WEBVTT - Why Would I Do That to Jennifer Lopez? | Revisionist History 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:18.596 --> 0:00:20.996 In two thousand and one, Tommy Mottola, then the head 0:00:20.996 --> 0:00:24.276 of Sony Music Entertainment, called murder inks IRV Gotti, who 0:00:24.316 --> 0:00:26.276 at the time was working with the likes of jay Z, 0:00:26.436 --> 0:00:29.356 y Ashanti and DMX. Tommy asked Gotti to do a 0:00:29.396 --> 0:00:33.116 remix of Jennifer Lopez's I'm Real, which became a huge 0:00:33.196 --> 0:00:35.476 radio hit and led to more remixes with j Lo. 0:00:35.996 --> 0:00:37.956 In the world of hip hop and crossover pop in 0:00:37.996 --> 0:00:40.396 the early yachts, IRV Gotti was at the top of 0:00:40.436 --> 0:00:44.956 his game, and then admittedly he messed up big time. 0:00:45.156 --> 0:00:47.716 In the latest season of revision of History, Malcolm Gladwell 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:50.996 is looking at the origins and consequences of mistakes while 0:00:50.996 --> 0:00:53.356 we make them, the context in which we make them, 0:00:53.716 --> 0:00:56.636 and what happens after we make them. Here's the story 0:00:56.636 --> 0:00:58.836 of Gotti's mistake and what it tells us, not about 0:00:58.876 --> 0:01:01.756 the individual who makes a mistake, but the witnesses who 0:01:01.796 --> 0:01:04.556 watch it happen, enjoyed the episode, and find more of 0:01:04.556 --> 0:01:11.036 Revisionist History wherever you get podcasts. 0:01:12.156 --> 0:01:16.116 This guy calls me like seven in the morning, like 0:01:16.316 --> 0:01:17.196 Tommy was South. 0:01:17.996 --> 0:01:20.236 In two thousand and one, the head of Sony Music 0:01:20.356 --> 0:01:24.236 Tommy Mottola called the rap producer IRV Gotti at the 0:01:24.276 --> 0:01:27.196 time God. He worked with jay Z, Ja Rule, Ashanti 0:01:27.316 --> 0:01:30.476 DMX in the hip hop world of the early arts. 0:01:30.636 --> 0:01:31.956 He was at the top of his game. 0:01:32.636 --> 0:01:34.476 He's like, yo, I need you to make a record, 0:01:35.396 --> 0:01:37.036 And I said what he said, make a record with 0:01:37.116 --> 0:01:39.676 j Lo and put jaw on it and make it 0:01:39.716 --> 0:01:45.396 a duet. And I say, yo, I need total creative 0:01:45.396 --> 0:01:48.676 at TIMMS, I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Tommy 0:01:48.836 --> 0:01:50.876 was like, you could do whatever the fuck you want 0:01:51.236 --> 0:01:53.436 as long as it's a duet with Jo Roul and 0:01:53.636 --> 0:01:53.996 j Loo. 0:01:54.636 --> 0:01:57.156 Mattola wanted Gotti to do a remix if I'm Real, 0:01:57.556 --> 0:02:00.676 a single off Jlo's second album. The first time around 0:02:00.836 --> 0:02:03.556 it had been a generic ballad. Matola thought it could 0:02:03.556 --> 0:02:07.196 be reinvigorated God. He went to work and started to 0:02:07.196 --> 0:02:09.796 make a demo with Ja Rule and Ashanti. 0:02:10.596 --> 0:02:13.196 I said, yo, I got the records. I'm Real. Him 0:02:13.236 --> 0:02:15.956 and his wife Talia come to the crack house, my 0:02:16.036 --> 0:02:19.996 studio and solo and it's funny because the freight elevator 0:02:20.116 --> 0:02:23.916 used to always go out, so him and Talia walked 0:02:23.956 --> 0:02:27.556 up six flights of stairs. He gets upstairs he said, 0:02:27.636 --> 0:02:31.356 this fucking record better be fucking good. So I played 0:02:32.676 --> 0:02:35.196 I play real form. Him and his wife go crazy. 0:02:35.836 --> 0:02:38.116 They're like, oh my god, it was a one listen. 0:02:38.156 --> 0:02:40.756 They listened and it was like, it's the biggest record. 0:02:41.396 --> 0:02:44.236 So he puts me on a private jet. I fly 0:02:44.396 --> 0:02:47.916 to La record the record with j Lo. Next thing 0:02:47.956 --> 0:02:50.556 you know, the record comes out. It's all over the radio. 0:02:50.956 --> 0:02:54.756 I'm talking about maybe a couple of days after we 0:02:54.876 --> 0:03:01.356 recorded it, it's all over the radio. 0:03:09.236 --> 0:03:12.236 A few months later, God, he made another remix from 0:03:12.316 --> 0:03:16.076 Jalo's album Ain't It Funny? The same thing happened. 0:03:16.716 --> 0:03:20.396 You don't even understand. Those records was colossal, not just 0:03:20.436 --> 0:03:23.236 in the States, on the planet Earth. I don't give 0:03:23.236 --> 0:03:26.356 a fuck. If you went to Germany, Australia, Africa, that 0:03:26.436 --> 0:03:29.356 shit was in heavy rotation. Look, those are the two 0:03:29.516 --> 0:03:32.716 biggest records, and for me to do, i'mral and instead 0:03:32.756 --> 0:03:37.156 fuck it and Ain't It Funny? It was like at 0:03:37.156 --> 0:03:40.356 that point in my life, I was like on top 0:03:40.396 --> 0:03:43.876 of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility. It 0:03:43.956 --> 0:03:45.716 was a feeling of I could do whatever the fuck 0:03:45.756 --> 0:03:50.676 I want to portray who I was at that moment. 0:03:50.836 --> 0:03:54.756 That's that's who I was. I'm from the hood. I'm 0:03:54.796 --> 0:03:58.636 making all of this money. I'm producing records for everybody. 0:03:58.796 --> 0:04:01.436 All of them are working and going number one, and 0:04:01.516 --> 0:04:03.916 money's raining from the sky. I could do no wrong. 0:04:06.396 --> 0:04:08.716 It was at this point that IRV God he made 0:04:08.716 --> 0:04:14.116 a mistake. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 0:04:14.156 --> 0:04:19.716 Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This 0:04:19.916 --> 0:04:23.596 is the third episode in our mini series inspired by 0:04:23.636 --> 0:04:27.876 Michael Linton and Josh Steiner's book From Mistakes to Meaning Will. 0:04:27.916 --> 0:04:30.076 The authors sit down with a wide range of people 0:04:30.276 --> 0:04:32.516 and try to make sense of their biggest screw ups. 0:04:33.276 --> 0:04:36.116 One of their interviews was with her of Gotty just 0:04:36.156 --> 0:04:38.516 before God, he had a stroke and died at the 0:04:38.516 --> 0:04:41.996 age of fifty four. I listened to the interview and 0:04:42.076 --> 0:04:45.276 I found his story so moving that I asked Steiner 0:04:45.316 --> 0:04:47.796 and Linton if I could include it in this series, 0:04:48.516 --> 0:04:51.556 because in his story, I think is a really important 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:55.476 lesson not about the person who makes the mistake, but 0:04:55.596 --> 0:04:58.396 about the people around the person who makes the mistake. 0:04:59.276 --> 0:05:00.116 The witnesses. 0:05:04.676 --> 0:05:08.116 Man I grew up, Oh man, I grew up. Let 0:05:08.116 --> 0:05:11.156 me describe how I'm the youngest of eight kids. 0:05:11.516 --> 0:05:14.236 This is Gotty talking to Litten and Steiner about his 0:05:14.356 --> 0:05:18.196 childhood and growing up in Queen's We have no money. 0:05:20.316 --> 0:05:23.276 We live in the home. I sleep in the attic. 0:05:24.196 --> 0:05:27.316 They ever slept in the attic of a house in 0:05:27.316 --> 0:05:28.036 the summertime. 0:05:28.076 --> 0:05:31.836 There's no refuge. It's a hundred change. Yes, you wake 0:05:31.956 --> 0:05:34.276 up every every day, you wake up in a puddle 0:05:34.316 --> 0:05:38.596 of sweat like I had. That was my life. That's 0:05:39.316 --> 0:05:41.916 it was a lot of love. My family, the most 0:05:41.956 --> 0:05:45.876 loving family. But we had nothing. So when you talk 0:05:45.956 --> 0:05:51.596 about the ship, you told me, I'm not I don't 0:05:51.636 --> 0:05:55.356 give a fuck. Yo, I'm getting money. Oh, I'm gonna 0:05:55.516 --> 0:05:58.916 I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna work my ass off 0:05:58.996 --> 0:06:01.076 and get it. I don't give a fuck what comes 0:06:01.076 --> 0:06:01.396 from it. 0:06:02.916 --> 0:06:08.036 He was blunt, reckless, ambitious, and hugely talented. His rise 0:06:08.076 --> 0:06:11.236 in the music world was swim. It was no accident 0:06:11.276 --> 0:06:14.516 than Buttola called Gotti to work with Jennifer Lopez, then 0:06:14.636 --> 0:06:16.636 well on her way to becoming one of the biggest 0:06:16.636 --> 0:06:19.636 celebrities in America, and when the two of them met 0:06:19.676 --> 0:06:23.596 at Gotti's recording studio, Gotti from Queen's Jailah from the 0:06:23.636 --> 0:06:28.636 Bronx to click, just so you know what to expect. 0:06:29.076 --> 0:06:31.636 Were giving you the unfiltered gottie. 0:06:32.716 --> 0:06:36.356 So I had like thirty hood niggas in the studio 0:06:36.916 --> 0:06:41.116 and in walks Jlo, and she was straight Jenny from 0:06:41.156 --> 0:06:43.916 the block. She had on some sweat pants and the 0:06:44.036 --> 0:06:47.596 tank top. And if I tell you, she got in 0:06:47.596 --> 0:06:52.116 that studio and she had every one of my guys 0:06:52.596 --> 0:06:56.756 fall in love with her. She worked and talked to everybody, 0:06:57.076 --> 0:07:00.396 and I was just like, Yo, she's just so dope, 0:07:00.556 --> 0:07:02.596 you know what I'm saying, because she could have been 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:05.596 on some I'm a big star boogie shit, but she 0:07:05.716 --> 0:07:11.916 was a total opposite, the biggest sex symbol, biggest superstar, 0:07:13.076 --> 0:07:16.956 got on some sweatpants, her as was looking fucking phenomenal. 0:07:17.596 --> 0:07:21.876 She worked, She literally worked the whole home. Like when 0:07:21.916 --> 0:07:25.356 she left, every guy was like, Yo, she's dope. 0:07:25.436 --> 0:07:26.356 I think she liked me. 0:07:26.796 --> 0:07:30.116 I'm like, yo, dog, she's she worked us, Yeo. She 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:32.436 she worked for fuck the rule. But I thought it 0:07:32.556 --> 0:07:38.836 was so dope of us and me and her specifically, Yo, 0:07:38.916 --> 0:07:44.276 we hit it off. Benny Medina, her manager, Benny Medina, 0:07:45.956 --> 0:07:49.316 was like HERV, you're gonna be like the Quincy Jones 0:07:49.316 --> 0:07:52.556 to her Michael Jackson, she was like, We're not doing 0:07:52.716 --> 0:07:56.116 nothing musically unless you're involved. 0:07:58.156 --> 0:08:00.996 A year later, Ellen Magazine decided to do a cover 0:08:01.076 --> 0:08:04.116 story on Jennifer Lopez. It was for their Sex and 0:08:04.196 --> 0:08:08.196 Body issue June two thousand and two, headline Big Letters. 0:08:08.716 --> 0:08:14.156 J Loo on fashion, that song and Puffy. Puffy referred 0:08:14.196 --> 0:08:17.956 to Puffy Combs, the infamous rap impresario who she'd just 0:08:17.996 --> 0:08:21.996 broken up with, and that song referred to Ain't it funny? 0:08:22.476 --> 0:08:26.116 Because Gotti's reinterpretation of the song turned it into the 0:08:26.156 --> 0:08:29.956 story of someone coming out of a very problematic relationship. 0:08:30.756 --> 0:08:35.276 The writer asks her, is that song about Puffy? She says, no, 0:08:35.596 --> 0:08:39.636 it's not. Then the reporter calls gotty. Jlo says, ain't 0:08:39.636 --> 0:08:42.796 it funny? Isn't about Puffy? What do you say? And 0:08:42.836 --> 0:08:48.196 Gody says, Oh, it's absolutely about Puffy, and Jlo knows it. 0:08:49.116 --> 0:08:52.756 Here's the exact quote from the l magazine article, which, 0:08:52.836 --> 0:08:55.916 by the way, is nearly impossible to find now. My 0:08:56.036 --> 0:08:58.356 producer had to get someone at the New York Public 0:08:58.436 --> 0:09:01.916 Library to unearth the issue from an off site storage unit. 0:09:02.876 --> 0:09:05.476 I ain't gonna lie. We was thinking of effing with 0:09:05.476 --> 0:09:10.036 Puffy because that's what the world wants to hear. And God, 0:09:10.036 --> 0:09:13.436 he tells the reporter a story about running into Puffy before. 0:09:13.556 --> 0:09:16.276 Ain't it funny came out and playing him the demo? 0:09:16.836 --> 0:09:20.716 He says, you know the four Seasons on Dohaney in La. 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:23.756 I pull up and Puffs out there with his security 0:09:23.756 --> 0:09:26.116 and I say, Puff, come listen to the new record 0:09:26.156 --> 0:09:28.916 I did with your old bitch. So boom, he gets 0:09:28.956 --> 0:09:31.356 in the car. So I'm blasting the record and when 0:09:31.356 --> 0:09:33.756 it gets to the second verse, he jumps out of 0:09:33.756 --> 0:09:39.436 the car, screaming, gotty, you bastard, this is the second verse. Listen, 0:09:40.716 --> 0:09:41.636 you never had. 0:09:41.836 --> 0:09:44.556 This, well, you should have never played the game. 0:09:44.636 --> 0:09:47.716 To play now and that you can lay. 0:09:51.876 --> 0:09:55.956 He calls Jelo's ex boyfriend into his car and says, 0:09:56.636 --> 0:09:58.876 come listen to the new record I just did with 0:09:58.956 --> 0:10:03.276 your old bitch in a very public way. God, he 0:10:03.356 --> 0:10:07.956 was essentially saying Jennifer Lopez wasn't being honest. He called 0:10:07.996 --> 0:10:09.916 her credibility and question. 0:10:10.196 --> 0:10:16.596 When I read it in that magazine, j Lo quote, 0:10:17.476 --> 0:10:21.596 those records are not about Puff, daddy end quote. It was. 0:10:23.316 --> 0:10:27.276 It's the worst mistake I've ever made in my life, 0:10:27.676 --> 0:10:31.476 because I say that to say, because j Lo Benny Medina, 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:36.156 they was friends. They loved me, They love me like 0:10:36.236 --> 0:10:39.716 I was a writer for them and I would do 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:42.556 things for them that probably no one else could do, 0:10:42.676 --> 0:10:48.876 and I would get done for them, and she was 0:10:48.916 --> 0:10:52.076 my friend. Like why the fuck would I say that? 0:10:53.516 --> 0:10:55.076 Why the fuck would I say that? 0:10:55.956 --> 0:10:59.556 But God, he didn't stop there. He kept going right. 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:06.076 So I went on to say other damaging things, like 0:11:06.476 --> 0:11:08.636 how would she know? She didn't write the records. We 0:11:08.796 --> 0:11:11.396 made records and wrote the records. She just did what 0:11:11.436 --> 0:11:14.236 we said, so she don't know who the fuck we 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:18.236 was talking about. And yeah, we was talking about Diddy. 0:11:19.516 --> 0:11:25.076 And then I said some more damage and shit, I 0:11:25.116 --> 0:11:27.156 was like, guys like me, we didn't listen to Jake, 0:11:27.196 --> 0:11:29.956 We don't listen to Jalo's music. I made guys like 0:11:29.996 --> 0:11:32.636 me listening to j Loo's music. I said, before then 0:11:32.716 --> 0:11:38.636 we just hit the mute button and looked at her ass. Yeah. God. 0:11:38.676 --> 0:11:41.276 He reflected on this with Michael Linton and Josh Steiner 0:11:41.316 --> 0:11:43.396 when they spoke Wow. 0:11:43.396 --> 0:11:45.316 And you could pull all this up in the l 0:11:45.436 --> 0:11:52.156 magazine is there. Those are vivid quotes. Those are like 0:11:52.796 --> 0:11:58.316 supreme asshole quotes that wasn't warranted. And when I look back, 0:11:58.636 --> 0:12:05.156 I was like, what did you do to your friend? Yeah? So, 0:12:05.836 --> 0:12:10.356 needless to say, needless to say, ruined my relationship with 0:12:10.596 --> 0:12:16.356 j Lo. I apologized, I sent to Candy and flowers 0:12:16.436 --> 0:12:21.156 and apologized a million times, and I was high, that's 0:12:21.196 --> 0:12:25.116 no excuse, you know what I'm saying. I apologize by 0:12:25.196 --> 0:12:29.796 us and she accepted my apology, but it forever damaged 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:34.596 your relationship, right. You know, superstars like j Loo, they 0:12:34.636 --> 0:12:37.716 have a small circle of people who they could trust. 0:12:37.756 --> 0:12:40.796 And I think I was in there for a second 0:12:41.796 --> 0:12:48.076 and I totally ruined it. Right, So I'm an asshole. 0:12:49.436 --> 0:12:52.916 Well you were in that moment. I'm totally in the 0:12:52.956 --> 0:12:58.436 wrong and I'm a complete idiot. Make sure you say 0:12:58.476 --> 0:13:00.996 that that I said that I'm a complete idiot. She 0:13:01.076 --> 0:13:03.956 didn't warrant that, she didn't warrant nothing that I said. 0:13:04.716 --> 0:13:07.756 She was my friend, And why would I do that 0:13:07.756 --> 0:13:11.876 with the biggest thought and most beautifulst person. Why how 0:13:11.876 --> 0:13:12.996 do I do that with Jala. 0:13:27.196 --> 0:13:29.796 One of the themes we've tried to explore in this series 0:13:30.356 --> 0:13:34.116 is that mistakes have roots. They aren't random events. They 0:13:34.196 --> 0:13:37.636 come from somewhere, They arise out of a context, but 0:13:37.676 --> 0:13:41.276 the context often isn't obvious, not to those around the 0:13:41.316 --> 0:13:45.116 mistake maker, and often not even to the mistake maker themselves. 0:13:46.116 --> 0:13:49.596 In Gody's case, the context was a telephone call had 0:13:49.636 --> 0:13:52.836 been on just before the reporter called. It was with 0:13:52.916 --> 0:13:56.196 a prominent music industry executive. God. He asked that the 0:13:56.276 --> 0:13:58.876 man's name not be used, so we're gonna bleep out 0:13:58.876 --> 0:14:01.196 every mention of his name. All you need to know 0:14:01.636 --> 0:14:04.956 is that the executive is white, and God he was black. 0:14:05.676 --> 0:14:08.196 The two of them had an argument. One of Gody's 0:14:08.276 --> 0:14:10.676 artists had played a part in a hit song and 0:14:10.796 --> 0:14:12.956 was in the music video, but had been left out 0:14:12.956 --> 0:14:15.876 of the radio version, and God he was unhappy about it. 0:14:16.916 --> 0:14:21.636 So I was like, Yo, you're killing my artists. You 0:14:21.716 --> 0:14:25.316 got him on the video, but on radio he's not there. 0:14:25.516 --> 0:14:28.676 It's and then like mixed signals, Why are you hurting me? 0:14:29.516 --> 0:14:33.316 Their argument got heated. The executive said it wasn't his fault, 0:14:33.636 --> 0:14:37.196 the decision was someone else's at his label, a black man. 0:14:37.876 --> 0:14:41.996 He was like, I told that fat nigga not to 0:14:42.356 --> 0:14:45.636 not to put this out. But when he said the 0:14:45.796 --> 0:14:48.796 N word, Oh, that's when I went crazy. 0:14:49.196 --> 0:14:49.476 Wow. 0:14:49.676 --> 0:14:52.956 I said, what the fuck you say? I said, you 0:14:52.996 --> 0:14:57.276 just call Cory Roone and nigga. I said, when this, 0:14:57.436 --> 0:14:59.996 when this nigga see you, I'm gonna fuck you up. 0:15:00.716 --> 0:15:03.716 I said, how about that? And he was like, and 0:15:03.836 --> 0:15:07.156 we argue him, but he said he used the N 0:15:07.196 --> 0:15:09.116 word on some racist shit. He said, I told us 0:15:09.196 --> 0:15:11.876 fat nigga not to put the record out or put 0:15:11.916 --> 0:15:16.356 him on it. Yeah, but when he said nigga, I went, 0:15:17.076 --> 0:15:24.716 that's that's that's the anger. Yep. I'm not a volatile person. 0:15:24.996 --> 0:15:29.356 I'm not a pop off. I would describe myself as 0:15:29.356 --> 0:15:34.876 a cool guy, level headed. But it's something about when 0:15:34.876 --> 0:15:38.796 a white person like uses the word nigga to me. 0:15:39.676 --> 0:15:44.276 Mm hm oh, I'm ready to kill because it's like 0:15:46.116 --> 0:15:48.476 you start thinking of all of the fucked up shit 0:15:48.596 --> 0:15:50.516 that black people have been through when you got the 0:15:50.636 --> 0:15:54.836 audacity to say nigga in front of me. Oh, I'm 0:15:54.836 --> 0:15:57.156 gonna show you a nigga, now you know what I'm saying. 0:15:57.276 --> 0:16:00.076 Like I used to always say, like when people would 0:16:00.116 --> 0:16:03.436 ask me how how would you be able? How did 0:16:03.636 --> 0:16:05.916 how would you think you would be able to operate 0:16:06.356 --> 0:16:11.556 in those times of racism? And I always answer, I 0:16:11.556 --> 0:16:16.996 would die. You know what? I'm saying because I couldn't 0:16:17.036 --> 0:16:20.276 take the racism that would have been bestowed upon me. 0:16:21.756 --> 0:16:23.636 I would have killed me a couple of white people 0:16:24.116 --> 0:16:26.556 and they would have hung me and killed me, and 0:16:26.676 --> 0:16:30.556 my life would be over. I couldn't take them doing 0:16:30.596 --> 0:16:33.596 something to my mother or you know, hanging my father, 0:16:33.716 --> 0:16:35.876 and I'm living life. Nah, you're gonna have to kill 0:16:35.876 --> 0:16:42.356 me too. So these are the thoughts that's in my mind. Yeah, 0:16:42.556 --> 0:16:45.236 have you experienced that before where you had white people 0:16:45.276 --> 0:16:47.356 say things with you. A lot of my white friends 0:16:47.356 --> 0:16:50.036 to say, Yo, that's my nigga. But I'm not mad 0:16:50.076 --> 0:16:50.356 at that. 0:16:51.476 --> 0:16:55.716 Yeah, use it when they say that's my nigga, it's 0:16:55.716 --> 0:16:57.916 in IgG a. 0:16:58.836 --> 0:17:02.276 He said, Yo, I told that fat nigga, that's n 0:17:02.316 --> 0:17:05.236 I G G e R. It's a big, big difference. 0:17:05.876 --> 0:17:09.076 Like I couldn't I couldn't believe that he just used 0:17:09.156 --> 0:17:14.196 the N word to me. That's what made me so volatile. 0:17:15.516 --> 0:17:17.476 And it was so weird. It was like as soon 0:17:17.516 --> 0:17:19.796 as I hung up with the phone rang with L 0:17:21.196 --> 0:17:23.636 it wasn't like a five minute it wasn't even like 0:17:23.676 --> 0:17:29.356 a five minute cool off period. No hung up, man, Yo, 0:17:29.396 --> 0:17:33.916 this is old magazine. Yeah, what the fuck? Y'all want. 0:17:36.396 --> 0:17:38.756 I didn't like saying hello a little different? 0:17:40.756 --> 0:17:42.836 Can I ask, So, what do you think it was 0:17:42.876 --> 0:17:45.196 that made you You think you were just gonna lash 0:17:45.236 --> 0:17:47.196 out at anybody who showed up in that moment? 0:17:48.436 --> 0:17:52.516 Uh yeah, within that five minutes, Yeah, it was going 0:17:52.596 --> 0:17:58.116 to get the exact thing vibe what the fuck you want? Yeah, 0:17:58.676 --> 0:18:00.476 it just what happened. It was the old magazine, not 0:18:00.596 --> 0:18:06.236 one of my boys. Yeah, so I said what the 0:18:06.276 --> 0:18:10.556 fuck you want? And he was like, oh, oh, I see. 0:18:11.476 --> 0:18:15.396 Like as soon as he heard that response, he immediately 0:18:15.436 --> 0:18:17.836 cut to the chase. He said, oh, oh, I'll just 0:18:17.876 --> 0:18:18.516 get right to it. 0:18:19.076 --> 0:18:19.196 Uh. 0:18:19.916 --> 0:18:25.436 You know, Jlo said that the records, I'm really made 0:18:25.436 --> 0:18:32.276 it funny and not about puff daddy ex boyfriend, and 0:18:32.316 --> 0:18:35.476 I was like, what that bitch is lying? 0:18:38.356 --> 0:18:42.196 This was Serve Gotty's mistake. It changed his life. There 0:18:42.196 --> 0:18:44.396 was a version of the next twenty years where he 0:18:44.436 --> 0:18:46.356 could have been a creative partner with one of the 0:18:46.396 --> 0:18:50.876 biggest stars in the world. He had ideas from movies, collaborations. 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:54.716 Jaelo was at once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why 0:18:54.756 --> 0:18:58.636 this was a mistake. It had consequences, but there was 0:18:58.676 --> 0:19:01.596 a point in Gotty's interview with Steiner and Linton that 0:19:01.676 --> 0:19:03.116 I couldn't get out of my mind. 0:19:03.756 --> 0:19:08.276 Listen, how quickly did you realize that you'd made a mistake. 0:19:10.436 --> 0:19:15.076 I didn't realize quickly. I was so angry and mad 0:19:15.116 --> 0:19:17.756 when I got off the phone with that magazine. I 0:19:17.796 --> 0:19:22.076 thought nothing of it. It hit me when they sent 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:25.636 me like the transcripts of what they was gonna plant. 0:19:27.516 --> 0:19:31.916 How long after that was that? A couple a week 0:19:32.036 --> 0:19:35.236 or so? I would say, A right, And when you 0:19:35.676 --> 0:19:38.596 did you realize it right away? Yeah? I was like, 0:19:38.676 --> 0:19:42.676 don't print that. They was like it's too but they 0:19:42.756 --> 0:19:46.276 was like it's too late. Yeah. They loved it. They 0:19:46.356 --> 0:19:50.596 loved it, and they said it was too late, and 0:19:50.756 --> 0:19:52.436 I was trying to get them not to print it, 0:19:52.476 --> 0:19:56.356 but they wasn't. They like, hey, buddy, you said it. 0:19:57.476 --> 0:19:59.596 Yeah, did you get me try to did you get 0:19:59.596 --> 0:20:01.036 me help to try to get them not to do it, 0:20:01.156 --> 0:20:01.556 or did you just. 0:20:01.596 --> 0:20:07.076 Let it go? Let it go? I gave it my effort, 0:20:07.156 --> 0:20:09.076 but after my effort, I just let it. 0:20:09.196 --> 0:20:09.316 Oh. 0:20:10.516 --> 0:20:13.276 He realized he'd made a mistake that, in his anger 0:20:13.316 --> 0:20:15.836 at one person, he had said something he didn't mean 0:20:15.916 --> 0:20:18.796 to another, and when he tried to prevent his mistake 0:20:18.836 --> 0:20:22.716 from having consequences, from turning into a serious mistake. He 0:20:22.876 --> 0:20:26.156 was told, hey, buddy, you said it, it's too late. 0:20:27.596 --> 0:20:30.956 After Linton and Steiner's book came out, I interviewed them 0:20:30.956 --> 0:20:33.716 on stage at the ninety second Street Why in New York, 0:20:34.196 --> 0:20:38.276 and I brought up their chapter on gaudy. So who's 0:20:38.316 --> 0:20:40.556 the villain of the story. 0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:42.276 Not every story has to have a villain. 0:20:42.396 --> 0:20:44.396 No, but tell me who the villain of the stories? 0:20:45.836 --> 0:20:48.116 So don't Michael, don't fall for this like this is okay, 0:20:48.276 --> 0:20:49.796 this look at this is why he's so good. 0:20:50.076 --> 0:20:51.356 But don't fall for his trap. 0:20:51.436 --> 0:20:53.196 Like okay, you can say not everyone. 0:20:53.276 --> 0:20:55.276 I got to keep the conversation going. I would argue 0:20:55.316 --> 0:20:58.596 it was the executive who used the N word, Josh, 0:20:58.676 --> 0:20:59.676 here's a villain of the story. 0:21:00.396 --> 0:21:02.516 Here's what I think that guy acted terribly. There is 0:21:02.556 --> 0:21:03.356 no villain in the story. 0:21:03.436 --> 0:21:06.956 And I think an important piece of what we tried 0:21:07.036 --> 0:21:11.956 to describe is that there isn't always a villain, There 0:21:11.996 --> 0:21:15.716 isn't always some outside danger, there isn't always some consequence 0:21:15.796 --> 0:21:19.356 that has been derived from a villain. That these things 0:21:19.356 --> 0:21:23.596 are deep rooted in ourselves and we're not villainous, and 0:21:23.636 --> 0:21:25.916 so that aspect of our personality doesn't make us bad. 0:21:25.956 --> 0:21:29.676 This isn't a morality test. This is an opportunity to 0:21:29.716 --> 0:21:33.436 explore oneself and come to terms and acceptance of the 0:21:33.436 --> 0:21:36.156 fact that we're flawed, and the way to get hopefully 0:21:36.156 --> 0:21:37.636 healthier and better is to talk about it. 0:21:37.676 --> 0:21:38.556 Who do you think the villain? 0:21:38.596 --> 0:21:38.676 Is? 0:21:39.516 --> 0:21:41.516 A man who has a very close relationship to the 0:21:41.516 --> 0:21:45.116 biggest rock star in the world, a relationship that has 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:49.076 resulted in extraordinary commercial success. Is called by a reporter 0:21:49.196 --> 0:21:52.236 and has asked a question about that relationship, and in 0:21:52.276 --> 0:21:55.036 the course of answering that question, the man says, Oh, 0:21:55.036 --> 0:21:58.156 she's a liar. Who's the villain in the story? Do 0:21:58.236 --> 0:22:03.036 you think it's erv Now it's the reporter, But the 0:22:03.116 --> 0:22:08.356 reporter doesn't No, no, no no. This is a crucial, crucial point, Michael. 0:22:08.956 --> 0:22:14.356 Think this is because it's about when mistakes are made 0:22:14.836 --> 0:22:18.916 and they are as deeply rooted as you suggest they are, 0:22:18.956 --> 0:22:21.236 they're not what's you're The whole argument of the book 0:22:21.276 --> 0:22:23.196 is a mistake can come out in the spur of 0:22:23.236 --> 0:22:25.996 the moment, but it's not something that's coming out of 0:22:26.036 --> 0:22:27.636 the spur of the moment. It's something that has roots. 0:22:28.236 --> 0:22:30.836 And what does that require of those who are observe 0:22:30.956 --> 0:22:34.236 and are part of the process in which the mistake 0:22:34.316 --> 0:22:38.876 is played out. It requires some degree of grace and 0:22:39.036 --> 0:22:45.076 forgiveness and understanding. So the reporter, here's some IRV God, 0:22:45.356 --> 0:22:51.516 IRV God. He say something that is completely out of place. Right, 0:22:51.596 --> 0:22:53.796 it makes the reason the reason that story. So that 0:22:53.876 --> 0:22:57.956 story what you didn't what is important? Detail is here 0:22:58.156 --> 0:23:00.316 is it goes. It's all across the country. It's like 0:23:00.796 --> 0:23:02.876 it's huge. That's why it blows up so much. Everyone 0:23:02.916 --> 0:23:06.876 seizes on this. Her longtime collaborator called j Lo a liar. Right, 0:23:07.556 --> 0:23:11.316 if you are the reporter in that instance, and someone 0:23:11.356 --> 0:23:14.716 says something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, 0:23:15.196 --> 0:23:17.716 why did you say that? And if they can't give 0:23:17.716 --> 0:23:20.876 you a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it. 0:23:21.036 --> 0:23:24.916 I'm sorry, it's not to use it. You're not You shouldn't. 0:23:25.276 --> 0:23:29.156 You can't make someone The reporter turned that from a 0:23:29.236 --> 0:23:33.116 nothing into a destruction of someone's career because they had 0:23:33.356 --> 0:23:37.556 not the slightest concern for his well being or his reputation, 0:23:37.836 --> 0:23:40.916 and they if they had an ounce of self understanding 0:23:41.036 --> 0:23:43.356 or of general understanding. They would have understood that he 0:23:43.396 --> 0:23:46.076 didn't mean to say that. They should at the very 0:23:46.116 --> 0:23:48.996 least have said, did you mean to say that? Right, 0:23:49.396 --> 0:23:54.036 that's your responsibility, and the reporter fail in that fundamental 0:23:54.116 --> 0:23:57.476 Why do people hate the press Because because in an 0:23:57.476 --> 0:23:59.836 interview like this, where we could talk for three hours 0:23:59.836 --> 0:24:01.996 and you say one thing out of place because you 0:24:02.036 --> 0:24:04.036 have to be irritated about something else, and the reporter 0:24:04.116 --> 0:24:06.916 runs with that one thing that's about practice. Why is 0:24:06.956 --> 0:24:10.036 this person getting a pass that's terror? Sorry, I'm really 0:24:10.076 --> 0:24:14.236 upset about this. I was upset about this because you 0:24:14.276 --> 0:24:17.476 can't do this if you're a journalist. The whole profession 0:24:17.556 --> 0:24:20.916 works on an implied contract. Somebody grants you the gift 0:24:20.956 --> 0:24:25.316 of their time and attention and thoughts. They make themselves vulnerable, 0:24:25.836 --> 0:24:29.476 and in return you pledged to respect that vulnerability. You're 0:24:29.516 --> 0:24:32.596 not a stenographer. You've entered, for the duration of the 0:24:32.636 --> 0:24:39.036