1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: I've never told you protection of iHeart Radio. For today's episode, 3 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: we wanted to start with a quick trigger warning. We 4 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: are going to be discussing sexual assaults, abuse, rape, and 5 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,120 Speaker 1: grooming because what we're talking about sort of an update 6 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: on what's going on in the world of me too 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: and how how much this continued conversation of sexual harassment 8 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: an uneven power dynamic used again control is still ongoing 9 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: and important and something we shouldn't forget about and we're 10 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: seeing it and so many different industries take place, So 11 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about some of that today and 12 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: also a lot of this is happening very quickly, so 13 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: just put a time stamp on this one. We are 14 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 1: recording on June, and I think I was seeing updates 15 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: like right before we came in, So just just to 16 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: put that out there right as um, you and I 17 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,559 Speaker 1: are doing this. I know I'm in the last minute. 18 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. We need to talk about this and 19 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: this and this, and we're definitely not going to cover 20 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: the entirety of everything that's happening, um, because I guess 21 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: we could include that. We're going to talk a little bit, 22 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: not necessarily about cancel culture, but holding people accountable and 23 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: how social media is helping us to do that. Yes, yes, 24 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: um yeah. And for the last several days we've been 25 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: seeing a lot of different young women coming out and 26 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: talking about being deemed again social media by celebrities. Are 27 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: being contacted through social media by different celebrities, specifically comedian 28 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: Chris Dahlia and actor ends All l Gorge. Uh. The 29 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: conversation has shown a disturbing pattern of men using their 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: fame as a way to meet up with young fans 31 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: and eliciting sex or at least sex s e x 32 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: T S. I can't say the tea very well, um 33 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: for both men's abuse of power has been a point 34 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: of conversation on the bigger again disturbing picture of grooming 35 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: young women. And when I say young women, they ranged 36 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: from fourteen to eighteen. Uh. And honestly, this could be 37 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: a whole other conversation of what do we consider an 38 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: adult and who do we hold accountable for what during 39 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: one age. But according to her Twitter post, Simone Rossi 40 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: alleged at the age of sixteen, Chris, who by the way, 41 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: has portrayed a pedophile and sex predator in two different 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: TV series. Just with that out there, um exchanged emails, 43 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: eventually leading up for Dahlia to request a meet up, 44 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: which apparently did not occur for her. But since that post, 45 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: several women have come forward stating that Smilar interactions with him, 46 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: including requests for nude photos from underage girls. He's been 47 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 1: terminated from the majority of his gigs and even denounced 48 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: by female comedian Whitney Cummings, who also has a podcast 49 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: UM and She's often had him on her show as 50 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: a regular um and by the way, this has led 51 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 1: to many criticizing her because they're saying she was too 52 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: quick to judge and not willing to listen to both 53 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: sides of the story. She tweeted at one point essentially 54 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,359 Speaker 1: saying thanks to all the male comedians who called last 55 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: night or texted in support, and that was in sarcasm, 56 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: I believe um. So. Another young woman alleged that Angel 57 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: l Gored deemned her when she was seventeen, actually when 58 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: she was sixteen UM and he was twenty at the time. 59 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: According to the allegations, he not only solicited nudes from her, 60 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: but also eventually met up with her in person. And 61 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: had a sexual encounter the day she turned seventeen, uh, 62 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: which according to her was her first sexual encounter, UM 63 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: and sexual experience, and after denying the specifics of the encounter, 64 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: l Gored claimed he didn't know how the young girl felt, 65 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: so he wasn't going to put into her words how 66 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: she felt, but it was a relationship and that the 67 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: breakup was upsetting and that he should have not ignored her. 68 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: Apparently when they broke up, he just ghosted her. From 69 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: what I gather, that's what he's saying, and now is 70 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: seeing the results of that, so essentially gas lighting, saying 71 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: that she's got hurt feelings and accused him of something 72 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: unsanely I guess um And by the way, Dahlia also 73 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 1: denied the incident, stating the conversations were all out of 74 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:43,720 Speaker 1: context and denied any wrongdoing. Surprise, surprise yeah. In both 75 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: of these situations, both of the victims said that they 76 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: did receive a lot of harassment, but also received many 77 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: messages if not only support, but similar stories and incidents 78 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: from people who had experienced these same kind of things, 79 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: which has been a part of the Me too movement 80 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: and online community that is able to share their experiences 81 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: and just know that they aren't alone. But with the 82 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: situation again shows the continued abuse of power and fame 83 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:20,239 Speaker 1: in order to solicit sex or sexual favors. And again 84 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: again it is still hotly debated and the continued sexualization 85 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: of young women seems to be a point of conflict 86 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: as to whether it is the adult or the youth faults, 87 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: which is where a lot of the problem lies. So 88 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: it has continued to be a point of contention as 89 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: to who is in control when it comes to the 90 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: sexualization of young women between the r Kelly cases and 91 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: debate of Drake continuing to text young women UM and 92 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: the stories of different celebrities slipping into young fans d 93 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: m s which we've seen and continue to see. So 94 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: if we look at the YouTube start Shane Dawson UM. 95 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: He was recently called out for not all only those 96 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: sickening videos of talking to a fourteen year old about 97 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: her body sex administruation, but also performing a sexual act 98 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: to a cut out of a young actress Willows Smith, 99 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: and he, like many others, released an apology video without 100 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: having the conversation of the underlying issue of damage to 101 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: young women that this type of action produces. We discussed 102 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: UM last year, which was twenty nine Forever about grooming 103 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: and what exactly grooming is, but just as a reminder, 104 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: grooming is defined here as quote a method used by 105 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: offenders that involves building trust with a child and the 106 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: adults around a child in an effort to gain access 107 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: to and time alone with him or her. Extreme cases, 108 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: offenders may use threats and physical force to sexually assault 109 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: or abuse a child. In the case of l. Gore, 110 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: the victim specifies that he uses a manipulative tactic of 111 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: stating if she told anyone, he would ruin his career 112 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: and possibly his life. Tactics like this or gas lighting, 113 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: have been used for years on the fearmongering and manipulation 114 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: of power or in this case, their fame, and because 115 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: of the gas lighting, we still see the constant victim 116 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: blaming UM as well as the fact victims blame themselves, 117 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: which causes them to remain silent and not seek justice 118 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: or even worse treatment for these really harmful encounters. And 119 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: I would add the mere grooming can be traumatic in 120 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: itself even if an encounter or a violent sexual act 121 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: doesn't happen, This causes a trauma beyond just your every 122 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: day Hey, how are you so grooming in itself, we've 123 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: already talked about is a classification of harm and as 124 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: a type of trauma. Yeah, And I think that's a 125 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: good point to make because I've seen so many kind 126 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: of people say, well, just let's just say the way 127 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: it is, that's just part of it, as if that's 128 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: not harmful. I have seen so many people act as 129 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: if that it's just the way things are. That's almost 130 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: the boys will be boys mentality, and of course get 131 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: over it essentially, right, And this whole fame culture with 132 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: a and celebrity culture also teaches girls oftentimes and young 133 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: boys that they should be honored that they have been chosen. Again, 134 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: this is why I say this is such a manipulation 135 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: and just they don't even need to call talk about 136 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: harming someone, They don't even need to threaten someone, just 137 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: in itself being like being told you are special. So 138 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: therefore why would you complain? Right? Yeah, yeah, you're lucky 139 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: I'm giving you this attention, right, Yeah, And we also 140 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: wanted to look within the black community um during this time, 141 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: as the Black Lives Movement has been proceeding and has 142 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: gain ground there is also the much needed conversations of 143 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: who is supporting black women and why it's so hard 144 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 1: to have an open conversation when it comes to supporting 145 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: and believing black women. As we have previously discussed, Me 146 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: Too was started by Toronto Burke, a Black woman who 147 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: sought out a community to bring accountability as well as 148 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: healing for those who have been affected by sexual abuse 149 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: and violence and trauma, which meaning in the community continue 150 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: to ask why is it that when people say black 151 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: lives matter, why that sometimes seems to exclude Black women's lives. 152 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: One big conversation that has been happening is the rape 153 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: and murder of nineteen year old activists Tones Allow. Not 154 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: only has this brought about the attention of the needs 155 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: of protecting young women, but also the issue of the 156 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,199 Speaker 1: predatory behavior and victimization towards homeless use, which she at 157 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: that time had been saying that she was homeless um. 158 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: She even tweeted during this time as she was being 159 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: an activist in Tallahassee, Florida, speaking loudly and powerfully for 160 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: the fact that she wanted to protect black men. She 161 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: was a victim of rape and murder, and we saw 162 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: it played out in her Twitter, she actually tweeted out 163 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: that she had been and sexually accosted and be used 164 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: even before all of this went down. So it's just 165 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: kind of one of those heartbreaking moments of where is 166 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: the protection for this young women? What have we done well? 167 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: How have we you know, failed her? And I say 168 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: we as a as a whole and the controversial multi 169 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: layered conversation with me too within communities of color are 170 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: really lengthy and really long, and we definitely want to 171 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: and need to address it as a whole episode or 172 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: maybe even the series, because we see all of these 173 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: things unfolding, like this tragedy and again the loss of 174 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: many trans lives and specifically trans black women as recently 175 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 1: as a couple of days ago, and the fact of 176 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: the matter is that it's kind of downplayed in comparison 177 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: to now. Of course, it's an intersectional conversation within feminism 178 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: but also within black communities too, and how do we 179 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 1: best address this and how do we look at what's 180 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: happening and find justice for each and everyone of those victims. 181 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: But if we look at examples like the CEO of 182 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: Okay Player and Okay Africa and indeed music website Abiola Okay, 183 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: who has been accused of harassment and continue manipulation and 184 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: gas lighting within his company. We can see that the 185 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: meat two continues to help in getting accountability, if not 186 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: through the law, but through the organization and companies taking responsibility. 187 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: The women who worked underneath him have come out and 188 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: speaking truths and having the conversation out loud of how 189 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: can we be given justice A and be wholesoone accountable 190 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: who hold our lovelihoods in their hands? And I will 191 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: say quest Love who was also part of that organization 192 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: and a lot of the people from UM that company 193 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: quickly rectified the situation and did terminate him from the company. 194 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: But it kind of is that, Okay, this is hopeful, 195 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: But it took all of this, It took all of 196 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: these women having to out themselves and put themselves in 197 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: the line of harassment in order to get any type 198 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: of justice, in any kind of accountability UM in the 199 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: first place, which again does rederate why the hashtag me 200 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: too is so important in this whole nature, even though 201 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily it is and it isn't the cancel culture, 202 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: Why that can be beneficial and why that might be 203 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: the only form of justice that we see today. Yeah, 204 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: and we're gonna come back to that at the end 205 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: because it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. 206 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 1: But something else I've been thinking about a lot lately 207 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: and so a lot of people, it seems, is the 208 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 1: me too movement within video gaming. And we will get 209 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: into that, but first we're going to take a quick 210 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: break for a Worktimore sponsor and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. 211 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: So let's talk about me too in the gaming industry. 212 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: In our recent episode on women and online gaming during COVID, 213 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: we touched on the online harassment a lot of female 214 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: gamers and gamers of other marginalized groups face, and how 215 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: another piece of that whole thing lies in the often 216 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 1: toxic environment on the development side. And it's not like 217 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: this is a secret. Reports on rampant sexism at Riot Games, 218 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: allegations made about a one time top developer at Take two, 219 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: Interactive Softwares incorporated rock Star Games. Those cos big stars 220 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: when the news broke, But the industry hasn't really faced 221 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: the same large scale me too scrutiny that Hollywood did, 222 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: but that could be changing. As of June, dozens of 223 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: women have made allegations of sexual misconduct against several prominent 224 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: men in the gaming industry, including streamers. These allegations largely 225 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: were made over social media yes a lot like um 226 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: me Too. Allegations usually are and as of recording, streamer 227 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: Jessica Ritchie's list compiling all of the accusations she can find, 228 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: has two hundred and fourteen injuries. Renowned video game writer 229 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: Chris Avalon received four allegations and in response, one developer 230 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: into their relationship with him, and he left another project 231 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: that was in the middle of production. The incidents related 232 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: by the women are similar. Some took place at conventions 233 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: or events, and one woman attempting to get into the 234 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:31,119 Speaker 1: gaming industry, received sexually explicit messages from Avalon. Gaming companies 235 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: like Ubosoft Entertainment and Insomniac Games are often reportedly investigating 236 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: claims of sexual misconduct. Reporters in the game industry are 237 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: sharing stories of publications refusing to publish stories exposing valid 238 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: accusations out of fear of the pending lawsuit, or maybe 239 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: not having the money that they know they'll need for 240 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: the pending lawsuit. Twitch is facing its own reckoning. Amazon 241 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: dot COM's Twitch is the largest video game streaming platform, 242 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: and twich this whole thing is that it has democratized streaming. 243 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: If you have the hardware, you can do it. A 244 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: select few streamers a mass huge followings, and some of 245 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: these streamers are able to monetize, so there's an incentive 246 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: to break in to the industry this way. But as 247 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: the positions of power are held by men who do 248 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: the gatekeeping and there really isn't an HR to report to, 249 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: many women and other marginalized folks allege that they regularly 250 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: ignore toxic behavior on the platform and allow it to continue, 251 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: which are huge obstacles for finding success on this platform 252 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: or even just enjoying it without being harassed enough so 253 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: that some streamers were calling for a blackout Wednesday a 254 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: few weeks ago. As we record this hashtag Twitch blackout. 255 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: Because of the blackout, Twitch permanently removed some users with 256 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: allegations leveled against them. I think I just read that 257 00:15:54,760 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: Twitch band donald Trump. Twitch did band? Twitch did band Trump? 258 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: I I'm curious as to if Donald Trump was off. 259 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: I was kind of surprised too. I was like, I 260 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: don't understand what was the on Twitch or were people 261 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: who are fans or mega guys that had their own 262 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: platform dedicated to him. Is that what it was? I 263 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: have no idea. I'm kind of curious. It was just 264 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: sort of like CBR taking Donald Trumps not allowed. Okay, 265 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 1: it's kind of an odd do, but okay, cool, cool, cool. 266 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: I guess. One prominent case is a maid Dara Yani's, 267 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: the chief executive officer of the Online Performers Group, a 268 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: talent agency that represents many streamers, resigned after a woman 269 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: accused him of unwanted sexual behavior, as in asking hard 270 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: to be in the threesome with his wife. Interesting networking 271 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: is hugely important to succeed in this industry, and many 272 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: others detailed streamers with popular channels and or sponsorship deals 273 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: specifically targeting aspiring streamers with sexually predatory behavior and or 274 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: groomy young streams black and One such person was Sam Ernie, 275 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: a popular streamer who left the platform after multiple allegations, 276 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 1: posting in part quote, regardless of when any of what 277 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: you see is said to have happened, I want you 278 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 1: to believe the accusers. What is obvious is that this 279 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 1: behavior has gone on throughout my career and I directly 280 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: benefited sexually from it. While the people on the receiving 281 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: and were negatively impacted. Uh. And I have to say, 282 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: this is an interesting thing I've noticed through a lot 283 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: of the stories we talked about earlier and a lot 284 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: of these twitch stories, is several of the people who 285 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: are accused or like, I don't deny this behavior right 286 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: or the way you felt about it, but they still 287 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: get a lawyer and like, don't I guess admit that 288 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: they did something that could get them in more trouble. 289 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's just interesting. It's sort of like 290 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: a halfway, like, yes, I acknowledge that I probably hurt 291 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 1: your feelings and if you read it in a way 292 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: that I didn't read it. But is that kind of 293 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,399 Speaker 1: that whole conversation we've had previously is a manipulative but 294 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: be they don't want to see themselves in bad light, 295 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,639 Speaker 1: and so they talked themselves into this conversation. And yes, 296 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 1: there is a lot to be said about perceptions and 297 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: how one may have perceived the situation. But however, when 298 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: you really you have the moment to take a chance 299 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: to listen to the different size, you have to have 300 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: put in account the power play. Again, that way we've 301 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: talked about and why that dynamic is so dangerous in 302 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: many ways. Right. Yeah, So as part of all this, 303 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: all these allegations that have come out, Twitch has promised 304 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: to take further actions to combat hate and sexism on 305 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,239 Speaker 1: their platform, though they've been pretty vague about specifics. One 306 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: thing they have said is they do not intend to 307 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: vet streamers at this time. Employees on the inside say 308 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: that fire to this public outcry, allegations were brought up 309 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: and dismissed at internal all hands meetings. The world of 310 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: es force is undergoing its own wave of me to allegations, 311 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: and some of this is directly related to these Twitch accusations, 312 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: But that is another conversation that is happening as we speak, 313 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: as we record, And so many women have reacted to this. 314 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,439 Speaker 1: Who's not in shock but with yes, uh, my feelings 315 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 1: are validated. I knew this was true. So many women 316 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: have stories about how they've cut that drinking or stopped 317 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: completely at events, at gaming events, specifically because they've been 318 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: warned what could happen? Are it has happened to them before. 319 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: So many women have plans of texting a friend after 320 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: a set period of leaving being an event after a 321 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: set period of time, and so many women watch out 322 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: for the newman, youngest women at these events, and it's 323 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: just sometimes it blows my mind how much we do. 324 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: That just shows how unsafe we are and how not 325 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: valued we are. We just doing It's just sort of 326 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: like second nature, I think for you and I were like, yeah, 327 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: of course, this is what you would do. This is 328 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: exactly what you do. This is how you keep yourself safe. 329 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: And this is what is a rate like even if 330 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: it's a single day, if it's a date, your first day, 331 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: we have a whole plan. Yeah, yeah, and you'd share 332 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: it with friends, and it's just understood I could get murdered, rape, 333 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: and that's the life the world we live. I mean, 334 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: even just taking lifts, I'm like, this is the picture 335 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: of my driver, just in case I disappear, and this 336 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: is what I'm supposed to know. It is a common 337 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: thing for women in general, so to see this, especially 338 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 1: when it's an industry that's dominated by men. And I 339 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,119 Speaker 1: will say, when I was in the law enforcement side, 340 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: and even though I'm not law enforcement, we had a 341 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: small portion of our my work that had to be 342 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: under that as well. Whether it's we talked about gang activity, 343 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 1: or whatever. I was very, very hyper aware of the 344 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: fact that it was a very male dominated field, and 345 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: therefore I had to be even more so cautious. And 346 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: you talked about that just in gaming and trying to 347 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: be overly cautious to hide your gender. Mm hmm, yeah, 348 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: and that's sort of I think I was like eleven 349 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: when I learned that lesson um, which is wild and 350 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: very sad. Uh. And for a lot of reasons, all 351 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: of this that's happening right now is a big deal 352 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: for the gaming industry. Half of gamers or women. I 353 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 1: know you've said it before, I'll say it again because 354 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: people still seem shocked by that half of all gamers 355 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: or women that that all dude thing, that that perception 356 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: people have is left over from companies specifically targeting their 357 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: advertising two young boys with money and a lot of 358 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: popular games are hyper masculinized, leading to perception that is 359 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: still a hyper masculinized space that allows for rampant microaggressions 360 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: that are just dismissed. Again, that's the way it is. 361 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: Suck it up. If you to be in this gaming world, 362 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: we're kind enough to let you in, and then you're 363 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: going to have to deal with it. Um. And even 364 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: when it comes to things like in Cells, were just 365 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: as women expected to tolerate that. Um. But it's again 366 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: like blows my mind up, people like, yeah, I just 367 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: deal with it. That's such a big deterrent that turns 368 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: away so many people. I mean, we definitely had that 369 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: episode of in Cells, and I had people worried about it, 370 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: telling me not to do it. I WoT that we 371 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 1: were going to be docs and all these things, and 372 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't because I'm not in that 373 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: world necessarily. I know it exists, but because I've never 374 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: been part of the gaming world, I've not seen it 375 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: into that level and how territorial it really is. But yeah, 376 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: it's yeah, that was one of the things I'm like, well, 377 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: I definitely don't want to be a part of it now. 378 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: And that's the sad thing that's it is. So gaming 379 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: obviously is a big business, like one hundred and fifty 380 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: billion a year big and obviously you would think we 381 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: should be striving for safe, welcoming environments. Um. And this 382 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: is a part of a larger conversation about creating those 383 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: spaces everywhere, but the world of gaming has been particularly resistant. 384 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: It's also yet another case of the responsibility for change 385 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: being placed on women and other marginalized community. Sharing their 386 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: painful stories with the threat of retribution and harassment to 387 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: enact change and quarantine has sparked several renewed ways of 388 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: social activism. And I will say part of this is 389 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: because of the Black Lives Movement. It has pushed forward 390 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: with seeking justice and kind of how we talked about 391 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: with women who organized that if had not been for 392 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: black activists, this would not be at the forefront either. Yeah. Yeah, 393 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: And I just saw an article before we came in 394 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: about me too and professional wrestling with the hashtag speaking 395 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: out and all that has come out of that. Um 396 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: so we could do me too on pretty much every industry, sport, hobby. Right. 397 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: There's no shortage of stuff to talk about here. And 398 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: something that's been on my mind lately is I had 399 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: sort of a hopeless day a couple of weeks ago 400 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: and I just thought, well, has me to accomplished anything 401 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: like what as it accomplished? And I tried to Google 402 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: search and there wasn't that much out there that was 403 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: sort of an overview. There were more like me too. 404 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: In seventeen what happened or me too in and so 405 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about I feel like the conversation, Like 406 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: you said, Samantha, some companies are taking steps um allowing 407 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: other women to speak out if they want to, UM, 408 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: giving us a better scope of the numbers. I've definitely 409 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 1: had a lot of male friends. I sort of have 410 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: a reckoning realization of oh, okay, I didn't realize it 411 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: was this common, right. I think it definitely has opened 412 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: up to having the Okay, this is what you see, 413 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: but this is what we see the female male perspective, 414 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,440 Speaker 1: and then just talking about why the conversations and our 415 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: thought processes are different, because that danger is safe mentality 416 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: that we have to have at all times. And and 417 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: and as we know, things have been happening, whether we 418 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: don't necessarily see the overarching this can be a historical context. 419 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: We're gonna look back in twenty years and this is 420 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: what happened. But you know, more news and more allegations 421 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: are coming forward at this time, and it looks like 422 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: Ron Jeremy, who is in the porn industry, has been 423 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: charged officially with twenty five different Council sexual mixic conduct charges. 424 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: And then Danny Masterson, who was a part of the 425 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: hashtag me to call out UM has actually been charged 426 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,719 Speaker 1: with three counts of rape. Of course, both pleaded uh 427 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: not guilty. We'll see what happens, UM. And we know 428 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 1: that Harvey Weinstein is finally answering for some of his stuff, 429 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 1: not all of it, but some is better than none, 430 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: I guess. Unfortunately, is how we have to say it. 431 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: And though it has been around in politics, it doesn't 432 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: seem to be affecting those people as much. I want 433 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: to hold it like that, but it left the very 434 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: least we are talking about it. Yeah, I agree, I agree. 435 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: These are really important conversations to have and I did 436 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: want to include in here. There has been this whole 437 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,159 Speaker 1: false accusations trend which I probably don't have to describe 438 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: to anybody, but it is what it sounds like where 439 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: people are saying all because there is this wave of accusations. 440 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: It's a trend, right, and people are just sort of 441 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: like buying in and lying on the trend. And the 442 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: the amount of detective works some Internet's lose claimed to 443 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: put in um to proving that these are mostly women 444 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: or young girls just trying to get a moment of fame. UM. 445 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: And even before we came in here, I was watching 446 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: a video about I was looking for videos of Chris 447 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: Avalon and the third result was like an hour long 448 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: video about how terrible the state of things are that 449 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: he is getting accused and had to leave this work. 450 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 1: And so that's still a conversation to be had as well, right, 451 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: And I know with the fact that when we were 452 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 1: talking about the two celebrities comedian and the actor, UM, 453 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: someone went out of their way to make similar false 454 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 1: accusations two stars that were beloved I think Riverdale stars, 455 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: just to prove a point and say, see how easy 456 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: it was for me to make the story up. UM 457 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: trying to discredit other witnesses. But if and as I 458 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 1: was trying to research it myself, when I went to 459 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: go and look at the tweets that were telling their stories, 460 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: they've been deleted. These women have left the platform because 461 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: they have been so continually harassed. UM. I am baffled 462 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: by the amount of people who say they are just 463 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: trying to seek attention because they don't understand what type 464 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: of attention is happening. And it's complete. Bullett put it 465 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: out there that people think this is a way of 466 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: someone getting famous, because more often than not. Their names 467 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: get forgotten, but their incidents are like still in conversation, 468 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: and that's problematic in itself. Yes, yes, so that is 469 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: another episode. We could come back to another conversation to 470 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: be had um. In the meantime, we did have some 471 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: listener mail we wanted to read, but first we have 472 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: one more quick break for a word from our sponsor, 473 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So we did want 474 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: to include some listener mail because we have heard from 475 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 1: listeners about this very thing that we're talking about. When 476 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: it comes to the gaming industry, Laura wrote, I started 477 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: working in the game industry in I know a long 478 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: time ago, and I am going to hope that is 479 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: why I was treated so poorly, but I seriously doubt 480 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: much has changed during my time in the industry. I 481 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: was ignored, dismissed, and belittle to the point that I 482 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: eventually completely ceased to make suggestions and just did my 483 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: job without ever again trying to enhance the state of 484 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: game development at my company. To be fair, I was young, 485 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: as I had started working there at age six, but 486 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: a lot of my coworkers were also young, albeit all men, 487 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: and I do not think I was treated even remotely 488 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: similarly to any of them. It did not help that 489 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: I was, for a long time the only woman in 490 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: my division, and I was always the only one in 491 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 1: my department. My boss fell quote in love with me 492 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: and proceeded to tell me about it every night. For 493 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: a while, he had me working a semi second shift 494 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: of noon to eight p m. In order to train 495 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: under his guidance in the evenings five to eight p m. Later, 496 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: he moved me to a ten am the start time, 497 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: but still made it clear that he expected me to 498 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: stay late each night. It was during these evening times 499 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: that he would go on and on about how he 500 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: never had sex with his wife anymore did I mention 501 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: he was married with two daughters, and other inappropriate things. 502 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: He would tell me that he loved me. I tried 503 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: to laugh it off. I told him to watch Oprah, 504 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: since she daggled topics such as spouses who no longer 505 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: had sex on her show. Basically, I was scared and 506 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: nervous and told him anything I could to keep him 507 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: at bay for a while. I dated another manager at 508 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: the company who was my age and single. I didn't 509 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: really like him, but he liked me, so I dated 510 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: him to keep my manager at Bay. It worked, but 511 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: the relationship was awful. Eventually, I broke up with the 512 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: guy because we thought constantly and he kept trying to 513 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:41,719 Speaker 1: get me to marry him. After nine years, I went 514 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: to HR. I didn't make a reporter, even tell them 515 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: my name. I simply asked what the process was for 516 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: pursuing sexual harassment at the company. They kept trying to 517 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: get me to make a report, but I refused. Then 518 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: they laid me off. So yeah, that is the game industry. 519 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: I know a lot of other companies wouldn't even hire 520 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: young women because they weren't a good quote culture fit. 521 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: In other words, guys couldn't be overtly gross around them. 522 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: I thought that being super geeky would be enough to 523 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: earn me some respect in that industry. It was not. 524 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: I'd always hoped that the computers would be the great equalizer, 525 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,520 Speaker 1: but sadly tech is as toxic, if not more so, 526 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: than other industries. I hope someday the industry will change 527 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: and we will see that change reflected in our entertainment software. 528 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: Until then, I would recommend a regular tech company job 529 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: over the game industry any day. Oh damn. She was 530 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: an o G two. Yeah, Yeah, that's awful. So Louise wrote, 531 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of the show. I've been listening 532 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: for a few years now and i just listened to 533 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: your online gaming episode and thought i'd reach out. I'm 534 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: a woman working in the UK game industry as a producer. 535 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: I'm currently working at Rare on ce of Thieves. Part 536 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: of what attracted me to this job is where's commitment 537 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: to diversity and inclusion. Was a player of CEF the 538 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 1: before I joined the team, and it's one of the 539 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: few online games in which I haven't experienced harassment. I 540 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: do have to be a bit vague here because the 541 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: industry is small, but at previous companies of ex variance, 542 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: micro aggression and pushback when I've tried to explain why 543 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: things are problematic, I think this lack of female and 544 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: black and Indigenous people of color l g pt Q 545 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: plus perspective of being accepted and taking on board definitely 546 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: informs why games are made in a way that marginalizes 547 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: these groups and supports straight white men as a default audience, 548 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: fueling gatekeeping. I do think the industry is getting a 549 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 1: lot better, though there's much more push for the diversity 550 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: inclusion because audiences are tired of the outdated attitudes nice 551 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: and in terms of being harassed in games, one of 552 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: my friends has an amazing technique for dealing with trolls. 553 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: He asked them if they're okay and if they want 554 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: to talk about anything. It totally calms them down, and 555 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: normally there's something upsetting them, which is true, and their 556 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: default reaction is to lash out. Now, obviously it should 557 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: never be the duty of victims of harassment to comfort 558 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: the harassers. But I think there's a much bigger conversation 559 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: to have about why there's so many angry men out 560 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 1: there who don't have adequate emotional support or healthy outlets 561 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: for their anger. I don't think this is something video 562 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: game companies alone can solve either, but I think we 563 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: can just start looking at it as a systemic problem 564 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: rather than looking at singular incidents and blaming the individual 565 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: harassers were being bad. Now, I'm not condoning their actions 566 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: in any way, and individuals are responsible, but I don't 567 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: think this happens in a vacuum. Yeah, yeah, I agree. 568 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,480 Speaker 1: I think it just points to so many other systemic 569 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: problems we have we have to tackle um and that 570 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: responds to the troll. That reminds me Ben Bowlen, we 571 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: used to have a company policy that, Thank god it 572 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: is not around anymore, but you had to respond every 573 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: YouTube comment. Oh my god, it was awful. It's just 574 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: as bad as you can imagine and worse. Um And 575 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: Ben Bowling, who does He's on a lot of our 576 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: other podcasts on our network. Um. He When he would 577 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: respond to a trolley, you would say, I hope you 578 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: have a better day, which I appreciate it. I thought 579 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: that was solid. I always like to do it like 580 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: I had to do it for a while, and I 581 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: would just give the like sweetest as though I had 582 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: misinterpreted everything. They said, like, oh wow, look at that typo. 583 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: Let me correct that for you. Usually they didn't respond 584 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: once they realize, oh, a real person is actually here 585 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: in reading these. Yeah, but we did want to end 586 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: with a listener mail to show that it's not all bad. 587 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: Hannah wrote, thanks for this week's episode on women and 588 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,759 Speaker 1: online gaming during COVID nineteen, I, like so many others, 589 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: have spent lots of time with animal crossing during quarantine. 590 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: Since Annie likes island facts, my island is named Googles 591 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: the same town name I've been using since Animal Crossing 592 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: was released on GameCube, and I have all female residents 593 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: on my island except for two male cats, because cats 594 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: are welcome in my feminist utopia. Also my dip for 595 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: avoiding animal Crossing anxiety, don't look on social media other 596 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 1: people's islands. I know that if I went out and 597 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: look at all the awesome islands people have created, that 598 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: I would feel like mine is completely inferior. But I 599 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: love my little island and its chill, underdeveloped vibes. You 600 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: definitely should play, just don't compare yourself to what others 601 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,759 Speaker 1: are doing or if you're doing it right. I guess 602 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: that's pretty good life advice in general. Another way video 603 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: games have helped me during the pandemic is that I 604 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: started streaming my gameplay on Twitch, not Animal Crossing. Though 605 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: Google's is only for me, It's been a great opportunity 606 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: for me to showcase the offbeat types of simulation and 607 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: mystery games that I enjoy while staying in touch with 608 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: some friends and family who come to join me in 609 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,919 Speaker 1: the chat. I've also found that streaming is a great 610 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: way for me to combat my imposter syndrome, since I'm 611 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: just talking to a microphone by myself. I feel like 612 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: I've been able to be more my real self rather 613 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: than the buttoned up, anxious version of me that's always 614 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: seeking to please others. I know it sounds completely counterintuitive, 615 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: but streaming has been therapeutic for me, and it helped 616 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: me feel less shy. My friends and family are getting 617 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: to experience a more authentic, weird version of me than 618 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,280 Speaker 1: what I normally present, and hopefully I'll be more comfortable 619 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: being my real self when we're all back to seeing 620 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: each other face to face. I do worry that eventually 621 00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: I'll get trolls in my channel or viewers who will 622 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: want to man plaining things to me, but it hasn't 623 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: happened in the two months i've been streaming, yet I 624 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: feel like I'll be confident enough to deal with it 625 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: when if it does happen, since I've really found my 626 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: voice video games. Video games. Yeah, but see, that's the thing. 627 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,400 Speaker 1: That's a beautiful thing that we should be trying striving 628 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: to make for everyone. I love it. I love it, 629 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,439 Speaker 1: and your Animal Crossing Island sounds amazing, Google, So that's 630 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: a good name. It's excellent, and please keep those uh 631 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: messages coming in, keep sending us what's going on on 632 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: your island. We love it, We love it. You can 633 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media 634 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Instagram at stuff 635 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,399 Speaker 1: I Never Told You or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks, 636 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,759 Speaker 1: it's always sort of superproducer Andrew Howard, thank you, and 637 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You, 638 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: his production of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from my 639 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, It's the I Hear Radio app, Apple podcast, 640 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.