1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. Joining us now is Tim Alberta. 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: He is a staff writer for the Atlantic. But more importantly, 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 2: he's got a new book. Let's put it up there 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: on the screen. The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 2: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism is available now 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: and we're gonna have a link down in our description. 15 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 4: Tim. 16 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 3: It's great to see you man, Good. 17 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 4: To see you, Good to see you Risks. 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm enjoying it very much. I told Jim about 19 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: halfway through. 20 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 2: I think, yeah, Shiate, I loved American Carnage, which was 21 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: it was your first book, or that was that it 22 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 2: was a big one, but it was a great read, 23 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 2: tough fact and the time, well, I think you've come 24 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 2: through with this one, so give us a little bit 25 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 2: of a synopsis why you decided to write the book. 26 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: And it's not as big as an American carnage, but it's 27 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: still it's up there. What are you trying to convey 28 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 2: to people about American evangelicals and their interaction with the 29 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: political system. 30 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I was raised in 31 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 4: the Evangelical Church. I'm still very much a practicing Christian, 32 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 4: really have a strong relationship with Jesus. And in my 33 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,759 Speaker 4: just professional journey working in politics over the last almost 34 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 4: twenty years covering politics, I began to just since this 35 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 4: just to feel a disillusionment with the ways in which 36 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,680 Speaker 4: the church was becoming ever more not just ever more political, 37 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 4: but ever more sort of radicalized politically, and by the way, 38 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 4: like we have seen that not just in the evangelical 39 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 4: right wing church, we have seen that in the progressive 40 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 4: left wing church. This is my tradition, the white evangelical 41 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 4: tradition is is you know what I was born out 42 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 4: of in the church. My dad was an evangelical minister. 43 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 4: My mom worked on the staff, So like I grew 44 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 4: up physically literally in the church. It was my home, 45 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 4: it was my community, and I think for many of us. 46 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 4: It's always a little uncomfortable to talk about your tribe, 47 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 4: to air the dirty laundry, to sort of, you know, 48 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 4: feel like you are giving ammunition to those on the outside. 49 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 4: And so for a long time I didn't do that, 50 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,920 Speaker 4: and I just sort of kept quiet. And I think 51 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 4: over the last six seven, eight years, and it's not 52 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 4: just Trump. Trump looms large in all of this, of course, 53 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 4: but there's a lot of things happening culturally and politically 54 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 4: that just we're feeling. It just it seemed to me 55 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 4: that the church was beginning to lose sight of its 56 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 4: true purpose, it's true mission, it's true calling in the culture, 57 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 4: which is to evangelize. It is to take the gospel 58 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 4: of Jesus Christ to all the nations, and it is 59 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 4: to share that good news, and to do it without 60 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 4: erecting barriers to entering along the way, in other words, 61 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 4: sort of replacing the biblical standard for why do we 62 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 4: come to church with sort of a different standard of well, 63 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,399 Speaker 4: hold on, who did you vote for? Did you get vaccinated? 64 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 4: These other litmus tests that were suddenly keeping people from 65 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 4: coming into church and learning about Jesus. And so that's 66 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 4: ultimately why I wrote the book. 67 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: Okay, you talk a little bit about how even that 68 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: term evangelical came to mean less about your approach to 69 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: the Bible or your approach to the faith and more 70 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: it was more of a cultural signifier than anything else. 71 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about what were the specifics of 72 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: that cultural signifier and what were some of the major divides. 73 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: I mean, Trump is the obvious one, but in terms 74 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: of this kind of split that you identify in the church, 75 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: what were some of the other major turning points. 76 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, so we saw 77 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 4: I'll never forget this moment we saw in the twenty 78 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 4: sixteen Republican primary and it was South Carolina voting, and 79 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 4: it was when they did the exit polling, three quarters 80 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 4: of all Republican voters self identified in the exit polls 81 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 4: as evangelicalizes. And it was this moment where I'm like, well, 82 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 4: hold on a second, if everybody's in evangelical, then nobody's 83 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 4: an evangeline, right. And we've seen some social science on 84 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 4: this over the decades, how this has sort of evolved 85 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 4: starting back fifty years ago with the moral majority. We 86 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 4: don't need to do the whole history of this, but 87 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 4: basically that term in a cultural context has taken on 88 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 4: the meaning of effectively conservative, white Republican rather than being 89 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 4: a spiritual signifier, rather than speaking to any sort of 90 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 4: theological doctrine, it's really speaking to partisan political identification. And 91 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 4: my argument in the book is that is profoundly damaging 92 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 4: to the witness of Jesus Christ, who last I checked, 93 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 4: was not a registered Republican or a registered Democrat for 94 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 4: that matter. What we saw also during the Trump years, 95 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 4: which was really interesting, and there's been some things written 96 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 4: about this, some good social science research, we saw simultaneously 97 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 4: a pretty good uptick in the number of Trump voters 98 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 4: who self identified to polsters as evangelical. But also at 99 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 4: the same time we saw a pretty rapid downturn in 100 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 4: the number of those same people who attended church everything. 101 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 4: So in other words, you had people identifying as evangelicals 102 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 4: while they were going to church less and less. So 103 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 4: there's a cultural phenomenon here. I'm not necessarily arguing that 104 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 4: we jettison the term evangelical. I have many friends and 105 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 4: family who I love who are deeply attached to the term. 106 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 4: I understand why, but I also think we have to 107 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 4: think critically those of us inside the church who care 108 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 4: about that mission of the church as far as what 109 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 4: that term means to the outside world. 110 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 3: That's interesting. So I grew up in Collegstation, Texas. 111 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: I grew up a lot of evangelical, specifically Southern Baptists, 112 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: and I'm curious though, if you think they ever didn't 113 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 2: consider themselves political, because from my perspective growing up around 114 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: these people, as an outsider frequently being evangelized, I very 115 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 2: much noticed how deeply involved in local, state, and national 116 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 2: politics that the church was not only around abortion advocacy, 117 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: but really tied to the presidency of George W. 118 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 4: Bush. 119 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,840 Speaker 2: And the way I would ask them about it too, 120 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: you know, really in this way, and they would explain 121 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 2: it to me. They're like, look, the Southern Baptist Convention 122 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 2: itself exists because of a political act tracing all the 123 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: way back to the Civil War and splits over segregation 124 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 2: and Jim Oh and American emangelism itself is separate from 125 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 2: the way that it may be interpreted in Europe and 126 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: really evolved, you know, through a split on abolitionism, and 127 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 2: has always been tied directly to the American state, at 128 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: the very least not in power, but trying to pressure 129 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: it from the outside. So is it really all that 130 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: different in history? Like, what do you make of kind 131 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 2: of what I'm saying. 132 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 4: I mean, listen, your observation is spot on, first of all, 133 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 4: So I think the question here is really one of degree. 134 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 4: Let's be clear. I think Christians, as with any other group, 135 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 4: any other group of citizens, they have an obligation to 136 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 4: be involved and engaged at a civic level, and they 137 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 4: should try to make their voice heard in the public square. 138 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 4: There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I think what I'm 139 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 4: trying to detail in the book is the point at 140 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 4: which it crosses over from sort of a healthy engagement 141 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 4: to an unhealthy engagement. And really not just in terms 142 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 4: of sort of ones, you know, selling one's soul to 143 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 4: Donald Trump or any of that sort of hyperbolic stuff. 144 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 4: I think there are examples of that, obviously, but I 145 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 4: think we're also dealing with you know, when you begin 146 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 4: to sort of pair conspiracy theories inside the church with 147 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 4: the evangel with the evangelizing, I should say, of the 148 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 4: witness of Jesus Christ, that becomes very dangerous. So when 149 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 4: you look at a lot of the polling over the 150 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 4: last two years and you see that the folks who 151 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 4: are most likely to believe that the election was stolen, 152 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 4: the people who are most likely to believe in QAnon, 153 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 4: the people who are most likely to buy into a 154 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 4: couple of these different you know, you call them conspiracy theories, 155 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 4: call them fringe beliefs, whatever you want to say. They 156 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 4: are white evangelicals. Time and time and time again. We 157 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 4: see that. I've seen it in my own community. The 158 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 4: problem with that, aside from just the epistemological crisis that 159 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 4: we're living through here as far as information, the problem 160 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 4: with that is that, in my view, and I just 161 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 4: have to say this as clearly as I can, the 162 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 4: death and resurrection of Jesus is not a conspiracy theory. 163 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 4: And if you, as a Christian are and I know 164 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 4: Christians like this, if you are simultaneously proselytizing for Jesus 165 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 4: Christ and proselytizing for QAnon, you are sapping the Gospel 166 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 4: of its credibility fundamentally. So I do think that that 167 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 4: is one of the big differences. You're absolutely right that 168 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 4: in many ways, the modern American evangelical movement, dating back 169 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 4: at least fifty or sixty years, has been in many 170 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 4: ways political. I also think, interestingly, if you look at 171 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 4: sort of the paragon of evangelicalism, Billy Graham, who of 172 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 4: course prayed over every American president, had these deep relationships 173 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 4: with Nixon and others. Billy Graham laid in his life, 174 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 4: gave this sort of contrition laden confessional where he talked 175 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 4: about how in retrospect it was a great regret and 176 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 4: how he really felt like he had undermined in some 177 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 4: way the witness of Jesus Christ because of his political attachments. 178 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 4: So I just think that the book, if nothing else, 179 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 4: it's a call to Christians to be very careful and 180 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 4: very discerning. It's not to not be engaged politically. It's 181 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 4: not to try to make your voice heard. That those 182 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: things are fine, but an over realized sense of where 183 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 4: your citizenship is. We are called as Christians to be 184 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 4: citizens of a kingdom that is not of this world, 185 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 4: as Jesus said. And if you become so attached and 186 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 4: find all of your hope and your purpose and tie 187 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 4: all of you your self determination to political activity in 188 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 4: this world, you begin to lose sight of the next. 189 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So, Tim, the book is very personal, clearly, and 190 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: like I said, I really appreciate it and has challenged 191 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: me in a number of ways. I'm going to try 192 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: to ask this as a non believer very delicately, But 193 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: you know, what I see you tracking here is effectively 194 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: a very deep seated tribal identity that leads inevitably to 195 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: this sort of like us versus them mentality, which also 196 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: makes it very easy to justify things which would otherwise 197 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: be unjustifiable. And I see this, you know, again, coming 198 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: from a non believer perspective, as effectively a feature rather 199 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: than a bug, of fervent religiosity. And I'll give you 200 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: a non American you know example of this. You have 201 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: these settlers right now, Jewish settlers in the West Bank 202 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: who really believe they are like doing God's work when 203 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: they are murdering Palestinians and kicking them off of their land. 204 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: So you know what's your reaction to that? That when 205 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: you have this sort of you know, fundamentalist, fervent religiosity, 206 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: this is the direction that it frequently tends to go 207 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: in in terms of tribalism us versus them, and you know, 208 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: quote unquote good people justifying things that should not really 209 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: be justified. 210 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 4: I'm so glad you asked Crystal. I mean, so I 211 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 4: have a chapter in the book. You probably haven't gotten 212 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 4: there until later in the book, but probably my favorite 213 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 4: chapter in the whole book, even though it's not really 214 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 4: sexy from a material standpoint, where I'm talking with scholars 215 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 4: about sort of the history of when religious justification leads 216 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 4: to great crimes against humanity. And we've seen this, you know, 217 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 4: throughout the centuries. This is nothing new, I mean, and 218 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 4: we've seen it with Christianity, we've seen it with Islam, 219 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 4: We've seen it with other faith traditions. I think your 220 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 4: question is absolutely appropriate, and part of the reason again 221 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 4: that I'm writing the book is to try to warn 222 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 4: about this that when religious identity properly realized and rooted 223 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 4: in the specific to the Christian tradition, rooted in Jesus's 224 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 4: teachings that you love your enemy and you pray for 225 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 4: those who persecute you, and you turn the other cheek, 226 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 4: there's something fundamentally so distinct and countercultural about the teachings 227 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 4: of Jesus. There is zero justification for violence found anywhere 228 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 4: in the New Testament. I mean, the apostle Paul is 229 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 4: locked up and being beaten, and he's singing hymns and 230 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 4: talking about how he's praying to convert the guards who 231 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 4: are abusing him. Peter, who is Jesus's right hand disciple. 232 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 4: He's writing his epistles from Rome, locked up under brutal 233 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 4: Roman occupation in the first century, as Christians were treated 234 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 4: terribly there, and he's telling them that your suffering brings 235 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 4: you closer to Jesus, and you will be judged by 236 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 4: how you treat those who are abusing you. So you 237 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 4: can find a twisted religious justification for violence and for 238 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 4: identitarian conflict if you are looking for it. But what 239 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 4: I'm trying to emphasize in the book is that if 240 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,319 Speaker 4: those of us who are truly followers of Jesus, we 241 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 4: are called to something greater. And I share your concerns 242 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 4: with any religion that is twisted and used to justify 243 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 4: that sort of conflict. I really do. 244 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 2: It's a huge problem, Tim whenever I talk to evangelicals 245 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: and they get that they've been hearing now since twenty sixteen, 246 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: how can you support an adulter or somebody who obviously 247 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: doesn't believe in God? 248 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 3: And they're like, look, we're like any other voters. We 249 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 3: take what we can get. 250 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 2: We believe abortion is literally murder, and this is the 251 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: person who got it done for us. 252 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,440 Speaker 3: This is why we support Trump. 253 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: What do you think about the practicality of evangelism when 254 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 2: it intersects in politics and why so many do support 255 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: Trump today? 256 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, look, I mean twenty sixteen, you view that 257 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 4: in its own narrower context. Right, there's this transactional relationship. 258 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 4: It's easy to forget now, but you go back and 259 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 4: look at twenty sixteen, and you know, evangelicals, White evangelicals 260 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 4: were the softest supporters of Donald Trump. He added Pence 261 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 4: to the ticket, and he released the Supreme Court list 262 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 4: specifically to assuage the concerns of that group, and he 263 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 4: went to New York and met with hundreds of them 264 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 4: at a Marriott. I was there, and it was a 265 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 4: hard cell. And he had Huckabee, and he had Franklin 266 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 4: Graham and others vouching for him, Jerry Folwell Junior. They 267 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 4: really had to do the hard cell. So that was 268 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 4: this transactional relationship. I think how it's evolved, and this 269 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 4: is really the psychological component of this is fascinating. I 270 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 4: think many of these people, they are under no illusion 271 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 4: about Trump's morality, that they don't think that he's become 272 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 4: born again, that there's some supernatural transformation of the man. 273 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 4: I think for many of them, and this is kind 274 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 4: of a thematic backbone of the book, they believe that 275 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 4: America is on its last legs, that Judeo Christian America 276 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 4: is on its last legs, that the secular culture is 277 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 4: coming for them, and that if they don't do something 278 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 4: about it, if they don't fight back, then they're going 279 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 4: to lose this country. And they look at Donald Trump, 280 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 4: and in some sense, even though on paper he's the 281 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 4: exact wrong match for them because of his personal lifestyle 282 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 4: and all these things, he's also actually the perfect match 283 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 4: for them because he's not a Christian, he's not bound 284 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 4: by their norms, he doesn't have to play by their rules. 285 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 4: Mike Huckabee and others have given voice to this where 286 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 4: they've basically said, look, the barbarians are at the gates, 287 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 4: and we need a barbarian to keep them at bay. 288 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 4: And I think that that is sort of the justification 289 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 4: that a lot of these folks have reached, where they've said, listen, 290 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 4: I'm horrified by the guy's behavior. I WinCE every time 291 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 4: I hear him talk. But I'm so afraid of this 292 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 4: country being overrun by people who are going to you know, persecure. 293 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 4: Look at COVID nineteen. They shut down our churches. You know, 294 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 4: the secularism is on the march. They're coming for us. 295 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 4: And I think, let me be clear, I think that's 296 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 4: a very unhealthy approach for the Christian to take. We're 297 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 4: told time and again throughout Scripture fear not. It's the 298 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 4: most frequently cited command Old Testament news fear not. Like again, 299 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 4: if you find your identity so wrapped up in America 300 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 4: and in these sort of tribal identitarian movements, you do 301 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 4: start to lose sight of where your calling ultimately is. 302 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 4: And so that fear, while I understand it, I also 303 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 4: just want to warn against it. 304 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: So when you say the barbarians are at the gates, 305 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: who are the barbarians? Because this is one of the 306 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: things you talk about in the book too. One of 307 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: the heroes who's name I'm blanking on, talks about being 308 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: good losers. 309 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 310 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, that there's this sense that we're losing or we've lost, 311 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: and we have to be good losers. And I'm just 312 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: looking at that, I'm like, what exactly are you losing. 313 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: What have you lost? What has created this sense of 314 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: just absolutely existential dread that again ends up, you know, 315 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: justifying switching from decrying the immorality of Bill Clinton to 316 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: just excusing literally anything that Donald Trump does. 317 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, look, this is this is the million 318 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 4: dollar question. And you know, some of this just comes 319 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 4: back to the idea of like desperate times call for 320 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 4: desperate measures. Right. You know, twenty or thirty years ago, 321 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 4: when Bill Clinton was carrying on with Monica Lewinsky, well 322 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 4: there was peace and prosperity in the country was still 323 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 4: stay So yeah, we could rebuke him. But now you know, 324 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 4: again the barbarians are at the gates. Now who are 325 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 4: those barbarians? So if you think about some of these 326 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 4: ascendant Christian nationalist movements that I document in the book, 327 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 4: you don't have to have a polycy PhD to figure 328 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 4: out when they say that we're going to reclaim America. 329 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 4: We're going to restore America. Like who are they reclaiming 330 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 4: it from? Right? Look, fifty or sixty years ago, this 331 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 4: was a country that was ninety percent white, it was 332 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 4: ninety five percent Christian. Everybody went to church, you know, demographically, sociologically, 333 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 4: it was a different place, right, And so I think 334 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 4: a lot of folks are invested, deeply invested in this 335 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 4: idea that they need to take back this sort of 336 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 4: idealized Christian America. There are any number of problems with that, 337 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 4: but I think just at its core demographically statistically, that 338 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 4: America isn't coming back. We are secularizing, we are diversifying. 339 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 4: The person you mentioned is John Dixon. Yes, he's a 340 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 4: professor at Wheaton College. He's Australian, and which gives him 341 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 4: this fabulous perspective because Australia just in the last couple 342 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 4: of years officially became statistically a post Christian nation. Christians 343 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: are now a minority in Australia and we in the 344 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 4: United States are tracking about ten to fifteen years behind Australia. 345 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 4: So he gives this wonderful talk at Wheaton, and I 346 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 4: would invite people to try and find it online, where 347 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 4: he says to his American Christian brethren, he says, you know, 348 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 4: greetings from the future, my friends. Let me tell you 349 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 4: about when you lose this status in society, this majority status, 350 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 4: when you lose the commanding heights of society, that it 351 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 4: is a good thing for Christians, because if you look 352 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 4: at Christianity dating back to Constantine, there's always been this 353 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 4: kind of funny inverse relationship between the amount of social, 354 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 4: cultural political power that Christians have in a society and 355 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 4: the health of Christianity in that society. In other words, 356 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 4: when Christianity is at the margins, it tends to flourish 357 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 4: because of the countercultural message. But when Christianity tries to 358 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 4: dominate a culture through through government and through culture wars, 359 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 4: then its witness really sort of dies on the vine. 360 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 4: And so when he talks about losing well, the idea 361 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,480 Speaker 4: here is your witness to the world is so much 362 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 4: more effective when they see you filled with grace and 363 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 4: forgiveness and love for your neighbor, rather than this fear 364 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 4: that I was describing earlier, in this desire to dominate 365 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 4: your neighbor because you feel like you're losing something. 366 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, that's really fascinating. 367 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: My last question for you is about how you think 368 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: this is going to operationalize, so Roe versus Wade. Obviously 369 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: that was a longstanding want for the Catholic and Evangelical community, 370 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: but now it's done. Donald Trump has distinguished himself from 371 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: the rest of the gop Field by not mentioning one 372 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 2: of his signatory accomplishments and if anything, actually attacking many 373 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: of the pro life people who are more so than 374 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: him in the Republican field. Yet I have not seen 375 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 2: any data yet about diminishing evangelical support. So there's been 376 00:18:56,840 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: a theorized I've seen from some folks who are in 377 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: the pro life community. We're like, we're going to withhold 378 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: our vote against Trump. Do you think that will actually 379 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 2: happen at scale? And what do they make of him 380 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: politically disting himself from pro life movement. 381 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 4: Now, So, as far as twenty twenty four is concerned, 382 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 4: this is the whole ball of wax. I really believe 383 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 4: that because something that we haven't I think we in 384 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 4: the media, we just haven't paid enough attention to the 385 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 4: fact that this is the first post Roe v. Wade 386 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 4: presidential election for fifty years, millions and millions of single 387 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 4: issue pro life voters have been mobilized in a presidential 388 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 4: election around this idea of abortion, but also of Supreme 389 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 4: Court justices hanging in the balance. Was a federal issue. 390 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 4: It has now been defederalized. Effectively, it has thrown back 391 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 4: to the states. So the question for me, when I'm 392 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 4: looking at evangelical support for Donald Trump isn't necessarily the 393 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 4: raw percentages we've seen him, you know, according to which 394 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 4: exit polling that you're looking at, he's typically winning between 395 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 4: seventy five and eighty percent of white evangelicals, which, by 396 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 4: the way, is consistent with Republican nominees dating back decades. 397 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 4: Spectation is that he will do that again. But in 398 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 4: terms of raw numbers, could you see some significant chunk? 399 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 4: And by significant chunk, I mean even like two or 400 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 4: three percent, four or five percent, I mean that would 401 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 4: be enough. Yeah, could you see some significant chunk of 402 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 4: those single issue pro life voters decide? You know what, 403 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 4: I can't make peace with voting for this man again. 404 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,919 Speaker 4: I also can't make peace with voting for Joe Biden 405 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 4: because he's pro choice and because of other issues that 406 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: they might disagree with the Democrats on. Could you see 407 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 4: them stay home? Could you see them leave the top 408 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 4: of the ticket empty? Could you see them vote for 409 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 4: a third party candidate? I think that that is a 410 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 4: very real possibility, and I think that if you're in 411 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,479 Speaker 4: the Trump campaign right now, you should be deeply concerned 412 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 4: about that. Yeah, Because I mean just if you just 413 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: look at the raw numbers here, there's no way he 414 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 4: wins without the same turnout, the same showing from those 415 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 4: voters in sixteen and twenty. If there's any meaningful drop off, 416 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 4: I don't see how the math works for him to 417 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 4: win again. 418 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 3: Good point. 419 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: My last question for you, Tim, which is kind of 420 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: a big one, but anyway, why are the cultural signifiers 421 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: for evangelicals all on culture? Why is it abortion when 422 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: honestly what the Bible has to say about abortion is 423 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 1: very ambiguous at best. Why is it on gay marriage? 424 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: Why is it now on things like taking the vaccine 425 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: or not when there's so much more in the Bible, 426 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: not that I'm an expert, but on ministering to the 427 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,280 Speaker 1: poor and you know, the immigrant et cetera. Why isn't 428 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: that the bleeding edge focus of this movement and instead 429 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: instead it's all on like whatever the right wing cultural 430 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: issue of the day is. 431 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 4: It's a totally fair question. Let me say two things. 432 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 4: Excuse me. I think first, what I would emphasize is 433 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 4: that the abortion issue, for many of these folks, they 434 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,479 Speaker 4: don't view it as a political issue. They don't view 435 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,880 Speaker 4: it as a cultural issue. They view it fundamentally as 436 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 4: a moral, ethical, spiritual issue, that life is made in 437 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 4: the image of God. That when Jesus said, render on 438 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 4: to Caesar, what is Caesar? And to God's what is 439 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 4: God's many people miss the application of that. He's talking 440 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 4: to a man in the crowd, and he says, hold 441 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 4: up that Denari, that the Roman coin. He says, whose 442 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 4: image is on it? He says, Caesar's onto Caesar, give 443 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 4: back because that coin has Caesar's image, but you have 444 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 4: God's image on you. So give that coin back to Caesar, 445 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 4: but give yourself to God, because you belong to God. 446 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 4: So I think those in the pro life community who 447 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 4: are truly deeply invested in this as an ethical spiritual issue, 448 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 4: I understand why they are so deeply invested in fighting there. 449 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 4: I think your point about where is the concern for 450 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,120 Speaker 4: the orphan, for the widow, for the poor, and the destitude, 451 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 4: I mean it is. I think the simplest answer to it, Krista, 452 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 4: and the honest answer to it is that those issues 453 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 4: don't mobilize voters around election time. And I have spent 454 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 4: years pressing people and I do, as you'll see in 455 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 4: certain parts of the book, putting that question in really 456 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 4: uncomfortable ways to some of these leaders, saying, listen, if 457 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 4: in fact we're truly trying to be holistic Christians here, 458 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 4: then why are we selectively choosing some of these biblical 459 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 4: precepts instead of embracing the whole thing and letting the 460 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 4: chips fall where they may. Because again, my concern is 461 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 4: that we diminish the credibility of the witness of Jesus 462 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 4: Christ if we are just cherry picking certain things when 463 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 4: there are other teachings clearly coming through scripture, Old Testament 464 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 4: and New Testament where we are taught to care for 465 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 4: the stranger and the sojournal and to love our neighbor 466 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 4: as ourselves. Like if there is one command that Jesus 467 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,159 Speaker 4: is emphasizing again and again and again, love your neighbor 468 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,719 Speaker 4: as yourself. And I don't see a lot of that 469 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 4: in the political system. I don't see it on the right, 470 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 4: I don't see it on the left. And for those 471 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 4: of us who profess to follow Jesus, I think it's 472 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 4: really important to step back and reevaluate the totality of 473 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 4: the message rather than, as you're saying, just pick the 474 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 4: parts of it that can help us win an election. 475 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: Wow, we're really really fascinating talking with you again. The 476 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: book is The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory American 477 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 2: Evangelicals in the Age of Extremism. We're going to have 478 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: a link down in the description, and we appreciate you 479 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: joining us. 480 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a. 481 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,919 Speaker 1: Great book, Tim, I'm really enjoying it. Thank you for 482 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: you know. I hope my questions were okay. 483 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 4: Thanks. Guys are the best. 484 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 3: No, thank you very much. We'll see you guys later. 485 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 4: Hmm.