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Speaker 1: Rivals as a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music beefs and

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Speaker 1: feuds and long simmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's and today we're gonna talk about The Kinks. Yes,

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Speaker 1: they're one of my all time favorites. And you know

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Speaker 1: what's great because long before the Gallagher brothers were even born,

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Speaker 1: the Davy's brother we're pissing each other off on stage.

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Speaker 1: It's great, truly one of my favorites. Uh Ray and Dave,

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Speaker 1: the prototypical brit pop sibling rivalry. They even had a

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Speaker 1: motto the band that fights together stays together, which was

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Speaker 1: true until when they fought one too many times and

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Speaker 1: they didn't stay together anymore. But unlike Oasis, it looks

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Speaker 1: like they're getting back together, which is incredible. I can't

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Speaker 1: even fathom how a new Kink's record is going to

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Speaker 1: be received in Yeah, it's pretty inspiring and like, I think, frankly,

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Speaker 1: pretty fortunate that these guys are still alive and like

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Speaker 1: willing to play together. I mean, like the Kinks, like

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Speaker 1: they really are like one of the greatest rock bands

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Speaker 1: of all time. And Ray and Dave Davies are at

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Speaker 1: the center of it. I mean, you mentioned the Gallagher brothers,

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Speaker 1: and I think the Davis brothers have a similar dynamic.

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Speaker 1: You know, the older brother is the songwriting genius, which

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Speaker 1: really is true for Ray Davies. He's just the master

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Speaker 1: with melody and lyrics. And then you have the younger brother, Dave,

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Speaker 1: who was like the rock and roll wild man, and

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Speaker 1: I think he's also like a genuinely important and underrated guitarists.

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Speaker 1: Like if you love hard rock, have you metal punk,

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Speaker 1: any kind of music that's loud and gritty, you have

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Speaker 1: to give it up for Dave Davies. And you're right.

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Speaker 1: The Kings have such a weird spot and kind of

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Speaker 1: like the British invasion pantheon because like they definitely didn't

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Speaker 1: have the commercial success of the Beatles of the Stones,

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Speaker 1: and certainly not in the US for reasons we'll get

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Speaker 1: to later. But they had this incredibly crunch like like

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Speaker 1: you said, really gritty early singles, but they didn't really

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Speaker 1: invent them so elves or reinvent themselves in the seventies

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Speaker 1: is like hard rock band like The Who did, but

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Speaker 1: they were never really like a cult group either, like

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Speaker 1: the Zombies who had the big comeback, and kind of

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Speaker 1: the nineties and early two thousand's with Odyssey and Oracle.

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Speaker 1: They they really just were so consistent navigating all these

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Speaker 1: really like micro eras from pop singles of the mid sixties,

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Speaker 1: the kind of more album oriented stuff with Village Green

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Speaker 1: Preservation Society and Arthur, and like early seventies you've got

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Speaker 1: like Muswell Hillbillies that kind of stripped down stuff and

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Speaker 1: all the way through to the MTV age. But like

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Speaker 1: come Dancing, Come Dancing is a hot song, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's like the first Kink song I ever heard.

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Speaker 1: I remember seeing that when I was five years old,

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Speaker 1: and I thought the Kinks were a new band, although

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Speaker 1: they looked like a pretty old but nevertheless, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like the Kinks have this really

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Speaker 1: unique combination of having like a dozen recognizable hits that

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Speaker 1: if you like rock music, you know, songs like you

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Speaker 1: Really Got Me in All Day and All the Night

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Speaker 1: and Lola and all those songs, but like they're not

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Speaker 1: as overexposed as like the biggest songs by the Beatles

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Speaker 1: and the Rolling Stones, So they're this classic rock band

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Speaker 1: that still feels like a little underground, which I think

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Speaker 1: makes them eternally cool. And they also have Ray and Dave,

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Speaker 1: like these battling, brilliant brothers who have just supplied us

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Speaker 1: with so much drama and violence over the years. I mean,

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Speaker 1: like these guys were banned from entering America for several years.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's how crazy these guys are. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's just so much to discuss here, So without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let's get into this mess. Dave Davies once observed I

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Speaker 1: think Ray was happy for only three years in his life,

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Speaker 1: and those were the three years before I was born,

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Speaker 1: which is strikingly similar to I think with something Liam

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Speaker 1: said about nol too, which is one of the first

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Speaker 1: of many similarities we'll see between these brothers. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: Dave may have a point. Ray was the youngest boy,

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Speaker 1: uh in a family with six older sisters, so for

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Speaker 1: years he had you know, it was just doated on

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Speaker 1: by the entire family. And then Dave came along and

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Speaker 1: kind of stole his thunder, stole his limelights. So I

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Speaker 1: can see how that those seeds we planted early on

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Speaker 1: in their relationship. Yeah, old story. The baby comes along

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Speaker 1: and upstages the older brother. Oh Yeah, And there was

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Speaker 1: an early incident that kind of really set the stage

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Speaker 1: for I think that they sort of lived this out

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Speaker 1: in their relationship many times over the years. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: were just having a little fist fight around the house,

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Speaker 1: as as a little brothers do, and uh, Dave pushed Ray,

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Speaker 1: and Ray fell and hit his head against the family

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Speaker 1: piano and he's out. He's on the floor, he's on

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Speaker 1: his back. Dave thinks, oh, should I just killed Ray?

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Speaker 1: And he goes over and you know, checks to make

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Speaker 1: sure he's still breathing. Right when he's in front of

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Speaker 1: Ray's face, Ray just sucks him right in the face,

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Speaker 1: just opens his eyes, you know, an incredible sneak attack.

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Speaker 1: And uh, and Dave later said, you know, that's symbolic

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Speaker 1: of our entire relationship. I felt pleasured that I had

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Speaker 1: knocked him over, then concerned that I had heard him,

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Speaker 1: but all he really wanted was to get back at me. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And if you're gonna make a biopick about these guys,

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Speaker 1: And by the way, like someone needs to make a

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Speaker 1: biopic about the Kinks, or like a really good documentary,

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Speaker 1: because this is such a great story that I feel

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Speaker 1: like has been sort of undertold a little bit, But

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Speaker 1: you know, I think like some other crucial scenes that

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Speaker 1: would be in that movie where would be like when

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Speaker 1: Ray Davies got his first guitar. Like that story is

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Speaker 1: so crazy, Like he got this guitar from one of

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Speaker 1: his older sisters and then she goes out dancing later

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Speaker 1: that night and like literally dies on the dance floor.

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Speaker 1: I mean, can you believe that story? On his birthday?

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Speaker 1: It's on his birthday too, and it just traumatizes him.

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Speaker 1: He goes into himself basically, and it kind of changes

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Speaker 1: the course of his life. He becomes this very introspective,

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Speaker 1: sensitive person. And then you have Dave Davies, his younger brother,

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Speaker 1: who has his own traumatic event that happens when he's

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Speaker 1: a teenager. He ends up uh and pregnating his girlfriend

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Speaker 1: when he's fifteen, and his parents and the girl's parents

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Speaker 1: conspired to keep these two apart, and Dave doesn't actually

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Speaker 1: meet his daughter I think until he was like in

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Speaker 1: his thirties. Oh yeah, I might even have been in

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Speaker 1: the kindies. It was a long long time, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: it feels like these events helped to shape who these

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Speaker 1: guys became. Because you have Ray Davies, who is this rooting, sensitive,

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Speaker 1: introspective person and then you have Dave, who again he's

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Speaker 1: like the wild guy. You know, he's the wild child,

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Speaker 1: and it just forms this sort of oil and water

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Speaker 1: combination that again, you know, we talked about Noel and

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Speaker 1: Liam Gallagher, there was a very similar dynamic. They're like

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Speaker 1: where Noel was the more introspective one and Liam, the

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Speaker 1: younger brother, is a little crazier. And on one hand

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Speaker 1: you could say like, Okay, these guys needed each other

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Speaker 1: to balance each other out, but at the same time,

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Speaker 1: because of these contrasting personality traits that they had, it

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Speaker 1: just seems like they rubbed each other the wrong way

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Speaker 1: from the beginning of the relationship. And this carries on

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Speaker 1: into their approach to music too. He raised told these

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Speaker 1: stories about how when he first started learning guitar, he

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Speaker 1: would just anguish over learning these really elaborate guitar picking styles,

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Speaker 1: and Dave was like, okay, I learned five chords, mastered it.

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Speaker 1: Now like I got this, and it even comes through

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Speaker 1: in there they're playing too, like I think of something

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Speaker 1: like the opening of of Shangri Law with a really

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Speaker 1: delicate fingerpicking, and then listen to like Annie Dave Davis

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Speaker 1: solo on some of the early singles, and it just

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Speaker 1: sounds like he's just beating the guitar with his fists.

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Speaker 1: He's just wrestling the solo out of it. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it definitely comes through in their music too. But as

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Speaker 1: you said, very much like Liam and Noel, the band

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Speaker 1: that really seems like it was more Ray's band was

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Speaker 1: actually started by Dave. Dave was had this rock and

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Speaker 1: roll impulse and even though he's probably not as good

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Speaker 1: a musician as Ray was, at this stage, he was

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Speaker 1: the one who, uh first wanted to express himself in

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Speaker 1: a rock and roll band, so he got together with

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Speaker 1: the Kinks bassist Peter quaf and Ray was sort of

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Speaker 1: more deep into art school and focused on painting and

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Speaker 1: film and all these other things, so he ended up

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Speaker 1: joining later um and it was really the three of

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Speaker 1: them Ray, Peter and Dave. And some of their early

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Speaker 1: names are great. They were the Boweevils for a while.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that an amazing that sounds like it could be

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Speaker 1: like like a seventies like, you know, on a support

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Speaker 1: act for like the Cramps or something. That's a great name.

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Speaker 1: I think the Kinks is a pretty incredible name too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's something about that band name that feels

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Speaker 1: like pretty modern, Like you could imagine a band in

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Speaker 1: England from the late seventies being called the Kinks. Like

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Speaker 1: it sounds like like a punk band name, like ten

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Speaker 1: years before punk existed. You know, it's not in the

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Speaker 1: typical tradition of like you know, the Beatles or you

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Speaker 1: know some of the other or the Hollies other British

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Speaker 1: invasion sounding bands that have more cute, cie sounding names.

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Speaker 1: Like there's always something like a little menacing I think

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Speaker 1: about The Kinks, and I think a lot of that

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Speaker 1: has to do with the dynamic between Ryan Dave, because

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Speaker 1: pretty much from the beginning, I mean, these guys were

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Speaker 1: at each other's throats, like they would fight everywhere. You know,

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Speaker 1: they'd fight the studio, they fight backstage. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: fighting in the back of limousines. You know. There's this

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Speaker 1: story that one of their early producers tells about how uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, he would go to Ray and say, how

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Speaker 1: about doing a tour of Germany? And Ray would agree

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Speaker 1: to it, and then he'd go to Dave, and then

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Speaker 1: Day would want to do the tour or two. And

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Speaker 1: then once Ray heard that Dave wanted to do the tour,

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Speaker 1: Rave wouldn't want to do the tour. Like that's the

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Speaker 1: kind of relationship that they had very much, you know,

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Speaker 1: contradicting the other person. Um, you know, if he wants it,

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Speaker 1: then I don't want it, and vice versa. But I

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Speaker 1: think like when you listen to the Kinks music, I

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Speaker 1: feel like that tension just permeates all their best records. Like,

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Speaker 1: to me, like what made the Kinks unique is that

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Speaker 1: there's this combination of being this sort of there's this

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Speaker 1: very kind of prim englishness to it. On one hand,

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Speaker 1: like the melodies are very beautiful and ornate, uh and

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Speaker 1: raise lyrics I think are like pretty literary for like,

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Speaker 1: especially like a British sixties singer songwriter like he was

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Speaker 1: I think way ahead of like the other people in

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Speaker 1: the British Invasion in terms of like writing these story

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Speaker 1: oriented lyrics. So you have that aspect, But then undercutting

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Speaker 1: all that stuff is this like just aggression running underneath

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Speaker 1: everything where it feels like it's going to spill over

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Speaker 1: into violence at any moment, you know. So you have

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Speaker 1: the you have the intellect, and you have the violence

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Speaker 1: going hand in hand, and it's really it's what makes

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Speaker 1: that band special. And it's crazy that's the same band

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Speaker 1: that made like, you know, Mr. Pleasant and then All

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Speaker 1: Day and All the Night. I mean you feel like

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Speaker 1: those are just two completely different sides of the coin.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing that could do both of those and do

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Speaker 1: them so well. Yeah, and of course their first big

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Speaker 1: head ends up being You Really Got Me, which is

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Speaker 1: I think like one of the most important rock songs ever.

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Speaker 1: I mean that might sound like hyperbole, but like you

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Speaker 1: hear that song, and that song predates punk, it create,

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Speaker 1: it predates heavy metal, and yet you could hear the

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Speaker 1: roots of those musics when you hear that song. Oh absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I mean yeah, that that you hear the roots. And

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Speaker 1: also just Dave's guitar style of power chords was so

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Speaker 1: so important for young people learning guitar. I mean that

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Speaker 1: was when I first learned guitar. I was having trouble

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Speaker 1: with chords and stuff, Like you get the power chords

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Speaker 1: that Dave uses and you feel like, oh, I can

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Speaker 1: actually play a song. It's so great for your confidence.

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Speaker 1: It's like guitar training wheels or something. And I feel

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Speaker 1: like if you can play a riff that you recognized,

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Speaker 1: like you really got me as an like when you

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Speaker 1: have you know, two months of guitar under your belt

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Speaker 1: or something like, that's really important. So I think of

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Speaker 1: all these like young guitars starting out who grew in

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Speaker 1: the guitar legends who bevered that was like their first

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Speaker 1: riff they learned. But of course, as with most things

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Speaker 1: in the Kinks, that was something that that Davy's brothers

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Speaker 1: fought over as well. Sort of how that guitar sound

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Speaker 1: in that song came about. Dave claims that he bought

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Speaker 1: a really cheap little amplifier and it sounded terrible and

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Speaker 1: you couldn't get a good sound of it. So just

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Speaker 1: out of pure curiosity, he took a razor blade and

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Speaker 1: cut the speaker cone in the back, just just cut

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Speaker 1: holes in it, just to see what would happen, because

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Speaker 1: it was a cheap piece of garbage. And then that's

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Speaker 1: what led to that kind of like dog barking guitar

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Speaker 1: sound that he got for you really got me um,

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Speaker 1: and that meant a lot to him, like he felt

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Speaker 1: that was like a huge part of his legacy. Of course,

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Speaker 1: fifty years later, Ray claims that he did it and

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Speaker 1: he also had a jukebox musical in London. Uh, that

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Speaker 1: kind of supported that the story that that Ray invented

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Speaker 1: this guitar sound, and I've got really uptight about it

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Speaker 1: and made a whole long Facebook post about my brother's lying.

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Speaker 1: I'm just flabbergasted and shocked at the depth of his

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Speaker 1: selfish desire to take credit for everything. I never once

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Speaker 1: claimed songwriting royalties and you really got me. Yet this

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Speaker 1: song would not have happened without my guitar sound, which

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Speaker 1: is true. Yeah, I mean, and it's fascinating how you

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Speaker 1: know this song? It was their breakout hit. It came

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Speaker 1: out in four so you know, fifty five years ago.

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Speaker 1: Over fifty five years ago, and yet the core of

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Speaker 1: the conflict between Ray and Dave, you can just see

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Speaker 1: it all play out in this story because from Dave's perspective,

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Speaker 1: the thing that he's always talked about over the years

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Speaker 1: is that he feels that Ray isn't capable of giving

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Speaker 1: him credit. And there's an interview I read with him

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Speaker 1: once where he likened his brother to a vampire and

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Speaker 1: he says, he said, quote race sucks me of my ideas, emotions,

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Speaker 1: and creativity. He's a control freak. And you know this

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Speaker 1: is something that exists in many bands. You know, we've

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Speaker 1: talked about this in other episodes, where you know, there's

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Speaker 1: someone at the head of the band that is looked

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Speaker 1: at in the media as being the tour of the

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Speaker 1: band and they get a lot of the credit, and

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Speaker 1: then the other people in the band come to resent

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Speaker 1: it because they aren't getting credit for their contributions. In

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Speaker 1: this story, you add the sibling rivalry aspect to it,

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Speaker 1: which is like steroids basically like just pumping it into

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Speaker 1: like the usual resentments that exists in a band, and

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Speaker 1: it just totally exacerbates it um from race perspective. Though.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, did you ever see that documentary Imaginary

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Speaker 1: Man that came out, like Julian Temple movie came out

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Speaker 1: two thousand ten. There's this moment like early in the

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Speaker 1: movie where like they're walking through I think it's like

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Speaker 1: a schoolhouse. It was like at the old theater. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like one of the first places that The Kink's ever played,

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Speaker 1: and they bring up you really Got Me, and Ray

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Speaker 1: Davies says very seriously that, like that was the day

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Speaker 1: I was born, you know, like that was the beginning

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Speaker 1: of my life, and you really feel it for him,

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Speaker 1: like this isn't is music for Ray Davies. This is

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Speaker 1: like his legacy. This is like such a huge thing

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Speaker 1: for him, and it feels that way. I think the

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Speaker 1: Dave Davies too, but like they're both fighting over this thing.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like two kids fighting over a toy. It's

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Speaker 1: like I had the toy first, it's mine, and they've

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Speaker 1: been pulling at it, you know, for decades now. And

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Speaker 1: it really again, it began with this first big hit

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Speaker 1: that they had. I love that Ray compared that song

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Speaker 1: is something by Stockhausen. In that same scene in the documentary,

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Speaker 1: it's like, I don't know, I don't know about that,

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Speaker 1: Like it's a cool song, Ray, but I'm not sure

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Speaker 1: if it's like, you know, avant garde jazz level. But uh,

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Speaker 1: but no, you're right. I mean it happens again and again.

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Speaker 1: Dave feels that Ray is not only pompous, but just

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Speaker 1: is really not very generous with with awarding credit for

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Speaker 1: input and help. And it's really sad. He said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I looked up to him as a brother and a collaborator,

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Speaker 1: and he looked at me as a rival. And I

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Speaker 1: think sad not only is a musical partner, but as

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Speaker 1: you say as a remember of the family too, Ray

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Speaker 1: thought of Dave as being this crazy kid playing these

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Speaker 1: amazing guitar ramps. I think that's a direct quote from him,

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Speaker 1: and he's not wrong, but he sensed this really sort

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Speaker 1: of dismissive tone in that description of what Dave brought

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Speaker 1: to the band, which was such a vibe. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think the name the Kinks was actually born out

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Speaker 1: of all the kind of wild fashions that Dave was wearing,

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Speaker 1: like the long Chelsea boots with the huge heels, which

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Speaker 1: we were called kinky boots in England, and like he

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Speaker 1: would wear his girlfriends jackets and things like that and

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Speaker 1: center apart his hair and and just kind of like

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Speaker 1: play with androw Jenny years before you know, Boie was

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Speaker 1: on the scene or anything too. So Yeah, for considering

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Speaker 1: how much of the soul that Dave brought to the band,

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Speaker 1: I can see why he would be so frustrated. Well again,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think when you listen to the Kinks music,

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Speaker 1: there's a very obvious combination of like just this very delicate,

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Speaker 1: beautiful songwriting and like the aggression and the violence of

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Speaker 1: how the songs are played, and it's like the magic

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Speaker 1: of that band, because you get everything that you could

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Speaker 1: possibly want from a rock band. You get like great melody,

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Speaker 1: you get you know, just insightful lyrics, and yet it's

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Speaker 1: very visceral, gut level music. Um and you don't have

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Speaker 1: that if you don't have Dave contributing when he's bringing

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Speaker 1: to it along with obviously these great songs that Ray

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Speaker 1: was writing. And it's really funny you because I was

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Speaker 1: really trying to figure out, like, who would he Ray

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Speaker 1: have been inspired by as a lyricist in that era,

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Speaker 1: because you said that there's they're so literate, and I'm thinking,

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Speaker 1: like maybe Bob Dylan, But I can't even because Sid Barrett,

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Speaker 1: I think was another eighteen months or two years down

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Speaker 1: the road. Like it really is so singular. I can't

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Speaker 1: think of anybody that he would have drawn from. Maybe

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Speaker 1: music hall stuff, I guess. I think he talks about

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Speaker 1: that imaginary man too. But yeah, it really so different

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Speaker 1: to anything that was happening on the scene. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: I think I mean, obviously the things that people always

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Speaker 1: talking about with the Kinks is their subject matter that

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Speaker 1: they were writing about. Um. Well, first of all, writing

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Speaker 1: very English songs like unlike the Beatles and the Stones.

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Speaker 1: The Kinks didn't try to sound American, you know, they

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Speaker 1: were upfront with their englishness, which is what has made

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Speaker 1: them one of the most influential, if not the most

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Speaker 1: influential British rock band and other British rock bands. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so many bands that have like just taken their

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Speaker 1: cues from The Kinks, whether it's The Jam, the Smith's,

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Speaker 1: you know, Oasis, all the way down the Linebutines, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: But then there's also like the domestic things that he

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Speaker 1: was writing about. He wasn't writing about the sort of

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Speaker 1: typical sex, drokes and rock and roll things. He was

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Speaker 1: writing about regular people living lives I guess of quiet

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Speaker 1: desperation if you will. And I mean, and that seems

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Speaker 1: like it was directly drawn from his own life. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it was like like a kitchen sync drama

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Speaker 1: put to music, dead End Street and a devastating song. Means,

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Speaker 1: shankra Law is incredible just the way that it captured

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Speaker 1: I mean, all of obviously village green preservation society. Yeah. No,

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Speaker 1: it's really interesting that he almost seems like he's drawn

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Speaker 1: more from like like dramatists like Joe Orton or something

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Speaker 1: like that than than jaggered Richards or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: But that's what Dave brought to it. But I also

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Speaker 1: want to talk about one of my favorite incidents from

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Speaker 1: the their mid sixties period, which is Ray Davy's wedding.

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Speaker 1: There obviously they're they're there butting heads outside of the

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Speaker 1: studio as well. Ray gets married, he asks his brother

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Speaker 1: Dave to act as best man. His only brother, Dave

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Speaker 1: to act as best man. Um, Dave drinks a lot

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Speaker 1: at the wedding ceremony. By the time he gets up

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Speaker 1: to give a speech, he just gets up and says

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Speaker 1: he's too piste to give it. Sits back down. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He's found a short time later in a bedroom by

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Speaker 1: his sister in the middle of having sex with the

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Speaker 1: maid of honor. So yeah, not a great family moment there.

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Speaker 1: And um, although I had to wonder if he didn't

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Speaker 1: get along well with Ray's wife because I guess Ray

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Speaker 1: really used her as a sounding board to like a

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Speaker 1: really extreme extent, like he would bring her into the studio,

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Speaker 1: I think, and she would be on like the talk

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Speaker 1: back Mike, like offering her opinions and stuff. I think.

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Speaker 1: So maybe Dave had a had an extra grind with

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Speaker 1: her too. I don't know. Yeah, that's an interesting part

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Speaker 1: of the story which I didn't totally know until we started,

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Speaker 1: you know, researching for this episode. I mean, it is

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Speaker 1: almost like a pre John and Yoko type dynamic going

390
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Speaker 1: on in The Kinks. In that regard. What's interesting to

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Speaker 1: me is that, you know, Ray and Dave at this point,

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Speaker 1: we're living very different lives. You have Ray settling down

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Speaker 1: into this domestic life, and then you have Dave, who

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Speaker 1: is really living the life of a rock star and

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Speaker 1: he's written about that about you know, all the adventures

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Speaker 1: that he had with chemicals and different sexual adventures that

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Speaker 1: he was having in the mid sixties, and he's like

398
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Speaker 1: really kind of taking advantage of, like all of the

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Speaker 1: revolutions that were happening in culture at that time. And

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Speaker 1: you have Ray, who I think, you know, obviously he

401
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,760
Speaker 1: loved his wife. He loved her enough to sort of

402
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Speaker 1: involve her in the creative aspect of the band, but

403
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Speaker 1: you can also see that he was suffering some misery,

404
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,400
Speaker 1: you know, from this kind of life. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: this well known story about him having a breakdown during

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Speaker 1: this period, like this emotional breakdown that was caused both

407
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Speaker 1: by the responsibilities that he had as a family man

408
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Speaker 1: and also just the role that he had in the Kinks,

409
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Speaker 1: that he was the one expected to keep coming up

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Speaker 1: with hit songs and writing songs for the albums. And

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Speaker 1: there's this fame a story I think did this happened

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Speaker 1: like when they were on tour, where like he basically

413
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Speaker 1: just like hold himself up in a in a room

414
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Speaker 1: and with like a bunch of beer and just got

415
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Speaker 1: loaded and like wouldn't come out for a week. Oh yeah,

416
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Speaker 1: his daughter was born and like a week later they're like, oh, yeah,

417
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Speaker 1: that's cool, congrats on your daughter. You gotta go to

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Speaker 1: America now, so uh so, yeah, a week after his

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Speaker 1: daughter's birth, he had to go out on tour. He

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Speaker 1: didn't really want to do. He's already exhausted and yeah,

421
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Speaker 1: he just got to create a beer ship to his

422
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Speaker 1: hotel and stayed in the hotel room and just got

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Speaker 1: loaded every day. So he's having a really tough time.

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Speaker 1: And you know, when you hear about these stories, it

425
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Speaker 1: makes me think again about the songs that Ray Davies

426
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Speaker 1: was writing at this time, and he was writing again

427
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Speaker 1: about these regular people living in domestic situations. You know,

428
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: whether it's like a Well Respected Man or Sunny Afternoon,

429
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 1: all these classic songs where it's about the facade of

430
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 1: suburban happiness concealing like a deep dissatisfaction and alienation. And

431
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: I thought a lot about this song. It's on the

432
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: album Something Else. It's called Two Sisters, which is one

433
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,560
Speaker 1: of my favorite Kinks songs. And in that song, it's

434
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,840
Speaker 1: about these two sisters, one who is a housewife and

435
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:12,080
Speaker 1: the other who's like this free spirited woman going about town,

436
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,800
Speaker 1: and the housewife is very jealous of her sister, and um,

437
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 1: at the end of the song, the woman realizes that no,

438
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 1: she's happier actually being at home with her family, and

439
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: she actually now feels sorry for a quote that wayward lass.

440
00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,840
Speaker 1: That's how he she refers to her sister in the song.

441
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 1: And like, it seems pretty obvious that this is a

442
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: song about Ray looking at his brother Dave, that maybe

443
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 1: on some level he felt jealous of Dave, but he

444
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: justified his own life to himself by saying that, like, well,

445
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 1: he's probably actually miserable being out there partying and having

446
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 1: sex with a bunch of people. I'm better off being

447
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,680
Speaker 1: where I am. I mean, doesn't that seem like a

448
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,080
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward interpretation of that song. Yeah, and I always

449
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 1: thought that songs like Dandy and Dedicated Follower of Fashion,

450
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 1: we're kind of like taking the piss out of Dave too.

451
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 1: It just sort of they're they're very like looking down

452
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 1: his nose at these people who are just like you know,

453
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 1: in the cool scene. And so I guess when you

454
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,680
Speaker 1: put that alongside two sisters, you're right. I think he's

455
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: definitely talking to him and two brothers are probably a

456
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 1: little two on the nose. But yeah, that's an incredible song.

457
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 1: So you have Ray Dave fighting, Dave is having sex

458
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 1: with the maid of honor at Ray's wedding. Ray's writing

459
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: bitchy songs that seemed like subtweets about his brother. How

460
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 1: did this affect the rest of the band? I mean, like,

461
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,840
Speaker 1: I feel like the tension that was existing between the brothers,

462
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: I mean, they created other problems in the Kinks, didn't it.

463
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 1: I think at some point pretty much everybody in the

464
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: Kings it was almost like fleetwood Mac level of like

465
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: drawing out the map of who hey two and what

466
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: the alliances are. The big other tension in the band

467
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 1: was between Dave and his former roommate Mick Avery the drummer,

468
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: and this Uh, they had a big blow up on

469
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,199
Speaker 1: stage in Wales, I think in There are two songs

470
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: into their set, and I guess Dave wasn't liking the

471
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,400
Speaker 1: sound that Mick was getting out of his drum kit.

472
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 1: So he turned around and said, why don't you get

473
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: your cock out and play snare with it, It'll probably

474
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: sound better, which incredible, incredible. Mick did not like that,

475
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 1: and uh didn't take too kindly to that suggestion, and

476
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 1: so he took a symbol and hurled it like Frisbee

477
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: style at Dave's head, which you know, frisbee that's like

478
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: odd job and goldfinger that's like that. That could that

479
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: could kill someone. So it hits Dave and he falls

480
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 1: to the floor on the stage. He's unconscious, he's bleeding.

481
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,640
Speaker 1: I think he needed like sixteen stitches or something. Ray

482
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: is screaming. You know, this is all in front of

483
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,720
Speaker 1: a huge crowd, the whole pack theater. Ray is screaming,

484
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,040
Speaker 1: my brother, my brother, They killed my brother. Mick thinks, oh,

485
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,880
Speaker 1: should I killed his brother. He just books it off stage,

486
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:49,719
Speaker 1: out of the theater rooms. At that point, the police

487
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,879
Speaker 1: pick him up and he denies it, and then they're like, dude,

488
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 1: there were several thousand people who watched this happen, Like no,

489
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: so yeah that that was fun and Amazingly, again, the

490
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: band that fights together stays together. He stayed with the

491
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: band for another couple of decades. I think, all right hand,

492
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: we'll be right back with more rivals. You know, like,

493
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: let's say you go see the Kinks in like nineteen

494
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: sixty nineteen sixty six, are you disappointed if the drummer

495
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: doesn't throw his symbol at Dave Davies? Are you sort

496
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: of like a man? I saw the Kinks and they

497
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 1: just played like this seen songs and it was really good.

498
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 1: But like whatever, there was no fighting, there's no emotional

499
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: breakdowns on stage. I feel like the people that saw

500
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: that show were like, this is the best rock show

501
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. I mean, you know, like they almost

502
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: killed each other right in front of us. You know,

503
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 1: they'd be amazing. I mean, but like that was their reputation.

504
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 1: And then in sixties and like this story blows me away.

505
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: I can't think of another band that this is true of.

506
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,160
Speaker 1: Like they were actually banned from coming into America, like

507
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: which that literally happened there was like there was the

508
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 1: union was that the American Federation of Musicians they issued

509
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: a boycott of the Kinks from nineteen sixty four in

510
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, which you know, just think of like

511
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: your favorite British rock bands from the sixties sixty to

512
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 1: sixty eight is like a big chunk of time that

513
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: is like the heart of you know, I guess the

514
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: second wave of the British invasion, and they weren't allowed

515
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: to come into the country, and I mean, I think

516
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 1: some of it had to do with their reputation, but

517
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: like didn't they also just like piste off a bunch

518
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: of promoters in America too, like like what like what

519
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: was the explanation for that? There are a couple of things.

520
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: There was their reputation. They got into some fight backstage

521
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 1: with one of Dick Clark's producers who basically thought that

522
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: all English people were communists and started to slagging off

523
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: British people and Ray and Dave, we're not going to

524
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: stand for that. They joined forces for for King and

525
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: Country on that one, and so really piste off somebody

526
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 1: at ABC. And then I think the main problem was

527
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: there was a show in Sacramento, and I forget what

528
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: happened with the promoter. I think the promoter tried to

529
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: like in advance, tried to like lower the rate they're

530
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: gonna pay them or something. They were piste off at

531
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 1: this promoter. So they went out on stage and instead

532
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 1: of playing a full set, they just played one forty

533
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: five minute long version if You Really Got Me, which

534
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: is kind of awesome. Like I would almost rather see

535
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: that they invented the Grateful Dead just by being it.

536
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: You know, they were like, We're gonna be jerks and

537
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 1: invent like jam bands tonight. I mean, there's probably no

538
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: chance that that was recorded by anyone, but like, how

539
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: much would you want to hear the forty five minute

540
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 1: piste off version of You Really Got Me? I mean

541
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: that would just be unbelievable and not believe me. I

542
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: I checked when I when I heard that story, I

543
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: have not been able to find it, but oh my god.

544
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: So there's all of that, and then there's also people

545
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: of theorized that they just you know, didn't pay off

546
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: the right people that you needed to pay off when

547
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 1: you were a rowdy band dealing with the piste off

548
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: American federations and musicians. So yeah, it was just bad

549
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: strategy all around. I mean, I think it's interesting thinking

550
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: about this now because again, like there was this four

551
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: year period where the Kinks couldn't tour in America, you know,

552
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,719
Speaker 1: America being like the number one touring market in the world,

553
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: and I don't think there's any question that that adversely

554
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: affected their career. I mean, I think that they probably

555
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: even today, like would be more famous if they could

556
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: have toured America and possibly sold more records here in

557
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 1: the States um during that time. But in a way too,

558
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: I wonder if that helped them because it did make

559
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: them again not as overexposed as some of their peers,

560
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: and also it made them seem more special in a way,

561
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 1: I think, uh, and it also made them seem like outlaws,

562
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: you know, like I definitely helped their rock and roll

563
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: credibility in a way. And I also wonder too if

564
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: that contributed to what Ray was writing about, was like, Okay,

565
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: well we're kind of dead in America. We can't get there.

566
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna write up to this really local audience that

567
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: kind of isn't really being served about things that that

568
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: they know and relate to in their own lives too,

569
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: and that was why it seems so quintessentially English, was

570
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: that he was really just writing to them because he

571
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to break into a bigger market. So I

572
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 1: don't know, it was a theory. I think that's totally right.

573
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, like here in America, there's

574
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: always that subset of people, and I think you and

575
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: I belong in this subset who like fetishize English music,

576
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: you know, like groups that are really into their englishness.

577
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: Uh you know, you know they call them angle files

578
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 1: here in America. You know that we we like that idea.

579
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: It just kind of makes it exotic in a way,

580
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: even though they're singing about, you know, village greens, Like

581
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 1: what's the village green? I have no idea what that is,

582
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: but you know, like village Green preservation Society. Now, I

583
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: mean like we look at that as being this classic record.

584
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: Of course, it comes out in um and I think

585
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: for a lot of people that's considered like the greatest

586
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: Kinks album. But when that album came out, I mean

587
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: it was like an enormous flop. I mean I think

588
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: it only sold like a couple of thousand copies in

589
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: its first week. At the same time that like the Beatles,

590
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: we're putting out the White album and like literally selling

591
00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: like millions of copies, you know, right after that album dropped.

592
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean like they were pretty dead in the water

593
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,719
Speaker 1: commercially at that time, which is interesting too. I mean,

594
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: you think of the sounds is different than definitely not

595
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: doing anymore that like you really Got Me type stuff,

596
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: which probably in sixty eight with hendrickson cream and all

597
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: the more heavy guitar sounding stuff might have been better

598
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: suited to him rather than doing these kind of delicate,

599
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: village green type almost folky songs. And it's also it's

600
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: riots in Paris, Chicago, Budapest, assassinations of Martin Luther King,

601
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: and Robert Kennedy's tet, offensive in Vietnam. It's just a

602
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: very violent, bloody year. And I feel this way about

603
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: the Beach Boy's Friends album too. I feel like this

604
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: kind of delicate, sweet, small scale record was just absolutely

605
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: ripped to shreds in this like put out into this environment.

606
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 1: No one wanted to hear that, which is a shame because,

607
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 1: like you said, it's one of my favorite albums of

608
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: there's two. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like the Kinks

609
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,040
Speaker 1: went out of their way to like be irrelevant at time,

610
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: like like, we're not going to address any of the

611
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: social unrest that's going on. We're not even gonna really

612
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: make a record that like addresses anything that is contemporary,

613
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: Like we're looking backward. We're looking like at the history

614
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: of our country and also at the double edged sword

615
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: of tradition, you know, like where I think a lot

616
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 1: of bands at that time, you know, they were looking

617
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: at the conventions of society in a very skeptical way,

618
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: and Ray Davies could do that, but he also I

619
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: think had more affection for that than a lot of

620
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 1: other British rockers at the time, which again just put

621
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: him out of step with what was going on in

622
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: the culture. Yeah, I was thinking of if the Beatles

623
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,719
Speaker 1: went from releasing Rubber Soul to them an album that

624
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: was like strictly when I'm sixty four, Martha my dear

625
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: type stuff. You know that every gonna be like wait, what,

626
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: what what are you doing? Like Okay, you get one

627
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: of these per album, but like the whole thing, like

628
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: you're you're way too into this. Yeah, Like they just

629
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: leave helter skelter and Revolution on the cutting room floor

630
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: and we're just going to do the old timing soft

631
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: shoe ballads. Yeah, that totally. Yeah, So the Kings were

632
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: out of step, and I feel like that is what

633
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: led to Dave Davies pursuing a solo career. I mean,

634
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 1: is that safe to say that, Like maybe there was

635
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: a sense that the Kinks were on their way out,

636
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: so then Dave was going to try to step out

637
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: on his own. And because he was like the young

638
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: guitar player, he was like pretty cute, it seemed like

639
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: maybe like he could position himself to be a star

640
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: in his own. Ray was really out of commission for

641
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: a while. I think this was around the time when

642
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: he had another breakdown at his home where he literally

643
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: like walked several miles from a suburban home into London,

644
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: like just on foot, very like Peter Green style. I

645
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: think it was a similar story with him where he

646
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: he liked went to his PR person and like threatened

647
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: him and and ended up being like sent off to

648
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: a to a facility somewhere to like and sedated. Yeah.

649
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: He Ray was really going through a tough time right now,

650
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 1: so Dave probably thought, you know what I'm gonna I'm

651
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: gonna distansce myself a bit and try to like at

652
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: least keep my musical career afloat, and he did very well.

653
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: His song Death of a Clown, which was co written

654
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: with Ray and included on I think it was on

655
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: something Else by the Kinks, went to number three in

656
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: London and I think sixty seven, so you know, not

657
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: too shabby. Also amazing song, one of my favorite Kinks songs.

658
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: This is the thing about Dave Davies is that, like

659
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: he's not a prolific songwriter, but many of his songs

660
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: are like among are among my favorite Kinks songs, like

661
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: death of a Clown, which again you know is co

662
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: written by Ray, so he deserves some credit for that

663
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: as well. But like that's like a top five Kink

664
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: song for me, and I think of the song Strangers

665
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: To from the Lola album um is definitely like in

666
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: my top five. So he is kind of like a

667
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: George Harrison figure a little bit in this band that

668
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: like you've got the dominant songwriter who is the acknowledge genius,

669
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: but like Dave was asserting himself too, But that seemed

670
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: like that was also always a challenge in the Kinks that,

671
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: like Ray was not gonna let Dave have like too

672
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 1: much material on a Kink's record. What do you think

673
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: of Susannah is Still Alive, which I think also did

674
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: really well too after Death of Ane. I think it

675
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: got to like number twenty or something. It's a pretty

676
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: good song. That's another a great song. I love that

677
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: song too. I mean, like the thing with Dave Davies

678
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: is that I think he's like he has a similar

679
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,479
Speaker 1: sensibility to his brother, but it's always just like a

680
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 1: little more raw. Like his voice I think is like

681
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: such a great instrument where it has a wildness to

682
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: it. It It minds me again. I keep comparing them to

683
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: other British rock bands, but like Dave as a lead

684
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: vocalist and especially as a harmony vocalist, it reminds me

685
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: of like Keith Richards, where it's like sometimes he's harmonizing

686
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: with Ray and sometimes he's kind of like shouting like

687
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: over over Ray. But it's such like a high, lonesome

688
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 1: emotional quality to it, and it always draws me in

689
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: and I will say that, you know, I mean, I

690
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: think he was born to be a sideman to his brother. Ultimately,

691
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: really yeah, I do things. I mean, Ray is like

692
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 1: one of the greatest songwriters ever. Uh, certainly in British rock.

693
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 1: What Dave brought to his songs and what he brought

694
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: to King's records, like with his own songs, like these

695
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: songs that could be kind of a contrast to what

696
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 1: Ray was doing. It was such a great sort of

697
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: pinch of like garlic, you know in the stew of

698
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 1: of of the Kinks. Uh. I mean it really wasn't valuable.

699
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: I always got the impression, I mean, maybe I just

700
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: have Nolan Liam on the brain, but personality wise, Dave

701
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: felt like more of a of a lead vocalist to me,

702
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,479
Speaker 1: and I was always kind of surprised that he wasn't.

703
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I always thought he had the talent, and

704
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,919
Speaker 1: I could see just Ray more personality kind of wanting

705
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: to be the rhythm guitarist in the back who was

706
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 1: the one making all these great songs like nol. But yeah,

707
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: that that always surprised me that they went that way.

708
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: I mean you can see like once the Kinks moved

709
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: into the seventies that Ray becomes like much more demonstrative,

710
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: where at times like if you watch if you go

711
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: on YouTube and you see like Kinks performances from the

712
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two seventy three. It's almost like Ray is

713
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: trying to be like Mick Jagger a little bit. Like

714
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: there was a period I think where he stopped playing

715
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: guitar on stage a lot, and he would kind of

716
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: prance around and you know, be more of a front man.

717
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: I also wonder how much that had to do with

718
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: his life falling apart a little bit around that time.

719
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: I mean, because you know, like like by seventy three,

720
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: his marriage I think had ended, and it seems like

721
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: he was really hitting like the Booze and the Pills

722
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: pretty hard at that time. Yeah, which is a shame

723
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: because the albums they released from like sixty eight to

724
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 1: seventy three or actually some of my favorites. Actually Arthur

725
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: is I think my favorite Kinks record. I just think

726
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: that's an amazing as a concept of songs start to

727
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: finish just are unbelievable. What do you think of Arthur? Yeah,

728
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: that's like probably my favorite too. Like Arthur, you know,

729
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: it either be Arthur, like Lola is awesome, Muswell Hillbillies,

730
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean, Village Green is great. I mean Arthur on

731
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: most days is my favorite, but like there's other days

732
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 1: where I could pick any one of those other records.

733
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: But you're right. I mean it came out of a

734
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of pain for him, and he had a

735
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 1: major collapse on stage right like in the middle of

736
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: a show. Yeah, in nineteen seventy three. It was and uh,

737
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think that's like when his wife

738
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: left him, like like he was married at two daughter

739
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: as his wife left, And I mean it's like a

740
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: very dramatic type thing. I mean, didn't he like kiss

741
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: his brother in the cheek or something and say like

742
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: thank you all for everything you've done, but I'm but

743
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: I'm done. I mean it's almost sort of like like

744
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: a suicide note type breakup. I mean, it's very alarming

745
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: when it happened. Oh yeah, I think that was the

746
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: same night that he went home and took a bottle

747
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 1: of pills and went to his girlfriend and basically told

748
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: her what he'd done. And he was rushed to a

749
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: London hospital and when he arrived, he declared, I'm Ray

750
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: Davies and I'm dying before collapsing in the lobby elements

751
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: of drama there. You're not wrong, I think years later

752
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 1: he tried to explain it away being like, you know what,

753
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: I was having a really hard time. Dr gave me

754
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: these pills and said take one of these when you

755
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: feel bad, and I was feeling bad a lot. But

756
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: I think another time he basically admitted, like, yeah it

757
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 1: was it was a suicide attempt, and like, you know,

758
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: to his credit, like Dave stepped up and he was

759
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,800
Speaker 1: I think pretty supportive him him at this time. I

760
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: mean he took him to Denmark, I think, like on

761
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: a vacation and uh, I think he was like playing

762
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 1: him chuck Berry songs or maybe they were jamming on

763
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,439
Speaker 1: chuck Berry songs together. But he's basically trying to cheer

764
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: his brother up, and I feel like that worked for

765
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: him at that time. Yeah, I definitely raised his spirits.

766
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: But I personally liked to almost pretend that the band

767
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: broke up after everybody's in show biz because I all

768
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: the mid seventies stuff I I just I can't deal with.

769
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: I mean, the good news was Race survived, his spirit

770
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: was restored. The bad news is the stuff he released

771
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: for I think the rest of the seventies was terrible.

772
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: I read somebody's quote once said Gray David spent the

773
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 1: sixties building reputation as a great songwriter and the seventies

774
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: destroying that reputation. And I don't know, I just when

775
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 1: was the last time you listen to Preservation Act one

776
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: or Act two? Like? Well, I have to say that

777
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 1: I recently made a playlist of fourteen songs taken from

778
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: those two albums, and with the idea being that like, Okay,

779
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be the A and R guy for the Kinks,

780
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: that the one that they didn't have in the seventies.

781
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, like, you can't put these two albums out,

782
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna take the best songs and make one

783
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: record and we're not going to care about this storyline,

784
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: you know, the storyline of Preservation Act which I don't

785
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: even want to get into. It's it's sort of like

786
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: the music Man, isn't it. Isn't it Like a guy

787
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: comes into a town and he's like conning them blah

788
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: blah blah. Anyway, but he's just like darl Quinn too,

789
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: isn't he. There's like something really tragic outfit that he

790
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 1: were on stage. Yeah, yeah, he looks like the Riddler

791
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: at times, But this thing is really it doesn't really work.

792
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,479
Speaker 1: But like the album I made from those two albums,

793
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 1: I think is actually quite good. I mean, there's songs

794
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: on there like Sweet Genevieve, which is a great song. Um,

795
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of like really good songs from that

796
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: from that era. But you're right, I mean, I think

797
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: the problem was that instead of just focusing on great songs,

798
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: he got distracted with these big concepts like albums like

799
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: Sleepwalker and Misfits, like where the Kinks were taking cues

800
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: from the punk bands that they inspired originally, you know,

801
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: like they were making records that were kind of in

802
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: the style of like The Am or The Clash a

803
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: little bit, although with more of like an arena rock

804
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: type sheme to it. So I think those albums are

805
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: actually pretty good. I'd recommend those. But you're right, I mean,

806
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: I think at this time it was more about the

807
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 1: Kinks legend, and a lot of that legend had to

808
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: do with Ray and Dave hating each other, and I

809
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 1: wondered too, Ray, now that he had access to America again,

810
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: was really trying to fight for sort of the the

811
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: global critical acclaim that he felt he'd been denied, with

812
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 1: stuff like Village Green and Arthur and stuff which you know,

813
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: we're not massive hits. I mean lowlow Side. I don't

814
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: really think that they reached their mid sixties commercial peak

815
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: again until the MTV are right. So I could see

816
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: him just like really gunning for almost like Brian Wilson level,

817
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: like no, I'm gonna make a statement, and no one

818
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: was interested. So then when they would do albums like

819
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: Low Budget or Misfits or Sleepwalker, that was when they

820
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: were signed with Clive Davis on Arista, and I can

821
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: imagine Clive Davis was just like no, no, just he

822
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: I could see him being really instrumental and just telling

823
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,280
Speaker 1: them that give me a hit. I don't care about

824
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: this potential stuff, just give me a hit. And it worked.

825
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,919
Speaker 1: It worked, and I think the Kinks, you know, into

826
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: the late seventies into the eighties, like we're a pretty

827
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: popular live act. Like they could go out and they

828
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: could perform, and they would do these sort of like

829
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 1: souped up versions of like their old sixties hits where

830
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,439
Speaker 1: they kind of sound like night Ranger playing like there's

831
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: sixties hits. You know, it's just like kind of a

832
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 1: mixed bag at times. But you know, with all the

833
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: tension that was going on, between Ryan Dave and again

834
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 1: I think that um as the Kinks became this legacy

835
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: act essentially, and this this band that you would go

836
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: see because of their iconic status and maybe not so

837
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: much for like the records that they were putting out

838
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: at that particular time. So much of that was like

839
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 1: about the relationship between Ryan Dave and like the continued

840
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: tension that would exist. And it's interesting like as they

841
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 1: got older, how they would comment on that and their music,

842
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: Like there's that song hatred uh from like one of

843
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:52,960
Speaker 1: their like their last studio records, which is Phobia from

844
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 1: Have you heard that song? Oh my god, I thought

845
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: it was it was satire, but it also there's so

846
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: many specifics in are you could tell is definitely born

847
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: from something. Yeah, this this is lyric And there you go.

848
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: You keep on accusing me of making your life misery.

849
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: But if that's not abusing me, what Isn't you want

850
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: to be my friend? Well it's too late. My love

851
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: for you has turned to hate. And then so the

852
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 1: finest lyricists of his generation. Yeah, I know, it's a

853
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,319
Speaker 1: little Kinks by numbers, you know, And again it just

854
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: seems like, Okay, our relationship has been a problem in

855
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: this band for a long time. But now like we're

856
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: gonna have sort of like a winking acknowledgement of it.

857
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: We're gonna, you know, make it work for us that

858
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: we know, we're gonna play it up almost like again

859
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: like a pro wrestling aspect, which I think happened. I mean,

860
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: we talked about that in our our Liam and Noel

861
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: Gallagher episode that I think especially for Liam Gallagher and

862
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: in recent years he has been playing up that the

863
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: pro wrestling aspect of his tension with his brother, that

864
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: like there's a performative aspect to it where it's like, well,

865
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 1: this is what people expect, so like we we have

866
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: to acknowledge it, we have to have fun with it.

867
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: Like there's this clip on YouTube of Ray and Dave

868
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: giving an interview. I think it's like on Entertainment Tonight

869
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: around Yeah, And like I think I don't know if

870
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,439
Speaker 1: they're promoting Phobia or some other Kink's record, but like,

871
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 1: isn't there a clip like we're like Ray starts like

872
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: choking Dave or is it the around? I think it was.

873
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: I think it was Ray choking Dave. Yeah, And it's

874
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 1: and I think that I think it was for phobia,

875
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: and I think that they're talking about hatred, which you know,

876
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: really like you said, I think it was maybe more

877
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: of a pro wrestling move, but I don't know. Dave

878
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,840
Speaker 1: seems genuinely annoyed. He's like every time he starts to

879
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: try to speak, Ray kind of like cuts him off.

880
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: And it's funny for a bit, but Ray then just

881
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: pushes a little too far and Dave starts getting like

882
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: it seems real. It's it's definitely a fun watch though. Yeah.

883
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: So there's again this aspect where it's performative, but it's

884
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: also not performative like they're playing it up in the media.

885
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: But they also don't really like each other, and it

886
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: really comes to a head. I guess what, Like I mean,

887
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: that's when they broke up. Yeah, I mean Phobia I

888
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: think added as high as like a hundred and sixty

889
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 1: six for one week on the charts and step so commercially,

890
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: they were not at their peak, and so there wasn't

891
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 1: a huge amount of reason to keep the pan together

892
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 1: unless they actually liked being together, which it's pretty clear

893
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: at this point they did not. And kind of the

894
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: final straw for Dave was was his own birthday party. Ray. Uh,

895
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: he wanted to throw himself a birthday party. I guess

896
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 1: he didn't have the money, so Ray did it for him,

897
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: and he threw this big party. And then Ray got

898
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: up on the table and gave a toast was supposed

899
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: to be for Dave, but just wound up Ray praising himself,

900
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: saying what a great guy was, and then ending the

901
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: toast by stomping on the cake, the birthday cake for

902
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: his brother, which echoes of of the wedding, maybe echoes

903
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: of Ray's wedding where where Dave got drunk and didn't

904
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 1: give a speech. Maybe I don't know. I thought that

905
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: was a nice way to book end their just functional

906
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: Kink's career. But um, so you think he was playing

907
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: a long game with that. You think he was like

908
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: waiting for like another occasion where he could just like, Okay,

909
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: you ruin my wedding, So I'm gonna I'm gonna wait

910
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: twenty years or I guess it was third two years.

911
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna pay for this cake and then I'm gonna

912
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 1: stomp on it. Like that's how petty I am about you.

913
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't put it past them. I mean,

914
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: there is this deep dislike. But yeah, I think when

915
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: you stomp on your brother's birthday cake, your band is

916
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,919
Speaker 1: probably done. At that point. It's probably time to pack

917
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: it in. Yeah, that's a new I mean, for all

918
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: the feuds that we've talked about, I don't think there's

919
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: been a stomping on a birthday cake incident yet. I

920
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 1: think this is the first. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. We've

921
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: had shoe throwing, and we've had you know, various you know,

922
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: fists being thrown and spittle being shot out of mouths,

923
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: but I never had a cake stomping. So thank you

924
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: Ryan Dave for that. So the band is done after that.

925
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: And what's interesting to me because like, again, this is

926
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: the caink so there's never any shortage of drama. So

927
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 1: they both have like these pretty terrible health scares. In

928
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:54,440
Speaker 1: the odds, I think they both occurred in two thousand four,

929
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: and the first was Dave like, didn't you have a stroke? Yeah,

930
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: he was leaving like a book signing or something, and

931
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: he got to have an elevator and all of a

932
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: sudden he just collapsed on the floor and they rushed

933
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 1: into a hospital and he'd had a stroke. So he

934
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: he sent home to recuperate, and Ray, to his credit,

935
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 1: goes to look after him, and it's going along really

936
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 1: well for a couple of weeks, and then, according to

937
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: Dave at least, Ray couldn't stand not being the center

938
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 1: of attention, so he started screaming, I'm in pain and

939
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: oh my god, I got this like huge pain in

940
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 1: my stomach. Something's going on. Take me to the hospital.

941
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: He got to the hospital. Doctors, there's nothing wrong with you, Ray, Davies, like,

942
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: you're this is in your head. So Dave thinks that

943
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: that he just can't stand to be the center of attention,

944
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,319
Speaker 1: which I enjoy that I don't know, psychosmatic pains. This

945
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: makes the other story like pretty incredible because like later

946
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: on A two thou four, Ray was actually like shot

947
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 1: during an attempted robbery in New Orleans. I think he

948
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: was like I think like his his girlfriend like like

949
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:53,479
Speaker 1: someone snatched her person. He like went after the thief

950
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: and then he got shot. So maybe that's just him

951
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 1: being a glory hawk again. You know, it's like this

952
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: is an opportunity he paid. It's ax episode, isn't it.

953
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: That's something from Curb. He like pays somebody to like

954
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 1: snatch somebody's purse so that so that he can like

955
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: tackle into the ground and look like a hero. Same thing.

956
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: So I mean, now we're at a point where, you know,

957
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,720
Speaker 1: they've had all this bad blood going on over the years,

958
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: but like it looks like they're gonna really do this reunion, right.

959
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,280
Speaker 1: I Mean the reason why I'm like a little unsure

960
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: is because, like the way that this was announced was

961
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: really weird. Oh so weird. I'd be like, Ray basically

962
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 1: said it in the middle of an interview, but like

963
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: it seems like he maybe wasn't supposed to say it.

964
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: I mean, who answers their cell phone in the middle

965
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: of a like a taped televised interview, So it almost

966
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: made me seem like he wanted to get the guy's attention.

967
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: It seemed a little to stage. So he's giving an

968
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 1: interview on I think BBC or something in his phone

969
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: rings and he's like kind of muttering into it, and

970
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: they stopped taping, and the interviewer was just kind of

971
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 1: killing time waiting for Ray to hang up. And then

972
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,279
Speaker 1: Ray said, all right, Mike see at the pub. Later

973
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: the interviewer say, wait, Mick, like Mick Avery, like the

974
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 1: drummer for your old band, The Kinks, that you haven't

975
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: played within twenty years. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're we're we're

976
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: going to the pub later. Oh that's interesting. Why Oh yeah,

977
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: we're gonna We're gonna get the Kinks back together. Wait

978
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 1: are you serious? Yeah? It was just really like shambolic,

979
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: like this is your big enough, Like you're doing it

980
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 1: like in between takes of a TV interview to promote

981
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: your new solo single. But yeah, I never understood why

982
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: he did it that way, if it was staged, or

983
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: if it was just a really poorly thought out announcement. Yeah,

984
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 1: it's like the worst press release of all time. You know,

985
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: I don't understand that. But but you know, I mean,

986
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: and of course, who knows when we're going to have

987
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: tours again at any rate, So that that, you know,

988
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: just the state of the world right now, it's hard

989
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: to know, you know, what will happen with this reunion.

990
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: You also don't want these guys commingually with with each other,

991
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, at least hopefully they'll be wearing masks, because

992
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: I would assume Brand Dave are both in the highly

993
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: susceptible to you know, infectious diseases type camp. Hopefully they'll

994
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 1: be all right, but you know, it would be great

995
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,839
Speaker 1: to see these guys playing together again. I also read too,

996
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw this, but like this

997
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: is a story from apparently like they live next door

998
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: to each other now in London. I didn't see that,

999
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: or at least they have like houses next to each other,

1000
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: so like, I don't know, like maybe it's not like

1001
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: their primary residents, but like some London tabloid took a

1002
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 1: photo of Ray and Dave like taking out their garbage

1003
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: together or something. I've not heard that. Wow, So you know,

1004
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: this could either be like the best thing in their

1005
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,720
Speaker 1: relationship or they could end up like burning each other's

1006
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: houses down. You know, who knows what'll happen, but hopefully

1007
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: it won't happen before these guys actually get back together.

1008
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: We're gonna take a quick break to get a word

1009
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: from our sponsor before we get to more rivals. So

1010
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: this is the part of the episode where we look

1011
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: at the pro side of each part of the rivalry.

1012
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: And let's start with Dave Davies. You know, I think

1013
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: we've talked about this already at out just his stature

1014
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 1: as an incredible guitar player. I think as a as

1015
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 1: a player who's been very influential in like punk and

1016
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: heavy metal, even if like Ray himself, has not always

1017
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 1: given his brother credit. I also think that he's like

1018
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 1: a pretty underrated songwriter. Like I said, like some of

1019
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,200
Speaker 1: my favorite Kink songs are by Dave, not questioning the

1020
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: primacy of of Ray Davies in the Kinks, but Dave,

1021
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: I think again, being like the George Harrison of this band. UM,

1022
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: I think always applied a really nice dash of his

1023
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: own voice to all the great Kinks records. UM. And again, ultimately,

1024
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 1: you know, you know, if we go back to what's

1025
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: at the heart of their conflict, it seems like they

1026
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 1: would argue about credit above anything else, and Ray not

1027
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 1: wanting to give Dave his props for what he contributed

1028
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 1: to the band. And I mean it seems like we

1029
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: both agree that like Dave has a point with that.

1030
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I think he's the soul of the band

1031
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:52,759
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. I see him as like how

1032
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 1: Dennis Wilson was the guy in the Beach Boys who

1033
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: actually served Dave was the one who was actually out

1034
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: in the scene that Ray was commenting on and kind

1035
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 1: of like feeding back the specifics of what was happening

1036
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: to him. I yeah, I always thought and even in

1037
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 1: the early photo shoots when they have the red hunting

1038
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: jackets and whips and all these kind of kinky things

1039
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: like that was Dave's idea. So I think that that

1040
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: so much of that in the band's image and soul

1041
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,880
Speaker 1: was from him. Like I said, I'm still so shocked

1042
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 1: that he wasn't a lead singer. I he really still

1043
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 1: seems like somebody that would have shown in that way.

1044
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 1: And although I guess the fact that he's still shown

1045
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: out just as kind of being a side guitar, I mean,

1046
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: he wasn't sside guitarist. He's Dave. Dave. He's one of

1047
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: the best guitarists ever. But like the fact that he

1048
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: was able to do so well not being a lead singer,

1049
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: I think is impressive. His guitar playing Jesus Christ. I mean,

1050
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: they're all these rumors about Jimmy Page actually playing some

1051
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 1: of the guitar solos on the early Kinks songs. It's

1052
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:48,320
Speaker 1: not true, but I love the story that Jimmy Page

1053
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: was apparently in the control room when they were playing Uh,

1054
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: Dave's guitar solo for All Day and All the Night back,

1055
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 1: and Jimmy just winced because he was like, what is that.

1056
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 1: That's not I do a guitar solo. But it's like

1057
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: it's like the ultimate garage band guitar solo. I feel

1058
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: like he made the template, like him and the Kingsman

1059
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: Louis Louis uh lay the template for like garage rock.

1060
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 1: I feel like, oh yeah, and like, look again, if

1061
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: we talk about punk rock, they tried to play like

1062
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: Dave Davis, not Jimmy Page, you know, and like that

1063
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: sort of like anti technique that he brought to the

1064
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: guitar again is so influential, I think, uh and you know,

1065
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,439
Speaker 1: anyone that just wanted to play gut level rock and roll,

1066
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: like those early Kinks songs are just so essential. Uh yeah,

1067
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: and Dave has a lot to do with that going

1068
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: to the pro race side. Look I think again, like

1069
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: I said, I think he's like one of the great

1070
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,399
Speaker 1: songwriters of of British rock. In a way, I feel

1071
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: like he's underrated now because you know, we we talked

1072
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 1: so much about you know, Lennon McCartney, Jagger Richards, you know,

1073
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 1: Pete Townsend, all the greats, all these people that had

1074
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: more commercial success and had a higher profile in America

1075
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 1: than The Kinks did. But if you look at Ray's

1076
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: best material and just like how much melody there's in

1077
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: those songs, and like how smart the lyrics are, I

1078
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: feel like Ray really is uncommonly gifted. And you know,

1079
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: we've made several comparisons to Oasis in this episode, but like,

1080
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:14,600
Speaker 1: to me, as much as I love Oasis and I

1081
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 1: love Noel Gallagher, he can't touch Ray Davies in terms

1082
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: of songwriting, especially like as a lyricist, Like as a lyricist,

1083
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: they're not even in the same ballpark. And I think

1084
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: when you factor in those songs and the fact that

1085
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: so many people have covered them and they translate so

1086
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 1: well to different places, and like how again, I feel

1087
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: like because Ray Davies wrote about things that were not

1088
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,720
Speaker 1: typical of the time, you know, he had to focus

1089
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: on England, he had to focus on sort of regular people.

1090
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 1: You know. It's just proven to be so influential for

1091
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 1: people that are looking I think, for something a little

1092
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:45,400
Speaker 1: bit different than like what you get from a traditional

1093
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: rock song. You know, as much as Dave I think

1094
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 1: contributed to the sound and the attitude of the Kinks.

1095
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: You know, at the heart of this band is the songs.

1096
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: And you've got to give Ray his credit for that.

1097
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,879
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, especially in America, I think he's

1098
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 1: way more into rated than he should be, and he

1099
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 1: gets so many props for his lyrics. But you're right

1100
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: as a melody maker, absolutely unparalleled. I mean, I can't

1101
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: believe we haven't mentioned Waterloo Sunset yet. I think one

1102
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: of the most gorgeous songs ever written, Like that's up

1103
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 1: there with God only knows for me in terms of

1104
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: like Days Davis beautiful, you know, you said Shank Rola

1105
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: before That's beautiful, you know this time tomorrow. I mean,

1106
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: there's so many songs you could mention, if nothing else,

1107
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: if he'd never written anything other than Model lo son Set,

1108
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: I think that Ray deserves his knighthood and all the

1109
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: praise that he's ever gotten since. I mean, that's just unbelievable.

1110
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: So when we look at these two guys together, you know,

1111
00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear that what made the Kings great,

1112
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: and what really makes any rock band great is a

1113
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 1: combination of songwriting and swagger, melody and mayhem and brains

1114
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 1: and balls, And I think Ray brought the former and

1115
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: Dave brought the ladder um. And also, you know, fighting

1116
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:56,720
Speaker 1: is such a big part of the Kinks story and

1117
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: as you know, miserable as it was for these guys

1118
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 1: probably to be around each other, it makes for a

1119
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 1: great rock band. I mean, we like that tension in bands.

1120
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: We like how that can create a lot of energy

1121
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: that translates in the music. And I think that spirit,

1122
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: that battling spirit um really gives these songs an edge

1123
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: that to this day makes them so powerful. Yeah, I mean,

1124
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: rock and rolls about so much aggression. I mean, you've

1125
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: got all the familial stuff that they're working out on

1126
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 1: stage and on the mic. You're right, it just kicks

1127
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 1: it up to such another level. And it's interesting too

1128
00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:28,280
Speaker 1: that for all the differences of opinion and arguments that

1129
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 1: that Ray and David had over the years, it doesn't

1130
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: seem like they've had very many musical differences in terms

1131
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: aside from credit. It seems like it was never like, no,

1132
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: it should go like this, No it should go like this,

1133
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 1: or I want more of my songs on there, which

1134
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 1: is interesting because you would think that there would be

1135
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,359
Speaker 1: more fights about that, like in terms of like you know,

1136
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: with the band or something like that, with songwriting, credits

1137
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,280
Speaker 1: and everything. But it's it's fast thing that really was personal.

1138
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 1: It was I think Dave would later say, you know,

1139
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: Raise a clever guy, an observer, very good at expressing

1140
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: himself in music, very articulate about other people's feelings, but

1141
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: he wasn't good at expressing his own feelings or telling

1142
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: you how much he cares about you. And that's I

1143
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 1: think the crux of what went on between them. Yeah, man,

1144
00:55:10,360 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: it's it's an old story in rock and roll, it's

1145
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: an old story in the world. I mean, you know,

1146
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 1: we we joked about Cane and Abel in our Oaitis episode.

1147
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: I mean, this is a very cane and an able

1148
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: app type story here um with with Ray and Dave.

1149
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: You know this idea again that like, you love this person,

1150
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 1: but you also feel like they're not giving you the

1151
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:31,080
Speaker 1: respect that you deserve. And uh, it never goes away.

1152
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: Even as you are almost eighty years old now, like

1153
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: both of these guys, I feel like there's probably still

1154
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,920
Speaker 1: some of that lingering between them. I just want you

1155
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: to Jordan that I respect what you bring to our show.

1156
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: I think you are a well respected man. Oh Stephen,

1157
00:55:46,719 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 1: thank you so much. I like to tech this opportunity

1158
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,919
Speaker 1: to say how much I care about you. Oh well,

1159
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 1: it's a sunny afternoon here on the Rivals podcast, So

1160
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,640
Speaker 1: thank you all for listening on a Waterloo sunset over

1161
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: on the lake right where I am. Thanks for listening

1162
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: to this episode. We will be back with more rivals

1163
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: and beefs and long simmering resentments next week. M Rivals

1164
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive producers

1165
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 1: are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are

1166
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: Taylor Chicogne and Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stat.

1167
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's run Talk and I'm Stephen Hyden. If you

1168
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 1: like what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review.

1169
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I

1170
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

1171
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 1: your favorite shows