WEBVTT - The Flash + Flashpoint & Secret Invasion Comics 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.080 Warning, this podcast contains spoilers for The Flash and some 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:20.720 theories for Secret Division. Hello on im Rosey Night, and 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.360 welcome back after our short break to x ray Vision, 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.080 the Crooked media podcast where we dive deep but to 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:30.600 your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture. We missed you. 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:32.480 We're glad you're back. We did. 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.479 In this episode previously on, I'm gonna give you a 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.840 little refresher on The Flash's journey through production hell and 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:43.080 obviously the controversies around it star Ezra Miller. In the 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:45.520 air Lock, we're going to talk about The Flash It's time, 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.879 and then we got a double omnibus for you. We're 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:50.839 going to be covering the two comics that are going 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.840 to be inspiring, all the stuff we're talking about Flashpoint, 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.920 and then to prepare for Secret Invasion, which is hitting 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.680 on the day you will hear this podcast. Jason's written 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.800 an in edible omnibus on Secret Invasion in the Nerd 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:06.520 Out and MCU Multiverse query from Homer. 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:13.000 Ooh coming up previously on Okay, First up, some background 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:17.280 context for The Flash, a very troubled production, focusing on 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:21.240 the issues surrounding star Ezra Miller. First of all, I 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.759 saw this film this weekend in the theater as one. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.880 I guess should I too saw it in the theater, 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:32.600 and I'm excited to talk about our thoughts. But I 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:37.039 will say I guess because of how pointedly troubled the 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.399 production has been. I was kind of surprised that it. 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:43.320 I mean, this is better than Black Adam. I enjoyed 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.200 some parts of it. I'll just leave it there, That's 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:45.840 what I'll say. 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:49.200 I will say my general takeaway is that it wasn't 0:01:49.200 --> 0:01:51.120 a film that was for me, but there was some 0:01:51.320 --> 0:01:53.440 moments where I was kind of blown away by the 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:56.720 artist tree and the good things yeah, that came out 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:58.640 of this movie that I think was, like you said, 0:01:58.720 --> 0:01:59.320 very troubled. 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.600 Okay, So where to even start with the Ezra Miller situation. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:09.919 Miller has been involved in a litany of legal issues, 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:15.160 starting with an arrest and an accusation of grooming a teenager. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:20.200 These exploits include trespassing, choking a woman in Iceland in 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:22.840 an incident that has been caught on camera, and other 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:28.120 issues dating back to twenty twenty, and these issues at 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.240 the time seemed to pose a potentially mortal threat to 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.760 the Flash production. I think you and I both opined 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.519 that there was no way that this movie could go forward, 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.240 and yet it has gone forward. Yeah. 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:44.480 I think once you see the movie and you understand 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:49.720 that Ezra is on screen for ninety nine percent of 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.880 the film, you understand the quandary on a business sense 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:56.520 that Warner Brothers was in, even though they never seemed 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:56.880 to have a. 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:58.120 Moral quandary about it. 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:02.480 I still it quite shocking that this film came out 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.600 and there has not been more conversation about the work 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.000 that Ezra has hopefully done to kind of hopefully make 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.240 themselves bare, make the people they harmed. That I feel 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.560 like it's quite strange there kind of hasn't been a 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:16.200 pr campaign or a conversation around that. But also, this 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.240 movie probably cost around three hundred million dollars, so I 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.560 understand that for Warner it's a business choice. 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:25.360 Yeah, that was part of the conversation we were having off Mike. Obviously, 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:30.679 in the Discovery era, the David Zaslav era, Warner Discovery 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:36.440 has been making a lot of waves by its unilateral 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.040 canceling of projects that were in the works and its 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:48.000 memory houling of various content that was on the HBO 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:53.119 Max platform, and all of this in order to basically 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:57.400 create write downs so that they could cut some of 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:01.680 the enormous debt that Discovery taken on in its leverage 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:06.200 purchase of Warner Brothers. So from that perspective, I agree 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.200 with you. I don't know how they could have not 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.040 done this film from a we need to cut the 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:18.239 debt perspective. This movie cost I think the reported numbers 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:22.080 somewhere south of two twenty yeah, south of three hundred million. 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.680 But like there's a lot of scuttle but that it 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:27.720 costs anywhere up to a half a billion, like. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:32.960 Mm hmm, especially including marketing and the many many reshoots. Also, 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.200 I think we will get into this more in both 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.560 the conversation about the Flash and also in my Flashpoint omnibus. 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.960 But yeah, it's really interesting. I was in a comic 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:45.279 shop in Palm Springs, one of my local comic shops 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.039 that I love. I love that shop, Comics Asylum, Palm Springs. 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.040 I was talking to the owner and all she wanted 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:52.400 was to see Grant Gustin in a Flash movie. 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.080 Yeah, and so many people have said that to me. 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.240 They've gone, I don't understand why they made this movie 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.120 with Ezra or why they didn't just get grant like 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:02.960 so many wide audience. 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.359 There was a moment and that I thought he was 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:09.320 gonna be in it. But we'll continue with that, right, Yeah, yeah, 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:10.240 we'll talk about that more. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:14.080 But basically, the other side of this, aside from the 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:16.680 Ezra of it all, which is the kind of I 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:18.800 feel like the thing that has really been way and 0:05:18.800 --> 0:05:21.280 heavy on us and on many of the audience, like 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.800 morally and kind of ethically, is like this seems like 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.839 it's being brushed over. But even before Ezra was even attached, 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:33.320 this movie has had an absolutely wild journey through production. 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.120 Yeah, let's go through it. Let's go through it. 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.120 So I just want to shout out Maya, who is 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.159 our crooked intern, because this is an unbelievable, like twenty 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.960 years that she had to flip through it. But look, 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:47.599 it starts with our old friend. David Goyer writes a 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:50.360 flash script in two thousand and seven with Wally West 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:50.760 as the lead. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:51.920 I would love to see it. 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.320 It was one of the things that we suggested could 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:56.880 have been done to fix this movie. Barry Allen is 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:00.960 a sportive character, but he's the first creative to leave 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.159 for creative difference. Now you will see that that is 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.640 a recurring theme. Same year, Sean Levy's hired to oversee 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.120 the film. After less than a year, he leaves due 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:11.359 to his conflicts with his other film Night at the Museum. 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:13.680 And then we should add that this was a period 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:17.720 in which, first of all, DC theoretically writing high due 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:21.960 to the success of Batman Begins scriptwritten by David Goyer. Yeah, 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.119 directed by Christopher Nolan, of course, But this was also 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:29.400 a period when the conversation around DC was that the 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:37.240 leadership of the Comics creative leadership was heavily micromanaging films 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.080 and had a very very particular angle and like conflicts 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:42.320 like this would often arise. 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.280 Yeah, and also remember this is pre Iron Man, right, 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:49.200 so there's no MCU. We have Batman Begins. That's a 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.160 game changer, and it reimagines the way that superhermovies can be. 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.000 And it also puts DC on the map for the 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:57.840 first time for a critically acclaimed live action movie in 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.560 quite a few years, where they'd already been smashing it 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.679 with the animated stuff. But it was a very interesting time. 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.919 And so end of December two thousand and seven, you 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.120 still have two more people who will be attached David Dobkin. 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.400 He's going to do a spin off of Justice League Mortal, 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.000 which is one of the most legendary never made movies, 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.040 and that would have cast Adam Brody as Barry Allen. Now, 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:23.920 I would personally have loved to see this. This is 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:28.720 George Miller's very famously never made Justice League movie, and 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:31.440 you were going to have like DJ Katrona as Clark Kent, 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:35.000 j Barroschell as Maxwell Lord, Like this is one of 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.440 those most famous kind of it never got made movies, 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.320 And of course you would have had Adam Brody then 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.800 as this lead of the Flash movie, but that didn't happen. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.080 Justice League mort Or gets canceled within the same year. 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.440 Flash continues on with a two thousand. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:49.160 And eight release date. 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:53.080 Then two thousand and seventy thousand and eight WGA Strike 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.560 further delays the Flash film production. Then Charles Roven is 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.160 brought on to produce with a new treatment by Jeff John's, 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:04.840 but the film is never greenlit. Twenty ten Green Lantern writers, 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:10.360 remember that beloved movie. Greg Balanty obviously now like the helmer. 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:11.040 Of a lot of the guy. 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:14.880 Yeah, the guy that we know from so many DC projects, 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.720 especially if you watch the TV show Michael Green and 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.080 Mark Guggenheimer developed They're gonna make green landin two that 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.280 didn't happen and the Flash October seventh, twenty yeah, I 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:25.720 mean you listen to that. 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.520 Right here is the period when Geoff John's noted Jeoff John's, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.160 well known comics writer, creator and executive at DC, was 0:08:34.200 --> 0:08:38.040 elevated to chief creative officer and really began an influential 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.040 and some would say troubled run definitely. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.000 And also so twenty ten, that's when we're last looking 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:45.439 at this. We were just talking about, you know, green 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.800 Lantin to the Flash. Flash Point happened in twenty eleven, 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:50.720 which Jeff Johns was the writer of with the artist 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.439 Adam Cuba, And in twenty eleven Green Lantin came out 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.520 and flopped. So you'll notice that there is no talk 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.640 for another four years, and that is October seven, twenty fourteen. 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:03.839 That's when the Flash show begins, Grant Gustin starring on 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.439 the CW and that becomes the way that many audiences 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.480 learn about the Flash, learn about the Speed Force, learn 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.520 about the multiverse. Twenty fourteen, Ezra Miller is cast as 0:09:14.600 --> 0:09:18.559 the Flash, so that's how long this movie. You're talking 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:24.960 nine years from when Ezra was cast and when Ezra 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.360 actually played the Flash and the movie came out, So 0:09:27.440 --> 0:09:31.040 that's a seriously long time in production. Obviously, Ezra is 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.400 planned to appear in Justice League. That happens, and then 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.600 a twenty eighteen solo film, which we now know didn't 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.320 come out till twenty twenty three. So here we start 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.840 just with the production troubles on this film. You have 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:44.760 Seth Graham Smith hired to write and direct the Flash story, 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.840 developed by Phil Lord and Chris Miller. Seth Graham departs 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.560 in twenty sixteen creative differences. Now, this is the most 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:52.640 famous one and the one I wish we could have seen, 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:55.199 which is Rick Famer. You are who, obviously we now 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.320 know is the unbelievable powerhouse behind some of the best 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:02.040 episodes of The Mandalorian. He's hired to replace it. Then 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:06.240 we get Cyborg's hired in Justice League, and apparently it 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:07.920 is going to play a big role in the Flash 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:10.240 solo film, which makes a lot of sense because this 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:12.520 was when people started to realize, oh, this is a 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:15.360 Flashpoint movie. And as we will talk about in the 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.240 Flashpoint universe. There is no Superman, but Cyborg is essentially 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:21.760 the Superman of the universe, so it's really important to 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:26.160 have him in that role. Famaua leaves twenty sixteen. Twenty seventeen, 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:28.560 writer Joby Harold is hired to write a new take. 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.720 Twenty seventeen San Diego Comicon, it's revealed the Flash will 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.200 be an adaptation of Flashpoint. 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:36.079 Important to note that at this time, Infinity War an 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.520 endgame or Infinity War was twenty eighteen. In Game was 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:45.920 twenty nineteen. Peak Marvel happening right now, and DC under 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.480 extreme pressure to be like, where's your shared universe? And 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:51.760 this is where Flashpoint comes in, because it is the 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:56.199 hinged movie that would create the next level shared universe 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:57.920 on top of Justice League stuff. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.959 It's actually really wild to think about it. Now we've 0:11:01.000 --> 0:11:02.880 seen the Flash, and you, if you're listening to this, 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:04.760 have probably seen the Flash or you've read about it. 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.920 It's kind of mind blowing because you're absolutely right. Flashpoint 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.880 was supposed to be their end game. It was supposed 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.360 to be their Infinity War. It was supposed to be 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:17.920 all of those mixed into one, as well as their Avengers. 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:21.000 It was going to be that huge crossover movie that 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.880 everything had been leading to, after Justice League, after Batman 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.400 Versus Superman, and it was supposed to explode the world 0:11:27.559 --> 0:11:31.480 out and introduce anyone that you wanted or bring in 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:35.520 new people, and that obviously is not the direction when 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:37.480 and in the end, we ended up in a situation 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.360 where this is the end of the DCEU rather than 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.319 kind of an expansion of it. Twenty eighteen Game Night 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.400 helmers John Francis Daily and Jonathan Goldstein, who we are 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:49.920 big fans of. They wrote the Dungeons and Dragon movie. 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:50.840 They were ate Homecoming. 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:52.760 Yeah, they were in talks to. 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:53.959 Make a Flash movie and it was going to be 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:55.560 very back to the future influence. 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.160 That influence is still there. 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.559 Well yeah, if you see they're the ones who actually 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:01.160 have the first story credit on the movie. 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:04.040 Yeah, because they obviously took a lot from that. 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:06.880 So then back to the future, like we said, we 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:08.800 saw it. The Flash movie's. 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:10.280 Delayed in twenty eighteen. 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:12.040 It was meant to come out in twenty eighteen, but 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.400 because of the Fantastic Beasts. 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:15.080 Movie, it's delayed. 0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:20.040 Then Ezra spoke about how they were working with comic 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.280 book icon Grant Morrison on this kind of darker take 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.560 of the Flash, which was going to be something they 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:27.600 were going to pitch that would be a different story, 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:29.760 which makes a lot of sense. Grants done some of 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.280 the best cosmic multiversal comic book writing. 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:36.240 Daily and Goldstein leave because the creative difference is twenty nineteen. 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.480 Seeing a pattern here, Andy mcschetti is hired to replace 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:42.960 them with Christina Hodson, who wrote Birds to Pray, which 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.800 I love, as the new writer. Then the movie's gonna 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.080 come out July first, My birthday. Twenty twenty two didn't happen, 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.000 but in twenty twenty we did get a big moment 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:54.959 that really felt like DC was doing something Marvel had 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.280 not done yet, which was when Ezra's version of the 0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:01.240 Flash showed up in the Flashed TV show during one 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:04.640 of their big crisis events and met Grant's Flash and 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.160 it was like, whoa, this is actually happening. And then 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.920 we hit April six, twenty twenty, and that video of 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:14.040 Ezra choking the woman in Iceland, which they claimed. 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.480 Was a joke just to put both sides out there, but. 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.080 That interaction goes online and then we start into that 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:23.559 Ezra era and everything else is more well known twenty twenty. 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.160 Michael Keaton's going to be in Batman. You know, Ben Affleck, 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.160 Bruce Wayne will be in the film. And we start 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:29.719 to get to where we know a little bit more 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:31.000 about the movie. Now. 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:35.080 The period that we just outlined, which leads us up 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.160 to the James gunn era right now, was a period 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:42.439 of executive turnover at DC. And I think you can 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:47.200 read that through the various so many regimes, so many regimes, 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.040 a lot of pocket regimes. TV didn't talk to film, 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.840 didn't talk to animation. They all have these five toimes. 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:55.720 And I think what you're seeing is with all the 0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:58.240 creative differences. As the result of that, you bring in 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.720 a director or writer right and you say, what's your take, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.880 We love it, go forward, the regime changes above the writer. 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:09.760 Now all of a sudden, that executive has a different 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:13.839 angle or has a different creative team that they want 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.720 to work with. They have notes. Things that were agreed 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.360 upon previously are no longer agreed upon because you've got 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.680 different parties involved, creative differences. And this is having over 0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:25.440 and over and over again, which is what you get 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:26.480 in situations like this. 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.080 It's kind of mind blowing. Like I feel like even 0:14:29.320 --> 0:14:31.320 me and you. We tell stories now in these spaces 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:33.880 and way, and we kind of are students of Hollywood 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:37.240 and this industry. But when you're outside of it even 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:38.840 and when you're even a little bit inside of it 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:40.520 the way I'm it kind of blows your mind how 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.120 much this stuff is chosen on a whim. I interviewed 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.880 Alex Winterer from Bill and Tedley, one of my favorite movies, right, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.200 But he was talking about Freaked, which is this cult 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.400 movie that he made real practical effects, very beloved, weird 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.920 cult movie. It was gonna be this huge teen focus 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.240 smash for the studio because this one exec loved it 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:06.160 and he thought it was so good and it was 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.000 so weird, and they were going to do Levi's commercials 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.200 and Pepsi commercials. And he left and the new exec 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.920 who came in went to a screening in like somewhere 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.720 in the South Bay, sat the back, saw these kids 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:22.080 like losing their mind, like behaving real rowdy, and just 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.120 was like, the movie's not coming out, and just shelved it. 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:26.000 Because he just didn't get it. 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.280 And that's like, that's the difference between you can have 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:30.400 your champion and this is not we're not even talking 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:33.160 about hugep here. This is an original, weird, like cult 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.480 practical effects movie. But that's how much of a whim 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.640 this stuff can be. And obviously, when you're talking about 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:41.200 the Flash or something that's so much money, that's a 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.040 whole different level of control that the regime won. 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.160 Here's a good example, and it's kind of off topic, but 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.080 it's kind of on topic. I don't know what the 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:55.960 cases now, but a period of time AMC was because 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.640 of the corporate ownership of the channel, AMC the home 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:04.240 of Memin and Breaking Bad. James Dolan, the owner of 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.800 the New York Knicks and you know, CEO of Cablevision 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.840 once upon a time executive at Live Nation and various 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:16.040 other things, had the ability to like thumbs up or 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.520 thumbs down, like cuts of Madmen, Oh my gosh. And 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.680 so there would be times where this is just like 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:28.000 stuff I've heard where Madmen be like waiting to see like, 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.040 oh can we do this? Like is this cutokay? Or 0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:32.720 like are we going to get a season two? And 0:16:32.720 --> 0:16:36.560 they're basically waiting for like James Dolan to be like yeah, sure, fine. 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.720 And one of the things that James Dolan wanted was 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:45.120 to have his band's music involved in some show at AMC, 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.200 which ended up being Hell on Wheels the I don't 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:52.440 know if people remember the Western show that James eventually 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:54.640 did get his band's music on, but that was one 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:56.560 of the things that he was trying to do. And 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.560 it just goes to show you how like personalities of 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:05.080 zex absolutely influence all the things that you see mm hmm, 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.920 and we imagine that, oh, this is part of a 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:10.520 strategic vision and there's a reason. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:10.879 No. 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.600 Sometimes like a person just is like, well, I want 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:16.760 to put this in there. Okay, now, we got to 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:18.520 do this, and that's just what happens. 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:21.360 And I do think that that is relevant here, especially 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.760 because not only because of all these different iterations that 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.160 we're talking about that almost became the Flash, but also 0:17:28.359 --> 0:17:30.439 just and obviously there is a monetary element of this 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:32.320 and we will talk about this more, but even the 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.879 fact that David zaslav As the exec saw Batgirl, didn't 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.080 like it and said this isn't worth releasing, and then 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:40.960 saw the Flash and said, well, I think this is great, 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:42.720 and we spent a lot of money about it, so 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:44.399 we're going to throw all our money into that and 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:45.160 take the right down. 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:45.600 On bat Girl. 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.480 Even there is that once again a like subjective choice 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.760 on quality, as well as many many dollars and business 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.760 kind of things coming into it too. But it's really interesting. 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:01.040 Perversely, David Zaslav has become something of a pioneer in 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:05.120 the realm of write downs because once he started taking 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:11.080 programs off of his platforms, other platforms have followed suit. Yeah, 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:16.240 Disney Plus, Netflix, Hulu, etc. Disney Plus various other platforms 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.120 are also taking shows off of their system in order 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:23.000 to take the write down, not have to pay the creators, 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:28.400 and basically lower their debt bill going forward as Wall 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.960 Street continues to hammer streaming. Now that we've talked about that, 0:18:32.520 --> 0:18:34.560 let's talk about the movie. 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.360 Croocket is raising money for Vote Save America's fuck bands 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:43.000 Leave Queer Kids Alone funds supporting organizations on the ground 0:18:43.040 --> 0:18:45.600 in states that are banning care and targeting trans youth. 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:48.360 Our original goal was fifty k, but you are all 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.520 so amazing and have crushed that already, so now we're 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.960 doubling it to one hundred k. You can donate to 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.399 either political impact organizations or tax deductible nonprofits or both. 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:01.800 Head to Vote Save America dot com slash fuck bands 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:03.240 to learn more and donate. 0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:17.440 Today, we're stepping out of the air lock and into 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:22.600 Central City for the Flash in theaters. Now, Rosie your thoughts. 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.800 I was very happy to see Kirssy Clemens back as 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:26.520 Iris West. 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:27.840 I love that casting. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.280 I hated what they did with her in Justice League. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:32.919 I still didn't think she got enough here, but I 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.479 love to see it. That was my happiest thing to see. 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.359 Other positive notes that I had Andy Mische, that's a 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:43.080 man who can direct a Batman. I understand why they 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.480 gave him Brave in the bold. You know what it is, Okay, 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:46.959 and I'm sure we're gonna agree on this, but like, 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:48.520 let's not get to the babies yet. 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.560 We'll leave the babies, the gummy babies, the babies, We'll 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:53.719 leave them for a minute. Let's start on something positive, 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:58.680 the much maligned, the much milized social cg rinezme sibling babies. 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:03.040 But like, you know what, this is a movie which somehow, 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:04.760 I don't know how this happened, but it did. This 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:07.320 is one of the truest impacts this movie had me. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.399 I felt sad that we didn't get to see more 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:10.480 Ben Affleck Batman. 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.240 This ben Afflet Batman great. This ben Affleck. 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.520 Batman who gives him that speech, who tells him our 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:18.960 scars make us who we are. 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:20.359 You can't take that away. 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:25.000 The Batman, who is wearing a dark night returns cowl 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.719 that looks like it was drawn by Frank Miller and 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:30.439 inked by Klaus Jansen and colored by Lim Vallei. And 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:33.080 he's on the motorbike and he's zooming through the city 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:34.639 with this kind of soaring score. 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:36.920 I thought they should have won. They should have started 0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:38.000 the movie there no babies. 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.160 But also like that to me, I was like, oh, 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:43.359 I was like, okay. Either ben Affleck was like, this 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.119 is my last chance, so I'm gonna kill it, or 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.119 he was never given the material to do something special. 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:49.720 Because it made me feel like I would have liked 0:20:49.760 --> 0:20:51.159 to see this version of Batman. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.919 Him and Keaton, they were the highlights for me, no question. 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.920 I feel the same way. I thought the cast as 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:01.000 well was great. It was wonderful to see Belverdu from 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:08.000 Ye Combien as as Barry's mom. I thought that it 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.760 was a better film than I thought it was going 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:12.720 to be. Like, I thought it was pretty good, actually 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.720 certainly better than Black Adam. I thought there were elements 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:19.879 of the emotional beats that actually kind of worked for me. 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.919 To your point, the relationship with Michael Keaton Batman with 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:28.040 Batman nineteen eighty nine was really I thought pretty fun. Actually. 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:34.000 That being said, there was one moment that really like 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:39.000 record scratched for me. Yes, And it's like eight minutes 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:43.639 into the film. Barry after, you know, he's got to 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.920 do this little thing to kind of help Batman out. 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:51.120 This is where the Babies comes in, and on his 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.159 way out, he's like interacting with some people on the 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:59.720 street and then he says to them something about I'm 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:02.920 going to kind of botch this, but paraphrasing, he mentioned 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.720 something about mental health and how important it is, and 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.399 he says that's something that the Justice League hasn't figured 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:12.360 out yet, which clearly to me, I mean, they basically 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.720 do a wink to camera. It's so like it felt 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:19.159 like a self referential Hey, we know you're kind of 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:24.439 aware of Ezra's issues and we are too, and we 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:26.520 just wanted to acknowledge that that's the only way it 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:29.639 makes sense for the inclusion of this in there. And 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.800 it just felt really tenured to me, like I don't 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:34.879 know that this is a thing to make fun of. 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.879 That to me was when I just turned on the movie, 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:41.240 like I couldn't help it. Like the CG babies, I 0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:43.679 like weird, outrageous stuff, but that. 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:45.280 This extra I don't. 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:48.159 It's like the ezra of it all was always going 0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:49.840 to be hard for me. Yeah, but I was like, 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:50.520 you know what, I'm going to. 0:22:50.560 --> 0:22:51.040 Go into it. 0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.400 I'm gonna hope that they're doing the work they need 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:56.560 to do. I'm gonna hope that co Iron Eyes is 0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:58.720 somewhere out there safe and being looked after it. I'm 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:00.640 just going to try and watch the movie and think 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:02.280 about the movie and think about the comics and all 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.600 the people who made this movie possible, all the thousands 0:23:04.600 --> 0:23:06.960 of people who worked on it, and the CGI babies. 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:09.960 I was like, this is objectively terrible, and I kind 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:13.679 of love that many studio people and Tom Cruise somehow 0:23:13.720 --> 0:23:16.359 thought this was possible. And I kind of like it 0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:19.400 almost like passes into camp that people were talking about 0:23:19.440 --> 0:23:21.400 this being the greatest movie of all time and there's 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:25.280 like CGI babies being put in microwaves. But then when 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.480 they did this like nod nod, wink wink joke. 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:29.320 I didn't like that. 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:31.639 It was quite gross. And also for me, I was like, 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:35.480 is this a joke about how Warner Brothers like didn't 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:38.520 help Ezra because they're like the Justice League is still 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:40.560 working on that, and the implication is like, well, Ezra 0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.640 didn't get that help, right, I just it was really 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:45.159 gross and I know they must have done that on 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:48.160 a reshoot. There's just no way that that joke would 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:49.080 have been in there before. 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:52.040 Well either way, right, I've thought about this too. Let's 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:54.119 say it was in the original kind of out. The 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:59.199 decision to leave it in is clearly one that is 0:23:59.359 --> 0:24:05.639 based on a acknowledgement of Ezra's legal issues in the world, 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:09.879 because that's the only if the surely people flag that 0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.880 line as Ezra's shoes unfolding and somebody would have gone, 0:24:12.960 --> 0:24:14.560 do we want to do this? And I think the 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.439 decision to go, if indeed it was in the original script, 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:20.199 to go forward with it, is like, hey, let's you know, 0:24:20.320 --> 0:24:22.800 let's say that we get it. It's like it's like 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:24.679 Tom wamscans, you know, we hear for you. 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:29.600 It feels like, oh, we hear the big succession move. 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:32.919 Yeah, it feels like, hey, let's show people that we 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:35.879 get it. We understand that this is Hey, we know 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:39.320 we're not sticking our heads in the sand. We we 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:41.600 understand that you've heard all about this and we want 0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:44.240 to let you know that we we hear for you, 0:24:45.119 --> 0:24:47.359 and we understand that that's the only way that you 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:49.480 go forward with this. And it just felt really weird 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:50.680 to me. It's really weird. 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:54.720 And also it's Ezra talking to camera, so it's the 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.439 joke is to the audience as well. Like ver I was, 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:00.399 I was not a big fan, and then luckily they 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:02.800 distracted me with the Batman that kind of comes up next, 0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:05.880 you know, gets see Jeremy Irons again as Alfred, which 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:08.560 I think is such a brilliant cost thing like love that. 0:25:08.880 --> 0:25:11.640 So, yeah, you spoke about Andy. I want to talk 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:15.240 about Andy Muschetti, director of it. He's supposed to direct 0:25:15.280 --> 0:25:19.480 Brave in the Bold, as you mentioned, that's the apology movie, right, Yes, allegedly. 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:21.800 I don't know this for a fact, but I will 0:25:21.840 --> 0:25:24.880 say that I think when you get a person who 0:25:24.920 --> 0:25:29.800 comes in and is a good soldier right and takes 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:37.200 on a absolutely haunted cursus Poltergeist production that is beset by 0:25:38.600 --> 0:25:43.000 wild issues with its star that cannot be replaced because 0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:47.720 they are in essentially every shot of the movie, every 0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:52.040 single shot. I would say six percent of the movie 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:55.399 they are in. I think you got a let them 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:57.280 do brave in the bold and I think Andy did. 0:25:57.520 --> 0:26:00.960 I think he did a really good job. Great for Batman. 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.560 CG issues aside, and listen, I don't like the CG. 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:07.280 Was it weird? Yes, I thought there were some weird 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:11.679 design choices. Obviously, people worked extremely hard and CG and 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:12.240 they did. 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:15.679 According to Andy Maschetti, that was a design choice. So 0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:17.159 I just want to say, I think it was the 0:26:17.200 --> 0:26:20.840 wrong choice. But this was not a case allegedly according 0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:22.720 to the studio, which you know, take it with a 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:26.000 pinch of salt. This was allegedly a choice rather than 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:28.760 a crunch issue or a timing issue. So people worked 0:26:28.800 --> 0:26:32.000 really hard to do what the studio asked them to 0:26:32.040 --> 0:26:33.080 make it look this way. 0:26:33.280 --> 0:26:36.600 You know, chaos spreads and influences everything, and we've got 0:26:36.640 --> 0:26:40.600 a production that is this chaotic. It's not perhaps surprising 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:43.600 that that some of it would reach the screen. And 0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:46.439 it's I guess you know, your mileage may vary if 0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:51.000 you if you perceive the shortcomings in the cg to 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:54.399 be an effect of that chaos. But I will say 0:26:54.840 --> 0:26:57.600 the fact that so little of that chaos reached the 0:26:57.640 --> 0:27:00.879 screen is a credit to everyone who worked on the 0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:05.640 film in Andy like that did good job, because it's 0:27:05.640 --> 0:27:08.800 incredible that you made a cohesive film out of that. Now, 0:27:09.520 --> 0:27:12.760 the Batmen, I also loved the Batman. I thought the 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:16.679 Batman were great. A small change here in which Michael Keaton, 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:21.920 unlike in Flashpoint, plays Bruce Wayne alternate version Bruce Wayne, 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:22.840 not Thomas Wayn. 0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:25.600 I do want to say that was a big question 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:28.119 I had same Why not just be Thomas Wayne. 0:27:28.200 --> 0:27:30.160 I don't get it. I understand they wanted. 0:27:29.920 --> 0:27:32.960 It to be like it's nineteen eighty nine Batman, but that, 0:27:33.160 --> 0:27:36.199 I will say in the Cannon causes a problem because 0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:38.600 if you did not know this now, I want to say, 0:27:38.720 --> 0:27:40.200 I feel like, if you listen to this podcast, do 0:27:40.200 --> 0:27:42.080 you think that I'm like a huge arrow Verse Stan 0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:44.280 That is not the case. The arrow Verse has been 0:27:44.359 --> 0:27:46.800 very hit and miss for me, but I appreciate the 0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:47.920 impact it had. 0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:49.200 On the same access. 0:27:49.240 --> 0:27:52.280 I am also a comic book story. You know, we 0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:54.560 had like the Legends of Tomorrow. That's the show I've 0:27:54.560 --> 0:27:57.080 actually watched all of them, thought was really brilliant, especially 0:27:57.080 --> 0:28:00.199 from like the third season on, but generally not a 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:03.680 huge like passion of mine aside from the impact it had. 0:28:03.880 --> 0:28:06.919 But in the canon of the original Flash series, the 0:28:06.920 --> 0:28:10.040 original Arrow series, those are set in the same world 0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:13.480 as Keaton's nineteen eighty nine like, there are references to 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:15.320 that that was always the way it was meant to be, 0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:18.280 So this then again brings up that canon issue of 0:28:18.320 --> 0:28:20.719 where is Barry if this is the same universe. I 0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:23.399 did think it was really interesting that he wasn't playing Thomas. 0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:26.520 I think that would have been an easy, fine, cool fixed. 0:28:26.640 --> 0:28:28.119 I don't think it would have taken away from the 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:30.680 nostalgia because it's still Keaton, and I just think it 0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:31.440 would have been cool. 0:28:31.600 --> 0:28:34.080 I think the idea is, you know, look no further 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:38.560 than in Fast X for a film in which decisions 0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:41.760 are made that you then get locked into for a franchise. Yeah, 0:28:41.760 --> 0:28:44.080 I think they didn't want to lock into a world 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:48.440 in which Michael Keaton is Thomas Wayne forever in case 0:28:48.480 --> 0:28:50.960 they want to bring him back, or a world in 0:28:51.000 --> 0:28:54.040 which he's Thomas Wayne and then all of a sudden 0:28:54.080 --> 0:28:56.000 he's Bruce Wayne and you kind of have to explain 0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:57.800 it to the audience. I mean it's a past. Yeah, 0:28:57.840 --> 0:29:00.160 I think this was the path of least resistance and 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:05.440 I get it. I let's talk about the babies. Okay, 0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:08.720 So this okay, So Andy has been asked about the babies. 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:11.880 There's a spoiler. There's a sequence early in the film 0:29:11.920 --> 0:29:16.600 in which Batman ben Affleck. Batman needs the Flash's help 0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:20.640 and he's called everyone else, but they're all busy, and 0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:24.160 so Barry has to go help Batman and he has 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:26.560 to save all these babies from this hospital that is 0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:32.640 like crumbling into a sink call. And the babies look bizarre. 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:35.920 I don't like, there's no way. They look very very strange, 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:37.840 like overly smooth and with. 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:42.080 If you've seen Twilight, they look like the baby from Twilight. 0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:47.360 They over emote, they are very obviously fake, and they 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:50.280 look I will say, this is fair, I think from 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:52.800 Andy's said, it's supposed to look this way. So I 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:56.080 mean they look like scratched. They don't look like it's finished. 0:29:56.240 --> 0:29:58.120 A lot of people who saw this at cinema, Coon, 0:29:58.200 --> 0:30:00.760 et cetera, was like, this isn't the Fini version, Like 0:30:00.800 --> 0:30:04.000 obviously it's going to be a launch review screenings, people 0:30:04.040 --> 0:30:05.920 thought that it wasn't going to be the finished version, 0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:08.600 and that was kind of the messaging that they were 0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:11.840 very interesting or that they were sharing. I think that 0:30:11.920 --> 0:30:13.840 was more just like their presumption because of the way 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:14.320 it looked. 0:30:14.520 --> 0:30:16.160 But that was if you go on letterbox. 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:18.440 A lot of people who saw the previous screenings in 0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:20.160 the lead up to the release were like, obviously, this 0:30:20.240 --> 0:30:21.240 isn't the finished version. 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:21.800 It can't be. 0:30:22.360 --> 0:30:24.280 It's the same version they were showing at Cinema Con. 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:28.040 It's the same version. This was a choice. I don't 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:31.160 understand it. Well, yeah, say Andy, because I think this 0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:32.120 is very interesting. 0:30:32.280 --> 0:30:34.480 Yeah. Here's his quote. The idea, of course, is we 0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:36.760 are in the perspective of the Flash, so when Flash 0:30:36.840 --> 0:30:39.880 is accessing the speed force and using his powers. Yes, 0:30:40.160 --> 0:30:43.040 what Andy is then saying is you're seeing things as 0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:46.000 the Flash seees them. So he continues quote, everything is 0:30:46.040 --> 0:30:48.320 distorted in terms of light and textures. We enter this 0:30:48.480 --> 0:30:51.320 water world, which is basically being in Barry's POV. It 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:52.760 was part of the design. So if it looks a 0:30:52.760 --> 0:30:54.440 little weird to you, that was intended. 0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:57.200 I hate to be a guy who is picking apart 0:30:57.240 --> 0:30:59.560 this answer because I love. I love the commitment head 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:02.200 to support the vision. I think it's a I think 0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:05.360 it's really cool to support the CG artist like this, 0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:09.280 Like this has not turned into some chaotic Marvel esque fallout, 0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:11.560 even though as many people have pointed out, and I 0:31:11.600 --> 0:31:14.040 don't disagree, I do think the CG and this is 0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:16.720 worse than the CG in Man Quantumania by like quite 0:31:16.800 --> 0:31:18.960 a far, a far reach. 0:31:19.120 --> 0:31:20.320 I think that that's hercuous. 0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:24.560 But like so I will say something here because this, 0:31:24.560 --> 0:31:27.320 this quote specifically, my understanding is about the CG in 0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:30.760 general and very specifically one of the things that this 0:31:30.920 --> 0:31:33.960 movie does. Okay, I'm gonna do like a one sentence 0:31:34.000 --> 0:31:35.760 description of the movie, so if you haven't seen it, 0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:39.280 you don't understand. Barry goes back in time to save 0:31:39.320 --> 0:31:43.239 his mum. To do that, he accesses something that in 0:31:43.240 --> 0:31:45.480 the movie they call the Chrono Bowl, which in the 0:31:45.480 --> 0:31:48.040 comics we would call the cosmic treadmill, and that is 0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:50.800 where he essentially accesses the speed force, and he finds 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:53.320 an area that looks kind of like a zoe trope, 0:31:53.360 --> 0:31:55.320 you know, the old way they used to show movies 0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:58.720 and moving images, and in there he can travel through time. 0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:01.200 Now doing that causes a new timeline. That's where he 0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:04.400 meets Batman. That's where he meets Sasha Karl's Supergirl. SOD 0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:06.400 comes back and they have to defeat them together, and 0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:09.040 eventually he has to go back fix it, let his 0:32:09.160 --> 0:32:11.360 mum die, and the movie's over. 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:12.240 So that's what happens. 0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:15.240 But the Crona Bowl is the big issue with CG 0:32:15.480 --> 0:32:18.160 in my opinion, and this is what Andy's talking about, 0:32:18.360 --> 0:32:21.080 because when you go in there looks like a SIMS game. 0:32:21.880 --> 0:32:25.080 It does. That to me was weirder than the babies 0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:28.440 the cron Bowl because it's so much info and you're 0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:30.560 in there so much, it looks like a you know 0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:32.160 what it looks like? To me, it looked like a 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:35.560 like an iTunes screensaver, exactly like a visualizer. 0:32:35.880 --> 0:32:38.600 Yes, it looks like a visualizer, but instead of nice 0:32:38.960 --> 0:32:44.400 calming images, it is people right and moments from the 0:32:44.440 --> 0:32:46.040 film but rendered in. 0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:48.400 It's a horrifying mushroom trip. 0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:50.840 Yes, it's a horrifying mushroom trip. And you spend a 0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:52.640 lot of the movie in there and you wish that 0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:56.680 you didn't. So I think Andy's defense and explanation of 0:32:56.720 --> 0:32:59.840 the CG works in that framework. Because you are in 0:32:59.880 --> 0:33:03.840 the cronable is in Barry's perspective. But I will say 0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:05.800 at the beginning, even when Barry is not in the 0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:07.960 speed force and he's pulling a baby out the microwave 0:33:07.960 --> 0:33:09.680 in the normal time, the baby still look funck. 0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:14.560 I will also say that listen again, the effects people 0:33:14.640 --> 0:33:17.080 worked very hard on this, I'm sure, but I think 0:33:17.120 --> 0:33:21.480 that it's not uncommon for reshoots, particularly VFX reshoots, to 0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:23.960 like be happening late, late, late, late late in the game. 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:27.720 I'm sure at a certain point, when you're already over budget, 0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:30.560 potentially hitting the half billion mark, a lot of that 0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:32.920 is going to your star because of their litany of 0:33:33.080 --> 0:33:36.360 very very serious legal issues. Yeah, at a certain point, 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:39.320 it's like that's where all the money goes, you know 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:42.000 what I mean, Like you're just not, hey, do we 0:33:42.120 --> 0:33:46.320 have X amount to like do some tweaks on the 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:49.320 kronabl No. Yeah, Like I don't know that that happened, 0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:52.400 but it feels like that's probably what happened. 0:33:52.800 --> 0:33:57.200 I don't see a world where you spend four years 0:33:57.200 --> 0:34:01.400 making this movie and visualizing this movie and crafting these 0:34:01.480 --> 0:34:04.320 big fight scenes and these emotional beats, and you see 0:34:04.320 --> 0:34:06.520 the Crona Bowl and you think, yeah, people are gonna 0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:08.920 love that, Like that's gonna sell our story. I just 0:34:09.040 --> 0:34:09.440 I don't. 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:10.600 I don't see it. 0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:15.799 I was constantly pretty shocked every time we were in 0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:18.680 there that that was a choice. It was so weird, 0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:22.200 and yeah, it was not. It was not something that 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:26.120 worked visually for me. And it definitely gave me the 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:29.280 feeling of like like a two thousands like cut scene 0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:30.719 from like a PC game. 0:34:31.160 --> 0:34:34.360 Yeah, it's very the Mummy. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely Scorpion 0:34:34.440 --> 0:34:37.960 King energy. Yeah. Now, there are elements of this movie 0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:41.239 that I really liked, again Batman, I liked a Supergirl 0:34:41.400 --> 0:34:43.319 Sasha Karl I thought was great. Was she'd been in 0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:45.959 it more? Was she'd been in it more? I did? 0:34:46.719 --> 0:34:49.239 Here's an issue where you feel like, okay, here's where 0:34:49.239 --> 0:34:54.360 they ran out of money for stuff? Spoiler The battle 0:34:54.440 --> 0:34:58.239 against Zod just kind of what happened? I don't know. 0:34:58.360 --> 0:35:01.080 Did we did we win? Did we not win? I 0:35:01.160 --> 0:35:02.080 think you didn't win. 0:35:02.239 --> 0:35:05.239 I think the flesh just left, the flash left, and 0:35:05.280 --> 0:35:06.800 then Supergirl gets murdered. 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:10.520 In my mind's eye as I recall this, it's really 0:35:10.600 --> 0:35:13.640 kind of ambiguous. Is what then happens with that big battle. 0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:15.960 It just kind of like Peters Out. Okay, I think 0:35:16.000 --> 0:35:16.359 this is. 0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:18.279 The biggest issue for me for this movie compared to 0:35:18.320 --> 0:35:21.120 say a movie like venom Let there Be Carnage right 0:35:21.440 --> 0:35:23.160 now that we both had a lot of fun like 0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:25.920 talking about how crazy that movie was and how it was. 0:35:25.920 --> 0:35:27.120 Just like one movie. 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:30.040 But I'm gonna tell you, yeah, venom Let there be carnage. 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:34.400 That is ninety minutes of pure entertainment. That piecing never stops. 0:35:34.560 --> 0:35:36.719 You know what's happening, you know who wins, you know 0:35:36.760 --> 0:35:39.160 who loses. I will tell you guys something if you 0:35:39.200 --> 0:35:42.080 haven't seen the Flash the first hour, there are no 0:35:42.239 --> 0:35:45.880 other main characters than two Ezra Miller's playing Barry Allen. 0:35:46.239 --> 0:35:50.200 It is an hour until Michael Keaton comes into the 0:35:50.239 --> 0:35:54.160 movie and then you meet Sasha kh and then there 0:35:54.200 --> 0:35:56.080 is a battle with Odd. I feel like the pacing 0:35:56.120 --> 0:35:58.960 in this movie does not It didn't work for me, 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:01.120 and there's Ooda is part of it. Now, I'm going 0:36:01.160 --> 0:36:03.399 to tell you the biggest issue I think with all 0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:06.640 of this, aside from the stuff we've talked about, CG. Ezra, 0:36:06.960 --> 0:36:10.759 the biggest issue is this is a flashpoint movie where 0:36:10.840 --> 0:36:12.840 over the years they have been told or they have 0:36:12.960 --> 0:36:16.600 chosen to not adapt Flashpoint, and that is the problem. 0:36:16.640 --> 0:36:17.919 There are multiple issues here. 0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:22.879 The Zodd battle, it basically becomes irrelevant because Barry has 0:36:22.920 --> 0:36:26.560 to come into conflict with his younger self, and then 0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:28.839 they have to go to the Cronabowl and have the 0:36:28.880 --> 0:36:31.440 real battle, which is between Barry and what they call 0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:35.160 Dark Flash, which is Barry's younger self who's been stuck 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:36.040 in the Crona Bowl. 0:36:36.320 --> 0:36:38.919 This is where I thought Grant Gustin would have loved 0:36:38.960 --> 0:36:39.320 to see it. 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:42.719 Yeah, But like the problem is, as we will talk 0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:46.560 about in the Flashpoint Omnibus, they miss the cyclical nature 0:36:46.640 --> 0:36:50.680 and the holistic story of the Flash. You cannot have 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:53.479 the Flash without the reverse Flash. There is a very 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:57.959 now quite infamous interview or quote from Andy Masha where 0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:01.120 somebody says, so, who killed Barry's mum And he says, well, 0:37:01.160 --> 0:37:02.759 I guess it was Reverse Flash. 0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:05.040 What do you mean you guessed? Like that doesn't make 0:37:05.040 --> 0:37:06.520 you call it it was reverse Flash. 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:08.800 That's what happens in the comics. But like in the movie, 0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:10.279 there is an ambiguity here. 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:12.520 They kind of do the reverse Flash thing in which 0:37:12.560 --> 0:37:14.320 they call it the Dark Flash. 0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:16.879 But it's like, but that's not who killed Barry's mom. 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:19.800 That's Young Flash who gets stuck in the speed Force. 0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:22.120 Right right, right. But I'm saying they kind of they 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:26.080 kind of do their version of the kills Barry's mom 0:37:26.360 --> 0:37:29.920 is that Dark Flash pushes Barry out of the example, 0:37:31.040 --> 0:37:35.520 causing him to enter the world in which Barry, who 0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:39.680 will become Dark Flash, gets his powers because that's the 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:41.239 world where no superheroes are. 0:37:41.320 --> 0:37:43.759 And that's kind of again, it's like this loose adaptation, 0:37:43.920 --> 0:37:47.840 whereas in Flashpoint you learn that Reverse Flash knocked Barry 0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:51.000 out of the Speed Force because he wanted to create 0:37:51.080 --> 0:37:53.239 himself into like a paradox that Barry would never be. 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:56.040 He needed to create himself, right, yeah, and he wanted 0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:57.879 and he wanted to create a paradox well where Barry 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:00.000 could never kill him and he could exist without Barry 0:38:00.160 --> 0:38:02.000 because he's never been able to exist without Barry. 0:38:02.280 --> 0:38:04.600 I felt like the lack. 0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:09.239 Of the easy linear storyline of Flashpoint, which is kind 0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:11.160 of this, it's a line, but it's a circle and 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:14.280 everything's connected. That to me was one of the weirdest things, 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:19.080 Like there's no conversation here about who the Reverse Flash is, 0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:21.200 why they want to kill Barry's mom. What that has 0:38:21.239 --> 0:38:24.000 to do with anything. We end up with this dark 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:26.600 you know, I hate that where the dark stuff is evil, 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:29.400 but we end up with dark Flash instead of reverse Flash, 0:38:29.440 --> 0:38:31.600 and that comes at the end, and they haven't really 0:38:31.640 --> 0:38:32.880 been a conflict throughout. 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:34.640 Zod doesn't get defeated. 0:38:34.880 --> 0:38:38.200 He just kills Supergirl and leaves, leaving him open, I guess, 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:40.640 to be a different villain. But I feel like that 0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:43.880 third act struggles from those choices to not just directly 0:38:43.920 --> 0:38:44.880 adapt Flashpoint. 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:47.160 I understand why they made a lot of these choices, 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:48.640 but I think one of the things that I think 0:38:48.719 --> 0:38:51.480 is really cool about Flashpoint the comic is that like 0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:55.080 it just drops Barry into a world where like his 0:38:55.160 --> 0:38:58.399 mom is alive, like he's just at work, and then 0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:00.359 his mom is there and he's like that's I think, 0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:04.799 did this is it? I thought that because I think 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:07.640 some of the heaviest lifting that this movie does is 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:13.120 the work to make you care about Barry's parents, And 0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:16.120 it's a lot of work in one movie, Like you 0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:20.600 don't see them previously, and I think from you know, 0:39:20.719 --> 0:39:23.160 your mileage may vary again, And I'm not a big 0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:27.320 time Hollywood writer, director, but I do think it would 0:39:27.320 --> 0:39:31.200 have been quicker and faster, sorry for the pun to 0:39:31.320 --> 0:39:34.280 just drop. Flash Flash wakes up and his mom's alive, 0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:36.920 and what the fuck is going on? What happened? And 0:39:36.960 --> 0:39:38.600 now he's got to try and figure it out. 0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:41.879 I think that is the best thing, because, as we'll 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:46.680 get into in Flashpoint, the biggest mystery, yeah in Flashpoint 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:49.000 is who is to blame for changing? 0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:51.520 How can this happen? And you assume it's. 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:53.920 Reverse Flash, and you get and you fight and you 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:57.400 Barry teams up with Thomas Wayne and they're fighting this 0:39:57.480 --> 0:39:59.680 great villain and then as this movie reveals in the 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:01.080 first fifteen. 0:40:00.680 --> 0:40:02.360 Minutes, it's Barry. 0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:06.240 And that was a huge game changing reveal that felt 0:40:06.640 --> 0:40:09.680 so shocking. And I think if this film had trusted 0:40:09.680 --> 0:40:13.200 the audience a bit more and allowed them to go 0:40:13.239 --> 0:40:16.600 on that journey, have that mystery, and have Barry have 0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:18.879 that realization, maybe even they would have wanted to blame 0:40:18.920 --> 0:40:21.560 it on Dark Flash instead of Barry. I think there's 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:23.839 a version of that that would have worked. I think 0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:27.040 the half flash point of it all is part of 0:40:27.080 --> 0:40:29.319 why it didn't necessarily connect. I saw a lot of 0:40:29.320 --> 0:40:32.040 people online who didn't understand why Thomas Wayne wasn't in it, 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:37.120 who didn't understand why the Aquaman and Wonder Woman's storylines 0:40:37.200 --> 0:40:40.480 weren't even like vaguely adapted from the comic. I think 0:40:40.520 --> 0:40:44.520 that the legend of it being a Flashpoint adaptation had 0:40:44.560 --> 0:40:46.160 lived longer than the reality. 0:40:46.480 --> 0:40:49.600 Yeah. I do think very clearly there was you know, 0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:54.120 Ray Fisher, who's had his own issues with especially within 0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:57.120 the Warner brother studios, within the Warner Brothers studio system, 0:40:57.719 --> 0:41:00.200 was supposed to be in this. Cyborg has a is 0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:02.439 a pretty big part in the Flashpoint comic. We won't 0:41:02.440 --> 0:41:04.239 spoil that for you. We're gonna talk about that later. 0:41:05.040 --> 0:41:08.320 But my sense was there was a very clear direction 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:13.080 to move away from the Snyder verse as briskly as 0:41:13.239 --> 0:41:18.440 possible with this film. You know, once events in the 0:41:18.480 --> 0:41:22.800 wider Warner ecosystem happened with the you know, with Snyder 0:41:22.840 --> 0:41:26.160 moving on and the whole Snyder cut thing happening and 0:41:26.200 --> 0:41:29.600 fishing all out. So I think, you know, again, here's 0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:31.840 the real world intruding on the stuff you see on 0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:35.040 the screen. The reason they're not in it is because 0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:37.520 it's unclear like how much of that stuff is going 0:41:37.600 --> 0:41:39.320 to carry over into what James Gunn is doing. 0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:39.759 Yeah. 0:41:39.800 --> 0:41:40.919 I think that's a really good point. 0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:42.600 And I guess like as we come to kind of 0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:46.000 the end of the movie, which we haven't really talked about, 0:41:46.000 --> 0:41:48.399 the big thing that everyone was talking about, that kind 0:41:48.400 --> 0:41:52.960 of comes into it even more because originally from the 0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:56.720 reporting that has come out, and the original ending would 0:41:56.719 --> 0:42:00.560 have seen Barry fix the speed Force, fix the time line, 0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:06.479 and at the end, Michael Keaton's Batman and Sasha Carl 0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:09.960 would have been there, and that would have shown that 0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:12.319 Barry thought he fixed it, but actually he didn't, which 0:42:12.360 --> 0:42:14.279 is what happens in the flashpoint comic leading to the 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:16.560 you know, the New fifty two, and that would have 0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:19.880 shown that those characters would have continued on. And apparently 0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:22.839 there was also a version. Boris kitt the Hollywood Report 0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:25.000 did a great report on the three different endings. There 0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:27.400 was also going to be a version where Carville was 0:42:27.440 --> 0:42:29.520 going to be there with them, and Gal Gadot was 0:42:29.560 --> 0:42:30.920 going to be there with them, and that would have 0:42:30.920 --> 0:42:33.680 been well, Carvill's coming back. We saw him in Black Adam, 0:42:33.719 --> 0:42:35.000 and he's going to be back, and we're going to 0:42:35.080 --> 0:42:37.720 have this combined universe where they're going to introduce people 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:40.960 like Keaton, but we'll still have that Justice League that 0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:44.320 we know. And then the ending that we get instead 0:42:45.000 --> 0:42:47.640 has George Clooney step out of the car, which is 0:42:47.760 --> 0:42:50.040 really fun and I you know, I'm a big fan 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:52.759 of that, but that was for film six months ago 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:56.279 and was very much under the James Gun regime. So 0:42:56.400 --> 0:43:00.399 that kind of really I think confirms what you're saying. Also, 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:03.239 so the big thing we haven't talked about which absolutely 0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:04.799 did not work for me, and I actually have quite 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:07.799 some moral issues with how'd you feel about those cameos 0:43:08.080 --> 0:43:10.440 which ones in the chronobol. 0:43:10.239 --> 0:43:13.759 Oh so including so okay, yeah, so we get okay, 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:17.279 good point. Actually we get which woods. So we get 0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:18.240 wonder Woman Galgano. 0:43:18.400 --> 0:43:20.439 Yeah, she comes, she helps the very brief we also 0:43:20.440 --> 0:43:24.360 get to Mura Morrison's Tom Curry. We see him on 0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:27.240 the phone and in that world Arthur was never born, 0:43:27.280 --> 0:43:29.840 which is very interesting. It ties into the final. 0:43:30.040 --> 0:43:31.480 Stingers of the movie. 0:43:31.640 --> 0:43:35.800 But in the Speed Force we as Dark Flash is 0:43:35.880 --> 0:43:38.759 running around, they kind of do a cataclysm esque thing. 0:43:39.000 --> 0:43:41.719 They do an a normally esque thing from spite of us, 0:43:42.040 --> 0:43:44.959 and it's in the Chrono Bawl. Verry is seeing all 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:47.640 these different worlds Now is really getting to like look 0:43:47.680 --> 0:43:48.280 into the world. 0:43:48.320 --> 0:43:50.000 I guess they don't really explain it, but it looks 0:43:50.040 --> 0:43:52.359 like they're all going to collide into each other because 0:43:52.400 --> 0:43:54.160 of dark Flash running through the speed force. 0:43:54.280 --> 0:43:56.160 Sure, but this is where you get. 0:43:56.000 --> 0:43:58.600 Those big cameos that they'd kind of been hyping up 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:00.960 that they were definitely leaking. We were hearing people talk 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:04.480 about from the previous greetings and they're all like deep 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:09.040 fake nightmares in my opinion, including some that are literally 0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:12.879 like necromancy from. 0:44:12.400 --> 0:44:16.000 Oh, from bringing back from the day Now. Yeah, this 0:44:16.160 --> 0:44:19.200 is a larger issue that is moral issues. This is 0:44:19.239 --> 0:44:21.200 a larger moral issue that's going to become ever more 0:44:21.239 --> 0:44:25.880 present with the evolution of technology like mid Journey and 0:44:25.960 --> 0:44:30.240 the ability to like bring formally deceased actors back using 0:44:30.320 --> 0:44:32.680 their likeness. We've seen it, you know, in Rogue one 0:44:32.920 --> 0:44:37.239 with talking and we've seen it in commercials. I think 0:44:37.280 --> 0:44:40.720 that this is an issue of obviously like evolving law, 0:44:41.520 --> 0:44:45.239 And here's my issue with it. I think today, if 0:44:45.280 --> 0:44:47.799 I was an actor today and I was signing contracts 0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:50.480 and I like getting all the protections for my image 0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:54.279 and likeness, then I'd feel protected on that legal front 0:44:54.320 --> 0:44:56.920 and then I'd have a conversation with my family the 0:44:57.160 --> 0:45:01.399 aka the estate where I'd say, hey, I'm okay with this. 0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:04.879 Here is what I want for the future. I either 0:45:05.000 --> 0:45:07.960 want or don't want my likeness used for this, that 0:45:08.040 --> 0:45:11.880 and the other, and that's I think that that is 0:45:12.239 --> 0:45:14.759 probably gonna be standard and is something that's fine. I 0:45:14.840 --> 0:45:18.480 do have an issue with actors who passed away decades ago, 0:45:18.800 --> 0:45:22.879 had no idea about this technology, and who now are 0:45:23.040 --> 0:45:27.800 being you know, resuscitated onto the screen in a project 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:30.279 that they could not have even en vision. Now. I 0:45:30.280 --> 0:45:32.880 guess there's an upside in which, you know, the family 0:45:33.239 --> 0:45:36.320 has a nice payday, I guess hopefully, but it feels 0:45:36.480 --> 0:45:39.200 off to me. It does feel weird because consent of 0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:41.560 the person should matter. Yeah, I think as well. 0:45:41.600 --> 0:45:44.240 I think the reason that people have reacted so badly 0:45:44.280 --> 0:45:46.120 to it online, and I think the reason that it 0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:48.759 didn't sit well with me is one. So the way 0:45:48.800 --> 0:45:51.400 that they showcase them right is almost like a like 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.600 a movie reel, and it kind of like a like 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:57.040 a film reel going around a world visually like whatever. 0:45:57.400 --> 0:46:00.360 But you know what, you could have just used lips 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:01.960 from the show from the originales. 0:46:02.000 --> 0:46:03.320 I think that would have worked. 0:46:03.840 --> 0:46:07.319 You know, Adam Western, butt Ward, they loved their roles 0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:09.279 in Batman. That was something they were so proud of. 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:11.239 So in that way, I feel like that kind of 0:46:11.280 --> 0:46:14.560 sits quite well. But as people online were pointing out, 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:17.040 you know, George Reeves, who you see, as you know, 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:21.960 he played Cereals, he killed himself And one of the 0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:24.120 reasons that he killed himself was from the way that 0:46:24.160 --> 0:46:26.120 people report about it nowadays, was because he was so 0:46:26.160 --> 0:46:30.120 depressed about being typecast as Superman, and the movie was 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:33.439 released on the anniversary of his suicide. According to many 0:46:33.480 --> 0:46:35.520 angry people on the internet. 0:46:35.120 --> 0:46:37.640 Now, George Reeves played by Ben Affleck in the movie 0:46:37.680 --> 0:46:40.160 Hollywood Land about yeah, this. 0:46:39.880 --> 0:46:43.400 This kind of story, you know, And of course Warner 0:46:43.400 --> 0:46:46.120 Brothers did not drop the movie on that day to 0:46:46.200 --> 0:46:48.080 do something cruel to George Reeves. 0:46:47.719 --> 0:46:51.440 But there is a lack of thought there that to. 0:46:51.480 --> 0:46:54.440 People who care about that actor, who care about that story, 0:46:54.480 --> 0:46:58.680 it felt very cruel. Also, the one that I thought 0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:02.240 was quite shocking to me was to see them CG. 0:47:02.480 --> 0:47:06.120 Christopher Reeves as Superman, and not only cghim, but CG. 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:09.680 Him's standing up now Christopher Reeves after he was paralyzed, 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:15.240 became a very big advocate for disability rights, people used wheelchairs, 0:47:15.840 --> 0:47:18.640 and he even had a cameo in Smallville where they 0:47:18.680 --> 0:47:21.799 had him with his breathing tube in the wheelchair because 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:24.000 he wanted to be represented that way. And quite a 0:47:24.040 --> 0:47:26.520 few people online have pointed out that he, while he 0:47:26.600 --> 0:47:29.440 was alive, didn't want people to reuse odd footage of 0:47:29.480 --> 0:47:32.319 him when he wasn't paralyzed, because he wanted people to 0:47:32.320 --> 0:47:35.160 remember him how he was. I thought that was an 0:47:35.200 --> 0:47:38.200 example of a lack of thought that went into this. 0:47:38.360 --> 0:47:41.239 Also Helen Slater, who played Supergirl in the much line 0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:45.960 but very fun Supergirl movie, She's still alive. Why wasn't 0:47:46.080 --> 0:47:50.920 she brought into the movie in some useful, impactful way, 0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:53.520 or even just seeing kind of sitting sipping a coffee 0:47:53.520 --> 0:47:56.160 in Metropolis at her age. There was a lack of 0:47:56.239 --> 0:47:59.280 humanity in those cameos. I felt like even Nick Cage, 0:47:59.280 --> 0:48:02.160 I love Nick k Superman lives one of the greatest, 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:06.000 never made me. Yes, I own photographs of Nick Cage 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:08.400 in that suit. I want to see that movie. I 0:48:08.520 --> 0:48:11.080 was so excited to hear he was gonna be in it. 0:48:11.120 --> 0:48:14.080 To me, I was shocked when I learned that they'd 0:48:14.080 --> 0:48:16.560 actually recreated the suit, as Andy Machette said, and they 0:48:16.600 --> 0:48:19.080 put him in it because he was so deaged, he 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:21.960 was so cg that I just assumed it was another 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:25.160 kind of deep fake version. It didn't feel like they 0:48:25.200 --> 0:48:27.279 had bought Nick Cage in and given him that role. 0:48:27.320 --> 0:48:29.920 So for me, the cameos were something where if the 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.440 joke turned me against the mental health joke kind of 0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:34.400 turned me against it by the end. Even if I 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:36.960 was kind of into some of the characters, those cameos 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:40.799 they left me feeling quite like, ugh, like they gave 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:42.960 me the itck, you know, like it was not a 0:48:43.000 --> 0:48:45.520 pleasant way to end the movie. Though obviously I love 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:47.960 George Clooney Batman, so thanks for that one. James gunn 0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:50.480 like when he came in, he was looking great, he 0:48:51.239 --> 0:48:51.640 was fun. 0:48:51.719 --> 0:48:54.160 I will say again, I do think that I don't 0:48:54.200 --> 0:48:56.319 know the issues, the legal issue. I'm sure they had 0:48:56.320 --> 0:48:58.880 to negotiate with somebody, but it does. They definitely did 0:48:58.960 --> 0:49:04.759 get apparent, they got family license. It still is. It's 0:49:04.840 --> 0:49:08.840 definitely weird. And I will say that you also didn't 0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:09.200 need it. 0:49:09.320 --> 0:49:09.960 You didn't need it. 0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:11.640 You didn't really need it in. 0:49:11.520 --> 0:49:15.040 The movie either. I didn't feel like there was a 0:49:15.080 --> 0:49:19.600 cataclysm or a multiversal collapse that was gonna happen where 0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:20.480 you needed to see it. 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:23.440 I feel like the intimacy that they created. 0:49:23.000 --> 0:49:25.320 In this smaller Yeah there was a z odd battle, 0:49:25.320 --> 0:49:27.279 but it wasn't a huge deal. But that story I know, 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:30.080 for you, for super producer Chris, like the things that 0:49:30.160 --> 0:49:32.720 hit was like Ezra and those emotion the emotional beats 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:36.360 that Barry had with his mum, you know the relationship 0:49:36.360 --> 0:49:40.120 between Batman and Barry ben Affleck as Batman getting to 0:49:40.120 --> 0:49:42.960 have this moment of saying, you need to explore this trauma. 0:49:43.000 --> 0:49:45.080 You need to not hide from it or run away 0:49:45.080 --> 0:49:48.719 from your past. The emotional intimate beats, that was what 0:49:48.760 --> 0:49:51.400 people cared about and what I saw people saying that 0:49:51.440 --> 0:49:53.600 they loved. I don't think you needed that. I think 0:49:53.680 --> 0:49:57.480 that to me reeks of like execs who saw No 0:49:57.520 --> 0:49:59.239 Way Home was successful and were like. 0:49:59.200 --> 0:49:59.799 We need that. 0:50:00.160 --> 0:50:04.040 Like it's so different to have a creepy, CGI deep 0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:06.000 fake of a dead pass and like looking over a 0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:09.319 universe and to have Andrew Garfield stepping through like a 0:50:09.360 --> 0:50:10.280 slingering pool. 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:13.680 Here's how I think something like that happens. And I 0:50:13.680 --> 0:50:15.880 can see the logic behind it, even if I disagree 0:50:15.960 --> 0:50:19.120 with the execution, and if an inclusion of course, of 0:50:19.120 --> 0:50:23.479 course in general, but I think the idea is, hey, 0:50:24.040 --> 0:50:28.960 we're Warner Brothers. We have this one hundred year legacy 0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:34.359 of film excellence, and as part of that, as part 0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:40.680 of our lineage, is over half a century of a 0:50:40.760 --> 0:50:46.040 relationship with these iconic DC characters that stretches all the 0:50:46.040 --> 0:50:49.640 way back to the days of George Reeves and and 0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:54.520 Christopher Reeves and et cetera. And why not highlight it's 0:50:54.640 --> 0:50:57.600 isn't it a way to show how actually we're different 0:50:57.600 --> 0:50:59.360 than Marvel. They're kind of like the new kids on 0:50:59.400 --> 0:51:02.359 the block at us. We go back to the to 0:51:02.400 --> 0:51:08.320 the forties with our you know, television executions of these characters, 0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:12.240 and it shows the breath in the history of Warner's 0:51:12.280 --> 0:51:15.160 relationship with DC comics. I think that that is the 0:51:15.320 --> 0:51:18.960 logic of it. I agree. Do I think that it 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:21.800 should have been here? Probably not. I again, it felt 0:51:21.960 --> 0:51:23.799 superfluous to me. I don't think. I don't think you 0:51:23.920 --> 0:51:24.359 needed it. 0:51:24.400 --> 0:51:26.840 You could have a moment where you're like showing a 0:51:27.000 --> 0:51:30.200 George Reeves Superman serial on the TV and then have 0:51:30.280 --> 0:51:33.000 ba Ben Affleck playing George Reeves talking to Barry like, 0:51:33.040 --> 0:51:34.960 there's different ways you can do it if you want 0:51:34.960 --> 0:51:37.160 to do it, but I don't, like you said when 0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:39.480 it happened, I actually had By that point, I was 0:51:39.520 --> 0:51:42.759 like watching the movie, right, so I wasn't waiting for 0:51:42.800 --> 0:51:44.440 the cameos, and when it happened, I was like, what 0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:45.520 happened to me? 0:51:46.200 --> 0:51:49.759 The big head scratch with that kind of cavalcade of 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:52.680 characters is like, where the fuck is Where's Wonder Woman? 0:51:52.719 --> 0:51:57.960 Where's Where's allegedly she got caught? Where's Linda Cars? I 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:01.680 think why that was like a long running three seasons. 0:52:01.680 --> 0:52:05.040 I think a television show that was a big deal. 0:52:05.360 --> 0:52:08.200 And she was in Wonder Woman recently in the Wonder 0:52:08.239 --> 0:52:10.720 Woman too at the end, and she's still looking banging. 0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:11.959 She's still an icon. 0:52:12.120 --> 0:52:15.799 I'm very very bizarre to not have Wonder Woman in there. 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:18.359 She's another person who I feel like could have shown 0:52:18.480 --> 0:52:22.000 up in person. You could put her in that suit. Nowadays, 0:52:22.160 --> 0:52:24.839 I've seen Linda Carr. She's still beautiful, like you could 0:52:24.880 --> 0:52:27.000 have had her there. Linda Carr is kind of like 0:52:27.040 --> 0:52:30.400 the no brainer, right, like even like I'm not gonna 0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:32.680 I'm not gonna be like, oh my god, they forgot 0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:35.960 George Reeves, but I am certainly like, where's Linda Carter? 0:52:36.360 --> 0:52:39.080 They still show every single week if you live in 0:52:39.200 --> 0:52:40.800 LA if you have a broadcast down tenor if you 0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:41.600 don't have one, get one. 0:52:41.640 --> 0:52:42.080 They're great. 0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:45.840 Get amplified on tenor it's like thirty dollars Every Saturday morning. 0:52:46.320 --> 0:52:49.920 On Heroes and Icons they show and two episodes of 0:52:50.000 --> 0:52:54.200 Bama sixty six and then they show episodes of Wonder 0:52:54.239 --> 0:52:55.800 Woman that still plays. 0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:57.120 People still watch that. 0:52:57.239 --> 0:53:01.000 Linda Carr is one of the most icon conic superhero 0:53:01.080 --> 0:53:03.080 actors of all time, so I agree that felt like 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:08.759 a strange person to not include. Maybe Lindkarr didn't want 0:53:08.760 --> 0:53:11.040 to be a cged up like that. She might not 0:53:11.080 --> 0:53:13.200 want it to be daged. Who knows got it in. 0:53:13.480 --> 0:53:15.640 Would have been nice to see her. Hopefully we'll see 0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:16.080 her again. 0:53:16.640 --> 0:53:20.799 Why your final takeaways from the Flash? Now you've seen it, 0:53:20.800 --> 0:53:23.040 it's done, it's come out. It didn't make a lot 0:53:23.040 --> 0:53:24.560 of money. We didn't talk about that. 0:53:24.760 --> 0:53:28.839 Yeah, it's like a very very average superhero film. Yes, 0:53:29.040 --> 0:53:32.120 there are some things as surprised at, like how some 0:53:32.200 --> 0:53:35.359 of the emotional beats really worked, you know, Barry and 0:53:35.560 --> 0:53:41.360 Bruce is fun. There are really fun moments there. I 0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:45.880 thought that the face off with Zod. I thought Sasha's 0:53:46.000 --> 0:53:52.719 embodiment of Supergirl mm hmm it felt emotionally rich for 0:53:52.880 --> 0:53:56.120 how little of that is in the film. Mm hm. 0:53:56.680 --> 0:53:58.480 It was doing a lot with a little and really 0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:00.360 this is what really made me feel like, you know, 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:03.880 we could have gone faster with the exposition about Barry's 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:06.439 mom and family life. You could have just dropped into 0:54:06.480 --> 0:54:08.800 there and just like, got it. Your mom was murdered. 0:54:08.840 --> 0:54:12.200 We all understand like that that would be traumatic and 0:54:12.280 --> 0:54:16.439 otherwise like a middling film that was entertaining. I didn't 0:54:16.440 --> 0:54:18.480 feel bad that I saw it in the theater that 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:22.759 I think will be We will quickly move on from this. 0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:25.640 This is a closing of the chapter of this particular 0:54:25.680 --> 0:54:30.080 page of the of the DC Universe, so that the 0:54:30.160 --> 0:54:34.040 James Gunn universe can be born. It was fine, Yeah, 0:54:34.400 --> 0:54:37.640 better than Black Adam. I agree. I like that, that's 0:54:37.680 --> 0:54:39.480 like your baseline. It did. 0:54:39.520 --> 0:54:43.359 I will say it did make twelve million dollars less 0:54:43.360 --> 0:54:45.240 in its opening weekend than Black Adam. 0:54:45.640 --> 0:54:47.080 Think of that what you will. I think that. 0:54:47.160 --> 0:54:51.239 Speaks to the way that people don't necessarily think that 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:53.319 this will have much of an impact because we have 0:54:53.440 --> 0:54:56.319 this new universe. I will say my biggest takeaway is 0:54:56.640 --> 0:54:58.600 I can't wait for Blue Beetle to come out. I'm 0:54:58.680 --> 0:55:03.200 very excited that James Gun has confirmed that, you know, 0:55:03.320 --> 0:55:06.120 Hime Rays will be the first official character in his 0:55:06.440 --> 0:55:09.600 new DCU. So I really hope that people get excited 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:11.400 to go and see that movie. I can't wait to 0:55:11.440 --> 0:55:14.560 see it. I'm excited to see a new generation of 0:55:14.600 --> 0:55:17.800 heroes leaning more into the comic books. 0:55:17.880 --> 0:55:22.280 I'm excited about all these Superman rumors that we're hearing. 0:55:22.400 --> 0:55:24.279 Boris Kit shed some really fun ones. 0:55:24.320 --> 0:55:26.560 I would love to see Emma McKay as Lois Lane. 0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:30.160 I think David corn Sweat would be a sick Clark Kent. 0:55:30.239 --> 0:55:33.080 He looks literally like him. Like you know what, I'm 0:55:33.120 --> 0:55:35.600 excited to be excited about these movies again, and I 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:39.080 feel like the Flash is that endpoint. I love that 0:55:39.160 --> 0:55:41.680 it's connected. I had so many people DM me about 0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:43.600 this movie after they saw it and say I loved it, 0:55:43.640 --> 0:55:45.799 I hated it, you know, I didn't feel any way 0:55:45.840 --> 0:55:47.960 about it. We always say this if you love a 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:50.160 comic book movie. I'm just happy that these movies are 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:53.359 connecting with you. Go out read the comics, find out 0:55:53.360 --> 0:55:57.319 what inspired is the thing? An influential one, very influential. 0:55:57.320 --> 0:56:00.520 You're actually gonna be if you like Spider Us. The 0:56:00.680 --> 0:56:03.759 moment that we start our flashpoint omnibus, you guys are 0:56:03.840 --> 0:56:04.720 gonna be laughing. 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:08.719 Yeah, because the way this stuff is so cyclical. There 0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:09.600 is a word that. 0:56:09.600 --> 0:56:12.759 I will say many times in my flashpoint omnibus, and 0:56:12.800 --> 0:56:15.000 you guys will realize how much all of these stories 0:56:15.040 --> 0:56:18.040 live and breathe and learn and take from each other. 0:56:18.239 --> 0:56:20.120 But yeah, I agree with you. I think you summed 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:21.799 it up perfectly. And I just can't wait to see 0:56:21.800 --> 0:56:22.279 what's next. 0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:24.320 I'm ready. I'm ready for August. I'm ready to be 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:27.160 excited about DC. Should we briefly talk about the Arthur 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:29.120 Curry cameo and what that means? 0:56:29.480 --> 0:56:32.640 Yes, I think it is worth talking about. So at 0:56:32.640 --> 0:56:34.319 the end of the movie, if you wait right till 0:56:34.320 --> 0:56:36.480 the end, there is one post credit scene. Now, a 0:56:36.480 --> 0:56:38.160 lot of people have said it wasn't worth waiting for. 0:56:38.200 --> 0:56:41.640 It's just Jason Momoa and Barry and they're kind of 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:45.200 like messing around, and Arthur Curry is very drunk as always, 0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:48.319 and he's kind of like in Central City and he's he's, 0:56:48.400 --> 0:56:51.160 you know, not feeling too great and everything, and he 0:56:51.280 --> 0:56:54.480 sort of falls into a puddle. But I actually think 0:56:54.520 --> 0:56:56.839 this is a very important bit of law that they 0:56:56.880 --> 0:57:01.640 set up. Barry tells Arthur, in every universe I go to, 0:57:01.719 --> 0:57:04.520 in every timeline and every version of the Speed Force 0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:06.759 the world that the Speed Force takes me to, you 0:57:06.880 --> 0:57:11.200 are always you. Barry says, I've seen other people it 0:57:11.239 --> 0:57:13.480 was Bruce, but it wasn't Bruce. He was a different Bruce. 0:57:13.520 --> 0:57:14.240 I've been to these. 0:57:14.080 --> 0:57:18.760 Different places, and Bruce is always a different person. Superman 0:57:18.760 --> 0:57:22.560 didn't exist, Supergirl was there. But in every universe or 0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:27.520 multiverseal timeline that Barry goes to, Arthur is always Arthur 0:57:27.560 --> 0:57:30.480 AKA Arthur is always Jason Momoa. Now I think that's 0:57:30.600 --> 0:57:34.320 very smart because as much as everybody maligned Aquaman. 0:57:34.400 --> 0:57:34.920 It's great. 0:57:35.160 --> 0:57:38.960 Sorry guys, that movie is still the most profitable DC 0:57:39.080 --> 0:57:42.959 movie of all time, and Aquaman two is coming out 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:45.880 at the end of the year. James Gunn has already 0:57:45.880 --> 0:57:48.840 said it counts as part of the DCU, and if 0:57:48.840 --> 0:57:50.880 that movie makes a billion dollars, they don't want to 0:57:50.920 --> 0:57:53.840 have to cast Aquaman with a different actor. So I 0:57:53.840 --> 0:57:56.680 think this essentially establishes the idea that if they want 0:57:56.760 --> 0:58:01.280 Jason to be in the DCU new DCU as it 0:58:01.360 --> 0:58:06.240 exists in the James gunnerverse, they have essentially established law 0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:08.120 here that he could come back. 0:58:08.160 --> 0:58:11.800 That's right, that's right. Yeah. Up next, a return to 0:58:11.840 --> 0:58:16.000 the Omnibus to discuss the comics origins of the Flash 0:58:16.040 --> 0:58:16.880 movie Flashpoint. 0:58:39.960 --> 0:58:42.960 Welcome to another chapter in the Omnibus where law, analysis 0:58:43.000 --> 0:58:49.080 and understanding come together. This week it's Flashpoint. We're doing it. 0:58:50.080 --> 0:58:57.640 We're talking about the absolutely groundbreaking influential. I would say 0:58:57.680 --> 0:58:58.560 it's a crisis. 0:58:58.720 --> 0:59:01.440 Yeah. It was almost like an anti crisis. It was 0:59:01.800 --> 0:59:02.560 exploding a. 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:05.520 Universe out and bringing it back in all in one. 0:59:06.280 --> 0:59:11.240 And of course, like every comic book event, Flashpoint didn't 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:15.640 begin or end with number one, you know, it began 0:59:15.760 --> 0:59:20.200 with many. There was a road to Flashpoint where Jeff John, 0:59:20.280 --> 0:59:23.360 Scott Collins and Francis Mannipold detailed the battle between the 0:59:23.360 --> 0:59:26.800 Flash and the Reverse Flash and kind of established a 0:59:26.880 --> 0:59:30.080 context for the scope of the world changing event which 0:59:30.120 --> 0:59:34.160 featured you know, bar Allen, and it featured a futuristic 0:59:34.280 --> 0:59:36.720 version of Barry Allen who came to stop what he 0:59:36.840 --> 0:59:41.440 called an anomaly, and the anomaly was a different version 0:59:41.760 --> 0:59:44.080 of the Flash who wasn't supposed to be in that timeline. 0:59:44.120 --> 0:59:46.280 And if you have seen Spider Man into the Spider Verse, 0:59:46.480 --> 0:59:52.080 that will sound familiar. So the mini series essentially ends 0:59:52.200 --> 0:59:56.680 on the anniversary of Barry's mum's death, and it's this 0:59:56.800 --> 0:59:59.600 really sad moment and Barry promises his mum that soon 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:04.840 everything thing will change, and then enter Flashpoint, which changes 1:00:04.880 --> 1:00:07.280 the DC universe forever. Before we really get and talk 1:00:07.280 --> 1:00:10.760 about Flashpoint, Jason, where were you the first time? Oh gosh, like, 1:00:10.800 --> 1:00:12.760 what's your first memory of reading Flashpoint? 1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:16.120 It was like only maybe four years ago or so. 1:00:16.800 --> 1:00:18.720 I don't keep up on the day to day, week 1:00:18.760 --> 1:00:21.200 to week with DC, but I always pick up like 1:00:21.360 --> 1:00:25.320 the big events, yeah, crisis, some of the New fifty 1:00:25.360 --> 1:00:28.360 two stuff. Flashpoint was obviously a big one of them, 1:00:28.440 --> 1:00:31.440 any of the kind of big Batman crossovers. Because I 1:00:31.480 --> 1:00:34.080 read mostly DC through trades, so it was a few 1:00:34.120 --> 1:00:36.600 years ago, and it was fun. The Flashes character who 1:00:36.640 --> 1:00:42.120 I heavily Batman centric and Superman centric, and when I 1:00:42.200 --> 1:00:46.280 read DC, so I hadn't read much Flash and it 1:00:46.360 --> 1:00:48.880 was fun. Yeah, it was fun to get to get into. 1:00:49.240 --> 1:00:50.880 For me, it was I read it in the comic 1:00:50.920 --> 1:00:53.200 shop where I worked. There was a lot of quiet 1:00:53.280 --> 1:00:55.760 afternoons sometimes there you'd be there on a you know, 1:00:56.160 --> 1:00:59.640 a Thursday or a Friday in the early afternoon. I 1:00:59.680 --> 1:01:02.520 read the whole thing in a trade. I was reading 1:01:02.520 --> 1:01:04.480 a lot of DC back then, catching up on a 1:01:04.480 --> 1:01:06.600 lot of stuff I hadn't really read or kept up with. 1:01:06.800 --> 1:01:09.160 And yeah, I remember it was just like a blockbuster 1:01:09.240 --> 1:01:11.800 kind of popcorn book. Yeah, you know, And it's really 1:01:11.800 --> 1:01:15.000 fun in the context of other crisises, of this tradition 1:01:15.160 --> 1:01:20.680 that DC has of streamlining their multiple universes, the kind 1:01:20.680 --> 1:01:24.520 of sprawling canon that is created when you have hundreds 1:01:24.560 --> 1:01:26.640 and thousands of people writing. 1:01:26.280 --> 1:01:27.720 Books over eighty years. 1:01:27.800 --> 1:01:30.280 So yeah, it's a very fun, interesting book, and I'm 1:01:30.280 --> 1:01:34.520 not surprised that it is such a legendary title in 1:01:34.600 --> 1:01:37.280 comic books and also DC fans in general. I think 1:01:37.640 --> 1:01:39.960 just love this book, and I understand why some of 1:01:39.960 --> 1:01:43.280 them were disappointed that Flash wasn't more directly Flashpoint, but 1:01:43.360 --> 1:01:47.000 it's really interesting. It's an era defining event. Geoff John's 1:01:47.040 --> 1:01:47.400 wrote it. 1:01:47.520 --> 1:01:48.280 The main series. 1:01:48.280 --> 1:01:51.240 Once you get into Flashpoint, Geff John's the writer Adam 1:01:51.280 --> 1:01:54.560 Kubert penciled it. Legend Sandra Hope and Jesse Delpadang were 1:01:54.560 --> 1:01:57.840 the incas Alex Sinclair colorist and Nick Napolitano on letters 1:01:58.120 --> 1:02:01.720 and It. Essentially, while fans didn't realize it at the time, 1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:05.600 its purpose was to reset the DC universe. Barry, as 1:02:05.600 --> 1:02:08.160 you pointed out when we were talking about the Flash movie, 1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:11.360 Barry wakes up at his desk and everything seems normal. 1:02:11.400 --> 1:02:13.760 He's been doing a long night of criminal forensics as 1:02:13.760 --> 1:02:16.960 he does, and he discovers that when he wakes up, 1:02:17.000 --> 1:02:20.160 he's apparently in a different universe. They're talking about villains 1:02:20.200 --> 1:02:23.120 he's never heard of. Superman doesn't exist. Cyborg is the 1:02:23.160 --> 1:02:27.080 world's most famous hero, a Superman level hero. There's no 1:02:27.320 --> 1:02:30.200 Justice League, and as he finds out when he falls 1:02:30.200 --> 1:02:32.240 down the stairs within the first pages of the book, 1:02:32.400 --> 1:02:33.720 he no longer has his powers. 1:02:33.760 --> 1:02:37.400 Oh oh ah, oh no ring, no suit, no powers. 1:02:37.880 --> 1:02:40.040 And just when things seem like they're getting really bad, 1:02:40.800 --> 1:02:44.800 something wonderful happens and he bumps into his mum. Norah 1:02:44.800 --> 1:02:47.640 Alan alive and in the flesh. She is no longer 1:02:47.680 --> 1:02:48.800 dead in this universe. 1:02:49.120 --> 1:02:49.880 She is alive. 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:52.120 She's here and She's come to see Barry. It's her birthday. 1:02:52.160 --> 1:02:54.400 She wants to go for dinner with her son. Where's 1:02:54.400 --> 1:02:54.880 his dad? 1:02:55.320 --> 1:02:56.280 No longer in prison? 1:02:56.320 --> 1:02:58.920 No longer died in prison depending on the cannon, he 1:02:58.960 --> 1:03:01.720 did sadly pass away three years ago from a heart attack. 1:03:01.800 --> 1:03:04.760 But they lived a happy life. And Barry is reeling. 1:03:05.600 --> 1:03:09.840 But there's one familiarity, and that's at least one of 1:03:09.920 --> 1:03:13.360 DC's trinity is still around. Nora. No, she doesn't know Superman, 1:03:13.480 --> 1:03:16.200 she doesn't know Wonder Woman. Well she might, but in 1:03:16.240 --> 1:03:19.440 a different way. But she does know Batman. Everybody knows Batman. 1:03:20.000 --> 1:03:23.120 But and I will say this is light spoiler territory, 1:03:23.160 --> 1:03:24.640 but I also feel like it's one of the most 1:03:24.680 --> 1:03:26.880 famous things that this comic does, So we'll talk about 1:03:26.880 --> 1:03:30.600 it a little bit. Batman is not the Batman that 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:33.400 fans know and love here and know to you know, 1:03:33.680 --> 1:03:36.400 love to critique lovingly about his bad politics. 1:03:36.680 --> 1:03:39.760 This is one of the cool, real cool shocks of 1:03:39.960 --> 1:03:41.720 flash Point Yeah flashes. 1:03:41.760 --> 1:03:44.040 At this point, he is reeling he's in this new world, 1:03:44.040 --> 1:03:46.320 but at least he knows Bruce. So he goes to 1:03:46.400 --> 1:03:50.920 the epic gothic calls of you know, weigh and manner, 1:03:50.960 --> 1:03:54.080 and we see this they directly adapt that scene when 1:03:54.240 --> 1:03:57.600 in the Flash and he gets there and he's calling 1:03:57.600 --> 1:04:02.240 for Bruce, but Bruce isn't there because in this timeline, 1:04:02.280 --> 1:04:04.800 as we will find out, Bruce was killed along with Martha, 1:04:04.880 --> 1:04:07.400 and it was Thomas Wayne who survived. And because he 1:04:07.480 --> 1:04:10.040 lost his wife and his son, he becomes a batman 1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:13.360 who kills. He becomes a batman who is vengeful. As 1:04:13.400 --> 1:04:15.680 he meets Barry, he almost breaks his arm. He uses 1:04:16.200 --> 1:04:19.400 small joint manipulation to try and get information out of him. 1:04:19.440 --> 1:04:24.360 He is a brutal and violent man devastated by the 1:04:24.400 --> 1:04:28.480 death of his family. And as we learn through a 1:04:28.560 --> 1:04:33.120 kind of back to the Future esque situation, yes, Barry 1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:37.600 comes to realize while talking to Thomas that he is 1:04:37.720 --> 1:04:41.000 actually in his own world. He is not in a 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:45.280 different universe. It's just that someone has changed the timeline. 1:04:45.360 --> 1:04:48.400 So all of these things are happening to Barry in 1:04:48.520 --> 1:04:51.720 his universe, and if he doesn't change them, he'll lose 1:04:51.760 --> 1:04:54.960 his memories, he'll lose the real timeline that he lived in, 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:57.080 and he will never have his powers of the Flash. 1:04:57.120 --> 1:04:59.800 And that's kind of the big battle that we have 1:04:59.840 --> 1:05:02.080 to see him go on here, and it is just 1:05:02.200 --> 1:05:07.120 like a really interesting, bombastic book. And as you pointed 1:05:07.160 --> 1:05:09.120 out when we were talking about the movie, one of 1:05:09.120 --> 1:05:11.320 the coolest things about this is you do not find 1:05:11.360 --> 1:05:14.600 out the big reveal of this book until, like, you know, 1:05:14.680 --> 1:05:16.080 the fourth or fifth issue. 1:05:16.080 --> 1:05:19.520 This is a mystery. We see all these different call 1:05:19.640 --> 1:05:20.840 versions in this world. 1:05:20.960 --> 1:05:23.840 Aquaman and Wonder Woman are kind of warlords, and their 1:05:24.040 --> 1:05:28.080 battle against each other has caused this huge chaotic issue 1:05:28.120 --> 1:05:31.760 within global politics. We get to see Lois Lane as 1:05:31.760 --> 1:05:34.840 a kind of roving reporter but also a spy. We 1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:37.320 get to see all these different fun versions. There's a 1:05:37.360 --> 1:05:40.680 really rad super team called the Resistance that are just 1:05:40.800 --> 1:05:44.400 totally out there. You know, it's like Grift, all these 1:05:44.440 --> 1:05:46.400 different kinds of people, Steve Trevor, you. 1:05:46.360 --> 1:05:47.680 Know, fighting Wonder Woman. 1:05:48.720 --> 1:05:50.880 I imagine that as a creator, this is like one 1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:53.640 of the most fun books that you can write, where 1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:58.480 you can essentially just completely turn upside down everything we 1:05:58.520 --> 1:06:01.160 know about canon and just put these you know, the 1:06:01.160 --> 1:06:02.880 toys that you get to play with, but you're putting 1:06:02.880 --> 1:06:04.920 them in totally different places on the chessboard. 1:06:05.480 --> 1:06:07.960 Yeah, it was really fun. I mean that's always been 1:06:08.120 --> 1:06:12.040 part of DC's DNA you know, m hm with these 1:06:12.080 --> 1:06:14.840 kind of like upside down yeah, yeah, you know, bizarre 1:06:14.840 --> 1:06:17.680 O Superman, these kind of like crazy versions. But this 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:20.360 was like a really unique take on it because it 1:06:20.400 --> 1:06:24.320 wasn't just like oh, wonder Woman's bad. There was like 1:06:24.360 --> 1:06:31.880 a real political reason that the Amazonians had seized the UK. Yeah, 1:06:32.000 --> 1:06:34.560 you know, there was like a wire war that while 1:06:34.640 --> 1:06:37.920 the main Flashpoint books don't really delve, they kind of 1:06:37.920 --> 1:06:40.280 like just touch on it. It's like background stuff. It 1:06:40.400 --> 1:06:43.160 is really interesting, Like I found myself being like, oh, 1:06:43.400 --> 1:06:45.560 I wonder what's going on there? That's really interesting. I'd 1:06:45.600 --> 1:06:47.520 like to know more about, like what's going on with that. 1:06:47.800 --> 1:06:49.680 Yeah, it's one of those events that actually makes you 1:06:49.720 --> 1:06:52.280 want to read all the one shots and the Yeah. 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:53.240 A lot of times that can. 1:06:53.160 --> 1:06:55.080 Be something we can plain about as comic book fans, 1:06:55.080 --> 1:06:58.680 like you'll be loving an ongoing series and six issues 1:06:58.680 --> 1:07:00.880 in suddenly you're just reading an issue that has nothing 1:07:00.920 --> 1:07:03.040 to do with anything in your book because it ties 1:07:03.080 --> 1:07:05.280 into a wider event. But this is one where if 1:07:05.320 --> 1:07:09.080 you read Flashpoint, you'll likely find that in to reading 1:07:09.120 --> 1:07:11.080 something else, to reading a one shot, to reading a 1:07:11.080 --> 1:07:12.160 mini that led into it. 1:07:12.560 --> 1:07:14.240 I think that if you're going to read this book, 1:07:14.360 --> 1:07:15.720 you don't have to read. 1:07:15.560 --> 1:07:18.640 All four Road to Flashpoint issues, which were in the 1:07:18.680 --> 1:07:21.840 main Flash. But I would say I believe that issue 1:07:21.880 --> 1:07:27.600 four is It's like Flash Issue twelve is the last part, 1:07:27.600 --> 1:07:30.720 and I would say definitely read that before you read Flashpoint. 1:07:30.760 --> 1:07:33.840 It makes everything make a lot more sense. But it's 1:07:34.120 --> 1:07:39.680 a really interesting, fun, weird take on the DCU, and 1:07:39.720 --> 1:07:43.040 you get this kind of like it's the ultimate what if? 1:07:43.400 --> 1:07:43.600 You know. 1:07:43.680 --> 1:07:46.480 We love those kind of stories because the real truth is, 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:48.600 even though it is not a major part of this story, 1:07:48.640 --> 1:07:51.840 and if you've seen the Flash, you will know what 1:07:51.920 --> 1:07:54.840 Superman's fate here is because they do this great I 1:07:54.880 --> 1:07:56.880 loved actually as something we didn't talk about. I thought 1:07:56.880 --> 1:07:59.080 it was really cool how they just did it with 1:07:59.160 --> 1:08:01.560 Kara instead of Cow the same storyline. 1:08:01.680 --> 1:08:03.840 Yeah, I thought that was great. I thought it actually 1:08:03.920 --> 1:08:06.440 kind of worked better, to be honest with you. It 1:08:06.480 --> 1:08:08.520 worked better in the movie than it did in the comic. 1:08:08.680 --> 1:08:10.160 It worked. It was really cool. 1:08:10.560 --> 1:08:13.600 Yeah, But something that is cool that I like, because look, 1:08:13.640 --> 1:08:15.920 there's a few Superman comics that I love, like Superman 1:08:15.960 --> 1:08:18.760 for All Seasons and All Star Superman and stuff like that. 1:08:18.760 --> 1:08:19.160 But it's not. 1:08:19.120 --> 1:08:22.400 Necessarily a character I have a deep investment in in 1:08:22.439 --> 1:08:24.200 the way I do with some of the other characters. 1:08:24.280 --> 1:08:26.639 He's a little bit too like he's the good boy, 1:08:26.680 --> 1:08:29.200 he's the center. But what I do love about Superman 1:08:29.280 --> 1:08:33.400 is is inherent goodness and the way that goodness spreads. 1:08:33.760 --> 1:08:36.719 And what I love is this is essentially the biggest 1:08:36.800 --> 1:08:39.880 what if of What if Superman never landed and wasn't 1:08:40.000 --> 1:08:44.360 raised by the Kents, What if Superman never got to. 1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:48.360 Be the good, blue eyed boy of the DC universe. 1:08:48.479 --> 1:08:50.240 This is what happens. It all goes to shit. 1:08:50.400 --> 1:08:53.240 You need Superman there, you need his goodness, otherwise you're 1:08:53.240 --> 1:08:57.840 gonna end up with these huge omnipient beings fighting each other, 1:08:57.960 --> 1:09:01.360 these global super gods. And I thought that was just 1:09:01.720 --> 1:09:04.799 I like that this book recognizes that, even though Superman 1:09:04.920 --> 1:09:08.000 is maybe in a few pages altogether. So I think 1:09:08.040 --> 1:09:11.240 it's really a very joyous read and it's a very 1:09:11.400 --> 1:09:13.920 much of its time book. Like if you read this, 1:09:13.960 --> 1:09:16.080 you feel like this book was made in twenty eleven. 1:09:16.360 --> 1:09:21.639 Tell us about how this leads into DC's line wide reboot, 1:09:21.680 --> 1:09:24.960 the New fifty two, which was you know, it's interesting 1:09:25.040 --> 1:09:29.240 how the Big two copy and are inspired by each 1:09:29.240 --> 1:09:32.479 other all the time. I think Marvel had just done 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:35.280 or was in the process of doing the Heroic Age 1:09:35.280 --> 1:09:37.360 at that time. I might be wrong about the name 1:09:37.400 --> 1:09:38.760 of it, but it was. They were also in the 1:09:38.760 --> 1:09:41.200 middle of the line wide reboots, so it was a 1:09:41.240 --> 1:09:45.679 perfect hey time to jump on at a clear starting 1:09:45.720 --> 1:09:48.000 point for these two comics companies. 1:09:48.160 --> 1:09:51.040 Yeah, and then Marvel saw the New fifty two and 1:09:51.080 --> 1:09:53.479 did Marvel Now in twenty twelve, which led to some 1:09:53.520 --> 1:09:54.640 of my favorite comics as well. 1:09:54.720 --> 1:09:56.760 Yeah. Okay, so this is really interesting. 1:09:57.160 --> 1:10:01.280 So the story ends in almost I feel like some 1:10:01.320 --> 1:10:03.800 may think it is abrupt, but there is essentially a 1:10:03.840 --> 1:10:05.800 double page spread near the end of the story that 1:10:05.920 --> 1:10:09.760 explains everything. This is the purpose of this book. This 1:10:09.960 --> 1:10:15.200 is the reason that Flashpoint exists. After a huge epic 1:10:15.280 --> 1:10:18.240 battle where some lives are lost and some people survive, 1:10:18.360 --> 1:10:24.120 Barry is inspired to go back in time and fix 1:10:24.160 --> 1:10:26.679 the mistake that he made, which, just like in the movie, 1:10:27.080 --> 1:10:29.320 is that he tried to save his mum. So he 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:32.800 goes into the speed Force, and instead of finding the Cronable, 1:10:32.880 --> 1:10:38.040 he sees the hooded visage of Pandora, and he sees 1:10:38.120 --> 1:10:41.200 three different versions of the most famous superheroes from DC, 1:10:42.160 --> 1:10:47.320 and he learns that he can't just go back into 1:10:47.320 --> 1:10:49.960 the speed Force and fix it because there's three timelines. 1:10:50.000 --> 1:10:53.280 There's not one timeline, and Pandora reveals and this is 1:10:53.400 --> 1:10:56.840 very twenty eleven because everything's changed since then. But at 1:10:56.880 --> 1:11:00.200 some point in the past, the DC universe had been 1:11:00.200 --> 1:11:03.439 split into three timelines. DC's New Earth, which is what 1:11:03.479 --> 1:11:06.920 we knew is the main DC timeline, Earth thirteen, which 1:11:06.920 --> 1:11:09.280 at the time was basically seen as Vertigo but is 1:11:09.320 --> 1:11:12.920 now understood to be Occult Earth with characters like Etragan 1:11:13.000 --> 1:11:17.400 and then supernatural characters like Sandman and Vertigo characters like 1:11:17.439 --> 1:11:21.519 hell Blazer and Constantine. And fifty which is the wild 1:11:21.560 --> 1:11:24.720 Storm Universe, which we now know is coming really full 1:11:24.760 --> 1:11:27.519 force back into DC. So to fix his past choice, 1:11:27.560 --> 1:11:31.120 Barry has to essentially create a singular timeline. The time 1:11:31.160 --> 1:11:35.559 for three timelines has passed, the singular timeline is going forwards, 1:11:35.800 --> 1:11:38.600 and the book ends with Barry delivering a letter to 1:11:38.720 --> 1:11:41.200 Bruce from his father Thomas, and it seems like nothing 1:11:41.200 --> 1:11:45.280 has changed, but that double page spread essentially explains what 1:11:45.439 --> 1:11:46.960 is going to come next, and that is the New 1:11:47.000 --> 1:11:51.439 fifty two, where DC essentially stripped everything down, started every 1:11:51.439 --> 1:11:55.240 book from number one, and made a jumping on point 1:11:55.320 --> 1:11:58.360 for all characters where the canon before essentially didn't exist, 1:11:58.400 --> 1:12:00.880 though obviously it did because it byed all the creators 1:12:00.920 --> 1:12:03.759 who made it, but it was essentially a new start 1:12:03.760 --> 1:12:06.880 and it was a huge deal, and at first it 1:12:06.960 --> 1:12:10.559 was a huge boon to comic shops and sold very 1:12:10.560 --> 1:12:13.639 well with lots of beautiful Jim Lee art to kind 1:12:13.680 --> 1:12:17.080 of showcase the story, but it actually didn't last that long. 1:12:17.680 --> 1:12:20.320 It would only be a few years before DC actually 1:12:20.400 --> 1:12:24.080 rebooted the universe again in Rebirth. I loved a lot 1:12:24.080 --> 1:12:26.439 of the stories from Rebirth, but yeah, it was really interesting. 1:12:26.439 --> 1:12:28.840 The New fifty two it's still, i would say, rather 1:12:28.920 --> 1:12:32.200 infamous among fans because it was such a huge leap 1:12:32.240 --> 1:12:35.240 and it all began with Flashpoints, so this is a 1:12:35.280 --> 1:12:39.320 SuperH historical kind of thing. And the craziest thing is 1:12:39.680 --> 1:12:44.960 that Flashpoint has been adapted multiple times before the Flash 1:12:45.120 --> 1:12:48.360 there's Flashpoint Paradox, one of the DCAU animated movies, which 1:12:48.400 --> 1:12:51.439 everybody loves, and it was also no surprises, it was 1:12:51.479 --> 1:12:55.200 just regularly adapted throughout the CW Flash Show, and that 1:12:55.360 --> 1:12:58.519 is something I also did kind of struggle with with 1:12:58.600 --> 1:13:01.519 the movie. It's not that it's derivative, because it's all 1:13:01.560 --> 1:13:04.320 comes from the same source point, but I did feel 1:13:04.360 --> 1:13:06.519 like a lot of the emotional beats and a lot 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:09.960 of the ground that was covered in the Flash had 1:13:10.000 --> 1:13:13.519 already been covered in the CW, and I didn't necessarily 1:13:13.520 --> 1:13:15.360 feel like there was a lot of difference in the show. 1:13:15.439 --> 1:13:19.080 Just like the comics, Grant Gustin changed his timeline. He 1:13:19.120 --> 1:13:21.960 wanted to save his mom, and very much like the Flash, 1:13:22.200 --> 1:13:24.720 they didn't want to adapt this huge global war, so 1:13:24.760 --> 1:13:29.160 it focused on his intimate losses. It was very back 1:13:29.160 --> 1:13:31.840 to the future focused. Oh, you can't have Barry lose 1:13:31.880 --> 1:13:36.639 his connection with Iris, you can't have Barry lose his memories, and. 1:13:36.640 --> 1:13:37.400 It was very interesting. 1:13:37.439 --> 1:13:39.880 That was the opening of season three that really focused 1:13:39.880 --> 1:13:43.160 on that. In season eight, ironically, they did a reverse 1:13:43.240 --> 1:13:46.040 flash point with the Reverse Flash, and that was much 1:13:46.200 --> 1:13:50.519 closer to the comic book version, with this kind of 1:13:50.560 --> 1:13:53.800 global war and Barry having to save the world. It 1:13:53.840 --> 1:13:56.760 was really interesting and definitely you can just jump in 1:13:56.800 --> 1:13:58.679 and watch those after you've read the comics to see 1:13:58.680 --> 1:14:01.040 all the different ways that this story has been adapted, 1:14:01.040 --> 1:14:03.400 and the flashpoint Paradox is seen as one of the 1:14:03.760 --> 1:14:07.760 really great standouts of the DCAU the Animated Universe. But 1:14:07.800 --> 1:14:09.920 all of those movies are great, so they're always worth watching. 1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:14.040 Up next, more Omnibus with a discussion of Secret Invasion. 1:14:30.360 --> 1:14:33.200 Secret Invasion launching this week. By the time you hear 1:14:33.640 --> 1:14:36.599 this podcast, is very likely that Secret Evasion on Disney 1:14:36.640 --> 1:14:39.360 Plus will be out. Yeah, the first episode, first episode 1:14:39.360 --> 1:14:41.160 to be out, So we thought it'd be the perfect 1:14:41.200 --> 1:14:46.280 time to talk about the comics origins of the Secret 1:14:46.320 --> 1:14:51.000 Invasion storyline. No way to think about Secret Invasion, which 1:14:51.080 --> 1:14:54.880 first appeared June eighth, two thousand and eight to January 1:14:54.880 --> 1:14:59.080 two thousand and nine, is in relation to all the 1:14:59.080 --> 1:15:03.559 other Marvel events that took place starting in the early 1:15:03.600 --> 1:15:06.639 two thousands. Now, this was a period of Marvel history 1:15:06.680 --> 1:15:09.240 where the company was just emerging from the kind of 1:15:09.280 --> 1:15:14.360 like business and creative doldrums spurred by their bankruptcy of 1:15:14.640 --> 1:15:18.240 the late nineties. And it was also a time that's 1:15:18.280 --> 1:15:22.240 kind of marked by the increasing influence and prevalence of 1:15:22.280 --> 1:15:26.839 the work of Brian Michael Bendis, who wrote the Secret Invasion, 1:15:26.880 --> 1:15:32.320 the main Secret Invasion storyline. Now, for me, this was 1:15:32.320 --> 1:15:34.439 a period where I was getting back into comics after 1:15:34.520 --> 1:15:37.920 like three years off, and it was also a time 1:15:37.920 --> 1:15:40.080 where it was like super fun to pick up these 1:15:40.080 --> 1:15:42.719 trades and kind of follow the evolution of Marvel Comics 1:15:43.080 --> 1:15:47.439 up through Secret Invasion. So I think for me, this 1:15:47.520 --> 1:15:51.880 period of Marvel starts with Avengers Disassembled, which is two 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:55.760 thousand and four, kind of Brian's big swing in the 1:15:55.760 --> 1:16:01.040 Marvel universe proper. And this storyline is an explo of 1:16:01.800 --> 1:16:05.720 yet another ending of the Avengers. So the Avengers are 1:16:05.920 --> 1:16:09.880 kind of destroyed in a shocking manner which I will 1:16:09.920 --> 1:16:13.200 not outline because it is a really fun read. But 1:16:13.439 --> 1:16:17.120 the kind of takeaway is the Avengers are no more, 1:16:17.280 --> 1:16:20.839 and here is a Marvel Comics universe without the Avengers. 1:16:20.840 --> 1:16:23.639 The Avengers get back together shortly, they're after don't worry, 1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:26.880 of course they always do. Don't worry, But this is again, 1:16:26.920 --> 1:16:28.720 this is two thousand and four, and you get this 1:16:28.960 --> 1:16:32.200 very what, at least at the time for me, was 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:35.760 like this emotionally evocative. All the citizens of New York 1:16:36.240 --> 1:16:39.800 standing candlelight vigil with all their pictures of the Avengers 1:16:39.800 --> 1:16:41.840 and they're standing in front of the Avengers mansion. You 1:16:42.840 --> 1:16:45.760 made really made you feel like, oh, this felt of 1:16:45.800 --> 1:16:48.599 a piece with this post nine to eleven like Iraq 1:16:49.439 --> 1:16:52.080 tragedy world in which oh my god, our heroes are gone. 1:16:52.080 --> 1:16:54.920 They get back together shortly, don't worry about it. That 1:16:55.000 --> 1:16:57.519 leads into a two thousand and five House of M 1:16:57.560 --> 1:17:01.760 of course alternate universe in which the mutants win. That 1:17:01.840 --> 1:17:04.680 is super fun that all of these events, and what 1:17:04.760 --> 1:17:06.760 I think is really cool about these events is they 1:17:06.840 --> 1:17:11.879 then would affect Marvel Cannon going forward into these other events, 1:17:12.000 --> 1:17:14.880 which was a really cool characteristic of them. Mm hmm. 1:17:15.280 --> 1:17:19.759 That leads you to a Decimation, in which the reaction 1:17:19.960 --> 1:17:23.320 to House of M. Right in this alternate timeline, mutants 1:17:23.439 --> 1:17:27.240 are triumphant. It's of course put back together again and 1:17:27.280 --> 1:17:31.640 fixed by the efforts of various heroes, including Wolverine. And 1:17:31.720 --> 1:17:34.880 from there you go to Decimation, where mutants are essentially 1:17:34.920 --> 1:17:38.200 wiped out. There one hundred and ninety eight mutants total 1:17:38.320 --> 1:17:41.920 left in the world. After that, that leads us into 1:17:42.640 --> 1:17:45.840 Civil War two thousand and six. The big have had 1:17:45.880 --> 1:17:49.000 of It? Ever Heard of it? Big interne scene battle 1:17:49.080 --> 1:17:53.439 between two sides of heroes, one side led by Iron Man, 1:17:53.479 --> 1:17:56.040 feels like, hey, we got to register, we got to register. 1:17:56.080 --> 1:17:59.920 Our powers, like there's been too many times where you know, 1:18:00.080 --> 1:18:04.559 the Hulk destroys Las Vegas or the X Men, you know, 1:18:04.760 --> 1:18:07.960 blow up a city and the people are tired of it, 1:18:08.600 --> 1:18:11.360 and shouldn't we register like a loaded weapon? And so 1:18:11.479 --> 1:18:14.479 this turns into the Civil War, where a whole group 1:18:14.720 --> 1:18:19.360 of the superhero community go underground, continue their superhero ways, 1:18:19.400 --> 1:18:23.519 but as essentially outlaws. Now it's a good thing that 1:18:23.600 --> 1:18:28.360 the Hulk wasn't around for Civil War, even though he 1:18:28.479 --> 1:18:31.120 did kind of start it with his destruction of the 1:18:31.320 --> 1:18:34.600 entire American city. And because of that destruction, he has 1:18:34.680 --> 1:18:38.519 launched into space, which gives us World War Hulk. When 1:18:38.600 --> 1:18:43.200 Hulk eventually comes back, he then beats up all the 1:18:43.240 --> 1:18:49.439 heroes that sent him away, and this and the fallout 1:18:49.720 --> 1:18:53.760 from Secret Invasion lead us into another paradigm. But let's 1:18:53.760 --> 1:18:56.559 talk about Secret Invasion. So Hulk comes back, he beats 1:18:56.640 --> 1:19:00.559 up all the heroes, and then Secret Invasion happension on 1:19:00.600 --> 1:19:06.120 the heels of Civil War was devastating because public trust 1:19:06.120 --> 1:19:09.120 and superheroes was already an all time low. Then the 1:19:09.200 --> 1:19:11.920 Hulk beats the shit out of everyone and basically takes 1:19:11.960 --> 1:19:14.920 over the world for a period of time and On 1:19:15.000 --> 1:19:19.640 top of that, we discover in Secret Invasion that not 1:19:19.720 --> 1:19:23.720 only are the heroes extremely fallible, but many of them 1:19:23.720 --> 1:19:24.480 were squalls. 1:19:24.640 --> 1:19:26.599 Yeah, this is I would say, this is like the 1:19:26.640 --> 1:19:31.280 biggest thing that I remember about Secret Invasion that I 1:19:31.360 --> 1:19:35.320 think was so impactful. It's really interesting. We talked about 1:19:35.360 --> 1:19:39.840 Flashpoint that very much felt like it's a fun it's mombastic, 1:19:39.880 --> 1:19:43.080 but it feels like kind of like a corporate edict book, 1:19:43.320 --> 1:19:46.160 like you know that the world needs to be reset. 1:19:46.439 --> 1:19:48.519 It doesn't necessarily have a lot of the lead in. 1:19:48.760 --> 1:19:50.760 You're exactly right, that's a good point. 1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:53.000 Like this does I mean, you were talking about most 1:19:53.240 --> 1:19:57.080 of the big events. You could just read like Civil War, 1:19:57.120 --> 1:19:59.519 you could read Annihilation, you could read Welbe Hulk, then 1:19:59.520 --> 1:20:01.320 you could read Invasion, and you'd kind of have like 1:20:01.360 --> 1:20:05.160 a domino effect of understanding what I remember about Secret Invasion. 1:20:05.680 --> 1:20:10.000 The marketing for this book is it was really good. 1:20:09.960 --> 1:20:13.240 Among the best marketing for any story ever. This is 1:20:13.320 --> 1:20:17.479 my biggest complaint to Marvel Studios why they are not 1:20:17.640 --> 1:20:20.080 doing a who do you trust? Marketing campaign? 1:20:20.280 --> 1:20:23.920 They apparently did send scrolls out to various locations. But 1:20:24.000 --> 1:20:26.280 that's yeah, Oh that's good. That's fun. 1:20:26.400 --> 1:20:28.679 But like so every shop you go into, every comic 1:20:28.720 --> 1:20:30.519 you're reading, it says who do you trust? 1:20:30.560 --> 1:20:31.840 Who do you trust? Who do you trust? 1:20:31.840 --> 1:20:35.160 And they start laying the groundwork for that huge reveal 1:20:35.240 --> 1:20:38.120 that you mentioned, which is that these characters you love 1:20:38.200 --> 1:20:41.799 for like thirty years, guess what, some of them are scrolls. 1:20:41.920 --> 1:20:43.360 And they've been scrolls the whole time. 1:20:44.160 --> 1:20:44.720 You don't know them. 1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:47.080 They some of them have been scrolled so long that 1:20:47.160 --> 1:20:51.120 they don't even know their scrolls. Like, it was so 1:20:51.560 --> 1:20:54.280 good and the idea of who do you trust? And 1:20:54.320 --> 1:20:57.240 the conversation everybody's having is who's a scroll, Who's a scroll? 1:20:57.280 --> 1:20:58.960 Who's the scroll? Who do you think is the scroll? 1:21:00.080 --> 1:21:01.000 It is just so cool. 1:21:01.120 --> 1:21:02.719 And not only that, but this is like you mentioned 1:21:02.760 --> 1:21:06.120 Biromichael Bendis, but the main Secret Invasion arc is like 1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:07.160 a superstar team. 1:21:07.240 --> 1:21:09.479 Leonel Francis. You one of the best artists to ever 1:21:09.479 --> 1:21:12.000 do it. One of our great Filipinos working in comics. 1:21:12.080 --> 1:21:14.680 By the way, one of the most influential communities in 1:21:14.720 --> 1:21:18.439 comics full stop was Potascio. So many icons, but like 1:21:18.840 --> 1:21:21.840 Mark Morales is inking it. You got Laura Martin on colors. 1:21:21.880 --> 1:21:24.280 This is an all star team it's not just a 1:21:24.320 --> 1:21:27.960 great story, but it is a beautifully made comic. And 1:21:28.000 --> 1:21:29.719 I just remember that who do You Trust? 1:21:29.840 --> 1:21:31.880 Was so so. 1:21:32.080 --> 1:21:36.080 Much in that space and that conversation, who is a scroll? 1:21:36.160 --> 1:21:38.719 Which one of the heroes that you love? Who's your favorite? 1:21:39.120 --> 1:21:40.360 Who you can no longer trust? 1:21:40.400 --> 1:21:42.719 It's so clever, And I will say, in a world 1:21:42.800 --> 1:21:46.479 in which the bad guys often have terrible plans, the 1:21:46.520 --> 1:21:50.320 scroll plan is actually really good. You mentioned that's really good. 1:21:50.640 --> 1:21:53.680 I'll name the one that kind of kicked off the 1:21:54.040 --> 1:21:56.800 hero's awareness that something was afoot in that is the 1:21:57.240 --> 1:22:02.160 realization that Electra has been a scroll for an unknown 1:22:02.280 --> 1:22:04.400 amount of time since she came back from the death, 1:22:04.479 --> 1:22:06.839 maybe the whole time, like unclear. 1:22:07.040 --> 1:22:10.559 Seems like scrull technology could be good for bringing someone 1:22:10.560 --> 1:22:11.679 back from the dead, just saying. 1:22:12.000 --> 1:22:15.639 And the realization that Electros a skull sets off other 1:22:15.680 --> 1:22:19.639 realizations that one Stark Tech cannot detect sculls any longer, 1:22:19.760 --> 1:22:23.760 neither can Fantastic four tech. Logan couldn't smell her as 1:22:23.760 --> 1:22:27.679 a scroll. So they've the scrolls have figured something out 1:22:27.760 --> 1:22:30.759 that has allowed them to really potentially burrow deeply into 1:22:30.960 --> 1:22:35.760 the human halls of government, and they don't wait. This 1:22:35.800 --> 1:22:39.840 is a real Pearl Harbor type plan. Like, once all 1:22:39.920 --> 1:22:45.360 the stuff starts happening, it escalates very very quickly from 1:22:45.600 --> 1:22:48.720 the Scrulls have been planning for a long time. That ready, Yeah, 1:22:48.760 --> 1:22:51.800 it escalates very very quickly from like a big fight 1:22:52.000 --> 1:22:56.000 in the Savage Land with Scrull doppelgangers of some of 1:22:56.040 --> 1:23:01.040 your favorite heroes fighting the legitimate articles too, invasion of 1:23:01.160 --> 1:23:05.960 Earth by massive scroll forces and that gets really fun. 1:23:06.240 --> 1:23:08.639 Now that I won't tell you how that pans out. 1:23:08.680 --> 1:23:12.000 It's only an eight issue arc with various other tie ins. 1:23:12.040 --> 1:23:14.559 You don't really need to read the tie ins. 1:23:14.760 --> 1:23:16.200 No, I will say the one that I think is 1:23:16.240 --> 1:23:19.640 worth reading, not for context, but just because it is 1:23:19.640 --> 1:23:21.479 one of the best Black Panther comics of all time 1:23:21.920 --> 1:23:26.080 is the Black Panther Yes tie in comic by Jason Aarram. 1:23:26.120 --> 1:23:29.840 We've talked about that a lot. Se Wakanda and Die 1:23:30.360 --> 1:23:34.320 is very very cool and I just love for me, 1:23:34.560 --> 1:23:38.800 that's like a very cool fun tie in. And it's 1:23:38.800 --> 1:23:42.000 the only one. Is hefte Pallo with the penciler. That's 1:23:42.040 --> 1:23:44.200 the only one where I think you should just read 1:23:44.240 --> 1:23:46.639 it for fun. And it's like three issues but otherwise 1:23:46.640 --> 1:23:48.720 you're right, this is the core story. You can just 1:23:48.760 --> 1:23:49.680 read it and enjoy it. 1:23:49.880 --> 1:23:51.880 So if you're going to read Secret Invasion again, I 1:23:51.920 --> 1:23:56.280 would say, get on at least it's Civil War and 1:23:56.320 --> 1:23:59.360 then go up, because I think it's important to understand 1:23:59.400 --> 1:24:02.000 that content. But you could go all the way back 1:24:02.000 --> 1:24:06.000 to Disassembled and then coming out of Secret Divisions. So 1:24:06.040 --> 1:24:10.680 the heroes do. The invasion is rebuffed, but in a 1:24:10.720 --> 1:24:13.400 world in which the trust in heroes was orid in 1:24:13.439 --> 1:24:16.479 an all time low, and the fact that you know, 1:24:16.560 --> 1:24:19.280 Captain America died at the end of Civil War in 1:24:19.320 --> 1:24:22.519 his own storyline that kind of branched off from Civil War, 1:24:23.000 --> 1:24:25.880 and so there's this real feeling of the heroes have 1:24:25.920 --> 1:24:29.320 blown it. We've given them our trust, we've tried with them, 1:24:29.600 --> 1:24:32.639 and all we get are them fighting each other and 1:24:32.920 --> 1:24:35.760 like an alien invasion that we only caught because of 1:24:35.800 --> 1:24:40.240 like luck that springs us into Dark Rain, which we've 1:24:40.280 --> 1:24:44.160 talked about a lot, which was this seemingly hair brained 1:24:44.840 --> 1:24:47.439 idea of why don't we give Norman Osborne a shot 1:24:47.479 --> 1:24:51.280 to run everything? Which sounds crazy, right, Like that sounds 1:24:51.320 --> 1:24:54.320 crazy to just say, hey, let's give the Green Goblin 1:24:54.400 --> 1:24:58.120 the reins and let But because of all of this 1:24:58.280 --> 1:25:01.760 work that start from Disassembled all the way up where 1:25:01.760 --> 1:25:04.559 you're just seeing the heroes, they win, but they are 1:25:04.840 --> 1:25:07.960 like long range kind of losing because people are just 1:25:08.000 --> 1:25:10.680 like you, guys, aren't really winning in the way you 1:25:10.760 --> 1:25:15.400 used to. It makes Dark Rain really makes sense, Like, yeah, 1:25:15.439 --> 1:25:17.400 and you said something that I really like which I 1:25:17.439 --> 1:25:20.400 hadn't really thought of, which was Flashpoint seemed like a 1:25:20.439 --> 1:25:22.560 corporate edict like, hey, we need to bring in the 1:25:22.640 --> 1:25:24.240 new fifty two. Let's figure out a way we can 1:25:24.280 --> 1:25:27.719 do it. Now. Marvel does this too. There's a million 1:25:27.880 --> 1:25:32.160 Oh it happens all the time. The original eighties Secret War, Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:35.280 The toys was if nothing then a corporate plan to 1:25:35.320 --> 1:25:38.160 sell toys. But what's really cool about this era of 1:25:38.200 --> 1:25:42.800 Marvel comics up to Dark Rain was it really just 1:25:42.880 --> 1:25:45.000 kind of felt like, Hey, you know what would be 1:25:45.040 --> 1:25:47.880 cool coming out of this what if Norman Osborne won? 1:25:48.280 --> 1:25:51.559 So if you're planning on reading Secret Evaging, it naturally 1:25:51.680 --> 1:25:53.200 leads you into Dark Rain, which is a thing you 1:25:53.280 --> 1:25:56.240 might want to read. It so fun. Now, last year 1:25:56.720 --> 1:26:03.040 they gave us a five issue limited series called Secret 1:26:03.080 --> 1:26:06.120 Invasion not Part two, just Secret Invasion once again. Now 1:26:06.160 --> 1:26:11.080 this is the new retelling of a different event, which 1:26:11.120 --> 1:26:14.840 seems we haven't seen Secret Invasion in the show yet. 1:26:14.880 --> 1:26:19.960 But this seems like very much a primer slash soft 1:26:20.240 --> 1:26:22.720 tie in to the show because it has a much 1:26:22.760 --> 1:26:26.879 smaller scope and is focused on a much smaller coterie 1:26:26.920 --> 1:26:32.679 of characters. Written by Ryan North, with art by Francesco Mabili, 1:26:33.479 --> 1:26:37.599 wonderful cover artists, various cover artists. So in the wake 1:26:37.680 --> 1:26:41.960 of the original Scroll Invasion, we learn in twenty twenty 1:26:42.000 --> 1:26:45.719 two Secret Invasion that the Scrolls are back. They're here again, 1:26:46.439 --> 1:26:51.519 but it's not quite what you think. Maria Hill is 1:26:51.840 --> 1:26:55.720 the director of the CIA Shield has been dismantled to 1:26:55.880 --> 1:27:00.960 sound familiar, right, and Nick Fury is just kind of 1:27:01.040 --> 1:27:03.880 like a security consultant, like this font of wisdom, Like 1:27:03.920 --> 1:27:07.000 obviously Nick Fury's seen it all, and if you have 1:27:07.120 --> 1:27:12.640 questions about like how AI could potentially become sentient and 1:27:12.720 --> 1:27:16.639 threaten the world, or what happens if Stark Tech gets out, 1:27:16.680 --> 1:27:19.240 of course you're gonna call Nick Fury and you're gonna 1:27:19.240 --> 1:27:22.880 get him involved. Well, in his capacity as this kind 1:27:22.960 --> 1:27:29.040 of independent security consultant, Nick investigates what is thought to 1:27:29.080 --> 1:27:32.519 be evidence of a scroll invasion in the Midwest, and 1:27:32.560 --> 1:27:35.479 then he goes to Maria Hill and says, guess what, 1:27:35.520 --> 1:27:39.200 I checked it out. It was nothing. But Maria because 1:27:39.439 --> 1:27:42.120 she and Nick have this long running relationship and have 1:27:42.320 --> 1:27:44.680 thought of like all these different ways in which the 1:27:44.720 --> 1:27:47.920 world could go badly. They have like all of these 1:27:47.960 --> 1:27:52.240 security phrases for each other. So she tests Nick, who's 1:27:52.240 --> 1:27:54.160 telling him, yeah, I checked out that thing and it's fine, 1:27:54.560 --> 1:27:57.680 no scrolls involved. She gives him the passphrase, which he 1:27:57.880 --> 1:28:00.400 doesn't know, and that lets her know that guess what, Nick, 1:28:00.439 --> 1:28:03.120 Fury has been replaced by a scroll. And it turns 1:28:03.120 --> 1:28:07.839 out all these other important people but not like important 1:28:07.840 --> 1:28:12.160 people in the government, but not superheros, not superheroes, have 1:28:12.280 --> 1:28:15.479 been replaced by scrulls. I think that's very relevant. That's 1:28:15.600 --> 1:28:17.840 very relevant, right, So that sounds like a lot like 1:28:17.880 --> 1:28:20.320 what the show is going to give us, but this time, 1:28:20.880 --> 1:28:23.839 and I won't spoil it too much. What's happening is 1:28:23.880 --> 1:28:30.160 not a hardcore aggressive scull invasion with attack ships and 1:28:30.280 --> 1:28:35.759 transports and you know this very very elaborate ruse. What's 1:28:35.840 --> 1:28:40.760 happening is an internessene battle between these kind of like 1:28:40.920 --> 1:28:46.519 Scrull extremists who believe that Earth needs to be wiped out, 1:28:46.600 --> 1:28:48.640 and yes we've been trying, and yes we've failed, but 1:28:48.680 --> 1:28:50.559 we figured out a kind of smarter way to do 1:28:50.600 --> 1:28:55.160 it this time. And a sect of Scrolls who think, 1:28:55.840 --> 1:28:58.720 you know what, this is crazy the scroll because the 1:28:58.720 --> 1:29:01.120 Scroll Empire is multiple wars, like, it's not just like 1:29:01.200 --> 1:29:04.160 one quarter world. There's a lot of there's an empire 1:29:04.640 --> 1:29:08.639 and a kind of more human leaning sect of Scrolls 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:10.960 who think, no, we shouldn't be doing it this way. 1:29:10.960 --> 1:29:14.760 And in fact, maybe there's a way that scrolls and 1:29:15.880 --> 1:29:22.320 human superheroes can collaborate much to the success of both parties. 1:29:22.400 --> 1:29:26.640 Like maybe scrolls and humans can benefit from an alliance 1:29:26.680 --> 1:29:29.599 of scroll and humans. Now, can the Sculls be trusted? 1:29:30.200 --> 1:29:33.960 This is what this Secret Invasion twenty twenty two explores, 1:29:34.520 --> 1:29:38.120 And I though it goes a long way towards selling 1:29:38.160 --> 1:29:41.639 you on yeah, maybe some of these Scrolls can be trusted. 1:29:41.680 --> 1:29:44.040 It does feel like it also sets up can they? 1:29:46.120 --> 1:29:49.000 But if you want to check out the twenty twenty 1:29:49.080 --> 1:29:53.040 two Scroll Invasion of Earth, Secret Invasion again not part two, 1:29:53.160 --> 1:29:57.559 just called Secret Invasion? What's again? Classic Marvel tradition, Classic 1:29:57.600 --> 1:30:00.800 Marvel tradition. Check that out. It's only five issues. It's 1:30:00.880 --> 1:30:04.200 really fun and it feels like a direct tie in too. 1:30:04.720 --> 1:30:07.679 I think it's seeding. Yeah, it's definitely seeding this kind 1:30:07.680 --> 1:30:10.519 of smaller scale. Also, I will say Ryan North, writer 1:30:10.680 --> 1:30:13.920 of The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl with Erica Henderson, which is 1:30:13.960 --> 1:30:16.200 like one of the best Marvel comics ever, So definitely 1:30:16.320 --> 1:30:16.960 check it out. 1:30:17.280 --> 1:30:21.200 She's an important part of the secret of this version 1:30:21.240 --> 1:30:22.400 of the Secret Invasion. 1:30:22.800 --> 1:30:25.040 Maybe we'll finally get her in the MCU. But yeah, 1:30:25.040 --> 1:30:28.280 these we truly have been blessed. Like something that I 1:30:28.320 --> 1:30:30.439 love about the way you approach this omnibus is like 1:30:30.880 --> 1:30:33.760 there have been so many great Marvel events, and when 1:30:33.800 --> 1:30:35.639 you think about them, you're like, there are so many 1:30:35.640 --> 1:30:37.040 that I just want to go back and pick up 1:30:37.080 --> 1:30:37.479 a trade of. 1:30:37.560 --> 1:30:40.519 I love Dark Grain, I love Annihilation. Dark Grane was 1:30:40.560 --> 1:30:42.320 really cool. I love Dark. 1:30:42.160 --> 1:30:44.639 Grain is so fun. Also, it's hard to get into 1:30:44.680 --> 1:30:48.040 without spoilers. But like that first Secret Invasion book you 1:30:48.080 --> 1:30:50.960 are talking about, if you have a favorite Marvel character. 1:30:50.800 --> 1:30:52.560 They are in it. Oh, everybody's in it. I'm not 1:30:52.600 --> 1:30:54.519 gonna say whether they're a scroll or not. But like 1:30:54.840 --> 1:30:57.320 it opens and you have a version of the Illuminati. 1:30:57.360 --> 1:31:03.200 You're talking about a level A star famous Marvel heroes 1:31:03.240 --> 1:31:06.240 throughout that whole event, every single hero, you like, every 1:31:06.240 --> 1:31:08.000 single team, they are involved. 1:31:08.040 --> 1:31:11.759 It is like an ultimate blockbuster. So many are involved 1:31:11.800 --> 1:31:13.679 that they go deep. I mean, this is a period 1:31:13.680 --> 1:31:16.400 of time again where post Civil War, right, you had 1:31:16.400 --> 1:31:19.080 two factions. You had the Mighty Avengers, who were like 1:31:19.120 --> 1:31:26.960 the government branded licensed Avengers team Captain, Marvel, Ironman, others. 1:31:27.360 --> 1:31:31.720 And then you had the kind of like Secret Avengers, 1:31:32.040 --> 1:31:35.880 who were the underground team that refused to sign the 1:31:35.920 --> 1:31:41.120 papers to get the licenses. And that's power Man, Wolverine, 1:31:41.600 --> 1:31:44.760 Spider Man, the bad Boys, the Bad Boys. And then 1:31:45.240 --> 1:31:49.000 you had this entire you know, speaking of how deep 1:31:49.439 --> 1:31:53.000 the roster goes, you had this entire fifty states initiative 1:31:53.040 --> 1:31:55.800 where the government was like trying to replace all the 1:31:55.840 --> 1:31:58.600 heroes who went a wall because they didn't want to 1:31:58.600 --> 1:32:02.320 sign and was signed up heroes in every single state. 1:32:03.040 --> 1:32:06.320 And so you had those fifty state initiative like yeah, 1:32:06.520 --> 1:32:09.479 just got their license to drive. Heroes involved in this 1:32:09.720 --> 1:32:11.560 in this battle. I'm gonna tell you this. 1:32:11.720 --> 1:32:14.200 Two things I love about Secret Invasion and that I 1:32:14.240 --> 1:32:16.200 do hope are brought into the show. I feel like 1:32:16.240 --> 1:32:19.000 it's unlikely, but in Secret Invasion, one of the big 1:32:19.040 --> 1:32:21.920 tells that somebody is a scroll is that they eat 1:32:22.000 --> 1:32:25.679 strawberries and pickles because it tastes like a scroll snack. 1:32:25.880 --> 1:32:27.919 So keep an eye out if you watch it on Wednesday. 1:32:27.920 --> 1:32:30.360 See if anyone eats a pickle and a strawberry, or 1:32:30.360 --> 1:32:32.719 even just a pickle or a strawberry, they're probably a scroll. 1:32:32.760 --> 1:32:35.040 And my other thing speaking of deep cut rosters, is 1:32:35.040 --> 1:32:37.599 the importance of a character named three D Man. 1:32:37.640 --> 1:32:38.720 If you have listened to. 1:32:38.720 --> 1:32:40.599 The podcast before, you know I'm a three D Man fan. 1:32:40.840 --> 1:32:42.920 I hope that we end up in a world where 1:32:42.960 --> 1:32:45.479 there's some kind of version of that him and his 1:32:46.080 --> 1:32:48.960 role in the story, which is so fun. 1:32:49.200 --> 1:32:52.040 So it's just such a fun story. I'm I'm very. 1:32:52.240 --> 1:32:55.720 Interested when we have both watched Secret Invasion, which will 1:32:55.720 --> 1:32:57.719 be our you know, our episode that comes out on Friday. 1:32:57.760 --> 1:32:59.639 I'm very excited to talk about it because i feel 1:32:59.640 --> 1:33:02.040 like I'm remembering how much I love the comic, and 1:33:02.080 --> 1:33:03.800 i know it's going to be different. So I'm just 1:33:03.880 --> 1:33:06.240 excited to have that conversation up next. 1:33:06.280 --> 1:33:06.879 Nerd Out. 1:33:14.840 --> 1:33:17.120 In this week's Nerd out where you tell us what 1:33:17.200 --> 1:33:20.280 you love and why, a theory you're excited to share, 1:33:20.479 --> 1:33:22.839 or a quick question we can answer, which is exactly 1:33:22.840 --> 1:33:25.120 what's going to happen this time around? Homer asks a 1:33:25.280 --> 1:33:28.760 multiversal query about the MCU. 1:33:28.920 --> 1:33:31.679 Here's Homer. Hey, sorry if this is a basic question. 1:33:31.720 --> 1:33:33.760 But in Marvel movies and comics, what's the difference between 1:33:33.760 --> 1:33:37.439 a universe and dimension and a timeline? It seems the 1:33:37.479 --> 1:33:39.720 low key Spider Man in Doctor Straine shows movies all 1:33:39.760 --> 1:33:42.040 seem to use different items. Are they different concepts or 1:33:42.080 --> 1:33:44.639 interchangeable words with the same meaning? 1:33:45.840 --> 1:33:49.360 Great question, I was gonna say it seems like a 1:33:49.400 --> 1:33:52.840 basic question, but it is not a basic question because 1:33:52.880 --> 1:33:57.960 I actually think that is an ultimate storytelling question that 1:33:58.080 --> 1:34:00.360 comes out of the fact that you have multiple different 1:34:00.400 --> 1:34:03.439 people telling these stories, and people will say different things 1:34:03.439 --> 1:34:09.080 about universes, dimensions, timelines. They are not all the same, 1:34:09.479 --> 1:34:11.480 but they can be used interchangeably. 1:34:12.000 --> 1:34:15.840 That's how I would explain it. They are broadly interchangeable, 1:34:16.439 --> 1:34:19.559 but which term is used depends on how deeply we're 1:34:19.560 --> 1:34:24.200 going to explore that particular timeline, dimension or universe. 1:34:24.560 --> 1:34:26.920 And also I think the difference, the main difference is 1:34:27.400 --> 1:34:31.600 a new timeline can create a new universe or dimension, 1:34:32.200 --> 1:34:37.760 but universes and dimensions can exist yes, already without being 1:34:37.800 --> 1:34:39.440 created by a new timeline. 1:34:39.600 --> 1:34:44.759 That's essential. Thanks Omer. If you have theories or passions 1:34:44.800 --> 1:34:46.600 you want to share, hit us up at x raycrooked 1:34:46.600 --> 1:34:51.000 dot com. Instructions in the show notes. That's it for us, 1:34:51.120 --> 1:34:52.000 Rosie any plugs. 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:54.599 You can find me here twice a week. You can 1:34:54.640 --> 1:34:58.280 find me on Letterbox, Rosie Marks, Instagram Rosie Marks. You 1:34:58.320 --> 1:35:01.800 can read some articles I've and writing, and check out 1:35:01.840 --> 1:35:05.759 my substat called Rosie recommends right, just recommend cool books 1:35:05.800 --> 1:35:06.400 and comics. 1:35:08.560 --> 1:35:10.800 Catch the next episode of x ray Vision Friday, June 1:35:10.840 --> 1:35:13.080 twenty third for the premier of Secret Invasion on Disney 1:35:13.120 --> 1:35:16.559 Plus Plus. X ray Vision is recording a live episode 1:35:16.560 --> 1:35:19.400 on June twenty six in which we will be discussing 1:35:19.439 --> 1:35:22.120 the fifteenth anniversary of the release of The Dark Knight 1:35:22.240 --> 1:35:24.320 in theaters. If you can't make it in person but 1:35:24.360 --> 1:35:25.920 still want to watch live, go to Crooked dot com 1:35:25.960 --> 1:35:27.840 slash events and scroll down to the x ray Vision 1:35:27.920 --> 1:35:29.040 section to get your. 1:35:28.960 --> 1:35:31.479 Ticket, and you can subscribe on YouTube, where you can 1:35:31.520 --> 1:35:33.880 find full episodes of the show. Check out the discord 1:35:34.439 --> 1:35:36.680 to meet and hind with tons of amazing fans and 1:35:36.760 --> 1:35:38.320 me and Jason yeay. 1:35:39.600 --> 1:35:42.240 Five star ratings, five star reviews. Yes, Fie fie, we 1:35:42.439 --> 1:35:44.280 need him, We gotta have him, you gotta give it 1:35:44.280 --> 1:35:48.120 to us. Here is one from Ashvez eighty four. Rosie 1:35:48.120 --> 1:35:50.080 and Jason are so fun entertaining. Thank you. I'm not 1:35:50.160 --> 1:35:51.800 even a big comic s I five person, and I 1:35:51.880 --> 1:35:54.559 still listen because they are that good. Very appreciate their 1:35:54.560 --> 1:35:57.519 inclusivity and how they make everything so easy to understand. 1:35:57.760 --> 1:36:01.960 Rosie knows everything strong or great. Thank you here, I 1:36:02.080 --> 1:36:10.519 see you next time. Bye. X ray Vision is a 1:36:10.520 --> 1:36:12.800 Crooked Media production. The show is produced by Chris Lord 1:36:12.800 --> 1:36:15.920 and Saul Rumin and executive produced by me Jason Concepcion. 1:36:15.960 --> 1:36:19.160 Our editing a sound design is by Facillis Fatopoulos. Video 1:36:19.200 --> 1:36:23.200 production by Delon Villanueva and Rachel Gaieski. Social media by 1:36:23.280 --> 1:36:27.040 Awa Oklati and Caroline Dunfe. Thank you to Brian Basquez 1:36:27.080 --> 1:36:27.840 for our theme music.