Speaker 1: Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies. These episodes are based on These are our
Speaker 2: stories done done? Who do Who? That's messed up? An
Speaker 2: SVU podcast. I'm Liza Trigger and I'm Kara Klank.
Speaker 1: Every week it's SVU recaps true crime, deep dives and
Speaker 1: chats with guests and today guests guests. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: didn't even know which which we're doing, but we've got
Speaker 1: a lot.
Speaker 3: Do we wish? Do we wish? We got this woman Shore?
Speaker 3: Did we get or no? Is this pro bound? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: Despite us be brief co workers, she did not heed
Speaker 1: the call of guesting on the podcast. But we have
Speaker 1: a lot of big sketchups. So do you want to start?
Speaker 1: I have a couple of things.
Speaker 2: Well we'll start. This is an SVU related thing, so
Speaker 2: we'll just start with this. So you know, I play
Speaker 2: my movie games cinema Trix right now.
Speaker 3: This will be an older one.
Speaker 2: You can go to the archive, but May Eleventh's Telematrix.
Speaker 2: It's Judith Light or Maren Ireland, who's Coreesy's sister and
Speaker 2: you have Judith Light. Then the next category is Dan Stevens,
Speaker 2: so I don't know who that is. But then it's
Speaker 2: as if Mondvi, who is a guest and an SVU person,
Speaker 2: then it's cch Pounder or Stephen Root. Oh my god
Speaker 2: for SVU people in the telematrix, and they're they're all
Speaker 2: a little hard. I gave the SVU to cch Pounder
Speaker 2: and I did good. But it's tough out there, but
Speaker 2: I thought it was exciting. It was exciting to have
Speaker 2: all of them out in there.
Speaker 3: Maren Ireland is like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: So she must be in something huge we're not thinking of,
Speaker 2: because why is she in this thing? I have like
Speaker 2: seen her and other stuff.
Speaker 3: Of course she was. She's like a younger Terry Polo,
Speaker 3: who I think she looks like.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so anyways, so that's neither here nor there.
Speaker 2: But I just thought I would let the people know
Speaker 2: if they were interested in testing that.
Speaker 1: I guess she was in Homeland, which I watched all
Speaker 1: of that's not see it.
Speaker 3: Did you just look that up? Yeah? Well, I'm playing
Speaker 3: the game. You can't look at up.
Speaker 1: How you did it already? I'm sorry, christ I'm sorry.
Speaker 3: I didn't mean that you can't. Well, don't use it now.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I I thought you did it. I
Speaker 3: thought you already did it. Oh no, but now okay,
Speaker 3: So that's my one thing, now, you know. Okay.
Speaker 1: So, not not specifically as VU related, but related to
Speaker 1: the fact that we always say on this fucking podcast
Speaker 1: that if you are rich enough and you get convicted
Speaker 1: of a crime, you will appeal and appeal until you.
Speaker 3: Fucking get out and murder.
Speaker 1: Murdoch guy, the guy from Murdoch Murders who fully murdered
Speaker 1: his fucking wife and also tried to cover up his
Speaker 1: son's crimes. And they're like a dynasty of generationally wealthy
Speaker 1: idiots in South Carolina. That there's a whole podcast called
Speaker 1: The Murdoch Murders and a whole fucking scripted show about
Speaker 1: them with who Patricia Arquette plays the mom.
Speaker 3: So maybe it is SPU related.
Speaker 1: Just got appealed, just his conviction was overturned, he won
Speaker 1: his appeal, and he's getting a new trial. And it's
Speaker 1: related to perjury charges for letting the press view sealed exhibits.
Speaker 1: That's what I was saying. I was like explaining this
Speaker 1: to my friends before this, I was like, yeah, we
Speaker 1: always see this on the podcast, that these motherfuckers like, yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: Bill Cosby went to jail. He eventually got out, like
Speaker 1: all these people get out because they just have so
Speaker 1: much money and they'll just appeal. And they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: like they'll they'll have a new defense.
Speaker 3: I go, no, No, they'll.
Speaker 1: Just say, oh, this piece of evidence was not logged
Speaker 1: the right way. Like they'll just find loopholes and like
Speaker 1: ways to appear and get out of it.
Speaker 3: Like this guy definitely fucking did it.
Speaker 2: And this is why I love Vigilante Justice, and maybe
Speaker 2: we'll see what happens.
Speaker 3: I saw that this morning. I saw that this morning.
Speaker 1: Oh god, because like when he got convicted, I was like, great,
Speaker 1: like a rich and powerful family even in this small
Speaker 1: little pocket of South Carolina is going to get theirs.
Speaker 1: And then no, nope, no, but I hopefully on a
Speaker 1: second trial get convicted again. I think it's pretty damning.
Speaker 1: But anyway, I'm just saying I'm sick and tired of
Speaker 1: being sick and tired.
Speaker 2: When does actually stayed out of that case. I don't
Speaker 2: know much about it. I didn't watch anything read about it.
Speaker 2: I just I was listening to it's kind of like
Speaker 2: southern charm, Like I'm not interested.
Speaker 3: Yeah it was.
Speaker 1: I listened to the podcast because the girl that like
Speaker 1: did it, Mandy Mattley or something is her name.
Speaker 3: She's like real scrappy.
Speaker 1: She like wrote for like local paper down there and
Speaker 1: kind of did this all on her own and like
Speaker 1: they were trying to and I was like sort of
Speaker 1: just like supporting her journalism. But I listened to the
Speaker 1: whole podcast and was like, oh, this family is gross.
Speaker 1: But this comes out on May nineteenth, Los Angeles. We've
Speaker 1: got to vote. Please, if you're even considering a vote
Speaker 1: for Spencer Pratt, please don't listen to this podcast anymore.
Speaker 1: I cannot have Spencer Pratt be the mayor of my city.
Speaker 2: Like, you know, my former hair dresser in La is
Speaker 2: pro Spencer Pratt.
Speaker 1: That's not surprising to me, knowing. Yeah, yeah, like a
Speaker 1: little netty, a little nutty. There's people we know that
Speaker 1: we've hung out with that are going for him.
Speaker 3: He's not an option.
Speaker 1: He's a climate change denier who doesn't understand why his
Speaker 1: house burned down.
Speaker 3: Like come on, like, let's it's the fires that's what
Speaker 3: connects these people.
Speaker 1: It's yes, and like he has all these like weird Listen,
Speaker 1: I'm pro dogs. I don't want dogs being injured. I
Speaker 1: don't want dogs being harmed on the street. But like,
Speaker 1: we cannot like vote for someone solely based on like
Speaker 1: a dog platform, Like we need to vote for things
Speaker 1: that are going to affect the humans of our city
Speaker 1: and this guy is not it. So and then I'll
Speaker 1: try to post some of you have been texting me
Speaker 1: and messaging me for my Progressive voter Guide. I'm waiting
Speaker 1: for them to come out so i can take a look.
Speaker 1: But also for governor, we need to wait till last
Speaker 1: minute and just vote for who's the highest. Sorry, that's
Speaker 1: just how it is with these stupid jungle primaries.
Speaker 3: That's my that's Kara's political corner.
Speaker 1: Lisa, let's talk about Mortal Kombat.
Speaker 3: Listen. I saw Mortal Kombat too. I loved it.
Speaker 2: Then I saw Mortal Kombat from twenty twenty one, and
Speaker 2: then I watched the nineteen ninety five Mortal Kombat and
Speaker 2: loved it all. Loved the music. Already put a request
Speaker 2: in to ride to it at Soul Cycle. I'm like,
Speaker 2: please play Mortal Kombat. When I'm saying Mortal Kombat too,
Speaker 2: just come out. Yeah, And I was And I was
Speaker 2: there Thursday at like ten thirty pm in Vegas at
Speaker 2: a strip mall. Oh, I have no idea my one
Speaker 2: nighter I wasn't. I just didn't want to see Devil
Speaker 2: was proud of too in Las Vegas. Like I was like,
Speaker 2: I want to watch that in New York and I
Speaker 2: have like walk there. And so after my show, I
Speaker 2: was just like, because it's the I remember seeing something
Speaker 2: and it is about Katana a lot, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I'll just go.
Speaker 3: To Mortal Kombat relaxed.
Speaker 2: Took a couple of white Claws in there, and and
Speaker 2: I loved it. And obviously I have continued my Mortal
Speaker 2: Kombat journey. Damn Okay, I really enjoyed it. I mean
Speaker 2: it makes no sense, but I really want to go
Speaker 2: realm hopping and like no one really dies, but sometimes
Speaker 2: there's there they don't have arms anymore. I'm just like.
Speaker 3: Some light like get over here. I don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it, but I love get over Here.
Speaker 2: I also love like the Slice of Lights. So like
Speaker 2: a couple was late and I heard them be like, fuck,
Speaker 2: we missed the first kill. And I'm like that's so funny,
Speaker 2: Like that's just like not something I would even think about.
Speaker 2: But I would never be I would never be late
Speaker 2: to a movie. I just would I would rather not
Speaker 2: go so but it's just it was funny to like
Speaker 2: be in a space with people because I don't see
Speaker 2: action movies every yeah, so it was just kind of
Speaker 2: fun like walk my fa is.
Speaker 1: Like as actionny as it gets for me, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'm not going to like hardcore action movies.
Speaker 3: Really yeah, I'm not seeing Transformers. So but did you
Speaker 3: see Devil Wars Protato not yet? I've been busy. Go
Speaker 3: Go go La was insane.
Speaker 2: I truly I lived like a New Yorker, Like I
Speaker 2: would have a nine am and then I wouldn't get
Speaker 2: back to my room until like one in the morning.
Speaker 3: Two in the morning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like jam packed it and it was fun.
Speaker 2: And I will say at my hotel, I saw John Taturo.
Speaker 2: I saw it Tony Shaloub and he did look at
Speaker 2: my tits like I never I am not a.
Speaker 3: Tosh and all in that way, monk, my eyes are
Speaker 3: up here. I can't. Yes, No, it was amazing and
Speaker 3: it was from Afar and then and I did leave
Speaker 3: my bathing suit there in La I'm like so upset.
Speaker 3: But anyways, and then he's spun around own and did
Speaker 3: it again, and I feel like we made eye contacts,
Speaker 3: like it was kind of exciting.
Speaker 2: But I also saw Billy Bob Thornton so start a
Speaker 2: piper paraboo piper parabou from from Coyote ugly.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And.
Speaker 2: So that was so that was all pretty like a
Speaker 2: thrilling experience for so many sightings. I went to my
Speaker 2: soul cycles, I had some food, I taped some things,
Speaker 2: and you know, went to dry bar.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 1: Wait, Okay, first of all, did I talk about how
Speaker 1: I saw Deverawarres product already on this podcast?
Speaker 3: You did? I saw it opening night.
Speaker 1: I saw it like the Thursday, like it opened on Friday,
Speaker 1: and I saw it on a Thursday. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you want my review I do? I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 3: I loved it. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think I just don't want to hype it up
Speaker 1: too much for anybody.
Speaker 2: No, I know, I'm gonna love it. And people said
Speaker 2: it's a great sequel. People are really like, I can't wait.
Speaker 2: And then Kate and then I have a friend in it,
Speaker 2: so I'm gonna fucking like it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they give you everything I wanted more Caleb, I'll
Speaker 1: say that, but they give you everything that you want.
Speaker 3: Really.
Speaker 2: Actually, someone came up to me at the West Hollywood
Speaker 2: Soul Cycle and when Caleb was underutilized.
Speaker 1: Honestly, kind of everybody that we know that is like
Speaker 1: such a genius comedy person that's getting cast in like
Speaker 1: bigger things. I'm like, they barely use John Early in
Speaker 1: the Comeback, and and Abby like they like they I
Speaker 1: don't know, they like they didn't give them really anything
Speaker 1: funny to do. So it's like, I don't know what
Speaker 1: these people are doing. Give them more funny things to do.
Speaker 1: But I just saw Meg Stalter is gonna be Mary
Speaker 1: and Oh Mary. That's gonna be wild.
Speaker 2: That I gotta. I woke up to a DM about that.
Speaker 2: That'll be really exciting.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Perfect.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I cannot go three summers in a row,
Speaker 1: like I cannot go see O Mary three summers in
Speaker 1: a row.
Speaker 2: I know, because I have to see other New York theater.
Speaker 2: I look at the Lost Boys twelve nominations. I guess
Speaker 2: I have taste.
Speaker 3: I know it.
Speaker 1: Yes, Wait, when did the Tony nominations come out like
Speaker 1: this week, last week, last week. Okay, yeah, fresh fresh,
Speaker 1: fresh fresh. All right, h read the complete list, all right,
Speaker 1: I need to see what I'm going to see when
Speaker 1: I go to New York. That was say that Best
Speaker 1: Musical was that Two Strangers got nominated? That thing you
Speaker 1: watch to carry a cake across New York. I don't
Speaker 1: think that's gonna win well, but it got nominated. And
Speaker 1: congratulations to our girl, Aya Cash, former guest of the Pod,
Speaker 1: who was nominated for a Best Actress Tony.
Speaker 3: Wow. Cool Yeah for Giant. Yeah what a thrill.
Speaker 2: Now I don't have a Tony nomination, but I am
Speaker 2: in the Bravo discourse and one of the evidence I
Speaker 2: cannot believe my like, I it's like a thrill because Jenfessler,
Speaker 2: I saw it all happen kind of. But I woke
Speaker 2: up to a group chat sending me that like it's
Speaker 2: it was circulating and then so a couple of people
Speaker 2: DM me like, oh you're in the drama or like
Speaker 2: watch out girl. I'm like, this is the greatest thing.
Speaker 2: There's nothing I did wrong.
Speaker 1: So just to give a little background for anybody that
Speaker 1: might not know what we're talking about the whole Sierra
Speaker 1: summer house thing with Amanda and West, and that was
Speaker 1: the guy that Lisa was on watch What Happens Live
Speaker 1: with like a while ago. And then Jen Fessler, who
Speaker 1: is a real housewife of New Jersey, posted the photo
Speaker 1: of the three of them, Lisa, West and Jen on
Speaker 1: March thirteenth, and that night, yeah, was there already talk
Speaker 1: of them hooking up?
Speaker 3: That? No, of course no, but that's a new piece
Speaker 3: of goossip.
Speaker 2: Okay, So we get to watch What Happens Live and
Speaker 2: I turned to my friends and I go, is that
Speaker 2: Gen Fessler over there? And it was so we couldn't
Speaker 2: believe it. So we're like talking to Gen Fessler. So
Speaker 2: then West comes and Jen was West plus one. Now,
Speaker 2: looking back, if I had fucked Wes and I was
Speaker 2: treated the way I was being treated, I'd be fucking pissed.
Speaker 2: And then my friends go, she was pissed. Don't you
Speaker 2: remember her at the bar being pissed? And I go, no,
Speaker 2: I was blackout, like I don't remember, but I went
Speaker 2: out with but like, in my head, if I had
Speaker 2: fucked this dude, and then he brought me as a
Speaker 2: date to this thing, and then he acted the way
Speaker 2: he was acting, I would definitely be why what was
Speaker 2: he doing?
Speaker 3: Just not paying attention to her at all?
Speaker 2: He was hanging out with us, and then there was
Speaker 2: like a bunch of like Bravo Instagram people. But like
Speaker 2: in my head I did he just said, oh, we
Speaker 2: bonded at Bravocon, and so I thought it would be
Speaker 2: fun to bring her, like, oh, I'm making new friends.
Speaker 1: I would have thought that too, Like she's here because
Speaker 1: it's always good publicity to like get photographed at watch
Speaker 1: what happens again and blah blah blah.
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, like he they just like what
Speaker 2: I was told by them was oh, we just vibed
Speaker 2: at Bravocon. But I'm being reminded that she was mad
Speaker 2: at the bar and then but and I would be too,
Speaker 2: But the vibes were fine. But it was strange that
Speaker 2: that was the day. But I loved taking photos of them.
Speaker 2: I loved being there. West is very charming DMD ahead
Speaker 2: of time, Like I understand how people are wrapped up
Speaker 2: in it. But I saw a post online that was
Speaker 2: like he is dangerous because he's someone that loves attention
Speaker 2: more than he loves love, and so like, you know, I.
Speaker 3: Don't really I don't really know.
Speaker 2: But then also another clip I just saw, and it's
Speaker 2: Jackie what's the fuck and Goldenschlager.
Speaker 3: What are their names?
Speaker 1: Jackie go it is something like that Jackie Goldschmidt.
Speaker 2: Maybe, oh it's not gold Schmidt, it's Juwi or it's Goldschneider, Goldschneider,
Speaker 2: not that Julie and weird is but a Goldschneider. So
Speaker 2: Goldschneider and Jen Fessler are on watch what happened? This
Speaker 2: is an old timey one and Andy goes, who's your
Speaker 2: whole pass with your husband? You know, she's been with
Speaker 2: her husband for twenty seven years, and like people are
Speaker 2: allowed to fuck outside their marriage if they have, you know, whatever.
Speaker 2: But he asked about the hall pass, and Jackie goes, well,
Speaker 2: that's obvious, and Jen goes really, and then Andy says
Speaker 2: say it at the same time, and she says, Evan Goldschneider. No,
Speaker 2: you're talking it's not Goldschneider. Isn't that Danielle from.
Speaker 3: Are you talking about that? Jackie?
Speaker 1: The other housewife of New Jersey? Yeah, it's gold that's
Speaker 1: Jackie Goldschneider. I'm looking at her. Picture right now.
Speaker 2: I truly can't believe that I never knew that that
Speaker 2: was her last name. I'm sitting here like, absolutely not.
Speaker 2: You thought I was talking about Danielle from Bitch Seshtal.
Speaker 2: I knew you were talking about Jackie. But then I go,
Speaker 2: there's no way that's her last name. Oh yeah, I
Speaker 2: just like, I've never seen her as that. To me,
Speaker 2: it's always more confusing and I always say Goldschlager. But anyway,
Speaker 2: but Jackie says, oh duh and says West's name, So
Speaker 2: that to me is so damning.
Speaker 3: And like it just is all me and why I
Speaker 3: would see her a lie about it. She obviously has
Speaker 3: evidence or she wouldn't be having this much fun online
Speaker 3: and being so obvious about it. But Jen was pissed
Speaker 3: that night, hmmm.
Speaker 1: And you don't get like just like pissed when you
Speaker 1: go with someone that you're like platonic with, like a friend,
Speaker 1: and they're not totally giving you all their attention, right yeah,
Speaker 1: because they're working like they're working.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but if it's like a date, you can be
Speaker 3: a little bit.
Speaker 2: I'm just saying, if I was fucked by that man
Speaker 2: and I was being treated not like I would be pissed. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that's that. That's how I feel. But I love
Speaker 2: being in the photos. I love being in the Bravo
Speaker 2: lore I love I love that I was there in
Speaker 2: the room where it happened. I mean, it's just like
Speaker 2: I was excited that I was in an episode of
Speaker 2: vander Pump Rules for one second in the background. Who
Speaker 2: knew I would be an evidence of a giant, weird
Speaker 2: fucking situation. And he was seen at an airport with
Speaker 2: another girl, like separate girl this week, like he is
Speaker 2: a fuck boy. We were charmed because he doesn't want
Speaker 2: like he likes trans people, so we were like, oh,
Speaker 2: he's a good guy, but.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, like he just uh yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And then everyone that met him at my friend's birthday
Speaker 2: party was like he was awesome and charming, Like he
Speaker 2: is a charming guy and he's hot. Yeah, but obviously,
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't wait for the reunion. I can't
Speaker 2: and I haven't even watched this season, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: can't wait for the reunion.
Speaker 3: I would watch the reunion.
Speaker 1: I haven't watched I don't watch Summer House, but I
Speaker 1: would watch this like it's Ariano Maddox was on Watch
Speaker 1: What Happens and it's like people are comparing you and
Speaker 1: see her and this and that, and she's like, why
Speaker 1: does it have to be the same.
Speaker 2: She's like there's similarities and differences and like we can
Speaker 2: still make money.
Speaker 3: Like what are you?
Speaker 2: I don't know, She's just I love her. I love her, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love her. Oh my god, what a time? What
Speaker 2: a time to be a You're in the discourse. I'm
Speaker 2: in the Bravo discourse. It's like heaven. I wish I
Speaker 2: had a more Hawkeye experience. But my friend was sitting
Speaker 2: next to her in the audience, So she's the one
Speaker 2: that's telling me, like the vibe, you know, like she
Speaker 2: saw it all. Yeah, I was being you know, I
Speaker 2: was focused. I was focused on, you know, trying to
Speaker 2: make it in the Watch what Happens Live universe, so
Speaker 2: I couldn't focus any attention on Jen Fessler.
Speaker 3: Oh and there was Mother's Day. What was your Mother's Day? Vibes?
Speaker 3: Mother's Day was great for me.
Speaker 1: I left the day before and I drove up to
Speaker 1: Carmel with a friend and I headlined a show at
Speaker 1: a winery, a Mother's Day show, and it was really
Speaker 1: like they put us up at this like it's like
Speaker 1: it takes place at this gorgeous vineyard obviously in Carmel,
Speaker 1: where I was worried because Clint Eastwood used to be
Speaker 1: the mayor, and I was worried that they were all
Speaker 1: going to be like rich Republicans, and maybe secretly some
Speaker 1: of them are, but they seemed like like when I
Speaker 1: was talking to them, they were like, oh no, we're not,
Speaker 1: like that's not who we are.
Speaker 3: And I was like, great, amazing. It was a and
Speaker 3: it was a.
Speaker 1: Big crowd, and they put us up at like the
Speaker 1: big carriage, how like the big house on the property
Speaker 1: where they put up like bridal parties.
Speaker 3: And the guy goes, yeah, this place.
Speaker 1: Is like ten thousand dollars a night, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I'll never stay somewhere.
Speaker 3: This's nice.
Speaker 1: And it was so beautiful, like we walked out onto
Speaker 1: the balcony like mountains and vineyards in front of you.
Speaker 3: It was gorgeous. And you love wines that I love wine.
Speaker 3: So I had a blast. I had a blast. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Great, I wonder if I'll ever go to Napa. Like
Speaker 2: it's just like I don't like.
Speaker 1: Wine, and I wonder i'll go, I know, and it's
Speaker 1: so pretty and it's so nice to just sit outside
Speaker 1: and drink all day. But truly, like I think some
Speaker 1: of these places serve like beer, But like I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's like worth going up to Napa to
Speaker 1: just like have a do a beer run.
Speaker 3: You know, it might just never be a part of
Speaker 3: my story.
Speaker 1: Napa, Sonoma so many places that will be not in
Speaker 1: your but that's okay.
Speaker 2: I got to meet Heather McMahon, who I've never met
Speaker 2: in person.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and I was really happy to meet her.
Speaker 3: That was exciting for me.
Speaker 1: She's like a she's like a person that like had
Speaker 1: this huge ascension and I was like, I don't even
Speaker 1: know what scene she came up in, Like I don't
Speaker 1: really know much.
Speaker 2: About Atlanta, you know, but because she knows she people
Speaker 2: think she's a Republican and I was a part of that.
Speaker 3: Oh she's not. But she just gives like rich southern
Speaker 3: you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she's like awesome and I was really excited
Speaker 2: to meet her.
Speaker 1: That's awesome, that's great. She seems like so she's always
Speaker 1: on much what happens too? Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's always girl.
Speaker 2: I've only been on once, but it's become a pretty
Speaker 2: monumental night.
Speaker 3: I would say it's pretty monumental.
Speaker 1: But you're not still not watching Beverly Hills. You're not
Speaker 1: like you're just not because you're you're in your reading
Speaker 1: era and you haven't caught up on that stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm reading.
Speaker 2: I got even Mortal Kombat I had to watch in
Speaker 2: two days, Like I just I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't say this season of Beverly Hills is
Speaker 1: like a must watch by I'm just curious on your
Speaker 1: opinions on Amanda because she just seems like such a grifter.
Speaker 1: And then in the reunion they kind of like it
Speaker 1: felt like Andy kind of like let her off a
Speaker 1: little easy on the grift. But that's Andy. Everybody do
Speaker 1: be grifting, So I don't know, that's Andy. Speaking of
Speaker 1: Spencer Pratt, I did tell a man in the audience
Speaker 1: at my show, like, you look like Spencer Pratt, and
Speaker 1: they were all laughing. But then I high fived him afterwards,
Speaker 1: So I think we're good. But let's get started.
Speaker 3: This is like one of the best episodes. I'm so
Speaker 3: excited to do it.
Speaker 1: The usual announcements Liza's tour dates are at Glittercheese dot com.
Speaker 1: You guys can get merch at that's messed up live
Speaker 1: dot com. Also we've got the Lewis Lewis Lee Louise
Speaker 1: t shirt and also our Patreon we're doing some fun stuff,
Speaker 1: so get on over there.
Speaker 3: Yeah that's messed up.
Speaker 1: I mean Patreon dot com slash that's messed up. So
Speaker 1: come find us over there, get some extra. If you
Speaker 1: love this, you're gonna get more of it.
Speaker 3: So that's that. Let's get started.
Speaker 1: Okay, Today we are doing the episode Bound, which Sack
Speaker 1: wanted to do forever, a classic classic.
Speaker 3: We definitely if you're having a little bit of.
Speaker 1: Dejevous as we go through it, it's because we did
Speaker 1: have Anthony Rap on the podcast and he did talk
Speaker 1: about this episode a little bit, but we've not covered
Speaker 1: it because people have message just being like, am I crazier?
Speaker 1: Have you done this one? And I'm like, it feels
Speaker 1: crazy we have not done it, and here we are.
Speaker 2: But also if you're oh, who's there's no guests, so
Speaker 2: just no guests, I'm sorry, I don't think that's the same.
Speaker 3: I would have loved Jane Krakowski. Did we even did
Speaker 3: she say no? What happened.
Speaker 1: Yeah, she said she passed, but like, I never see
Speaker 1: her on podcasts that much. And also but I and
Speaker 1: I worked with her on Drag Race, and she was
Speaker 1: so so sweet and she even seemed kind of shy.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if she just like was like, that's
Speaker 1: a long time ago and she only ever did this
Speaker 1: one episode of Us for you. So, but she was
Speaker 1: so sweet when I met her, and I love her.
Speaker 1: Only person I got a photo with that came on
Speaker 1: Drug Race.
Speaker 2: I would like to say we at least the audience
Speaker 2: knows we tried. Yes, we tried. We did our best,
Speaker 2: but we have least get to talk about it. It's
Speaker 2: a really good episode and it's like old, so I
Speaker 2: like it. Yeah, she might have been like that was
Speaker 2: twenty years ago.
Speaker 1: I've made a lot of iconic television between now and then,
Speaker 1: and I can't I can't remember, so who knows.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: So the beginning of the episode is one of my
Speaker 1: favorite tropes, which is a realtor showing someone a huge
Speaker 1: Manhattan Brownstone, going there's no wiggle room on the price
Speaker 1: and it won't stay on.
Speaker 3: The market for long. Then immediately something's not right.
Speaker 1: They notice smash items they quickly stumble upon a gray
Speaker 1: haired woman in a silky robe and a man lying.
Speaker 3: Next to her.
Speaker 2: On then and that's when you know this is going
Speaker 2: to be an old person at and that's it.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, but one of the vulnerable communities. Yes, that
Speaker 3: s few does touch on more than once.
Speaker 1: The prospective home calls the police very wooden and goes,
Speaker 1: I need the police. Two people are dead, and then
Speaker 1: just as she says that, the man starts gasping and
Speaker 1: touching her foot, going olp me help me. So only
Speaker 1: one dead body, cut to o'haleran giving the rundown. The
Speaker 1: deceased woman is Donna Brooks, seventy, no sign of forced entry,
Speaker 1: no security camera. She's been raped and strangled and they
Speaker 1: found traces of seamen. So the old guy is Richard
Speaker 1: Sutton and that's a name, yeah for sure, Richard Sutton.
Speaker 1: And he's possibly had a heart attack. And they tell
Speaker 1: Stabler like you can come with us in the ambulance
Speaker 1: and he's like, sir, what happened? And he's going, Donna, Donna,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, and then they lose his pulse and they
Speaker 1: have stablers start chest compressions.
Speaker 3: He's in VFIB which I've been watching the pit.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of VFIB happening all the time, and
Speaker 1: they have to shock him a couple times, but they
Speaker 1: do get his pulse back and just Benson rolls up
Speaker 1: he's off in the ambulance and she's like, is that
Speaker 1: the victim? And he's like, more like the purp confusing,
Speaker 1: what's happening? Did this man have a heart attack in
Speaker 1: the middle of attacking this woman? No one knows, and
Speaker 1: Stabler's obviously saying stuff like that with little to no
Speaker 1: information and only an accusation. So then after the credits,
Speaker 1: we're at the precinct. Benson and Stabler are filling in
Speaker 1: Daddy Kragan and they're like, well, someton's still unconscious after
Speaker 1: cardiac arrests. He's in the cardiac I see you, and
Speaker 1: he lives alone on the upper east Side and they
Speaker 1: say he keeps to himself. Well, what's he doing with
Speaker 1: the queen of the charity balls? Maybe he's her boyfriend,
Speaker 1: Maybe they had sex. They argued he killed her and
Speaker 1: then he had a heart attack, or maybe he found
Speaker 1: her body and had a heart attack. And Warner gives
Speaker 1: the time of death at ten pm the night before
Speaker 1: and in walks Donna Brooks's daughter.
Speaker 3: She's not happy, obviously.
Speaker 1: And so they have her in wood room blinds because
Speaker 1: she's not a criminal, and they're asking her some questions
Speaker 1: like why are you selling? Why is she selling her
Speaker 1: brown stone? And she's like, the daughter's like, I forced
Speaker 1: her to. She likes her independence, but I just wanted
Speaker 1: her to spend the little time she has left with
Speaker 1: me and her grandkids. Because it turns out Donna was sick.
Speaker 1: She had lymphoma, and the docs gave her like a
Speaker 1: year to live.
Speaker 3: So she goes.
Speaker 1: I called her that morning, but I got the machine.
Speaker 1: I figured she was exercising. And it is two thousand
Speaker 1: and four, so people are still using innstring machines, even
Speaker 1: if they're extremely rich. And her daughter says, she worked
Speaker 1: out at every morning at five am, and she wanted
Speaker 1: to stay fit because there was competition for good men.
Speaker 1: And they're like, oh, so she was getting around, dating around,
Speaker 1: And the daughter's like embarrassed to admit that her mom
Speaker 1: was very sexually active with all sorts of men. And
Speaker 1: she doesn't know the name Richard Sutton, but she goes,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean anything. I don't know the names
Speaker 1: of most of these guys, and they're like, well, can
Speaker 1: you tell us any of the guys, and.
Speaker 3: She like a sludy elderly representation.
Speaker 1: Sludy in seventy, let's do it. You know, come on,
Speaker 1: you're so old.
Speaker 2: Because all you hear about is all of them always
Speaker 2: getting her pies. So I'm glad like you in the homes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Harvey Cohen, the daughter says, was her instructor at
Speaker 1: Hot to Trot. He taught her how to tango, so
Speaker 1: of course we had it right over to the Hot
Speaker 1: to Trot studio. Benson cuts in on old Harvey and
Speaker 1: asks some questions about Donna, and she's like, so are
Speaker 1: you having an affair? And he goes, A gentleman doesn't
Speaker 1: kiss and tell, And then Stabler comes out of nowhere
Speaker 1: with a gentleman doesn't rape and murder his girlfriend. Okay,
Speaker 1: He like, it's one of those It's like one of
Speaker 1: those things, like that time that Finn comes out of
Speaker 1: the sidewalk, comes out of the building, like suddenly, Sailor's
Speaker 1: just there, and he goes, well, I had a date
Speaker 1: with her the night before, but I canceled it because
Speaker 1: she was flirting with another guy. During class, in front
Speaker 1: of everyone. I told her to take her boy toy
Speaker 1: and get out. And the boy toy's name is Ben Pauler,
Speaker 1: and he's young enough to be her son. So now
Speaker 1: we're at Ben's apartment where he's also in a silky robe,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna tell you this is not the last
Speaker 1: piece of silk.
Speaker 3: We see this a lot.
Speaker 1: The wardrobe department was doing a lot of silky shopping
Speaker 1: this week. He's in a silky robe that's like half open,
Speaker 1: telling the cops about how yeah, he and Donna left
Speaker 1: class went back to her place. Stabler obviously, as always,
Speaker 1: is judgmental and grossed out by the forty year old
Speaker 1: age difference. And Ben tells Stabler, you should give older
Speaker 1: women a try, more experience, less inhibited and no chance
Speaker 1: of pregnancy. And he says, Donna's got a lot of
Speaker 1: dough that sweetens the pot, and they're like, had a
Speaker 1: lot of dough, She's dead. The man does not react,
Speaker 1: does not let a single emotion cross his face, and
Speaker 1: he goes, she was fine when I left her.
Speaker 3: No, she was satisfied.
Speaker 1: So does not mourn a woman whose body he was
Speaker 1: inside like yesterday. He just literally is like I didn't
Speaker 1: do it, and I fuck really good. Stabler grabs him
Speaker 1: by his silky little robe collar and asks what time
Speaker 1: he left her, and he goes nine p fifteen and
Speaker 1: he goes can any and Stable's like, can anyone verify that?
Speaker 3: And he goes Marian and on.
Speaker 1: Cue beautiful older woman who looks a lot like the
Speaker 1: dead woman, also in a silky nightgown, emerges out of
Speaker 1: a room with an alibi ready to go. She just
Speaker 1: walks out of the room and goes, I picked Ben
Speaker 1: up from Donna's at nine point fifteen, Like.
Speaker 2: It's just well, if it's right, you know, they're all mature,
Speaker 2: they don't go a fuck, they're just like using this
Speaker 2: guy for sex. But to have her, like to hear
Speaker 2: him talk so shittily about this other woman he's fucking
Speaker 2: like is that not a turn off? Like, ah, at
Speaker 2: least she was rich makes it even better. I'd be like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I guess I'm out of here, like I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't get And again, they're more evolved, they're older.
Speaker 3: Maybe they don't give a fuck, but it is upsetting,
Speaker 3: like you, you know, Donna, you went to the house
Speaker 3: to pick him up, like you don't like that he's
Speaker 3: talking about Donna like this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess when you're in your seventies, it's like
Speaker 1: doggy dog. I don't know, but there's no girl code anymore.
Speaker 1: Who knows. They're just like but all. I just think
Speaker 1: it's weird that he goes Mary and she comes out
Speaker 1: and goes I picked him up at nine fifteen, like,
Speaker 1: was she eavesdropping or what's happening?
Speaker 3: They didn't even ask her a question anyway.
Speaker 1: As they re enter the precinct, Benson's being a little judge, saying, wow,
Speaker 1: Donna really got around, And Finn's got some info for them.
Speaker 1: He's like, Sutton is still intubated, so no one can
Speaker 1: see him, but I did some digging on him. The
Speaker 1: guys had four wives. The first three died of natural causes.
Speaker 1: The fourth one is still with us. She's also loaded,
Speaker 1: but she actually filed a sixty one for DV last year,
Speaker 1: but she dropped the complaint. So and the social Security
Speaker 1: checks go to an address in Queens. So now they're
Speaker 1: in Queen's and Benson is interviewing this woman and she
Speaker 1: does not remember that she's married to Richard. She says,
Speaker 1: Marty was my one true love, and then she talks
Speaker 1: about President Truman sending her a telegram. She has rapidly
Speaker 1: progressing Alzheimer's And Stabler is talking to this man that
Speaker 1: works at the place and he goes, no offense, sir,
Speaker 1: but this place is where you work.
Speaker 3: Is disgusting. Why is this rich lady here?
Speaker 1: And he goes, well, she had a lot of money
Speaker 1: until that snake Sutton got a hold of it. The
Speaker 1: guy filed a complaint. The guy who they're talking to,
Speaker 1: he's like, I filed the complaint, but nothing happened. And
Speaker 1: he also said, yeah, this guy beats women up. The
Speaker 1: last visit, I found her lying on the floor all
Speaker 1: bruised up, and Stabler's pissed. He's like, I you know,
Speaker 1: he doesn't. He doesn't like hearing about anybody getting pissed.
Speaker 1: But he's got a mom, you know, Ellen Burston's his mom,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't like thinking about anyone beating her up.
Speaker 1: So they go talk to Sutton in the hospital. He's
Speaker 1: fully on a breathing tube but awake. They start accusing
Speaker 1: him of stuff, but his mouth is literally stuffed with tubes,
Speaker 1: like he cannot talk, and he says he showed up
Speaker 1: at the house at nine he's writing everything down on
Speaker 1: a piece of paper and they say so.
Speaker 3: Mean to him.
Speaker 2: I mean they think he's guilty, and I get it,
Speaker 2: but he is of tubes, Like you can't stress him out,
Speaker 2: like he's trying to live. I don't know, it seems
Speaker 2: way to aggress that for a person that's breathing with
Speaker 2: a ventilator.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like, could they not give this guy an
Speaker 1: under five? Like I don't understand why they, like why
Speaker 1: they did this whole writing down thing, Like they just
Speaker 1: must have been like, well, we can't afford another extra
Speaker 1: in this one.
Speaker 3: Because they could just have the guy drawing his words.
Speaker 1: So they start accusing him and he's like yeah, and
Speaker 1: he goes, no, I showed up at the house at
Speaker 1: nine am. The door was open. And then they're like,
Speaker 1: where were you at ten pm last night? And he's like,
Speaker 1: home alone, he's writing this all SHARPI legal pad and
Speaker 1: he goes, no, Donna exercises in the morning. All the
Speaker 1: windows were open, it was freezing. I turned up the heat.
Speaker 1: So now they've got to go back to Milinda because
Speaker 1: what's going on.
Speaker 3: I do love this kind of thing. I was just
Speaker 3: about to say I would love when it's science like this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love when it's like, well, we didn't think
Speaker 1: about the kiln, right, wasn't there an episode with a kiln?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Like heated up the whole thing. Like I love that,
Speaker 3: that whole thing.
Speaker 1: That's like you can sort of fake when a body
Speaker 1: is killed or by or like just the elements happen,
Speaker 1: and well the course.
Speaker 2: Think about doctor Michael Badden, and I think about mister
Speaker 2: Roger and the Helpers, and like, so much of police
Speaker 2: and justice and everything is a nightmare. But I just
Speaker 2: love when science and dedication prevail. Yes, yeah, obviously not
Speaker 2: the crime that I'll be talking about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's not a quick solution there, a nightmare, decades long,
Speaker 3: systemic nightmare. But oh I can't wait.
Speaker 1: But I mean I literally wrote in my notes. Now
Speaker 1: Melinda's clearing everything up with science. It turns out that
Speaker 1: the working out would have brought the rigor on faster
Speaker 1: of her body, and then the cold causes the decline
Speaker 1: in the body temperature. When they do all the math,
Speaker 1: Melinda tells them that it turns out that Donna was
Speaker 1: actually killed early this morning at six am, so not
Speaker 1: the night before.
Speaker 3: She was killed earlier.
Speaker 1: So How the fuck did this like creepy, creepy wife
Speaker 1: beater guy like know all of that. Like how did
Speaker 1: he know when he walked in to her house, even
Speaker 1: if he was there to fuck? Like, how did he
Speaker 1: know that? Like she didn't die the night before. It's
Speaker 1: like weird that he did that. He would know that anyway. Oh,
Speaker 1: maybe because she called him and said come over, let's fuck,
Speaker 1: and then he was dead.
Speaker 3: But like at six am, she was dead. This is
Speaker 3: really weird.
Speaker 1: I don't know why this guy's coming over at nine
Speaker 1: Maybe they had a date anyway, what do you mean? Huh?
Speaker 3: Or fucking?
Speaker 1: They're fucking? But like at one point did she say
Speaker 1: come over? Was it like the night before or was
Speaker 1: it like at standing appointment? Yes, she's dead at nine am.
Speaker 1: She's dead at six am. So anyway, Melinda says that
Speaker 1: she could help, and she goes, these ligature remarks are unusual, okay,
Speaker 1: And whatever strangled Donna, the killer took it with him,
Speaker 1: and so it's probably not this guy because he didn't
Speaker 1: have some kind of special rope on him when they
Speaker 1: found him. So she forwarded the image to the FBI,
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, let's get Huong to speed things up.
Speaker 1: He's our FBI guy on the inside. He confirms that
Speaker 1: the ligature is from a rope called static kern mantle,
Speaker 1: a specific climbing rope that doesn't fray. There's fifteen matches
Speaker 1: it in ViCAP but then with this type of mo
Speaker 1: and then they narrow it down to two after they
Speaker 1: enter in like the details about old age and whatever,
Speaker 1: and they find two other victims, Susan Zelman sixty five,
Speaker 1: killed two years ago in Brooklyn, and Claudia Wooding seventy,
Speaker 1: killed three years ago in Piermont, which is like thirty
Speaker 1: minutes upstate from Manhattan. Three women over sixty, all from
Speaker 1: the Metro area, all strangled with this specific rope. We've
Speaker 1: got a serial killer preying on the elderly. Done done
Speaker 1: So top of K two, they're at the precinct. They've
Speaker 1: got a lot of dead photos of old ladies. Put
Speaker 1: paste it up like it's a real collage of dead ladies,
Speaker 1: old ladies, and it's very jarring. And Craigan is adding
Speaker 1: the detail that all of these women were also rich. Okay,
Speaker 1: the gang is all talking about how old people are lonely, vulnerable.
Speaker 1: They're good targets and also the money doesn't hurt, you know.
Speaker 1: Craigan wants to help, wants to keep them o in
Speaker 1: house to avoid a copycat. One of the victims, named Claudia,
Speaker 1: had a son named Eddie. He's a schmuck. She disinherited
Speaker 1: him when he lost a bunch of money in the
Speaker 1: suck market. Now he owns a fancy car dealership. There
Speaker 1: were no suspects in Susan's murder. Her husband is wheelchair
Speaker 1: bound with arthritis, so he wasn't like a big suspect.
Speaker 1: And Craigan traffic cops everyone to go interview the deadbeat
Speaker 1: son and the widower, and we got to link these
Speaker 1: three women to each other. So now they're talking to
Speaker 1: Marvin Zelman. He's being pushed by a nurse while they
Speaker 1: walk him in the park, and he's telling Benson and Stable,
Speaker 1: that stabler that he'll never forgive himself for his wife's death.
Speaker 1: He was out playing bridge and she'd be alive if
Speaker 1: he hadn't gone out that night. And then meanwhile, Finn
Speaker 1: and Munch are interviewing the greasy son and he's like,
Speaker 1: Savior energy, I didn't kill her, and like we're flipping
Speaker 1: flopping between the two interviews. Greasy Eddie says, the bitch
Speaker 1: didn't leave me a dime, but she was about to
Speaker 1: kick the bucket anyway. She had lung cancer, and then
Speaker 1: Marvin is saying, yeah, Susan actually had breast cancer. But
Speaker 1: the day she was killed, they told her she was
Speaker 1: in remission. Who was the oncologist. And now they're in
Speaker 1: the office of doctor David Brelsford and they asked the
Speaker 1: doctor about these two ladies and he's like, oh, unfortunately
Speaker 1: they're both dead. And then he goes, I believe they
Speaker 1: were both murdered. Yeah, yeah, your memory is serving you correctly.
Speaker 1: These women were both actually murdered brutally. You'd think you
Speaker 1: would just remember like two of your patients in the
Speaker 1: past couple of years just getting murdered. He's like, I
Speaker 1: think they were murdered. So the doc's like, what do
Speaker 1: you guys like sniffing around about, like what do you
Speaker 1: want from me? And they're like, He's like, if I
Speaker 1: wanted to kill someone, you wouldn't know about it. You know,
Speaker 1: like basically doctors know how to do this the right
Speaker 1: way and very cool, very cool to admit that and
Speaker 1: say that. And they were like, where were you at
Speaker 1: six am, and he goes home and I live alone
Speaker 1: and stablers like, dude, we've got three dead women and
Speaker 1: they're all connected to you. And he tells them there's
Speaker 1: a whole team that cancer patients, so they're probably connected
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. There's the doctors, the nurses,
Speaker 1: the social workers, and then there's at home care. Sometimes
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, who do you use for that, and
Speaker 1: he goes, I use RDH. It's run by doctor Matt Spivak.
Speaker 1: My patients wouldn't settle for less. So now we're at
Speaker 1: RDH where we see the icon the legend. Jane Krakowski
Speaker 1: obviously thirty rock. Kimmi Schmidt, a Broadway star, maybe one
Speaker 1: of the most talented people we have alive. She's playing
Speaker 1: Emma Spevak, the nurse manager at ARDH, and she's like
Speaker 1: doctor Spevak is in a meeting, and she's so subdued
Speaker 1: in this, Like she's so different than like Jenna Maroni,
Speaker 1: you know, like and she's like, he's in a meeting,
Speaker 1: can I help you with something? And you know, they're like,
Speaker 1: oh are you guys?
Speaker 3: Are you his wife? And she's like, I'm his sister.
Speaker 1: And so Emma throws hippa immediately to the wind and
Speaker 1: confirms all three of these women are patients of theirs,
Speaker 1: and that nurse. I mean, I guess when someone's dead
Speaker 1: there's not as much hippa. But I don't even think
Speaker 1: they told the hitt she's a nurse.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: Nurses have to follow hip as well, okay, And so like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I had to do hippo training when I
Speaker 1: was a receptionist at my mom's office.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: Wow, So even even I was hippo compliant at one point.
Speaker 1: Now I'll tell anyone no, and she.
Speaker 3: Goes, uh, yep.
Speaker 1: All three women were patients of ours, and the nurse
Speaker 1: Deval was the primary for all of them. So now
Speaker 1: doctor Spivack enters a chat and it is friend of
Speaker 1: the pod and Broadway star Anthony Rapp, and he's like,
Speaker 1: you must be here about Donna Brooks. I saw it
Speaker 1: on the news and like, yeah, or maybe the other
Speaker 1: two women that have been murdered in the past couple
Speaker 1: of years that all have worked with your company.
Speaker 2: But old people just die, you know, and that's all
Speaker 2: were murdered. Yeah, for the sure, but I want I
Speaker 2: don't think it's that much of a smoking gun, because
Speaker 2: in my head it's like everyone's dying, some murdered, some
Speaker 2: not or maybe I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
Speaker 3: A potpourri of murdered not murdered. You know, it's like
Speaker 3: who knows. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think the murders would stick out in my head,
Speaker 1: but I guess not. And they bring up these two
Speaker 1: other patients and nurse Devall and they go, where can
Speaker 1: we find her? And they're like him, you sexist?
Speaker 3: You know? Does he's a male nurse.
Speaker 1: And it turns out Gary Deval, the nurse, was fired
Speaker 1: a few weeks back a patient accused him of stealing
Speaker 1: which patient? You ask, Donna Brooks? So where's Gary working now?
Speaker 1: Emma goes Meals on Wheels Now. They always reminds me
Speaker 1: of Twin Peaks. I don't know if anyone else has
Speaker 1: the same thing that watches Twin Peaks because Laura Palmer
Speaker 1: worked for Meals on Wheels and there was all this
Speaker 1: sketchy meals on wheelshit that happened in that show. They
Speaker 1: find Gary mid Meal on wheel and they ask him
Speaker 1: to take a ride with them to talk about Donna.
Speaker 3: And it's right as missus Rabinowitz comes to the door.
Speaker 3: She's very sad. She's like, don't leave, Gary.
Speaker 1: No one else visits me, and it's sad. So in
Speaker 1: cement room bars, Gary's like, I didn't steal from Donna.
Speaker 1: The bitch is lying, and they tell them, well, the
Speaker 1: bitch is dead, and he goes, well, I hated her,
Speaker 1: but I didn't kill her. And he said getting fired
Speaker 1: was the best thing that happened to me. And they're like, so,
Speaker 1: why do you have her house keys? And Benson asked,
Speaker 1: and he goes, I just forgot to return them. And
Speaker 1: then Sabler pulls out a watch with an engraving that
Speaker 1: says to Larry from Donna my beloved husband or whatever,
Speaker 1: and they're like, you forget to return this too, and
Speaker 1: he goes, she ducked me twenty dollars for being ten
Speaker 1: minutes late. Sabler goes, you took a ten thousand dollars
Speaker 1: Rolex fair trade, like it is wild. Like first he's
Speaker 1: calling this woman a bitch, saying she's lying, but he
Speaker 1: absolutely did steal from her, like I'm sorry, she's a
Speaker 1: Karen and reported you for being late, but you are
Speaker 1: stealing and car and Gary goes that old bat gave
Speaker 1: half a million to feed the pigeon.
Speaker 3: She didn't need the lousy watch.
Speaker 1: And then he goes, well, did you steal from these
Speaker 1: two women as well? And he flashes pictures of the
Speaker 1: other two and he goes, no, not Susan, I would
Speaker 1: never She's a sweetheart. And he's never seen Claudia in
Speaker 1: his life, even though RDH says that he was her nurse,
Speaker 1: and he goes, they're lying. Someone's setting me up. Check
Speaker 1: the files. So now Craigan wants to know if we
Speaker 1: can subpoena RDH's records, and Casey is there saying, I'll
Speaker 1: get started on the paperwork, but I want to get
Speaker 1: the files authenticated since he's crying. Frame job. So Casey
Speaker 1: goes to this forensic expert, this forensic document expert to
Speaker 1: get the files checked out, and they're like, well, Deval's
Speaker 1: name is on all the files, and she's like, ah,
Speaker 1: so he was lying. And then the woman goes not
Speaker 1: necessarily check this out. The two signatures are totally identical,
Speaker 1: and no one signs their name the same way ever,
Speaker 1: exact every time, like they slide them over each other
Speaker 1: on the screen on the slide and they are carbon
Speaker 1: copies of each other, which they call, oh, this is
Speaker 1: a guy actually talking to them, and he goes, we
Speaker 1: call this transposition forgery. So someone copied the signature, put
Speaker 1: it in the files, and then copy the files so
Speaker 1: that the pace job would be undetectable.
Speaker 3: And Deval was right. It turns out he is being
Speaker 3: set up.
Speaker 1: So now at the precinct, Stabler and Kragan are trying
Speaker 1: to figure this all out. They're like, it's got to
Speaker 1: be someone at ardy age. Deval is a good fall guy,
Speaker 1: like he is a thief, but like, why kill these women?
Speaker 1: And they're all like, well, they were all rich, and
Speaker 1: then Casey walks in and goes, yeah, someone made a
Speaker 1: mint off their debts, and I've got the wills to
Speaker 1: prove it. The beneficiary of all these wills was done
Speaker 1: done the Golden Memories Foundation, which is led by doctor
Speaker 1: Matt Spevac, So they think the doc's been killing old
Speaker 1: ladies for their money. In interrogation with his lawyer, Speedvac
Speaker 1: is denying it, and his lawyer goes, he's a well
Speaker 1: well known and respected doctor, and it's like, so is
Speaker 1: every doctor that has been fucking guilty of murdering their
Speaker 1: wife molesting their patients doing whatever. Doctors are not above anything,
Speaker 1: and he's like, why would I murder them? And they're
Speaker 1: like the money, and he goes, I don't need the money.
Speaker 1: The money goes to my organization and my company does well,
Speaker 1: I don't need these ladies' money. I started Golden Memories
Speaker 1: to give back. And then's goes, well, you gave these
Speaker 1: three women back to God. And Speedac's lawyer I should
Speaker 1: mention is Nicky Stains, who interestingly is in two episodes
Speaker 1: during season five and then they don't bring her back
Speaker 1: till season eighteen, and she's in seasons eighteen through twenty.
Speaker 3: Three, both as a lawyer and as a victim.
Speaker 1: She gets assaulted by Titus Welliver aka Bosh. And she's
Speaker 1: a good character, like a good recurring character, because she's
Speaker 1: like a bulldog lawyer.
Speaker 3: But then she becomes a victim.
Speaker 1: And you know, and she's a good lawyer too, because
Speaker 1: she's like, you guys have nothing. We're out of here, right.
Speaker 1: Speedvac looks a very smug in the bullpen. Stabler's pissed.
Speaker 1: He's like, I want to get this guy, and Wang's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure he's guilty. And Stabler's like, you
Speaker 1: know something we don't know or is this just like
Speaker 1: a professional courtesy of Wong's like I'm giving you my
Speaker 1: professional opinion. He's like a doctor would have covered his
Speaker 1: tracks better, Like this is very sloppy, Like what's his motive?
Speaker 1: And Stabler's like money the best motive in the world,
Speaker 1: and Hwang's like, no, these murders were too personal to
Speaker 1: have been committed for profit, Like choking the life out
Speaker 1: of three elderly women is an act of rage, which
Speaker 1: is like true, Like if you're taking care of them,
Speaker 1: you could easily like put something in their food or
Speaker 1: whatever if you just wanted like them gone for their money,
Speaker 1: you know, like this is a rage act. So Craigan
Speaker 1: is like, we don't even know if Spivak got a
Speaker 1: dime of this money personally. But Novak says, we don't
Speaker 1: have enough to subpoena his finances. But the Golden Memories finances,
Speaker 1: Benson points out our public record because it's a nonprofit.
Speaker 1: So let's have a forensic account and check and see
Speaker 1: if the books are being cooked. So now we're talking
Speaker 1: to a lady forensic accountant who tells them that last
Speaker 1: year Golden Memories took in six hundred and seventy five
Speaker 1: thousand dollars and most of it was used to pay
Speaker 1: for two indigent patients. It's a lot, you know, that's
Speaker 1: like three three hundred plus k to Maria Franco and
Speaker 1: Andrea Robbins. And that's a lot of charity for two people,
Speaker 1: they say, and they and the woman goes, yeah, especially
Speaker 1: two dead ones. I checked with Social Security. These two
Speaker 1: women have both been dead since nineteen ninety six. She
Speaker 1: made us pay for it. She really played. She had
Speaker 1: fun that day at work, that lady. Yeah, she's like
Speaker 1: once in a while as a forensic account and I
Speaker 1: get to do something kind of fun.
Speaker 3: And here we go.
Speaker 1: So that's that's enough for a search warrant. Let's get going.
Speaker 1: So now Finn is in this nice ass apartment, just full.
Speaker 1: He's in Speedback's apartment and he's just fully narrating what
Speaker 1: he sees. He goes, look at this place, beautiful view,
Speaker 1: fancy art, expensive antiques. It's like very tell, don't show,
Speaker 1: I mean, we're seeing it. And then he's also telling
Speaker 1: us and it's all unpaid for. Apparently his credit cards
Speaker 1: are all maxed out on are all maxed out and
Speaker 1: it turns out the culprit is gambling from Atlantic City
Speaker 1: to Foxwoods, which is a place I've had some fun.
Speaker 1: He has been working up debts. They check his answering
Speaker 1: machine and it's a mean voice going Speedvacy elated and
Speaker 1: pay up and we're coming over.
Speaker 3: So Finn like, you know.
Speaker 1: Then Finn clocks a pick of speedback rock climbing, and
Speaker 1: Munch finds all his climbing gear and the rope is
Speaker 1: the possible murder weapon. So now back at RDH, Emma's
Speaker 1: walking and talking with Benson and Stabler. She's asking like,
Speaker 1: can this wait. My brother's in a meeting with a client.
Speaker 1: And she's like, Matt would never hurt anyone. And then
Speaker 1: obviously I can't wait.
Speaker 3: They're there. They're like, no, get him.
Speaker 1: So she opens the door to Matt's office and he's
Speaker 1: midpitched to this old lady and he's like, he's like, God,
Speaker 1: damn it, Emma, you dumb, dumb bitch. I told you
Speaker 1: no interruptions when I'm pitching, right, And then he sees
Speaker 1: the cops and they arrest him and cuff him in
Speaker 1: front of this lady and Emma's like, and he goes, Emma,
Speaker 1: what did you tell them?
Speaker 3: And he goes, she goes nothing, I swear Matt like.
Speaker 1: And also Jane Kerkowski's character seems very pilled up, like
Speaker 1: she seems like not all there right, Like she's very disassociating. Right,
Speaker 1: a baby voice, Yeah, she has a baby voice, but
Speaker 1: she's also kind of like her eyes aren't focused. Like
Speaker 1: she's playing this very well. I think she's excellent in this.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm surprised she didn't get like a nomination for
Speaker 1: like a guest at Maybe she did. I don't think so, though,
Speaker 1: because I think I just went through all the nominations
Speaker 1: the other day and she did not. At arraignment, Spevac
Speaker 1: pleads not guilty. Casey wants hermand he's a flight risk,
Speaker 1: and the judge is like, and he's he's trying to
Speaker 1: fight it, and the judge is like, unfortunately, sir, I
Speaker 1: have an eighty year old mother.
Speaker 3: So Spevac swears he didn't kill anyone.
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, Baylist said at five hundred thousand, Nicki stains
Speaker 1: tells Novak, listen, Casey, he'll plead out to the fraud,
Speaker 1: and Novak is like, no way. He pleads to three
Speaker 1: counts of murder two and I'll take the death penalty
Speaker 1: off the table. And Emma's like, but he's innocent, and
Speaker 1: the lures like, don't worry, babe, they're bluffing.
Speaker 3: They don't have shit.
Speaker 1: So next up, Novak and Benson is Tabler are walking
Speaker 1: outside and Casey's like, you know, she's kind of right,
Speaker 1: Like the fraud case is solid, but I don't have
Speaker 1: anything on these murders. Everything is circumstantial. Well, let's see
Speaker 1: if we can get anything from the sister. If she
Speaker 1: was helping with the fraud, we might be able to pressure.
Speaker 3: Her a little bit.
Speaker 1: Right, So when they roll up to Emma Spevack's building, surprise, surprise,
Speaker 1: cops are already there and they're like, oh, yeah, the
Speaker 1: gal from the nursing agency was attacked and almost choked
Speaker 1: to death. So when they get up there, Emma's like
Speaker 1: lying in a chair with this like little oxygen mask
Speaker 1: like pressed against her mouth and breathing, and there's choke
Speaker 1: marks around her neck, like really really like not choke marks,
Speaker 1: like ligature marks, and she won't say who attacked her.
Speaker 1: But then she starts talking about how her brother's been
Speaker 1: under so much stress and he needed some money and
Speaker 1: I told him I wouln't give him any more money,
Speaker 1: and he freaked out, Please don't hurt him. Then we
Speaker 1: got to the cops entering Speedvac's suite apartment, but no
Speaker 1: one is there, and they check his phone and on
Speaker 1: the caller ID there's a call at five five am
Speaker 1: from someone named Vivian Callous. So at Vivian Callis's home,
Speaker 1: they bust in and find yet another dead woman in
Speaker 1: a silky pajama situation, and Stabler then finds Speedback himself
Speaker 1: dead on the floor. And I do remember Anthony Rapp
Speaker 1: telling us that like Maloney pissed him off in this
Speaker 1: scene because he was lying there for so long covered
Speaker 1: in blood, and Christopher Moloney was like taking his time
Speaker 1: or like coming late, being late, or like wanting to
Speaker 1: do the scene over and over getting out. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was like really making him mad because he's like
Speaker 1: I'm freezing, I'm like lying here covered in blood.
Speaker 3: Can we just move this on? Anyway? Go back and
Speaker 3: live like that episode he took it was nice.
Speaker 1: If anyone is interested in learning more of this, go
Speaker 1: back and listen to episode twenty seven of our podcast
Speaker 1: Lessons Learn Yeah he was an early get Lessons Learned
Speaker 1: where he plays a victim in like a school sex
Speaker 1: abuse scandal and from like when he was younger, and
Speaker 1: then he's.
Speaker 3: Also in this episode, so he talked about both and
Speaker 3: I can't believe it's twenty seven. I know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So so the act ends on Speedvac's dead body.
Speaker 1: So top of act four, there's zipin Broadway Legend Anthony
Speaker 1: wrap up into a body bag and Stabler is trying
Speaker 1: to rub it in with Huang being like that's our
Speaker 1: serial killer, and Huang's like okay. So Vivian Kallis shot
Speaker 1: him in the heart. She must be pretty good with
Speaker 1: a gun. And then our girl friend of the Pod,
Speaker 1: Judith Ciper CSU tech Judas Ciper is there going Actually
Speaker 1: she shot once and hit the ceiling and then the
Speaker 1: next shot was lucky and she got him and the
Speaker 1: lights were out, so she shot him in the dark,
Speaker 1: perfectly in the heart, like what's happening? And Csu found
Speaker 1: jewelry in Spevac's pockets. He was gonna rob her for
Speaker 1: some cash and probably hit the road, but she had
Speaker 1: a gun. The gun is registered to her, and her
Speaker 1: cause of death was a stroke and Huang is suspicious.
Speaker 1: He goes, I don't see any medications for hypertension or
Speaker 1: blood thinners, like, she doesn't seem to have any risk
Speaker 1: factors for stroke. And Stabler's like, well, she's an eighty
Speaker 1: year old woman with a man in her bedroom trying
Speaker 1: to kill her, like she was scared, and he goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: so scared that she popped a shot off in the
Speaker 1: dark that hit him in the Heartstone doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3: At least someone's come to work to think.
Speaker 1: Yes, Because this is the problem with the cops is
Speaker 1: sometimes they go immediately with the first thing, and it's
Speaker 1: not always the thing right.
Speaker 2: But then during stucky it's the opposite. Sometimes what was
Speaker 2: the little thing?
Speaker 3: You know? Sometimes it is just.
Speaker 1: When you hear Zebra's when you hear hoof beats, it's horses,
Speaker 1: not zebras.
Speaker 3: But for that one, it was Zebra's right.
Speaker 2: And not to break again, I'm sure I brought it up,
Speaker 2: but I have peta Zebra Zori.
Speaker 3: I'll never forget you. Ooh, that's exciting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the San Diego zoo and then you know, Zari's
Speaker 2: friend was Sophila r and the donkey, and then they
Speaker 2: bring the donkey in for a play day every single
Speaker 2: day across the zoo.
Speaker 1: Oh, by the way, I got clarification on the goats.
Speaker 1: Kara and Liza. The goats are sisters. Liza already had
Speaker 1: babies and she named them after Simpson's characters.
Speaker 3: Oh my mind. Kara's babies are Rosie and Oscar.
Speaker 1: Wow. Got I'll look up the Simpson's characters. I have
Speaker 1: the message from her. I'm sorry I forgot them right now.
Speaker 3: It's probably Yeah, I'd like some. I'd like to pass
Speaker 3: those along.
Speaker 2: So, k Melinda, I'd like to know how my goats
Speaker 2: are doing. Yeah, you're god goats.
Speaker 1: K Melinda were at her house and she's explaining how
Speaker 1: Vivian did have a stroke but it wasn't caused by fear.
Speaker 1: She goes, I almost missed it because her skin is wrinkled.
Speaker 1: But there's a puncture mark on her neck and the
Speaker 1: talk screen was negative. So my guess is that what
Speaker 1: she was injected with is air. And of course this
Speaker 1: is where we all learned about an air embalass. Like
Speaker 1: one of my you know, favorite learnings of the along
Speaker 1: with Pika and all the other things we've learned, is
Speaker 1: an air embliss is just like a tiny shot of
Speaker 1: air into the coroated artery, which can cause a stroke
Speaker 1: because it acts as a claw, blocking blood flow to
Speaker 1: the brain. We know that Spevac didn't die of natural causes,
Speaker 1: and now you're saying she didn't die of natural causes either.
Speaker 1: There must have been a third person in that room.
Speaker 1: And Melinda goes, well, only a health professional would know
Speaker 1: what an air embolace is and how to do it properly.
Speaker 1: And the only other person with the access to all
Speaker 1: these women who's a health professional.
Speaker 3: Is Emma Speedback.
Speaker 1: So at the precinct, they're running through the scenario, like
Speaker 1: Emma kills Vivian and then calls Matt over to her apartment,
Speaker 1: then kills him and puts Vivian's prints on the gun.
Speaker 1: Then then they're like, and then Emma strangled herself is
Speaker 1: then they're like, but then who strangled Emma?
Speaker 3: Because she was strangled.
Speaker 1: These people have been dead for a few hours, and
Speaker 1: Emma was strangled afterwards, and they're like, she strangled herself.
Speaker 1: She probably ditched the syringe somewhere, like you're not going
Speaker 1: to find the syringe, And then Huang throws stable or
Speaker 1: some climbing rope and goes strangle me, and he goes,
Speaker 1: I'll try. It's like very flirtatious for a second.
Speaker 3: Better too about it's.
Speaker 1: Very like choke me, daddy, right, even though the last
Speaker 1: episode we did just talked about how you know that's
Speaker 1: usually not great, but.
Speaker 2: I know I was thinking, I can't believe we're doing
Speaker 2: two choking right now. Back, Yeah, but it's found to
Speaker 2: happen right now. I'm choking myself slowly with smoke for decades,
Speaker 2: That's what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: So he is essentially demonstrating that if you're Matt Speback,
Speaker 1: you're six feet tall, you're probably choking these women. The
Speaker 1: marks are going to look a certain way because you're
Speaker 1: taller than them. But the way that the rope is
Speaker 1: angled downwards on all these women, it was probably Emma
Speaker 1: who did it, because she's like five foot three, and
Speaker 1: they're like, we need a confession or she walks on
Speaker 1: five murders. So they show up at Emma's house and
Speaker 1: she's like, I don't really want to talk right now,
Speaker 1: and they're like come on, and she goes, okay, come
Speaker 1: on in.
Speaker 3: It really takes them no time.
Speaker 1: She's like, truly such a Pushover's part of her character
Speaker 1: and she's like watching.
Speaker 3: She's like, I'm learning.
Speaker 2: Whenever there's an old timy like a projector a projection,
Speaker 2: what are the words like a screen of projector old videos?
Speaker 3: Blurry? Nothing good, you cannot reminis. Yeah, it's the Carol.
Speaker 1: It's the Carol Burnette episode where she's like, you know
Speaker 1: when you go in there and someone's watching.
Speaker 3: But isn't it the j What isn't the one with
Speaker 3: the hoarders there's a video playing? Or is that a book?
Speaker 3: Am I making? Yeah? Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: I think he's I think Wallace Shawn's got a video
Speaker 1: at some point for sure.
Speaker 2: You know the Wallace Shawn play that John Early is
Speaker 2: in his over three hours long with two intermissions?
Speaker 3: Yeah right, yeah, right, Am I gonna go to that? Wait?
Speaker 1: Did I already say sorry for telling you I thought
Speaker 1: that closed? I realized previews were over here. I no,
Speaker 1: I've been talking to people who saw it. I got
Speaker 1: it closed. I literally, I know, like right after we
Speaker 1: I said that to you guys, it was us on
Speaker 1: an interview, and I went back and I go, oh god,
Speaker 1: it was just the pre had closed. Yea, but the
Speaker 1: thing is just starting. I just thought it was. I
Speaker 1: really thought it was done because I was trying to
Speaker 1: see if John Early would be in LA for something anyway.
Speaker 1: So they they she's watching the old timey Clark Clark
Speaker 1: Griswold Casey, what is it?
Speaker 3: Seven millimeters? What do you call it? Eight millimeter films seven?
Speaker 1: That's eight milimeter Okay, So she's watching eight millimeter, like
Speaker 1: you know, spools of old home videos and and she's
Speaker 1: and she's like, uh, watching just old videos of her
Speaker 1: brother who who is allegedly a serial killer and also
Speaker 1: tried to allegedly kill you a few hours ago.
Speaker 3: So you're just watching these videos.
Speaker 1: And in the home video, it's really obvious, like you
Speaker 1: only see a few seconds of this home video.
Speaker 3: The mom is just pushing Matt on a swing.
Speaker 1: Matt is a light of her fucking life, straight up,
Speaker 1: ignoring Emma, Like Emma's sitting on a swing nearby, is
Speaker 1: not getting a single push, not a smile, not a glance.
Speaker 1: And then there's more video of mom and Matt dancing
Speaker 1: around while Emma just like leans on a it's really wild,
Speaker 1: and they go boy mom behavior, yes, very boy mom.
Speaker 1: And she's like, she's like, when does your mom die?
Speaker 1: They ask her, and she goes, seven years ago, how
Speaker 1: did she die a stroke?
Speaker 3: Interesting?
Speaker 1: She turns off the home movies and they asked her, Emma,
Speaker 1: who choked you? And she goes, I told you it
Speaker 1: was my brother. And she goes, well, the problem is
Speaker 1: and she goes, I already told you this, Why are
Speaker 1: you torturing me? And they go, well, the problem is
Speaker 1: when you called us, your brother was already dead. So
Speaker 1: and she goes, well, I passed out. I didn't call nine. Well,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I said nine to eleven.
Speaker 3: I read it.
Speaker 1: She goes, I passed out. I didn't call nine one
Speaker 1: one until I came to. And the music is swelling,
Speaker 1: so like we know we're about to get something good.
Speaker 3: And Emma kind of knows she's caught.
Speaker 1: And when they tell her like they've ruled Matt out
Speaker 1: on the death of Vivian callis, Emma's like, well, if
Speaker 1: I think of anything, I'll make sure to call you
Speaker 1: right away. So now Stable and Huang are trying to
Speaker 1: sell Novak on exooming the body of Spevac's death love
Speaker 1: an exhamation. We love to wake the dead.
Speaker 2: I want to know the costs of it.
Speaker 1: It's a lot I have to imagine it's a fucking
Speaker 1: lot to do it.
Speaker 3: Okay, we do like to wake the death, oh we do.
Speaker 1: There's just no way that that's a cheap thing, especially
Speaker 1: because it's like the city probably has to do it.
Speaker 3: You know, they're overcharging for everything.
Speaker 1: They got to dig it up, they gotta jack open
Speaker 1: that coffin, they probably have to replace it. Then later
Speaker 1: they've got to bring them to the medical examiner. Then
Speaker 1: it's the medical examiner's time of re examining this body,
Speaker 1: which probably involves all this technology to like rehydrate skin
Speaker 1: and shit like that. I bet it's a very expensive question.
Speaker 1: And we have we have listeners who work in morgues
Speaker 1: and stuff. So if anybody knows the general ballpark of
Speaker 1: an exhamation, let us know. I'm not checking ai. Okay,
Speaker 1: And who do you have to petition to?
Speaker 2: I want to know who's This is something that we
Speaker 2: could ask doctor Michael Batten maybe one day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the excavation petition board?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: What's that? Yeah? I don't know. I don't know because
Speaker 3: I don't know why judge just grants it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like based on what and then they have
Speaker 2: to pay for like based on what I want it.
Speaker 2: I want to know do you need evidence for it?
Speaker 2: Or if I'm the kid, I could be like, I
Speaker 2: want my mom dug up.
Speaker 1: I think if there's enough circumstantial Yeah, if there's new
Speaker 1: evidence in a case too, and you need to test DNA,
Speaker 1: they'll ex they'll e zoom someone. Well, this is what
Speaker 1: happens because okay, so now they explain that Matt got
Speaker 1: all the attention. This this gal is killing old ladies
Speaker 1: to get back at her mother for not loving her enough.
Speaker 1: She set her brother up, she used his climbing rope,
Speaker 1: and we think that the mom was Emma's first victim.
Speaker 1: And Emma's not gonna let us dig up her mother
Speaker 1: and she's the only like living kin. So do you
Speaker 1: know any friendly judges? Cut to knock, knock, knock on
Speaker 1: a door. He opens it, but Vincenzo from It takes two.
Speaker 1: It's Judge Joseph Turhun played by Philip Bosco, and he
Speaker 1: sees Novak standing there and he's like, what the hell
Speaker 1: do you want? And he's like, I'm in the middle
Speaker 1: of something pretty important and he lets her come in
Speaker 1: and we see it's kind of one of the best
Speaker 1: scenes we've ever seen. It's basically it's basically that famous
Speaker 1: poster of dogs playing poker, only it's all the iconic
Speaker 1: judges from SVU that play poker together.
Speaker 2: Well, and what he's got thing with judges and poker,
Speaker 2: because this is a big part of the movie Rounders
Speaker 2: as well. And I'm assuming this happens a few other
Speaker 2: times or it's just these two and they're that important
Speaker 2: to me. But the movie Rounders, there's judges playing poker
Speaker 2: and like he's the pot, you know, he like impresses
Speaker 2: them and tries to get an internship.
Speaker 3: You know, I guess it makes sense. It's like old
Speaker 3: men with money.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but I mean, you know what, our
Speaker 1: girl Lena Petrovski's there too. It's Judge Ridden or Ridden Hoer.
Speaker 1: It's Judge Bradley and Judge Wiler. So it's a lot
Speaker 1: of fun judges and they're all looking at their cards.
Speaker 1: Casey greets them all and goes, I've had this nightmare before,
Speaker 1: only I was naked and Petrovski barely up and goes
Speaker 1: charming like she's so good, and.
Speaker 3: Then I don't I'm not team Novak here. I'm like
Speaker 3: that was weird, but I guess yeah.
Speaker 1: I think she's trying to make a joke because she's like, so,
Speaker 1: she's so nervous, like she's in front of all these
Speaker 1: judges that whatever. And then cause it's like you're already
Speaker 1: asking for a bit of a stretch and then you're
Speaker 1: going to ask it in front of all these judges.
Speaker 1: So she explains what she's there for, and he goes,
Speaker 1: you want me to disrupt the sanctity of the dead
Speaker 1: on yours say so?
Speaker 3: And she goes, well, I've.
Speaker 1: Got a convincing but long argument that will disrupt the
Speaker 1: sanctity of your poker game, and so literally, just to
Speaker 1: not interrupt this poker game, he signs it and tells
Speaker 1: her to get the fuck out of there. I mean
Speaker 1: that's what happens. Like she kind of knew when to go,
Speaker 1: so she's smart. I don't know if her argument would
Speaker 1: have actually convinced him if she had gone to him
Speaker 1: at like, you know, the lunch hour in his chambers.
Speaker 1: But now we're at the graveyard with Melinda and she's
Speaker 1: explaining that. They're like, what do you think the condition
Speaker 1: will be? Like this body's been in the ground for
Speaker 1: seven years, and she's like, well, new York State requires
Speaker 1: cadavers be embalmed, so the skin should be intact in
Speaker 1: order to find this like pinprick that's seven years old.
Speaker 1: Although I saw something in the wiki that says that
Speaker 1: New York State actually does not require cadavers to be embalmed,
Speaker 1: so that's a inconsistency, but I don't I didn't dig
Speaker 1: into it deep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Benson and Stabler.
Speaker 1: Benson and Stabler start checking out the found the stone.
Speaker 3: You've found the embalming Hole plot.
Speaker 1: It just happened to be the wiki, which I use
Speaker 1: for a lot of my like casting, just to check
Speaker 1: who's no of course you or like, So.
Speaker 3: It just happened to be down there. So uh.
Speaker 1: At the graveyard now they're checking out the family headstone,
Speaker 1: and I've never really seen I guess something like this
Speaker 1: where all the names are on the same stone, like
Speaker 1: the fucking Weird Day. It's weird, like it has Emma
Speaker 1: and Matt's names on them, even though Emma's not dead.
Speaker 1: And they start they are talking about and then they
Speaker 1: notice that their birthdays are the same. So not only
Speaker 1: are Emma and Matt brother and sister, they're twins.
Speaker 2: So so they made it seem like Dun dun, Dawn twins.
Speaker 2: But it's like, is it weird if you don't go
Speaker 2: we're twins and you just say we're siblings.
Speaker 3: I don't know what are the rules. It's not weird.
Speaker 1: I just I think it makes the I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's a little bit weird to me that the mother
Speaker 1: has this heavy preference for these children that are would
Speaker 1: one is the same age, like I mean, because like
Speaker 1: sometimes it's like, oh my older one is easier. I
Speaker 1: can dance with my older one, and they owe like
Speaker 1: my that's my first kid. Some people act like that
Speaker 1: or like whatever. But no, because I think it's girls.
Speaker 1: I think it's like, oh my boy, no one loves
Speaker 1: you like a son. And then it's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's just different.
Speaker 2: Like you know, we've watched those videos online where it's
Speaker 2: like I already am nervous she's gonna want my clothes,
Speaker 2: or like I just I just think it sucks with
Speaker 2: a girl. You know, it's like internalized misogyny, is what
Speaker 2: I what my gut reaction was when she was talking
Speaker 2: about their relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and definitely I thought that too, because it was
Speaker 1: just so was not even attempting to look at her
Speaker 1: daughter in this in these home videos. But I think
Speaker 1: that the twin thing is really like it's just symbolic
Speaker 1: in terms of the script, like they talk about how
Speaker 1: they go. She was born two minutes after Matt, but
Speaker 1: she's been following in his shadow ever since, so he's
Speaker 1: like two minutes older than her, and like those two
Speaker 1: minutes made the whole difference because he's she's never been
Speaker 1: able to live up to, like him being like the
Speaker 1: golden child, which is on the parents right, not on her,
Speaker 1: And Huang says that's why she used the rope. She
Speaker 1: hates her brother, but she's bound to him. And Craig
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is fascinating, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't help us get Emma. Like he does not care
Speaker 1: about like all of Huang's like symbolism. He's like, I
Speaker 1: don't give a shit, Like how are we gonna get
Speaker 1: how we're gonna nail this chick? So Melinda as usual,
Speaker 1: goes well this will help and appears out of nowhere
Speaker 1: with a file folder to save the day. She's got
Speaker 1: pictures of the mom's mamma fied neck and you guessed it.
Speaker 1: The puncture wound is there, so Stabler's gotta try to
Speaker 1: work Emma, and you gotta be careful because she spent
Speaker 1: her whole life hating her mother. Like, if you confront
Speaker 1: her about this, she probably won't talk. She needs an ally.
Speaker 1: You need to reenact the sibling rivalry, Whong suggests. So,
Speaker 1: so now they bring Emma into the precinct and Benson
Speaker 1: is laying on the good cop like so thick, like, hey,
Speaker 1: we just wanted to bring you into apologize to you,
Speaker 1: like we searched Matt's apartment and we found the rope.
Speaker 3: It matches the women.
Speaker 1: And Emma's like about to leave when she's like okay,
Speaker 1: so I can go. Now when Stabler opens the door,
Speaker 1: goes you you come here like talking to Benson, and
Speaker 1: you know, obviously we know this is role play. He's
Speaker 1: he can be a dick, but he never talks to
Speaker 1: her like this. Master.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fully like just cop acting at its finest.
Speaker 3: And so he uh opens the door.
Speaker 1: He brings Benson out into the doorway, but leaves the
Speaker 1: door open so she can hear everything. And he's being
Speaker 1: so condescending to her. So they're amping up this big
Speaker 1: performance and finally Stabler like says to Emma, like, you know,
Speaker 1: you knew your brother was in debt and using the
Speaker 1: foundation to cover himself, and you didn't do anything. And
Speaker 1: Emma's like, no, I loved my brother. And Stabler's just
Speaker 1: being such a dick. He's telling Olivia to shut up.
Speaker 1: He's saying women shouldn't be cops. They're too weak and stupid,
Speaker 1: and then he storms off and Olivia comes in in tears,
Speaker 1: I mean, like she's got her eyes are welled up.
Speaker 1: And Emma's like, does he always talk to you like that?
Speaker 1: And Benson's like you heard him. He's in charge, like
Speaker 1: you know how it is, and she's like holding back
Speaker 1: these tears and like Emma's like, I get it. I
Speaker 1: was always the good girl, the helper. Emma, do this,
Speaker 1: Emma do that. And Olivia's like, my mother was a drunk.
Speaker 1: I had to carry her to bed, wash them vomit
Speaker 1: off of her. I thought I would never escape, and
Speaker 1: Emma's like, but you did. And Benson goes and after
Speaker 1: she died, that was the only time I ever felt free.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if any of this is like true
Speaker 1: and mothers are all the same.
Speaker 3: Emma says, you try to be good to them, and
Speaker 3: all they do is treat you like dirt. She had cancer.
Speaker 1: I took care of her for five years while Matt
Speaker 1: was in medical school and doing his residency. Mama used
Speaker 1: all her money to pay for his schooling. And they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: and he probably just like took you for granted and
Speaker 1: didn't appreciate it. And she goes, he made me work
Speaker 1: for him. He made me take care of all those
Speaker 1: women that were just like Mama, wash my clothes, walk
Speaker 1: my dog, clean my fridge.
Speaker 3: I'm like, is that.
Speaker 1: I guess that's part of the home care health thing.
Speaker 1: And so she goes, they all thought my brother was
Speaker 1: a god. But I took care of them. I did
Speaker 1: all the work. And they're like, you had to do
Speaker 1: something with Matt's rope, and she goes, yeah, then I
Speaker 1: was free. And they go just like with your mother,
Speaker 1: And she goes yes, and they go, how did you
Speaker 1: do it?
Speaker 3: She goes, with a little shot of air. It always
Speaker 3: worked so cool.
Speaker 1: When I was in nursing school, I would see daughters
Speaker 1: by their mother's beds, trapped, watching their lives disappear. So
Speaker 1: you help them, Yes, I set them free? They go,
Speaker 1: how many of them? And she goes dozens and she goes,
Speaker 1: do you remember any of their names? And she goes
Speaker 1: they were all called Mama, And she has like tears
Speaker 1: streaming down her face silently like like while she's doing this,
Speaker 1: like she does a great job. Jane Krakowski and that's
Speaker 1: dick wolf baby, So.
Speaker 3: That's like a great episode. It is.
Speaker 1: Let me just clarify something. So she's air embolisming everybody,
Speaker 1: and then you think that she ratchets it up and
Speaker 1: decides to start strangling them to frame her brother. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: it's just interesting to change ems kind of, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a frame her.
Speaker 2: She might have continued still air embolising. We don't know
Speaker 2: how mny yeople. She's murdered.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. That's true. She's a murder Yeah, she
Speaker 1: must have Like damn, she must have done a lot
Speaker 1: of research. I had to know Vivian owned a gun.
Speaker 1: She must have like really planned out a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff and like that this woman would be like at
Speaker 1: her house working out at six am and she could
Speaker 1: just kill her, like I don't know, it's pretty.
Speaker 3: It's kind get free, get away from your brother, like
Speaker 3: what's up. Yeah, let's go to another state. All right,
Speaker 3: but I'll move it along. I'll move I can't wait
Speaker 3: to hear what you got for us.
Speaker 2: Okay, So this is about Dorothea Puente and it's the
Speaker 2: Death House Landlady, which and it doesn't fully connect, but
Speaker 2: there are elements and then it's just interesting.
Speaker 1: So I will also say that there's another case that
Speaker 1: this people think this one is based on. But the
Speaker 1: woman that they caught did they didn't catch her till
Speaker 1: two years after this episode. WHOA The case was unsolved
Speaker 1: when this episode was on, but it could still be
Speaker 1: based on things that are Yeah, but they didn't know
Speaker 1: that this woman was killing people because she had hatred
Speaker 1: for her mother. Like I don't think they could have
Speaker 1: known that until they found her.
Speaker 2: Oh wait, like they didn't even know to how to
Speaker 2: connect them or whatnot.
Speaker 1: It's not I don't think that they Gilgo. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like she was a fugitive. Yeah, or is it like
Speaker 1: the Gilg Beach. I think it was a Gilgo Beach.
Speaker 1: They didn't know who did it and then they finally
Speaker 1: linked it together like in two thousand and six, I
Speaker 1: think to this woman in this other case. But yeah,
Speaker 1: but I'm excited to hear about Dorothea.
Speaker 3: Wait what was though?
Speaker 1: Her name was Juana Barassa, a Mexican convicted serial killer
Speaker 1: and former professional wrestler known as La Mata Javietas, which
Speaker 1: is the old lady killer in Spanish. And she killed
Speaker 1: sixteen elderly women and was sentenced to seven hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty eight nine years in prison, but was not apprehended
Speaker 1: until two thousand and six, and this episode came out No.
Speaker 3: Four. I just think that's kind of crazy too.
Speaker 2: Well, it's actually not that crazy because, as we always
Speaker 2: talk about the same vulnerable communities get hit time and
Speaker 2: time again. Yeah, so, and this is an easy place
Speaker 2: for killers to go. Okay, so, but this is this
Speaker 2: one's actually kind of different. So November eleventh, nineteen eighty eight,
Speaker 2: police were looking for a fifty one year old missing
Speaker 2: man named Bert Montoya, and they knew he was living
Speaker 2: at this boarding house in Sacramento, California. Once they got there,
Speaker 2: the detectives got some info that made them start digging up.
Speaker 3: The area in the yard.
Speaker 2: Like some neighbors, we'll get to like the exact stuff
Speaker 2: where like something's up there. Yeah, And over the next
Speaker 2: three days they started finding bones and bodies and seven
Speaker 2: bodies were discovered, and the number one suspect, of course,
Speaker 2: is the landlady. We have Dorothea. She was fifty nine
Speaker 2: years old. And about her, so this is the about
Speaker 2: me section. So she was born nineteen twenty nine January
Speaker 2: in an order and like spent time in an orphanage,
Speaker 2: did in form attachments with caregivers.
Speaker 3: A life of like violence and abuse was pretty normal
Speaker 3: for her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by the nineteen sixties she'd already been married
Speaker 2: three times and served some time behind bars for forging checks.
Speaker 2: You know, everything was about survival, and when she got
Speaker 2: out of jail, she started sex work to survive. And
Speaker 2: then she found the world of caregiving. So you need
Speaker 2: little qualifications, so the world opened up to her in
Speaker 2: her mind.
Speaker 3: So yeah, caregiving.
Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty one, she started renting a apartment in downtown
Speaker 2: Sacramento and became the caregiver of all these other tenants
Speaker 2: in this Victorian boarding house. She met sixty one year
Speaker 2: old Ruth Monroe. And you know, she was living there
Speaker 2: after her husband died. She didn't want to live alone.
Speaker 2: She was gone two weeks after she moved in. Her
Speaker 2: son says he came to see her every day. And
Speaker 2: the last three days she was super sick, and she
Speaker 2: had a drink in her hand and she didn't drink.
Speaker 2: So he's like, well, what up with that, and she goes, oh,
Speaker 2: it's a drink Dorothea fixed for me. It's to calm
Speaker 2: my nerves. He didn't think anything of it. You know,
Speaker 2: everyone was friends. They were friends, so, you know, nothing suspicious.
Speaker 2: The next day he came back, she was like catatonic.
Speaker 2: He sat next to her and said, you'll be okay,
Speaker 2: but she just laid there. And then the next morning
Speaker 2: she was dead. And then Dorothea was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: she took her own life, but no one.
Speaker 3: Really fully believed that.
Speaker 2: But then in August nineteen eighty two, she was back
Speaker 2: in trouble with the law and she was abusing her
Speaker 2: position as being a caretaker of her tenants, obviously, and
Speaker 2: so she pled guilties to fraud because she was signing
Speaker 2: the backs of social Security checks and cashing them for
Speaker 2: her victims and like keeping the money, and so she
Speaker 2: was sent to a woman's prison. In nineteen eighty five,
Speaker 2: she was paroled and came right back to the home
Speaker 2: she was on parole, but that did not stop her,
Speaker 2: and she went right back to taking victims social Security
Speaker 2: checks and keeping the money. And she did that for
Speaker 2: three years, fully undetected. And they came and went until
Speaker 2: November nineteen eight, when a local social worker, Judy Moyes,
Speaker 2: filed a missing person's report for Bert Montoya. He suffered
Speaker 2: for mental disabilities and suffered from schizophrenia, and her house
Speaker 2: was his last known address. So the detective John Cabrera
Speaker 2: was looking into the case and you know, ran a
Speaker 2: check on this caretaker. And then on November eleventh of
Speaker 2: eighty eight, Cabrera, his partner Terry Brown, and a parole officer,
Speaker 2: Jim Wilson all decided to visit fourteen twenty six f
Speaker 2: Street and search for clues. He ran into Judy and
Speaker 2: Judy said you better bring some shovels, and Cabrera was
Speaker 2: like what, And She's like, listen, I've driven by this
Speaker 2: house in the past. I've seen mounds of dirt back there.
Speaker 2: It looks like a burial ground. So they got some shovels.
Speaker 3: And they, you know, they knock.
Speaker 2: She answers, she's dressed nicely and goes, oh, I was
Speaker 2: expecting you guys. And when they asked what, well, you know,
Speaker 2: what's up?
Speaker 3: What are you doing?
Speaker 2: And she goes, well, I am in violation of my parole.
Speaker 2: I'm not supposed to be running a boarding house. But
Speaker 2: you know, she did get away with it for three years,
Speaker 2: and it's because she seemed harmless, charming.
Speaker 3: She did the whole old lady thing.
Speaker 2: She would take her teeth out sometimes, and she told
Speaker 2: people she was ten to fifteen years older than she was.
Speaker 2: She wanted people to think she was just like a
Speaker 2: kind elderly lady, okay, And she was stealing from them.
Speaker 2: And then to keep them quiet, she murdered them. And
Speaker 2: she likes poisoning them with this drug alcohol combo. She
Speaker 2: would bring the victim then to this death room and
Speaker 2: leave them on the floor till she was ready to
Speaker 2: deal with it, and sometimes the bodies would lay there
Speaker 2: for two to four weeks. Now why this is important
Speaker 2: is because John Cabrera pulled back the carpet and he
Speaker 2: recognized the odor. It was disgusting, and he said it
Speaker 2: was the smell of putrefied body fluid that would seep
Speaker 2: through the wooden floor from the victims. So that's like
Speaker 2: that was a clue for him. And then on November twelfth,
Speaker 2: eighty eight. The next day, they're about to get into
Speaker 2: the yard and she's on the balcony watching them, and
Speaker 2: like she obviously knew what they were gonna find. He
Speaker 2: found a femur bone. She goes, oh my god, what
Speaker 2: do you think this is? I can't believe it. Oh
Speaker 2: my gosh. I mean lots of people have been here
Speaker 2: living here. I've been to prison for three years.
Speaker 3: Like fuck.
Speaker 2: She was like, if you find more bones, I didn't
Speaker 2: put them there. So then the deputy corner Laura Santos,
Speaker 2: and she's like a bad bitch. She was in charge
Speaker 2: of the excavation. And so anyways, Dorothy is not charged
Speaker 2: or anything, because like just because there's bodies there doesn't
Speaker 2: mean she did it.
Speaker 3: You know, like we need some stuff.
Speaker 2: And at one point she asks him I under arrest,
Speaker 2: and John's like, well that's strange. She goes, no, why
Speaker 2: do you ask? And she said, well, all this is
Speaker 2: making me nervous. Can I get a cup of coffee
Speaker 2: and meet my nephew at the hotel? And he agreed
Speaker 2: and they walked over to the hotel and he went
Speaker 2: back to dig and then they found a leg and
Speaker 2: then another body, and like just more bodies, and.
Speaker 3: The superior is like, where's Dorothea.
Speaker 2: Well, she called a cabin escaped, so she's so she
Speaker 2: was the lamb for five days and they ended up
Speaker 2: calling the FBI. I mean, I'm sure he got yelled at,
Speaker 2: right John like fuck bro, Like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, go go hang out with your brother at the hotel.
Speaker 3: We'll call you if you need you. So so dumb.
Speaker 3: So they called the FBI to try to find her.
Speaker 2: But they did continue digging and seven people were found
Speaker 2: in the yard. Some were just like a few feet
Speaker 2: from the sidewalk and there were no witnesses, so that's
Speaker 2: pretty wild. And then some of the heads and hands
Speaker 2: and feet were gone, so no one even knew who
Speaker 2: these people were. And most of them did not have teeth,
Speaker 2: and a lot of these people, i mean, it's this
Speaker 2: boarding house there are strange from their families. A lot
Speaker 2: of these people were homeless, so it's hard to identify them.
Speaker 2: But our girl, that our coroner, she identified every single one, okay,
Speaker 2: And then she also then had to find out how
Speaker 2: they all died, and they all had the same drug
Speaker 2: in their bodies, but none of them had prescriptions for
Speaker 2: this pill. And it's dal mean, but guests. Who was
Speaker 2: prescribed it Dorothea, So No. Seventeenth Dorotheo was found. She
Speaker 2: was actually spotted by a man in a bar in
Speaker 2: La and she she was He was drinking with her,
Speaker 2: and then he went home, watched the news and goes,
Speaker 2: oh my god, holy shit, I drink with that woman.
Speaker 2: So he calls the LAPD. They find her immediately, and
Speaker 2: I do like that. She likes to get down. So
Speaker 2: eventually she was charged with night murders. It is serious.
Speaker 2: People did die, but so at nine murders, Ruth Munroe's
Speaker 2: death was then added to the seven that were found
Speaker 2: in the yard. And then also a seventy seven year
Speaker 2: old man named Everson Gilmouth. He became penpals with her
Speaker 2: when she was in prison, and then when she was paroled,
Speaker 2: he went picked her up and brought her to the
Speaker 2: boarding house. And within months he disappeared, and he was
Speaker 2: laying in a homemade coffin along the Sacramento River in
Speaker 2: like eighty six, early eighty six. But he was a
Speaker 2: John Doe until the case broke and then his family
Speaker 2: reached out and they're like, you know, we're looking for
Speaker 2: her father. And then she remained on remand for four
Speaker 2: years waiting for this trial because she really wanted a
Speaker 2: trial outside of Sacramento for f fareness whatever, So they
Speaker 2: did hold it in Monterey County, which is nearby. February ninth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three. The trial starts August twenty sixth, nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety three. After deliberating for twenty four days, the jury
Speaker 2: found her guilty of three murders, but deadlocked on all
Speaker 2: other charges.
Speaker 3: Listen, oh you're gonna die, okay.
Speaker 2: So Cabrera was pissed because of all nine charges of murder,
Speaker 2: like seven were so similar, there's no doubt, there's no
Speaker 2: doubt she should have been guilty for all of them.
Speaker 2: Why only three out of seven while four of the
Speaker 2: bodies went eleven to one and one juror said no,
Speaker 2: he didn't believe that what happened.
Speaker 3: What that's crazy?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it was like a mistrial and other six
Speaker 2: charges and everything was annoying just because of one fucking idiot.
Speaker 3: I honestly want to punch him in the face.
Speaker 2: And the December tenth, nineteen ninety three, she was sentenced
Speaker 2: to life in prison without parole, and she was at
Speaker 2: the Central California Women's Facility. She did release a book
Speaker 2: called Cooking with a Serial Killer two thousand and four. Okay,
Speaker 2: she died in twenty eleven at the age of eighty two.
Speaker 2: There's obviously, like still questions because how did this lady
Speaker 2: move these bodies?
Speaker 3: Chop them up? Bury them? Like who helped her? Right?
Speaker 2: Like she she was lying and saying she was older.
Speaker 2: But it's like some of these dudes are giant, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Look at his body almost yeah,
Speaker 2: like and it's just chopping them up. Where are the heads? Like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: pretty wild dorothea.
Speaker 3: Pretty wild stuff.
Speaker 2: So and I think I wonder if she wasn't old,
Speaker 2: if this story would have connected to this crime or not.
Speaker 2: Like it is different but also a thrill I guess
Speaker 2: and heard about it, and a lot of.
Speaker 1: It's like a little bit combo of what Krakowski's character
Speaker 1: was doing. But also that guy, the Richard Sutton character,
Speaker 1: because he's marrying no, he's stealing social security checks from
Speaker 1: these women, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know a lot of the stuff I
Speaker 2: found was like the most evil woman, one of the
Speaker 2: most amil criminals that corize. They asked criminal and it's
Speaker 2: like or an average guy criminal, I guess, like you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. Yeah, but no, she's an evil
Speaker 2: person and basically, like a lot of I watched a
Speaker 2: doc thing about her and it was everyone just being like,
Speaker 2: so I heard, these people are means to an end.
Speaker 2: It's like she needed money. She could get the checks
Speaker 2: and that's that and that's all she really cared about.
Speaker 2: But the world of caregiving interesting to me. So this
Speaker 2: is the Charles Cullin case. So he basically administered lethal
Speaker 2: doses of medications to patients that were under his care.
Speaker 3: He was a nurse.
Speaker 2: He of course considered himself an angel of mercy, helping
Speaker 2: to end his patients suffering. And he did admit to
Speaker 2: killing up to forty patients in his sixteen year career
Speaker 2: with intentional drug overdoses. Okay, so his old navy bunkmate, Okay,
Speaker 2: not the store like he's.
Speaker 3: Former navy roommate. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So to The New York Times is quoted saying he
Speaker 2: called him socially inept and that was his whole life,
Speaker 2: and everyone was like solitude, solitude.
Speaker 3: No one liked him, never had a friend.
Speaker 2: Neighbors from childhood in West Orange, New Jersey, said he
Speaker 2: was the youngest of eight siblings. Quiet and awkward as fuck.
Speaker 2: His father died when he was an infant, and then
Speaker 2: his mother died his senior year of high school, and
Speaker 2: that's when he joined the Navy. He was just charged
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four after he did try to take
Speaker 2: his own life, so he had an inability to bond
Speaker 2: with others, a lot of disciplinary problems, odd behavior, and
Speaker 2: moving to new places for a constant fresh start. In
Speaker 2: eighty seven, he graduated nursing school and married Adrian Tobb,
Speaker 2: so he was on the dating scene and got his
Speaker 2: first nursing job at Saint Barnabas.
Speaker 3: There's no way that's the Why always say it?
Speaker 2: I think it's just Barnabas, sure the medical center. This
Speaker 2: is actually so serious, Okay. So in Livingston, New Jersey,
Speaker 2: a woman who worked the burn unit with him said
Speaker 2: he was quiet and stubbornly private, and over the next
Speaker 2: eleven years he had nine jobs. He chose jobs and
Speaker 2: drugs that would not draw much attention, and he was
Speaker 2: able to continue mostly due to systemic failures of like
Speaker 2: hospital and government systems that do a bad job weeding
Speaker 2: out people who aren't patients. And then like there were complaints,
Speaker 2: there were inquiries, things happened, but people in charge were
Speaker 2: neglectful and didn't look deep enough into any like previous allegations.
Speaker 3: Ever.
Speaker 2: Ever, ever, employers never reported him to one another or
Speaker 2: an oversight agency or law enforcement because they were not
Speaker 2: required to. So these like harm freaks they do. They
Speaker 2: work nights, they work shifts. People don't want you know,
Speaker 2: it's like quiet, and the hospitals have shortages, and so
Speaker 2: these people come and work at night, and they work
Speaker 2: in cardiac and intensive care units where death was often expected.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a lot of gravely ill and unconscious people.
Speaker 2: So then and then also there's a minimal human interaction
Speaker 2: with these jobs. Remember he's a weirdo, isolated, no one
Speaker 2: likes him, so so he gets to alone with these patients.
Speaker 2: There's no sounds, and it's again common for medical serial
Speaker 2: killers to work at night with the sickest of patients.
Speaker 2: And eventually he became even more isolated because Adrian divorced
Speaker 2: him in nineteen ninety three, claiming that he refused to
Speaker 2: talk to her or sleep with her for years. She
Speaker 2: accused him of beating their Yorkshire terriers and zipping one
Speaker 2: of the dogs into a bowling ball bag, which to me,
Speaker 2: I think is kind of funny. And I don't know
Speaker 2: if that makes me a freak? Am I a killer?
Speaker 2: If it's a small little dog putting it in a bowling.
Speaker 3: Bag wall Yeah, I mean I don't think that's a
Speaker 3: big deal. But the dog did not debt. I mean,
Speaker 3: did he kill? Did he? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Compared to everything else that goes on, I mean, I'm
Speaker 2: glad he didn't put his kid in there. I'm just saying,
Speaker 2: like a Yorkshire Terrier is a four pound dog and
Speaker 2: don't kick it. But putting it in a bowling bag,
Speaker 2: ball bag, bowling ball bag is funny.
Speaker 3: It feels like it could have been way worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I just had like an old memory resurface of like
Speaker 2: a purse I used to love that looks kind of
Speaker 2: like a bullet and I was like trying to like
Speaker 2: place it in the time of my life.
Speaker 3: But it was like gorgeous. Fuck.
Speaker 2: So she accused, Okay, yeah, the bowling ball bag, ball
Speaker 2: bowling ball bag.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got it. Oh God, Okay. So he lost
Speaker 3: custody of his two daughters.
Speaker 2: Obviously, he moved into a basement apartment and lived there
Speaker 2: for ten years, and then when his marriage collapsed more
Speaker 2: erratic behavior, and it's filled into his work life. He
Speaker 2: smashed a window of a coworker's home. He went into
Speaker 2: the home while her and her son slept, so he
Speaker 2: was booked on felony charges but released, And then he
Speaker 2: tried to take his own life again after the arrest
Speaker 2: and took two months off of work, got some psychiatric help,
Speaker 2: and on August tenth, nineteen ninety three, he pled guilty
Speaker 2: to misdemeanor trespassing and sentenced to a year's probation. Then
Speaker 2: for the first time, he's accused of murder. So that's
Speaker 2: August thirtieth, nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3: Helen C. Dean is ninety one years old.
Speaker 2: She was recovering nicely from a breast cancer surgery, ready
Speaker 2: to be discharged. A male nurse not assigned to her
Speaker 2: room entered, told the son Larry, to leave, gave her
Speaker 2: an injection that no doctor ordered, and then when the
Speaker 2: son goes back in, she goes he stuck me, And
Speaker 2: then this.
Speaker 3: Is New York Times.
Speaker 2: And then Larry and Helen Dean complained to the doctors
Speaker 2: and nurses pointed him out.
Speaker 3: No one took action. She was released.
Speaker 2: She did look green, and then that afternoon, she suffered
Speaker 2: a heart failure and died. Larry Dean told the prosecutor's
Speaker 2: office that his mother had been murdered and knew who
Speaker 2: done it, and like, you know, the emmy confirmed there
Speaker 2: was an unprescribed injection that happened and it was degoxen
Speaker 2: degoxen degosin digoxin I think digoxin digoxin some digoxin, which
Speaker 2: is a common heart medication but can be fatal in
Speaker 2: large doses. Eventually, though, the case is dropped, but then
Speaker 2: a new prosecutor reopened the case and exhumed the body.
Speaker 1: Get her up, Wake up, wake up, wake up, the
Speaker 1: sun is up.
Speaker 3: Come on. I feel sick, but like, yeah, I guess
Speaker 3: if someone else heard us, be like I love when
Speaker 3: they ezuom a body like that is fucked, but it is,
Speaker 3: It's just real.
Speaker 1: Case is less but on the show when they do it,
Speaker 1: it's so dramatic.
Speaker 2: But this is fuck but yeah they so they a
Speaker 2: zoomed journal for and during this time though, he stayed
Speaker 2: working at Warren Hospital, so he harassed the colleague, showed
Speaker 2: up to her house.
Speaker 3: Why would you fire him?
Speaker 2: You know, murder accusations, but let him work, my god,
Speaker 2: and also just giving an injection that's not authorized would
Speaker 2: be something to be fired for, like what what.
Speaker 3: Are we talking about? And then so then they go,
Speaker 3: you know, like two suicide attempts.
Speaker 2: Not that people like shouldn't have full lives that survived,
Speaker 2: but like a site commitment, maybe they shouldn't be a
Speaker 2: I don't know, a site commitment outsid from a job,
Speaker 2: criminal conviction, allegation of murder. All right, So then he
Speaker 2: ended up leaving on his own December thirtieth, nineteen ninety three,
Speaker 2: right before New Year's He wanted to switch, so he
Speaker 2: wanted to leave his past in the past, and there
Speaker 2: was like so like, he just kept on moving places.
Speaker 2: In ninety seven, fired for Morristown Memorial for poor performance,
Speaker 2: and then he's just like spiraling behind on child support.
Speaker 2: He had a pet ferret, another attempt on his life,
Speaker 2: confrontations with doctors.
Speaker 3: And not again, no friends.
Speaker 2: They keep repeating it, and eventually he did file for bankruptcy.
Speaker 2: So then he went into the nursing home worlds. You know,
Speaker 2: these these predators find where to go. So Liberty Nursing
Speaker 2: hired him February tenth, nineteen ninety eight, and he seeks
Speaker 2: out the sickest patients and immediately went to the vent
Speaker 2: unit where and that's lingo for ventilating. So May eighth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety eight, Francis J. Henry rushed in an ambulance
Speaker 2: to the hospital. And then Liberty Nursing and Rehabilitation Center
Speaker 2: is getting calls and people are like, excuse me, who
Speaker 2: gave a insulin?
Speaker 3: Who gave him insulin?
Speaker 2: They fired a different fucking nurse who said, it's this guy.
Speaker 3: She goes it is not me. We both had so.
Speaker 2: Mister Henry died on May nineteenth, and they fired Kimberly Pepe,
Speaker 2: who said Colin had equal access to her patient because
Speaker 2: he was taking care of the roommate and she gave
Speaker 2: him all this info.
Speaker 3: They let her go. They let her go. She sued.
Speaker 2: There was a settlement, and eventually Liberty couldn't deny that
Speaker 2: Colin was, as The Times writes, a menace.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, so Kara, this is just the beginning. So,
Speaker 3: oh my god.
Speaker 2: October nineteen ninety eight, two other nurses saw him enter
Speaker 2: a woman's room he was not assigned to, with syringes
Speaker 2: in hand. They don't know what happened if the injections
Speaker 2: were given, but the patient ended up with a broken arm.
Speaker 2: Liberty finally fired him, but did not report him to
Speaker 2: state or the Stateboard is of Nursings.
Speaker 3: I added, says it's just the State Board of Nursing.
Speaker 2: So then two hospitals called Liberty for references on him.
Speaker 2: They did not pass along any concerns about him. He
Speaker 2: got a job within a week at in Eastern Pennsylvania
Speaker 2: Eastern Hospital.
Speaker 3: Okay, right away.
Speaker 2: And then right away a man named Ottomar Shram crashed
Speaker 2: and died and was given degoxin, which is off limits
Speaker 2: because he is a pacemaker.
Speaker 1: This guy doesn't even wait, he doesn't even settle in
Speaker 1: why I'm a job a week, can't can't even help himself.
Speaker 2: So then mister Cullen advised the daughter, Christina Toff, like,
Speaker 2: oh girl, you don't need to do an autopsy, like
Speaker 2: shit happens. And then years later when everything came out,
Speaker 2: she's like, holy shit, that's the guy who told me
Speaker 2: not to do a fucking autopsy on my dad, you know.
Speaker 3: And that's the end of the New York Times.
Speaker 2: So then Northampton County Coroner investigated all this for eight months,
Speaker 2: never thought it was accidental, like they knew there was
Speaker 2: a crime, but I ever asked the DA's office to
Speaker 2: open a criminal inquiry. So then three years later, Culin
Speaker 2: already at another hospital. And then so ly Sick is
Speaker 2: the coroner, and he gets a call that Cullin was
Speaker 2: involved with Shram's death. We don't know who. Someone contacted him,
Speaker 2: there's a tip. So he contacted the state police. No
Speaker 2: one connected to the Dots, nobody that like, or to
Speaker 2: the deaths and Liberty and the Warren. So then Lysick,
Speaker 2: the coroner, said, when he called Easton, they said Culin
Speaker 2: never even worked there. And the hospital says that was
Speaker 2: an accident and that like they weren't trying to mislead
Speaker 2: the coroner on purpose, that it was like truly an
Speaker 2: error because he came from like a medical agency they
Speaker 2: didn't hire whatever, or the hospital's fucking lying and covering
Speaker 2: their ass, we do not know. So then he moved
Speaker 2: on to Lehigh Valley Hospital March nineteen ninety nine and
Speaker 2: he went straight to the burn Ward. So then January
Speaker 2: tewod two thousand, he tries to take his own life
Speaker 2: again via carbon monoxide. And that's a midsommer shit. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: fucked shit. They found like everything plugged up batteries out
Speaker 2: of everything, just smoked smoke in his apartment. So he
Speaker 2: left the So he left that hospital on his own.
Speaker 2: April twenty eighth, two thousand and then the Times is
Speaker 2: amazing and they write he had gone through seven jobs,
Speaker 2: had been forced out of three, had survived at least
Speaker 2: three or four suicide attempts, had endured four psychiatric hospitalizations,
Speaker 2: had evaded three investigations into suspicious deaths.
Speaker 3: But finding work, though, remained easy. Oh my god. So
Speaker 3: now we're at Saint Luke's hospital.
Speaker 2: It's two thousand and two, and Saint Luke's definitely sounds
Speaker 2: like a soap opera. Cops arrive at because there's angry
Speaker 2: and worried nurses and they're like, listen, we have a
Speaker 2: former colleague who fucked with medications and we think he
Speaker 2: played a role in the deaths of patients. The hospital
Speaker 2: doesn't want to investigate. They let him quit quietly, but like,
Speaker 2: now he's working at another hospital. So the nurses gave
Speaker 2: over all this evidence and they're like, listen, there's all
Speaker 2: these meds that are being mishandled, and why would you
Speaker 2: take drugs that you can't get fucked up on or
Speaker 2: don't have a good resale value, like if they're not
Speaker 2: recreational or money making drugs, what is the mishandling about? Right,
Speaker 2: So more patients died when he was on duty. Finally
Speaker 2: a nurse called the state police and they brought in
Speaker 2: doctor Mehilachis forensic pathologists, and he handled Helen Dean's death
Speaker 2: at Warren Hospital years earlier, but found nothing whatever. So
Speaker 2: then the State Board of Nursing sent an investigators Saint
Speaker 2: Luke's and nothing. Moved along to Sacred Heart Hospital in
Speaker 2: Allentown and he okay, So then he left Saint Luke's,
Speaker 2: went to Sacred Hearts while all these investigations are happening.
Speaker 2: Worked at Sacred Hearts and was fired in sixteen days.
Speaker 2: No one liked him, so then he's hired a month
Speaker 2: later by Somerset Medical Center in Somerville, New Jersey. And
Speaker 2: that's what prosecutors called his deadliest work, his last job.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Finally an arrest Jesus So June o three, it was
Speaker 2: clear he was up to something, you know, finally, so
Speaker 2: then hospital computers caught him right handed.
Speaker 3: So that's what happened.
Speaker 2: So June sixteenth, a cancer patient and critical care unit
Speaker 2: suffered a sudden, life threatening heart malfunction, and blood tests
Speaker 2: showed huge levels of degoxin. I can't degoxin, a drug
Speaker 2: not prescribed to her. She recovered but did die three
Speaker 2: months later. So then the computer.
Speaker 3: What the fuck? I know, it's like crazy, I'm only laughing.
Speaker 3: I'm so uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: So then the computer systems showed that during Colin's ship
Speaker 2: the previous night, he had called up medical files all
Speaker 2: the woman jin Kyong Han, even though she was not
Speaker 2: his patient. So then we also have a computerized drug
Speaker 2: dispending cabinet and dispending dispending whatever.
Speaker 3: That's a fucked up word.
Speaker 2: But I know about Yeah, I know it, But why
Speaker 2: is it spelled wrong because I typed.
Speaker 3: It like that. I don't care, like, but I know
Speaker 3: about this because of Nurse Jackie.
Speaker 1: So then the Pixis system is fucked Nurse Jackie's life up.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 1: I think it's cabinet came into her life and fucked
Speaker 1: it up.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like when the Finding Nemo Fish came
Speaker 2: and like they had a new filter and their plan
Speaker 2: was gone, and they're like, yeah, which should I make
Speaker 2: a meme of Finding nme ow nurse SHACKI, meme, do
Speaker 2: you think references from eighteen years ago would hit?
Speaker 3: Ah? So okay.
Speaker 2: So the PIXIS system also showed that hours before hans
Speaker 2: heart malfunctioned, Cullen ordered a dose of degoxin for another
Speaker 2: I can't, I can't. I want to say it for
Speaker 2: another patient who's also not prescribed the drug. And even
Speaker 2: before that, there were a series of fucked medication errors.
Speaker 2: So two patients suffered life threatening drops and blood sugar
Speaker 2: that could only have been caused by insulin overdose. But
Speaker 2: the hospital did not reassign or suspend Colin Cullin and
Speaker 2: let him come and they let him continue to work
Speaker 2: in the critical carry unit.
Speaker 1: Is he a nurse, Yes he is. He's a registered nurse. Okay.
Speaker 1: I didn't know if he was just like a medical
Speaker 1: assistant or something. And I was like, he's allowed to
Speaker 1: give these injections after like after, I think he's God.
Speaker 2: So then weeks later, Reverend Floridian Jay Gall comes in.
Speaker 2: He's sixty eight, he has pneumonia. His sister Lucille remembers
Speaker 2: seeing Colin one night, and then hospital records again showed
Speaker 2: that he reviewed this patient's file, even though not his
Speaker 2: patient on June twenty seventh. Later that night, Colin ordered
Speaker 2: the medication for another patient again who has not prescribed it.
Speaker 2: And the next morning, this reverend had heart failure.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: The hospital did nothing, no autopsy, nothing, and like they
Speaker 2: they clocked that the symptoms are the symptom of a
Speaker 2: degoxin like overdose or whatever, but like they didn't put
Speaker 2: it together. They're like, I guess this just happened. So
Speaker 2: then again four incidents happened in one month July. First
Speaker 2: they bring in outside experts but let him stay working
Speaker 2: and then did not tell the state police or health
Speaker 2: department yet. So then doctor Stephen Marcus is so annoyed,
Speaker 2: and he's the new Jersey Poison Control Center executive director,
Speaker 2: and he's like, are you guys fucking stupid? And also
Speaker 2: I've been recording all these conversations you moron hospital, So
Speaker 2: he's recorded everything.
Speaker 3: He's pissed about everything.
Speaker 2: He finally reports the case to the Department of Health
Speaker 2: and Senior Services.
Speaker 3: So then all these people are investigating from all over.
Speaker 2: Colin is still working, and then a patient has a
Speaker 2: non fatal insulin overdose on August twenty seventh, and then
Speaker 2: on September twenty fifth, the Department of Health learns that
Speaker 2: the hospital never reported that incident. So then state officials
Speaker 2: are like fuck fuck fuck. So then eight days later,
Speaker 2: another patient suffered a wild drop in blood sugar and
Speaker 2: died forty five minutes later.
Speaker 3: And it finally turned criminal.
Speaker 2: Sixteen years after this man became a nurse and started
Speaker 2: killing people. Oh my god, Somerset County Prosecutor Wayne J.
Speaker 2: Forrest started a big thing. And then October thirty first,
Speaker 2: Somerset finally fired him for lying on his job application.
Speaker 3: Lol.
Speaker 2: So then finally, finally, I keep saying, finally, December twelfth,
Speaker 2: he was having spring rolls and drinking a beer with
Speaker 2: a date in a restaurant and then authorities surrounded him.
Speaker 2: So it's very SVU like to be eating a spring
Speaker 2: roll and get arrested. And he went quietly, and his
Speaker 2: nursing license was still in order. So if they didn't
Speaker 2: arrest him, he could have gotten another job as a nurse.
Speaker 3: I don't.
Speaker 2: He pled guilty to twenty two murders in New Jersey
Speaker 2: and seven in Pennsylvania, and then six attempted murder confessions
Speaker 2: as well. He did have to sit for the victim
Speaker 2: impact statements, and it was four hours of nearly two
Speaker 2: dozen relatives of like dead people just talking to him,
Speaker 2: thank God, and Judge w Armstrong gave him eleven consecutive
Speaker 2: life sentences no parole.
Speaker 3: Obviously.
Speaker 1: The thing that's so fucked up about this is like this,
Speaker 1: I've obviously listened to two seasons of doctor death on podcasts,
Speaker 1: and like there's always nurses that are other nurses that
Speaker 1: are like reporting shit and people are not listening to them.
Speaker 1: Like there's always like hospitals just like ignoring concerns from nurses.
Speaker 1: I feel like about doctor bad, about doctor malpractice and
Speaker 1: sometimes other nurses. And if we had like listened to
Speaker 1: one fucking nurse at one of these places, Jesus.
Speaker 2: Yeah, our fail. But it's also like I feel like
Speaker 2: I want to know where he is in prison.
Speaker 1: It's like you got to hit these places where the
Speaker 1: money is. If that first guy who had said, remember
Speaker 1: the one who's whose wife or was it Helen Dean,
Speaker 1: the one who was like he stuck me, Like, if
Speaker 1: that guy, if that woman's son or whoever, had like
Speaker 1: sued them, I bet they would have gotten this guy
Speaker 1: off the fucking shoe.
Speaker 3: You don't have the money or the wherewithal to sue
Speaker 3: you guys.
Speaker 2: There's a Netflix thing Capturing the Killer Nurse The Good Nurse,
Speaker 2: A true story of medicine madness.
Speaker 3: It's like Charles Cullen. It came out in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: Oh maybe I'll do that for sister Peg Capturing the
Speaker 2: Killer Nurse. WHOA, I'm definitely gonna watch that because or not,
Speaker 2: or I'm just gonna be mad, but I mean I'm
Speaker 2: mad either way.
Speaker 1: He was an excellent nurse. They're saying he knew medication
Speaker 1: like I had never seen.
Speaker 3: I guess it's like I just want to know.
Speaker 1: Like in the show, she's obviously got some fucked up
Speaker 1: anger towards her mom, and she thinks she's liberating these women.
Speaker 3: What is this guy's like?
Speaker 1: Does he just like to see people fucking suddenly die
Speaker 1: because some people are recovering well and so they're gonna
Speaker 1: be fine, and then he's like, bye, you're dead.
Speaker 3: I just like to see people die.
Speaker 1: It's probably just like a weird god complex of like
Speaker 1: I can just kill people whatever I want, like with
Speaker 1: this little shot ough all.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah crazy, I mean this is Oh what I
Speaker 2: was gonna say is like you want to trust professionals,
Speaker 2: but you can't. You can't trust anyone ever, Like what
Speaker 2: a fucked up lesson, what a life to live? But
Speaker 2: like all the like, you can't trust anybody.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: You go and there's a nurse and suddenly you're you're
Speaker 2: green and no one's listening, Like you have to fight
Speaker 2: at all constantly.
Speaker 3: You cannot be polite. You cannot be polite. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Oh that's like it's just really crazy that you would
Speaker 1: go through so many places and then there's like no
Speaker 1: checks and balances for in some of these vulnerable communities.
Speaker 2: Well they do it on purpose, because who do they
Speaker 2: pay bad people that take care of your grandparents, Like
Speaker 2: it's not a lucrative job, like you would think you
Speaker 2: would pay those people more, but like being a caretaker,
Speaker 2: you get treated bad at bad hours. It's not a
Speaker 2: good job and you don't get compensated well and you
Speaker 2: get treated like shit. Yeah, and it's like gross, and
Speaker 2: it's manually, it's like a lot of fucking it's a
Speaker 2: hard ass job and of course no one gives a fuck.
Speaker 2: So then you get these psychopaths or theas that are
Speaker 2: like y'all take care of these motherfuckers and then no
Speaker 2: one checks on them.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh well, well yeah that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well thanks for doing all that research.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm like reading about this other lady who
Speaker 1: got caught afterwards. It's like so crazy when someone gets caught,
Speaker 1: like after Suu's already done an episode about it or
Speaker 1: something like, or a crime happens after the episode.
Speaker 3: That's exactly the same.
Speaker 2: All right, let's patterns naturally emerge. I always say that.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get into our post mortem. Well, no
Speaker 1: guests this week, as we mentioned, so oh, I mean
Speaker 1: the post mortem on this one. I feel like you
Speaker 1: got to get out of your brother's shadow, Like, let's,
Speaker 1: I don't know, develop another interest, get out of nursing.
Speaker 3: I don't know. That's like so terrible. It's so terrible.
Speaker 3: I feel like when there's.
Speaker 2: The reason doesn't matter, that's the day at the end
Speaker 2: of the Oh yeah, but I was like, at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, I just I don't care about
Speaker 2: your reason for murder.
Speaker 3: Right, no, of course, But like her trauma comes.
Speaker 1: From like a life of being like neglected for me, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I know it's not as as severe, I guess,
Speaker 2: but it's like I know parents that pitted their sons
Speaker 2: against each other, like one went to private, one went
Speaker 2: to public, and like, oh my god, they tried to
Speaker 2: make them compete and do weird things like evil people
Speaker 2: procreate and yeah, and women hate women and themselves and
Speaker 2: like so you know that we talk about the boy
Speaker 2: mom thing where immediately it's like, oh, the girls, we're
Speaker 2: gonna fight, Like yeah, I just the hating themselves manifests
Speaker 2: in the hate of others.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean also it like, yeah, it just goes
Speaker 1: against the whole, Like you're supposed to just like love
Speaker 1: your kids unconditionally, not on the condition that they like
Speaker 1: perform better than another one or are better at sports
Speaker 1: or academics or anything or that, like you know, beyond
Speaker 1: like just being like accepting them like sexual orientation or
Speaker 1: gender anything like that. It's like you can't just like
Speaker 1: the one better that like does better in school or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know. And I feel like you see that a lot,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: Even if it's not this aggressive, it's just like the favorite. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's like unshuted bias comes out everywhere. Yeah where It's like,
Speaker 2: what is this a horse race?
Speaker 1: You're like, I think I'm gonna put my money on this one.
Speaker 1: They're gonna do better. Like what like they're your children,
Speaker 1: so you know, yeah, you know most people shouldn't have children.
Speaker 1: That's just what I'm thinking. Oscar's playing indoor soccer. Gave
Speaker 1: up halfway through the game. He goes, this is too
Speaker 1: loud for me, and he sat on the bench and
Speaker 1: he talked to a grown woman the entire time, who
Speaker 1: I did not know.
Speaker 3: That's him.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not gonna be like, uh, you need
Speaker 1: a Soper scholarship, get out there, you know, but so strange.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, okay, this is okay. My brain went.
Speaker 2: I watched a video of like people being like if
Speaker 2: you're a parent that like flips out at your kids
Speaker 2: sporting events, you're like the word you're a bad person,
Speaker 2: you know, like you're an unwell person. And then that
Speaker 2: made me think of I saw a clip and it's
Speaker 2: missal Jones, who I do enjoy the content, but then
Speaker 2: like some other finance woman talking and this woman goes
Speaker 2: the first part I agree with, like brides should pay
Speaker 2: for their bachelorette parties, like the idea that everyone should
Speaker 2: pay for the bride's house and bride like if you're
Speaker 2: doing an elaborate vacation. You should pay for the home
Speaker 2: or like you should pay for the things and then
Speaker 2: people fly or something. But I agree with that, like
Speaker 2: if you're doing these extravagance, or at least pay for yourself,
Speaker 2: Like I don't understand.
Speaker 1: I paid for myself at my own bachelorette and I
Speaker 1: a bunch of food, Like I definitely be myself.
Speaker 3: Like that part I could, I agreed with.
Speaker 2: And if you can't, like make it more low key,
Speaker 2: like to ask people to spend thousands and times it's absurd,
Speaker 2: But then they go and I'm done with the birthdays.
Speaker 2: I'm done paying for the birthday girl dinner? What are
Speaker 2: you a child? I have to pay for the dinner?
Speaker 2: And I just wrote being so against like getting a
Speaker 2: treat for your friend on their birthday is the darkest thing.
Speaker 2: That is so dark to be annoyed that you have
Speaker 2: to pay for I can't that like was too far
Speaker 2: from me.
Speaker 3: I'm like, this is true darkness. This has to be
Speaker 3: for content.
Speaker 2: You can't truly be annoyed to pay for your friend's
Speaker 2: birthday dinner.
Speaker 1: Everything's rage bait. Now they like know it's gonna make
Speaker 1: you furious.
Speaker 2: You don't want to pay for your friend's birthday because
Speaker 2: I remember my parents being annoyed because Russian culture, it's
Speaker 2: like I'll pay for the party and you bring gifts
Speaker 2: or cash, you know what I mean. So then it's like, okay,
Speaker 2: you either get a gift or I'm paying for my
Speaker 2: own dinner, but you can't have both. And in high school,
Speaker 2: for some reason, we bought this girl of Tiffany's bracelet
Speaker 2: all together and paid for her dinner, and my parents
Speaker 2: were pissed and we had to pay for our own.
Speaker 3: My parents were like, what the fuck is this culture?
Speaker 3: What the heck? Well, so I wouldn't so if I'm
Speaker 3: throwing apart, but it's different.
Speaker 2: But if you go to dinner with your friend whose
Speaker 2: birthday it is, and you are like, I'm a I'm
Speaker 2: not putting in for her.
Speaker 3: That is dark. You don't just me that's the gift.
Speaker 1: To me, It's like, we don't really, I don't really give,
Speaker 1: like do a ton of birthday gifts really, And I'm like,
Speaker 1: the gift is that we're all taking.
Speaker 3: Out to dinner.
Speaker 2: I don't know that makes sense to me. Yeah, Like
Speaker 2: to be against that is weird. Yes, it's like it's
Speaker 2: a joy or it's like it's kind of like when
Speaker 2: I get into gifts or like doing stuff it's Christmas
Speaker 2: and people go, oh this, I go, I don't feel
Speaker 2: that stress, Like are you so void of understanding where
Speaker 2: other people come from that I don't have your stress
Speaker 2: with it to me. My Christmas shopping's done in November, bitch,
Speaker 2: I'm excited. Like people like putting their own shit where
Speaker 2: it's like oh god the birthday and it's like, no,
Speaker 2: you're a bad person, Like you're a bad person.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's also so easy.
Speaker 1: I'm not like you. I'm not like a big gift
Speaker 1: person and that's fine. The dinner is so easy. I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is so easy. They were going to place, they like,
Speaker 1: we're gonna all have dinner, We're gonna have fun.
Speaker 3: Oh it's all them drinks. Is another thing.
Speaker 2: It must be rage bait because then they said, well,
Speaker 2: am I gonna get this in return? Like if I
Speaker 2: pay for your Like, am I going to be getting
Speaker 2: my dinner paid for it?
Speaker 3: And I go, oh, get out of here. Because that's
Speaker 3: also a.
Speaker 2: Thing like my gift giving has nothing to do with
Speaker 2: because I have tons of friends who aren't gift givers
Speaker 2: or don't give a fuck or don't remember birthday and
Speaker 2: that's not their thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that would ever forced it.
Speaker 2: I think that's where the issues come from, is like,
Speaker 2: you know, expecting people to like go I don't know,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but like and if you're broke or
Speaker 2: if you like, if something is going on or you
Speaker 2: can't afford, like that's different too, or if that person's
Speaker 2: taste is very up. But then if it's a real friend,
Speaker 2: you would like talk about her, don't go to the dinner.
Speaker 3: I don't know. It's just like but like they really
Speaker 3: I hope its rage bait because.
Speaker 1: Through financial troubles you're like, hey, I really can't afford
Speaker 1: the dinners or a way I can like take you
Speaker 1: for coffee.
Speaker 3: Or we can oh I want.
Speaker 2: Yeah that's what's someone in the comments like I'm done
Speaker 2: doing these big ones. I don't like the other friends,
Speaker 2: but I'm happy to take my friend out to dinner
Speaker 2: totally totally, but like I.
Speaker 3: Like the other friends is so good.
Speaker 1: I don't really want to be with that whole group,
Speaker 1: Like yeah, because I have friends who.
Speaker 2: Are definitely not gift givers and I would never be
Speaker 2: mad at them and I wouldn't I wouldn't want them
Speaker 2: to feel pressure, and I wouldn't I would expect them.
Speaker 1: To give at the level of thoughtfulness that you give,
Speaker 1: because that's like a skill of yours.
Speaker 2: I also don't if I buy you a breakfast for
Speaker 2: your perthday, I'm really not thinking about it when it's yeah,
Speaker 2: I really, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like all this like kind of etiquette shit
Speaker 1: that people talk about is not really rage bait, like
Speaker 1: they're really trying to get you, like.
Speaker 2: Well, no, I think it's like isolate, like it's ye're right,
Speaker 2: it's it's people that are only on the internet or something.
Speaker 2: It's not real life, Like I just can't imagine being like, no,
Speaker 2: I'm not paying for your birthday dinner?
Speaker 3: Why are we? And it's like there's five of us,
Speaker 3: like we'll each put in fifteen dollars, Like I just
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been at countless birthday dinners. I cannot remember
Speaker 1: one where someone's like I'm not actually gonna put in
Speaker 1: for the birthday girl or the birthday boy. Like I've
Speaker 1: never experienced that, So that's anecdotal. I don't know if
Speaker 1: that's like a new thing happening, But you are.
Speaker 2: Both wealthy people, because like that's the thing don't we
Speaker 2: talk about, Like when you're looking for a spouser partner
Speaker 2: in this idea of like wealth comes up, but it's
Speaker 2: like it's actually generosity is what you're looking for. Like wealth,
Speaker 2: you could still be a frugal, like bad person who's.
Speaker 3: Not you know, I don't know.
Speaker 2: If you're a millionaire and you're at dinner with people
Speaker 2: that aren't millionaires, you should cover the tab.
Speaker 1: When we went out to dinner with my When we
Speaker 1: went to Italy and we went out to dinner with my.
Speaker 2: Tell exactly who I'm talking about. Who covered a big
Speaker 2: tab for me recently? Yeah, yeahpfull Hopefully maybe she heard
Speaker 2: me talking shit.
Speaker 1: Well, we went out to dinner and we saw our
Speaker 1: friends in Italy. They took us out to dinner. They
Speaker 1: would not let us pay, even though they were putting
Speaker 1: us up. We were like, this is crazy. Then they
Speaker 1: come to New York. We put them up at our
Speaker 1: apartment where we have much less space than them. We
Speaker 1: slept on the couch, they slept in our bedroom. We
Speaker 1: took them out to dinner. They they did the same
Speaker 1: thing they would only they would pay. They paid for
Speaker 1: a couple dinners and then the last one, Jared went
Speaker 1: behind their back and paid and their two friends had
Speaker 1: joined us. They acted like he was insane. They go,
Speaker 1: you don't even know these people, the new people that joined,
Speaker 1: you don't even know them. Why would you pay for them?
Speaker 1: They went like crazy. We were like, we got it,
Speaker 1: it's fine, like it like so be h, yeah, be
Speaker 1: be the kind of generous that infuriates Italian people.
Speaker 3: That's that's what ever we should aim for.
Speaker 2: Well because even like I know that for a fact
Speaker 2: that they're richer families than me growing up, but like
Speaker 2: my mom would feed anybody at any moment, and it's
Speaker 2: actually rude if you didn't eat. And I had friends
Speaker 2: that they're like, well we can't eat the fruit. My
Speaker 2: mom says that's expensive, or like that's for the lunch,
Speaker 2: and it's fine, like every family is different.
Speaker 3: It's lunch.
Speaker 2: It's like it is just like you know, culture whatever.
Speaker 2: But I don't know. It did rage me if that
Speaker 2: was the point of like are we have we gotten?
Speaker 2: So not wanting to be uncomfortable or like stretching for
Speaker 2: a little or just like having joy from treating a
Speaker 2: friend on their birth but like I just can't.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a like like a subway take designed
Speaker 1: to infuriate the Internet or something.
Speaker 2: Also, yeah, everything's a take. Now, I'm like scrolling my
Speaker 2: phone and scrolling and who are you?
Speaker 3: And why why am I listening to it?
Speaker 1: Everything's to take now, Okay, let's get into our what
Speaker 1: would Sister Peg do? This is our weekly segment where
Speaker 1: we direct you to I.
Speaker 3: Have a heated rivalry thing.
Speaker 2: I do have to talk, Okay, So in the Vegas Airport,
Speaker 2: it's me being humiliated, you'll like it.
Speaker 3: So I'm in the Vegas king go on.
Speaker 2: So it's like, I'm at the Vega but my flight's
Speaker 2: delayed for four hours, and there's no Delta lounge, but
Speaker 2: there's Centurion AMX lounges. They're both at forty five minutes
Speaker 2: to an hour wait, but one is only thirty seats.
Speaker 2: But I'm like, you know what, I'm here for four hours,
Speaker 2: like I'll fucking I'll wait. I'll wait to get into
Speaker 2: this thing.
Speaker 3: And I'm reading my book and so I'm like reading
Speaker 3: while I'm waiting, I'm walking. Did I buy something at
Speaker 3: the Kate Spades store at the Vegas Airport? I did?
Speaker 2: But I always wonder who's buying stuff there, People with
Speaker 2: delayed flights waiting to get into the Centurion lounge. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's who it is. That's who it is. And so
Speaker 2: I'm finally let in. I'm at the bar, I'm having
Speaker 2: a good time and a woman comes and it's my bookmark,
Speaker 2: which is someone gifted it, but it looks like an
Speaker 2: actual photo.
Speaker 3: It's like cannon on the background.
Speaker 2: It's a printed, like four x six glossy photo, but
Speaker 2: it's of Shane and Illy from the show. So it's like,
Speaker 2: So she the woman from outside comes and goes, it
Speaker 2: was is this yours?
Speaker 3: And I go, yeah, it's mine. I'm like, this is humiliating,
Speaker 3: Like you just knew it was mine? And she's like,
Speaker 3: you know, I looked around the lounge. It's like when I.
Speaker 2: Saw you reading, she said, She goes, you're the only
Speaker 2: one reading. I was like okay. But then the bartender
Speaker 2: ended up loving heated Rebberry two. She showed me photos
Speaker 2: of her going to the disco and since or the
Speaker 2: rave like so elderly, and it was her birthday and
Speaker 2: I was gifted two separate packs of heated rivalry stickers
Speaker 2: on my journeys. So then I got to give her
Speaker 2: stickers for her birthday, and it was like a really
Speaker 2: like fun kind of oh that's cute moment, but listen,
Speaker 2: oh about gifts. So I did two nights at a
Speaker 2: hotel and then I did four nights at a friend's
Speaker 2: house and they and like when I got to my room,
Speaker 2: they have gifts for me. And I go, why do
Speaker 2: you have gifts for me? And they said, it's a
Speaker 2: Gwyneth Paltrow thing. Gwyneth said to if someone's staying at
Speaker 2: your house, you should have a welcome gift for them.
Speaker 2: And Chelsea Fagan is someone I follow and she she
Speaker 2: does little baskets in the guest room too.
Speaker 3: But I got three heated rivalry bracelets.
Speaker 2: And a sticker pack, and then in Vegas, I got
Speaker 2: a sticker pack as well, showering you, And yeah, I
Speaker 2: love it. I mean it's very sweet and I use
Speaker 2: them a lot. And having more and more heated rivalry
Speaker 2: stickers makes me more generous because I was acting stingy
Speaker 2: and now I have so many duplicates and fun ones.
Speaker 2: So I sent out some letters, some cards. Well yeah,
Speaker 2: that mean for me, it's so it is so real.
Speaker 2: I felt so red in a way.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I was just at my friend's house who's Canadian,
Speaker 1: and she was like, oh, I'm going to be in
Speaker 1: Canada for most of the summer, and I go, oh,
Speaker 1: are you going to the cottage? And she was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know the lingo And I was like, it's heated rivalry, bitch,
Speaker 1: Like it's like, come on, it's.
Speaker 3: Also I think it's like six thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: She thought, I just but she thought I just knew
Speaker 1: that they call lake houses cottages. Like I was like
Speaker 1: studying Canadian lingo to like be able to speak to
Speaker 1: her or something.
Speaker 3: I was like, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: No, I have to study the people that choose not
Speaker 2: to watch the show because there's like a certain attitude
Speaker 2: that I hate.
Speaker 1: It is where Canadians are like watch it, I don't
Speaker 1: want to and it's like it's a export.
Speaker 2: I go, like a full Canadian production, all Canadian music,
Speaker 2: and you're just six s up and you're just like
Speaker 2: for what, But I don't watch Marvel and so like,
Speaker 2: I have to stop being so judgmental. But I just
Speaker 2: I find their reasoning sinister. I don't think it's coming
Speaker 2: from a neutral place or like you know, Nikki Bell,
Speaker 2: he does the fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So he I saw him on a pod clip and
Speaker 2: he was just like, yeah, I'm like, well, someone said
Speaker 2: I watched the first episode and I got the gist,
Speaker 2: And I go, what other show would you say that about?
Speaker 2: Like that's so psychotic to watch an episode be like
Speaker 2: got the gist, I go of a ten year love
Speaker 2: story from what?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you watch the first episode Game of Thrones
Speaker 1: and you're like, I got the GISTs. They're gonna fight people.
Speaker 1: Everyone wants to be king. I get it.
Speaker 2: And so Nick he said, he goes, well, I'm gay,
Speaker 2: so I don't need to watch gay things because I
Speaker 2: live the gay thing. And I'm like, this is what
Speaker 2: Matteo always talks about, like gay guys only supported women
Speaker 2: for so long, Like I think like even gay guy
Speaker 2: could like stand up comedians like Mateo is one of
Speaker 2: the first, you know what I mean of that kind
Speaker 2: of level, like and he had to become very fuckable,
Speaker 2: like he he had to put on thirty pounds.
Speaker 1: But you should watch it if you want more gay
Speaker 1: representation in stories.
Speaker 2: I know because someone I Yeah, it's like it's very
Speaker 2: it's all very interesting to me, you know, I'm a
Speaker 2: sociological person. Yeah, you know what I mean. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's so that's but to be like, yeah, I'm gay,
Speaker 2: so why would I watch a gay thing. I'm like,
Speaker 2: that's such a weird take to not I Yeah, I
Speaker 2: just don't get it. But again, I don't watch Marvel,
Speaker 2: so like I do separate myself from a lot of
Speaker 2: the culture.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess there can be Jean, is that you
Speaker 1: don't like like Superhero which I'm also not really into
Speaker 1: that genre, and I saw a Black Panther, Like there's
Speaker 1: something I saw Deadpool. Yeah, like some things are a sensation.
Speaker 3: Go watch it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just not gonna blindly go to every single
Speaker 1: thing in that genre, but like many many people do,
Speaker 1: or just like I love Marvel, I'm going to that,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: But going to Mortal Kombat made me connected to those people.
Speaker 2: I understood something where I go oh, because people are
Speaker 2: like is it good, I'm like, I don't really know
Speaker 2: how to answer that. But I have the time of
Speaker 2: my life, Like I don't you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, it's fun. Like some people die,
Speaker 2: but then they also there's like a lot of realms,
Speaker 2: so no one's really dead because the realms are ever
Speaker 2: changing and the lightning can bring you at any moment,
Speaker 2: and you could be not good at fighting, but you
Speaker 2: will win.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But I think the other thing is like, if you've
Speaker 1: tried a genre and you don't like it, that's fine.
Speaker 1: So are you when somebody says that they don't want
Speaker 1: to watch that like heat a rivalry? Are you saying
Speaker 1: you just don't watch romance stuff like anything where there's
Speaker 1: a romantic relationship, you don't watch that, And that's fine.
Speaker 1: If you're a person's like I actually don't like romance.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't like romance. I'm not into that.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's fine. But if you're just like, nah, that's
Speaker 1: not for me, we have to investigate a little bit more.
Speaker 3: Well, it's so funny.
Speaker 2: So I talked to some I'm actually gonna text him
Speaker 2: right now, but I was talking to someone who's like,
Speaker 2: I just really care about hockey, so like I wanted
Speaker 2: more hockey. And then I watched an interview with Jacob
Speaker 2: Tierney who was like, the show is so much about
Speaker 2: their memory. It's like their story. So it's like they
Speaker 2: didn't remember the hockey. That's not important to them. It's
Speaker 2: like what you remember is seeing your crush and I was.
Speaker 3: Like, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1: You want a bunch of quick cuts of guys playing hockey,
Speaker 1: Like they don't play a professional level hockey.
Speaker 2: That would be hard, you know, but this guy wanted hockey,
Speaker 2: and I well, but yeah, watch Mighty Ducks, Like, fuck yeah,
Speaker 2: watch hockey. There's hockey, it's on, it's available all the time.
Speaker 1: Okay, let's get into what WWSPD What would Sister Peg Do?
Speaker 1: This is our weekly segment where we direct you to
Speaker 1: more information about what we talked about today in the episode.
Speaker 1: You know, an organization, a book, a doc, and this
Speaker 1: week we wanted to point you to the Netflix documentary
Speaker 1: Capturing the Killer Nurse, which is all about the heinous
Speaker 1: murders committed by registered nurse Charles Cullen, who Lisa covered.
Speaker 1: There are just so many murders and some researchers even
Speaker 1: say he could have killed as many as four hundred people.
Speaker 3: So if you want to know more about this.
Speaker 1: Freak, check out the doc that's on Netflix, and that'll
Speaker 1: be linked in our show notes and saved in our
Speaker 1: WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page, which is That's Messed
Speaker 1: Up pod, And you know, you can go on there
Speaker 1: to talk to other people about the episodes and share
Speaker 1: comments and fun times.
Speaker 2: Thank you and fun times for me, fun times, And
Speaker 2: next week we'll be doing Venom. Speaking of Superheroes, Season seven,
Speaker 2: episode eighteen.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good one. We'll see you guys next week. Bye.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to
Speaker 1: That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod,
Speaker 2: and follow us personally at Kara Klank and.
Speaker 3: At Glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien
Speaker 2: and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain.
Speaker 1: And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker
Speaker 1: Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Koperski for our theme song
Speaker 1: and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to
Speaker 1: our executive producers Georgia hard Start Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Amer
Speaker 1: and everybody at exactly right media.
Speaker 3: Dun dun h