1 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: On this episode of Nutz World, I wanted to have 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: an honest conversation about the crisis happening at the southern border. 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: While it seems obvious the migrant surge was caused by 4 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: a change administrations in their policies, I wanted to look 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: deeper at the root causes of migration and the newly 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 1: emerging patterns, and I wanted to guess who has lived 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: and breathed these issues to help us understand this complex issue. 8 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: Over the years, I've done a lot of work with Gallop, 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: and at one point Jim Clifton, the head of Gallop, 10 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: suggested that I sit down and listened to Carlos Denton, 11 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: who's going to be our guest. He's the president of 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: CID Gallop based in Costa Rica, a role he's held 13 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: for forty four years. I found that he had such 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: a unique understanding and a remarkable perspective looking at the 15 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: entire process as it's evolved and why it's happening, that 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: his viewpoint would really be educational for all of us. So, Carlos, 17 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me. It's great to 18 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: be here, and I hope I could show some light 19 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: on the issue well I'm confident you. Oh, when you 20 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: and I talked privately about the migration crisis, you really 21 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: helped me understand various threads of the way it has evolved. 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 1: And I'm really pleased that you'd be willing to come 23 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: on to the podcast and share with our listeners some 24 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 1: of what I've learned from you. But let's start with 25 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: you from it. You've been extracting and analyzing what is 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: on the minds of Central Americans and what is happening 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: on the southern border for over forty years. I mean, 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: how did that relationship occur? And your whole understanding of 29 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: gallop of all the things that are going on. Well, 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: we've sided because of our research that one of the 31 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: ways to determine if a country is successful is if 32 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: the people that are born and brought up they're decided 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: to stay in their own country and develop their skills 34 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 1: and start businesses and raise children and families and so on. 35 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: And when you have a series of countries where anywhere 36 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: from twenty five to thirty five, when you ask them, 37 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: if you have the resources, how likely is that you 38 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: would leave the country and go somewhere else, and they 39 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: say it's very likely. And the place that they all 40 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: want to go as the United States. This becomes then 41 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: the sign that there's something sick inside the country. They're 42 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: not perceiving there are opportunities there. In fact, if anything, 43 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 1: there are risks, and this is now becoming exacerbated. The 44 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 1: pandemic hasn't helped things very much. But I wanted to 45 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: touch a couple of points, and one of them is that, 46 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: because you want me to talk about specific things, the 47 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: son of one of the cartels from Mexico went to 48 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: Harvard studied and got an MBA and came back and said, Dad, 49 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: we're missing a great opportunity down here in Mexico. These 50 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: people are coming and we're praying on them, but we're 51 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 1: not getting any money out of this situation. And they 52 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: have organized this cartel, and several of them a business 53 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,360 Speaker 1: setup which works more or less like this. If you're 54 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: a Honduran and you have a daughter who's fourteen or fifteen, 55 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: and you want this daughter, who send up to your 56 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: brother who lives in Washington, DC. For eighty five hundred dollars. 57 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: These people from the cartel will take her through up 58 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: to Washington and delivered to her uncle. In the matter 59 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: of seven or eight days. They've got it organized and 60 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: it's working highly efficient, and there are varying rates. There's 61 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: a rate where they just take you up to the 62 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: river and if you're a minor, and they put you 63 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: across the river and tell you go and report into 64 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 1: a border patrol agent or someone that represents the government. 65 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: And then you have the ones that will deliver children 66 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: at the Galleria mall in Houston or in any one 67 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: of another set of malls where they like to hand 68 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: off the kids. And there's a thriving business. We estimate 69 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: at five hundred people a day or trafficked into the 70 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: United States, not just from Central American countries, but of 71 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 1: course there's now the extra continentals which are getting to 72 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: show up on the border as well, and these are 73 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 1: also being trafficked from Somalia, Syria and these other countries. 74 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: And so there's a business going on. And what I 75 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: need to emphasize is that this business is hundreds of 76 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: millions of dollars or regenerated, and people are paying this off. 77 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: In some case they have the resources to pay it 78 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: from the country of origin. In others they come to 79 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: the United States and becomes indentured servants. A concept that 80 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: the United States understood in the colonial period, where you 81 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: have so many years to work for whoever finance you're 82 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: and you paid my working for a period of time 83 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: for somebody. So now what we have to do is 84 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: talk about what motivates the people to come up and 85 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: other than the fact that they don't see very many opportunities, 86 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: many of them are living a situation which is extremely 87 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: difficult in their countries, in countries with forty fifty percent unemployment, 88 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: with corruption of the head of government, with very little 89 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: possibility of obtaining financing for your small or micro business 90 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: that you might want to start. It comes down to 91 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: just simply, if you can't eat, you can't survive, you're 92 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: going to go somewhere else, or maybe you can. I 93 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: want to go back to the cartels just from it, 94 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: because as I understand it, they're well enough organized that 95 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: if you get to Seattle or Kansas City or wherever 96 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 1: you're going, you then finish paying off the cost of 97 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: getting there, and their reach is sufficient that they can 98 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: enforce that contract inside the US. Yes, thinking, I've read 99 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: a magazine story recently about some people that weren't to 100 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: Long Island and discovered that the cartel was able to 101 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: collect in Montauk Long Island, and so pretty much they've 102 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: better reach it anywhere where there's a drug distribution center 103 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: of people destribing drugs. They also can enforce these contracts, 104 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: so there's no way to welch out on them. Years ago, 105 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: George Tennant, when he was the head of the Central 106 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency, said to me that there's a dark world, 107 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: which is the underpinnings of all of our things that 108 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: work for US, so international trade, etc. In the dark 109 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: world head people trafficking weapons, trafficking, illegal transportation, illegal finance, 110 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: and that it was actually a dramatically bigger and richer 111 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: and more complicated system than we had any idea of. 112 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: Is that your experience, and in fact, this is sort 113 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: of a underlying alternative world, which, as you said, the 114 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: guy goes to Harvard, gets a good MBA degree, comes 115 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: home and says, dad, let's modernize the business, less risk, 116 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: and apparently they make enough money that it justifies not 117 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: moving cocaine or fentanyl. We estimate that there are between 118 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: five hundred and six hundred people a day trafficked into 119 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: the United States by these organizations, So you can multiply 120 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: that out by the number of days in a year, 121 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: and it comes to quite a bit, and each of 122 00:07:54,200 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: those represent at least seven thousand dollars an income to 123 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: the criminal groups. And I just share a story with you. 124 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: We have interviewed people who came back and one young 125 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: man talked about how he was trafficked and he was 126 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: outside of Rainosa, Mexico, which is right up there in 127 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: the border I believe with McCallum Texas. And he was 128 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: riding at a little bus and the bus was pulled 129 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 1: over and a guy from the cartel got on and said, 130 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: how's everybody. Are they treating you well? If your guide 131 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: isn't treating you well, let us know. We want to 132 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: make sure that you're comfortable and happy and recommend our services. 133 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: They're actually this is viewed to the business just for 134 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: the Zeta cartel, which handles the Gulf coast of Mexico 135 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: and up into that section. McCallum. This is a source 136 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 1: of four hundred million dollars a year in revenues. So 137 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: this has become an alternative to the drug business itself. 138 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: It's almost more important than the drug business for them. 139 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: There are also people, if I understand it, who traffick 140 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: people into prostitution, or they trafficked them into basically controlled environments. 141 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: We have one case in Virginia, I think it was 142 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: of two women who basically been kept as slaves. So 143 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: there's also surrounding the organized cartels, there's this really large 144 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: mass migration that has all sorts of other kind of 145 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: complexities attached to it. Yes, well, did five to six 146 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: hundred people in day that are coming into the United States? 147 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: Traffic is one number, and we're talking to probably double 148 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: that number daily now and maybe even more that are 149 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: just coming in on their own. And we need to 150 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: talk about their motivations. And one of the ones that 151 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: Jim Clifton and I talked about is if you imagine 152 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: a family, let's say three or four, where they have 153 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: an income of a thousand dollars a month, and they 154 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: have a couple of credit cards and they're up to 155 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: debt to the hilt the credit cards, and the motor 156 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: of their car goes out, or they have to pay 157 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 1: for an operation on a kid or something, and they 158 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: need money, and this happens over and over again, and 159 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: they then go to the cartel representatives who are in 160 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: all of the neighborhood grocery stores, and borrow four or 161 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, and the cartel is very happy to 162 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: do that. The only thing that says, look, we collect 163 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: you can't count on it. You may not be paying 164 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,479 Speaker 1: on your credit cards, but you'll be paying us for sure. 165 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: And the people who are desperate they take the deal. 166 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: And so the first time they miss a payment, the 167 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: collector comes around to the house and beats up the 168 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: wife in front of the man of the house, or 169 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: beats up the kids, one or the other, and at 170 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 1: that point desperation sets in. And by the way, it's 171 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: not a unique thing. This is all the time. And 172 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: these people go on the run, and they run north, 173 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: and they arrive at the border and they report that 174 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: the cartel is after me. I'm fleeing from the violence 175 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: of my country. But they don't mention exactly that the 176 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: reason that they're being subjected to this violence is that 177 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: they're up to the Hilton debt and the cartel is 178 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: collecting the money they bore from the cartel. So, to 179 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: some extent, as you've mentioned earlier, a fair amount of 180 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: this is from failed states. I remember when we talked 181 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: to one point, there was a particular town in Honduras 182 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,239 Speaker 1: I think where the level of violence was so high 183 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: that there were almost no young male surviving. But as 184 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: I understand it, Jim Clifton's I should mentioned as the 185 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: head of Gallop Gallop does this world Pole? And I 186 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: have to ask you in part. You had mentioned earlier 187 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: that a lot of people would like to move. I 188 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: don't see any of them moving towards China or Russia. 189 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: I just say that because after all the complaints about America, 190 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: it turns out the worldwide, if you have a country 191 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: of choice, it turns out to be the United States 192 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,199 Speaker 1: that you'd like to go to. We always ask this 193 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: to the people that want to migrate, where would you 194 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: like to migrate? And the sixty percent or seventy percent 195 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: always say the United States. You're absolutely right. Second place 196 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: often is Spain, and this is a place that's particularly 197 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: interesting for maids. For example, I've seen full plane loads 198 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: taking off from the Honduran airports of women going as 199 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:34,959 Speaker 1: household domestics in Spain. Another country is Canada. If they 200 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,079 Speaker 1: go to Canada, it's probable that after a few years, 201 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: because of the cold, they head south, but at least 202 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: they started Canada. There's a sizable for example, Bolivian community 203 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 1: in Argentina. There are a lot of Venezuelans everywhere Venezuela 204 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: as a country. They just need to get out. They're 205 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 1: in Peru, they're in Colombia, they're in Panama. But they 206 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: are absolutely correct. The place people want to go to 207 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: the United States. That's the land of opportunity, that's how 208 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: the world views the United States. You live in Costa Rica, 209 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: which has historically been the most successful of all the 210 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: Central American countries, the least violent, the most prosperous. What 211 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: is it about Costa Rican history that made it different. Well, 212 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: the biggest thing that makes Costa Rica a different country 213 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: is that it eliminated its armed forces. They decided that 214 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: a country that size didn't really need an army, which 215 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: was consuming twenty five percent of the development budget, and 216 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 1: so they simply eliminated There are police, but the twenty 217 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: five percent that they saved was used for education and 218 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: for health services, and so this provided a population which 219 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: is healthier and better educated than the rest of the countries. 220 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: I should say that Panama also has eliminated its armed 221 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: forces after the invasion of nineteen eighty nine, which was 222 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: called just cause. If you remember and Panama has had 223 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: quite a turnaround. In fact, it has the highest GDP 224 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: in the hemisphere outside of the United States and thirty 225 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: one thousand dollars. And when you ask in Panama, how 226 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: likely is it to German and migrate somewhere? No one's 227 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: leaving plus and I went down to Panama City. I 228 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: guess it was about two thousand fifteen or so. One 229 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: of those jokes down there was the Panama Cities a 230 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: lot like Miami, except people in Panama City can speak English. 231 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: Excuse me, yes, but neither the Costa Ricans or the 232 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: Panamanians are leaving the country because there are opportunities, there 233 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: are startups. The governments, I'm not saying that they're honest, 234 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: but they're much more honest and saved one in Honduras 235 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: or Guatemala or whatever. The stories that I could talk 236 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: about the governments, that would be another day for another subject. 237 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: But what I wonder if we could just talk a 238 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: little bit about the extra continentals and how they're getting 239 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: what's happened is that there are two countries in South America, 240 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: Ecuador in Brazil that do not require a visa for 241 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: anybody to come if you have a valid passport. You 242 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: could be from Somalia or any place at all, you 243 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: can get in. So, for example, the Haitians, who are 244 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: now becoming a big topic in the United States, the 245 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: Haitians can take a flight from Port of Prince to 246 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: Quito and get in, and then they begin to work 247 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: their way up through Colombia across the jungles of Darien. 248 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: It's a very tough trip. And what's happened is that 249 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: each of the countries in Central America has said, okay, 250 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: we'll let so many of those in a day, and so, 251 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: for example, Costa Rica allows two hundred and fifty people 252 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: Hatians mostly but Africans or whatever in for three days. 253 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: They have three days, they transit the country and get 254 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: out at the other end. And Costa Rica doesn't allow 255 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: more than that because we have the dictator in Nicaragua, 256 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: Dan Yellow Motega. And when Cubans began to come across, 257 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: this bothered him. Bothered him since Cuba, he fixed, it's 258 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: a wonderful country, and so he suddenly put a stop 259 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: to it, and Costa Rica get it up with four 260 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: to five thousand Cubans trapped on the northern border with Ortega. 261 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: So they're never sure what Ortega might do next. So 262 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: with the Haitians, it's two hundred fifty a day, and 263 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: if they go on through an Abarabla, same sort of 264 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: the deal, then the next two hundred and fifty go through, 265 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: but they ration it mostly because of Ortega. You have 266 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: almost a conscious pattern. Then fly from Haiti to Ecuador, 267 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: move north and end up in the US exactly. It's 268 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: a more comfortable way of doing things that, no matter 269 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: how tough, than trying to do it in a inner 270 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: tube like some nations who are doing it in the 271 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: old days. Right, for a long period, the boat people 272 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: from Cuba and the boat people from Haiti were amazing 273 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: number of people desperate to come. And I'm guessing because 274 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: of the disaster of Haitian history and Haitian culture that 275 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 1: there's probably the number one country where people would like 276 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: to leave because it's so difficult. Well, Haiti's are probably 277 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: seventy percented that people live in poverty and it's really 278 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: abject property. I've been there many times and we do 279 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: research there. There is a wealthy class I should tell 280 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 1: you that is living higher up in the mountains. The 281 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: Mercedes Benz dealer does well selling cars there and so on. 282 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: But most of the people are miserable. The government is 283 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 1: not functional, there are no services, there are no job opportunities. 284 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: That's a really a tough, tough situation. But that's one 285 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: group of extracombinentals. But then we have now the Africans, 286 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: the Moroccans, the Syrians that are coming across and they 287 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: don't go through Ecuador. They go to Brazil. They get 288 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: themselves to some point in Africa where there are flights 289 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: across the Atlantic. They're into some of the Brazilian places. 290 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: The car is one of them. I'm pretty forward, where 291 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 1: they where there are flights and Brazil a mining and 292 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: from every go on to work their way over to 293 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: Columbia the same way. Finally, it's the same thing the 294 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: rest of them, which you have in part is more 295 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: and more people know how to do this. And from 296 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 1: our perspective as Americans, we should assume that an open 297 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: border policy. I calculate at one time that based on 298 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: the gallop worldwide numbers, that would be about one hundred 299 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: and fifty million people who'd like to be in the US, 300 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: which would be pretty hard to assimilate. That's sure, scale 301 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 1: would be amazing. Unfortunately, probably if you did take in 302 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: people without any limitation, you're beginning some unsavory elements, quite 303 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: a lot of them. But the extra continentals have other 304 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: issues because they think of a person that is African 305 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: coming through these countries, they stand out. These countries are 306 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: mostly made up of mulatos or indigenous peoples, so it's 307 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: very hard for them. If a Honduran goes through Mexico, 308 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: it's very hard for the Mexican authorities to pick them out. 309 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: But they can pick out these extra continentals as they're 310 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: going through, and so I think that they're subjected to 311 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: a lot more problems going through Mexico. Untrafficked. I have 312 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: to point that out, un trafficked, because if you're trafficed, 313 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: the authorities are being paid for sure, but if you're 314 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: doing it on your own, you're going to be preyed on. 315 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: Especially going through Mexico, it's going to be very tough. 316 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: One of the things we're dealing with the course is 317 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: the degree to which Mexico itself is so penetrated both 318 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: by organized crime and by a culture of payoffs that 319 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: it's very difficult from Mexico to actually be able to 320 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:51,400 Speaker 1: lock down and stop things but I think that's hard 321 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: for Americans to come to grips with. But in addition, 322 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: the Biden administration decided this is something I've seen other 323 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 1: administrations do that. Boy, if we could focus on Guatemala 324 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: or Salvador and Honduras, that would really solve it. But 325 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: I was just looking at some numbers, and in May 326 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: of twenty nineteen, seventy eight percent of the border encounters 327 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: were from the Northern Triangle countries, but by July of 328 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: twenty one they were only forty five percent. Fifty five percent. 329 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: We're coming from places other than the three countries the 330 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: by administration wants to focus on. Well, we're now living 331 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: in a global communication system, and the word goes out. 332 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: We've been checking with our polls. You think there's a 333 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: change in the Polunited if the barns, if there has 334 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: been or not. Most people in these countries think that 335 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: they can go to the United States, get in and 336 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: live there and there's no problem. They did not think 337 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 1: that before in the last administration. They thought that the 338 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: thing was clapped down. So the word spreads. You don't 339 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: need media to do it. It's a word of mouth. 340 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: When you ask people do you have a relative or 341 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,120 Speaker 1: a close friend living in another country. What you get 342 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: is that many, many people from Salvador in these other countries, 343 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: many do. And what happens is migrants generally go to 344 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: a place where they have a family member because they 345 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: need to bunk up, They need somewhere to put their 346 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: heads down while they get themselves set up and look 347 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: for work and so on. And so when Magaret goes there, 348 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: this is the norm for migrants. They go back and 349 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: they're telling their kids, their wife, their relatives, things are 350 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: wonderful here. There's an old story about a young man 351 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 1: from a city in El Salvadore called Usugatan, who in 352 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine went to a town just outside Washington, 353 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: DC and had a picture taken of himself after he'd 354 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 1: been there two weeks leaning on a pe Cadillac and 355 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: send it back to his mother. After that, every person 356 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: from Sue Latan who migrated went to that particular place 357 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: because if in two weeks you could get a pink catalog, 358 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 1: didn't mind matter. That wasn't the guy's car, it was 359 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 1: just simply the image. So the Northern Triangle people have 360 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: family up in the States. Now, there's an estimate that 361 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: for example, Salvado, there's eight million living here and there's 362 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: three million living in the States. With those kind of numbers, 363 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: every single person knows somebody in the States where they 364 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: can go if they want to correct me if I'm wrong, 365 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: but I think that Los Angeles is the second largest 366 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: Salvadorian city after Saint Salvador. I think so that's absolutely later. 367 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is true or not, but 368 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: somebody argued that MS thirteen became impossible for the police 369 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 1: to deal with because it imported back into El Salvador 370 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 1: the techniques of the gangs in Los Angeles, and they 371 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: simply had a much higher level of organization and structure 372 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: then people are dealt with in El Salvador before MS 373 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: thirteen showed up. Think about this. If you're a Salvador 374 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: and you migrate to the United States, let's say illegally. 375 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: The first thing that you have to do is find 376 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: a place to sleep. But after that you try to 377 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:20,719 Speaker 1: get two jobs, two forty hour jobs. You need to 378 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: work sixteen hours a day, just simply because you're going 379 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 1: to be sending money back. You need to live and 380 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: normally what they do then is four or five men 381 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,719 Speaker 1: who are rent one apartment share the expensive branding apartment, 382 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: putting mattresses on the floor, and that's where they live 383 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: and they're sending the money back and within a year 384 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: or two they bring them wife up and if they can, 385 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 1: the kids, and so the family is now a unit. 386 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: The mother is working sixteen hours, the father's working sixteen 387 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: and the kids are left alone to be raised on 388 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,879 Speaker 1: the streets. And what happens is they're the gangs waiting 389 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: for them, especially in Los Angeles, and ladas they're called amora, 390 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 1: are waiting for these kids. So what happens is they 391 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: don't nationalize them, they don't become citizens, and so they've 392 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: been doing crimes with the gangs as miners and the 393 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: sheriff is letting them go. But when they're nineteen, all 394 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: of a sudden they're in a cell there and the 395 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: sheriff says, well, you know, are you in America. No, 396 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: they deport them. And I personally have been in the 397 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: San salvad Or airport watching a plane coming in, one 398 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,080 Speaker 1: of the planes that carries deported people, and you see 399 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: these kids coming in and they come into the airport 400 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: with a garbage bag with some of their possessions. They 401 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: know no Spanish. They have never been in San Salvador 402 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: in their lives, but that's their nationality, and they're let loose. 403 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: They're not wanted in salvad Or for anything. They're let 404 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: loose and they go into the city. And what they 405 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: did then is formed gangs. And you're absolutely right. The 406 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: thing was that the American modas, or these kids that 407 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,919 Speaker 1: are not Americans but were raising the states, have better tattoos, 408 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: and so you could always distinguish which were the gang 409 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: members that came back from Los Angeles and knew how 410 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 1: to handle firearms much better than the ones here because 411 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: they have the really nicely colored tattoos. That's wild in 412 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: a sense, we are exporting some of our criminals back 413 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: to countries that don't have strong enough police and other 414 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: structures to cope with them. Well, imagine someone who's been 415 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: dealing with the police of Los Angeles for one reason 416 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: or another, and all the things that the gangs do 417 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles, and it has learned how to use 418 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: firearms that were not really prevalent here and so on. 419 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: And what happened, of course, is that these gangs originally 420 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: operated independently, but since then the cartel has hired them gangs, 421 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: the matas as they're called, become the strong arm of 422 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: the cartels inside these countries. We send limited amounts of 423 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: money to Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. These are all 424 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,159 Speaker 1: countries that have, as you point out earlier, governments of 425 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: dubious honesty and efficiency. Does that money actually accomplish very 426 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: much or would we have to send dramatically more to 427 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: actually have an impact. Well, this is an interesting subject 428 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: because I remember I talked to the congresswoman from El Paso, 429 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: whose name escapes me at this moment, but you had suggested. 430 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: I talked to her and she kept saying to me, 431 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: were sure, wish we didn't have to send the money 432 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: to these governments because the money just doesn't get out there. 433 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: The focus these days for the money that's going down 434 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: to these countries is the objective is to develop something 435 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: called resilience. And what does that mean. It means that 436 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 1: people living in these barrios are going to be able 437 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: to stay on even though the conditions are worse. They're 438 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: going to put lights up on the streets and maybe 439 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: make sure that the schools stay open and put in 440 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: a police post, that kind of thing. But I don't 441 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: personally think that the hoping resilience so that people can 442 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: stand living in these kinds of situations really will stop 443 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: the young people from heading north if they have the 444 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: chance to mean so. Part of our problems is the 445 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: more successful we are, the bigger the beacon will be 446 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: for other people to come here. I'm going to tell 447 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: a story which I shouldn't but I will. I can 448 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: remember when Jesse Helms decided to visit Honduras and he 449 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: sent down and said, while I'm there, because his former 450 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: AA had married a Hondura and colonel and moved to 451 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: the capital of that country. Deborah Demas was her name, 452 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,680 Speaker 1: and Jesse said, I want to see what the billion 453 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: dollars we sent down is produced here in Honduras. And 454 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: they were in an abject panic over at the mission 455 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: because there really wasn't anything to show hate to save it. 456 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: But that is what happened. Well, yeah, I don't know 457 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: if you're familiar that. There's a fascinating book by Sam 458 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: Quinonas called Dreamland, The True Tale of America's Opian Epidemic. 459 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: He was a Los Angeles reporter who really got deeply 460 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: immersed and threw in his Spanish very comfortable in the region. 461 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: He describes one particular town in Mexico figuring out what 462 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: we're about. Six or eight guys start, I think just 463 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: outside of la and exactly where you described, across the 464 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: border illegally. All of them are in one apartment, and 465 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: they figure out that they could operate a drug operation 466 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: at the retail level. And they actually modeled it off 467 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: of pizza hut, so you know, you would call them, 468 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: they would meet you somewhere, they would deliver to you. 469 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: And they began building franchises across the whole country. And 470 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: it all went back to this one relatively small town, 471 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: and they said the initial signal was that the guys 472 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: who'd gone to California had new blue jeans, and when 473 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: they came back home, the new blue jeans said to 474 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: everybody else, Wow, if I go up there, I could 475 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: get new blue jeans too. I just mentioned it because 476 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: it's one of the most fascinating stories about how did 477 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: this combination of cocaine and heroin and now centinel become 478 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: basically nationwide. And these guys were operating in North Carolina, 479 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: they were operating all across the country. Their ground rule 480 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: was no big cities and no place where the local 481 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: gangs had guns because they wanted to be a retail product, 482 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: not part of the traditional violence that we associate with crime. 483 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: We send this money down to governments that are of 484 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: at times dubious efficiency, of dubious honesty, who are presiding 485 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: over a culture which isn't competitive with us and producing 486 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: wealth and productivity and standard of living. How do you 487 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: see all of this playing out? This is another subject 488 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: that Jane Clifton and I've talked about a great deal 489 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: to facilitate the development of businesses in these countries, setting 490 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: up the young people, finding entrepreneurs that can have an experience, 491 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: get something going in their own country, and maybe higher 492 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: two or three others. And what we need to do 493 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: is to develop a lot more startup on the business side, 494 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: rather than focusing on social issues which involve the government, 495 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: try to get money out to young people. Right now, 496 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: if you're a young man in Guatemala or one of 497 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: the chichikstan Ago and you want to start a business, 498 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: there's no local capital available for you, and the only 499 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: people that really are going to want to hire you 500 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: are specifically the people you just mentioned. The drug guys. 501 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: Will start you out as a runner or as somebody 502 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: has stands on the corner or case the police come by, 503 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: or whatever it is. But the thing is, what we 504 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: really need is new businesses in these countries. And there 505 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: are lots of people with an entrepreneurial spirit of what's 506 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: happening is they're leaving, they're headed to the States. There 507 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: are lots of stories about businesses started by these Central 508 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: Americans and others in the States where they've been successful. 509 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: It's got to be not focused as much on government 510 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 1: to government and this sort of the social resilience and 511 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 1: this kind of issues, and more on entrepreneurs developing entrepreneurs, 512 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: which Gallop has a program specifically designed for this, which 513 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: Jim could describe in great details. But what I've said 514 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: it in the past one i've had the opportunity to 515 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: speak like I have today. You have sort of one 516 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: of two choices. It's not necessarily just or unjust. You 517 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 1: can either have the Latin Americans up there living with 518 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: you and doing their lives, or you can have them 519 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: back at home. And if you want them back at 520 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: home doing their businesses and their activities there, we need 521 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: to sort of finance the kind of thing I'm talking about. 522 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: I remember a little bit more than forty years ago 523 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: working with a group at Georgia Tech that was in 524 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: the Cali area of Colombia, which was far enough away 525 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: from organized crime at that time that they really were 526 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: economically developing. Their whole purpose of the Georgia Tech project 527 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: was to figure out how you optimize the rate of development. 528 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: But one of the frustrations of Latin America, but also 529 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: most of the Third World is you have a place 530 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: like Venezuela, which at one point had one of the 531 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 1: highest per capita incomes in the Western Hemisphere, looked like 532 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: it was going to be a very stable, prosperous, middle class, 533 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: democratic society, and for the last twenty years it's been 534 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: on a road to hell with corrupt dictators who have 535 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: shattered the fabric of the culture and shattered the fabric 536 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: of the economy. I mean, it seems to me that 537 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: that's one of the great challenges we have worldwide. When 538 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 1: you have a regime like that, or like the regime 539 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,839 Speaker 1: in Haiti, the level of change they would require for 540 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: their country to be more desirable than living in Saint Jacksonville, 541 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: Florida is a staggering challenge. Now we're talking about going forward. 542 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: One of the things that's happened is that political parties 543 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 1: that were published many years ago have disintegrated in many 544 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: of these countries. And now, for example, there's an election 545 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: coming up in Costa Rica in February, and there's twenty 546 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: six candidates for the presidency, each of them with some 547 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,080 Speaker 1: sort of a political party that they're representing, and the 548 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: sort of traditional two party system that used to exist 549 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: has faded away. And in Panama it's headed in that 550 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 1: direction as well. And the minute that you make it 551 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: a personality election rather than one based on programs and 552 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: parties and so on, what you're looking at is the 553 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 1: inevitable sort of the next step. For example, here in 554 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: San salvad Or, there's a gentleman who's the president right now, 555 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: who I think wants to stay on as long as 556 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 1: you possibly can, even though the constitution doesn't allow it. 557 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: Once it becomes a personality thing, there is this trend 558 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: that takes place. Venezuela. Medudo is there for good. Builds 559 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 1: up the military, make sure they're well paid, and they're 560 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: willing to fight the rest of the population to keep 561 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: him in and they're all on the drug business. Latin 562 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 1: America there's a long way to go. And I was thinking, 563 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: when Venezuela finally sees the light and Medulla is gone, 564 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: they'll be All these Venezuelas headed up to the States 565 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: because their lives were ruined by Madula. It's kind of 566 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: a repetitive thing. I have a daughter who lives in 567 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: Key Biscaine, and she said, you can tell housing prices 568 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: based on which country as a crisis, because people who 569 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: are wealthy tend to be people who look ahead. And 570 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: most of the wealthy Venezuelans figured early on the Chavas 571 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: and then Maduro represented the end of their world, and 572 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: so they just bought a place in Florida. They said, 573 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: this is inevitable. I want to have a place I 574 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: can hide if I have to. And it actually was 575 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: good for her because it drove up the price of housing, 576 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: so her house is worth a lot more than it 577 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: used to be. Carlos, I know that Gallup is very 578 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: committed to being nonpartisan and non political, because at once 579 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,399 Speaker 1: the integrity of its polling and the integrity of its 580 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: analysis to be the best in the world and beyond 581 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 1: any sense of partisan distortion, so to degree within that 582 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: framework that you can comment We've had the Obama approach 583 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,160 Speaker 1: and then the Trump approach, and now the Biden approach, 584 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: which is sort of Obama on steroids. How do you 585 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: see the evolution of American policy affecting the scale of 586 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: migration towards the US. There is a common thread throughout 587 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: all of these countries when they talk about US policy 588 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: towards the region. And what any sort of thinking person 589 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: or politician will say is it doesn't matter who is 590 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: governing the United States. There's only two things that they're 591 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: interested in when it's dealing with Latin America. One stopping 592 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: the drugs to stopping the migration, and anything else is 593 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,919 Speaker 1: not of very much interest to US policymakers. But having 594 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 1: said that, there are two institutions which operate in the region. 595 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: One is called IRII, which is the International Republican Institute, 596 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: and the other one is the NDI. And even though 597 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 1: they come from two different sides of the political spectrum 598 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: inside the United States, in Latin America, they share a 599 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,399 Speaker 1: set of principles, one of them being that it's very 600 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: important to make the democracies more robust. Because the big 601 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: miracle of the turn of the century was that the 602 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,600 Speaker 1: United States managed to get rid of all the dictators 603 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: in Latin America and convince everyone to have democracies and 604 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,839 Speaker 1: to have elected leaders. This is one of the greatest 605 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: success stories of the United States, and now it's unwinding, 606 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 1: and certain of the countries like Yale, Solidor and certainly 607 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: in Venezuela and to some extend Bolivia and some of 608 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: these countries where they're moving over to a personalist What 609 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,920 Speaker 1: I forgot Ortega where he still talks the communist ideology, 610 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: but it's one of the biggest businessmen in his country. 611 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: That kind of thing. The operational basis of looking at 612 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: the US foreign policy is that it's devoted to controlling 613 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: drugs and controlling migration. And on the first topic, the 614 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: actually the interdiction program has been very successful. I mean 615 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,800 Speaker 1: there's just tons and tons and tons of drugs seized 616 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: every day coming up through these regions. And some says 617 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 1: explained the drug business to me, I say, well, you 618 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: can buy a kilo of cocaine and medieve for two 619 00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. If you can move it to Mexico City, 620 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: that one kilo is now worth sixteen thousand, and if 621 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: you can move it to New York City, it's worth 622 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: forty eight thousand. That's a big markup and motivate for 623 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 1: people to keep trying to do it, especially in poor countries. 624 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: What I can say on the migration pattern is that 625 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: the idea during the Trump years was that there was 626 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: a shutdown and this spread through the region. No, you're 627 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: going to get pushed back. You're not going to be 628 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: allowed in if you want to claim asylum. And many 629 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 1: of the asylum seekers base their petition on asylum on 630 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: the fact that the MATA is going to do things 631 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: that are violent to them, but it's because they owe 632 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: them money. This is the part they leave out when 633 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: they fill out the request. But now the word is 634 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: that the borders open and anybody can come in and 635 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 1: probably achieve legal residency in a period of a couple 636 00:40:55,560 --> 00:41:00,719 Speaker 1: of three years and stay on. And I don't know. 637 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 1: As a friend of mine said, if you have a country, 638 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: don't you have the right to decide who comes this 639 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: like your house, who do you let come in and 640 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: live with you? You should have something to say about this. 641 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: And the American people who are not getting that saved. 642 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: Do you think it's possible to actually control the border? Well, 643 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,280 Speaker 1: I think that there will always be some people coming across, 644 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 1: but at this huge level, there's got to be a 645 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: shift in policy making. I mean a place like Haiti, 646 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 1: with its eleven million people, many of them starving every day, 647 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: something's got to be done more than just simply trying 648 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: to shut them out. I think that there's got to 649 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: be some investment in the country, but investment done wisely. 650 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: Most of the buildings that fell down in Port of 651 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: Prince in the twenty ten earthquake were buildings built with 652 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: USAID money, and the USAID said, well, what we need 653 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: to do is promote construction companies among Haitians. And all 654 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:12,920 Speaker 1: of these new, beautiful new buildings were built without any rebar. 655 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: And so what fell down in the earthquake. We're none 656 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: of the old houses. It was all the AID money 657 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: houses that these guys built, the houses of rebar. Because 658 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: we haven't had an earthquake since eighteen eighty, we're not 659 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 1: going to have one now. These stories of this type 660 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,919 Speaker 1: are so many that I really don't know what to say. 661 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 1: Haiti to me has always been one of the most 662 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: puzzling problems because right next to it, on the same island, 663 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: the Dominican Republic is dramatically more successful society. And we've 664 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 1: had some direct involvement in Haiti since the mid nineteen 665 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,879 Speaker 1: twenties when the Marines were sent there, and it's really 666 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 1: a country in so much trouble that in the culture 667 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: of the politics, the corruption divide is that to really 668 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: get it to a point where people would be comfortable 669 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: staying in Haiti is such a dramatic change, and of 670 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,080 Speaker 1: course the local power structure will fight it, because if 671 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,359 Speaker 1: you're the guys with the Mercedes living up on top 672 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: of the mountains, you're fine. You're not sure you want 673 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,879 Speaker 1: to risk any change that might help all those poor 674 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: people down in the valley because it might threaten your status. 675 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: I think it's a very hard problem, right, but it's 676 00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:34,879 Speaker 1: got to be addressed somehow, And basically, the educational level 677 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: has got to be raised. The educational level media and 678 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: education of a Haitian is third grade, and a person 679 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: with a third grade education really is very limited in 680 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: what they can offer in a modern economy. The ones 681 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,280 Speaker 1: who are managing to leave are a constant braindering because 682 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: people who are smart enough to get to Brazil or 683 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,959 Speaker 1: to get to Ecuador and work their way north into 684 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: Texas or California. They're relatively competent compared to the people 685 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: who are still trapped. I mean, it's a remarkably hard problem. 686 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: I just want to say it in closing. First of all, 687 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,919 Speaker 1: thank you for this kind of candor and this kind 688 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: of time. And I've greatly admired your work. Jim told 689 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:22,120 Speaker 1: me early on that you probably understood Central America better 690 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: than anybody he'd ever talk to, So I appreciate your 691 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: years of diligence in studying the entire region, and I 692 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: also appreciate your candor. I think anybody who hears this 693 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 1: podcast will learn an immense amount that they did not 694 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: know beforehand. And I wish you well as you criss 695 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: cross the region and continue to both learn and then 696 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: teach the rest of us. Thank you, Carlos, this was 697 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:54,839 Speaker 1: great anytime, delighted. Thank you. Thank you to my guest, 698 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,400 Speaker 1: Carlos Denton. You can read more about the migration crisis 699 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: at our southern border and the causes on our show 700 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: page at Newtsworld dot com, and you also have a 701 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: link to Gallop at the show page, so you can 702 00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,960 Speaker 1: see all the various sources of information that Gallop provides, 703 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: which is truly Amazing. Newtsworld is produced by Gingwish three 704 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Debbie Myers, our 705 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 1: producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 706 00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 707 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. If 708 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 709 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,640 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 710 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,720 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 711 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up from my 712 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com 713 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm newt Gangwich. This is Newtsworld.