1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: Joining us now as we widen the lens on this 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 2: whole story involving Nvidia export controls and on a greater 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: scale US China relations, is Nicholas Burns, the former US 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: Ambassador to China and the Biden administration professor at Harvard's 6 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: Belfast Center. Mister ambassador, welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: It's great to have you. It seems all roads lead 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: to China, or we're talking about in Nvidia or new 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 2: tariffs on India. So let's start where we're already talking, 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 2: and that's export controls in this idea of Nvidia opening 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: once again a new market in China. There's even reporting 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: today that in Nvidia is talking about a Blackwell chip 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 2: that might be available scaled down version for the China market. 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: But there's still no deal and from what we understand, 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: no licenses to begin reselling these AI chips in China. 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: Will it happen? 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 3: This is going to be a consequential decision for the 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 3: Trump administration. US policy for several years now, for three years, 19 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 3: has been to deny to China those dual use exports 20 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 3: like advanced chips for Ai purposes that might then help 21 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 3: the People's Liberation Army to outcompete the United States military 22 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 3: in this ferocious competition for military technology power that's underway 23 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: and that will in many ways define the relationship. And 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: you saw when President Trump permitted the sale of the 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: Navidia and twenty chip, the Chinese government turned around and 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 3: said that they had problems even they might not give 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 3: authority to Chinese companies to purchase the chips because they 28 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 3: suspected these chips could be problematic for them. And so 29 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: now you have a second decision coming up by the 30 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: Trump administration. I certainly hope that the Trump administration will 31 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 3: be as tough minded as President Biden was deny this 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: technology to China, because it's far more important that the 33 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 3: United States weakened the People's Liberation Army and not strengthen 34 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: it by allowing the sale of an advanced chip. 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: Well, you know, if you talk to Jensen Wong about that, 36 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: he would tell you that that only strengthens Huawei and 37 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 2: in fact strengthens China's hand to sell this type of 38 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 2: technology if it were to catch up with the United 39 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 2: States to other countries. Do you believe that we're mortgaging 40 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: our national security by selling this technology. 41 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 3: Oh, I believe that there'd be a great injury to 42 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 3: our national security if we sold this technology. We certainly 43 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: realize that in twenty twenty two, when the Biden administration 44 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 3: could in place these stringent export controls, we understood this 45 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 3: would be problematic for those American ship producers exporting to China. 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 3: But there's something more important at stake here, the national 47 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 3: security of the United States, the balance of military power 48 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 3: between China and the United States. And while certainly the 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 3: Chinese have gone a long way towards innovating now around 50 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 3: these export controls, we were never under any illusion they 51 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 3: would stop progress technological progress in China, but we would 52 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 3: delay progress, and that has happened. So I think President 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 3: Biden's initial decision nearly three years ago now was correct, 54 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 3: and it's very important the Trump administration hold the line. 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: I think you'll hear that from many members of Congress 56 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: in both political parties. 57 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 2: By the way, yeah, you'll hear from them right here 58 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 2: on this program. I'm sure. As we consider what some 59 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: would describe as an economic cold war here, or at 60 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 2: least a trade war with China, the prospects of pushing 61 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: India closer to China has been on the table this 62 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: week with now a fifty percent tariff that the US 63 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 2: has put on India. Half of that was added as 64 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: punishment for India buying Russian oil. Ambassador I talked about 65 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: this last evening with Peter Navarro, the White House Senior 66 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: Counselor for Trade and Manufacturing. He made a lot of 67 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: news not only here but in Delhi today with his 68 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 2: answer what he said about India's Prime Minige Modi and 69 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: its culpability regarding Russia's war in Ukraine. 70 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: Let's listen, everybody in America loses because of what India's doing. 71 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: The consumers and businesses and everything lose, and workers lose 72 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 1: because India's high tariffs costs as jobs and factories in 73 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: income and higher wages. And then the taxpayers lose because 74 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: we got a fun Mody's war. 75 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 2: Mody's War was the headline on the front page of 76 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: every major newspaper this morning in India, and it led 77 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,359 Speaker 2: all of their newscasts. When he said that last evening, 78 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 2: it was considered an insults and framed to be inaccurate. 79 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 2: What do you make of this rhetoric coming from the 80 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:39,559 Speaker 2: White House. 81 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 3: I think it's unfortunate. I also think it just doesn't 82 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 3: make a lot of sense. If you look at the 83 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 3: history of the US India relationship, you know, we have 84 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: this historic competition with China underway really for which of 85 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 3: US is going to be the strongest country in the 86 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 3: Indo Pacific and in the world in the future. India 87 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 3: has been now for twenty five years, one of the 88 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 3: key strategic partners of the United States. Every American president, 89 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 3: starting with President Bill Clinton, Democrat and Republican, has believed, 90 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 3: and this includes President Trump in his first term, that 91 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 3: we've got to get along with India, We've got to 92 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 3: strengthen our military partnership because that strengthens our ability to 93 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: leverage China and to make sure that China is hemmed 94 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 3: in in its territorial ambitions on the India China border, 95 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,559 Speaker 3: in the Himalayas, but also in places like the South 96 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 3: and East China Sea. So I understand that the Trump 97 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 3: administration believes in this policy of high terraffts. But when 98 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 3: you exact these high terriffs on India, Japan, South Korea, 99 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: the European Union, you're weakening our natural coalition of countries 100 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 3: that want to be with us in terms of going 101 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: up against the Chinese and limiting their power. But it's 102 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: difficult to do when you've got fifty percent American terrorists 103 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 3: on Indian products coming into the United States. Every country 104 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 3: has domestic politics, every leader just like that. As a 105 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 3: Trump today politics. 106 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: It's already happening. We're reporting that in March Beijing began 107 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: quiet outreach to India. President she wrote a letter to 108 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: test the waters on improving ties. I have less than 109 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: a minute, and I don't want to cut you off, ambassador, 110 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 2: but where does this end with this letter? 111 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,799 Speaker 3: Well, you know there's going to be an historic meeting 112 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 3: between President Hijin Ping and Prime Minister Modi on September 113 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 3: third in Beijing. And this is this is a step backwards, 114 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 3: a major step backwards for the United States, because we 115 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: had since the end of the nineties, long time ago, 116 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 3: we've established this true partnership with India, and now it's 117 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 3: at risk because of this misguided terrorists pop tariff policy 118 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: by the Trump administration. 119 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: There you have it from Nicholas Burns, the former US 120 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: ambassador to China and the Biden administration ambassador. Thank you 121 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 2: for your insights.