Kink's record is going to
Speaker 1: be received in Yeah, it's pretty inspiring and like, I think, frankly,
Speaker 1: pretty fortunate that these guys are still alive and like
Speaker 1: willing to play together. I mean, like the Kinks, like
Speaker 1: they really are like one of the greatest rock bands
Speaker 1: of all time. And Ray and Dave Davies are at
Speaker 1: the center of it. I mean, you mentioned the Gallagher brothers,
Speaker 1: and I think the Davis brothers have a similar dynamic.
Speaker 1: You know, the older brother is the songwriting genius, which
Speaker 1: really is true for Ray Davies. He's just the master
Speaker 1: with melody and lyrics. And then you have the younger brother, Dave,
Speaker 1: who was like the rock and roll wild man, and
Speaker 1: I think he's also like a genuinely important and underrated guitarists.
Speaker 1: Like if you love hard rock, have you metal punk,
Speaker 1: any kind of music that's loud and gritty, you have
Speaker 1: to give it up for Dave Davies. And you're right.
Speaker 1: The Kings have such a weird spot and kind of
Speaker 1: like the British invasion pantheon because like they definitely didn't
Speaker 1: have the commercial success of the Beatles of the Stones,
Speaker 1: and certainly not in the US for reasons we'll get
Speaker 1: to later. But they had this incredibly crunch like like
Speaker 1: you said, really gritty early singles, but they didn't really
Speaker 1: invent them so elves or reinvent themselves in the seventies
Speaker 1: is like hard rock band like The Who did, but
Speaker 1: they were never really like a cult group either, like
Speaker 1: the Zombies who had the big comeback, and kind of
Speaker 1: the nineties and early two thousand's with Odyssey and Oracle.
Speaker 1: They they really just were so consistent navigating all these
Speaker 1: really like micro eras from pop singles of the mid sixties,
Speaker 1: the kind of more album oriented stuff with Village Green
Speaker 1: Preservation Society and Arthur, and like early seventies you've got
Speaker 1: like Muswell Hillbillies that kind of stripped down stuff and
Speaker 1: all the way through to the MTV age. But like
Speaker 1: come Dancing, Come Dancing is a hot song, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's like the first Kink song I ever heard.
Speaker 1: I remember seeing that when I was five years old,
Speaker 1: and I thought the Kinks were a new band, although
Speaker 1: they looked like a pretty old but nevertheless, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like the Kinks have this really
Speaker 1: unique combination of having like a dozen recognizable hits that
Speaker 1: if you like rock music, you know, songs like you
Speaker 1: Really Got Me in All Day and All the Night
Speaker 1: and Lola and all those songs, but like they're not
Speaker 1: as overexposed as like the biggest songs by the Beatles
Speaker 1: and the Rolling Stones, So they're this classic rock band
Speaker 1: that still feels like a little underground, which I think
Speaker 1: makes them eternally cool. And they also have Ray and Dave,
Speaker 1: like these battling, brilliant brothers who have just supplied us
Speaker 1: with so much drama and violence over the years. I mean,
Speaker 1: like these guys were banned from entering America for several years.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how crazy these guys are. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's just so much to discuss here, So without further ado,
Speaker 1: let's get into this mess. Dave Davies once observed I
Speaker 1: think Ray was happy for only three years in his life,
Speaker 1: and those were the three years before I was born,
Speaker 1: which is strikingly similar to I think with something Liam
Speaker 1: said about nol too, which is one of the first
Speaker 1: of many similarities we'll see between these brothers. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Dave may have a point. Ray was the youngest boy,
Speaker 1: uh in a family with six older sisters, so for
Speaker 1: years he had you know, it was just doated on
Speaker 1: by the entire family. And then Dave came along and
Speaker 1: kind of stole his thunder, stole his limelights. So I
Speaker 1: can see how that those seeds we planted early on
Speaker 1: in their relationship. Yeah, old story. The baby comes along
Speaker 1: and upstages the older brother. Oh Yeah, And there was
Speaker 1: an early incident that kind of really set the stage
Speaker 1: for I think that they sort of lived this out
Speaker 1: in their relationship many times over the years. Uh. They
Speaker 1: were just having a little fist fight around the house,
Speaker 1: as as a little brothers do, and uh, Dave pushed Ray,
Speaker 1: and Ray fell and hit his head against the family
Speaker 1: piano and he's out. He's on the floor, he's on
Speaker 1: his back. Dave thinks, oh, should I just killed Ray?
Speaker 1: And he goes over and you know, checks to make
Speaker 1: sure he's still breathing. Right when he's in front of
Speaker 1: Ray's face, Ray just sucks him right in the face,
Speaker 1: just opens his eyes, you know, an incredible sneak attack.
Speaker 1: And uh, and Dave later said, you know, that's symbolic
Speaker 1: of our entire relationship. I felt pleasured that I had
Speaker 1: knocked him over, then concerned that I had heard him,
Speaker 1: but all he really wanted was to get back at me. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And if you're gonna make a biopick about these guys,
Speaker 1: And by the way, like someone needs to make a
Speaker 1: biopic about the Kinks, or like a really good documentary,
Speaker 1: because this is such a great story that I feel
Speaker 1: like has been sort of undertold a little bit, But
Speaker 1: you know, I think like some other crucial scenes that
Speaker 1: would be in that movie where would be like when
Speaker 1: Ray Davies got his first guitar. Like that story is
Speaker 1: so crazy, Like he got this guitar from one of
Speaker 1: his older sisters and then she goes out dancing later
Speaker 1: that night and like literally dies on the dance floor.
Speaker 1: I mean, can you believe that story? On his birthday?
Speaker 1: It's on his birthday too, and it just traumatizes him.
Speaker 1: He goes into himself basically, and it kind of changes
Speaker 1: the course of his life. He becomes this very introspective,
Speaker 1: sensitive person. And then you have Dave Davies, his younger brother,
Speaker 1: who has his own traumatic event that happens when he's
Speaker 1: a teenager. He ends up uh and pregnating his girlfriend
Speaker 1: when he's fifteen, and his parents and the girl's parents
Speaker 1: conspired to keep these two apart, and Dave doesn't actually
Speaker 1: meet his daughter I think until he was like in
Speaker 1: his thirties. Oh yeah, I might even have been in
Speaker 1: the kindies. It was a long long time, yeah, And
Speaker 1: it feels like these events helped to shape who these
Speaker 1: guys became. Because you have Ray Davies, who is this rooting, sensitive,
Speaker 1: introspective person and then you have Dave, who again he's
Speaker 1: like the wild guy. You know, he's the wild child,
Speaker 1: and it just forms this sort of oil and water
Speaker 1: combination that again, you know, we talked about Noel and
Speaker 1: Liam Gallagher, there was a very similar dynamic. They're like
Speaker 1: where Noel was the more introspective one and Liam, the
Speaker 1: younger brother, is a little crazier. And on one hand
Speaker 1: you could say like, Okay, these guys needed each other
Speaker 1: to balance each other out, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: because of these contrasting personality traits that they had, it
Speaker 1: just seems like they rubbed each other the wrong way
Speaker 1: from the beginning of the relationship. And this carries on
Speaker 1: into their approach to music too. He raised told these
Speaker 1: stories about how when he first started learning guitar, he
Speaker 1: would just anguish over learning these really elaborate guitar picking styles,
Speaker 1: and Dave was like, okay, I learned five chords, mastered it.
Speaker 1: Now like I got this, and it even comes through
Speaker 1: in there they're playing too, like I think of something
Speaker 1: like the opening of of Shangri Law with a really
Speaker 1: delicate fingerpicking, and then listen to like Annie Dave Davis
Speaker 1: solo on some of the early singles, and it just
Speaker 1: sounds like he's just beating the guitar with his fists.
Speaker 1: He's just wrestling the solo out of it. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it definitely comes through in their music too. But as
Speaker 1: you said, very much like Liam and Noel, the band
Speaker 1: that really seems like it was more Ray's band was
Speaker 1: actually started by Dave. Dave was had this rock and
Speaker 1: roll impulse and even though he's probably not as good
Speaker 1: a musician as Ray was, at this stage, he was
Speaker 1: the one who, uh first wanted to express himself in
Speaker 1: a rock and roll band, so he got together with
Speaker 1: the Kinks bassist Peter quaf and Ray was sort of
Speaker 1: more deep into art school and focused on painting and
Speaker 1: film and all these other things, so he ended up
Speaker 1: joining later um and it was really the three of
Speaker 1: them Ray, Peter and Dave. And some of their early
Speaker 1: names are great. They were the Boweevils for a while.
Speaker 1: Isn't that an amazing that sounds like it could be
Speaker 1: like like a seventies like, you know, on a support
Speaker 1: act for like the Cramps or something. That's a great name.
Speaker 1: I think the Kinks is a pretty incredible name too.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's something about that band name that feels
Speaker 1: like pretty modern, Like you could imagine a band in
Speaker 1: England from the late seventies being called the Kinks. Like
Speaker 1: it sounds like like a punk band name, like ten
Speaker 1: years before punk existed. You know, it's not in the
Speaker 1: typical tradition of like you know, the Beatles or you
Speaker 1: know some of the other or the Hollies other British
Speaker 1: invasion sounding bands that have more cute, cie sounding names.
Speaker 1: Like there's always something like a little menacing I think
Speaker 1: about The Kinks, and I think a lot of that
Speaker 1: has to do with the dynamic between Ryan Dave, because
Speaker 1: pretty much from the beginning, I mean, these guys were
Speaker 1: at each other's throats, like they would fight everywhere. You know,
Speaker 1: they'd fight the studio, they fight backstage. You know, they're
Speaker 1: fighting in the back of limousines. You know. There's this
Speaker 1: story that one of their early producers tells about how uh,
Speaker 1: you know, he would go to Ray and say, how
Speaker 1: about doing a tour of Germany? And Ray would agree
Speaker 1: to it, and then he'd go to Dave, and then
Speaker 1: Day would want to do the tour or two. And
Speaker 1: then once Ray heard that Dave wanted to do the tour,
Speaker 1: Rave wouldn't want to do the tour. Like that's the
Speaker 1: kind of relationship that they had very much, you know,
Speaker 1: contradicting the other person. Um, you know, if he wants it,
Speaker 1: then I don't want it, and vice versa. But I
Speaker 1: think like when you listen to the Kinks music, I
Speaker 1: feel like that tension just permeates all their best records. Like,
Speaker 1: to me, like what made the Kinks unique is that
Speaker 1: there's this combination of being this sort of there's this
Speaker 1: very kind of prim englishness to it. On one hand,
Speaker 1: like the melodies are very beautiful and ornate, uh and
Speaker 1: raise lyrics I think are like pretty literary for like,
Speaker 1: especially like a British sixties singer songwriter like he was
Speaker 1: I think way ahead of like the other people in
Speaker 1: the British Invasion in terms of like writing these story
Speaker 1: oriented lyrics. So you have that aspect, But then undercutting
Speaker 1: all that stuff is this like just aggression running underneath
Speaker 1: everything where it feels like it's going to spill over
Speaker 1: into violence at any moment, you know. So you have
Speaker 1: the you have the intellect, and you have the violence
Speaker 1: going hand in hand, and it's really it's what makes
Speaker 1: that band special. And it's crazy that's the same band
Speaker 1: that made like, you know, Mr. Pleasant and then All
Speaker 1: Day and All the Night. I mean you feel like
Speaker 1: those are just two completely different sides of the coin.
Speaker 1: It's amazing that could do both of those and do
Speaker 1: them so well. Yeah, and of course their first big
Speaker 1: head ends up being You Really Got Me, which is
Speaker 1: I think like one of the most important rock songs ever.
Speaker 1: I mean that might sound like hyperbole, but like you
Speaker 1: hear that song, and that song predates punk, it create,
Speaker 1: it predates heavy metal, and yet you could hear the
Speaker 1: roots of those musics when you hear that song. Oh absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, that that you hear the roots. And
Speaker 1: also just Dave's guitar style of power chords was so
Speaker 1: so important for young people learning guitar. I mean that
Speaker 1: was when I first learned guitar. I was having trouble
Speaker 1: with chords and stuff, Like you get the power chords
Speaker 1: that Dave uses and you feel like, oh, I can
Speaker 1: actually play a song. It's so great for your confidence.
Speaker 1: It's like guitar training wheels or something. And I feel
Speaker 1: like if you can play a riff that you recognized,
Speaker 1: like you really got me as an like when you
Speaker 1: have you know, two months of guitar under your belt
Speaker 1: or something like, that's really important. So I think of
Speaker 1: all these like young guitars starting out who grew in
Speaker 1: the guitar legends who bevered that was like their first
Speaker 1: riff they learned. But of course, as with most things
Speaker 1: in the Kinks, that was something that that Davy's brothers
Speaker 1: fought over as well. Sort of how that guitar sound
Speaker 1: in that song came about. Dave claims that he bought
Speaker 1: a really cheap little amplifier and it sounded terrible and
Speaker 1: you couldn't get a good sound of it. So just
Speaker 1: out of pure curiosity, he took a razor blade and
Speaker 1: cut the speaker cone in the back, just just cut
Speaker 1: holes in it, just to see what would happen, because
Speaker 1: it was a cheap piece of garbage. And then that's
Speaker 1: what led to that kind of like dog barking guitar
Speaker 1: sound that he got for you really got me um,
Speaker 1: and that meant a lot to him, like he felt
Speaker 1: that was like a huge part of his legacy. Of course,
Speaker 1: fifty years later, Ray claims that he did it and
Speaker 1: he also had a jukebox musical in London. Uh, that
Speaker 1: kind of supported that the story that that Ray invented
Speaker 1: this guitar sound, and I've got really uptight about it
Speaker 1: and made a whole long Facebook post about my brother's lying.
Speaker 1: I'm just flabbergasted and shocked at the depth of his
Speaker 1: selfish desire to take credit for everything. I never once
Speaker 1: claimed songwriting royalties and you really got me. Yet this
Speaker 1: song would not have happened without my guitar sound, which
Speaker 1: is true. Yeah, I mean, and it's fascinating how you
Speaker 1: know this song? It was their breakout hit. It came
Speaker 1: out in four so you know, fifty five years ago.
Speaker 1: Over fifty five years ago, and yet the core of
Speaker 1: the conflict between Ray and Dave, you can just see
Speaker 1: it all play out in this story because from Dave's perspective,
Speaker 1: the thing that he's always talked about over the years
Speaker 1: is that he feels that Ray isn't capable of giving
Speaker 1: him credit. And there's an interview I read with him
Speaker 1: once where he likened his brother to a vampire and
Speaker 1: he says, he said, quote race sucks me of my ideas, emotions,
Speaker 1: and creativity. He's a control freak. And you know this
Speaker 1: is something that exists in many bands. You know, we've
Speaker 1: talked about this in other episodes, where you know, there's
Speaker 1: someone at the head of the band that is looked
Speaker 1: at in the media as being the tour of the
Speaker 1: band and they get a lot of the credit, and
Speaker 1: then the other people in the band come to resent
Speaker 1: it because they aren't getting credit for their contributions. In
Speaker 1: this story, you add the sibling rivalry aspect to it,
Speaker 1: which is like steroids basically like just pumping it into
Speaker 1: like the usual resentments that exists in a band, and
Speaker 1: it just totally exacerbates it um from race perspective. Though.
Speaker 1: I don't know, did you ever see that documentary Imaginary
Speaker 1: Man that came out, like Julian Temple movie came out
Speaker 1: two thousand ten. There's this moment like early in the
Speaker 1: movie where like they're walking through I think it's like
Speaker 1: a schoolhouse. It was like at the old theater. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like one of the first places that The Kink's ever played,
Speaker 1: and they bring up you really Got Me, and Ray
Speaker 1: Davies says very seriously that, like that was the day
Speaker 1: I was born, you know, like that was the beginning
Speaker 1: of my life, and you really feel it for him,
Speaker 1: like this isn't is music for Ray Davies. This is
Speaker 1: like his legacy. This is like such a huge thing
Speaker 1: for him, and it feels that way. I think the
Speaker 1: Dave Davies too, but like they're both fighting over this thing.
Speaker 1: It's almost like two kids fighting over a toy. It's
Speaker 1: like I had the toy first, it's mine, and they've
Speaker 1: been pulling at it, you know, for decades now. And
Speaker 1: it really again, it began with this first big hit
Speaker 1: that they had. I love that Ray compared that song
Speaker 1: is something by Stockhausen. In that same scene in the documentary,
Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, I don't know about that,
Speaker 1: Like it's a cool song, Ray, but I'm not sure
Speaker 1: if it's like, you know, avant garde jazz level. But uh,
Speaker 1: but no, you're right. I mean it happens again and again.
Speaker 1: Dave feels that Ray is not only pompous, but just
Speaker 1: is really not very generous with with awarding credit for
Speaker 1: input and help. And it's really sad. He said, you know,
Speaker 1: I looked up to him as a brother and a collaborator,
Speaker 1: and he looked at me as a rival. And I
Speaker 1: think sad not only is a musical partner, but as
Speaker 1: you say as a remember of the family too, Ray
Speaker 1: thought of Dave as being this crazy kid playing these
Speaker 1: amazing guitar ramps. I think that's a direct quote from him,
Speaker 1: and he's not wrong, but he sensed this really sort
Speaker 1: of dismissive tone in that description of what Dave brought
Speaker 1: to the band, which was such a vibe. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think the name the Kinks was actually born out
Speaker 1: of all the kind of wild fashions that Dave was wearing,
Speaker 1: like the long Chelsea boots with the huge heels, which
Speaker 1: we were called kinky boots in England, and like he
Speaker 1: would wear his girlfriends jackets and things like that and
Speaker 1: center apart his hair and and just kind of like
Speaker 1: play with androw Jenny years before you know, Boie was
Speaker 1: on the scene or anything too. So Yeah, for considering
Speaker 1: how much of the soul that Dave brought to the band,
Speaker 1: I can see why he would be so frustrated. Well again,
Speaker 1: you know, I think when you listen to the Kinks music,
Speaker 1: there's a very obvious combination of like just this very delicate,
Speaker 1: beautiful songwriting and like the aggression and the violence of
Speaker 1: how the songs are played, and it's like the magic
Speaker 1: of that band, because you get everything that you could
Speaker 1: possibly want from a rock band. You get like great melody,
Speaker 1: you get you know, just insightful lyrics, and yet it's
Speaker 1: very visceral, gut level music. Um and you don't have
Speaker 1: that if you don't have Dave contributing when he's bringing
Speaker 1: to it along with obviously these great songs that Ray
Speaker 1: was writing. And it's really funny you because I was
Speaker 1: really trying to figure out, like, who would he Ray
Speaker 1: have been inspired by as a lyricist in that era,
Speaker 1: because you said that there's they're so literate, and I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: like maybe Bob Dylan, But I can't even because Sid Barrett,
Speaker 1: I think was another eighteen months or two years down
Speaker 1: the road. Like it really is so singular. I can't
Speaker 1: think of anybody that he would have drawn from. Maybe
Speaker 1: music hall stuff, I guess. I think he talks about
Speaker 1: that imaginary man too. But yeah, it really so different
Speaker 1: to anything that was happening on the scene. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think I mean, obviously the things that people always
Speaker 1: talking about with the Kinks is their subject matter that
Speaker 1: they were writing about. Um. Well, first of all, writing
Speaker 1: very English songs like unlike the Beatles and the Stones.
Speaker 1: The Kinks didn't try to sound American, you know, they
Speaker 1: were upfront with their englishness, which is what has made
Speaker 1: them one of the most influential, if not the most
Speaker 1: influential British rock band and other British rock bands. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's so many bands that have like just taken their
Speaker 1: cues from The Kinks, whether it's The Jam, the Smith's,
Speaker 1: you know, Oasis, all the way down the Linebutines, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: But then there's also like the domestic things that he
Speaker 1: was writing about. He wasn't writing about the sort of
Speaker 1: typical sex, drokes and rock and roll things. He was
Speaker 1: writing about regular people living lives I guess of quiet
Speaker 1: desperation if you will. And I mean, and that seems
Speaker 1: like it was directly drawn from his own life. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it was like like a kitchen sync drama
Speaker 1: put to music, dead End Street and a devastating song. Means,
Speaker 1: shankra Law is incredible just the way that it captured
Speaker 1: I mean, all of obviously village green preservation society. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: it's really interesting that he almost seems like he's drawn
Speaker 1: more from like like dramatists like Joe Orton or something
Speaker 1: like that than than jaggered Richards or anything like that.
Speaker 1: But that's what Dave brought to it. But I also
Speaker 1: want to talk about one of my favorite incidents from
Speaker 1: the their mid sixties period, which is Ray Davy's wedding.
Speaker 1: There obviously they're they're there butting heads outside of the
Speaker 1: studio as well. Ray gets married, he asks his brother
Speaker 1: Dave to act as best man. His only brother, Dave
Speaker 1: to act as best man. Um, Dave drinks a lot
Speaker 1: at the wedding ceremony. By the time he gets up
Speaker 1: to give a speech, he just gets up and says
Speaker 1: he's too piste to give it. Sits back down. Uh.
Speaker 1: He's found a short time later in a bedroom by
Speaker 1: his sister in the middle of having sex with the
Speaker 1: maid of honor. So yeah, not a great family moment there.
Speaker 1: And um, although I had to wonder if he didn't
Speaker 1: get along well with Ray's wife because I guess Ray
Speaker 1: really used her as a sounding board to like a
Speaker 1: really extreme extent, like he would bring her into the studio,
Speaker 1: I think, and she would be on like the talk
Speaker 1: back Mike, like offering her opinions and stuff. I think.
Speaker 1: So maybe Dave had a had an extra grind with
Speaker 1: her too. I don't know. Yeah, that's an interesting part
Speaker 1: of the story which I didn't totally know until we started,
Speaker 1: you know, researching for this episode. I mean, it is
Speaker 1: almost like a pre John and Yoko type dynamic going
Speaker 1: on in The Kinks. In that regard. What's interesting to
Speaker 1: me is that, you know, Ray and Dave at this point,
Speaker 1: we're living very different lives. You have Ray settling down
Speaker 1: into this domestic life, and then you have Dave, who
Speaker 1: is really living the life of a rock star and
Speaker 1: he's written about that about you know, all the adventures
Speaker 1: that he had with chemicals and different sexual adventures that
Speaker 1: he was having in the mid sixties, and he's like
Speaker 1: really kind of taking advantage of, like all of the
Speaker 1: revolutions that were happening in culture at that time. And
Speaker 1: you have Ray, who I think, you know, obviously he
Speaker 1: loved his wife. He loved her enough to sort of
Speaker 1: involve her in the creative aspect of the band, but
Speaker 1: you can also see that he was suffering some misery,
Speaker 1: you know, from this kind of life. You know, there's
Speaker 1: this well known story about him having a breakdown during
Speaker 1: this period, like this emotional breakdown that was caused both
Speaker 1: by the responsibilities that he had as a family man
Speaker 1: and also just the role that he had in the Kinks,
Speaker 1: that he was the one expected to keep coming up
Speaker 1: with hit songs and writing songs for the albums. And
Speaker 1: there's this fame a story I think did this happened
Speaker 1: like when they were on tour, where like he basically
Speaker 1: just like hold himself up in a in a room
Speaker 1: and with like a bunch of beer and just got
Speaker 1: loaded and like wouldn't come out for a week. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: his daughter was born and like a week later they're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's cool, congrats on your daughter. You gotta go to
Speaker 1: America now, so uh so, yeah, a week after his
Speaker 1: daughter's birth, he had to go out on tour. He
Speaker 1: didn't really want to do. He's already exhausted and yeah,
Speaker 1: he just got to create a beer ship to his
Speaker 1: hotel and stayed in the hotel room and just got
Speaker 1: loaded every day. So he's having a really tough time.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you hear about these stories, it
Speaker 1: makes me think again about the songs that Ray Davies
Speaker 1: was writing at this time, and he was writing again
Speaker 1: about these regular people living in domestic situations. You know,
Speaker 1: whether it's like a Well Respected Man or Sunny Afternoon,
Speaker 1: all these classic songs where it's about the facade of
Speaker 1: suburban happiness concealing like a deep dissatisfaction and alienation. And
Speaker 1: I thought a lot about this song. It's on the
Speaker 1: album Something Else. It's called Two Sisters, which is one
Speaker 1: of my favorite Kinks songs. And in that song, it's
Speaker 1: about these two sisters, one who is a housewife and
Speaker 1: the other who's like this free spirited woman going about town,
Speaker 1: and the housewife is very jealous of her sister, and um,
Speaker 1: at the end of the song, the woman realizes that no,
Speaker 1: she's happier actually being at home with her family, and
Speaker 1: she actually now feels sorry for a quote that wayward lass.
Speaker 1: That's how he she refers to her sister in the song.
Speaker 1: And like, it seems pretty obvious that this is a
Speaker 1: song about Ray looking at his brother Dave, that maybe
Speaker 1: on some level he felt jealous of Dave, but he
Speaker 1: justified his own life to himself by saying that, like, well,
Speaker 1: he's probably actually miserable being out there partying and having
Speaker 1: sex with a bunch of people. I'm better off being
Speaker 1: where I am. I mean, doesn't that seem like a
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward interpretation of that song. Yeah, and I always
Speaker 1: thought that songs like Dandy and Dedicated Follower of Fashion,
Speaker 1: we're kind of like taking the piss out of Dave too.
Speaker 1: It just sort of they're they're very like looking down
Speaker 1: his nose at these people who are just like you know,
Speaker 1: in the cool scene. And so I guess when you
Speaker 1: put that alongside two sisters, you're right. I think he's
Speaker 1: definitely talking to him and two brothers are probably a
Speaker 1: little two on the nose. But yeah, that's an incredible song.
Speaker 1: So you have Ray Dave fighting, Dave is having sex
Speaker 1: with the maid of honor at Ray's wedding. Ray's writing
Speaker 1: bitchy songs that seemed like subtweets about his brother. How
Speaker 1: did this affect the rest of the band? I mean, like,
Speaker 1: I feel like the tension that was existing between the brothers,
Speaker 1: I mean, they created other problems in the Kinks, didn't it.
Speaker 1: I think at some point pretty much everybody in the
Speaker 1: Kings it was almost like fleetwood Mac level of like
Speaker 1: drawing out the map of who hey two and what
Speaker 1: the alliances are. The big other tension in the band
Speaker 1: was between Dave and his former roommate Mick Avery the drummer,
Speaker 1: and this Uh, they had a big blow up on
Speaker 1: stage in Wales, I think in There are two songs
Speaker 1: into their set, and I guess Dave wasn't liking the
Speaker 1: sound that Mick was getting out of his drum kit.
Speaker 1: So he turned around and said, why don't you get
Speaker 1: your cock out and play snare with it, It'll probably
Speaker 1: sound better, which incredible, incredible. Mick did not like that,
Speaker 1: and uh didn't take too kindly to that suggestion, and
Speaker 1: so he took a symbol and hurled it like Frisbee
Speaker 1: style at Dave's head, which you know, frisbee that's like
Speaker 1: odd job and goldfinger that's like that. That could that
Speaker 1: could kill someone. So it hits Dave and he falls
Speaker 1: to the floor on the stage. He's unconscious, he's bleeding.
Speaker 1: I think he needed like sixteen stitches or something. Ray
Speaker 1: is screaming. You know, this is all in front of
Speaker 1: a huge crowd, the whole pack theater. Ray is screaming,
Speaker 1: my brother, my brother, They killed my brother. Mick thinks, oh,
Speaker 1: should I killed his brother. He just books it off stage,
Speaker 1: out of the theater rooms. At that point, the police
Speaker 1: pick him up and he denies it, and then they're like, dude,
Speaker 1: there were several thousand people who watched this happen, Like no,
Speaker 1: so yeah that that was fun and Amazingly, again, the
Speaker 1: band that fights together stays together. He stayed with the
Speaker 1: band for another couple of decades. I think, all right hand,
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more rivals. You know, like,
Speaker 1: let's say you go see the Kinks in like nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty nineteen sixty six, are you disappointed if the drummer
Speaker 1: doesn't throw his symbol at Dave Davies? Are you sort
Speaker 1: of like a man? I saw the Kinks and they
Speaker 1: just played like this seen songs and it was really good.
Speaker 1: But like whatever, there was no fighting, there's no emotional
Speaker 1: breakdowns on stage. I feel like the people that saw
Speaker 1: that show were like, this is the best rock show
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. I mean, you know, like they almost
Speaker 1: killed each other right in front of us. You know,
Speaker 1: they'd be amazing. I mean, but like that was their reputation.
Speaker 1: And then in sixties and like this story blows me away.
Speaker 1: I can't think of another band that this is true of.
Speaker 1: Like they were actually banned from coming into America, like
Speaker 1: which that literally happened there was like there was the
Speaker 1: union was that the American Federation of Musicians they issued
Speaker 1: a boycott of the Kinks from nineteen sixty four in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, which you know, just think of like
Speaker 1: your favorite British rock bands from the sixties sixty to
Speaker 1: sixty eight is like a big chunk of time that
Speaker 1: is like the heart of you know, I guess the
Speaker 1: second wave of the British invasion, and they weren't allowed
Speaker 1: to come into the country, and I mean, I think
Speaker 1: some of it had to do with their reputation, but
Speaker 1: like didn't they also just like piste off a bunch
Speaker 1: of promoters in America too, like like what like what
Speaker 1: was the explanation for that? There are a couple of things.
Speaker 1: There was their reputation. They got into some fight backstage
Speaker 1: with one of Dick Clark's producers who basically thought that
Speaker 1: all English people were communists and started to slagging off
Speaker 1: British people and Ray and Dave, we're not going to
Speaker 1: stand for that. They joined forces for for King and
Speaker 1: Country on that one, and so really piste off somebody
Speaker 1: at ABC. And then I think the main problem was
Speaker 1: there was a show in Sacramento, and I forget what
Speaker 1: happened with the promoter. I think the promoter tried to
Speaker 1: like in advance, tried to like lower the rate they're
Speaker 1: gonna pay them or something. They were piste off at
Speaker 1: this promoter. So they went out on stage and instead
Speaker 1: of playing a full set, they just played one forty
Speaker 1: five minute long version if You Really Got Me, which
Speaker 1: is kind of awesome. Like I would almost rather see
Speaker 1: that they invented the Grateful Dead just by being it.
Speaker 1: You know, they were like, We're gonna be jerks and
Speaker 1: invent like jam bands tonight. I mean, there's probably no
Speaker 1: chance that that was recorded by anyone, but like, how
Speaker 1: much would you want to hear the forty five minute
Speaker 1: piste off version of You Really Got Me? I mean
Speaker 1: that would just be unbelievable and not believe me. I
Speaker 1: I checked when I when I heard that story, I
Speaker 1: have not been able to find it, but oh my god.
Speaker 1: So there's all of that, and then there's also people
Speaker 1: of theorized that they just you know, didn't pay off
Speaker 1: the right people that you needed to pay off when
Speaker 1: you were a rowdy band dealing with the piste off
Speaker 1: American federations and musicians. So yeah, it was just bad
Speaker 1: strategy all around. I mean, I think it's interesting thinking
Speaker 1: about this now because again, like there was this four
Speaker 1: year period where the Kinks couldn't tour in America, you know,
Speaker 1: America being like the number one touring market in the world,
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's any question that that adversely
Speaker 1: affected their career. I mean, I think that they probably
Speaker 1: even today, like would be more famous if they could
Speaker 1: have toured America and possibly sold more records here in
Speaker 1: the States um during that time. But in a way too,
Speaker 1: I wonder if that helped them because it did make
Speaker 1: them again not as overexposed as some of their peers,
Speaker 1: and also it made them seem more special in a way,
Speaker 1: I think, uh, and it also made them seem like outlaws,
Speaker 1: you know, like I definitely helped their rock and roll
Speaker 1: credibility in a way. And I also wonder too if
Speaker 1: that contributed to what Ray was writing about, was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: well we're kind of dead in America. We can't get there.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna write up to this really local audience that
Speaker 1: kind of isn't really being served about things that that
Speaker 1: they know and relate to in their own lives too,
Speaker 1: and that was why it seems so quintessentially English, was
Speaker 1: that he was really just writing to them because he
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to break into a bigger market. So I
Speaker 1: don't know, it was a theory. I think that's totally right.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, like here in America, there's
Speaker 1: always that subset of people, and I think you and
Speaker 1: I belong in this subset who like fetishize English music,
Speaker 1: you know, like groups that are really into their englishness.
Speaker 1: Uh you know, you know they call them angle files
Speaker 1: here in America. You know that we we like that idea.
Speaker 1: It just kind of makes it exotic in a way,
Speaker 1: even though they're singing about, you know, village greens, Like
Speaker 1: what's the village green? I have no idea what that is,
Speaker 1: but you know, like village Green preservation Society. Now, I
Speaker 1: mean like we look at that as being this classic record.
Speaker 1: Of course, it comes out in um and I think
Speaker 1: for a lot of people that's considered like the greatest
Speaker 1: Kinks album. But when that album came out, I mean
Speaker 1: it was like an enormous flop. I mean I think
Speaker 1: it only sold like a couple of thousand copies in
Speaker 1: its first week. At the same time that like the Beatles,
Speaker 1: we're putting out the White album and like literally selling
Speaker 1: like millions of copies, you know, right after that album dropped.
Speaker 1: I mean like they were pretty dead in the water
Speaker 1: commercially at that time, which is interesting too. I mean,
Speaker 1: you think of the sounds is different than definitely not
Speaker 1: doing anymore that like you really Got Me type stuff,
Speaker 1: which probably in sixty eight with hendrickson cream and all
Speaker 1: the more heavy guitar sounding stuff might have been better
Speaker 1: suited to him rather than doing these kind of delicate,
Speaker 1: village green type almost folky songs. And it's also it's
Speaker 1: riots in Paris, Chicago, Budapest, assassinations of Martin Luther King,
Speaker 1: and Robert Kennedy's tet, offensive in Vietnam. It's just a
Speaker 1: very violent, bloody year. And I feel this way about
Speaker 1: the Beach Boy's Friends album too. I feel like this
Speaker 1: kind of delicate, sweet, small scale record was just absolutely
Speaker 1: ripped to shreds in this like put out into this environment.
Speaker 1: No one wanted to hear that, which is a shame because,
Speaker 1: like you said, it's one of my favorite albums of
Speaker 1: there's two. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like the Kinks
Speaker 1: went out of their way to like be irrelevant at time,
Speaker 1: like like, we're not going to address any of the
Speaker 1: social unrest that's going on. We're not even gonna really
Speaker 1: make a record that like addresses anything that is contemporary,
Speaker 1: Like we're looking backward. We're looking like at the history
Speaker 1: of our country and also at the double edged sword
Speaker 1: of tradition, you know, like where I think a lot
Speaker 1: of bands at that time, you know, they were looking
Speaker 1: at the conventions of society in a very skeptical way,
Speaker 1: and Ray Davies could do that, but he also I
Speaker 1: think had more affection for that than a lot of
Speaker 1: other British rockers at the time, which again just put
Speaker 1: him out of step with what was going on in
Speaker 1: the culture. Yeah, I was thinking of if the Beatles
Speaker 1: went from releasing Rubber Soul to them an album that
Speaker 1: was like strictly when I'm sixty four, Martha my dear
Speaker 1: type stuff. You know that every gonna be like wait, what,
Speaker 1: what what are you doing? Like Okay, you get one
Speaker 1: of these per album, but like the whole thing, like
Speaker 1: you're you're way too into this. Yeah, Like they just
Speaker 1: leave helter skelter and Revolution on the cutting room floor
Speaker 1: and we're just going to do the old timing soft
Speaker 1: shoe ballads. Yeah, that totally. Yeah, So the Kings were
Speaker 1: out of step, and I feel like that is what
Speaker 1: led to Dave Davies pursuing a solo career. I mean,
Speaker 1: is that safe to say that, Like maybe there was
Speaker 1: a sense that the Kinks were on their way out,
Speaker 1: so then Dave was going to try to step out
Speaker 1: on his own. And because he was like the young
Speaker 1: guitar player, he was like pretty cute, it seemed like
Speaker 1: maybe like he could position himself to be a star
Speaker 1: in his own. Ray was really out of commission for
Speaker 1: a while. I think this was around the time when
Speaker 1: he had another breakdown at his home where he literally
Speaker 1: like walked several miles from a suburban home into London,
Speaker 1: like just on foot, very like Peter Green style. I
Speaker 1: think it was a similar story with him where he
Speaker 1: he liked went to his PR person and like threatened
Speaker 1: him and and ended up being like sent off to
Speaker 1: a to a facility somewhere to like and sedated. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He Ray was really going through a tough time right now,
Speaker 1: so Dave probably thought, you know what I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna distansce myself a bit and try to like at
Speaker 1: least keep my musical career afloat, and he did very well.
Speaker 1: His song Death of a Clown, which was co written
Speaker 1: with Ray and included on I think it was on
Speaker 1: something Else by the Kinks, went to number three in
Speaker 1: London and I think sixty seven, so you know, not
Speaker 1: too shabby. Also amazing song, one of my favorite Kinks songs.
Speaker 1: This is the thing about Dave Davies is that, like
Speaker 1: he's not a prolific songwriter, but many of his songs
Speaker 1: are like among are among my favorite Kinks songs, like
Speaker 1: death of a Clown, which again you know is co
Speaker 1: written by Ray, so he deserves some credit for that
Speaker 1: as well. But like that's like a top five Kink
Speaker 1: song for me, and I think of the song Strangers
Speaker 1: To from the Lola album um is definitely like in
Speaker 1: my top five. So he is kind of like a
Speaker 1: George Harrison figure a little bit in this band that
Speaker 1: like you've got the dominant songwriter who is the acknowledge genius,
Speaker 1: but like Dave was asserting himself too, But that seemed
Speaker 1: like that was also always a challenge in the Kinks that,
Speaker 1: like Ray was not gonna let Dave have like too
Speaker 1: much material on a Kink's record. What do you think
Speaker 1: of Susannah is Still Alive, which I think also did
Speaker 1: really well too after Death of Ane. I think it
Speaker 1: got to like number twenty or something. It's a pretty
Speaker 1: good song. That's another a great song. I love that
Speaker 1: song too. I mean, like the thing with Dave Davies
Speaker 1: is that I think he's like he has a similar
Speaker 1: sensibility to his brother, but it's always just like a
Speaker 1: little more raw. Like his voice I think is like
Speaker 1: such a great instrument where it has a wildness to
Speaker 1: it. It It minds me again. I keep comparing them to
Speaker 1: other British rock bands, but like Dave as a lead
Speaker 1: vocalist and especially as a harmony vocalist, it reminds me
Speaker 1: of like Keith Richards, where it's like sometimes he's harmonizing
Speaker 1: with Ray and sometimes he's kind of like shouting like
Speaker 1: over over Ray. But it's such like a high, lonesome
Speaker 1: emotional quality to it, and it always draws me in
Speaker 1: and I will say that, you know, I mean, I
Speaker 1: think he was born to be a sideman to his brother. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: really yeah, I do things. I mean, Ray is like
Speaker 1: one of the greatest songwriters ever. Uh, certainly in British rock.
Speaker 1: What Dave brought to his songs and what he brought
Speaker 1: to King's records, like with his own songs, like these
Speaker 1: songs that could be kind of a contrast to what
Speaker 1: Ray was doing. It was such a great sort of
Speaker 1: pinch of like garlic, you know in the stew of
Speaker 1: of of the Kinks. Uh. I mean it really wasn't valuable.
Speaker 1: I always got the impression, I mean, maybe I just
Speaker 1: have Nolan Liam on the brain, but personality wise, Dave
Speaker 1: felt like more of a of a lead vocalist to me,
Speaker 1: and I was always kind of surprised that he wasn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, I always thought he had the talent, and
Speaker 1: I could see just Ray more personality kind of wanting
Speaker 1: to be the rhythm guitarist in the back who was
Speaker 1: the one making all these great songs like nol. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that that always surprised me that they went that way.
Speaker 1: I mean you can see like once the Kinks moved
Speaker 1: into the seventies that Ray becomes like much more demonstrative,
Speaker 1: where at times like if you watch if you go
Speaker 1: on YouTube and you see like Kinks performances from the
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two seventy three. It's almost like Ray is
Speaker 1: trying to be like Mick Jagger a little bit. Like
Speaker 1: there was a period I think where he stopped playing
Speaker 1: guitar on stage a lot, and he would kind of
Speaker 1: prance around and you know, be more of a front man.
Speaker 1: I also wonder how much that had to do with
Speaker 1: his life falling apart a little bit around that time.
Speaker 1: I mean, because you know, like like by seventy three,
Speaker 1: his marriage I think had ended, and it seems like
Speaker 1: he was really hitting like the Booze and the Pills
Speaker 1: pretty hard at that time. Yeah, which is a shame
Speaker 1: because the albums they released from like sixty eight to
Speaker 1: seventy three or actually some of my favorites. Actually Arthur
Speaker 1: is I think my favorite Kinks record. I just think
Speaker 1: that's an amazing as a concept of songs start to
Speaker 1: finish just are unbelievable. What do you think of Arthur? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's like probably my favorite too. Like Arthur, you know,
Speaker 1: it either be Arthur, like Lola is awesome, Muswell Hillbillies,
Speaker 1: I mean, Village Green is great. I mean Arthur on
Speaker 1: most days is my favorite, but like there's other days
Speaker 1: where I could pick any one of those other records.
Speaker 1: But you're right. I mean it came out of a
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of pain for him, and he had a
Speaker 1: major collapse on stage right like in the middle of
Speaker 1: a show. Yeah, in nineteen seventy three. It was and uh,
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think that's like when his wife
Speaker 1: left him, like like he was married at two daughter
Speaker 1: as his wife left, And I mean it's like a
Speaker 1: very dramatic type thing. I mean, didn't he like kiss
Speaker 1: his brother in the cheek or something and say like
Speaker 1: thank you all for everything you've done, but I'm but
Speaker 1: I'm done. I mean it's almost sort of like like
Speaker 1: a suicide note type breakup. I mean, it's very alarming
Speaker 1: when it happened. Oh yeah, I think that was the
Speaker 1: same night that he went home and took a bottle
Speaker 1: of pills and went to his girlfriend and basically told
Speaker 1: her what he'd done. And he was rushed to a
Speaker 1: London hospital and when he arrived, he declared, I'm Ray
Speaker 1: Davies and I'm dying before collapsing in the lobby elements
Speaker 1: of drama there. You're not wrong, I think years later
Speaker 1: he tried to explain it away being like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I was having a really hard time. Dr gave me
Speaker 1: these pills and said take one of these when you
Speaker 1: feel bad, and I was feeling bad a lot. But
Speaker 1: I think another time he basically admitted, like, yeah it
Speaker 1: was it was a suicide attempt, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: to his credit, like Dave stepped up and he was
Speaker 1: I think pretty supportive him him at this time. I
Speaker 1: mean he took him to Denmark, I think, like on
Speaker 1: a vacation and uh, I think he was like playing
Speaker 1: him chuck Berry songs or maybe they were jamming on
Speaker 1: chuck Berry songs together. But he's basically trying to cheer
Speaker 1: his brother up, and I feel like that worked for
Speaker 1: him at that time. Yeah, I definitely raised his spirits.
Speaker 1: But I personally liked to almost pretend that the band
Speaker 1: broke up after everybody's in show biz because I all
Speaker 1: the mid seventies stuff I I just I can't deal with.
Speaker 1: I mean, the good news was Race survived, his spirit
Speaker 1: was restored. The bad news is the stuff he released
Speaker 1: for I think the rest of the seventies was terrible.
Speaker 1: I read somebody's quote once said Gray David spent the
Speaker 1: sixties building reputation as a great songwriter and the seventies
Speaker 1: destroying that reputation. And I don't know, I just when
Speaker 1: was the last time you listen to Preservation Act one
Speaker 1: or Act two? Like? Well, I have to say that
Speaker 1: I recently made a playlist of fourteen songs taken from
Speaker 1: those two albums, and with the idea being that like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be the A and R guy for the Kinks,
Speaker 1: that the one that they didn't have in the seventies.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, like, you can't put these two albums out,
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna take the best songs and make one
Speaker 1: record and we're not going to care about this storyline,
Speaker 1: you know, the storyline of Preservation Act which I don't
Speaker 1: even want to get into. It's it's sort of like
Speaker 1: the music Man, isn't it. Isn't it Like a guy
Speaker 1: comes into a town and he's like conning them blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. Anyway, but he's just like darl Quinn too,
Speaker 1: isn't he. There's like something really tragic outfit that he
Speaker 1: were on stage. Yeah, yeah, he looks like the Riddler
Speaker 1: at times, But this thing is really it doesn't really work.
Speaker 1: But like the album I made from those two albums,
Speaker 1: I think is actually quite good. I mean, there's songs
Speaker 1: on there like Sweet Genevieve, which is a great song. Um,
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of like really good songs from that
Speaker 1: from that era. But you're right, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: the problem was that instead of just focusing on great songs,
Speaker 1: he got distracted with these big concepts like albums like
Speaker 1: Sleepwalker and Misfits, like where the Kinks were taking cues
Speaker 1: from the punk bands that they inspired originally, you know,
Speaker 1: like they were making records that were kind of in
Speaker 1: the style of like The Am or The Clash a
Speaker 1: little bit, although with more of like an arena rock
Speaker 1: type sheme to it. So I think those albums are
Speaker 1: actually pretty good. I'd recommend those. But you're right, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think at this time it was more about the
Speaker 1: Kinks legend, and a lot of that legend had to
Speaker 1: do with Ray and Dave hating each other, and I
Speaker 1: wondered too, Ray, now that he had access to America again,
Speaker 1: was really trying to fight for sort of the the
Speaker 1: global critical acclaim that he felt he'd been denied, with
Speaker 1: stuff like Village Green and Arthur and stuff which you know,
Speaker 1: we're not massive hits. I mean lowlow Side. I don't
Speaker 1: really think that they reached their mid sixties commercial peak
Speaker 1: again until the MTV are right. So I could see
Speaker 1: him just like really gunning for almost like Brian Wilson level,
Speaker 1: like no, I'm gonna make a statement, and no one
Speaker 1: was interested. So then when they would do albums like
Speaker 1: Low Budget or Misfits or Sleepwalker, that was when they
Speaker 1: were signed with Clive Davis on Arista, and I can
Speaker 1: imagine Clive Davis was just like no, no, just he
Speaker 1: I could see him being really instrumental and just telling
Speaker 1: them that give me a hit. I don't care about
Speaker 1: this potential stuff, just give me a hit. And it worked.
Speaker 1: It worked, and I think the Kinks, you know, into
Speaker 1: the late seventies into the eighties, like we're a pretty
Speaker 1: popular live act. Like they could go out and they
Speaker 1: could perform, and they would do these sort of like
Speaker 1: souped up versions of like their old sixties hits where
Speaker 1: they kind of sound like night Ranger playing like there's
Speaker 1: sixties hits. You know, it's just like kind of a
Speaker 1: mixed bag at times. But you know, with all the
Speaker 1: tension that was going on, between Ryan Dave and again
Speaker 1: I think that um as the Kinks became this legacy
Speaker 1: act essentially, and this this band that you would go
Speaker 1: see because of their iconic status and maybe not so
Speaker 1: much for like the records that they were putting out
Speaker 1: at that particular time. So much of that was like
Speaker 1: about the relationship between Ryan Dave and like the continued
Speaker 1: tension that would exist. And it's interesting like as they
Speaker 1: got older, how they would comment on that and their music,
Speaker 1: Like there's that song hatred uh from like one of
Speaker 1: their like their last studio records, which is Phobia from
Speaker 1: Have you heard that song? Oh my god, I thought
Speaker 1: it was it was satire, but it also there's so
Speaker 1: many specifics in are you could tell is definitely born
Speaker 1: from something. Yeah, this this is lyric And there you go.
Speaker 1: You keep on accusing me of making your life misery.
Speaker 1: But if that's not abusing me, what Isn't you want
Speaker 1: to be my friend? Well it's too late. My love
Speaker 1: for you has turned to hate. And then so the
Speaker 1: finest lyricists of his generation. Yeah, I know, it's a
Speaker 1: little Kinks by numbers, you know, And again it just
Speaker 1: seems like, Okay, our relationship has been a problem in
Speaker 1: this band for a long time. But now like we're
Speaker 1: gonna have sort of like a winking acknowledgement of it.
Speaker 1: We're gonna, you know, make it work for us that
Speaker 1: we know, we're gonna play it up almost like again
Speaker 1: like a pro wrestling aspect, which I think happened. I mean,
Speaker 1: we talked about that in our our Liam and Noel
Speaker 1: Gallagher episode that I think especially for Liam Gallagher and
Speaker 1: in recent years he has been playing up that the
Speaker 1: pro wrestling aspect of his tension with his brother, that
Speaker 1: like there's a performative aspect to it where it's like, well,
Speaker 1: this is what people expect, so like we we have
Speaker 1: to acknowledge it, we have to have fun with it.
Speaker 1: Like there's this clip on YouTube of Ray and Dave
Speaker 1: giving an interview. I think it's like on Entertainment Tonight
Speaker 1: around Yeah, And like I think I don't know if
Speaker 1: they're promoting Phobia or some other Kink's record, but like,
Speaker 1: isn't there a clip like we're like Ray starts like
Speaker 1: choking Dave or is it the around? I think it was.
Speaker 1: I think it was Ray choking Dave. Yeah, And it's
Speaker 1: and I think that I think it was for phobia,
Speaker 1: and I think that they're talking about hatred, which you know,
Speaker 1: really like you said, I think it was maybe more
Speaker 1: of a pro wrestling move, but I don't know. Dave
Speaker 1: seems genuinely annoyed. He's like every time he starts to
Speaker 1: try to speak, Ray kind of like cuts him off.
Speaker 1: And it's funny for a bit, but Ray then just
Speaker 1: pushes a little too far and Dave starts getting like
Speaker 1: it seems real. It's it's definitely a fun watch though. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So there's again this aspect where it's performative, but it's
Speaker 1: also not performative like they're playing it up in the media.
Speaker 1: But they also don't really like each other, and it
Speaker 1: really comes to a head. I guess what, Like I mean,
Speaker 1: that's when they broke up. Yeah, I mean Phobia I
Speaker 1: think added as high as like a hundred and sixty
Speaker 1: six for one week on the charts and step so commercially,
Speaker 1: they were not at their peak, and so there wasn't
Speaker 1: a huge amount of reason to keep the pan together
Speaker 1: unless they actually liked being together, which it's pretty clear
Speaker 1: at this point they did not. And kind of the
Speaker 1: final straw for Dave was was his own birthday party. Ray. Uh,
Speaker 1: he wanted to throw himself a birthday party. I guess
Speaker 1: he didn't have the money, so Ray did it for him,
Speaker 1: and he threw this big party. And then Ray got
Speaker 1: up on the table and gave a toast was supposed
Speaker 1: to be for Dave, but just wound up Ray praising himself,
Speaker 1: saying what a great guy was, and then ending the
Speaker 1: toast by stomping on the cake, the birthday cake for
Speaker 1: his brother, which echoes of of the wedding, maybe echoes
Speaker 1: of Ray's wedding where where Dave got drunk and didn't
Speaker 1: give a speech. Maybe I don't know. I thought that
Speaker 1: was a nice way to book end their just functional
Speaker 1: Kink's career. But um, so you think he was playing
Speaker 1: a long game with that. You think he was like
Speaker 1: waiting for like another occasion where he could just like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you ruin my wedding, So I'm gonna I'm gonna wait
Speaker 1: twenty years or I guess it was third two years.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pay for this cake and then I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stomp on it. Like that's how petty I am about you.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't put it past them. I mean,
Speaker 1: there is this deep dislike. But yeah, I think when
Speaker 1: you stomp on your brother's birthday cake, your band is
Speaker 1: probably done. At that point. It's probably time to pack
Speaker 1: it in. Yeah, that's a new I mean, for all
Speaker 1: the feuds that we've talked about, I don't think there's
Speaker 1: been a stomping on a birthday cake incident yet. I
Speaker 1: think this is the first. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. We've
Speaker 1: had shoe throwing, and we've had you know, various you know,
Speaker 1: fists being thrown and spittle being shot out of mouths,
Speaker 1: but I never had a cake stomping. So thank you
Speaker 1: Ryan Dave for that. So the band is done after that.
Speaker 1: And what's interesting to me because like, again, this is
Speaker 1: the caink so there's never any shortage of drama. So
Speaker 1: they both have like these pretty terrible health scares. In
Speaker 1: the odds, I think they both occurred in two thousand four,
Speaker 1: and the first was Dave like, didn't you have a stroke? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was leaving like a book signing or something, and
Speaker 1: he got to have an elevator and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden he just collapsed on the floor and they rushed
Speaker 1: into a hospital and he'd had a stroke. So he
Speaker 1: he sent home to recuperate, and Ray, to his credit,
Speaker 1: goes to look after him, and it's going along really
Speaker 1: well for a couple of weeks, and then, according to
Speaker 1: Dave at least, Ray couldn't stand not being the center
Speaker 1: of attention, so he started screaming, I'm in pain and
Speaker 1: oh my god, I got this like huge pain in
Speaker 1: my stomach. Something's going on. Take me to the hospital.
Speaker 1: He got to the hospital. Doctors, there's nothing wrong with you, Ray, Davies, like,
Speaker 1: you're this is in your head. So Dave thinks that
Speaker 1: that he just can't stand to be the center of attention,
Speaker 1: which I enjoy that I don't know, psychosmatic pains. This
Speaker 1: makes the other story like pretty incredible because like later
Speaker 1: on A two thou four, Ray was actually like shot
Speaker 1: during an attempted robbery in New Orleans. I think he
Speaker 1: was like I think like his his girlfriend like like
Speaker 1: someone snatched her person. He like went after the thief
Speaker 1: and then he got shot. So maybe that's just him
Speaker 1: being a glory hawk again. You know, it's like this
Speaker 1: is an opportunity he paid. It's ax episode, isn't it.
Speaker 1: That's something from Curb. He like pays somebody to like
Speaker 1: snatch somebody's purse so that so that he can like
Speaker 1: tackle into the ground and look like a hero. Same thing.
Speaker 1: So I mean, now we're at a point where, you know,
Speaker 1: they've had all this bad blood going on over the years,
Speaker 1: but like it looks like they're gonna really do this reunion, right.
Speaker 1: I Mean the reason why I'm like a little unsure
Speaker 1: is because, like the way that this was announced was
Speaker 1: really weird. Oh so weird. I'd be like, Ray basically
Speaker 1: said it in the middle of an interview, but like
Speaker 1: it seems like he maybe wasn't supposed to say it.
Speaker 1: I mean, who answers their cell phone in the middle
Speaker 1: of a like a taped televised interview, So it almost
Speaker 1: made me seem like he wanted to get the guy's attention.
Speaker 1: It seemed a little to stage. So he's giving an
Speaker 1: interview on I think BBC or something in his phone
Speaker 1: rings and he's like kind of muttering into it, and
Speaker 1: they stopped taping, and the interviewer was just kind of
Speaker 1: killing time waiting for Ray to hang up. And then
Speaker 1: Ray said, all right, Mike see at the pub. Later
Speaker 1: the interviewer say, wait, Mick, like Mick Avery, like the
Speaker 1: drummer for your old band, The Kinks, that you haven't
Speaker 1: played within twenty years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're we're we're
Speaker 1: going to the pub later. Oh that's interesting. Why Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: we're gonna We're gonna get the Kinks back together. Wait
Speaker 1: are you serious? Yeah? It was just really like shambolic,
Speaker 1: like this is your big enough, Like you're doing it
Speaker 1: like in between takes of a TV interview to promote
Speaker 1: your new solo single. But yeah, I never understood why
Speaker 1: he did it that way, if it was staged, or
Speaker 1: if it was just a really poorly thought out announcement. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like the worst press release of all time. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't understand that. But but you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: and of course, who knows when we're going to have
Speaker 1: tours again at any rate, So that that, you know,
Speaker 1: just the state of the world right now, it's hard
Speaker 1: to know, you know, what will happen with this reunion.
Speaker 1: You also don't want these guys commingually with with each other,
Speaker 1: you know, at least hopefully they'll be wearing masks, because
Speaker 1: I would assume Brand Dave are both in the highly
Speaker 1: susceptible to you know, infectious diseases type camp. Hopefully they'll
Speaker 1: be all right, but you know, it would be great
Speaker 1: to see these guys playing together again. I also read too,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw this, but like this
Speaker 1: is a story from apparently like they live next door
Speaker 1: to each other now in London. I didn't see that,
Speaker 1: or at least they have like houses next to each other,
Speaker 1: so like, I don't know, like maybe it's not like
Speaker 1: their primary residents, but like some London tabloid took a
Speaker 1: photo of Ray and Dave like taking out their garbage
Speaker 1: together or something. I've not heard that. Wow, So you know,
Speaker 1: this could either be like the best thing in their
Speaker 1: relationship or they could end up like burning each other's
Speaker 1: houses down. You know, who knows what'll happen, but hopefully
Speaker 1: it won't happen before these guys actually get back together.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break to get a word
Speaker 1: from our sponsor before we get to more rivals. So
Speaker 1: this is the part of the episode where we look
Speaker 1: at the pro side of each part of the rivalry.
Speaker 1: And let's start with Dave Davies. You know, I think
Speaker 1: we've talked about this already at out just his stature
Speaker 1: as an incredible guitar player. I think as a as
Speaker 1: a player who's been very influential in like punk and
Speaker 1: heavy metal, even if like Ray himself, has not always
Speaker 1: given his brother credit. I also think that he's like
Speaker 1: a pretty underrated songwriter. Like I said, like some of
Speaker 1: my favorite Kink songs are by Dave, not questioning the
Speaker 1: primacy of of Ray Davies in the Kinks, but Dave,
Speaker 1: I think again, being like the George Harrison of this band. UM,
Speaker 1: I think always applied a really nice dash of his
Speaker 1: own voice to all the great Kinks records. UM. And again, ultimately,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, if we go back to what's
Speaker 1: at the heart of their conflict, it seems like they
Speaker 1: would argue about credit above anything else, and Ray not
Speaker 1: wanting to give Dave his props for what he contributed
Speaker 1: to the band. And I mean it seems like we
Speaker 1: both agree that like Dave has a point with that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think he's the soul of the band
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. I see him as like how
Speaker 1: Dennis Wilson was the guy in the Beach Boys who
Speaker 1: actually served Dave was the one who was actually out
Speaker 1: in the scene that Ray was commenting on and kind
Speaker 1: of like feeding back the specifics of what was happening
Speaker 1: to him. I yeah, I always thought and even in
Speaker 1: the early photo shoots when they have the red hunting
Speaker 1: jackets and whips and all these kind of kinky things
Speaker 1: like that was Dave's idea. So I think that that
Speaker 1: so much of that in the band's image and soul
Speaker 1: was from him. Like I said, I'm still so shocked
Speaker 1: that he wasn't a lead singer. I he really still
Speaker 1: seems like somebody that would have shown in that way.
Speaker 1: And although I guess the fact that he's still shown
Speaker 1: out just as kind of being a side guitar, I mean,
Speaker 1: he wasn't sside guitarist. He's Dave. Dave. He's one of
Speaker 1: the best guitarists ever. But like the fact that he
Speaker 1: was able to do so well not being a lead singer,
Speaker 1: I think is impressive. His guitar playing Jesus Christ. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're all these rumors about Jimmy Page actually playing some
Speaker 1: of the guitar solos on the early Kinks songs. It's
Speaker 1: not true, but I love the story that Jimmy Page
Speaker 1: was apparently in the control room when they were playing Uh,
Speaker 1: Dave's guitar solo for All Day and All the Night back,
Speaker 1: and Jimmy just winced because he was like, what is that.
Speaker 1: That's not I do a guitar solo. But it's like
Speaker 1: it's like the ultimate garage band guitar solo. I feel
Speaker 1: like he made the template, like him and the Kingsman
Speaker 1: Louis Louis uh lay the template for like garage rock.
Speaker 1: I feel like, oh yeah, and like, look again, if
Speaker 1: we talk about punk rock, they tried to play like
Speaker 1: Dave Davis, not Jimmy Page, you know, and like that
Speaker 1: sort of like anti technique that he brought to the
Speaker 1: guitar again is so influential, I think, uh and you know,
Speaker 1: anyone that just wanted to play gut level rock and roll,
Speaker 1: like those early Kinks songs are just so essential. Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: and Dave has a lot to do with that going
Speaker 1: to the pro race side. Look I think again, like
Speaker 1: I said, I think he's like one of the great
Speaker 1: songwriters of of British rock. In a way, I feel
Speaker 1: like he's underrated now because you know, we we talked
Speaker 1: so much about you know, Lennon McCartney, Jagger Richards, you know,
Speaker 1: Pete Townsend, all the greats, all these people that had
Speaker 1: more commercial success and had a higher profile in America
Speaker 1: than The Kinks did. But if you look at Ray's
Speaker 1: best material and just like how much melody there's in
Speaker 1: those songs, and like how smart the lyrics are, I
Speaker 1: feel like Ray really is uncommonly gifted. And you know,
Speaker 1: we've made several comparisons to Oasis in this episode, but like,
Speaker 1: to me, as much as I love Oasis and I
Speaker 1: love Noel Gallagher, he can't touch Ray Davies in terms
Speaker 1: of songwriting, especially like as a lyricist, Like as a lyricist,
Speaker 1: they're not even in the same ballpark. And I think
Speaker 1: when you factor in those songs and the fact that
Speaker 1: so many people have covered them and they translate so
Speaker 1: well to different places, and like how again, I feel
Speaker 1: like because Ray Davies wrote about things that were not
Speaker 1: typical of the time, you know, he had to focus
Speaker 1: on England, he had to focus on sort of regular people.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just proven to be so influential for
Speaker 1: people that are looking I think, for something a little
Speaker 1: bit different than like what you get from a traditional
Speaker 1: rock song. You know, as much as Dave I think
Speaker 1: contributed to the sound and the attitude of the Kinks.
Speaker 1: You know, at the heart of this band is the songs.
Speaker 1: And you've got to give Ray his credit for that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, especially in America, I think he's
Speaker 1: way more into rated than he should be, and he
Speaker 1: gets so many props for his lyrics. But you're right
Speaker 1: as a melody maker, absolutely unparalleled. I mean, I can't
Speaker 1: believe we haven't mentioned Waterloo Sunset yet. I think one
Speaker 1: of the most gorgeous songs ever written, Like that's up
Speaker 1: there with God only knows for me in terms of
Speaker 1: like Days Davis beautiful, you know, you said Shank Rola
Speaker 1: before That's beautiful, you know this time tomorrow. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's so many songs you could mention, if nothing else,
Speaker 1: if he'd never written anything other than Model lo son Set,
Speaker 1: I think that Ray deserves his knighthood and all the
Speaker 1: praise that he's ever gotten since. I mean, that's just unbelievable.
Speaker 1: So when we look at these two guys together, you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear that what made the Kings great,
Speaker 1: and what really makes any rock band great is a
Speaker 1: combination of songwriting and swagger, melody and mayhem and brains
Speaker 1: and balls, And I think Ray brought the former and
Speaker 1: Dave brought the ladder um. And also, you know, fighting
Speaker 1: is such a big part of the Kinks story and
Speaker 1: as you know, miserable as it was for these guys
Speaker 1: probably to be around each other, it makes for a
Speaker 1: great rock band. I mean, we like that tension in bands.
Speaker 1: We like how that can create a lot of energy
Speaker 1: that translates in the music. And I think that spirit,
Speaker 1: that battling spirit um really gives these songs an edge
Speaker 1: that to this day makes them so powerful. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: rock and rolls about so much aggression. I mean, you've
Speaker 1: got all the familial stuff that they're working out on
Speaker 1: stage and on the mic. You're right, it just kicks
Speaker 1: it up to such another level. And it's interesting too
Speaker 1: that for all the differences of opinion and arguments that
Speaker 1: that Ray and David had over the years, it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like they've had very many musical differences in terms
Speaker 1: aside from credit. It seems like it was never like, no,
Speaker 1: it should go like this, No it should go like this,
Speaker 1: or I want more of my songs on there, which
Speaker 1: is interesting because you would think that there would be
Speaker 1: more fights about that, like in terms of like you know,
Speaker 1: with the band or something like that, with songwriting, credits
Speaker 1: and everything. But it's it's fast thing that really was personal.
Speaker 1: It was I think Dave would later say, you know,
Speaker 1: Raise a clever guy, an observer, very good at expressing
Speaker 1: himself in music, very articulate about other people's feelings, but
Speaker 1: he wasn't good at expressing his own feelings or telling
Speaker 1: you how much he cares about you. And that's I
Speaker 1: think the crux of what went on between them. Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: it's it's an old story in rock and roll, it's
Speaker 1: an old story in the world. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: we we joked about Cane and Abel in our Oaitis episode.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a very cane and an able
Speaker 1: app type story here um with with Ray and Dave.
Speaker 1: You know this idea again that like, you love this person,
Speaker 1: but you also feel like they're not giving you the
Speaker 1: respect that you deserve. And uh, it never goes away.
Speaker 1: Even as you are almost eighty years old now, like
Speaker 1: both of these guys, I feel like there's probably still
Speaker 1: some of that lingering between them. I just want you
Speaker 1: to Jordan that I respect what you bring to our show.
Speaker 1: I think you are a well respected man. Oh Stephen,
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I like to tech this opportunity
Speaker 1: to say how much I care about you. Oh well,
Speaker 1: it's a sunny afternoon here on the Rivals podcast, So
Speaker 1: thank you all for listening on a Waterloo sunset over
Speaker 1: on the lake right where I am. Thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to this episode. We will be back with more rivals
Speaker 1: and beefs and long simmering resentments next week. M Rivals
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers
Speaker 1: are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are
Speaker 1: Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stat.
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you
Speaker 1: like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review.
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