1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:18,596 --> 00:00:20,996 Speaker 2: In two thousand and one, Tommy Mottola, then the head 3 00:00:20,996 --> 00:00:24,276 Speaker 2: of Sony Music Entertainment, called murder inks IRV Gotti, who 4 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:26,276 Speaker 2: at the time was working with the likes of jay Z, 5 00:00:26,436 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 2: y Ashanti and DMX. Tommy asked Gotti to do a 6 00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 2: remix of Jennifer Lopez's I'm Real, which became a huge 7 00:00:33,196 --> 00:00:35,476 Speaker 2: radio hit and led to more remixes with j Lo. 8 00:00:35,996 --> 00:00:37,956 Speaker 2: In the world of hip hop and crossover pop in 9 00:00:37,996 --> 00:00:40,396 Speaker 2: the early yachts, IRV Gotti was at the top of 10 00:00:40,436 --> 00:00:44,956 Speaker 2: his game, and then admittedly he messed up big time. 11 00:00:45,156 --> 00:00:47,716 Speaker 2: In the latest season of revision of History, Malcolm Gladwell 12 00:00:47,756 --> 00:00:50,996 Speaker 2: is looking at the origins and consequences of mistakes while 13 00:00:50,996 --> 00:00:53,356 Speaker 2: we make them, the context in which we make them, 14 00:00:53,716 --> 00:00:56,636 Speaker 2: and what happens after we make them. Here's the story 15 00:00:56,636 --> 00:00:58,836 Speaker 2: of Gotti's mistake and what it tells us, not about 16 00:00:58,876 --> 00:01:01,756 Speaker 2: the individual who makes a mistake, but the witnesses who 17 00:01:01,796 --> 00:01:04,556 Speaker 2: watch it happen, enjoyed the episode, and find more of 18 00:01:04,556 --> 00:01:11,036 Speaker 2: Revisionist History wherever you get podcasts. 19 00:01:12,156 --> 00:01:16,116 Speaker 3: This guy calls me like seven in the morning, like 20 00:01:16,316 --> 00:01:17,196 Speaker 3: Tommy was South. 21 00:01:17,996 --> 00:01:20,236 Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, the head of Sony Music 22 00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:24,236 Speaker 1: Tommy Mottola called the rap producer IRV Gotti at the 23 00:01:24,276 --> 00:01:27,196 Speaker 1: time God. He worked with jay Z, Ja Rule, Ashanti 24 00:01:27,316 --> 00:01:30,476 Speaker 1: DMX in the hip hop world of the early arts. 25 00:01:30,636 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 1: He was at the top of his game. 26 00:01:32,636 --> 00:01:34,476 Speaker 3: He's like, yo, I need you to make a record, 27 00:01:35,396 --> 00:01:37,036 Speaker 3: And I said what he said, make a record with 28 00:01:37,116 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 3: j Lo and put jaw on it and make it 29 00:01:39,716 --> 00:01:45,396 Speaker 3: a duet. And I say, yo, I need total creative 30 00:01:45,396 --> 00:01:48,676 Speaker 3: at TIMMS, I'm doing whatever the fuck I want. Tommy 31 00:01:48,836 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 3: was like, you could do whatever the fuck you want 32 00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:53,436 Speaker 3: as long as it's a duet with Jo Roul and 33 00:01:53,636 --> 00:01:53,996 Speaker 3: j Loo. 34 00:01:54,636 --> 00:01:57,156 Speaker 1: Mattola wanted Gotti to do a remix if I'm Real, 35 00:01:57,556 --> 00:02:00,676 Speaker 1: a single off Jlo's second album. The first time around 36 00:02:00,836 --> 00:02:03,556 Speaker 1: it had been a generic ballad. Matola thought it could 37 00:02:03,556 --> 00:02:07,196 Speaker 1: be reinvigorated God. He went to work and started to 38 00:02:07,196 --> 00:02:09,796 Speaker 1: make a demo with Ja Rule and Ashanti. 39 00:02:10,596 --> 00:02:13,196 Speaker 3: I said, yo, I got the records. I'm Real. Him 40 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:15,956 Speaker 3: and his wife Talia come to the crack house, my 41 00:02:16,036 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 3: studio and solo and it's funny because the freight elevator 42 00:02:20,116 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 3: used to always go out, so him and Talia walked 43 00:02:23,956 --> 00:02:27,556 Speaker 3: up six flights of stairs. He gets upstairs he said, 44 00:02:27,636 --> 00:02:31,356 Speaker 3: this fucking record better be fucking good. So I played 45 00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:35,196 Speaker 3: I play real form. Him and his wife go crazy. 46 00:02:35,836 --> 00:02:38,116 Speaker 3: They're like, oh my god, it was a one listen. 47 00:02:38,156 --> 00:02:40,756 Speaker 3: They listened and it was like, it's the biggest record. 48 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:44,236 Speaker 3: So he puts me on a private jet. I fly 49 00:02:44,396 --> 00:02:47,916 Speaker 3: to La record the record with j Lo. Next thing 50 00:02:47,956 --> 00:02:50,556 Speaker 3: you know, the record comes out. It's all over the radio. 51 00:02:50,956 --> 00:02:54,756 Speaker 3: I'm talking about maybe a couple of days after we 52 00:02:54,876 --> 00:03:01,356 Speaker 3: recorded it, it's all over the radio. 53 00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:12,236 Speaker 1: A few months later, God, he made another remix from 54 00:03:12,316 --> 00:03:16,076 Speaker 1: Jalo's album Ain't It Funny? The same thing happened. 55 00:03:16,716 --> 00:03:20,396 Speaker 3: You don't even understand. Those records was colossal, not just 56 00:03:20,436 --> 00:03:23,236 Speaker 3: in the States, on the planet Earth. I don't give 57 00:03:23,236 --> 00:03:26,356 Speaker 3: a fuck. If you went to Germany, Australia, Africa, that 58 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:29,356 Speaker 3: shit was in heavy rotation. Look, those are the two 59 00:03:29,516 --> 00:03:32,716 Speaker 3: biggest records, and for me to do, i'mral and instead 60 00:03:32,756 --> 00:03:37,156 Speaker 3: fuck it and Ain't It Funny? It was like at 61 00:03:37,156 --> 00:03:40,356 Speaker 3: that point in my life, I was like on top 62 00:03:40,396 --> 00:03:43,876 Speaker 3: of the world. It was a feeling of invincibility. It 63 00:03:43,956 --> 00:03:45,716 Speaker 3: was a feeling of I could do whatever the fuck 64 00:03:45,756 --> 00:03:50,676 Speaker 3: I want to portray who I was at that moment. 65 00:03:50,836 --> 00:03:54,756 Speaker 3: That's that's who I was. I'm from the hood. I'm 66 00:03:54,796 --> 00:03:58,636 Speaker 3: making all of this money. I'm producing records for everybody. 67 00:03:58,796 --> 00:04:01,436 Speaker 3: All of them are working and going number one, and 68 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:03,916 Speaker 3: money's raining from the sky. I could do no wrong. 69 00:04:06,396 --> 00:04:08,716 Speaker 1: It was at this point that IRV God he made 70 00:04:08,716 --> 00:04:14,116 Speaker 1: a mistake. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to 71 00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:19,716 Speaker 1: Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This 72 00:04:19,916 --> 00:04:23,596 Speaker 1: is the third episode in our mini series inspired by 73 00:04:23,636 --> 00:04:27,876 Speaker 1: Michael Linton and Josh Steiner's book From Mistakes to Meaning Will. 74 00:04:27,916 --> 00:04:30,076 Speaker 1: The authors sit down with a wide range of people 75 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:32,516 Speaker 1: and try to make sense of their biggest screw ups. 76 00:04:33,276 --> 00:04:36,116 Speaker 1: One of their interviews was with her of Gotty just 77 00:04:36,156 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 1: before God, he had a stroke and died at the 78 00:04:38,516 --> 00:04:41,996 Speaker 1: age of fifty four. I listened to the interview and 79 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:45,276 Speaker 1: I found his story so moving that I asked Steiner 80 00:04:45,316 --> 00:04:47,796 Speaker 1: and Linton if I could include it in this series, 81 00:04:48,516 --> 00:04:51,556 Speaker 1: because in his story, I think is a really important 82 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: lesson not about the person who makes the mistake, but 83 00:04:55,596 --> 00:04:58,396 Speaker 1: about the people around the person who makes the mistake. 84 00:04:59,276 --> 00:05:00,116 Speaker 1: The witnesses. 85 00:05:04,676 --> 00:05:08,116 Speaker 4: Man I grew up, Oh man, I grew up. Let 86 00:05:08,116 --> 00:05:11,156 Speaker 4: me describe how I'm the youngest of eight kids. 87 00:05:11,516 --> 00:05:14,236 Speaker 1: This is Gotty talking to Litten and Steiner about his 88 00:05:14,356 --> 00:05:18,196 Speaker 1: childhood and growing up in Queen's We have no money. 89 00:05:20,316 --> 00:05:23,276 Speaker 3: We live in the home. I sleep in the attic. 90 00:05:24,196 --> 00:05:27,316 Speaker 3: They ever slept in the attic of a house in 91 00:05:27,316 --> 00:05:28,036 Speaker 3: the summertime. 92 00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:31,836 Speaker 5: There's no refuge. It's a hundred change. Yes, you wake 93 00:05:31,956 --> 00:05:34,276 Speaker 5: up every every day, you wake up in a puddle 94 00:05:34,316 --> 00:05:38,596 Speaker 5: of sweat like I had. That was my life. That's 95 00:05:39,316 --> 00:05:41,916 Speaker 5: it was a lot of love. My family, the most 96 00:05:41,956 --> 00:05:45,876 Speaker 5: loving family. But we had nothing. So when you talk 97 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:51,596 Speaker 5: about the ship, you told me, I'm not I don't 98 00:05:51,636 --> 00:05:55,356 Speaker 5: give a fuck. Yo, I'm getting money. Oh, I'm gonna 99 00:05:55,516 --> 00:05:58,916 Speaker 5: I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna work my ass off 100 00:05:58,996 --> 00:06:01,076 Speaker 5: and get it. I don't give a fuck what comes 101 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:01,396 Speaker 5: from it. 102 00:06:02,916 --> 00:06:08,036 Speaker 1: He was blunt, reckless, ambitious, and hugely talented. His rise 103 00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:11,236 Speaker 1: in the music world was swim. It was no accident 104 00:06:11,276 --> 00:06:14,516 Speaker 1: than Buttola called Gotti to work with Jennifer Lopez, then 105 00:06:14,636 --> 00:06:16,636 Speaker 1: well on her way to becoming one of the biggest 106 00:06:16,636 --> 00:06:19,636 Speaker 1: celebrities in America, and when the two of them met 107 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:23,596 Speaker 1: at Gotti's recording studio, Gotti from Queen's Jailah from the 108 00:06:23,636 --> 00:06:28,636 Speaker 1: Bronx to click, just so you know what to expect. 109 00:06:29,076 --> 00:06:31,636 Speaker 1: Were giving you the unfiltered gottie. 110 00:06:32,716 --> 00:06:36,356 Speaker 3: So I had like thirty hood niggas in the studio 111 00:06:36,916 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 3: and in walks Jlo, and she was straight Jenny from 112 00:06:41,156 --> 00:06:43,916 Speaker 3: the block. She had on some sweat pants and the 113 00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:47,596 Speaker 3: tank top. And if I tell you, she got in 114 00:06:47,596 --> 00:06:52,116 Speaker 3: that studio and she had every one of my guys 115 00:06:52,596 --> 00:06:56,756 Speaker 3: fall in love with her. She worked and talked to everybody, 116 00:06:57,076 --> 00:07:00,396 Speaker 3: and I was just like, Yo, she's just so dope, 117 00:07:00,556 --> 00:07:02,596 Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, because she could have been 118 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:05,596 Speaker 3: on some I'm a big star boogie shit, but she 119 00:07:05,716 --> 00:07:11,916 Speaker 3: was a total opposite, the biggest sex symbol, biggest superstar, 120 00:07:13,076 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 3: got on some sweatpants, her as was looking fucking phenomenal. 121 00:07:17,596 --> 00:07:21,876 Speaker 3: She worked, She literally worked the whole home. Like when 122 00:07:21,916 --> 00:07:25,356 Speaker 3: she left, every guy was like, Yo, she's dope. 123 00:07:25,436 --> 00:07:26,356 Speaker 1: I think she liked me. 124 00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:30,116 Speaker 3: I'm like, yo, dog, she's she worked us, Yeo. She 125 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:32,436 Speaker 3: she worked for fuck the rule. But I thought it 126 00:07:32,556 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 3: was so dope of us and me and her specifically, Yo, 127 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 3: we hit it off. Benny Medina, her manager, Benny Medina, 128 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:49,316 Speaker 3: was like HERV, you're gonna be like the Quincy Jones 129 00:07:49,316 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 3: to her Michael Jackson, she was like, We're not doing 130 00:07:52,716 --> 00:07:56,116 Speaker 3: nothing musically unless you're involved. 131 00:07:58,156 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 1: A year later, Ellen Magazine decided to do a cover 132 00:08:01,076 --> 00:08:04,116 Speaker 1: story on Jennifer Lopez. It was for their Sex and 133 00:08:04,196 --> 00:08:08,196 Speaker 1: Body issue June two thousand and two, headline Big Letters. 134 00:08:08,716 --> 00:08:14,156 Speaker 1: J Loo on fashion, that song and Puffy. Puffy referred 135 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,956 Speaker 1: to Puffy Combs, the infamous rap impresario who she'd just 136 00:08:17,996 --> 00:08:21,996 Speaker 1: broken up with, and that song referred to Ain't it funny? 137 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:26,116 Speaker 1: Because Gotti's reinterpretation of the song turned it into the 138 00:08:26,156 --> 00:08:29,956 Speaker 1: story of someone coming out of a very problematic relationship. 139 00:08:30,756 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 1: The writer asks her, is that song about Puffy? She says, no, 140 00:08:35,596 --> 00:08:39,636 Speaker 1: it's not. Then the reporter calls gotty. Jlo says, ain't 141 00:08:39,636 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 1: it funny? Isn't about Puffy? What do you say? And 142 00:08:42,836 --> 00:08:48,196 Speaker 1: Gody says, Oh, it's absolutely about Puffy, and Jlo knows it. 143 00:08:49,116 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: Here's the exact quote from the l magazine article, which, 144 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:55,916 Speaker 1: by the way, is nearly impossible to find now. My 145 00:08:56,036 --> 00:08:58,356 Speaker 1: producer had to get someone at the New York Public 146 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:01,916 Speaker 1: Library to unearth the issue from an off site storage unit. 147 00:09:02,876 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 1: I ain't gonna lie. We was thinking of effing with 148 00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:10,036 Speaker 1: Puffy because that's what the world wants to hear. And God, 149 00:09:10,036 --> 00:09:13,436 Speaker 1: he tells the reporter a story about running into Puffy before. 150 00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:16,276 Speaker 1: Ain't it funny came out and playing him the demo? 151 00:09:16,836 --> 00:09:20,716 Speaker 1: He says, you know the four Seasons on Dohaney in La. 152 00:09:21,316 --> 00:09:23,756 Speaker 1: I pull up and Puffs out there with his security 153 00:09:23,756 --> 00:09:26,116 Speaker 1: and I say, Puff, come listen to the new record 154 00:09:26,156 --> 00:09:28,916 Speaker 1: I did with your old bitch. So boom, he gets 155 00:09:28,956 --> 00:09:31,356 Speaker 1: in the car. So I'm blasting the record and when 156 00:09:31,356 --> 00:09:33,756 Speaker 1: it gets to the second verse, he jumps out of 157 00:09:33,756 --> 00:09:39,436 Speaker 1: the car, screaming, gotty, you bastard, this is the second verse. Listen, 158 00:09:40,716 --> 00:09:41,636 Speaker 1: you never had. 159 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:44,556 Speaker 4: This, well, you should have never played the game. 160 00:09:44,636 --> 00:09:47,716 Speaker 3: To play now and that you can lay. 161 00:09:51,876 --> 00:09:55,956 Speaker 1: He calls Jelo's ex boyfriend into his car and says, 162 00:09:56,636 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 1: come listen to the new record I just did with 163 00:09:58,956 --> 00:10:03,276 Speaker 1: your old bitch in a very public way. God, he 164 00:10:03,356 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 1: was essentially saying Jennifer Lopez wasn't being honest. He called 165 00:10:07,996 --> 00:10:09,916 Speaker 1: her credibility and question. 166 00:10:10,196 --> 00:10:16,596 Speaker 3: When I read it in that magazine, j Lo quote, 167 00:10:17,476 --> 00:10:21,596 Speaker 3: those records are not about Puff, daddy end quote. It was. 168 00:10:23,316 --> 00:10:27,276 Speaker 3: It's the worst mistake I've ever made in my life, 169 00:10:27,676 --> 00:10:31,476 Speaker 3: because I say that to say, because j Lo Benny Medina, 170 00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:36,156 Speaker 3: they was friends. They loved me, They love me like 171 00:10:36,236 --> 00:10:39,716 Speaker 3: I was a writer for them and I would do 172 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:42,556 Speaker 3: things for them that probably no one else could do, 173 00:10:42,676 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 3: and I would get done for them, and she was 174 00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:52,076 Speaker 3: my friend. Like why the fuck would I say that? 175 00:10:53,516 --> 00:10:55,076 Speaker 3: Why the fuck would I say that? 176 00:10:55,956 --> 00:10:59,556 Speaker 1: But God, he didn't stop there. He kept going right. 177 00:11:00,396 --> 00:11:06,076 Speaker 3: So I went on to say other damaging things, like 178 00:11:06,476 --> 00:11:08,636 Speaker 3: how would she know? She didn't write the records. We 179 00:11:08,796 --> 00:11:11,396 Speaker 3: made records and wrote the records. She just did what 180 00:11:11,436 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 3: we said, so she don't know who the fuck we 181 00:11:14,236 --> 00:11:18,236 Speaker 3: was talking about. And yeah, we was talking about Diddy. 182 00:11:19,516 --> 00:11:25,076 Speaker 3: And then I said some more damage and shit, I 183 00:11:25,116 --> 00:11:27,156 Speaker 3: was like, guys like me, we didn't listen to Jake, 184 00:11:27,196 --> 00:11:29,956 Speaker 3: We don't listen to Jalo's music. I made guys like 185 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:32,636 Speaker 3: me listening to j Loo's music. I said, before then 186 00:11:32,716 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 3: we just hit the mute button and looked at her ass. Yeah. God. 187 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:41,276 Speaker 1: He reflected on this with Michael Linton and Josh Steiner 188 00:11:41,316 --> 00:11:43,396 Speaker 1: when they spoke Wow. 189 00:11:43,396 --> 00:11:45,316 Speaker 3: And you could pull all this up in the l 190 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 3: magazine is there. Those are vivid quotes. Those are like 191 00:11:52,796 --> 00:11:58,316 Speaker 3: supreme asshole quotes that wasn't warranted. And when I look back, 192 00:11:58,636 --> 00:12:05,156 Speaker 3: I was like, what did you do to your friend? Yeah? So, 193 00:12:05,836 --> 00:12:10,356 Speaker 3: needless to say, needless to say, ruined my relationship with 194 00:12:10,596 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 3: j Lo. I apologized, I sent to Candy and flowers 195 00:12:16,436 --> 00:12:21,156 Speaker 3: and apologized a million times, and I was high, that's 196 00:12:21,196 --> 00:12:25,116 Speaker 3: no excuse, you know what I'm saying. I apologize by 197 00:12:25,196 --> 00:12:29,796 Speaker 3: us and she accepted my apology, but it forever damaged 198 00:12:29,836 --> 00:12:34,596 Speaker 3: your relationship, right. You know, superstars like j Loo, they 199 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:37,716 Speaker 3: have a small circle of people who they could trust. 200 00:12:37,756 --> 00:12:40,796 Speaker 3: And I think I was in there for a second 201 00:12:41,796 --> 00:12:48,076 Speaker 3: and I totally ruined it. Right, So I'm an asshole. 202 00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 3: Well you were in that moment. I'm totally in the 203 00:12:52,956 --> 00:12:58,436 Speaker 3: wrong and I'm a complete idiot. Make sure you say 204 00:12:58,476 --> 00:13:00,996 Speaker 3: that that I said that I'm a complete idiot. She 205 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:03,956 Speaker 3: didn't warrant that, she didn't warrant nothing that I said. 206 00:13:04,716 --> 00:13:07,756 Speaker 3: She was my friend, And why would I do that 207 00:13:07,756 --> 00:13:11,876 Speaker 3: with the biggest thought and most beautifulst person. Why how 208 00:13:11,876 --> 00:13:12,996 Speaker 3: do I do that with Jala. 209 00:13:27,196 --> 00:13:29,796 Speaker 1: One of the themes we've tried to explore in this series 210 00:13:30,356 --> 00:13:34,116 Speaker 1: is that mistakes have roots. They aren't random events. They 211 00:13:34,196 --> 00:13:37,636 Speaker 1: come from somewhere, They arise out of a context, but 212 00:13:37,676 --> 00:13:41,276 Speaker 1: the context often isn't obvious, not to those around the 213 00:13:41,316 --> 00:13:45,116 Speaker 1: mistake maker, and often not even to the mistake maker themselves. 214 00:13:46,116 --> 00:13:49,596 Speaker 1: In Gody's case, the context was a telephone call had 215 00:13:49,636 --> 00:13:52,836 Speaker 1: been on just before the reporter called. It was with 216 00:13:52,916 --> 00:13:56,196 Speaker 1: a prominent music industry executive. God. He asked that the 217 00:13:56,276 --> 00:13:58,876 Speaker 1: man's name not be used, so we're gonna bleep out 218 00:13:58,876 --> 00:14:01,196 Speaker 1: every mention of his name. All you need to know 219 00:14:01,636 --> 00:14:04,956 Speaker 1: is that the executive is white, and God he was black. 220 00:14:05,676 --> 00:14:08,196 Speaker 1: The two of them had an argument. One of Gody's 221 00:14:08,276 --> 00:14:10,676 Speaker 1: artists had played a part in a hit song and 222 00:14:10,796 --> 00:14:12,956 Speaker 1: was in the music video, but had been left out 223 00:14:12,956 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 1: of the radio version, and God he was unhappy about it. 224 00:14:16,916 --> 00:14:21,636 Speaker 3: So I was like, Yo, you're killing my artists. You 225 00:14:21,716 --> 00:14:25,316 Speaker 3: got him on the video, but on radio he's not there. 226 00:14:25,516 --> 00:14:28,676 Speaker 3: It's and then like mixed signals, Why are you hurting me? 227 00:14:29,516 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 1: Their argument got heated. The executive said it wasn't his fault, 228 00:14:33,636 --> 00:14:37,196 Speaker 1: the decision was someone else's at his label, a black man. 229 00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:41,996 Speaker 3: He was like, I told that fat nigga not to 230 00:14:42,356 --> 00:14:45,636 Speaker 3: not to put this out. But when he said the 231 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:48,796 Speaker 3: N word, Oh, that's when I went crazy. 232 00:14:49,196 --> 00:14:49,476 Speaker 6: Wow. 233 00:14:49,676 --> 00:14:52,956 Speaker 3: I said, what the fuck you say? I said, you 234 00:14:52,996 --> 00:14:57,276 Speaker 3: just call Cory Roone and nigga. I said, when this, 235 00:14:57,436 --> 00:14:59,996 Speaker 3: when this nigga see you, I'm gonna fuck you up. 236 00:15:00,716 --> 00:15:03,716 Speaker 3: I said, how about that? And he was like, and 237 00:15:03,836 --> 00:15:07,156 Speaker 3: we argue him, but he said he used the N 238 00:15:07,196 --> 00:15:09,116 Speaker 3: word on some racist shit. He said, I told us 239 00:15:09,196 --> 00:15:11,876 Speaker 3: fat nigga not to put the record out or put 240 00:15:11,916 --> 00:15:16,356 Speaker 3: him on it. Yeah, but when he said nigga, I went, 241 00:15:17,076 --> 00:15:24,716 Speaker 3: that's that's that's the anger. Yep. I'm not a volatile person. 242 00:15:24,996 --> 00:15:29,356 Speaker 3: I'm not a pop off. I would describe myself as 243 00:15:29,356 --> 00:15:34,876 Speaker 3: a cool guy, level headed. But it's something about when 244 00:15:34,876 --> 00:15:38,796 Speaker 3: a white person like uses the word nigga to me. 245 00:15:39,676 --> 00:15:44,276 Speaker 3: Mm hm oh, I'm ready to kill because it's like 246 00:15:46,116 --> 00:15:48,476 Speaker 3: you start thinking of all of the fucked up shit 247 00:15:48,596 --> 00:15:50,516 Speaker 3: that black people have been through when you got the 248 00:15:50,636 --> 00:15:54,836 Speaker 3: audacity to say nigga in front of me. Oh, I'm 249 00:15:54,836 --> 00:15:57,156 Speaker 3: gonna show you a nigga, now you know what I'm saying. 250 00:15:57,276 --> 00:16:00,076 Speaker 3: Like I used to always say, like when people would 251 00:16:00,116 --> 00:16:03,436 Speaker 3: ask me how how would you be able? How did 252 00:16:03,636 --> 00:16:05,916 Speaker 3: how would you think you would be able to operate 253 00:16:06,356 --> 00:16:11,556 Speaker 3: in those times of racism? And I always answer, I 254 00:16:11,556 --> 00:16:16,996 Speaker 3: would die. You know what? I'm saying because I couldn't 255 00:16:17,036 --> 00:16:20,276 Speaker 3: take the racism that would have been bestowed upon me. 256 00:16:21,756 --> 00:16:23,636 Speaker 3: I would have killed me a couple of white people 257 00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:26,556 Speaker 3: and they would have hung me and killed me, and 258 00:16:26,676 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 3: my life would be over. I couldn't take them doing 259 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:33,596 Speaker 3: something to my mother or you know, hanging my father, 260 00:16:33,716 --> 00:16:35,876 Speaker 3: and I'm living life. Nah, you're gonna have to kill 261 00:16:35,876 --> 00:16:42,356 Speaker 3: me too. So these are the thoughts that's in my mind. Yeah, 262 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:45,236 Speaker 3: have you experienced that before where you had white people 263 00:16:45,276 --> 00:16:47,356 Speaker 3: say things with you. A lot of my white friends 264 00:16:47,356 --> 00:16:50,036 Speaker 3: to say, Yo, that's my nigga. But I'm not mad 265 00:16:50,076 --> 00:16:50,356 Speaker 3: at that. 266 00:16:51,476 --> 00:16:55,716 Speaker 4: Yeah, use it when they say that's my nigga, it's 267 00:16:55,716 --> 00:16:57,916 Speaker 4: in IgG a. 268 00:16:58,836 --> 00:17:02,276 Speaker 3: He said, Yo, I told that fat nigga, that's n 269 00:17:02,316 --> 00:17:05,236 Speaker 3: I G G e R. It's a big, big difference. 270 00:17:05,876 --> 00:17:09,076 Speaker 3: Like I couldn't I couldn't believe that he just used 271 00:17:09,156 --> 00:17:14,196 Speaker 3: the N word to me. That's what made me so volatile. 272 00:17:15,516 --> 00:17:17,476 Speaker 3: And it was so weird. It was like as soon 273 00:17:17,516 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 3: as I hung up with the phone rang with L 274 00:17:21,196 --> 00:17:23,636 Speaker 3: it wasn't like a five minute it wasn't even like 275 00:17:23,676 --> 00:17:29,356 Speaker 3: a five minute cool off period. No hung up, man, Yo, 276 00:17:29,396 --> 00:17:33,916 Speaker 3: this is old magazine. Yeah, what the fuck? Y'all want. 277 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:38,756 Speaker 3: I didn't like saying hello a little different? 278 00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:42,836 Speaker 1: Can I ask, So, what do you think it was 279 00:17:42,876 --> 00:17:45,196 Speaker 1: that made you You think you were just gonna lash 280 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:47,196 Speaker 1: out at anybody who showed up in that moment? 281 00:17:48,436 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 3: Uh yeah, within that five minutes, Yeah, it was going 282 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:58,116 Speaker 3: to get the exact thing vibe what the fuck you want? Yeah, 283 00:17:58,676 --> 00:18:00,476 Speaker 3: it just what happened. It was the old magazine, not 284 00:18:00,596 --> 00:18:06,236 Speaker 3: one of my boys. Yeah, so I said what the 285 00:18:06,276 --> 00:18:10,556 Speaker 3: fuck you want? And he was like, oh, oh, I see. 286 00:18:11,476 --> 00:18:15,396 Speaker 3: Like as soon as he heard that response, he immediately 287 00:18:15,436 --> 00:18:17,836 Speaker 3: cut to the chase. He said, oh, oh, I'll just 288 00:18:17,876 --> 00:18:18,516 Speaker 3: get right to it. 289 00:18:19,076 --> 00:18:19,196 Speaker 1: Uh. 290 00:18:19,916 --> 00:18:25,436 Speaker 3: You know, Jlo said that the records, I'm really made 291 00:18:25,436 --> 00:18:32,276 Speaker 3: it funny and not about puff daddy ex boyfriend, and 292 00:18:32,316 --> 00:18:35,476 Speaker 3: I was like, what that bitch is lying? 293 00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 1: This was Serve Gotty's mistake. It changed his life. There 294 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:44,396 Speaker 1: was a version of the next twenty years where he 295 00:18:44,436 --> 00:18:46,356 Speaker 1: could have been a creative partner with one of the 296 00:18:46,396 --> 00:18:50,876 Speaker 1: biggest stars in the world. He had ideas from movies, collaborations. 297 00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:54,716 Speaker 1: Jaelo was at once in a lifetime opportunity. That's why 298 00:18:54,756 --> 00:18:58,636 Speaker 1: this was a mistake. It had consequences, but there was 299 00:18:58,676 --> 00:19:01,596 Speaker 1: a point in Gotty's interview with Steiner and Linton that 300 00:19:01,676 --> 00:19:03,116 Speaker 1: I couldn't get out of my mind. 301 00:19:03,756 --> 00:19:08,276 Speaker 3: Listen, how quickly did you realize that you'd made a mistake. 302 00:19:10,436 --> 00:19:15,076 Speaker 3: I didn't realize quickly. I was so angry and mad 303 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:17,756 Speaker 3: when I got off the phone with that magazine. I 304 00:19:17,796 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 3: thought nothing of it. It hit me when they sent 305 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:25,636 Speaker 3: me like the transcripts of what they was gonna plant. 306 00:19:27,516 --> 00:19:31,916 Speaker 3: How long after that was that? A couple a week 307 00:19:32,036 --> 00:19:35,236 Speaker 3: or so? I would say, A right, And when you 308 00:19:35,676 --> 00:19:38,596 Speaker 3: did you realize it right away? Yeah? I was like, 309 00:19:38,676 --> 00:19:42,676 Speaker 3: don't print that. They was like it's too but they 310 00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:46,276 Speaker 3: was like it's too late. Yeah. They loved it. They 311 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:50,596 Speaker 3: loved it, and they said it was too late, and 312 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:52,436 Speaker 3: I was trying to get them not to print it, 313 00:19:52,476 --> 00:19:56,356 Speaker 3: but they wasn't. They like, hey, buddy, you said it. 314 00:19:57,476 --> 00:19:59,596 Speaker 7: Yeah, did you get me try to did you get 315 00:19:59,596 --> 00:20:01,036 Speaker 7: me help to try to get them not to do it, 316 00:20:01,156 --> 00:20:01,556 Speaker 7: or did you just. 317 00:20:01,596 --> 00:20:07,076 Speaker 3: Let it go? Let it go? I gave it my effort, 318 00:20:07,156 --> 00:20:09,076 Speaker 3: but after my effort, I just let it. 319 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 8: Oh. 320 00:20:10,516 --> 00:20:13,276 Speaker 1: He realized he'd made a mistake that, in his anger 321 00:20:13,316 --> 00:20:15,836 Speaker 1: at one person, he had said something he didn't mean 322 00:20:15,916 --> 00:20:18,796 Speaker 1: to another, and when he tried to prevent his mistake 323 00:20:18,836 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 1: from having consequences, from turning into a serious mistake. He 324 00:20:22,876 --> 00:20:26,156 Speaker 1: was told, hey, buddy, you said it, it's too late. 325 00:20:27,596 --> 00:20:30,956 Speaker 1: After Linton and Steiner's book came out, I interviewed them 326 00:20:30,956 --> 00:20:33,716 Speaker 1: on stage at the ninety second Street Why in New York, 327 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:38,276 Speaker 1: and I brought up their chapter on gaudy. So who's 328 00:20:38,316 --> 00:20:40,556 Speaker 1: the villain of the story. 329 00:20:40,836 --> 00:20:42,276 Speaker 3: Not every story has to have a villain. 330 00:20:42,396 --> 00:20:44,396 Speaker 1: No, but tell me who the villain of the stories? 331 00:20:45,836 --> 00:20:48,116 Speaker 7: So don't Michael, don't fall for this like this is okay, 332 00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:49,796 Speaker 7: this look at this is why he's so good. 333 00:20:50,076 --> 00:20:51,356 Speaker 6: But don't fall for his trap. 334 00:20:51,436 --> 00:20:53,196 Speaker 3: Like okay, you can say not everyone. 335 00:20:53,276 --> 00:20:55,276 Speaker 1: I got to keep the conversation going. I would argue 336 00:20:55,316 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 1: it was the executive who used the N word, Josh, 337 00:20:58,676 --> 00:20:59,676 Speaker 1: here's a villain of the story. 338 00:21:00,396 --> 00:21:02,516 Speaker 3: Here's what I think that guy acted terribly. There is 339 00:21:02,556 --> 00:21:03,356 Speaker 3: no villain in the story. 340 00:21:03,436 --> 00:21:06,956 Speaker 7: And I think an important piece of what we tried 341 00:21:07,036 --> 00:21:11,956 Speaker 7: to describe is that there isn't always a villain, There 342 00:21:11,996 --> 00:21:15,716 Speaker 7: isn't always some outside danger, there isn't always some consequence 343 00:21:15,796 --> 00:21:19,356 Speaker 7: that has been derived from a villain. That these things 344 00:21:19,356 --> 00:21:23,596 Speaker 7: are deep rooted in ourselves and we're not villainous, and 345 00:21:23,636 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 7: so that aspect of our personality doesn't make us bad. 346 00:21:25,956 --> 00:21:29,676 Speaker 7: This isn't a morality test. This is an opportunity to 347 00:21:29,716 --> 00:21:33,436 Speaker 7: explore oneself and come to terms and acceptance of the 348 00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:36,156 Speaker 7: fact that we're flawed, and the way to get hopefully 349 00:21:36,156 --> 00:21:37,636 Speaker 7: healthier and better is to talk about it. 350 00:21:37,676 --> 00:21:38,556 Speaker 1: Who do you think the villain? 351 00:21:38,596 --> 00:21:38,676 Speaker 8: Is? 352 00:21:39,516 --> 00:21:41,516 Speaker 1: A man who has a very close relationship to the 353 00:21:41,516 --> 00:21:45,116 Speaker 1: biggest rock star in the world, a relationship that has 354 00:21:45,156 --> 00:21:49,076 Speaker 1: resulted in extraordinary commercial success. Is called by a reporter 355 00:21:49,196 --> 00:21:52,236 Speaker 1: and has asked a question about that relationship, and in 356 00:21:52,276 --> 00:21:55,036 Speaker 1: the course of answering that question, the man says, Oh, 357 00:21:55,036 --> 00:21:58,156 Speaker 1: she's a liar. Who's the villain in the story? Do 358 00:21:58,236 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 1: you think it's erv Now it's the reporter, But the 359 00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:08,356 Speaker 1: reporter doesn't No, no, no no. This is a crucial, crucial point, Michael. 360 00:22:08,956 --> 00:22:14,356 Speaker 1: Think this is because it's about when mistakes are made 361 00:22:14,836 --> 00:22:18,916 Speaker 1: and they are as deeply rooted as you suggest they are, 362 00:22:18,956 --> 00:22:21,236 Speaker 1: they're not what's you're The whole argument of the book 363 00:22:21,276 --> 00:22:23,196 Speaker 1: is a mistake can come out in the spur of 364 00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:25,996 Speaker 1: the moment, but it's not something that's coming out of 365 00:22:26,036 --> 00:22:27,636 Speaker 1: the spur of the moment. It's something that has roots. 366 00:22:28,236 --> 00:22:30,836 Speaker 1: And what does that require of those who are observe 367 00:22:30,956 --> 00:22:34,236 Speaker 1: and are part of the process in which the mistake 368 00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:38,876 Speaker 1: is played out. It requires some degree of grace and 369 00:22:39,036 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 1: forgiveness and understanding. So the reporter, here's some IRV God, 370 00:22:45,356 --> 00:22:51,516 Speaker 1: IRV God. He say something that is completely out of place. Right, 371 00:22:51,596 --> 00:22:53,796 Speaker 1: it makes the reason the reason that story. So that 372 00:22:53,876 --> 00:22:57,956 Speaker 1: story what you didn't what is important? Detail is here 373 00:22:58,156 --> 00:23:00,316 Speaker 1: is it goes. It's all across the country. It's like 374 00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:02,876 Speaker 1: it's huge. That's why it blows up so much. Everyone 375 00:23:02,916 --> 00:23:06,876 Speaker 1: seizes on this. Her longtime collaborator called j Lo a liar. Right, 376 00:23:07,556 --> 00:23:11,316 Speaker 1: if you are the reporter in that instance, and someone 377 00:23:11,356 --> 00:23:14,716 Speaker 1: says something they shouldn't say, your obligation is to say, 378 00:23:15,196 --> 00:23:17,716 Speaker 1: why did you say that? And if they can't give 379 00:23:17,716 --> 00:23:20,876 Speaker 1: you a satisfactory answer, your obligation is not to use it. 380 00:23:21,036 --> 00:23:24,916 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's not to use it. You're not You shouldn't. 381 00:23:25,276 --> 00:23:29,156 Speaker 1: You can't make someone The reporter turned that from a 382 00:23:29,236 --> 00:23:33,116 Speaker 1: nothing into a destruction of someone's career because they had 383 00:23:33,356 --> 00:23:37,556 Speaker 1: not the slightest concern for his well being or his reputation, 384 00:23:37,836 --> 00:23:40,916 Speaker 1: and they if they had an ounce of self understanding 385 00:23:41,036 --> 00:23:43,356 Speaker 1: or of general understanding. They would have understood that he 386 00:23:43,396 --> 00:23:46,076 Speaker 1: didn't mean to say that. They should at the very 387 00:23:46,116 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 1: least have said, did you mean to say that? Right, 388 00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:54,036 Speaker 1: that's your responsibility, and the reporter fail in that fundamental 389 00:23:54,116 --> 00:23:57,476 Speaker 1: Why do people hate the press Because because in an 390 00:23:57,476 --> 00:23:59,836 Speaker 1: interview like this, where we could talk for three hours 391 00:23:59,836 --> 00:24:01,996 Speaker 1: and you say one thing out of place because you 392 00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:04,036 Speaker 1: have to be irritated about something else, and the reporter 393 00:24:04,116 --> 00:24:06,916 Speaker 1: runs with that one thing that's about practice. Why is 394 00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:10,036 Speaker 1: this person getting a pass that's terror? Sorry, I'm really 395 00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:14,236 Speaker 1: upset about this. I was upset about this because you 396 00:24:14,276 --> 00:24:17,476 Speaker 1: can't do this if you're a journalist. The whole profession 397 00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:20,916 Speaker 1: works on an implied contract. Somebody grants you the gift 398 00:24:20,956 --> 00:24:25,316 Speaker 1: of their time and attention and thoughts. They make themselves vulnerable, 399 00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:29,476 Speaker 1: and in return you pledged to respect that vulnerability. You're 400 00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:32,596 Speaker 1: not a stenographer. You've entered, for the duration of the 401 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:39,036 Speaker 1: interview into an intimate relationship, and intimate relationships have rules. 402 00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:43,476 Speaker 1: But then I went home after that interview at the y, 403 00:24:43,836 --> 00:24:46,236 Speaker 1: after I had called the reporter a villain and a 404 00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:50,036 Speaker 1: disgrace to our profession, and I realized I don't even 405 00:24:50,076 --> 00:24:54,516 Speaker 1: know who this person is, and then I thought to myself, Oops, 406 00:24:55,476 --> 00:24:59,516 Speaker 1: now I've made a mistake. So I decided to track 407 00:24:59,556 --> 00:25:15,356 Speaker 1: the reporter down. That's after the break. What do you 408 00:25:15,436 --> 00:25:16,836 Speaker 1: remember about that interview? 409 00:25:18,516 --> 00:25:22,356 Speaker 8: It's funny you're asking this something that no one's ever 410 00:25:22,396 --> 00:25:25,356 Speaker 8: asked me, because I remember that interview quite well. 411 00:25:25,436 --> 00:25:26,516 Speaker 6: For a few reasons. 412 00:25:27,196 --> 00:25:30,996 Speaker 1: This is Carter Harris, he wrote yel profile. He's now 413 00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:34,516 Speaker 1: a screenwriter teaches at NYU, and one of the reasons 414 00:25:34,556 --> 00:25:37,516 Speaker 1: this article he wrote twenty five years ago, sticks out 415 00:25:37,796 --> 00:25:41,596 Speaker 1: is the reaction a God, particularly from Jlo and her 416 00:25:41,636 --> 00:25:42,836 Speaker 1: manager Benny Medina. 417 00:25:43,476 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 8: I actually remember being in a car with Benny Medina 418 00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:48,676 Speaker 8: in Los Angeles, and I can't remember why we were 419 00:25:48,676 --> 00:25:54,156 Speaker 8: in a car, but he was telling me how disappointed 420 00:25:54,276 --> 00:25:57,076 Speaker 8: Jlo was, and he was because it seemed like a 421 00:25:57,116 --> 00:25:57,836 Speaker 8: negative interview. 422 00:25:57,876 --> 00:25:59,996 Speaker 6: I wasn't negative at all from my perspective. 423 00:26:00,236 --> 00:26:03,636 Speaker 1: At some point, his profile of Jlo completely disappeared from 424 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:06,396 Speaker 1: the internet, and he always wondered if Jlo and her 425 00:26:06,476 --> 00:26:09,676 Speaker 1: manager had something to do with it. Was God upset 426 00:26:09,756 --> 00:26:13,556 Speaker 1: during the call, Yes, he was. Harris remembers he seemed 427 00:26:13,596 --> 00:26:16,636 Speaker 1: like he was in a state. He mentioned something about 428 00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:19,436 Speaker 1: having just gotten off the phone with someone he thought 429 00:26:19,436 --> 00:26:22,556 Speaker 1: Harris was a fashion writer, and God, he seemed relieved 430 00:26:22,596 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 1: to learn that Harris had been an editor at The Source, 431 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 1: the magazine that was the bible of rap at the time. 432 00:26:28,636 --> 00:26:31,596 Speaker 1: They talked about Puffy Combs and I'm real, I ate 433 00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:34,756 Speaker 1: it funny. And then God, he said that bit about 434 00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:38,476 Speaker 1: Jlo not telling the truth when you heard it when 435 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:41,956 Speaker 1: you were reviewing him and decided to use what you 436 00:26:41,996 --> 00:26:45,636 Speaker 1: were using, did you did you think that you might 437 00:26:45,636 --> 00:26:49,756 Speaker 1: be jeopardizing his relationship with Jaeloh? 438 00:26:50,116 --> 00:26:54,316 Speaker 8: No, And maybe that was naive of me, But what 439 00:26:54,396 --> 00:26:59,796 Speaker 8: I thought was in the moment was Wow, that was honest. 440 00:27:00,276 --> 00:27:01,556 Speaker 6: She might be a little bit. 441 00:27:03,996 --> 00:27:10,956 Speaker 8: Irked vexed by one or two of the quotes, but 442 00:27:11,556 --> 00:27:14,036 Speaker 8: I never imagined that it would. 443 00:27:14,356 --> 00:27:17,316 Speaker 6: Be such a big deal for her or for him. 444 00:27:17,516 --> 00:27:20,276 Speaker 6: I mean, I thought she'd be vexed. 445 00:27:20,356 --> 00:27:23,476 Speaker 8: I mean, when you say, you know, I gave her 446 00:27:23,476 --> 00:27:26,276 Speaker 8: more hood credibility, that's gonna be like, come on, dude. 447 00:27:27,836 --> 00:27:31,436 Speaker 8: Or when you say it was really about Diddy and 448 00:27:31,596 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 8: basically you're accusing her of not being honest, you know, 449 00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:40,516 Speaker 8: yeah that I totally understand why she was vexed. And 450 00:27:40,556 --> 00:27:41,916 Speaker 8: I even at the time, I was like, oh, she 451 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:45,356 Speaker 8: might be a little ticked off about this, but I 452 00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:49,036 Speaker 8: figured they'd air it out, either publicly or privately, that 453 00:27:49,316 --> 00:27:51,516 Speaker 8: she'd be like, come on, he overstepped on this one. 454 00:27:51,556 --> 00:27:53,756 Speaker 8: And then maybe he comes back and says, yeah, all right, 455 00:27:54,116 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 8: I was on Molly what she was willing to say 456 00:27:55,796 --> 00:27:56,156 Speaker 8: back then? 457 00:27:56,596 --> 00:27:59,916 Speaker 1: Is it weird to hear someone say twenty five years 458 00:27:59,956 --> 00:28:04,916 Speaker 1: later the biggest mistake they made in their life was 459 00:28:04,996 --> 00:28:06,396 Speaker 1: something they said to you in an interview. 460 00:28:06,796 --> 00:28:06,996 Speaker 3: Oh. 461 00:28:07,036 --> 00:28:10,596 Speaker 6: Absolutely made me feel very strange. 462 00:28:11,356 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 3: When I heard that. I was. I was, I was. 463 00:28:17,556 --> 00:28:20,916 Speaker 8: I was very surprised and very I was a little 464 00:28:20,956 --> 00:28:23,996 Speaker 8: disturbed too, because that when I heard that then I 465 00:28:23,996 --> 00:28:24,756 Speaker 8: did have feelings. 466 00:28:24,796 --> 00:28:27,156 Speaker 6: Then I was like, oh shit, what did I do wrong? 467 00:28:27,356 --> 00:28:27,516 Speaker 3: You know? 468 00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:30,756 Speaker 6: It was like, what was I responsible for this? Somehow? 469 00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:33,556 Speaker 1: Did he run the quotes by Gody and tell him 470 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,476 Speaker 1: that it was too late? You said it? No, that 471 00:28:36,516 --> 00:28:38,756 Speaker 1: would have been the fact checker. That's the way things 472 00:28:38,796 --> 00:28:40,756 Speaker 1: worked in the magazine world of those years. 473 00:28:41,036 --> 00:28:43,516 Speaker 8: If he had called me and said, I was in 474 00:28:43,516 --> 00:28:46,356 Speaker 8: a state, can you take those quotes out? Yeah, I 475 00:28:46,396 --> 00:28:49,876 Speaker 8: probably would have worked with him on that. But I 476 00:28:49,916 --> 00:28:52,796 Speaker 8: never got that call. Nobody ever asked me about those quotes, so, 477 00:28:52,916 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 8: you know, what can I what can I really do? 478 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:58,276 Speaker 8: But yeah, I certainly felt weird about it. 479 00:28:58,356 --> 00:29:00,516 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I. 480 00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:06,556 Speaker 8: Don't take any any joy in being, you know, a 481 00:29:06,596 --> 00:29:08,276 Speaker 8: part of anyone's biggest regret. 482 00:29:11,116 --> 00:29:16,156 Speaker 1: Carter was frank and thoughtful. I liked him. He was 483 00:29:16,196 --> 00:29:19,036 Speaker 1: talking about a decision he made many years ago when 484 00:29:19,076 --> 00:29:21,876 Speaker 1: he was much younger, and he said that he wouldn't 485 00:29:21,876 --> 00:29:25,676 Speaker 1: necessarily do the same thing today. I understand that you 486 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:28,916 Speaker 1: have to make a certain number of mistakes to understand 487 00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:29,876 Speaker 1: what a mistake is. 488 00:29:31,196 --> 00:29:35,796 Speaker 8: It's really interesting because if I had been in the 489 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 8: gym and somebody had told me this story and I 490 00:29:39,396 --> 00:29:43,396 Speaker 8: was not the reporter and I was not Gotti, I 491 00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:46,476 Speaker 8: probably would have had the exact same response. I'm pretty 492 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:48,516 Speaker 8: sure I would have been, like what they said, what 493 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:51,996 Speaker 8: they messed with Gotti? Like and they screwed up a 494 00:29:52,036 --> 00:29:55,356 Speaker 8: relationship with Jalo and Gotti. You know, this is bullshit. 495 00:29:55,436 --> 00:29:57,636 Speaker 8: This is like the media. You know they do this, 496 00:29:57,756 --> 00:30:01,516 Speaker 8: especially l and these corporate magazines and you know all that. 497 00:30:01,596 --> 00:30:05,796 Speaker 8: So I'm not surprised to hear that that was your response. 498 00:30:05,876 --> 00:30:13,476 Speaker 8: That probably would have been my response. But to the 499 00:30:13,556 --> 00:30:19,276 Speaker 8: larger point. I think we all do this in our 500 00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:23,996 Speaker 8: own way, in lots of different contexts. We jump to conclusions, 501 00:30:24,316 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 8: mistaken conclusions, and I certainly do in my life. And 502 00:30:29,356 --> 00:30:33,076 Speaker 8: if I've learned anything it's that I have to check 503 00:30:33,116 --> 00:30:36,436 Speaker 8: myself sometimes and say, wait a minute, I'm human like 504 00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:40,236 Speaker 8: everybody else, I'm jumping to a conclusion. I should go 505 00:30:40,316 --> 00:30:43,716 Speaker 8: look and see if there's more to this story. Doesn't 506 00:30:43,756 --> 00:30:46,076 Speaker 8: necessarily mean my conclusion that I wanted to jump to 507 00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:48,876 Speaker 8: is wrong, could be right, could be worse than I 508 00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 8: thought it was. But I do think that that's the 509 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:56,956 Speaker 8: thing to take from this is like, hey, everybody, each 510 00:30:56,996 --> 00:31:00,676 Speaker 8: of us can check ourselves. You know, we all have 511 00:31:00,716 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 8: the ability to check ourselves and say, hey, maybe I 512 00:31:03,316 --> 00:31:04,636 Speaker 8: should look into this a little bit more. 513 00:31:06,076 --> 00:31:09,596 Speaker 1: We can all check ourselves a little bit more. On that, 514 00:31:10,196 --> 00:31:16,956 Speaker 1: I have to agree. Revisious History is produced by Nina 515 00:31:16,956 --> 00:31:21,876 Speaker 1: Bird Lawrence, Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Adatt Haffrey. Our editor 516 00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:27,316 Speaker 1: is Karen Schakerji. Fact checking by Angelie Mercado. Our executive 517 00:31:27,316 --> 00:31:31,596 Speaker 1: producer Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original music 518 00:31:31,596 --> 00:31:35,956 Speaker 1: by Luis Quira, Sound design and mastering by Marcelo Diela. 519 00:31:36,036 --> 00:31:36,276 Speaker 3: Vera. 520 00:31:37,636 --> 00:31:47,516 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Gladwell, coming up on the next episode in 521 00:31:47,556 --> 00:31:48,716 Speaker 1: our Mistakes series. 522 00:31:49,476 --> 00:31:54,356 Speaker 6: This was madness and yeah and it was just jaw 523 00:31:54,396 --> 00:31:58,436 Speaker 6: on the floor. I just never experienced anything like that 524 00:31:58,596 --> 00:32:00,956 Speaker 6: and I didn't see it coming