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Speaker 1: What's cracking my peppers. This is Robert Evans bringing away

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Speaker 1: classic introduction to the podcast Behind the Bastards, where we

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Speaker 1: tell you everything you don't know about the worst people

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Speaker 1: in all of history. Now, I've decided to do this

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Speaker 1: blast from the past introduction because this week lads and ladies,

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Speaker 1: them's and fims, him bows and us. But whatever. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: we're doing a classic Behind the Bastards episode. We're getting

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Speaker 1: back to our roots. We're we're doing it, doing it

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Speaker 1: old school style, and we're talking about a Nazi. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Matt Lee our guest for today. Matt, you're a podcaster, uh,

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Speaker 1: the host of the podcast Hood Yourself a Gun, which

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Speaker 1: show the Sopranos, and obviously, Matt as a comedian, you

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Speaker 1: understand that there's nothing more toxic than getting political. But

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you to just kind of riskly

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Speaker 1: delve into those waters and and and and answer me

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Speaker 1: this question. The Nazis are we like are we like warm? Cold? Lukewarm?

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Speaker 1: Where what do you land on the Nazis? Honestly, bro

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Speaker 1: jury is still out on the Nazis. I think people

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Speaker 1: are starting to just like think, like, hey, maybe they

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Speaker 1: had some ideas a lot of people are starting to

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Speaker 1: think that way. Man. They're like, wait, wait, maybe some

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Speaker 1: of that stuff about the Jews Connor Rings true. Um

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Speaker 1: j K, I'm anti ant anti anti Nazis. Maybe Amtley,

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Speaker 1: How would you like to learn about the worst Nazi? Oh? Man,

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Speaker 1: I thought I've Every time I come on, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I've learned about the worst Nazi. And I'm like, well,

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Speaker 1: we're done with the Holly Coast. This is when we

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Speaker 1: talk about the Nazis, and we talked about the Holocaust. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: there's a couple of different categories of worst. There's the

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Speaker 1: guys who are actually like out in the field doing

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Speaker 1: war crimes with our actual bodies against the people's actual bodies.

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Speaker 1: And there's the guys who are like organizing it, doing

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Speaker 1: the paper pushing that made it possible. There's the propagandists

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Speaker 1: who got everyone riled up. I tend to find those

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Speaker 1: latter two categories more interesting, right, because there's always just

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Speaker 1: like thugg thuggish pieces of ship who will hurt people. Um.

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Speaker 1: The guy we're talking about today is kind of both

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Speaker 1: straddles both those lines. And as a spoiler, this is

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Speaker 1: a guy who got written up by the SS for

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Speaker 1: violence during the Siege of Warsaw. That is that is

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Speaker 1: the level of level of Nazi we're talking the s

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Speaker 1: s was like, this guy's making us look bad. This

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Speaker 1: guy is really the Jews right now? Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I hate the Jews, but holy shit, she calms the

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Speaker 1: fun down. Wow. Yeah, we get it. We get it's

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Speaker 1: the Jews are bad. Just we're killing these people. But

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Speaker 1: good lord, I understand you want to do a dollar now,

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Speaker 1: but there's a process. Okay, we're trying to do it

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Speaker 1: step by step. My god, mind, god mind, got Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing like making fun of a German accent. Um.

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Speaker 1: It is good. You never have to ask for permission

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Speaker 1: to know you're officially I think for the next thousand

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Speaker 1: of the thousand years, Uh, everyone can just do a

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Speaker 1: German accent and make fun of them and for their

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Speaker 1: history whenever you disagree with them on some random thing.

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Speaker 1: That is the punishment instead of a thousand year Reich

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Speaker 1: for a thousand years, we all get to be a

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Speaker 1: little racist gets German people. But it's okay, they're going

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Speaker 1: to complain a thousand year accent right where he's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm German. Look at Mr Crimes. Yeah, I like to

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Speaker 1: climes and mountains. I don't like Jews, but I lost

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Speaker 1: the whole war where look at my leader host and

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Speaker 1: in my decision to invade Russia is out vinta cults. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I plan out for his in my hat. Look at me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what. Do they have feathers in their hats?

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Speaker 1: I feel like at some point, yeah, feathers and that

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Speaker 1: idle this flower whatever. Anyway, So we're talking about Oscar

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Speaker 1: Durrell Wanger today. That's his name. Ridiculous name, ridiculous name, um,

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Speaker 1: but also quite possibly the worst personal history of bloodshed

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Speaker 1: that I've heard about a Nazi having. Um. He is

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Speaker 1: a real, a staggering piece of shit, said Oscar Durrell Wanger.

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Speaker 1: Durrell Wanger, ridiculous name. We call him. Oscar is a

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Speaker 1: grouch because he's so grouchy. He's a very grumpy man.

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Speaker 1: He's a he's a thug and and just a gross thug.

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Speaker 1: But he's also an, unlike most of the thugs, a

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Speaker 1: key part of like the organizing machinery of genocide. He

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Speaker 1: didn't just take live's hand to hand. He helped orchestrate

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Speaker 1: mass killings um and and made sort of paula see

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Speaker 1: for Nazi field units doing genocide that was adopted on

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Speaker 1: a pretty wide scale. But before we talk about him,

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Speaker 1: we got to get into one of my favorite topics,

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Speaker 1: Matt Leeb hitlerology. Yes, oh yeah, So a lot of

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Speaker 1: people study Hitler, a lot of a lot of Hitler

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Speaker 1: stands out there. Um, and there's a I'm a big

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Speaker 1: hitler ologistlogist too. Yeah. I've decided that I would not

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Speaker 1: go back in time to kill him. Uh really yeah,

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Speaker 1: because if you think about it by now, like Hitler

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Speaker 1: has got to be a fucking expert at killing time travelers, right,

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Speaker 1: that is a good point, because that's all he does

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Speaker 1: all day. So every time traveler who's gone back in

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Speaker 1: time has died at the hands of Hitler because we

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Speaker 1: still know who he is. Yeah. I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: a trick to get the Jews to accidentally holocaust themselves

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Speaker 1: by like inventing time travel and then dying at the

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Speaker 1: hands of Adolf Hitler. Like he has a here's a

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Speaker 1: little room that they all go to and his actual

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Speaker 1: secret plan. See I had I actually have an idea

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Speaker 1: for a TV show. I shouldn't be sharing this with

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Speaker 1: the open Internet, But scientists go back in time, and

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Speaker 1: they reverse the polarity of Hitler's brain and they make

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Speaker 1: him reverse Hitler. And then after that it's a matchmaking show,

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Speaker 1: and he's just trying to get Jewish couples to get

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Speaker 1: together and have babies to like undo all of his crimes.

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Speaker 1: Like a Hitler yenta, like a Hitler love boat. Yeah, right, exactly,

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Speaker 1: match makeup, make me I love that. Yeah, probably will

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Speaker 1: be the Yeah. Probably shouldn't. Shouldn't say that on the

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Speaker 1: open Internet, but I did so amongst people who are

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Speaker 1: like Hitler nerds, which nobody who does this professionally calls themselves.

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Speaker 1: But I called her that. Um. There's a big debate

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Speaker 1: as to whether or not Hitler was what some academics

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Speaker 1: call a weak dictator. Now, this term, when it gets

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Speaker 1: kind of like translated, particularly academics, is sort of un

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Speaker 1: It gets people kind of interpreted the wrong way when

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Speaker 1: the people who are the academics who are calling him

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Speaker 1: a weak dictator are not arguing that he wasn't influential

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Speaker 1: or central to Nazi crimes. Instead, it's more of a

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Speaker 1: debate about the way in which he exercised influence and

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Speaker 1: the way in which the the actual structural ways in

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Speaker 1: which he contributed to the Holocaust. Right, there's a debate

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Speaker 1: about and and basically, so one side of this they're

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Speaker 1: called intentionalists, and intentionalist historians argue that Hitler was quote

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Speaker 1: master in the Third Reich, essentially a micro manager who

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Speaker 1: exercised tremendous direct control and gave specific orders that are

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Speaker 1: behind many of the regime's crimes. Now, the other side

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Speaker 1: of this debate, they're called generally either structuralists or functionalists, right,

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Speaker 1: and these historians think that the structure of the Nazi

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Speaker 1: Party and the Nazi state actually hamstrung Hitler from exercising

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Speaker 1: direct power, and thus his influence in things like the

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Speaker 1: Holocaust was more a result of his rhetoric and the

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Speaker 1: culture that he helped build and helped have take over

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Speaker 1: Germany rather than actual specific minute orders that he issued. Right. Interesting, Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so like the George W. Bush theory where everyone's right,

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Speaker 1: he's not really were criminal because he's too stupid. It

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Speaker 1: was Cheney who's the real war criminal. And I'm like,

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Speaker 1: why not? Both yeah, And I do want to say

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Speaker 1: most of the people who are making the argument that

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Speaker 1: like he was a weak dictator are not trying to

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Speaker 1: mitigate his crimes. They're just trying to understand specifically, how

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Speaker 1: did the Holocaust occur and how did the Nazi Party

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Speaker 1: do the crimes that it did? Right, was Hitler? Was

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Speaker 1: Hitler sitting there being like and you go killed and

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Speaker 1: you go or was it more that like, well, he

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Speaker 1: he puts these people in power, and he builds this

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Speaker 1: system where all of these guys are kind of competing

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Speaker 1: to be the worst Nazi to rise in this party.

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Speaker 1: And it was that sort of thing, right, So it's

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Speaker 1: not I don't think most of them are not trying

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Speaker 1: to mitigate his crimes. They're more just trying to be

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Speaker 1: specific about And I'm not taking, by the way, a

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Speaker 1: side here as to who is still calling I'm Hitler lovers,

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Speaker 1: So the Hitler lovers Hitler. Yeah, some of these guys

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Speaker 1: are Jewish, so he probably shouldn't. Well, you're trying to

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Speaker 1: some it's complicated because some of them are Holocaust deniers. Um,

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Speaker 1: It's it's messy Hitler. When you when you really get

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Speaker 1: deep into Hitler studies, it gets kind of messy. And

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Speaker 1: part of one of the reasons why there's a debate,

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Speaker 1: Right if you look at a guy like Putin nobody's

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Speaker 1: going to argue that Putin is not a strong dictator

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Speaker 1: and that he exercises direct personal control over what his

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Speaker 1: regime does. Right. We know right now that he's like

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Speaker 1: giving field orders to his commanders in Ukraine directly, which

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Speaker 1: is like that strong dictator stuff, right, and then is

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Speaker 1: certainly something Hitler did from a military standpoint. No one

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Speaker 1: really argues that he wasn't a strong dictator as regards

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Speaker 1: his control of the military machine. In terms of the

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Speaker 1: the architecture of genocide, you know, how do we how

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Speaker 1: do we categorize him? Um? And And part of the

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Speaker 1: reason why there's this debate is that Hitler knew that

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Speaker 1: he was committing a genocide um and was pretty careful

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Speaker 1: about not having ship written down right, Like he he's

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Speaker 1: the stringer Bell of this where he's like the fucking

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Speaker 1: take no, it's yeah, motherfuck, are you taking notes on

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Speaker 1: a cuminal conspiracy? Although there are a lot of notes

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Speaker 1: on his criminal conspiracy, He's just kind of coy about stuff.

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Speaker 1: So there's I just want to say shout out to

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Speaker 1: you for bringing a stringer Bell reference with because we're

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Speaker 1: always looking for it. We're now covering the wire pot

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Speaker 1: yourself the wire is the new show. So if you

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Speaker 1: like Stringer Bell references and you're behind the bastards, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I had to plug. I have a baby coming. I

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Speaker 1: need to plug. So Hitler, I mean, yeah, again, quite

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Speaker 1: careful about There's not like a piece of paper where

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Speaker 1: Hitler says, hey, guys, I want you to start doing

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Speaker 1: death camp ship right, Hey guys, turn Auschwitz into a

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Speaker 1: factory for murder. Right. We don't have like Hitler's signing

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Speaker 1: that piece of paper. Obviously, again the spoilers. He knew

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Speaker 1: about all of it. He was very involved in all

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Speaker 1: of it. But he's not like sitting down and being

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Speaker 1: like and everybody make sure to note that I Hitler

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Speaker 1: told you to do this, because it's a it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty serious crime. He's committing, yes, and he knows it,

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Speaker 1: and and it's it's the funk up thing is it's

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Speaker 1: like the foundation of I think a lot of Holocaust

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Speaker 1: denialism is the fact that they were so secretive about

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Speaker 1: the entire project. So you you know, to this day

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Speaker 1: there are people who are falling for Hitler's fucking bullshit,

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Speaker 1: and and there is there's a whole strain of people

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Speaker 1: who are not quite Holocaust deniers who will say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Holocaust happened and it was bad. They'll also say

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Speaker 1: stuff like it wasn't as bad as the bombing of

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Speaker 1: German cities. There wasn't bad, questions, it was all nonsense.

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Speaker 1: But then they'll be like, but Hitler didn't direct it, right, like,

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Speaker 1: we have no evidence. This was just things like this

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Speaker 1: is these are like things that there's weird Nazis out there, right,

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Speaker 1: it's anyway. So the the actual phrase wicked weak dictator

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Speaker 1: comes from a historian named Hans Momson, who argued alongside

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Speaker 1: other historians that the Fewer was actually a weaker leader

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways than previous German rulers. Right

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Speaker 1: in terms of the way he exercised power. He has

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Speaker 1: less direct power than a guy like the Kaiser did. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's he's no kids, and and what he's saying is

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Speaker 1: that he's not again, Momson, as far as I know,

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Speaker 1: is not trying to deny the Holocaust. What he's saying

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Speaker 1: is that the way the Nazi state was constructed is

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Speaker 1: all of these guys who are basically gangsters come in,

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Speaker 1: they destroy a lot of the existing German bureaucracy and

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Speaker 1: they replace it with the nest of like a this

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Speaker 1: web basically of of conflicting criminal gangs that are all

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Speaker 1: fighting each other and sometimes killing each other, and that

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Speaker 1: makes it hard for Hitler to direct aspects of state

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Speaker 1: personally in a way other autocrats are able to do.

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Speaker 1: This was not done to the military, which is part

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Speaker 1: of why Hitler was able to like exercise so much

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Speaker 1: direct control of the military is a lot of the

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Speaker 1: old structure of the Imperial Military was still in place.

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Speaker 1: Um Now, this line of reasoning is again it's not

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Speaker 1: what Moms is saying is not inherently unreasonable. That said,

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Speaker 1: it's also probably worth noting that it is unsettlingly similar

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Speaker 1: to justifications that German citizens at the time, like during

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Speaker 1: the Third Reich, made for how bad Nazi officials were.

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Speaker 1: Because Hitler by thirty eight is very popular, but the

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Speaker 1: Nazis are bad at governing and a bunch of ship

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Speaker 1: keeps going wrong that they were supposed to have fixed.

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Speaker 1: So there's this attitude among citizens in the right that like,

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Speaker 1: Hitler is great, he doesn't know about how fucked up

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Speaker 1: some of these guys are. Right, he's too trusting, he's

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Speaker 1: too gentle natured. Hitler he would never expect people to

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Speaker 1: do crimes. That's the thing about Hitler is that he

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Speaker 1: was always a very tolerant guy. You know, he's just

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Speaker 1: very nice, very sweet, non confrontational. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: big thing about Hitler, the man who anti fascists with

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Speaker 1: a whip and bar fights. I'm a bit of an introvert.

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Speaker 1: I don't like confrontation, don't like direct conflict. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: just kind of want everyone to be cool and friends. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's yeah again. And this is so part of what's

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Speaker 1: gnarlis that this is an important debate to have if

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Speaker 1: you're trying to understand what happened during the Third Reich,

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Speaker 1: because it's it's not there's nothing wrong with saying well,

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Speaker 1: because of the structure of the Nazi Party and how

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Speaker 1: like criminal and incompetent a lot of these guys were,

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Speaker 1: Hitler was not able to exercise the kind of direct

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Speaker 1: control in domestic policies that some people expected, and as

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Speaker 1: a result, a lot of the early things, a lot

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Speaker 1: of things that were done by the Nazi state were

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Speaker 1: things that were just sort of like done by guys

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Speaker 1: that he trusted to do stuff, and so he wasn't direct,

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Speaker 1: which is not saying he's not ultimately responsible because like

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Speaker 1: if I were to hire someone on the cool Zone

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Speaker 1: media and I were to say, like, you have a

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Speaker 1: fifty thou dollar budget for that can only be spent

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Speaker 1: on bullets, but I'm not going to tell you what

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Speaker 1: to do with them, and then that person goes and

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Speaker 1: commits crimes, I'm responsible to some extent, right, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it'd be weird if you were just like, hey,

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Speaker 1: come join my podcasting company and I'll give you fifty bullets. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: no microphones. Here's a list of people I dislike, Right,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be saying go kill these people, but it

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be my fault, right, Like, yes, um, I think

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Speaker 1: in that case. Again, one of the conflicts here is

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Speaker 1: that a number of people who are proponents of the

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Speaker 1: weak dictator hypothesis are fucking fascists, including a guy named

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Speaker 1: David Irving. Irving was at one point a semi respected

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Speaker 1: scholar of German history. Kurt Vonnegutt quotes him in uh

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Speaker 1: in a slaughter House five because one of the things

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Speaker 1: Irving did is he he would write about how bad

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Speaker 1: the Allied bombing campaigns were, and he seems to have

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Speaker 1: exaggerated the death count substantially, but they weren't pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: So there was a time in which a guy like Vonnegutt,

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Speaker 1: definitely not a Nazi, would be like, oh, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was at Dresden. I know it was bad. I I

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Speaker 1: this guy is saying the numbers are even worse than

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Speaker 1: I knew. That seems credible to me, and so Irving

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Speaker 1: as as at one point semi respected, and then kind

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Speaker 1: of turns into like it now he is a hard

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Speaker 1: core Holocaust and I are right, and I guess he

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Speaker 1: probably was at the time, but it wasn't immediately obvious.

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Speaker 1: So you you do run into people like Vonnegut who

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Speaker 1: like sited Irving fifty something years sixty years ago or

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Speaker 1: whatever before he was a Nazi, and then it kind

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Speaker 1: of comes out and it's kind of tarnished Vonneget a

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Speaker 1: little bit, even though it really shouldn't have. It was

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Speaker 1: not It's not unreasonable for a guy who's sitting in

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Speaker 1: Dressden during the fire bombing to well, that was pretty bad.

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Speaker 1: The problem is, you know, Kurt Vonnegut didn't have um

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Speaker 1: retweet stone equal endorsements on exactly. That would have solved

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Speaker 1: the proud, would have solved the people like no, no,

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Speaker 1: no, no no, no, he's cool. He's just he's not involved

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Speaker 1: with the whole Holocaust and iing thing, but he does

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Speaker 1: think that Dresden was pretty pretty bad bombing. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: as is whenever you've got like a case where someone

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Speaker 1: like me who's not a historian is saying, here's these

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Speaker 1: camps in this like massive historical debate, the reality is

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Speaker 1: near rely always that actual credible experts kind of like

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Speaker 1: wind up more in the middle than anything else. That said,

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Speaker 1: it's probably fair to say that the intentionalist interpretation of

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Speaker 1: things um is more spected among serious academics. And it's

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Speaker 1: like Klaus Hildebrand will sum up that argument by saying

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Speaker 1: that national socialism was basically Hitlerrism, right, And there's a

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Speaker 1: lot to back up the fact that there was nothing

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Speaker 1: to this ideology and there's nothing to this government beyond

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Speaker 1: this kind of central focus on Hitler as a person,

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Speaker 1: just straight and the fact that all resistance pretty much

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Speaker 1: collapses when Hitler shoots himself is not uncompelling evidence that right, like,

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Speaker 1: you can make a strong case here very uh kill

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Speaker 1: the night King, energy and everyone else dissolves. But that said,

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Speaker 1: it's also worth noting that like you know, we're not

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Speaker 1: done with Nazism today, and like a lot of a

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Speaker 1: lot of fascists today are base have based their own

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Speaker 1: ideologies heavily on nationalist socialist principles. Millions of assholes all

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Speaker 1: over the world are drawn to aspects of the political

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Speaker 1: philosophy that animated the Nazis, even if they're not waiving

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Speaker 1: an actual swastika themselves, Um, they're usually they're just wearing

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Speaker 1: a blue Lives Matter. Yeah, that, and you can see

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Speaker 1: that as evidencely like, well, maybe the functionalists have a point, right, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know it was not just hitler Ism, there was

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Speaker 1: something more to it. Now. The story of the man

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Speaker 1: that we're going to discuss today kind of lies at

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Speaker 1: the heart of this debate because Hitler is a factor.

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Speaker 1: And you can say in the same way that when

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Speaker 1: I hire that guy and give him thousands and thousands

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Speaker 1: of bullets, I am responsible for what he does with them.

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Speaker 1: Hitler is responsible to some extent for every murder that

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Speaker 1: this guy is going to commit, but his direct fingerprints

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Speaker 1: aren't really on any of it. Right. Hitler never says, hey, Oscar,

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Speaker 1: I want you to go do some real fucked up ship. Um,

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Speaker 1: but also ready to put in work. Oscar Hitler absolutely

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Speaker 1: said send that guy Oscar out to do the worst

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Speaker 1: things anyone's ever done. Right, He's a real go getter,

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Speaker 1: he's got that entrepreneurial spirit. And this is all. There's

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Speaker 1: a second debate that's kind of broader than the Hitler debate,

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Speaker 1: which is are the physical culprits of the Holocaust willing executioners?

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Speaker 1: Like did the Germans just raise up a narration of

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Speaker 1: real assholes who are willing to do horrible things? Or

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Speaker 1: were they ordinary Germans? And it just turns out that

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Speaker 1: normal people are a pretty malleable when it comes to

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Speaker 1: war crimes. And again, the actual truth here is always

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Speaker 1: going to be from credible people. Well, it's kind of both,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of depends on which group of them

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Speaker 1: you're talking about one period of it, right, Um, anyway,

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Speaker 1: that's all just interesting context, I think for sort of

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Speaker 1: the philosophical debates that are going on behind all of

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Speaker 1: the war crimes were about to talk about, because I

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Speaker 1: don't just want to be like, yeah, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: the twenty minute preface where it's like, we do not

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Speaker 1: say that Hitler wasn't responsible for what we're just saying

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Speaker 1: there were some people who went above and beyond the

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Speaker 1: call of yeah exactly, and and and also just like

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Speaker 1: when you're trying to understand how genocides occur, it's important

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Speaker 1: to understand that it's like structurally, a number of overlapping

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Speaker 1: factors usually come together, right. Um, Anyway, I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk about that. You can read a lot more

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Speaker 1: about this. We'll have sources wherever we put sources, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure at some point. Um, but there's a bunch of

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Speaker 1: there's a bunch of books about people write entire books

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Speaker 1: arguing over this. Um. I am not again trying not

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Speaker 1: to come down on either side because basically, with the

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Speaker 1: exception of that Holocaust, and I are most of the

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Speaker 1: people involved in the debate on both sides no more

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Speaker 1: about this than I do so. Oscar Darrel Wanger was

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Speaker 1: born on September eight in Wurzburg, Swabia, Swabia, which is

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Speaker 1: a ridiculous name for a place in southern Germany because

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Speaker 1: they all came from really just ridiculous sounding places. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they come from fucking Swabia. And then they hear there's

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Speaker 1: a city called crack Ow, which is a dope name

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Speaker 1: from like, well, we gotta fucking take that ship. Warsaw.

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Speaker 1: What a cool name. And we're over here with Stuttgart.

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Speaker 1: Goddamnita is a name for a city, and I gotta

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Speaker 1: be honest. Moscow pretty cool fucking name for a like

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Speaker 1: Stalin grad don't like Stalin pretty dope name like. And

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Speaker 1: one of you guys got see his munichue skin Flagging's

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Speaker 1: just gotten come ons like vomiting towns filled with vomiting.

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Speaker 1: That's why they did it. That's why. Yeah, that's why

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Speaker 1: they're bad. The secret to Hitler's madness is he grew

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Speaker 1: up in a fucking shitty little town with a stupid name.

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Speaker 1: Matt's here for this episode. Well, you know, I just

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Speaker 1: I like to keep it silly when talking Holocaust. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you gotta, you gotta keep it light right, Yeah, fucking

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Speaker 1: brown now I'm in. Was the name of his fucking birthplace?

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Speaker 1: What stupid? Anyway, Um, Matt, you know what's not stupid?

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Speaker 1: What the products and services that support this podcast? Nine?

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Speaker 1: We're back. So we just talked about how Oscar Durrell

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Speaker 1: Wanger born eighteen, his family moves from the stupid named

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Speaker 1: town to a slightly less stupid named town, Stuttgart Germany

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Speaker 1: and nineteen hundred, which is where my mom was born

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Speaker 1: quite a bit laer Um. Yes uh. She told us

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Speaker 1: later later in life, was like, yeah, you actually could

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Speaker 1: have gotten German citizenship, And we were like, what the funk?

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Speaker 1: Why didn't she do? What the hell? I could have

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Speaker 1: to fucking passports? You know what kind of ship I

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Speaker 1: could get up to. I could have had healthcare? Yeah. Um.

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Speaker 1: So he moves to Stuttgart nineteen hundred when he's five,

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Speaker 1: and then to the city of Esslingen in nineteen o

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Speaker 1: five when he's ten. His family are probably you would

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Speaker 1: probably say they're solidly middle class, right uh. Durrell Wanger

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Speaker 1: would later write that his parents were quote neither poor

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Speaker 1: nor wealthy, and describe his father as calm, intelligent, and frugal.

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Speaker 1: He describes their familial relations as peaceful. Now, when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about a guy who does all the horrible things

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Speaker 1: that he does, and this guy is like, like the

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Speaker 1: number of just I don't want to say this like flippantly,

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Speaker 1: but like the number of people that he personally raped

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Speaker 1: could fill like a large town, Like like like, really

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Speaker 1: bad guy. You expect something horrific in his childhood. I

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Speaker 1: think most people do because of probably because of unreason,

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Speaker 1: and it's one of those things we don't have much detail. Right.

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Speaker 1: His youth occurs in the middle of like you know,

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Speaker 1: he he's born in a period where there's not a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of record keeping, where it is not abnormal

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Speaker 1: to hit kids. But he doesn't talk about there being

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Speaker 1: any abuse in his childhood. I think there might be

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Speaker 1: a belief among people that like, well, there probably wasn't.

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Speaker 1: He just didn't see it as as normal. But it's

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Speaker 1: also entirely possible this guy just had a pretty good childhood.

424
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting. Yeah, you really never know. I do

425
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, nowadays, we are always trying to

426
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: understand the cycles of violence, especially sexual violence, and you

427
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: know how that can kind of like, uh be hereditary,

428
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: like generation after generation. You know, one person gets sexually

429
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 1: abused as a child, and then as an adult they

430
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: become a perpetrator. Um. But I'm perfectly willing to believe

431
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: that some people are just ship are born monsters and uh,

432
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: you know, hey, it's then I'm not sure that's what's Well,

433
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 1: we'll talk about this guy's backstory because it's interesting. Um,

434
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: but I did want to look into like, well, how

435
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 1: common is child abuse in like Germany and at the

436
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: class level that he grew up in, because I wanted

437
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: to see, like, is there maybe something more there? And

438
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: it kind of his youth actually occurs in the midst

439
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: of this massive debate across the nation of Germany as

440
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: to whether or not you should hit kids, like this

441
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 1: is an actual serious debate, and it's it's obviously a

442
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 1: good one to have, right if the norm was hitting

443
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: kids for a while, and this is not a German thing, right,

444
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,679
Speaker 1: the norm has always been hitting kids, and most cultures, right,

445
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: most cultures, by by number of people, smack the ship

446
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: out of kids every now and again. Right, So again

447
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: not good. But Germany is actually having a debate and

448
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: we're we are still having this debate, so they're ahead

449
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: of us about like should you do this at all? Now?

450
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: Willhell mind? Germany? Which is you know, Germany, the the

451
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: only Germany that exists prior to the Weimar Republic, because

452
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: it's not an old country, had long embraced a concept

453
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: that had existed in the region for a while called

454
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: jesus Zuktigung sprect, which means to rear by hitting, and

455
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: it was generally interpreted as referring to the use of

456
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: physical compulsion to ensure proper behavior and maintain order. Right now,

457
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 1: this is both like this is how you raise little

458
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 1: kids and also like you're in the military, this is

459
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: how you trained soldiers. Right You're you're on a work

460
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: floor in a factory, like, yeah, guy foxed up, you

461
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 1: hit him, right, Like this is that that's that was

462
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: a pretty common thing. But in the late eighteen hundreds

463
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: and early nineteen hundreds, and it's important to note, Germany

464
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: is like the medical superpower of the world in this

465
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 1: period up like when World War One hits, Germany has

466
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 1: probably the best doctors and the best medical hospitals on

467
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 1: the planet. Germany is where you fucking go if you

468
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: want like a fancy as medical education. They're the best

469
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: at it. So and this includes like psychiatry right obviously,

470
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: like Freud and Ship like they are on the cutting

471
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: edge of this very early, like the kind of what

472
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: will become developmental and child psychology and stuff. And in

473
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds, there's all

474
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: these debates and these like journal argues arguing about these

475
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 1: cases that journalists will write about of child abuse in

476
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: schools of like teachers beating the ship out of students,

477
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: and whether or not this is a good idea. I think.

478
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: There's an article in the Journal for Central European History

479
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 1: by Sace Elder that summarizes a nineteen oh three case

480
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: from Bavaria. Quote, a young male tutor, Andreas Dippold, had

481
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: beaten his young charges so badly that one succumbed to

482
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 1: his mistreatment. So this teacher in nineteen o three, and

483
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: this is when when Oscar is eight beats a student

484
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: to death, and it goes very viral. It enrages the

485
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: entire country, and it seized upon. Part of why it

486
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: pisses people off as there's an activist named Elizabeth Vaughan Ertzon,

487
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: and whenever there's a Vaughn in a German name, it

488
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: means she's a member of the nobility, right, So that's

489
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: part of why she's able to be an activist. She's

490
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: independently wealthy. And Elizabeth bond arts and founds the Society

491
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: for the Protection of Children from Mistreatment and Exploitation, which

492
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: is an organ again nineteen oh three, and um, you know,

493
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: basically goes to war over this, and I'm gonna quote

494
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: again from that same paper the case demonstrated. Von Ertsen

495
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 1: wrote that while torture had been abolished for adults, it

496
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: was still widely practiced on children. One of the chief

497
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: causes of child abuse, according to von Ertson, was the

498
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: claim to so called zuktigung sprect the right to use

499
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: corporal punishment. Because of the defenselessness of children, it has

500
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: become customary to exercise on them the right to use

501
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: corporal punishment, even where it does not exist. She wrote.

502
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: A host of people, including tutors, governesses, and babysitters, claim

503
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: the right, but how far the right to corporal punishment

504
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 1: is transferable is entirely an open question. Curiously, von Urson

505
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: asserted that there was both an objectively existing right to

506
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: use corporal punishment and that there was no consensus on

507
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: where that right lay. Again, she's not saying that you

508
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: should never slap a kid or never spank a kid.

509
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 1: She's saying we're doing it too much, and they used

510
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: to be to a debate about who is allowed to

511
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: do this right um, which is again pretty advanced for

512
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: his it's time. But also she is still saying that, well, yeah,

513
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 1: sometimes you're gonna hit kids, of course everybody occasionally, which,

514
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: again to be clear on the podcast, stance always bad

515
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: and don't this is a good thing, right with it

516
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: within the context of like every adult should be able

517
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 1: to beat the ship out of kids whenever they want,

518
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: a woman being like, hey, that's fucked up. We need

519
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: to have a serious societal conversation about who and when

520
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: it's okay to like smack a kid. That's a that's

521
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: a positive move, it's a step in the right direction.

522
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: We're not We're not having that discussion in the US.

523
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: I don't think I think people are just like, yeah,

524
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: be a kid who gives a ship right there, kids

525
00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: a factory. I'm fine, which I just said earlier, But

526
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: I am fine. No, don't beat your kids, yeah, and

527
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: says Elder writes quote. Many popular and some scholarly depictions

528
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: of German child rearing in the Wilhelmine period assumed that

529
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: methods were particularly harsh and brutal. Yet there is ample

530
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 1: reason to doubt the stereotype of the harsh, brutal parent

531
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 1: more ready to strike a child than embrace it. School

532
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: discipline and other national contexts raises doubts about the extent

533
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: to which German practices were exceptionally violent. Moreover, investigations of

534
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: parenting advice literature have suggested that while their were concerns

535
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: about the inadequacy of soft mothers to adequately raise strong

536
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: manly sons, the mother of the controlled child associated with

537
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: the authoritarian personality and the rise of Nazism and merged

538
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: in the advice literature only during World War One. Advice

539
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: literature remained rather heterogeneous in its prescriptions for the training, correction,

540
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 1: and care of children. As Caroline kay notes, prominent reformers

541
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: such as Ellen kay, Adel Schreiber and Friedrich Wilhelm Forster

542
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: argued strenuously against corporate polished as detrimental to the development

543
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: of the self restrained, self determined individual. This diversity of views,

544
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: and especially the influence of the pedagogical reform movement, suggests

545
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: that normative ideas about the purpose of corporal punishment, the

546
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 1: interests it served, and the source of the legal right

547
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: to use it were highly contested in Wilhelm mind society

548
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: and German legal cultures. So again, really common want to

549
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: look for evidence of brutality in the upbringing of a

550
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: brutal person, and especially to kind of blame the horrors

551
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: of the Nazis on the way kids were raised. But

552
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 1: this guy, it's entirely possible that his parents never hit him.

553
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: Because that was a lot of German families, and a

554
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: lot of German families lined up on the no, this

555
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: is not okay. There was a vigorous debate and a

556
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 1: substantial number of people were like, it's bad to hit kids.

557
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: I'm just like amazed that baby books have been around

558
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: for that long. Yeah, well yeah, I thought that was

559
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: because like I'm I'm mid reading like three baby books

560
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: right now, and I'm like, how can what just anyone

561
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: who has a baby you can write a baby book?

562
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 1: What are we doing here? One is just like if

563
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: they cry, let him cry, And I'm like, this is

564
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 1: get a book deal. Yeah. My suspicion is that, like

565
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: baby books back then started like the ninety day points.

566
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: So it's like, okay, so this one didn't die right through.

567
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: It is old enough to count. Now it's time to

568
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: start thinking about investing resources at it. So you're having

569
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: a life child, you have a living child, rat elections,

570
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: What to expect when you're expecting a baby to live? Yeah,

571
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: the most popular child we ring book in Billhell mind

572
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 1: Germany so this fund didn't diet kicking and screaming hong.

573
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 1: Um so yeah, again, I just wanted to note that

574
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 1: kind of because we don't know much about his childhood,

575
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: it's worth noting he does not report any abuse, and

576
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: he's born into a society that's probably the most proved

577
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: aggressive place, at least in the Western world in terms

578
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: of like the argument that you shouldn't hit kids. Um

579
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: so yeah. Anyway, if we are looking for hit hints

580
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: from his youth, that might have some sort of predictive

581
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: bearing on his future behavior, right, that might like pressage

582
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: some of the crimes he commits. We'd do better to

583
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: cast our eyes up then, towards the town of Words

584
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: words in jeez, we're Sesnia again. This is a Polish town.

585
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: It's part of Poland today, where Sesnia it's w r

586
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: z E s n i A. It's part of Poland today,

587
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: but at this time it's part of Germany. Right, because Germans,

588
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: the Prussians in particular, occupy a big chunk of what

589
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 1: is today Poland in this period, they don't lose it.

590
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: To World War One. The occupiers, like most occupiers, did

591
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: not like the idea of a people they had conquered

592
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: speaking a language that wasn't their's right. So the Germans

593
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: are like, well, we got all these kids, and uh,

594
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a great idea for them to

595
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: learn Polish because we don't really want Polish people in

596
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: Germany right like we were. We want to get rid

597
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: of that, you know. Um. So one day in nineteen

598
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: o two, Johann Schultzen, who's a teacher and a Prussian

599
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: teacher in word Zesnia, decides to take action. And I'm

600
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: gonna quote from a write up in the First News,

601
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 1: a Polish news website. The peoples were crammed into a

602
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: classroom on the first floor, where they were giving a

603
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: final chance to repeat a religious song in German by heart.

604
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: Those who did so were released home. The rest were

605
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: held back to receive the flogging of their lives. Each

606
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: child was individually frog marched to a chamber on the

607
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: ground floor set aside for administering the punishment. The children

608
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: were giving four to eight stinging strokes from a birch cane.

609
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: The boys were flogged on their backsides, the girls on

610
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: their open palms. This was not just an ordinary case

611
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 1: of disciplining children through corporal punishment. Which was common at

612
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: the time. Each furious strike was intended to communicate the message,

613
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: this is Prussia, we are in charge, you polls will

614
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: do as we say. One girl passed out from the pain.

615
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: Others were not able to hold their books in their

616
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 1: swollen hands. So that's pretty bad. Yeah, that I guess.

617
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: I guess it was a necessity to have, you know,

618
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: organizations being like stopped being your kids because there was

619
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: literally flogging rooms the basements of schools. You for sure

620
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,400
Speaker 1: needed people who were like being like, we have to

621
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: stop flogging the children. Perhaps you know what wild idea, guys,

622
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: what if we try to be a no flogging society.

623
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone needs to be flogged. Yes,

624
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: no flog zone. We might we might be able to

625
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: get by, okay without floggings. Yeah, I think we could arrive. Problem.

626
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: So this leads to the adults around them, the adults

627
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 1: in town and stuff, like their parents are like, what

628
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:40,959
Speaker 1: in the fucking Christ are you doing to our kids?

629
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: This is nuts? And again, all of these people probably

630
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: slap their kids, bank their kids, right, that's normal at

631
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: the time. This is like a step beyond that, you know,

632
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,919
Speaker 1: So they engage in a strike that eventually and it's

633
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: it's supported by the adults, but the strike spreads through

634
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: and isn't to some extent organized by children and eventually

635
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: comes to more than fifty thousand Polish children who like kids. Yeah,

636
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: the kids go on strike and like so they will

637
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: all at the same day's refused to answer questions from

638
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: their teachers. Like I think they still go to school,

639
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: but they just won't do anything. They're um and you know,

640
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,439
Speaker 1: there's protests. There's what you might call a riot where

641
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 1: a bunch of the adults start throwing stones at Prussian teachers.

642
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: Because again, the teachers are the occupiers here. These are

643
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: not like people are sympathetic inherently to teachers for good reasons.

644
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: These teachers are Prussians who are like running schools in

645
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: a military fashion and occupied territory. Right, So again, throwing

646
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: rocks at them probably fine. Like I'm just gonna say it,

647
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 1: probably fine. I think in general, throwing rocks at all

648
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: occupiers is what you should do. I'm usually on the

649
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: side of the people throwing rocks at the occupiers. Um. Now,

650
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: German police showed up and they put a bunch of

651
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: striking children on trial, which is when the story blew

652
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: up into an international issue. Uh, and this is this

653
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: there's like massive articles in the New York Times and

654
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 1: like like major international newspapers cover this because again, this

655
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: is a lot of fucking kids and child strike is

656
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: a pretty good story, right, yeah, that's awesome. Um yeah.

657
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: Twenty people are eventually convicted and one parent is sentenced

658
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: to two and a half years in prison. The Germans

659
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: even sentence a photographer to forty days in prison for

660
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 1: distributing photos of people connected to the case. And again,

661
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: this is a massive story. There's no way that Oscar

662
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 1: Darrel Wanger, who's you know, a kid at the time,

663
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 1: would have missed hearing about this, right, Uh, this is

664
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: like a big deal all throughout Imperial Germany. And in fact,

665
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: based on kind of his age, it's a good good

666
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: chance this is one of the first news stories he

667
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: hears about as like a kid, like one of his

668
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: earliest memories might be hearing about this. But I mean,

669
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: but it feels like he is his family, yes, and

670
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: just being against the strike. Well it's because I'm sure

671
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: and again he's an Imperial Germany. He's reading the New

672
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 1: York Times coverage, He's reading like those those ungrateful poems

673
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: are attacking teachers. They threw rocks at teachers trying to

674
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 1: teach them to read German. Right, Like, that's more or

675
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 1: less how it would have come down to him. Um,

676
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: so he makes his way through school, um, obtaining the

677
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 1: German equivalent of like high school degree. It's called a

678
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: baccalaureate in the source I found. But I think this

679
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: is just like a high school degree. None of it,

680
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: none of like schooling in this period maps exactly to

681
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: our our modern ideas. Right. Um, they didn't have common

682
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: core math, or they didn't have common Yeah, they had beatings. Yeah.

683
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 1: Christian Ingrau, who is the author of a book about

684
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,799
Speaker 1: Darrel Langer and his unit, makes a point to note

685
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: that his education quote did not include the humanities. Right,

686
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: so this guy is not being and this is not

687
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 1: actually not super common. For again, Germany is one of

688
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: the centers of learning for the world, center of art,

689
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 1: center of culture. This is like the fact that he

690
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 1: his spe ific education is kind of entirely focused on

691
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: like industry and business and getting him ready to like

692
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: run a factory does not include humanities is kind of noteworthy. Um.

693
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 1: After graduating, he endures further education with the goal of

694
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 1: entering the private sector. Again, he's basically training up to

695
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 1: be like a mid level functionary helping industrial Germany be industrial, right,

696
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:28,319
Speaker 1: trying to be rockets and ships. Yeah, So before he

697
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: can finish any of this, before he can get his

698
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: college degree, uh, he, like all German men, has to

699
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 1: do a year of service for the Kaiser in the military. Right.

700
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 1: This is like there's a universal draft. It's kind of

701
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,399
Speaker 1: like what Ukraine was starting a version of this before

702
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,319
Speaker 1: the war, right, where like everybody goes and they do

703
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: a little bit of time, right. Um. And this is

704
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: so that when the big war comes that everyone knows

705
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: it's going to come, we have a bunch of guys

706
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: we can call up and we don't need to train them, right,

707
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 1: maybe we do a refresher for a week, but they

708
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: know how to hold a gun, they know what in march,

709
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: they know how to do all the things soldiers have

710
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: to do. Um. So a lot of young men waited

711
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 1: for the draft, right because it's it's the kind of

712
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,799
Speaker 1: thing where like eventually your number comes up. So a

713
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: lot of guys try to get in as much of

714
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: their you know, early adulthood as they could before they

715
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: had to do it. Oscar volunteers, he joins on his

716
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,240
Speaker 1: own um. He spends a year marching and training for again.

717
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: Everyone assumes the next war is inevitable. Right. Germany had

718
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: come to existence during a war that started in eighteen

719
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: seventy with France that had lasted less than a year,

720
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: and it was pretty bloody. A lot of people die.

721
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: It's not like a like a nice war. This is

722
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: like where we get Germany. Everyone knows, like, well, we

723
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: got unfinished beef with France. Right, they're going to start

724
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: some ship at some point, right, you know, Germany and

725
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: France or Prussian and France Austrian history. Right, you're not friendly,

726
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're looking at these two guys who

727
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: every fifty years get into a giant fight, and they're like, yeah,

728
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: I bet they're gonna have another one at some point

729
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: right now, because it's been about fifty years the Revolution.

730
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: They got Napoleon, they got another Napoleon, they got a

731
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: king again. Yeah, now they don't have a king because

732
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: that last word didn't go great. So he was probably

733
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: it's probably best to assume that like Oscar was eager

734
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: for that war to start, a lot of German men were,

735
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: and his assumption was that it was going to be

736
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: you get called up along with everybody else. Germany's you know,

737
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 1: field army marches out first and then the reserves come

738
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: in quit behind them. You campaigned for a couple of months,

739
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 1: maybe a year, and there's like a couple of big

740
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: set pace battles, right, that's what they're thing. Not like

741
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: we're gonna be stuck in trenches for years, but like

742
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: three or four real decisive, giant fights that will be ugly,

743
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:36,800
Speaker 1: but then it will be done, and one way or

744
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: the other will happen, right, and that's on either side

745
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 1: of exhaustion. One guy will get stabbed. That was war

746
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: back then, you know. Well it was a little earlier

747
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: than that when the German Scott. But they it was

748
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,919
Speaker 1: not expected to be that bad, right, Yeah, they didn't

749
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 1: know how bad it is. Not like one was like, hey,

750
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 1: this is as fun as I remember. So these machine

751
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: guns really, Raissa, boy, these muskets kill a lot of people.

752
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: So Daryl Wanger is nearing the end of his year

753
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,479
Speaker 1: of service when the Archduke of Austria Hungary gets gets

754
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: got in World War One starts. Christian Ingrow writes, quote

755
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: Oscar Darrel Wanger's war began on August two in a

756
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: machine gun company of the hundred and twenty third Regiment

757
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,279
Speaker 1: of Grenadiers who were heading to France from Oom by

758
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: way of Belgium. In the confusion of general mobilization, troops

759
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: that had already had their basic training were considered as

760
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: part of the Reich's standing army. Thus they were the

761
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: spearhead of the Schliefen Plan, and Darrel Winger was thrust

762
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 1: into the battle at a time when losses were their

763
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: most nightmarish. So in the whole history of human beings

764
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: fighting wars, this is like upper five percent of the

765
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 1: worst things any soldiers in all of time experience, right

766
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: like fucking World War One early days. Ship units get

767
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 1: like literally battalions, thousands of men getting wiped out almost

768
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: to the man um just absolute fucking night air ship.

769
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 1: And I think some additional detail is necessary here to

770
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: really drive home the kind of experience Oscar has, because

771
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out, like what makes him such

772
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: a piece of ship. Maybe he was from the beginning,

773
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: some people just come out that way or whatever, but

774
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 1: he is at this point, comfortable, middle class kid, good

775
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: family peaceful family, as far as he says, goes to

776
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: college on a pretty good life path, and then this happens.

777
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: And in order to kind of contextualize his experience, I'm

778
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: going to read a firsthand account from a British soldier,

779
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: a young officer named Harold McMillan, who later becomes Prime

780
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 1: Minister um and who there's a good chance he's feed

781
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: away from Oscar at points right. There's no way to

782
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: know um. But it's easier, a little easier to find

783
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: British firsthand accounts than German ones of this period, So

784
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: that that's what we're reading. But I think this is

785
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: more or less accurate to the kind of stuff that

786
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: Oscar would have been seeing at this point. Perhaps the

787
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: most extraordinary thing about the modern battlefield is the desolation

788
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: and emptiness of it all. Nothing is to be seen

789
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,720
Speaker 1: of war or soldiers. Only the split and shattered trees

790
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: and the burst of an occasional shell reveal anything of

791
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: the truth. One can look for miles and see no

792
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: human being. But in those miles of country lurk like

793
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 1: moles or rats. It seems thousands, even hundreds of thousands

794
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 1: of men planning against each other, perpetually, some new device

795
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: of death, never showing themselves, they launched at each other

796
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: bullet bomb, aerial torpedo, and shell. And somewhere too are

797
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: the little cylinders of gas, waiting only for the moment

798
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,359
Speaker 1: to spit forth their nauseous and destroying fumes. And yet

799
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: the landscape shows nothing of this, nothing but a few

800
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: shattered trees and three or four thin lines of earth

801
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: and sandbags. These, in the ruins of towns and villages

802
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: are the only signs of war anywhere. The glamor of

803
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: red coats, the martial tunes of fife and drum, the

804
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: aids to camp scurrying hither and thither on, splendid chargers,

805
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: lances glittering, and swords flashing. How different the old wars

806
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: must have been. The thrill of battle comes now only

807
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: once or twice in a year. We need not so

808
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: much the gallantry of our fathers. We need and in

809
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: our army at any rate, I think you will find

810
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: it that indomitable and patient determination like this is, This is,

811
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: this is most of this war is sitting waiting to

812
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: get killed randomly, And then a couple of times a

813
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: year you and all of your friends get mowed down

814
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: by machine guns, right Like, That's what Durrol Wanger's war is.

815
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: Most of it is getting trench foot and being like

816
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna die from this and you know, fucking watching

817
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: watching like unimaginable horror because this is also at a

818
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: time there's not cool movies about crazy sci fi horror ship.

819
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: You know, this is like, this is unimaginable to most

820
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 1: of these people. Yeah, this is like you know there

821
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: there's uh we could tell. Token was pretty adamant that

822
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: his books weren't about anything that had actually happened. But

823
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: like Token fights in a battle where thousands of men

824
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: drowned in the mud get like sucked down by their

825
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: boots and are suffocated while their friends watch. And then

826
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: he like writes the chapter in his book about a

827
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: marsh filled with corpses that you can see right like

828
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: that that's the kind and durl Winger he's right there.

829
00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: He's in the middle of this. His job is he

830
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: is a machine gunner, so he is number one. He

831
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 1: might have killed hundreds of people, like potentially thousands. Some

832
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: of these guys literally individual dudes shoot thousands of people

833
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 1: to death over the course of the war. Um, there's

834
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: no way to know how many people he killed, and

835
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: at some point he would have if he ever was counting,

836
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: would have stopped right um. And probably also basically everyone

837
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 1: he starts the war knowing dies right that, those early

838
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: nineteen fourteen soldiers not a high survival rate. No, No,

839
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 1: there were imagining a war that you know from back

840
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 1: in the day where there was like a drummer kid. Yeah,

841
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: and he is as a machine gunner. Number one, he's valuable.

842
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 1: Number two, he is exposed and isolated. And number three

843
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: he is constantly targeted by artillery and snipers. So this

844
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: is like, this is really bad bad war, bad war experience. Yeah,

845
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma there, I could say, a little

846
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: PTSD problem a little a little bit and maybe a

847
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: little bit of PTSD just a little bit. Yeah, in

848
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: his first three months of combat, he's wounded badly enough

849
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: in his foot that he's sent away from most of

850
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 1: a year to heal. Right, like whatever the injury is,

851
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: it's fucking gnarly. He comes back the next year and

852
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: in September of nineteen fifteen he gets wounded in the

853
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 1: arm by a bayonet. So whatever happens, he is fighting

854
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: hand to hand with people and get stabbed nearly to death. Um.

855
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: And again that's the everyone who fought, and it agrees

856
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,879
Speaker 1: the very worst combat in World War One was hand

857
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: to hand trench combat. Um. Just a fucking nightmare. So

858
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: he gets wounded badly enough. This is a very rare wound.

859
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: Christian in Ground notes that only about one percent of

860
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,760
Speaker 1: injured German soldiers have a similar injury. And that's because

861
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: nearly a hundred percent of men who gets seriously wounded

862
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 1: by a bayonet or a sword in close combat die

863
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 1: because everything is ship and mud around you. It's getting

864
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: jammed into your wound. You're probably going to bleed out

865
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: like you you have better shot at a like per

866
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: injury basis with like a gunshot wound than gett fucking

867
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: stabbed in hand to hand combat. And do they even

868
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: have They didn't have antibiotics back then, right, so they

869
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: don't know. They're kind of starting to figure them out

870
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: in this period. But no, these guys are not getting

871
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: antibiotics administered. UM. So he it is bad enough, he

872
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: can never move his arm right again, and he gets

873
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: raided by the military as fort disabled. Um. He severely

874
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: heard enough that he probably could have ended his service

875
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: there if he had pressed the matter, but he wanted

876
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: to fight, and so in night he stays in the military.

877
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: In September of nineteen sixteen, he gets promoted to be

878
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 1: an n c O and he's moved to be a

879
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 1: machine gun trainer. Right, So he could have stuck at

880
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: this job training people and like not getting in direct combat,

881
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: but he repeatedly demanded to be sent back to the front,

882
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: and in April of nineteen seventeen, he's back in combat,

883
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: despite the fact that his arm and rister permanently injured. Um,

884
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: he serves well. He's particularly good now that he's commanding

885
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 1: small groups of soldiers in combined arms using a mix

886
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,240
Speaker 1: of mortars which you call pocket artillery, so short range artillery,

887
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: machine and maneuvering infantry and like these are a couple

888
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: of hundred people engagements, right, he's very good at that.

889
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: He's very good at. And this is the Germans in

890
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: this period are inventing what we now know is just

891
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 1: like standard combat tactics for small units. Right, all of

892
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: that's being figured out by the Germans. Everyone else is

893
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: a few years behind. And so he is one of

894
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: the first guys to be commanding troops in gunfights in

895
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 1: what we would consider today to be a pretty modern way. Right, Um,

896
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 1: so that's interesting to me. You know what else is

897
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: interesting to me, mad Leab, what the products and services

898
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: that support this podcast, which are also on the cutting

899
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: edge of small unit infantry combat tactics. Boy, if you

900
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: want to learn how to kill a man, Nathan's hot Dogs.

901
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: That's right, Nathan's hot Dogs. Not only do they make

902
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 1: good hot dogs, they'll teach you how to stab somebody.

903
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: And they're good at it. They've done it. They feel nothing.

904
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: Nathan's hot Dogs, I've killed before their slogan, right, that's

905
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 1: their slogan. That's right, have a hot dog. Ah, we're back.

906
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: I hope you all have your hot dogs and you're

907
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:16,439
Speaker 1: ready to down your gullet. See how the sausage gets

908
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: made if the sausage is a war criminal. So Daryl Wanger,

909
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: as an enlisted man, gets promoted to lieutenant, which is

910
00:49:24,680 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: not common in most wars. Right. Enlisted in officers are

911
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: very different and they're different. Like normally, to be an officer,

912
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: you like go to school, you like get a degree.

913
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: You are in the German military. You're generally someone who

914
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 1: comes from a high social status. You get a Vaughan

915
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: in your name. Maybe, Um, pretty rare for a guy

916
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 1: who's just like starts as a private to become a

917
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: lieutenant through combat. And the reason this happens is that

918
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 1: like everybody's dead, and this is a thing that happened

919
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 1: a lot more back in the day. Like my grandpa

920
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: was there for the like very you know, he was

921
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 1: in World War Two as well, but when the Korean

922
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: War started, he was in Korea and he was a

923
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: sergeant and by the time the war ended, he was

924
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: a major. Um, which does not happen often. It's just like,

925
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 1: you know, because everybody's dying, right, Like, that's why this happens. Um,

926
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: he becomes he sent over to the Eastern Front where

927
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: he becomes a company commander, and this is probably saves

928
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: his life because things go really well for Germany in

929
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,799
Speaker 1: the East. Actually they win a war against Russia and

930
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 1: then a war against I think it's Romania. Um, like

931
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: they beat both of them while they're kind of at

932
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 1: this stalemate in the Western Front. We don't know a

933
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: ton of his specific experiences on the aust Front, but

934
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: Christian Ingrow writes, quote, if there were ever a library

935
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: for the ethnic fear of the enemy. During the Great War,

936
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: it was the Eastern Front. Over and over, soldiers letters

937
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: spoke of the dirtiness, the inferiority, the primitive nature of

938
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: the population, and this observation reinforced a social Darwinism and

939
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: an essentialist view of the Eastern populations. Dura Wanger stayed

940
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: in Russia until November nineteen eighteen. Is a company leader

941
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: and lieutenant, so he's probably number one. Comes into this

942
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: pretty racist because most Germans are towards people in this

943
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: region and that probably gets reinforced by being the occupier here, right,

944
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: and when when the war ends and Germany does not win,

945
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: there's all these rebellions, right, all these left wing rebellions

946
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: across the Reich. And also like it's kind of a

947
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,800
Speaker 1: disaster and no one had really expected, particularly in the East.

948
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 1: So you've got all these skeleton units in the East

949
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 1: that like, by the way, your country's government's dissolved and

950
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,720
Speaker 1: you've rusted the war, go turn yourself into whatever people

951
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: are nearby, right like, and a lot of German soldiers

952
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: are like, well know, yeah, I'm not going to do that.

953
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 1: And also I thought we were winning, you know, these

954
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,240
Speaker 1: guys are are all, you know, the great stabbing, the stabbing,

955
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 1: the back theory type of well, yeah, because from there

956
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: we fucking beat these guys to beat the French couldn't

957
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, they got fucking Bolsheviks there because, um So,

958
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 1: Nicholas dura Winger is one of the guy who's like, no,

959
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna turn myself into the fucking Romanian government, right, Like,

960
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do that. So he like grabs a

961
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: bunch of and he makes it clear, like because again

962
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: everything is kind of chaotic, everything's falling apart. He's basically

963
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: just like yells to all of the Germans and earshot like, hey,

964
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: I'm a comedy commander and I'm gonna get everybody out

965
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: of here. Like, if you want to get the funk

966
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: out of here and don't want to wind up in

967
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 1: a prison camp, follow me. Um So, he gets like

968
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: a shipload of people together and he leads them successfully

969
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: home to Germany. One of the men he saved later wrote, quote,

970
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: it is rare for an officer to be honored as

971
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,200
Speaker 1: our comrade. Durrel Winger was this after his successful return,

972
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 1: a return that the soldiers owed to him alone. He

973
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,959
Speaker 1: kept six hundred men from being interned as so many

974
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: were before and after US. So, among other things, Durrell

975
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 1: Winger will always be a guy that like his dudes

976
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 1: fucking love him, and part of it is because like

977
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: he will throw down for them. He's not. He's not

978
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: one of these guys who's like standing in the back

979
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: waiting to see how things happen. He gets injured repeatedly

980
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: because he's he. You have to say this about the

981
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,400
Speaker 1: man not afraid of getting shot. Yeah, he's into it.

982
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: In fact, he's into it. In fact it might be

983
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: a kick. Yeah, it is unsettling, actually so. By the

984
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,760
Speaker 1: terms of the Versailles Treaty, Germany is forbidden from fielding

985
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: an army larger than a hundred thousand men. Given the

986
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,000
Speaker 1: disastrous poverty that hits the country post defeat, these slots

987
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: are pretty coveted by the militarized veterans, right, It's a

988
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: it's a cushy gig. Adolf Hitler is one of the

989
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 1: few lucky events who gets a job post war, and

990
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,080
Speaker 1: Durrel Wanger is another. But while Hitler is used by

991
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: the Reich's fair that's the new German military. They have

992
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 1: him infiltrating, right, wing groups, which is badly Yeah, that

993
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: don't work out so much. But really, maybe the worst

994
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 1: single mistake anyone ever made was being like, hey, Hitler,

995
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: see what those guys are up to. You gotta do

996
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: an episode on that guy, the guy who was like,

997
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: you know you have good spy and yeah, Hitler, guy,

998
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 1: don't keep an eye on these National Socialists for us,

999
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: and whatever you do, don't join them or don't join them,

1000
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 1: don't join them at all. Don't boy, imagine that guy

1001
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: in like nineteen forty five is like every building around

1002
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:17,839
Speaker 1: him is leveled by Allied bombers. Ship that didn't go out. Boy,

1003
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: I don't want to tell anybody what I did. Yeah,

1004
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 1: I have some regrets, Yeah, yeah, I mean a couple

1005
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: of mistakes in the past, one big one. Um. So

1006
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 1: Daryl Wanger also stays on it's not hard to see

1007
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: why right, why he's got He's got like one of

1008
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: the best records anybody has from World War One in

1009
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: terms of like a combat soldier. Um, And so they

1010
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 1: put him to the task of violently suppressing left wing uprisings. UM.

1011
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: He fights a longside and often in units of the

1012
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: Free Corps, and the Free Corps are kind of like

1013
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: they're a little like the Oath Keepers and three per centers,

1014
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: and that they are groups of veterans that have been

1015
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 1: demilitarized who are taking up arms to defend the country

1016
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: quote unquote against socialists. Right. One of the things that

1017
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 1: there's a couple of things that make them very different

1018
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 1: from those groups that we have in the United States,

1019
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 1: even though both try to overthrow the government. One is

1020
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:11,319
Speaker 1: that the Free Corps are all made up of guys

1021
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: who have actually done nightmare things, right, Like, they're not

1022
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: They're not like dudes who like, did four years in

1023
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: Korea and then like lie about their deployment history. For

1024
00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:21,839
Speaker 1: they're like guys who guys who's like friends, teeth got

1025
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: embedded in their skin after their heads were blown apart.

1026
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: These are guys who would you know by tactical sunglasses

1027
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,839
Speaker 1: on TV. These men are dead inside and killing makes

1028
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 1: them feel nothing. The other thing is that these guys

1029
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: are being integrated by the military, right because the military

1030
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: is like, a hundred thousand men is not enough to

1031
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,360
Speaker 1: do anything. So we have these hundreds of thousands of

1032
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: veterans who like, if we throw them a little bit

1033
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: of cash, if we leave the other way, when they

1034
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: acquire guns, we can bring them in and we can

1035
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: use them when we need them to like maintain order

1036
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: and suppress things. Right. So, and this is very illegal

1037
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: under like the terms of the treaty they've signed, but

1038
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: also pretty again nothing gets done for a number of reasons,

1039
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: including the fact that, like a lot of people are like, well,

1040
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,959
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do? Fight him again? So, yeah,

1041
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: he's he's with these guys, he's with these Free Corps units.

1042
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: But he's kind of he's in the Reich's fair and

1043
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: basically his job because he's commanding a unit they whenever

1044
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: there because there's all these communist insurrectionary strikes, right, and

1045
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: he's in his particularly areas, he's in his Wartenberg, and

1046
00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: whenever the communists will like take over part of a

1047
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 1: town or like do it a big strike, he and

1048
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:29,280
Speaker 1: his guys will like drive through town on an armored

1049
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: train and fire machine guns at them. Um. So that's

1050
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: that's his gig now, to be well, nice job, you

1051
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:44,399
Speaker 1: can get it, um now. To be fair. Number one,

1052
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 1: a lot of these communists also veterans, now, decent number

1053
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: of them are guys who didn't fight because they were

1054
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: like making bullets and stuff. Right, because factory workers were

1055
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: are very easy to turn into communists. It turns out, um,

1056
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: but a lot of them are veterans and they're not

1057
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:02,879
Speaker 1: always unarmed. In March of night, communists with guns take

1058
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,720
Speaker 1: over the city of Sangerhausen as part of a broader

1059
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: German uprising. It's this attempt at like a mass uh

1060
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:14,640
Speaker 1: like general strike Comma revolution um. And Max Holes, who

1061
00:57:14,719 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: who commands He's the guy in charge of the of

1062
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: the of the communists, has his Max Holes. H O

1063
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 1: E l z Um Max Holes. I'm gonna put Max

1064
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: Holes in your exactly how many guys, fucking dude, Max

1065
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: Holes must have done this. The guy got shot at thousands.

1066
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: Why do you insist on giving people maximum holes? So

1067
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 1: my name, Max Holes has his men. It pretty sounds

1068
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: pretty cool. They're robbing all of the rich people in

1069
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 1: town to fund this wider uprising. Um. They destroy the

1070
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: telegraph service, which I think is probably to like limit

1071
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: the government's ability to communicate. And then they kidnap all

1072
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: of the wealthiest people in town with an eye towards

1073
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: ransoming them to fund the revolution. But then Darawanger drive

1074
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: through town again. He's got an armored train, his men

1075
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: are generally better trained and definitely better equipped, and they

1076
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: beat the copy They forced the communists out of town.

1077
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: They actually kind of get the worst of the actual combat.

1078
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,080
Speaker 1: Thirteen people die, seven of whom are Durroll Wanger's men,

1079
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,200
Speaker 1: three of whom are insurgents, and three of whom are civilians. Um.

1080
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: Durro Winger uses explosives to level significant parts of the city,

1081
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 1: which is a big part of why Holes and his

1082
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: guy's bounce because they're like, so this guy is just

1083
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: like blowing up all of town in order. We're not

1084
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: really ready for this. Um yeah, this is a strategy

1085
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: I had not considered, and I consider many holes really

1086
00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 1: big hole. I'm not ready for this. Yeah. Um. So

1087
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: Durroll Langer's response the way he obviously he wins, which

1088
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 1: the government's happy with, but also he has blown up

1089
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: a significant portion of the town, which does not endear

1090
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: him to the townspeople, who were like, well, these guys

1091
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: were robbing rich folks, but they didn't blow up downtown.

1092
00:58:58,000 --> 00:58:59,400
Speaker 1: So I don't know, I don't know if I'm like

1093
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: really on ward with either of you. Um yeah. One

1094
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: seems worse significantly. The Weimar government later decides that some

1095
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: of his actions have been extreme, right, he keeps getting

1096
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: like slaps on the wrist and even gets jailed a

1097
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: couple of times. But he's also he's really good at

1098
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 1: putting down insurrections, right, Like he's great at it. So

1099
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 1: they're not going to like actually punish him. Damn that sucks.

1100
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: It's just like ever since those those children's you know,

1101
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: how to strike, He's like, I will make it my

1102
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: life's work to destroy any kind of solidarity between He's

1103
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 1: really just always been defending those teachers who got hit

1104
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: with rocks. Yeah, exactly, you forgot to give us homework.

1105
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 1: That's like his whole thing. He's that kid military is

1106
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: off and on in the military, right, Like he's i

1107
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: think always drawing a salary, but he's like trying to

1108
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: do other stuff. And he just like will regularly to

1109
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: be like, hey, we need you to go shoot people

1110
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,160
Speaker 1: from a train again, and off he'll go to go

1111
00:59:54,160 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: shoot people from a train. And it kind of in

1112
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: between suppressing these uprisings because there's a bunch in this

1113
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: eighteen eighteen one, like a lot of fucking ships going

1114
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: down in Germany, pretty wild history. He gets arrested twice

1115
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 1: and sentenced to prison for two short sentences, both times

1116
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 1: for illegally concealing weapons. Now, we don't have great detail

1117
01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: on this, but it probably because of the way it's written.

1118
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 1: It's probably not that he was carrying a gun concealed illegally,

1119
01:00:20,920 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: but that he was helping paramilitary Fright Corps units steal

1120
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,560
Speaker 1: and concealed machine guns and other like like literally like

1121
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,880
Speaker 1: hiding like burying weapons. Right. Yeah, I was gonna say

1122
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: it is job is is? I guess the train is

1123
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: not inconspicuous. Yeah, they were like, you're allowed to have

1124
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: the gun. Train is fine, it's these other guns and awesome, Yeah,

1125
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:44,400
Speaker 1: you can't be hiding gun. And the reality is like

1126
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,840
Speaker 1: with our government, right, you've got these right wing ship

1127
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 1: head militiamen, and there are cops, and there are soldiers

1128
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,280
Speaker 1: who are on their side, and there are politicians who

1129
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 1: like them. There's also a lot of people in the

1130
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 1: government and the judicial system who are like, no, you

1131
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: can't do that. Here's a slap on the wrist. You know,

1132
01:00:59,240 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: did our job a liberal society? I'm sure that's the

1133
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 1: last we'll hear of Oscar Darrel Wager after he spends

1134
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 1: two months in prison for stealing machine guns from the military,

1135
01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: dusting off his hands, solving the problem forever. So the

1136
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: end of his military career for a little while is

1137
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenty three Munich Beer Hall Putsch Hitler attempts

1138
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: to take over the government. Doesn't go very well, and

1139
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: Oscar is not part of the Nazi Party at this point,

1140
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: but he's in a bunch of different right wing organizations

1141
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 1: that are close to them. And when Hitler does this,

1142
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 1: he attempts to send in the Stuttgart Police's armored vehicles

1143
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,480
Speaker 1: to support Hitler's attempt to take power. This does not

1144
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:44,720
Speaker 1: He he doesn't have the power to do this, right, Like,

1145
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: he's not in charge of them, So this doesn't work out,

1146
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: and he kind of like he gets ship canned for this,

1147
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:52,480
Speaker 1: which is fair, right, I would I would fire somebody

1148
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: for this, Yeah, um, or at least have hr kind

1149
01:01:56,920 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: of like do I don't know, suspend him for should

1150
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 1: do something right, you should do there should be some

1151
01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: sort of process when you attend gun train, for one, Yeah,

1152
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: you don't get to get on that gun train for

1153
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,800
Speaker 1: a whole week scared. So by the time he's kind

1154
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: of out of the military, he is unemployed. It is

1155
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty three. He's twenty nine years old. He has

1156
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,840
Speaker 1: several chronic injuries that trouble him, and he's looking for

1157
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: a gig. Now. While this period, everything we've talked about

1158
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: with him suppressing all these left wing uprisings is going on,

1159
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: Oscar is also going to college. Right, he's basically doing

1160
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 1: his g I bill equivalent shiit uh. He had enrolled

1161
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 1: at a technical university soon after the war, and student

1162
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: culture in Germany during this period super right wing right

1163
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: universities are filled with veterans who had like we're returning

1164
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,440
Speaker 1: from the front. A lot of colleges were basically just

1165
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: recruitment grounds for free corps um. At the same time,

1166
01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: student organizations had been taken by a trend towards the

1167
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: Vulcansh movement. So a lot of like student organizations at

1168
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: different colleges are explicitly Vulkish. And this is the it's

1169
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 1: a German ethno nationalist movement that eventually kind of leads

1170
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: to the Nazi movement. But it's this like, you know,

1171
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 1: there's a German people, it is a specific subset of us,

1172
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: and we're better than everyone, right, Like we could get

1173
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 1: into it in more detail, but it's not really necessary.

1174
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:20,160
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from the S. S. Durrowanger Brigade

1175
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:25,000
Speaker 1: by Christian Ingrau quote. He distinguished himself very early by

1176
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 1: his volkish convictions and expressed them with unusual violence. The

1177
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: university threatened him with disciplinary proceedings for avowed anti Semitic agitation.

1178
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: This fact merely reflects Durrol Wanger's political involvement. Since nineteen nineteen,

1179
01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:39,840
Speaker 1: he had been a member of the deutsch volk Shutsund

1180
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,280
Speaker 1: trust Bund, one of the most virulent organizations in terms

1181
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 1: of both anti Semitic hatred and of revolutionary nationalist feeling.

1182
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 1: It counted in its trust Bund Baby, And again, we

1183
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 1: don't know if he was like super anti Semitic his

1184
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:55,919
Speaker 1: whole life, if there was a thing, because some guys

1185
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 1: pick it up during the war, right like because easy way,

1186
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 1: you know, we we don't really have that kind of context.

1187
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: Could have been something he got at home, could have

1188
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 1: come later. But he's real hardcore racist by this point. Um,

1189
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna continue that quote about the trust Bunda. It

1190
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: counted in its ranks. Future leaders of Nazi repression such

1191
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,040
Speaker 1: as Ryan hard Hydrick and Ryan hard Horn there's our buddy,

1192
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:27,520
Speaker 1: shout out a friend of the pod, Ryan hard Hydrick. Yeah.

1193
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 1: Oh man, I love getting all the all the boys

1194
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 1: back to Yeah, the gang's really coming together here. Yeah.

1195
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 1: This is like the Avengers of but they're all yeah, yea, yeah,

1196
01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 1: it's it's the Avengers if the Hulk was looked like

1197
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 1: the Hulk, but like more like well, actually, Edward Norton

1198
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: played the Hulk too, so yeah, actually, yeah, there's a

1199
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 1: there's a way to work this. You figure it out

1200
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 1: for yourselves, you know, the incredible Yeah, there we go.

1201
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,720
Speaker 1: Um yeah. Dr Winger belonged to an beula of parties

1202
01:05:00,760 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 1: and associations linked by the feeling that Germany was an

1203
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 1: imminent danger of disappearing, diminished as it was by territorial losses,

1204
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 1: the rulings of the Treaty of Versailles, and internal and

1205
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 1: external enemies who, despite the peace treaty, had not disarmed.

1206
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: So Darrel Winger's scholastic career was not interrupted either by

1207
01:05:18,080 --> 01:05:21,360
Speaker 1: his arrests or by his disciplinary proceedings for racism. Because

1208
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:23,360
Speaker 1: he gets in trouble with the school for being racist.

1209
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 1: He eventually moves to Frankfurt, where he finishes his education

1210
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: and winds up with a pH d in political science.

1211
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,280
Speaker 1: He is a doctor. He has doctor Oscar Darrell Wanger

1212
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 1: is doctor of a startling number of the worst Nazis

1213
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 1: were doctors and lawyers of some sort of. It's a

1214
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 1: great scene in the movie Conspiracy where like one of

1215
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:47,520
Speaker 1: I think it's Umdlo Globoschnik, but one of like the

1216
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 1: Nazis planning the fucking Holocaust because they're having an argument

1217
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: over like legal matters. Is like, raise your hand if

1218
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 1: you're a lawyer, and all of the guys at the

1219
01:05:54,920 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 1: table race there because yeah, they're all fucking yeah, um,

1220
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: some of them are literally doctors of law actually, so yeah,

1221
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 1: he gets his PhD and he becomes an accountant and

1222
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 1: for the next several years he has a successful, if

1223
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 1: boring career in business. Now his his overt political involvement

1224
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 1: in right wing stuff fades after the putch because for

1225
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: a while, like the Hitler movements illegal, you know, there's

1226
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 1: there is a bit of a crackdown, um, And if

1227
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 1: Hitler's movement had died out, he might have just wound

1228
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 1: up as like a low key racist businessman, like that's possible,

1229
01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: But the Nazis don't go away. The band against their

1230
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: activism fades and eventually ends, and in the late nineteen twenties,

1231
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: Dura Wanger gets back into it being involved with the Essay. Right,

1232
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 1: he can't do much in the streets because from nine

1233
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 1: to nineteen thirty one he's made the executive director of

1234
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: a textile factory owned by a Jewish family. But he

1235
01:06:48,320 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 1: embezzls a shipload of money from this Jewish factory and

1236
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 1: he gives it to the Essay so they can buy weapons.

1237
01:06:54,040 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah great, Um so he's he's funneling shipped

1238
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 1: to the Essay until nineteen thirty two when he can

1239
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 1: like rejoin publicly because it's safe. Um so, I do

1240
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:13,439
Speaker 1: love The part of me is just like it would

1241
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: be dope to be that Jewish family who owns the

1242
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:21,439
Speaker 1: fucking textile meal and watching this little anti Semitic piece

1243
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: of ship not be able to say anything, just the

1244
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: it would have been. It would have been cool if

1245
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 1: like that's how things had ended. Yeah yeah, no, right,

1246
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: yeah yeah yeah, the rest of the bad. But you know,

1247
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:36,360
Speaker 1: for a second, there it's time. There's some fun moments.

1248
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 1: Probably so Darrow Winger's loyalty and the enthusiastic support of

1249
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 1: guys he'd led into battle who had become Nazis meant

1250
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 1: that once he's publicly in the essay again, he gets

1251
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 1: promoted very quickly. By nineteen thirty three, he's been given

1252
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 1: a cushy job as director of the hell Brawn Employment Agency.

1253
01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:55,480
Speaker 1: The economy was once again in the shipter Right. Things

1254
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: aren't going great for the German economy, and the fact

1255
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: that they can hand out jobs is critical to the

1256
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: new Nazi regime. It's part of how they're like consolidating power.

1257
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 1: So the fact that Oscar is running an employment agency

1258
01:08:05,840 --> 01:08:08,520
Speaker 1: for the Nazis means that he's in a really trusted

1259
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 1: and important position. Right. He's doling out money, essentially to

1260
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: people who are supporting the regime, and he's able to

1261
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 1: because he can hand out cushy gigs. Probably is making

1262
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: a good amount of money via bribes, you have to assume. Um.

1263
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 1: So his position is solid enough that he's able to

1264
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 1: fight off embezzlement allegations from his former employer, which are

1265
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 1: definitely true. Um. He gets arrested. So he's arrested twice

1266
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 1: because he gets drunk and does drugs and crashes his

1267
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:38,400
Speaker 1: car into people. Um. But all that all that goes away. Yeah,

1268
01:08:38,400 --> 01:08:41,480
Speaker 1: he's a he has a hardcore drug addict, probably cocaine.

1269
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:43,960
Speaker 1: People usually aren't specific when they talk about it, but

1270
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,400
Speaker 1: that would be my guess, although maybe a few things. Um,

1271
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:52,439
Speaker 1: but I like it because it's white powder ZVI tist

1272
01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: of drugs. So he's doing great. He's he's handing out jobs,

1273
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:00,960
Speaker 1: he's crashing his car while wasted. Um. If life is

1274
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: going well for Dr Oscar Darrel Wanger. But then on

1275
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 1: July twenty two, nineteen thirty four, tragedy strikes Matt because

1276
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:11,679
Speaker 1: he gets caught having sex with a fourteen year old girl.

1277
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 1: Um yeah, oh yeah, um, oh yes, I thought you

1278
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:23,960
Speaker 1: meant tragedy strikes for him. It is a tragedy um too.

1279
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: But like yeah, no, I was not referring to him.

1280
01:09:26,160 --> 01:09:28,760
Speaker 1: So he had met her while she she was she's

1281
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 1: a volunteer for the Red Cross that he meets in

1282
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 1: his official duties. Um. He will argue when he goes

1283
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 1: to court that she just lied about her age. She

1284
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 1: claims she was violently raped and the medical examination suggests

1285
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: violent rape. So I can tell you whose account I trust,

1286
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 1: and it's not the Nazi. Um. Now this is a

1287
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 1: problem for his Nazi employers. Right, they don't. They're not

1288
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,480
Speaker 1: like cool with this. Right. Again, these guys are Nazis,

1289
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:00,559
Speaker 1: but most of them have been normal p most of

1290
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,080
Speaker 1: their lives. And when you hear that this guy who

1291
01:10:03,120 --> 01:10:07,439
Speaker 1: you're like involved with, rapes a child, they're like, well, no,

1292
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 1: we don't want you to be in our organization for

1293
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:12,640
Speaker 1: a while. Yeah, people might think it might not like

1294
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:16,120
Speaker 1: the Nazis. Yeah, you know, we want people to like

1295
01:10:16,320 --> 01:10:19,559
Speaker 1: us first. So he gets stripped of his doctoral title,

1296
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 1: he loses his PhD, he gets removed from the essay,

1297
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 1: and he's sent to prison for two years. Um. He

1298
01:10:26,160 --> 01:10:29,040
Speaker 1: also gets hizzled punished for embezzling the money that he'd

1299
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: sent to the essay. So they just kind of throw

1300
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 1: the book at him. I think this, Yeah, they just

1301
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: tacked like, yeah, get him. It might be that this

1302
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: girl was also the daughter of a Nazi who like

1303
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: had some poll right, and so that's that's part of

1304
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:44,920
Speaker 1: Like Again, if he had done this to someone who

1305
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 1: was you know, marginalized by the Nazi state, probably would

1306
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:49,800
Speaker 1: have been a punishment. But he does pick. He picks

1307
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 1: like an Aryan girl. Um, so that's a big part

1308
01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:54,720
Speaker 1: of why he gets in trouble. But he does get

1309
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:57,040
Speaker 1: in trouble. I would say two years is not enough time,

1310
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 1: but it's not nothing. Um. So he gets out of

1311
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:02,760
Speaker 1: is An in nineteen thirties six and he sets to

1312
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 1: work immediately, begging his former bosses for forgiveness. He's like,

1313
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 1: I want my please reinstate my doctorate. I've done all

1314
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 1: this stuff for the movement. Um. He sends so many

1315
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 1: letters directly to Hitler begging for clemency that he gets

1316
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 1: arrested again and sent to a concentration camp. Like they're like,

1317
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 1: you gotta stop bugging Hitler. You know it'll cool you

1318
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:26,360
Speaker 1: all some time. And doctor goddamn letters. Yeah, he gets

1319
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:28,600
Speaker 1: sent to I think it's Doc au for like it

1320
01:11:28,720 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 1: might have been Saxon Housen for sending Hitler too many

1321
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:36,120
Speaker 1: fucking letters, which is I have to say, there aren't

1322
01:11:36,160 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: a lot of silly reasons to get sent to a

1323
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: concentration camp, but that is one. That is the silly reason.

1324
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 1: Silliest there's dying of tid Like, that's ridiculous, that's why

1325
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:53,040
Speaker 1: you're here. What the funk man? What are you waiting for? Um?

1326
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:55,800
Speaker 1: I really want my doctor at back. You see, I

1327
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 1: have this certificate that was it meant a lot too,

1328
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:01,040
Speaker 1: So I couldn't hear you might he fell out what

1329
01:12:01,040 --> 01:12:06,719
Speaker 1: what so? Um, Yeah, he spent some time in a camp.

1330
01:12:06,760 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 1: When he gets out, he is now thirty nine years old. Um,

1331
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: and he is. He kind of doesn't have a whole

1332
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 1: lot of options, right. He can either he can force

1333
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:17,439
Speaker 1: his way back into civilian life and find a job

1334
01:12:17,479 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 1: that will take a convicted child molester, uh and kind

1335
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,479
Speaker 1: of just scraped by on the margins. Or he can

1336
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 1: get ahead again the only way he'd ever known how,

1337
01:12:26,680 --> 01:12:30,320
Speaker 1: by being exactly by being the most violent fascist son

1338
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:33,120
Speaker 1: of a bitch he could be. It just happens that

1339
01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:35,720
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty six is a pretty good year to be

1340
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 1: that guy. So that is the first year of the

1341
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War, which is maybe the best time in

1342
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 1: history to be a German combat veteran with zero morals.

1343
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 1: Um so dura Wanger. He's lost most of his connections

1344
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 1: because of the whole molesting a child thing, but he

1345
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: still has one friend, a guy named Gottlab Burger that

1346
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:57,759
Speaker 1: he had these they had been war buddies, right. Burger

1347
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 1: had risen to a pretty respectable rank within the New

1348
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:02,640
Speaker 1: s S which is again, the SS is pretty new

1349
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:05,439
Speaker 1: organization at this point, and Burger is fairly well placed

1350
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: in it. So Burger puts in a good word for

1351
01:13:07,800 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: his old friend to have Oscar serve with Germany's military

1352
01:13:11,479 --> 01:13:15,240
Speaker 1: expedition in Spain. The Condor legion, right, and I'm gonna

1353
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: quote next from a right up in the fifth field

1354
01:13:17,120 --> 01:13:20,400
Speaker 1: here here he helped train Spanish cruise in tank warfare.

1355
01:13:20,560 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 1: After arriving in Spain in April of nineteen thirty seven,

1356
01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 1: his commander Oberst Ritter von Tooma of the German Army

1357
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,960
Speaker 1: rated his performance in Spain as outstanding. For his superior

1358
01:13:30,000 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 1: service there, darrow Winger received the Spanish Campaign Medal, the

1359
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 1: Spanish Military Service Cross, and the Spanish Cross and Silver.

1360
01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: Oscar darrow Winger returned to Germany from Spain in May

1361
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 1: of nineteen thirty nine, and commenting on his past, durrow

1362
01:13:42,280 --> 01:13:44,719
Speaker 1: Winger said, at this point, even though I did wrong,

1363
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:50,599
Speaker 1: I never committed a crime. I gotta you gotta love

1364
01:13:50,640 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 1: someone who's willing to be accountable. Yeah, it's amazing, Like

1365
01:13:55,439 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 1: what a what a way to refer to molesting a child? Right?

1366
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 1: Show me where in Sevaimo Republic Constitution. It says that

1367
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 1: I can't molest child, so tell me where this is. Basically,

1368
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 1: the deal is that you help us brutally suppress the

1369
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:16,320
Speaker 1: left in this civil war, and we will pretend you

1370
01:14:16,360 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 1: didn't molest that child, right like that. That is literally

1371
01:14:19,400 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 1: the deal that the Nazis make um And this is

1372
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:23,680
Speaker 1: like signed off. I believe Himler is one of the

1373
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:25,840
Speaker 1: people who signs off on it. At a pretty high level.

1374
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 1: This is signed off because what he's done is bad

1375
01:14:28,320 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 1: and he probably this is something we don't have a

1376
01:14:30,160 --> 01:14:32,559
Speaker 1: lot of context on, but probably he also did piss

1377
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: off people who were influential by doing this. So when

1378
01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 1: Dura Wanger returns home, his government is in the final

1379
01:14:38,200 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 1: stages of planning its invasion of Poland. Now this is

1380
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 1: going to be a different sort of conflict than the

1381
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 1: one that the Reich had faced, a mass war, with

1382
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: German troops facing the brunt of enemy engagement, not Spanish

1383
01:14:50,400 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 1: soldiers who were like just dudes. The fear of every

1384
01:14:54,280 --> 01:14:57,280
Speaker 1: general in this kind of a war is rural saboteurs

1385
01:14:57,400 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: or insurgents. Now, the German army has a law long

1386
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:02,640
Speaker 1: and nasty history fighting such men. A lot of the

1387
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,080
Speaker 1: war crimes they commit in World War One are dealing

1388
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:09,719
Speaker 1: with these sabbo tours, um, So they've got experience fighting

1389
01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:12,640
Speaker 1: these guys, but also a lot of their experiences that

1390
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:15,080
Speaker 1: like it's really hard to capture these guys, and the

1391
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:17,960
Speaker 1: things that make normal soldiers good at being normal soldiers

1392
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:21,040
Speaker 1: tend to make them bad at fighting insurgencies, right, like

1393
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:25,680
Speaker 1: not entirely transferable sets of skills. So in order to

1394
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:29,439
Speaker 1: train people to do that, the Nazi high brass and

1395
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: this is decisions being made at like the Hitler level,

1396
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:33,840
Speaker 1: are like, we should probably what if we were to

1397
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:38,720
Speaker 1: make a unit entirely out of criminals, specifically poachers, right,

1398
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:42,920
Speaker 1: guys whose job is to go into the woods, survive

1399
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:47,000
Speaker 1: off the land, hunt and kill things and not get caught. Right,

1400
01:15:47,160 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 1: And that's not a bad line of thinking, right, Like,

1401
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: if you're like, who's gonna be good at hunting down insurgents, well,

1402
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 1: poachers probably actually probably wouldn't be pretty get at that

1403
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:58,200
Speaker 1: job there. Yeah, And then you know, so that the

1404
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:00,080
Speaker 1: idea is we're going to like take men that we

1405
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 1: have in prison for these poaching crimes and we're going

1406
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:06,760
Speaker 1: to turn them into commandos. Now, during his time in Spain,

1407
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 1: Durlanger has redeemed himself in the eyes of the Nazis.

1408
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 1: His convictions get ann oled and he gets his doctorate back.

1409
01:16:12,000 --> 01:16:16,800
Speaker 1: They give him back his PhD um. So yeah, I

1410
01:16:16,920 --> 01:16:25,839
Speaker 1: got my certific. Yes, I'm going to frame it again.

1411
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 1: So as these Nazi leaders turned to the task of

1412
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:31,240
Speaker 1: like finding a guy, who are gonna who's gonna run

1413
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:35,840
Speaker 1: this this criminal unit, naturally they're like, well, this guy

1414
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:39,639
Speaker 1: actually number one, he's fought insurgents for us in Germany.

1415
01:16:39,760 --> 01:16:41,759
Speaker 1: We know he's good at it. He's good at normal

1416
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 1: soldier stuff, and like them, he's a terrible criminal. So yeah, yeah, yeah,

1417
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, he's molested a child, he's got a

1418
01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 1: severe alcohol and drug problem, but like we're sending him

1419
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:55,519
Speaker 1: to Poland where it's fine for him to do all that, right,

1420
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 1: we don't care who he molests in Poland or how

1421
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 1: fucked up he as well, he does it, get him

1422
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 1: over there. So that is how Oscar Darrel Wanger becomes

1423
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:09,000
Speaker 1: the commandant of what will become known to history as

1424
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 1: the Darrell Wanger Brigade. And that's a story we're gonna

1425
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:17,200
Speaker 1: get into in part Do I am I excited about

1426
01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:23,720
Speaker 1: it because this guy's I just I feel that all

1427
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:25,400
Speaker 1: the crimes that you've talked, and there have been a

1428
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:29,760
Speaker 1: lot of, he has committed a significant number, yes, already,

1429
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: And now I'm like, oh, now we're gonna let this

1430
01:17:32,360 --> 01:17:35,840
Speaker 1: fucking Tasmanian double loose. This is uh, it's gonna get

1431
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 1: bad and depressing. Yeah, this guy is already pretty bad, dude,

1432
01:17:39,960 --> 01:17:43,360
Speaker 1: and he's about to get sent to Poland right, Um, yeah,

1433
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:47,639
Speaker 1: I want you in the gun train was in the press, Yeah, yeah,

1434
01:17:48,280 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 1: trade is before he was really that bad. Honestly, the

1435
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 1: wind up was guy had gun training a miss gun

1436
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: train in a second. Before we do that, I feel

1437
01:17:57,560 --> 01:18:00,680
Speaker 1: like the only proper way to end is, Matt, I

1438
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: want you to go to Google, and I want you

1439
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 1: to type in the name Oscar Darrel Winger. I want

1440
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 1: you to see what this motherfucker looks like. So A

1441
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:13,679
Speaker 1: all s K A R D I R L E

1442
01:18:14,040 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 1: W A n G E R oh my good makeup

1443
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 1: cast this guy as an orc in a fucking Lord

1444
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 1: of the Race show, like he looked or a goblin.

1445
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:32,800
Speaker 1: Probably he looks like a monster. Fucking just I mean like,

1446
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:37,720
Speaker 1: we don't like to attack people for who have done

1447
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:41,320
Speaker 1: actual bad things. For their appearance. But this guy looks

1448
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 1: like a monster. Like you see this motherfucker in the

1449
01:18:45,080 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 1: street and you're like, well, this is a bad person.

1450
01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,799
Speaker 1: You could draw this guy just from like just guess,

1451
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 1: and you are correct. This guy is frighteningly evil looking.

1452
01:18:56,560 --> 01:19:02,880
Speaker 1: Um dead eyes, yeah, mainly evil looking is the perfect description.

1453
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 1: What a what a monster? Of course he looks exactly

1454
01:19:08,960 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: like this. It's just he's got just that perfectly skeleton

1455
01:19:13,400 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 1: totally skull face right like, yeah, just a skull and

1456
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:22,559
Speaker 1: receding hairline and just like one of those shitty German

1457
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:25,800
Speaker 1: mustaches where they're like, we're going to make him, but

1458
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: he didn't fully commit to it. So there's a little

1459
01:19:28,120 --> 01:19:30,320
Speaker 1: bit stick and he kind of is a petal stash,

1460
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 1: right like, he's got that going on a little bit. Anyway,

1461
01:19:34,200 --> 01:19:38,879
Speaker 1: he's got the it's originally it's the darling that's the stash.

1462
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,040
Speaker 1: I'm I'm not proud of attacking a man for his

1463
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:45,000
Speaker 1: his his appearance, but take a look at this guy

1464
01:19:45,040 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 1: and tell me we shouldn't be right, Like, just get

1465
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 1: a look at this motherfucker. Just look at him. I

1466
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 1: feel like I understand the you know, the impulse to

1467
01:19:55,240 --> 01:19:59,000
Speaker 1: be like don't fat shame. It's not about but this guy.

1468
01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:01,439
Speaker 1: This guy looks like the life he's led and the

1469
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:06,200
Speaker 1: life he's led running a gun train in between committing rape. Yes, yes,

1470
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 1: exactly anyway, Jeviny, I think you want to plug for us,

1471
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:22,640
Speaker 1: matt Leeb absolutely, Um, So I have um a new podcast,

1472
01:20:23,040 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 1: uh called pod Yourself The Wire. Before we did a

1473
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 1: Sopranos podcast called pod Yourself an now we're doing the

1474
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:33,120
Speaker 1: Wire and it's a great show. And um, I would

1475
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:35,559
Speaker 1: love for y'all to listen to it. And you know,

1476
01:20:35,640 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: if you're like, no, fuck, I don't want to listen, um,

1477
01:20:39,040 --> 01:20:41,680
Speaker 1: just go to the Apple podcast store and give us

1478
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:45,320
Speaker 1: five stars in review anyways and then press play and

1479
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:48,120
Speaker 1: then mute. You don't even have to listen. But if

1480
01:20:48,160 --> 01:20:50,880
Speaker 1: you could just do that five stars in review, get

1481
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,280
Speaker 1: that for us, because I got a fucking baby. I

1482
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:57,719
Speaker 1: got a baby now, dog Well, yeah, in a couple

1483
01:20:57,720 --> 01:21:00,120
Speaker 1: of weeks, matt Leeb has a baby in a up

1484
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 1: a low weeks, So go draw, send us all of

1485
01:21:05,040 --> 01:21:11,479
Speaker 1: your art of matt Leeb's baby as Tony soprano, and

1486
01:21:11,600 --> 01:21:13,960
Speaker 1: if you want to, you know, you can make our

1487
01:21:14,000 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 1: baby look like Jimmy McNulty, Oh yeah, man, oh yeah.

1488
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 1: Especially pose it with like a couple of empty bottles,

1489
01:21:21,720 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 1: like baby size bottles, little Irish wasted Jimmy McNulty, Yeah,

1490
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,479
Speaker 1: have it, you know, taken a ship and going she she,

1491
01:21:32,160 --> 01:21:35,280
Speaker 1: You know that'll be fun. Little Clay Days, Yeah, do

1492
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 1: it as Clay Davis. Get a little omar baby costume

1493
01:21:38,600 --> 01:21:42,439
Speaker 1: with like a double barrelled shotgun and yeah, fucking hell yeah.

1494
01:21:42,600 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 1: You come at my diapers pressing like something like zigg

1495
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:49,320
Speaker 1: Botka somehow I don't know. Do it do all the

1496
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:54,320
Speaker 1: seasons even to which nobody likes. But it is a

1497
01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:59,559
Speaker 1: great season. I like season too. A bunch of polls

1498
01:21:59,680 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 1: give it. That's one of the strengths of the show.

1499
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 1: But now we're veering into your territory. I'm I'm, I've

1500
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 1: staggered into like the German Army is about to do

1501
01:22:09,520 --> 01:22:19,559
Speaker 1: in Poland, staggering into the wire. Yeah, alright over, Bye bye.

1502
01:22:21,160 --> 01:22:23,920
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1503
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:26,840
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1504
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

1505
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,639
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1506
01:22:32,680 --> 01:22:33,440
Speaker 1: your podcasts.