WEBVTT - Living Stonewall 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:20.556 Pushkin, But I was so happy to be fighting back 0:00:20.556 --> 0:00:23.716 in the standing up for who I was. We were happy. 0:00:23.916 --> 0:00:27.356 It probably was the happiest riot in the history of America. 0:00:27.516 --> 0:00:29.596 For a minute, I just stood there. I just stood 0:00:29.636 --> 0:00:32.116 and took it all in, and I knew something was 0:00:32.236 --> 0:00:37.516 changing from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show 0:00:37.556 --> 0:00:40.556 where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news. 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:44.716 I'm Noah Feldman. Welcome to this week's episode, where we're 0:00:44.756 --> 0:00:48.356 going to talk about the fiftieth anniversary of the Stonewall Uprising, 0:00:48.716 --> 0:00:51.196 an iconic moment in the history of the rights of 0:00:51.196 --> 0:00:54.276 gay and lesbian people in the United States. It's also 0:00:54.316 --> 0:00:57.596 an opportunity for reflecting on the universe that existed at 0:00:57.636 --> 0:01:01.556 the time of Stonewall, on government surveillance and oppression of 0:01:01.596 --> 0:01:04.956 gay and lesbian and transgender people, and on the changes 0:01:04.956 --> 0:01:07.476 that have been wrought over the last half century, both 0:01:07.516 --> 0:01:09.756 the changes that have made things so much better for 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:13.196 many gay and lesbian people and the failures to change 0:01:13.316 --> 0:01:17.516 that continue to affect many many people in various areas 0:01:17.596 --> 0:01:20.596 of our lives. We'll start by hearing from Mark Seagull, 0:01:20.956 --> 0:01:24.636 a Stonewall veteran from Philadelphia. When I was eighteen. In 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:29.396 the nineteen sixties, LGBT people were invisible. We weren't on TV, 0:01:29.556 --> 0:01:32.476 we weren't on radio. We were there was no such 0:01:32.516 --> 0:01:35.556 thing as a podcast. So growing up as an eighteen 0:01:35.636 --> 0:01:39.036 year old in Philadelphia City at one point six million, 0:01:39.196 --> 0:01:43.676 I literally thought I was the only gay person there. So, 0:01:44.076 --> 0:01:46.516 since you knew, you couldn't ask people about who you were, 0:01:46.556 --> 0:01:48.436 since it was something that was only talked about in 0:01:48.516 --> 0:01:51.316 whispers about, the only place you could do that was 0:01:51.396 --> 0:01:54.116 at the library, where you might, if you were lucky, 0:01:54.196 --> 0:01:57.196 find five books, and each of those books might tell 0:01:57.196 --> 0:02:05.076 you that you were immoral, illegal, and mentally incompetent. And 0:02:05.156 --> 0:02:07.476 I didn't feel like that was me, and I wanted 0:02:07.516 --> 0:02:11.956 to escape that phil Adelphia invisibility. So I went where 0:02:11.996 --> 0:02:14.556 I thought there were other gay people at eighteen years old, 0:02:14.556 --> 0:02:16.596 which was New York. And I moved to New York 0:02:17.036 --> 0:02:19.956 on May tenth, nineteen sixty nine, a date which I 0:02:19.996 --> 0:02:23.356 will always remember because to me, that representative freedom and 0:02:23.476 --> 0:02:26.076 for the first day I could begin to be myself. 0:02:26.836 --> 0:02:28.476 When you went to New York at that point, there 0:02:28.476 --> 0:02:31.836 were no neon signs which said where there's a gay area, 0:02:31.916 --> 0:02:34.876 because even in New York in nineteen sixty nine, it 0:02:34.916 --> 0:02:37.716 was illegal to be gay, and gay people could not 0:02:37.956 --> 0:02:40.836 legally congregate. Gay people could not go into a bar 0:02:40.916 --> 0:02:43.476 and ask for a drink. A bar that served non 0:02:43.556 --> 0:02:47.036 homosexuals would lose its liquor license. So one of the 0:02:47.036 --> 0:02:50.156 few places you could do that in was an illegal 0:02:50.156 --> 0:02:54.196 bar called the Stonewall. And in the Stonewall you could 0:02:54.236 --> 0:02:58.916 be yourself. It was a dingy, illegal bar which served 0:02:58.956 --> 0:03:02.676 water down drinks, but when you went inside, you could 0:03:02.716 --> 0:03:05.356 be yourself. And that was the magic of Stonewall. On 0:03:05.476 --> 0:03:08.476 June twenty eighth, nineteen sixty nine, the first day of 0:03:08.476 --> 0:03:11.116 the Stonewall Rising, Mark had only been in New York 0:03:11.196 --> 0:03:13.876 for about seven weeks. In New York at the time, 0:03:13.996 --> 0:03:17.596 it was relatively a regular thing for the police to 0:03:17.636 --> 0:03:20.236 come in and raid the Stonewall. I didn't know that 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:24.796 that night because for me eighteen, I had never been 0:03:24.796 --> 0:03:26.956 in a ray before, and so when the police came in, 0:03:27.036 --> 0:03:29.996 I was sort of shocked and terrified to be honest. 0:03:30.716 --> 0:03:33.316 But what usually happened, I found out later, was they 0:03:33.316 --> 0:03:37.236 would come in, take their corruption money and just leave. 0:03:37.556 --> 0:03:39.956 But that night was unusual in the fact that they 0:03:40.076 --> 0:03:43.396 barged him, threw people against the wall, roughed them up 0:03:43.396 --> 0:03:46.916 a little, hurled every kind of insult you can imagine us, 0:03:46.916 --> 0:03:50.316 which we've heard our entire lives. And then what shocked 0:03:50.356 --> 0:03:53.116 me the most was they went to people who looked 0:03:53.156 --> 0:03:56.716 like they were prosperous or successful and literally asked them 0:03:56.716 --> 0:03:59.676 to take out their wallets and took the money from 0:03:59.676 --> 0:04:02.796 those wallets and put it in their pockets. That I 0:04:02.836 --> 0:04:07.396 think showed me how little they disregarded us, that we 0:04:07.516 --> 0:04:11.036 meant nothing to them. This was the police stealing and 0:04:11.156 --> 0:04:13.476 what are we to do? Call the police? They were 0:04:13.516 --> 0:04:16.596 the police. And then slowly but surely they allowed us 0:04:16.596 --> 0:04:20.716 to leave the bar by guarding us, and we didn't disperse. 0:04:21.196 --> 0:04:23.716 And the police they got their corruption money, They did 0:04:23.716 --> 0:04:26.676 what they wanted to do, and they were ready to leave. 0:04:27.556 --> 0:04:31.356 Every time they opened that door, we wouldn't leave. We 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:34.716 eventually started throwing stones, cans, or what anything we could 0:04:34.716 --> 0:04:37.516 find on the street at those doors, and the police 0:04:37.796 --> 0:04:42.236 literally were afraid to open the door. They were imprisoned 0:04:42.396 --> 0:04:46.316 inside stone wall. It is the first time that we 0:04:46.836 --> 0:04:51.436 imprisoned our oppressors. That's the reason why it's called a riot, 0:04:52.156 --> 0:04:55.276 and that's the reason why it's history is for the 0:04:55.316 --> 0:04:59.556 first time, we fought back as a people. As for 0:04:59.596 --> 0:05:03.276 me standing there, you know, I felt full of adrenaline. 0:05:04.476 --> 0:05:08.596 While I was terrified inside the bar, Once I got 0:05:08.676 --> 0:05:14.156 outside the bar, my attitude, mind, body all changed. It 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:19.436 became super charged, full of adrenaline and very joyous. But 0:05:19.476 --> 0:05:21.636 I was so happy to be fighting back and the 0:05:21.756 --> 0:05:24.396 standing up for who I was. And I'm sure everybody 0:05:24.436 --> 0:05:27.796 who was there felt the same exact way. We were happy. 0:05:28.036 --> 0:05:30.236 It probably was the happiest riot in the history of 0:05:30.956 --> 0:05:34.596 American because we were fighting back for the first time. 0:05:35.556 --> 0:05:38.396 There was just a scene of joy. I'm sure the 0:05:38.436 --> 0:05:40.756 police didn't feel that way. I think they were terrified. 0:05:41.396 --> 0:05:43.476 They had never seen anything like that. They'd always thought 0:05:43.516 --> 0:05:46.756 they could do whatever they wanted to us. And this 0:05:46.796 --> 0:05:49.916 went on for hours, and I literally at one point 0:05:49.996 --> 0:05:52.316 was standing across the street watching the scene in front 0:05:52.356 --> 0:05:56.116 of me, and I remember thinking that was gonna be 0:05:56.116 --> 0:05:57.596 what I was gonna do with the rest of my life. 0:05:57.956 --> 0:06:01.316 And at that time, there was no term called gay activist, 0:06:01.876 --> 0:06:03.236 so I didn't know what the hell I was going 0:06:03.276 --> 0:06:04.676 to be. I just knew that's what I was going 0:06:04.756 --> 0:06:06.956 to do, and I also thought i'd be poor for 0:06:06.996 --> 0:06:09.756 the rest of my life because getting paid to be 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:13.556 a professional gay activist. If there was no salary attached 0:06:13.636 --> 0:06:16.556 to it, but it was my passion, then it's my 0:06:16.596 --> 0:06:20.836 passion now. Mark Seagull went on to become the founder 0:06:20.836 --> 0:06:23.756 and publisher of the Philadelphia Gay News and the president 0:06:23.796 --> 0:06:27.956 of the National Gay Newspaper Guild. Another person whose life 0:06:27.996 --> 0:06:31.956 was deeply affected by Stonewall is Joan Nessel. Joan is 0:06:31.996 --> 0:06:35.876 a truly fascinating person. Born in nineteen forty, she protested 0:06:35.876 --> 0:06:38.716 against the activities of the House An American Affairs Committee. 0:06:38.996 --> 0:06:42.276 She became an activist, ultimately joining a wide range of 0:06:42.356 --> 0:06:45.836 lesbian and gay rights groups. She became a writer, a professor. 0:06:46.116 --> 0:06:48.956 She founded the Lesbian and Herstory Archives, and she has 0:06:48.996 --> 0:06:52.196 continued to teach and think about questions of liberation and 0:06:52.276 --> 0:06:55.556 the erotics of desire from the time of Stonewall very 0:06:55.636 --> 0:06:58.596 much up to the present. She joined us all the 0:06:58.636 --> 0:07:06.636 way from Australia. Hello, Hi, Joan, Hi, It's Noah Feldman. 0:07:06.676 --> 0:07:10.636 How are you okay? It's an early dark morning here 0:07:10.676 --> 0:07:14.956 in Melvern, Australia. So I hope I have a flow 0:07:14.996 --> 0:07:18.076 of words. I'm sure you will. Thank you so much 0:07:18.076 --> 0:07:20.796 for joining us. One of the reasons that we wanted 0:07:20.836 --> 0:07:23.516 to have this conversation with you is that we're all 0:07:23.516 --> 0:07:27.156 looking back fifty years later on the Stone Wall uprising 0:07:27.556 --> 0:07:31.676 and trying to understand its context. It's meaning what it 0:07:31.676 --> 0:07:33.596 meant to the people who were there in it. And 0:07:33.636 --> 0:07:36.236 I wonder if you would start by helping us to 0:07:36.316 --> 0:07:40.356 just set the stage for Greenwich Village in the late 0:07:40.436 --> 0:07:44.796 nineteen sixties. As a lesbian person making your way there, 0:07:44.836 --> 0:07:47.276 what was it like for you? Let me start ten 0:07:47.396 --> 0:07:51.516 years earlier, because all these beginnings have befos. When I 0:07:51.596 --> 0:07:55.916 was seventeen, I was just a desiring young woman looking 0:07:56.436 --> 0:08:01.796 for the lesbian touch, and that's what drove me to 0:08:01.956 --> 0:08:05.156 follow women who look like lesbians. We're talking nineteen fifty eight, 0:08:05.396 --> 0:08:08.356 so in Greenwich Village, right down the streets to see 0:08:09.236 --> 0:08:11.996 where they were going. It was this whole underworld that 0:08:12.036 --> 0:08:14.036 I was desperate to be a part of. And you 0:08:14.076 --> 0:08:15.556 were from the Bronx. So how did you know to 0:08:15.596 --> 0:08:19.516 go down to Greenite Village. Davian cultures have a way 0:08:19.516 --> 0:08:24.516 of finding who needs them, and the village was it 0:08:24.596 --> 0:08:26.676 seems to me. As soon as I knew there was 0:08:26.716 --> 0:08:29.116 another place outside of the Bronx, was known as a 0:08:29.196 --> 0:08:32.396 place for queer people. And that I want to say 0:08:32.436 --> 0:08:34.836 that it was a very real word. That two words 0:08:34.916 --> 0:08:39.156 freak and queer, which is what end in my head 0:08:39.196 --> 0:08:43.836 as I entered this world. So I walked into a place. 0:08:44.476 --> 0:08:47.956 There was a place called the Sea Colony and it 0:08:48.036 --> 0:08:50.756 became part of me for ten years. So yeah, the 0:08:50.796 --> 0:08:53.796 Sea Connie was also in the West Village, just a 0:08:53.836 --> 0:08:57.636 short walk from from where where the stonewall in is. Yes, 0:08:57.916 --> 0:09:01.396 tell us about the Sea Connie. So all our bars 0:09:01.396 --> 0:09:04.196 were policed and we were criminals a minute we entered 0:09:04.236 --> 0:09:08.156 that those doors. So one way there was things called 0:09:08.156 --> 0:09:13.356 the vice Squad, and the vice Squad patrolled queer i'll 0:09:13.436 --> 0:09:16.436 use meeting places. And one way they did it was 0:09:17.636 --> 0:09:21.636 there was a phenomena called the bathroom line. And what 0:09:21.796 --> 0:09:26.756 this was There was a line for all these lesbian 0:09:26.876 --> 0:09:30.636 women drinking a lot of beer, you know, to go 0:09:30.716 --> 0:09:33.356 to the bathroom, as simple as that. But because we 0:09:33.356 --> 0:09:39.396 were considered criminal, our bathroom habits had to be policed, 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:42.556 meaning only one woman at a time was allowed into 0:09:42.596 --> 0:09:45.036 the bathroom and to control that behavior. Now, this is 0:09:45.076 --> 0:09:48.676 all done from the bar owners cooperating with the Vice 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:51.676 squad police. So they could keep the bar open. There 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:55.636 was a butch woman that i've whose job it was 0:09:56.116 --> 0:09:59.916 to give us our allotted amount of toilet paper. And 0:09:59.956 --> 0:10:03.156 why I understand the why the one person why the 0:10:03.196 --> 0:10:06.436 allotment of toilet paper, because that was the way to 0:10:06.516 --> 0:10:10.796 control You couldn't get past her us to inform us 0:10:11.436 --> 0:10:15.876 that our behavior was being watched and being controlled. So 0:10:16.036 --> 0:10:20.076 it became part of our I called it a line act. 0:10:20.156 --> 0:10:23.276 We flirted on that line. We knew it awaited all 0:10:23.316 --> 0:10:26.476 of us. I had a double consciousness on that line, 0:10:26.476 --> 0:10:30.236 and maybe many others did two that this was the 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:33.596 state and the state intruded on us. Is also part 0:10:33.636 --> 0:10:36.836 of the Stonewall time was that we knew and we 0:10:37.316 --> 0:10:39.516 dressed to go to the bar, that we had to 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:42.356 put on three pieces of women's clothing or we could 0:10:42.396 --> 0:10:46.716 be arrested for transvestism. We couldn't. We weren't allowed to dance, 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:52.756 we would be arrested for indecent behavior. So the line 0:10:52.916 --> 0:10:56.396 was part of it. It lived in my mind as 0:10:56.436 --> 0:11:00.196 the powers of the state to control our bodies. So 0:11:00.316 --> 0:11:02.916 part of the Stone Wall story is desire, and that 0:11:03.036 --> 0:11:05.956 often does not get talked about. It's what propelled me 0:11:06.556 --> 0:11:09.356 to take on the state. In those bars, every Saturday night, 0:11:09.796 --> 0:11:12.716 the police, the same cop would come in. We were 0:11:12.716 --> 0:11:16.316 allowed to dance in a small back room. The front 0:11:16.396 --> 0:11:19.196 room was for straight people who wanted to come and 0:11:19.196 --> 0:11:22.596 look at the queers, and they'd sit at tables. But 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:25.156 the back room was where we could dance women together, 0:11:25.516 --> 0:11:27.916 and it had a red light, and that was our 0:11:28.036 --> 0:11:30.196 wanting to sit down and not touch each other because 0:11:30.196 --> 0:11:32.636 the police, the same cop was coming in for his payoffs, 0:11:32.916 --> 0:11:35.396 and he'd come into the back room. He'd look us over. 0:11:35.796 --> 0:11:38.276 He had a wad of bills in his hand, and 0:11:38.916 --> 0:11:42.436 invariably he would pick some butchwoman who was with a 0:11:42.556 --> 0:11:46.556 very attractive fam that would enrage them and humiliate her. 0:11:47.396 --> 0:11:49.796 I witnessed one night when a butcheroman was thrown up 0:11:49.796 --> 0:11:52.796 against the wall of the sea colony outside, and this 0:11:52.876 --> 0:11:55.836 cop made her tack her pinstone to show her that 0:11:56.116 --> 0:12:01.756 she wasn't really a man. You describe a very movingly 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:05.356 the dance of desire and then the constant surveillance of 0:12:05.356 --> 0:12:08.996 the state, And you also spoke very convincingly about the 0:12:09.156 --> 0:12:10.796 thought that this was going to break, that there would 0:12:10.796 --> 0:12:13.796 be resistance. Can you describe to us what it was 0:12:13.836 --> 0:12:15.716 like when you you were outside the Sea Colony, you 0:12:15.836 --> 0:12:18.756 heard that something had happened the day before at Stonewall. 0:12:18.836 --> 0:12:22.836 You you went down to Waverley Place, What did you see? 0:12:22.876 --> 0:12:28.556 What was the scene? Like, Yes, I'm walking from my 0:12:27.356 --> 0:12:32.956 um my tenement apartment apartment from the East Village to 0:12:33.036 --> 0:12:36.236 the West Village to get to my bar the Sea Colony. 0:12:36.356 --> 0:12:39.436 It's warm. I always remember the heat, like the heat 0:12:39.476 --> 0:12:41.956 of the body, but this was the heat of us 0:12:42.836 --> 0:12:49.636 the night. And as we approached um where Stonewall was, 0:12:50.436 --> 0:12:54.156 and it was it's a big thoroughfare, everything changed. It 0:12:54.276 --> 0:12:59.836 was like I've never been in a moment of of 0:12:59.316 --> 0:13:02.996 of conflict, of you know, armed conflict, but that's what 0:13:03.076 --> 0:13:06.836 it seemed like. There were flashing lights, and there were 0:13:07.516 --> 0:13:11.476 um people felt like hundreds of people just running and 0:13:11.596 --> 0:13:17.116 milling around, and there were shouts of resistance, and there 0:13:17.196 --> 0:13:20.236 was energy and there, but there was also fear because 0:13:20.276 --> 0:13:25.236 I wasn't quite sure what was happening. And for a minute, 0:13:25.276 --> 0:13:27.276 I just stood there. I just stood and took it 0:13:27.316 --> 0:13:31.116 all in and I knew something was changing. And what 0:13:31.356 --> 0:13:34.076 I saw in the street that night, the second night 0:13:34.116 --> 0:13:38.916 after Stonewall, was the power of a people's descent the 0:13:39.076 --> 0:13:46.076 refusal to allow their bodies to be policed without respect 0:13:46.156 --> 0:13:51.516 for their being, all their desire. And I keep emphasizing sexuality. 0:13:52.116 --> 0:13:55.156 That was what drove me, as a seventeen year old 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:59.796 into a policed place, knowing that I was I could 0:13:59.996 --> 0:14:02.636 be arrested any minute for doing a simple thing like 0:14:02.796 --> 0:14:08.476 touching another woman. But I wanted to be where my body, 0:14:08.516 --> 0:14:14.516 as any young person, could experience its own erotics. And 0:14:14.916 --> 0:14:20.596 so that was a public face of a humiliated erotics. 0:14:20.676 --> 0:14:22.716 I would say that was in the street that night. 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:25.796 And then also it was also the courage of those 0:14:25.876 --> 0:14:30.476 who had the least doing the most. And this is 0:14:30.476 --> 0:14:33.316 what struck me in my own boss because my bar 0:14:33.716 --> 0:14:36.036 was a working class bar, and I say it became 0:14:36.036 --> 0:14:38.916 our community. We go there every weekend, so we knew everybody, 0:14:38.916 --> 0:14:42.236 and we probably it was the one place we all met. 0:14:42.316 --> 0:14:45.476 So there were passing women, women who others thought were men, 0:14:45.516 --> 0:14:48.996 who worked as taxi drivers, worked at stock clerks who 0:14:48.996 --> 0:14:52.556 did the things at men usually kinds of jobs. There 0:14:52.596 --> 0:14:59.916 were sex workers. It was a huge meeting place of pariahs. 0:15:00.236 --> 0:15:01.996 Is the word, and that is the word that has 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:07.196 been haunting me both. You know, I'm a working class 0:15:07.276 --> 0:15:11.556 girl who lived on ideas and Hannah Arrant's idea of 0:15:11.596 --> 0:15:15.716 the pariet. I think that's part of what's happened at Stonewall. 0:15:15.756 --> 0:15:21.716 It's when the pariats taking everything with pride that made 0:15:21.756 --> 0:15:27.716 them and also what the society has judged, and doing 0:15:27.796 --> 0:15:32.796 something different with that heritage. And there was an exuberance. 0:15:32.956 --> 0:15:37.996 There's an exuberance once without nothing, you make love in 0:15:38.036 --> 0:15:41.036 the face of the state. And do you think that 0:15:41.156 --> 0:15:43.916 do you think that that that mode of resistance that 0:15:43.956 --> 0:15:48.676 you're describing gave a certain strength or a certain beauty, 0:15:48.916 --> 0:15:52.196 or a certain form of resistance that's actually difficult for 0:15:52.396 --> 0:15:57.236 later generations to recapture or to reimagine, because you know, 0:15:57.276 --> 0:16:00.316 for later generations there's of course still a homophobia, they're 0:16:00.356 --> 0:16:03.436 still biased, they're still transphobia. None of those things has disappeared. 0:16:03.836 --> 0:16:07.596 But typically, and certainly in Greenwich Village, but typically elsewhere 0:16:07.636 --> 0:16:10.716 in the United States too, it's less likely that the 0:16:10.796 --> 0:16:14.276 state would be the primary source of surveillance, less likely 0:16:14.316 --> 0:16:17.356 that the state would be the primary source of force 0:16:17.436 --> 0:16:20.396 or violence. So there's been in that degree something some 0:16:20.436 --> 0:16:24.316 things have begun to change significantly. I speak a lot 0:16:24.396 --> 0:16:28.236 with young people and they ask me the same question. 0:16:28.356 --> 0:16:31.116 All they used to and they learned, and they say, oh, 0:16:31.196 --> 0:16:33.076 I wish i'd come out when you did. It was 0:16:33.116 --> 0:16:36.596 so you know, you had to. It was so exciting. 0:16:36.636 --> 0:16:39.596 And I look at them, I say, don't you worry. 0:16:39.676 --> 0:16:45.316 Your times will give you your stonewall. And that is happening. 0:16:46.876 --> 0:16:50.876 My main concern is the rise of the fascistic right. 0:16:52.716 --> 0:16:56.676 These privileges that we're given, all these so called recognitions, 0:16:56.756 --> 0:16:59.996 one can be taken back very quickly, as Trump and 0:17:00.316 --> 0:17:06.836 his ilk unraveled democratic institutions. But look look at the contrast. 0:17:07.196 --> 0:17:10.276 I'm so in ninety fifty, yet I'm in a bar 0:17:10.396 --> 0:17:13.756 where every part of me is policed. But I felt 0:17:13.796 --> 0:17:17.436 so alive. I knew, I knew I wasn't going to 0:17:17.436 --> 0:17:20.716 take that. I knew nothing they could offer me was 0:17:20.836 --> 0:17:27.356 worth the culture we were creating under such dorists. And now, 0:17:27.676 --> 0:17:30.956 in one of the most obscene political moments in American history, 0:17:31.516 --> 0:17:36.036 queer people are being in a way celebrated. New York 0:17:36.316 --> 0:17:40.556 is flowing with queer love, and that's wonderful in some ways. 0:17:40.556 --> 0:17:42.676 And I see how it moves the young people, and 0:17:42.716 --> 0:17:46.916 I see all of that, But the larger context, the 0:17:46.996 --> 0:17:49.796 Force movement the shutting of doors to migrants. This is 0:17:49.836 --> 0:17:53.276 all part of my queer self. Now, the pariah is 0:17:53.356 --> 0:17:57.316 always aware of when the door is shut of who 0:17:57.436 --> 0:18:01.236 becomes the new face of the unwanted. People will say, oh, 0:18:01.276 --> 0:18:03.436 you must be so happy, You must be so happy 0:18:03.716 --> 0:18:05.916 being a gay person. You know you don't have to 0:18:05.916 --> 0:18:08.756 take your allotted amount of toilet pill. First of all, 0:18:08.756 --> 0:18:12.636 there is still many who are metaphorically, and secondly, there 0:18:12.676 --> 0:18:19.396 are new Humanity didn't doesn't end with a queer positioning 0:18:19.436 --> 0:18:23.636 in one time, in one place. Often there are there 0:18:23.636 --> 0:18:26.436 are what I hear are echoes or hints in your 0:18:27.116 --> 0:18:32.116 In your analysis of you spoke of working class consciousness. 0:18:32.156 --> 0:18:36.516 You spoke of identification across groups. And I wondered whether 0:18:36.796 --> 0:18:38.796 at any of these times that we've spoken about you 0:18:38.916 --> 0:18:42.756 self identified as a socialist or a Marxist store, And 0:18:43.276 --> 0:18:45.596 I wonder how that, how do you think about the 0:18:45.636 --> 0:18:49.996 interaction between that identity and your your other identities. Well, 0:18:50.076 --> 0:18:54.396 they're all of a piece, are past or like a rope. 0:18:54.916 --> 0:19:00.116 But I my beginning point, Well, the women who stood 0:19:00.196 --> 0:19:04.116 beside me, and some were passing women, so they were 0:19:04.596 --> 0:19:09.676 would be part of it, a trance community, some with 0:19:09.756 --> 0:19:14.396 sex workers, and that's always been an important community to me. 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:19.556 It was for them. Everything I did, in a way 0:19:19.756 --> 0:19:24.956 was for them. They touched my young woman's body. They 0:19:24.956 --> 0:19:27.596 were the first who gave me that deep pleasure. And 0:19:27.756 --> 0:19:30.596 but more than that, more than that, they gave me 0:19:31.156 --> 0:19:42.156 a narrative of courage with bruises, with hardship, with economic deprivation. 0:19:44.156 --> 0:19:49.996 But they tried so fullheartedly to create a life for themselves. 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:53.476 So I feel honored. I feel honored, and I feel 0:19:53.516 --> 0:19:56.676 honored to know the young people now who are trying 0:19:56.716 --> 0:20:01.236 to do the same in Trump America. Joan, thank you 0:20:01.956 --> 0:20:05.836 so much for taking us to the Sea Colony and 0:20:06.116 --> 0:20:10.756 to Stonewall, and to the entire world of people for 0:20:10.836 --> 0:20:14.796 whom you've worked and in whose honor you've described what 0:20:15.156 --> 0:20:18.396 you've been doing. Thank you. It's an extraordinary honor for 0:20:18.436 --> 0:20:20.276 me to have the chance to talk to you, and 0:20:20.316 --> 0:20:22.516 I'm so grateful to you for sharing your stories with us. 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:27.156 Oh I'm just sitting here pishing, But that's okay too. 0:20:28.556 --> 0:20:32.076 That's a good part of life as well. You've you've 0:20:32.116 --> 0:20:49.516 earned that. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's 0:20:49.516 --> 0:20:52.676 a privilege and fascinating to hear from people like Joan 0:20:52.756 --> 0:20:56.516 Nessel and Mark Siegel, who both lived in such an 0:20:56.516 --> 0:21:00.396 immediate and powerful way a series of crucial historical moments 0:21:01.196 --> 0:21:05.116 a whole long, complicated period of historical evolution. It's made 0:21:05.116 --> 0:21:08.516 me reflect on a lot of things. Among other things, 0:21:08.516 --> 0:21:11.516 it makes me reflect on my extraordinary and lucky privilege 0:21:11.636 --> 0:21:14.436 as a straight, white CIS gender man with his own 0:21:14.476 --> 0:21:17.716 podcast embarrassingly enough, who gets to talk to people who 0:21:17.756 --> 0:21:21.476 are fascinating, to people who have confronted real fundamental challenges, 0:21:21.756 --> 0:21:24.756 the Begger, the imagination when they compare to anything that 0:21:24.796 --> 0:21:28.476 I've encountered in my life. It also makes me think 0:21:28.716 --> 0:21:31.356 going forward about how we should think about the legacy 0:21:31.396 --> 0:21:34.316 of civil rights struggles like the gain lesbian rights struggle 0:21:34.316 --> 0:21:37.436 that has followed Stonewall. Should we think of those struggles 0:21:37.436 --> 0:21:40.396 as models of what our society can achieve. Should we 0:21:40.436 --> 0:21:43.356 congratulate ourselves on what we've done and try to use 0:21:43.356 --> 0:21:46.636 that self congratulation to extend new rights to other vulnerable 0:21:46.676 --> 0:21:50.076 people like trans people. Well, that is part of it. 0:21:50.516 --> 0:21:53.436 I think if we don't tell ourselves these stories of success, 0:21:53.796 --> 0:21:57.316 we will give up trying, We will become pessimistic, we 0:21:57.396 --> 0:22:00.516 won't make the effort the next time we need some 0:22:00.596 --> 0:22:03.956 myths of great success in civil rights to take us forward. 0:22:04.716 --> 0:22:07.756 At the same time, the great danger of that kind 0:22:07.796 --> 0:22:11.996 of self satisfied self gratulation, especially from people like me 0:22:12.236 --> 0:22:15.196 who come from privilege, is to say, look, how well 0:22:15.236 --> 0:22:17.996 we've done. We have extended rights to lots of people. 0:22:18.836 --> 0:22:21.156 That has the effect of allowing us to be blind 0:22:21.396 --> 0:22:25.356 to continuing violations of rights, to ongoing forms of discrimination, 0:22:25.716 --> 0:22:29.596 to structural discrimination that comes from the economy, not only 0:22:29.636 --> 0:22:32.916 from the government but also from private sector entities, and 0:22:32.996 --> 0:22:36.756 to forms of exclusion that sometimes just pass by the 0:22:36.756 --> 0:22:40.756 consciousness of people who can get away with that, avoiding 0:22:40.956 --> 0:22:44.276 the consciousness of people who in fact suffer. So we 0:22:44.316 --> 0:22:46.876 need both. We need to pat ourselves on the back 0:22:46.996 --> 0:22:49.436 just a little bit in order to have encouragement for 0:22:49.436 --> 0:22:52.076 the future. But we also need to keep our eyes open. 0:22:52.556 --> 0:22:54.316 We need to make sure that when the next civil 0:22:54.396 --> 0:22:57.956 rights movement begins, as many have, that it doesn't take 0:22:58.036 --> 0:23:00.996 fifty years for us to say, there you go, something 0:23:01.036 --> 0:23:05.156 significant has been accomplished. Deep Background is brought to you 0:23:05.196 --> 0:23:08.836 by Pushkin Industries. Our producer is Lydia Genecott, with engineering 0:23:08.836 --> 0:23:13.196 by Jason Gambrel and Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. 0:23:13.436 --> 0:23:16.556 Our theme music is composed by Luis Gera special thanks 0:23:16.556 --> 0:23:20.156 to the Pushkin Brass, Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg and Mia Lobel. 0:23:20.636 --> 0:23:22.916 I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow me on Twitter at 0:23:22.916 --> 0:23:25.876 Noah R. Feldman. This is deep background