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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing pretty well. How about you?

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Speaker 2: I am doing fine. So what's been going on in

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Speaker 2: your world?

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Speaker 1: I am a permanent resident of Algebra City with my kid.

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Speaker 2: What does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Did you help your kids ever with math? It is

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Speaker 1: terrible for me. Did you ever? Were you that dad

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Speaker 1: who helped with the homework and stuff?

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Speaker 2: No, you know, my wife pretty much handles all the

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Speaker 2: homework assignments with the kids. I have just maybe on

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Speaker 2: a handful of occasions, just kind of poked over the

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Speaker 2: shoulders and said hey, try this and walked away. That

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Speaker 2: sort of my You know, I'm so far removed. I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would have to go back and study in order

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Speaker 2: to really be of any help. And now my youngest kids,

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Speaker 2: I mean they're a senior and junior. They're taking calculus. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's no way, there's no way.

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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to ask you that first of all.

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Speaker 1: Number one, it sounds like what I've picked up over

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Speaker 1: the past year and a couple of months is that

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Speaker 1: your wife is a saint. She does everything. She runs

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Speaker 1: away from bears, she takes care of your kids, She

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Speaker 1: rescues your jack O lanterns from the deer that eat

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Speaker 1: them on the front porch. The what can this woman

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Speaker 1: not do?

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, no, she has to make up for

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Speaker 2: my deficiencies. Let's put it that way.

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Speaker 1: Do you use a lot of math in the forensic

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Speaker 1: y stuff that you do. Isn't there trigonometry involved? Or

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Speaker 1: Am I just making that up in my head based

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Speaker 1: on a TV show?

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Speaker 2: Now there is math, you know a lot of it

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Speaker 2: is very very basic math. You know, when you're doing

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Speaker 2: just fundamental chemistry, calculations of mixing up reagents. There's nothing

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Speaker 2: complex about that it's not even algebra when you start

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Speaker 2: getting into let's say, you know, blood pattern analysis. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: there is some trig that is involved, some of the

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Speaker 2: firearms aspects. There can be some math, but generally for

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Speaker 2: routine forensic work, most of the math is fairly straight straightforward.

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Speaker 2: I can say that I don't recall a single instance

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Speaker 2: that I ever had to resort to any advanced math,

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Speaker 2: such as a dance trig or advanced calculus, or any

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Speaker 2: calculus for that matter.

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Speaker 1: Well, there you go. I wish that I got off

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Speaker 1: as easy with this situation. My kid is not a

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Speaker 1: fan of tutors, even though I say we might need

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Speaker 1: a math tutor. And so now I am the tutor,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like I am maybe a quarter of

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Speaker 1: a step ahead of her. It's fun. I love bonding

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Speaker 1: with her, and she just told me the other day,

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Speaker 1: I really love doing homework with you and stuff, and

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Speaker 1: I love spending time with her. I'm not quite sure

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with the homework part of it, but you know,

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Speaker 1: what are you going to do? So so I am

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Speaker 1: going back to eighth grade algebra and wondering how did

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Speaker 1: I pass this? I have no idea how that happened

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Speaker 1: because don't wish me luck.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you know, I've looked at algebra. I've even thought,

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Speaker 2: you know, as I get older, I probably should do

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Speaker 2: some of these mental gymnastics, and you know, I'll go

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Speaker 2: back and work some math, maybe at some of these

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Speaker 2: online sites or you know, through a phone app. If

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Speaker 2: you don't use it, you lose it. And I've lost

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Speaker 2: it and I'm not really willing to go back and

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Speaker 2: find it. I know, I just don't care.

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Speaker 1: I would love to lose it forever, but I'm afraid

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be trapped as a permanent resident of

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Speaker 1: Algebra City for the next probably year or so, and

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Speaker 1: then maybe I'll be freed to move back into the

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Speaker 1: real world. But we'll see. For right now, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to be the hero here, and I'm crossing my fingers

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Speaker 1: every time we get a grade back because she glares

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Speaker 1: at me when something bad goes wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Kate, you're aware that there's ninth, tenth, eleventh, and

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Speaker 2: twelfth grade math that's going to follow this. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't think you're going to get off the hook.

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Speaker 1: Don't harsh, my mellow Paul. I'm already thinking this summer

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Speaker 1: is going to be a good one. Well, speaking of family,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a pretty quick turn to the left

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Speaker 1: here because thank goodness that we don't have to deal

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Speaker 1: with some of the stuff that this family has dealt with.

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Speaker 1: And our story coming up. This is in California, and

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Speaker 1: I'll be interested in knowing if you know much about

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Speaker 1: this specific area. It's going to be eighteen ninety six,

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Speaker 1: and I'm going to keep it a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a mystery of who our person is, but I will

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Speaker 1: tell you this is a horrific story. Does not involve

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Speaker 1: sexual assault that we know of, but does involve just

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Speaker 1: the decimation of an entire family. And I just can't

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Speaker 1: wait to hear what you think happened in this case.

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Speaker 2: All right now in California, whereabouts?

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, Well, we're going to Santa Clara County.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Okay, I know Santa Clara County, you know, not

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Speaker 2: necessarily all the smaller towns, but it was a county

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Speaker 2: that was just two counties away from Contra Costa County.

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Speaker 2: You know I was down there quite frequently.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, let's go ahead and set the scene. So

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Speaker 1: this is eighteen ninety six, Campbell, California, So this is

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Speaker 1: the agricultural hub of Santa Clara County, Steinbeck Country, John Steinbeck.

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Speaker 1: So tell me, do you know much about this? You

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Speaker 1: said you know much about Santa Clara County. Have you

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Speaker 1: heard of Campbell before?

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Speaker 2: I'm kind of surprised. I have not heard of Campbell.

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Speaker 2: But it looks like in the current day, it looks

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Speaker 2: like it's been swallowed up by this metropolis of San Jose.

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Speaker 2: And it's halfway between, you know, really downtown San Jose

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Speaker 2: and Los Gados. And I actually have a connection to

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Speaker 2: a case in Los Gatos, so I'm somewhat familiar with

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Speaker 2: this general area.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good, Well, I don't know how helpful it's going

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Speaker 1: to be, but I always think it's helpful for us

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Speaker 1: to place you where we are. So this involves a

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Speaker 1: very well to do man named Colonel Richard mc lindsey.

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Speaker 1: And this is kind of a famous story in the area.

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Speaker 1: Let me kind of give you contexts again. This is

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Speaker 1: eighteen ninety six, so this is twenty some odd years

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Speaker 1: after the Civil War. He is fifty six mcclinsey, and

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Speaker 1: he served in the Confederate Army and in the past

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Speaker 1: he had been a newspaper editor and a leader in

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Speaker 1: the dairy industry in the Midwest before he was divorced

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Speaker 1: from his wife and he moved to California about seven

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Speaker 1: years before all of this happened. He found more career

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Speaker 1: opportunities in California and he worked in agriculture and politics.

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Speaker 1: And he also got remarried to a woman named Ada Wells.

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Speaker 1: So they were married shortly after he moved to California,

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Speaker 1: and he becomes very wealthy. So they have a really

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Speaker 1: nice house. They start to build this family. Richard is

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Speaker 1: Ada's second husband, so they had both been married once

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Speaker 1: before the first husband died and left her with three kids,

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Speaker 1: including two who we will revisit later. One his name

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Speaker 1: is Hattie and the other one is named James, and

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Speaker 1: Hattie's married. So there's a lot of characters here that

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Speaker 1: we have to get straight.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was you said the colonel ended up making

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Speaker 2: a lot of money. How did he make his money

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Speaker 2: just through the agricultural business.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, agriculture in late eighteen hundreds in California would have

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Speaker 1: been big business. So I'm not sure he is like

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Speaker 1: a gilded age on godly wealthy, but he definitely they

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Speaker 1: have a nice life. He's retired, but he has some

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Speaker 1: pretty strong opinions about the people and his family, which

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Speaker 1: is what comes into play later on. But yes, we

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Speaker 1: are talking about someone who is affluent.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So Hattie, who is the daughter, is a graduate of

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Speaker 1: what's called the Normal School in San Jose. This is

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Speaker 1: a little history. It's later called San Jose State, which

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you've heard of of course. Yeah, So she

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Speaker 1: married somebody named James Dunham two years before all of

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Speaker 1: this happened, so about eighteen ninety four. They got married.

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Speaker 1: Their relationship is complicated, and that plays into this story.

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Speaker 1: So Hattie dated James, and the rumor is that she

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Speaker 1: dated him initially before where she married him because she

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Speaker 1: had once been involved with James's brother, Charles. She dated

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Speaker 1: Charles and after they broke up, I'm presuming Charles broke

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Speaker 1: up with her. Hat he dated his brother to make

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Speaker 1: him jealous, and then they end up just getting married

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Speaker 1: and that was that. So already the relationship starts out

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Speaker 1: I think kind of negative if we're going to believe

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Speaker 1: that story that she did this. You know, she started

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Speaker 1: dating James specifically to make his own brother jealous.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, obviously in some ways this is a kind

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Speaker 2: of a weird lover's triangle, you know. So it becomes

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Speaker 2: important to start knowing the two brothers relationships with each other,

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Speaker 2: you know, and what they were like growing up, what

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Speaker 2: their current relationship was. If we're starting to talk about

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Speaker 2: something progressing to a crime involving these three, well, obviously

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Speaker 2: there's a dynamic here that's important to really dig into.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and James is a central character here. He's very

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Speaker 1: important because this entire family is connected by what happens.

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Speaker 1: So let me tell you a little bit about James

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Speaker 1: and his family. He comes from a family of means,

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Speaker 1: the Dunhams. He is, however, a black sheep of the family.

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Speaker 1: He's an air do well. He can't hold a job.

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Speaker 1: We don't know why. He goes from job to job.

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Speaker 1: He's started some business ventures that fail. He's about thirty

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Speaker 1: and he enrolls in Santa Clara College as a pre

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Speaker 1: law student. There's a failure to start with him. He

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Speaker 1: just could not get it together and this was really

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Speaker 1: frustrating to everybody, particularly the colonel who has Hattie's father.

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Speaker 1: He never thinks that James is good enough and frankly

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Speaker 1: had these friends don't really like James to begin with.

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Speaker 1: You think that he's coming from this family and he

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Speaker 1: has all of this potential, and it really does sound

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Speaker 1: like a failure to launch. He should be really providing

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Speaker 1: for his family at this point. Again, another bad start

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Speaker 1: for this whole conflict.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, and I think it's part of the

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Speaker 2: you know, the times. Back then, as a thirty year

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Speaker 2: old man, I believe was expected to have a fair

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Speaker 2: amount of responsibility, be productive in society. I mean, we're

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Speaker 2: seeing today these thirty something men that are not engaging

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Speaker 2: with working. You know, they're on video games all day long,

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Speaker 2: and you know, so it's a little bit different in

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Speaker 2: terms of the era. You know, he sounds like what

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Speaker 2: I would characterize as an underperformer. You know, he has

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Speaker 2: a lot of potential. He's probably very bright, but he

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Speaker 2: for whatever reason, maybe it's lack of effort, distractions, he's

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Speaker 2: just not performing up to his capabilities.

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Speaker 1: I agree. And one of the examples that was given

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Speaker 1: was that James talked Hattie into moving to Stockton briefly

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Speaker 1: and opening up a bicycle shop, failed and couldn't get

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Speaker 1: it together, not good to business. And then some things

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Speaker 1: start popping up. His red flags for Hattie. They work

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Speaker 1: together at the State and Hattie was looking through her

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Speaker 1: purse and some stuff that she brought with her, which

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Speaker 1: I presume is probably jewelry, went missing, and she, of

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Speaker 1: course is stressed out, and James says, we'll find it.

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Speaker 1: It's fine. They find it at a local pawnshop and

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Speaker 1: eventually James confesses that he took the stuff from his

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Speaker 1: wife's purse and sold it at the pawn shop. And

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Speaker 1: I have no idea why, Paul. We just know this

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Speaker 1: is a guy who never had money, who married into

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Speaker 1: a well off family. He came from a well off family.

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Speaker 1: Sounds to me like he has this sort of constant

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Speaker 1: black cloud of failure hanging over his head.

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Speaker 2: It is very interesting. I mean, he's married to this woman,

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Speaker 2: I mean, he has access to the financial assets, and

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Speaker 2: yet he's doing this, this theft and pawning it. I

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Speaker 2: almost wonder if there's a pathology there. You know, he's

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Speaker 2: like this chronic shoplifter and that's just what he does

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Speaker 2: because he gets something out of it. But also a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a red flag that is kind of

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Speaker 2: popping into my head is could this be an attempt

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Speaker 2: to be at the early stages of some sort of

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Speaker 2: planned crime where now you're having stolen property from the

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Speaker 2: wife show up at a pawn shop to where if

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Speaker 2: something happens to the wife, then the investigation is going

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Speaker 2: to obviously think, you know, hey, maybe there's a you know,

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Speaker 2: a burglar. Something went awry and this burglar showed up

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Speaker 2: at the pawn shop. So it'd be interesting to see

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Speaker 2: how the story unfolds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, at a minimum, we're talking about broken

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Speaker 1: trust between husband and wife and talk about red flags.

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Speaker 1: I have a bigger one for you. Now. They move

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Speaker 1: in with the Colonel with Hattie's father into this nice

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Speaker 1: house in Campbell. When they move in, James Dunham says

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Speaker 1: to his father in law, I'll help you do some

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Speaker 1: things around the house. No problem, you're helping support us.

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Speaker 1: So James falls off a ladder on his father in

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Speaker 1: law's property. He gets some minor injuries. I'm gonna try

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Speaker 1: to say this with a straight face. He threatens to

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Speaker 1: sue the colonel for ten thousand dollars his father in law.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what are you thinking. That's three hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars right now, by the way, what is

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Speaker 1: he thinking? He's trying to sue his father in law

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Speaker 1: for minor injuries.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's he's a scammer. You know, he probably set

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Speaker 2: up this ladder. They're just minor injuries. It's not like

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Speaker 2: he you know, broke his femur as if it were

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Speaker 2: a real fall, you know. So he just got hurt

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Speaker 2: just enough to say, hey, look I was on your

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Speaker 2: property and now you owe me some money. Yeah. So

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Speaker 2: this this really is telling about James's inner personality and

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Speaker 2: what his potential is for criminality.

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Speaker 1: Well, get ready, because there's more. So. The colonel said,

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Speaker 1: go kick rocks. I'm not interested in giving you any money.

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Speaker 1: That's official. It's my official phrase. Go kick rocks. He said,

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Speaker 1: I'm not giving you any money at all. Forget anything

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Speaker 1: like that. Good, I'll use it again. And he said,

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Speaker 1: you're not getting anything out of me. He didn't kick

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Speaker 1: him out to the colonel's credit or detriment, I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure which. I guess we'll find out. But we're starting

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Speaker 1: to get a sense, as you said, about what James

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Speaker 1: could be capable of. His mom tells a story at

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Speaker 1: some point that is really disturbing, and I know you're

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Speaker 1: gonna want to talk about this. She says about ten

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Speaker 1: years ago, which would make him about twenty long before

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Speaker 1: he met his wife. He came to his mother's house

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Speaker 1: and said, I need some cash. She said no, and

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Speaker 1: he kept trying to talk her into it. She said

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Speaker 1: forget it. He went outside and killed three of the

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Speaker 1: family chickens by strangling each one of them. Does this

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Speaker 1: fall into your serial killer torturing animals or is this

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Speaker 1: a guy who's capable of doing anything because he can

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Speaker 1: just snap for no good reason.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Now this is a serious issue. So you know,

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Speaker 2: many people have heard of the serial killer triad, the

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Speaker 2: bed wedding, the fire setting, and then the violence hurting

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Speaker 2: animals or killing animals. I put no weight on bed

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Speaker 2: wedding at all. Fire setting. It depends on how the

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Speaker 2: blossoming predator is getting from doing that. But the biggest

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Speaker 2: red flag, if you will, is when somebody goes out

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Speaker 2: and hurts an animal or kills an animal. They're just

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Speaker 2: one step away from doing that to a human. And

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Speaker 2: so this when I was with the DA's office sometimes

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Speaker 2: Animal Control, the investigators there or DA's who were having

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Speaker 2: to review cases of teenagers torturing animals. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: now assessing and saying, yes, you know, this is a

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Speaker 2: predictor of future violence, and there needs to be some

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Speaker 2: sort of intercession, you know, of psychological counseling, Law enforcement

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Speaker 2: needs to be aware of this person, therapy, et cetera.

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Speaker 2: It's not just charging the crime and forgetting about this

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Speaker 2: seventeen year old boy, because once they turn eighteen or

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Speaker 2: once they turn twenty one, they're back out in society

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Speaker 2: and nobody's following them, and they potentially could escalate to

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Speaker 2: violence against people. So yes, so James straining these these

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Speaker 2: chickens out of anger, He's probably hurt other animals prior

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Speaker 2: to this incident.

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Speaker 1: And boy will this foreshadows some things coming up. So

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Speaker 1: I want to give you a little insight on our process.

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Speaker 1: You know, Maren does these fantastic prep documents for me,

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Speaker 1: and then I add my own research. The way that

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Speaker 1: she prepped this document starts with the action, which I

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Speaker 1: love because we don't get to start with the action,

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Speaker 1: and Boil Boy does a lot happen starting now. I

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Speaker 1: flipped it the research. I wanted to tell you about

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Speaker 1: our main suspect, so I'm not sugarcoating this. James does

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Speaker 1: some pretty bad things, but I wanted to build up

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Speaker 1: to it in a different way so that you see

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Speaker 1: where we're coming from when all of this happens, because

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Speaker 1: to me, this is one of the worst things I've

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Speaker 1: ever read happening in a family. So the precursor to

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Speaker 1: this is the colonel and James used to have an

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Speaker 1: okay relationship until James said, I'm suing you, and the

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Speaker 1: colonel said, get out of here. You're not doing anything.

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Speaker 1: You're married to my daughter, and I'm going to tolerate you,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not giving you any money. Hattie is starting

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Speaker 1: to mouth off a little bit and saying to her friends,

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Speaker 1: this guy, you know, I don't know what's going on

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Speaker 1: with him. We've been married a couple of years. I

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Speaker 1: thought that we were going to have a good relationship.

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Speaker 1: He came from a great family. He can't get a job,

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Speaker 1: and they just had a child, so they have a newborn.

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Speaker 1: And now we have James going to someone who works

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Speaker 1: with a local lawyer, and the lawyer becomes suspicious because

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Speaker 1: James says, I have a couple of questions. I have

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Speaker 1: a young son, and I want to know if all

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Speaker 1: things being equal, in a will, if everyone else in

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Speaker 1: the colonel's will, for example, hypothetically dies, would my son

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Speaker 1: stand to inherit because he's a grandchild. So it's a

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Speaker 1: what will it take if I don't know what's in

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Speaker 1: the will for us to make sure that my son

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Speaker 1: gets this fortune if everybody else dies, And the lawyer says,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, but doesn't talk about it. He just is alarmed,

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Speaker 1: and I would be alarmed too, of course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this I mean, obviously there sounds like there's some

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Speaker 2: scheming and plotting being done by James, and now the

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Speaker 2: people that would be in succession to inherit the will

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Speaker 2: are potentially his targets because if his son, the Colonel's grandson,

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Speaker 2: would be the primary beneficiary, if all these other intermediaries

355
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Speaker 2: are dead, then of course James now is the beneficiary.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's talk about the night that all of

357
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Speaker 1: this stuff really starts to fall apart for this family.

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Speaker 1: It's Wednesday, May twenty seventh, eighteen ninety six, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell you what happens first. So this is

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Speaker 1: a sign of the times. The colonel and James Wells,

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Speaker 1: who was the colonel's step son, So that would be

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to get complicated, that would

363
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Speaker 1: be James Dunham's step brother in law, I guess, and

364
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Speaker 1: a ranch hand named George Shable, who is very important.

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Speaker 1: Later on, they all attend a meeting of an organization

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Speaker 1: called the American Protective Association in downtown Campbell. This is

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Speaker 1: an anti Catholic secret society. And they were all over

368
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Speaker 1: the place. They were scared to death of Catholics. I

369
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Speaker 1: mean just I mean, we can do a whole episode

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Speaker 1: on anti Catholic sentiment in the United States in this

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Speaker 1: time period, and of course later on. But they had

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Speaker 1: decided they were going to go to this meeting, and

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Speaker 1: they all go out. George, the ranch hand, the step son, James,

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Speaker 1: and the colonel will go home. And it sounds like

375
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Speaker 1: James Dunham was also out, but he was around nine o'clock.

376
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Speaker 1: He was out until about nine o'clock or so, about

377
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Speaker 1: ten o'clock James gets home. Well, he's downstairs from nine

378
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Speaker 1: until ten, and at ten o'clock he goes upstairs to

379
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Speaker 1: the bedroom that his wife is sharing with their newborn baby.

380
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Speaker 1: And then there is a servant named Minnie who's sleeping

381
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Speaker 1: in a small adjoining room to help presumably with the newborn.

382
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Speaker 1: So this is where we're left. The doors are closed,

383
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Speaker 1: people say good night, and we would pause here in

384
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Speaker 1: the story because now we're going to introduce our first

385
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Speaker 1: witness who gets the hell scared out of him. Okay,

386
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Speaker 1: here we go. There's a lot of chaos happening here,

387
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Speaker 1: and I'll just stop along the way with questions. So

388
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Speaker 1: everybody's gone to bed. We're on a rural ranch, but

389
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Speaker 1: there are neighbors, but they're on ranches, so this is

390
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Speaker 1: not particularly close. It's after midnight at that night, and

391
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Speaker 1: there is a neighbor named Elsie Ross, and he hears

392
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Speaker 1: gunshots coming from the ranch. He runs to the colonel's

393
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Speaker 1: ranch and he sees James standing on the porch of

394
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Speaker 1: a cabin on the property. So he's not in the

395
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: main house. It's you know, like an outbuilding where a

396
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Speaker 1: couple of the ranch hands live. He's shooting at the

397
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Speaker 1: door of the cabin with a revolver. So James has

398
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Speaker 1: officially lost it. What you know about James, I'm assuming

399
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Speaker 1: you're going to say everybody is in danger, even his

400
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Speaker 1: newborn son. At this point, despite what he said at

401
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Speaker 1: the attorney's office, he's gone off the rails.

402
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this, I mean he could be, you know,

403
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 2: in some sort of crisis. He's shooting into this I'm

404
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 2: assuming an occupied dwelling, yep. But we don't know really

405
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 2: what has transpired leading up to this shooting, so a

406
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,359
Speaker 2: lot of it is going to be dictated by well,

407
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,719
Speaker 2: what are the details in terms of assessing James' mental state?

408
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,520
Speaker 2: Is he in protective mode self defense mode? Did he

409
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: see a home invader and chase him out and the

410
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: invader went into this cabin and now James is shooting

411
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Speaker 2: into the cabin Or did James just pick a gun

412
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Speaker 2: up and walk over there and start shooting into the

413
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Speaker 2: cabin with maybe the intent to scare or kill the occupants?

414
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Speaker 2: So I need more, but this is kind of bizarre behavior.

415
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Speaker 1: So luckily for us, there are two survivors won. The

416
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Speaker 1: witness I just mentioned, Elsie Ross, and another one. I'm

417
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: not going to tell you who it is yet, but

418
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Speaker 1: it's somebody on the property. So Elsie Ross has run

419
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: over at midnight from his ranch. He's scared a death,

420
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Speaker 1: He's not armed, and so he hides in a cluster

421
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: of trees and watches all of this. So we are

422
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Speaker 1: going to have somebody outside as a witness, and we'll

423
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Speaker 1: have somebody inside with all as a witness. He knows

424
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: the family and he knows that this is James Dunham,

425
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Speaker 1: and he also knows the colonel has had problems with

426
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,040
Speaker 1: his son in law in the past. So Dunham is

427
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: shaking the door. He's got this revolver. He's saying, let

428
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Speaker 1: me in. Somebody on the other side of the door

429
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: is holding it closed, and he yells, come out, Mac,

430
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: come out. I want to see you. I am bound

431
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 1: to have you anyway. Bob, you come out here. I

432
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 1: want you too, and you too, Shable. So these are

433
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,200
Speaker 1: Bob is a domestic worker on the ranch named Robert Briscoe.

434
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: He's about thirty. Shable is George Shable. He's another ranch

435
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: hand and a third person Mac, and I'll tell you

436
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: about him in a little bit. So he's demanding these

437
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: people come out. He's got a gun. He's trying to

438
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 1: get in. They're trying to hold the door to not

439
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: let him in. These guys are all basically the same age.

440
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: They're in their early thirties or so. James, he's done

441
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: him and the witness Ross don't know it. But George

442
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 1: Shable is actually in the barn and he's hiding in

443
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: the hayloft, so he must have heard some shots and escaped.

444
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: So he is our survivor. He's one of the witnesses.

445
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of back and forth. There's so

446
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: much action in this story. James Dunham fires through the

447
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: doors of the cabin twice and Bob Briscoe climbs out

448
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: the window at the back of the cabin. He starts

449
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: running away. James chases him and this is our first death,

450
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: shoots him twice with the revolver killed him. So James

451
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: is now picking people off, and this is where it

452
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 1: gets really scary. What do you think so far?

453
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: You know what to be Frank, I don't know what

454
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,160
Speaker 2: to think at this point, because you know what's happened

455
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: to the occupants inside the primary residence, his wife and

456
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,679
Speaker 2: kids still alive. Is the colonel still alive? You know?

457
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 2: This almost sounds like he's tracking down witnesses. Maybe he

458
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: has already committed a homicide or a multiple homicide inside

459
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 2: the house. Recognizes either some of these ranch hands may

460
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 2: have been in the house and he didn't realize it,

461
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 2: and now he's having to track these witnesses down, or

462
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: he's concerned that maybe they overheard something, you know, that's

463
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: kind of where I'm thinking this is going. The fact

464
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 2: that Bob was holding the door closed. They're recognizing there's

465
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: a threat, and so they've either seen James with the

466
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 2: gun and went inside, or maybe James has already fired

467
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: some shots, you know, so they know without having any

468
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:34,360
Speaker 2: visual of James that he is a threat. So sounds

469
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: like there's a prior interaction that has occurred, and now

470
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: James is trying to take care of business. And usually

471
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: offenders do this for self preservation.

472
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: So let me give you more information. When he says

473
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: come out, Mac, he's talking about Colonel mc lindsey. He's

474
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: in the cabin too, So Bob Briscoe is gone dead,

475
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: George Shable is in the barn, and so the only

476
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: person left in the cabin is the father in law.

477
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: So while James is distracted with killing Bob Briscoe, around

478
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: the side of the cabin, mc lindsay opens up the door.

479
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: The colonel opens up the door of the cabin and

480
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: starts running towards the main house. James comes after him,

481
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: and the colonel turns around and goes back into the

482
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: cabin and shuts the door. But before that he had

483
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,719
Speaker 1: been shot in the chest as he's running, so he's

484
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: shot in the chest. He goes into the cabin, he

485
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: shuts the door. James stands on the porch and fires

486
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: a few more times through the door, hitting the colonel

487
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: his father in law, and then the colonel opens up

488
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: the door, runs and falls, and James hits his father

489
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: in law two more times with bullets and then that

490
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: is it. Finally he's dead. So a lot of shooting.

491
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: So now we've got a ranch hand who's dead, one

492
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: that's hidden, and then you've got the father in law

493
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: who's now dead. After it sounds like six or sive shots.

494
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, and with the colonel here, you have this this dynamic.

495
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: You know, the colonel of course is trying to avoid

496
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: being shot, he is getting shot. Well, when the colonel

497
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 2: goes down and James fires down into him, I mean,

498
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 2: this just shows intent. This wasn't, you know, some sort

499
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: of self defense. This wasn't accidental. James intended to kill

500
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 2: the colonel.

501
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: This just seems like a out of control spree. And

502
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: it gets a lot worse because James wants to find

503
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 1: George Shable and I don't quite know why. I don't

504
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: know if this is because he's so angry that he

505
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: wants to eliminate everybody he sees, or if he thinks

506
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: George should have been in the cabin because he's a

507
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,959
Speaker 1: ranch hand, he wasn't and he needs to make sure

508
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: that he's dead for practical reasons, or maybe it's both.

509
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: What do you think, Well, at this point in time,

510
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: my guess is that he's eliminating witnesses. You know, maybe

511
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: there's an aspect a conflict between him and the he's

512
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: ranch hands, you know, and he wants to take them

513
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: out because of that conflict. But given the information regarding

514
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: sort of this contentious relationship that James had with the

515
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: colonel and how he is targeting the colonel and executing

516
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: the colonel in essence, seems like the colonel is probably

517
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: primary targeting. The ranch hands are collateral damage. He's just

518
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 2: eliminating the witnesses. So that's kind of what I think

519
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: is going on right now. Now. We, of course, unfortunately,

520
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: see these mass shootings, and you know, is James taking

521
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: on sort of that psychology of a massive shooter. But

522
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: that seems because of the dynamics in this case, that

523
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: just doesn't seem right to me.

524
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: He's taking a lot of chances. The reason we know

525
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: what we know is because of Elsie Ross, who's hiding

526
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: in the trees and George Shabel who is hiding in

527
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: the barn. Dunham wants to know where the heck George

528
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 1: Shable is. He knows he's supposed to be there, and

529
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 1: he goes to barn. He climbs the ladder to the

530
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: hayloft where Shabel is hiding, which I'm sure just terrified him.

531
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: James strikes a match to see if he's up there,

532
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: but luckily George had covered himself I presume with hay

533
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: and you know, hey bails well enough where he was hidden.

534
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 1: James looks around with this match a little bit in

535
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: the hayloft and gives up and climbs down. Now we

536
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: pick up the point of view of Elsie Ross, the

537
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: neighbor witness, who is hiding behind the trees, and he

538
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: sees James come out of the stable dragging along an

539
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: unsaddled horse. He hops on it and he rides away.

540
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: And now Elsie wants to know what is happening in

541
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: the main house. And when George comes out of the

542
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: barn and they presume there's no more threat. They decide

543
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: to sound the alarm and get some help. Good lord,

544
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: I mean, what a story so far?

545
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you've kind of got me on a line.

546
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: I want to know what's going on inside the house.

547
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's talk about it. So George is alive,

548
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: Elsie gets two other men and they look through and

549
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: they find one forty five caliber revolver that was left

550
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: on the porch of the main house. So they know

551
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: that James has been at the main house. All the

552
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: action has been in the barn or the cabin so far.

553
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: So they find a forty five caliber revolver. The four

554
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: men go inside the main house and there's blood on

555
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 1: the floor of the entryway, and the house is full

556
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: of broken furniture and splintered fragments of a guitar that

557
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just completely wrecked. It looks like a

558
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: hurricane or a tornado hit this place. The first body

559
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: that they find is the step son, who is twenty

560
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: two and presumably pretty strong. He's next to the dining

561
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: room table. Now, let me tell you this, eighteen ninety

562
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: six pictures would not have been that common, But I

563
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: do have photographs of all of this, all of the

564
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: crime scene. Sure, if they'll tell you a lot, but

565
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: I do have them. Do you want to hear the

566
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: details of each person and see each photo or do

567
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: you want me to tell you everything that happened and

568
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: then you could see all the photos at once. It's

569
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: like a cornucopia of evidence available to you.

570
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 2: You're not used to, exactly, I'm not used to you

571
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: having all of this.

572
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,959
Speaker 1: You can't contain yourself, I know. So what is it first?

573
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: Like when I arrive on scene, of course I get

574
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: briefed about the totality of something, and then there's a

575
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: systematic process in terms of going through the scene to

576
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: see what's going on, and then ultimately the processing of

577
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: the scene. So I think I would want to know

578
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 2: the totality first, and then let's take a look at

579
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: the photos.

580
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 1: Well, I have a page of totality, so get ready.

581
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: So the step son, the colonel's step son, which is

582
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: Hattie's brother, is found first. He's ground floored next to

583
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: the dining room table. His clothes are on fire from

584
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: being shot at a close range. She had been shot

585
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 1: five times with two different guns, a forty five and

586
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: a thirty eight. He was shot in the chest, the back,

587
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: the shoulder, the thumb, the jaw, and the bullet from

588
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: the jaw passed out of the cavity of the skull

589
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: just back of the right ear and followed the line

590
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 1: of the scalp to the center of the head. According

591
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: to the San Jose Mercury newspaper and in the crime

592
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: scene photos, there's an axe on the floor in the

593
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: same room as James Wells. But you know, we don't

594
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: know if he tried to use it to defend himself

595
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: or if James brought it. It doesn't seem like it

596
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: was used on James at least.

597
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: Okay, do we know what caliber the ranch hand and

598
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: the colonel were shot with? It was with the thirty eight.

599
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: I don't think they're saying what gun it was, but

600
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: they it had to have been the thirty eight, right

601
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: because they found the forty five on the porch of

602
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: the main house. And I think they're surmising that everything

603
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: happened in the main house first, and then these people

604
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: ran to the cabin to protect themselves, including the colonel.

605
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: So let's assume it's a thirty eight.

606
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, the thirty eight would be consistent with the revolver.

607
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: I would want confirmation that the thirty eight was the

608
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 2: same gun used that was used on the ranch hand

609
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: and the colonel just yeah, so I know, Okay, So

610
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: James is likely using this thirty eight and both inside

611
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 2: the residences outside the residence. And now the question is

612
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: is he also the one that is using the forty

613
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 2: five that's found and used on the victim inside the house,

614
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: or do we have a second shooter that has subsequently

615
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: run off.

616
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: Let's keep going and I'll tell you because there's a

617
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,319
Speaker 1: myriad of methods of murder happening. I didn't mean that

618
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: to be a little but that's what's happening here. There's

619
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of different weapons used. Okay,

620
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: so we know that James Wells, the twenty two year old,

621
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: is shot five times with two different guns, the thirty

622
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: eight and the forty five on the floor of the

623
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: downstairs bedroom. So they're doing just what you're doing. They're

624
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: sweeping from floor to floor, room to room. They find

625
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: the body of the colonel's wife, who would be Hattie's stepmother,

626
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: and of course you know James's mother in law. They

627
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: find the body of Ada, and she's fifty three. She

628
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: had been struck several times with the sharp side of

629
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: the axe, and her skull had been crushed by the

630
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: blunt end. So now we've got three different weapons, and

631
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: we know that the axe was left there because you know,

632
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: it killed Ada, and.

633
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: The axe is found downstairs.

634
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: Right next to James.

635
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 2: Hey, you know, I think it's more questions on my side,

636
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 2: and maybe they'll be answered when I take a look

637
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: at the photos. But with Ada, she is sleep in

638
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: her bed at the time she's being hit with the acts.

639
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 2: Would the colonel have been in bed with her, sleeping

640
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: with her? And I'm assuming it's James, But right now

641
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 2: that's just an assumption. Did James go in with the

642
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,799
Speaker 2: acts with the intent to take out the colonel and

643
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: his wife and then ends up confronting him at some

644
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 2: place in the residence. But obviously that sounds like there's

645
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: a struggle downstairs. And is James armed? Has he armed

646
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 2: himself ahead of time with two different guns and uses

647
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 2: both guns on James. You know, the trajectories through James

648
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: as you described them, suggest that James is being shot

649
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: while he is moving. You know, victims often don't just

650
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: stand in an anatomic position while they're being shot. They're

651
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 2: often ducking and weaving and running, and so trajectories can

652
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 2: be from front to back, back to front up, you know.

653
00:36:55,000 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 2: So that's all part of reconstructing what's going on. And

654
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: again I'm still not convinced that there isn't a second

655
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 2: offender that's assisting, you know, the use of two weapons

656
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: during this very dynamic aspect with Weller is James got

657
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 2: a forty five and one hand and a thirty eight

658
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 2: in the other, and it's like this cowboy shoot. That's odd,

659
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 2: And somehow the acts gets downstairs.

660
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in a little bit, I'll tell you what

661
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: to share of things happened. But let's go on because

662
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 1: there are more bodies. So now we've got Bob the

663
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: ranch hand, we've got the colonel dead, we've got a

664
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 1: step son that's dead, and we've got the colonel's wife

665
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: who's dead. So we're up to four. The men go

666
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:40,720
Speaker 1: upstairs and in the upstairs bedroom they find Hattie, the wife,

667
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: who was twenty six, and she's lying on a cot.

668
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 1: She had been strangled and her neck was broken. And

669
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: then on the floor nearby is a woman named Minnie Schessler.

670
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: She was a household servant. She was twenty eight. She

671
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: had been struck several times with both end of the acts.

672
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: And just like Ada the mother, her skull had been

673
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 1: crushed too. So he's killed his wife and he's killed

674
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: the domestic servant also, who was sleeping next to her,

675
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: you know, in the same and adjoining room.

676
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that Hattie, his wife, the one he

677
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 2: has the most personal connection with, is strangled. The strangulation

678
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: is a very personal type of act of violence, and

679
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: there's a reason why, you know, sexually motivated, fantasy motivated offenders,

680
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: many of them have the preference to strangle. They may

681
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: do other things to the victim, but often strangulation is

682
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 2: a component of the method of violence because that is

683
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: that connection, that physical connection. So we've got the two women,

684
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: Hattie and the household servant, but they're sleeping in the

685
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: same room.

686
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: Right, because there's a baby, remember, yeah.

687
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 2: And so what's going on with the baby.

688
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: Well, my fear was, of course, that he had killed

689
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: his son. But remember he did ask that question, what

690
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 1: happens if everyone in the family is wiped out of

691
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: the attorney, would my son inherit everything? So he in

692
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: fact did not hurt his son. Percy. He's three weeks old.

693
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: He is the only survivor in the main house. I mean,

694
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: good lord.

695
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, and obviously you know James conversation with

696
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 2: the attorney about if his son would inherit, if everybody,

697
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 2: all these intermediaries that could be beneficiaries of the colonel's

698
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: will were wiped out. So he had schemed ahead of time,

699
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 2: and it appears that he, you know, probably started with

700
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: Hattie and the servant and then went into where the

701
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: colonel I'm assuming where the colonel and his wife would

702
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,760
Speaker 2: be with this axe trying to use a relatively silent

703
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 2: method to kill and at some point the colonel is

704
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 2: able to escape if the colonel and the wife were

705
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: in this room together, and that right now you haven't

706
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: said one way or the other if that's the case,

707
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: but just the logical sequence is now the colonel somehow

708
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: is able to escape, and it appears that weller, whether

709
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 2: he comes upstairs and confronts James as he's tried to

710
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 2: figure out, you know, there's some commotion going on, or

711
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 2: he's downstairs and James comes down with the acts, and somehow,

712
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: some way, James and or a second offender have the

713
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: firearms and there is a struggle. You mentioned the smash

714
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: guitar sounds like there's furniture overturned, but ultimately, you know,

715
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: and the trajectories indicates that Weller is moving and he's

716
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: shot by two guns during this dynamic shooting event. And

717
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: then right now, the only thing that we know from

718
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 2: witnesses or the only person we know that's involved in

719
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 2: chasing down these potential witnesses is James, and he's armed

720
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 2: with a revolver, assuming it's the same thirty eight that

721
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: was used on Weller, and that's where you know, if

722
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: the colonel's out there, which he is, that's the primary target.

723
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: But James is also now having to eliminate witnesses. And

724
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 2: then he escapes. He gets on this horse and rides off,

725
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 2: and you know, obviously there's going to be a huge

726
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: man hunt for James. He would never be able to

727
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: directly benefit from these homicides in terms of the financial aspects,

728
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: but at some point in his mind, if his son

729
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 2: is the one that ultimately inherits this wealth from this

730
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: agricultural magnet, that maybe he comes back into his son's

731
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 2: life secretly, you know, to be able to enjoy the

732
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: financial assets. I've got to think that he's thinking that.

733
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 2: But the interesting psychology to me is there's no question

734
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: James is a scammer. He's interested in and committing crimes

735
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 2: for financial means. But you know, the killing of the

736
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 2: chickens out of anger. You know he has a pathology

737
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: inside of him that is likely a predictor for this

738
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: type of violence. And so is there some other type

739
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: of gratification he's getting by committing this mass homicide?

740
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:24,880
Speaker 1: Boy, I don't know. I'm going to show you the

741
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: photos in a second, because I think we're at the photos.

742
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: So I've got three things, and you just tell me

743
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: what order you want. I've got all the photos, I've

744
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,280
Speaker 1: got the sheriff who's now interviewed a very frantic George

745
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: to get a better idea of the timeline, which I

746
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: think we'll ask answer some of your questions about what

747
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 1: order things happened in. And then I have a very cryptic,

748
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: mysterious clue left behind in Hattie's room. So those are

749
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: your three options.

750
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me see the photos first.

751
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 1: All right, let's do it.

752
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 2: And I won't dwell two log on them, but I

753
00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 2: do want to see if there's anything significant that to

754
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: change my initial thoughts on what happened and what transpired.

755
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:06,760
Speaker 1: Okay, here we go. Let me start at the top.

756
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 1: This is where Hattie and the domestic servant were in

757
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: the upstairs bedroom. I know these are not great, but

758
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 1: you could see a woman on the ground, and then

759
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: I can see one on the bed. What do you

760
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 1: think It's hard to.

761
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: Tell, Well, it is hard to tell, but I do see.

762
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: You know. What I'm looking at is a black and

763
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 2: white photo that's taken from what appears to be the

764
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: bedroom doorway, looking in diagonally across, and you could see

765
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: against the far wall the part of what appears to

766
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 2: be the equivalent of a twin sized bed, and then

767
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: in the middle of the room appears to be the cot.

768
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 2: There is a feet of that can be seen underneath

769
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 2: this comforter of the woman that's laying on this diagonally,

770
00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 2: and what I can't see is her upper body completely

771
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: covered except for her feet. And then the woman that's

772
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 2: laying on the floor between the bed and the cot.

773
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 2: The only thing that can be seen really is from

774
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 2: her waist down. Looks like her clothing are on. Looks

775
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: like she has socks on minimally, if not shoes, but

776
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 2: can't see anything just due to the cot being in

777
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 2: the way, it's significant with the woman on the bed

778
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: is completely covered, that's not likely how this woman is sleeping,

779
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,920
Speaker 2: whether it's Hattie or the servant. So when an offender

780
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: takes the time to cover a victim's body, that is

781
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 2: behaviorally significant. Often the offender has got a personal connection

782
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 2: to that victim doesn't want to look at what he

783
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 2: has done to that victim. Sometimes could be a matter

784
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: of remorse. There are times when victims are covered in

785
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: order to kind of hide them, so it delays discovery

786
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: if somebody were to poke their head. Obviously, if somebody

787
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: poked their head into this room, they would know something's

788
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: wrong here. So that's interesting, but it doesn't necessarily alter

789
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 2: what I think happened. It appears that James went in

790
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 2: and targeted both Hattie and the servant, and Hattie being strangled,

791
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: that there is a more personal connection between the offender

792
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: and the victim, and that just makes sense knowing their relationship.

793
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: When we're at the end of these photos, what I'm

794
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: going to want to know from you is how was

795
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: one person able to do all of this? Because I'll

796
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,719
Speaker 1: tell you now, Paul, there's no indication anybody else was

797
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: involved except James. We don't know if that's true or not,

798
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: but we just don't have any indication anybody else did this.

799
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: It just seems like a lot. But when we get

800
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,399
Speaker 1: to the timeline, that might answer some questions for you.

801
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: Just to give an example, think of Ted Bundy and

802
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: the sorority house.

803
00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know.

804
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,760
Speaker 2: People are sleeping, they're vulnerable, you know. James initially starts

805
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 2: out with an axe, you know, and strangulation, So if

806
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 2: done right, there would be very little you know, sounds

807
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 2: alerting other potential victims.

808
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 1: Here's the second photo, and of course it notes very

809
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: badly damaged. But it's better nutting, is what I say.

810
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: So this is where the mother was in the downstairs bedroom,

811
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: and I'm assuming that the figure on the floor that's

812
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: covered up it must be her mother. Maybe rigor has

813
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,120
Speaker 1: happened and her knees are up, or it could be

814
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: completely wrong. I don't know.

815
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you say badly damaged photo, the photo

816
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: itself appears to have a damage to it.

817
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, water maybe or something.

818
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, it almost looks like it's you know, maybe yeah,

819
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 2: some sort of corrosive god on it at some point.

820
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: But in this again, another black and white photo. From

821
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 2: what I can see, there is a bed. This is

822
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: also a photo that looks like it's taken from the

823
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,799
Speaker 2: entrance into the bedroom. And then on the floor is

824
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:00,800
Speaker 2: the victim's body that is also covered up with sheets.

825
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: And now we may be dealing with a situation to

826
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: prior to the photo being taken. You know, the responders

827
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: were the ones that are covering up the victim's body

828
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: just out of respect, which does happen. We discouraged that

829
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: today because that contaminates the scene, but that may be

830
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 2: what's going on here. I can almost maybe see a

831
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: hand sticking out on the floor. But because she's covered

832
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: up and the damage of this photo, it really doesn't

833
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 2: inform me of anything. It's just it's interesting. She's on

834
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 2: the floor. Was she awake you know? When James went in,

835
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 2: was there a confrontation? Did he pull her off the bed?

836
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: And we don't know for sure if did the colonel

837
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 2: and his wife sleep together or did they have separate bedrooms.

838
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: This looks separate to me. I mean that does not

839
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: look like a large bed. But you know, I'll give

840
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: you a hint about the timeline. George tells the sheriff.

841
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: We were not home when this happened. We were out

842
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: and about at that meeting. So he has this to

843
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 1: his wife, Mini, the servant, his mother in law, and

844
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: the twenty two year old stepson. It sounds like kind

845
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 1: of without I don't think James Wells was at this meeting,

846
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 1: but I'll have to double check. I don't see blood

847
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: on the bed, so unless somebody changed the sheets, it

848
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: sounds like she was up when this happened. I mean,

849
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: what do you think. It's hard to tell with a

850
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: black and white photo, but I don't see blood on

851
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 1: the bed.

852
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing anything on the sheets, but I you know,

853
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 2: we don't know. I can't say for sure, but you know,

854
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 2: her body being on the floor would tend to suggest

855
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 2: that she likely was at some point upright drug off

856
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 2: the bed. You know, who knows who news. But this

857
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 2: room does not look like it's shared between husband and wife.

858
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 2: That bed just doesn't look like it's large enough for

859
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 2: the two people to sleep together, at least comfortably. And

860
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: you know, this starts to suggest, if we know, the

861
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,799
Speaker 2: colonel has to be a target at the beginning of this,

862
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: and so James takes advantage of the colonel being at

863
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: that meeting, wipes out the three women and is probably

864
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 2: lying in wait for the colonel to come home.

865
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: Well, it gets more interesting. Let's go down to these

866
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: next set of photos. So I don't think we have

867
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: a photo of James Wells. Who's the steps, But this

868
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: is the room. I mean, these are huge rooms. This

869
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: is a big house. This is a photo of the

870
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: dining room where James Wells died. So just look at

871
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: the scope of this room. It's pretty big, especially for

872
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, eighteen hundred standards.

873
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it most certainly is. And you know what

874
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,959
Speaker 2: I'm seeing in this photo is you see the dining

875
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 2: room table right in the middle. There appears to be

876
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,560
Speaker 2: what appeared to be double doors. At the far end

877
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 2: appears to be something that I would classify as like

878
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: a curio style cabinet with one of the upper cabinet

879
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 2: doors open. And that's interesting to me. Is this something

880
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: that you know, trinkets? You know, what do you call it? Schlotchkes?

881
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: I think it's thank you watch?

882
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. No, But also oftentimes this

883
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,319
Speaker 2: type of cabinet is where firearms are kept. So is

884
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 2: this the open cabinet door suggestive of you know, James

885
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,840
Speaker 2: comes down with an axe and is confronted with this

886
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 2: other adult male and knows exactly where guns are and

887
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,520
Speaker 2: goes to the cabinet. There's dishes on the floor, some

888
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 2: of them may look broken, so there does appear to

889
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: be some sort of a struggle. And then you have

890
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: James Weller being killed here with the firearms. So that

891
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 2: would be one thing, you know, from a just confirmation

892
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 2: of talking to the survivors, is okay, where whose guns

893
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 2: are these? Or would they have been kept inside the

894
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 2: house just to help reconstruct the offender's movements.

895
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: Everybody had guns in the eighteen hundred, so I'm sure

896
00:50:57,760 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: James had guns, and I'm sure you're right the colonel,

897
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 1: especially being a Confederate soldier, he would have had guns everywhere. Also,

898
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: let me go down here. This is I think the

899
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 1: most gruesome photo. This is not where it happened, but

900
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: this is where they piled the bodies. So this is

901
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 1: the colonel and then Bob risco and then the step son.

902
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 1: And it says, you know, of course the colonel and

903
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,359
Speaker 1: Briscoe dotta outside the house and they were brought in

904
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: and laid next to the step son. And the axe

905
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: is also in the photo. You see it at the

906
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 1: top of their heads. So we don't know if James

907
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,879
Speaker 1: left the axe there or if it was put there.

908
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: Or obviously that there was not a lot of information

909
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:44,160
Speaker 2: regarding the crime itself with with these bodies being so moved. Yeah,

910
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 2: you know, basically, I'm looking at a photo of these

911
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: three men. They're all lying face up covered and they're covered,

912
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 2: and so that would suggest that the other bodies upstairs,

913
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 2: of the women, were not covered by James, the offender,

914
00:51:55,600 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 2: but by the responders. Yeah, the description the witness statements

915
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: is so much more important in terms of understanding the

916
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 2: sequence of the shootings and what could be discerned from

917
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: this photo.

918
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: Yep, I agree. I'll have another photo to shar in

919
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: a second, but first let's talk about what the sheriff

920
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: said about what he thinks the sequence of events were

921
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: based on what George has told him. And I think

922
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: the witness was helpful, the Elsie Ross who came at

923
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: the sound of gunshots, But I think George is the

924
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: most helpful because he can really help with the timeline.

925
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: So the sheriff comes and he gets there a little

926
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,040
Speaker 1: bit after all of this happens. He finds the three

927
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: women are found to be rigid, so they've already hit rigor,

928
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: which he says that he believes that they were killed

929
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: several hours before the men even got home. George says,

930
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 1: we all went to that anti Catholic meeting and they

931
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: didn't get home until midnight. But James got home around ten,

932
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: So there's two hours there where their best guess is

933
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 1: that he killed everybody in the main house. Does that

934
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: make sense to you?

935
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 2: It does? What time of year is this?

936
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 1: So it's end of May and California.

937
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 2: Okay, so end of May in California, even in the

938
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 2: South Bay, you know, it can get relatively warm during

939
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 2: the evening time. There isn't a description on you know,

940
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 2: how much rigorous present is it? Just in the fingers,

941
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 2: you know, the smaller muscles. Has it progressed to the

942
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 2: larger arms, you know, the full body? But I think

943
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 2: the sheriff is spot on is that the victims had

944
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,000
Speaker 2: been dead for a period of time prior to the

945
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 2: men being killed.

946
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I think is interesting is,

947
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:44,799
Speaker 1: let me tell you what George says here. So it

948
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 1: sounds like the steps son went to the meeting, but

949
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 1: he does not sound like he's involved with all of

950
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 1: the chaos that's been happening. So I think, let me

951
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 1: go through this and then maybe you'll help me get

952
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: some clarity here. And then there's a surprise piece of

953
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 1: evidence that's a little shocking to me that I'll bring

954
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: up in a minute. So between the crime scene and

955
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: George and Elsie Ross, the man who responded, the sheriff

956
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,080
Speaker 1: thinks this is what happens. He says that on the

957
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,919
Speaker 1: night of the murders, the colonel and the step son

958
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: and George the farm hand all go to this anti

959
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: Catholic meeting and that James Dunham was out doing something separately.

960
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: He came home about nine, and what he believes is

961
00:54:30,239 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: that about an hour later, James goes upstairs to the

962
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: bedroom where Hattie is and Minnie is there. And according

963
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 1: to what the San Francisco call says, they believe all

964
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,840
Speaker 1: this is pieced together from what the sheriff is telling them.

965
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: They think James the first thing he does is strangles

966
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: and gags Hattie by shoving some clothes in her mouth

967
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: while she lies on the cot next to the baby.

968
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: So I think the figure that was covered up was Hattie.

969
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 1: And this is the sheriff giving a little bit of information.

970
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,359
Speaker 1: But the reporter came to the crime scene later that day,

971
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: and that's what the reporter thinks. It looks like James

972
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: broke Hattie's neck. That's what the corner had said. So

973
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: during the struggle, it sounds like Minnie quickly got dressed

974
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:21,440
Speaker 1: and ran into the room. She was in an adjoining room,

975
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: and that's when James attacks her with an axe. He

976
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:27,760
Speaker 1: strikes her several times with the sharp end of the axe,

977
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 1: crushes her skull, and it sounds like that he's also

978
00:55:32,239 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: shoved some clothes into her mouth to keep her quiet.

979
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,880
Speaker 1: I mean, this just sounds horrific. What's happening right now?

980
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's taking out the victims. You know, he strangles's wife.

981
00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 2: You know, the broken neck is unusual. Really, Yeah, that's

982
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 2: that's rarely seen.

983
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

984
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not sure how he would have done it,

985
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 2: if he would have just put her in you know,

986
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 2: some sort of headhold and snapped her neck. And it's

987
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 2: also you know, what is the sequence. He's likely not

988
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 2: breaking her neck while she's just laying there on the cot, right,

989
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 2: So does he initially confront her while she's standing up.

990
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm envisioning, you know, he goes into the

991
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 2: room and she turns her back on him and not

992
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 2: expecting that there's any intent on James's part to hurt her.

993
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 2: And then as soon as you know, her back's to him,

994
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 2: he grabs her and maybe during the process of trying

995
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: to strangle her with a choke hold, you know, ends

996
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 2: up breaking her neck and has the axe. You know,

997
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 2: he strangles her and and the servant comes in. He

998
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 2: uses the axe on the servant. Of course, the insertion

999
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 2: of the clothes. Oftentimes these offenders, you know, they're naive

1000
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 2: to how to kill and if somebody's actually dead, and

1001
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 2: so you know, the insertion of the clothes doesn't sound

1002
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: like this is occurring while they're alive. So you know,

1003
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 2: he's just doing something just as a safeguard in case,

1004
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, they happen to come to just in

1005
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 2: order to still have this kind of this shroud of silence,

1006
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: if you will, that he can operate within.

1007
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,359
Speaker 1: So the sheriff says that while James is killing his

1008
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: wife and the domestic servant, Ada is downstairs and Bob

1009
00:57:19,840 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 1: brisco is by himself in the cabin. So this is again,

1010
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: you know, the next day essentially where the sheriff is

1011
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: trying to get information out of a very shaken George

1012
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: being the only one who survived. So what George believes

1013
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: in what the sheriff believes happened is after It sounds

1014
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: like Pollet started with his wife. He strangles her, he

1015
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 1: has an axe. When Many comes in, he attacks many.

1016
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 1: Then he goes downstairs and Ada is there. So here's

1017
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: where things get a little bit confusing. It sounds like

1018
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: this stuff happened between ten o'clock and midnight. The men

1019
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: are gone, with the exception of Bob Briscoe, who's you know,

1020
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 1: in the cabin. So the step son, James, the colonel,

1021
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: and then George. These three guys are gone. So after

1022
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: he kills his mother in law, that's the third person

1023
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: in the house who's killed. James starts rummaging through all

1024
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 1: different parts of the house. It sounds like he's packing

1025
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: up cash, he's packing up his belongings. He's focusing, according

1026
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 1: to the family, where they were able to see what

1027
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: he took, focusing on letters and photographs of himself, and

1028
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: a newspaper reporter said, well, Obviously, he's trying to make

1029
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 1: his identification more difficult by taking these photographs so they

1030
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: can't send these out to newspapers everywhere, So he's trying

1031
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: to be smart. It sounds like he's getting ready to leave.

1032
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 1: Here's my question. The three men, the step son, the colonel,

1033
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: and then the farmhand George, all get home around midnight,

1034
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: so I don't know if they surprised him and he

1035
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 1: reacted or if he was laying in wait, because the

1036
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: colonel walks through the door and he says that the

1037
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: three men returned about midnight. The colonel told George to

1038
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: open the door and the back windows to the barn,

1039
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 1: which is near the cabin, and that's why George ended

1040
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: up where the barn is is, because the colonel told him,

1041
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:35,919
Speaker 1: don't come in the main house or do the cabin,

1042
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 1: go straight to the barn and open up the windows

1043
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: because it was maybe presumably warm. Then the colonel opens

1044
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: the front door and steps inside, and that's where he

1045
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: is confronted with an axe with one blow to the

1046
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: side of the head, and then he runs, and then

1047
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: the step son follows the colonel into the house and

1048
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: James drops the axe and picks up the gun and

1049
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: shoots him five times, and it says that a short

1050
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: but terrific fight followed. The witnesses of which are broken furniture,

1051
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: a guitar, crush to fragments, torn clothes, blood over everything,

1052
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 1: a track leading through the hall to two rooms, at

1053
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: the end of which the body of Jimmy Wells was

1054
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: found with five bullets, one passing clear through and into

1055
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 1: the floor. This is rage. I'm not sure this is

1056
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: just eliminating witnesses. What do you think at this point?

1057
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 2: I think it is. I mean, the target is the colonel.

1058
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 2: There's a lot of emotions that are involved, you know,

1059
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 2: with the colonel, and you know, the whole financial motive

1060
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 2: is the undercurrent to all of this. You know, now

1061
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 2: he's dealing with James, this other adult male. For me,

1062
01:00:45,920 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 2: what's interesting is the use of the two guns. That

1063
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 2: that is unusual and I'm wondering was this a situation

1064
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 2: or he grabbed one gun. James grabbed one gun, fired

1065
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 2: a couple of times, and then it jammed on him.

1066
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 2: It stopped firing, and now he had to go grab

1067
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 2: the thirty eight. And James is, you know, fleeing, is

1068
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: trying to get away, and then eventually is executed. You know,

1069
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: the bullet going down into the floor, likely under James's body,

1070
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 2: which is commonly what we see when somebody's laying on

1071
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: the floor being shot. You know, he's he's just laying

1072
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,560
Speaker 2: there being executed. I didn't realize that the colonel had

1073
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 2: any injuries to show a blow from the axe, And

1074
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 2: that is important sequencing information because we know the axe

1075
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,400
Speaker 2: is inside the house. But now everything flows, you know,

1076
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 2: the colonel flows outside, the step son is taken care

1077
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 2: of inside, and so now James, armed with the thirty eight,

1078
01:01:41,000 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 2: goes after the colonel, but also recognizes that there's other witnesses,

1079
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 2: the ranch hands, you know, so he's trying to take

1080
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 2: care of everybody, and now he's armed with a firearm

1081
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 2: to be able to do that.

1082
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: So the shots that George Shable hears while he's in

1083
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: the bar and opening up the doors at the colonel's orders,

1084
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:03,400
Speaker 1: it sounds like are the ones probably killing James Wells.

1085
01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: So the colonel gets out of the house, he runs

1086
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 1: towards the cabin. He gets inside the cabin where Bob

1087
01:02:10,680 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: Briscoe is asleep, is woken up, and this is where

1088
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: we start the beginning of the story where they've kind

1089
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,360
Speaker 1: of barricaded themselves in the cabin. He's firing through the

1090
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 1: cabin door, trying to hit whoever it is, and then

1091
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 1: these two men ultimately end up dead. And this is

1092
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 1: how George ends up in the barn. You know, at

1093
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: the beginning of the story, we were really seeing it

1094
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: from the witnesses point of view, Elsie Ross, and he

1095
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,000
Speaker 1: knew that there was a surviving ranch hand in the barn.

1096
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: When all of this was over, George came out. So

1097
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: you know, now we have, I think a very clear

1098
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 1: picture of what happened. And then the police, the investigators

1099
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 1: are saying, let's go find this guy because this is

1100
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:00,439
Speaker 1: someone who has slaughtered an entire family. And I left

1101
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 1: behind Paul a really interesting clue and I want to know.

1102
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,720
Speaker 1: This comes out of thin air for me, so you

1103
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,280
Speaker 1: tell me what you think about this. They go upstairs

1104
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: and they go to Hattie's room, which she shared with James,

1105
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: and they see a note and the note says, please

1106
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: say goodbye for me to my dear mother, brother, and stepfather. Period.

1107
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 1: Hattie period. Oh right, is it going to crack the case?

1108
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: We don't know. But the sheriff is trying to figure out.

1109
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 1: Was this written because Hattie knew her husband was going

1110
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: ballistic and maybe felt like she was in danger, maybe

1111
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:47,600
Speaker 1: he was threatening her. Was it written under duress or

1112
01:03:47,640 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 1: did James write it? I don't know. I mean, now

1113
01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: that you know the sequence of events where I think

1114
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 1: it started with Hattie and then everybody else was like

1115
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 1: collateral honestly, But what do you think about this note?

1116
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 1: And I have a picture of the note Please say

1117
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 1: goodbye for me to my dear mother who would be

1118
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 1: dead shortly, brother and stepfather Hattie.

1119
01:04:06,600 --> 01:04:09,840
Speaker 2: My initial thoughts on this is that James wrote this

1120
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 2: and either this was an attempt at a suicide letter

1121
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 2: or he was going to make Hattie disappear and have

1122
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 2: people think that she had run off.

1123
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that most of the experts at

1124
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 1: the time agree with you. Here's the note and someone

1125
01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 1: said it looks like a nervous hand wrote it, which

1126
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 1: I think no matter who wrote it, probably would be

1127
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 1: the case. And I think most people do think that

1128
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 1: this is a forgery. So if that's true, if we

1129
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: go with that theory that he wrote the note, what

1130
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,280
Speaker 1: was the plan because this does not seem like the

1131
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 1: kind of note that supports the crime scene, which is

1132
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: just a massacre of this entire family and he's not

1133
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 1: trying to cover any of it up. Did something change

1134
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 1: to change plans?

1135
01:05:00,880 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, what changed was the dynamics of committing the crime.

1136
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 2: You know. We know we have his statements to this

1137
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 2: lawyer which would suggest that he possibly had been scheming

1138
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:16,320
Speaker 2: up to this point to eliminate these primary individuals who

1139
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 2: would be beneficiaries of the will. However, there's always the

1140
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 2: possibility that he had different intentions and possibly he thought,

1141
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 2: maybe I could while everybody's gone. When I say everybody,

1142
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:34,680
Speaker 2: the men are gone, he would be able to kill

1143
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 2: Hattie and either hide her make her disappear. And then

1144
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:44,080
Speaker 2: during the commission of killing her, he's now being confronted

1145
01:05:44,120 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 2: by the servant and things are starting to spiral out

1146
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:49,760
Speaker 2: of control. He now has to go in and kill

1147
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 2: the step mom and gets into a fight with the

1148
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 2: step son. So this is what happens is sometimes offenders

1149
01:05:57,680 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: think I'm going to do this, this, and this, and

1150
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 2: then during the act, due to the resistance of the

1151
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 2: victims are other variables, things go differently, and so now

1152
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 2: James is in a scramble, you know, and this is

1153
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:15,800
Speaker 2: where he is eliminating everybody, and this is now a

1154
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:20,520
Speaker 2: cluster in his life to try to get this done

1155
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 2: and get out of town. So I think that that

1156
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,640
Speaker 2: note is very important. Now, was he going to kill

1157
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 2: her in a way to make it look like a

1158
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 2: suicide and she fought back to a point where her

1159
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 2: neck gets broken and he strangles her. Well, there's just

1160
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 2: there's just no way that would be believable as a suicide.

1161
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,520
Speaker 2: So I think he was probably intending to kill her

1162
01:06:43,880 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 2: and make her disappear. And she had left a note behind.

1163
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a huge property, so he could have

1164
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 1: stashed her anywhere or gone somewhere else. This is an

1165
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: odd little note. He was an avid cyclist, so he knew,

1166
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 1: aside from the horse and cart, could certainly go places

1167
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:07,040
Speaker 1: quickly and go in sort of rugged area. So the

1168
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: once the police have these theories, they start looking for

1169
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 1: him and they find a couple of different things. First,

1170
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 1: they put up a reward. The governor says, I'll put

1171
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: up one thousand dollars for the bounty of him, and

1172
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:23,840
Speaker 1: that's about thirty six thousand dollars. Now, various rewards go up,

1173
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,520
Speaker 1: and this motivates people to find him. People start wanting

1174
01:07:28,600 --> 01:07:32,840
Speaker 1: to know what he has with him, what are his resources.

1175
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: So people who know James believe that he might be

1176
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 1: traveling with fifteen thousand dollars to twenty thousand dollars in cash,

1177
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:42,760
Speaker 1: which is a huge amount of money. That's more than

1178
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: half a million dollars. Now doesn't all appear to be

1179
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:50,400
Speaker 1: coming from the family. But you know, we're not really

1180
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 1: sure where some of that money came from. It sounds

1181
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,880
Speaker 1: like James was pretty shady in general. They find a

1182
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 1: bicycle and some brush near the ranch, and they look

1183
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: and they look and they look, and they never find him.

1184
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:06,440
Speaker 2: Oh really, nope, Oh he got away with it.

1185
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: He got away with it, an awful crime like that,

1186
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,960
Speaker 1: and you've got to assume he's covered in blood. I'm

1187
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 1: sure he had a change of clothing. He thought about this.

1188
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 1: They look everywhere, the mountains of gulches. There were people

1189
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,360
Speaker 1: who said, you know, he probably made it all the

1190
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: way to Mexico, or he took his own life in

1191
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: the mountains. And you know, somebody said that they heard

1192
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:34,679
Speaker 1: a shot of a gun in the mountains. But there's

1193
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:38,880
Speaker 1: no proof. He just vanished, gone in the wind. After

1194
01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 1: all of that, gone in the wind.

1195
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 2: Well, and it would be easy for him just to

1196
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 2: stay in the United States and move a distance away

1197
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,760
Speaker 2: and start living his life. Yep, I know. I think

1198
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 2: there was another case kind of similar that we talked about.

1199
01:08:53,439 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 2: It would be interesting to see if any of his

1200
01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 2: descendants are still alive, because there's a possibility if there's

1201
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:02,200
Speaker 2: a relatives of James from back in the day that

1202
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:07,160
Speaker 2: we can identify the descendants. Could we identify I think

1203
01:09:07,240 --> 01:09:11,839
Speaker 2: at this time, probably great grandchildren, great great grandchildren of James.

1204
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's a show. Yeah, he survived and you know, remarried.

1205
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,640
Speaker 2: To figure out his identity. I mean, that's where we

1206
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 2: have this genealogy tool that could be exploited to figure

1207
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,120
Speaker 2: that out and maybe get an answer, just to see,

1208
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 2: you know, what happened to this guy.

1209
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pretty incredible story and so tragic that

1210
01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:32,160
Speaker 1: there's no justice for this family, or if there is,

1211
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:36,280
Speaker 1: it was self inflicted. We don't talk about the spree killer,

1212
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 1: and I know this wasn't a spree killer, but this

1213
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:44,000
Speaker 1: was so out of control to me, it was just

1214
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 1: like this rampage, and we don't get a lot of

1215
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 1: rampages on this show. So I wanted to see the pattern,

1216
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 1: And that's why I laid it out for you in

1217
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 1: this way. I wanted to see the pattern of how

1218
01:09:55,640 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: somebody's character sort of evolves over time and it just apart,

1219
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 1: and there are all these little clues on the way,

1220
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: and you would never blame the victims, but you can

1221
01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,640
Speaker 1: see clearly that this was someone who was never a

1222
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:13,160
Speaker 1: good person to begin with, and all of it falls apart.

1223
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,040
Speaker 1: And to have the capability to kill all of these

1224
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:20,639
Speaker 1: people in such a terrible fashion, my goodness.

1225
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 2: You know, his earlier behaviors that we talked about, you know,

1226
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,240
Speaker 2: showed that he had this type of potential for violence.

1227
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 2: You know, that's what I was saying about the killing

1228
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:32,440
Speaker 2: of the chickens. And then he's that schemer, He's that scammer.

1229
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 2: And possibly if he has that much money that he's

1230
01:10:36,000 --> 01:10:38,640
Speaker 2: living off of, then he's not getting it from the

1231
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 2: kernel or his family. He maybe have been committing many

1232
01:10:43,400 --> 01:10:47,680
Speaker 2: other types of financially motivated crimes where he's profiting and

1233
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:52,960
Speaker 2: just squirreling that away. I don't see in this case

1234
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:58,000
Speaker 2: where it's this is not like a spree type killing.

1235
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:03,360
Speaker 2: I see he had a targeted a set of targeted

1236
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 2: victims inside the house, the colonel, probably stepmom, his wife,

1237
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 2: and then the servant and the ranch hands. This is

1238
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 2: where things spiraled out of control on him, and I

1239
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 2: believe that this is where he's just taking the steps

1240
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 2: to eliminate witnesses for self preservation. He's obviously, at least

1241
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 2: on the fly, he's thinking ahead a little bit by

1242
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 2: going and trying to snatch up all the photos of him.

1243
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:37,080
Speaker 2: I bet that wasn't planned. I bet that was just, Oh,

1244
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 2: I need to do this, I have to escape, and

1245
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 2: they can take those photos as you mentioned, and start

1246
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 2: passing him around. Hey have you seen this guy? Have

1247
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,880
Speaker 2: you seen this guy? Because during this timeframe, it's not

1248
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:51,679
Speaker 2: like there's a whole bunch of photos of him spread

1249
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,480
Speaker 2: throughout social media that people could download and start distributing.

1250
01:11:55,560 --> 01:12:00,639
Speaker 2: So he showed some on the fly, forethought, under this

1251
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 2: very intense crime. So he's reasonably bright, even though he

1252
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 2: is an underperformer and a failure to launch type personality.

1253
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: This was just violent massacre that one man could be

1254
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 1: responsible for all of this. I'm sure it just horrified

1255
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 1: his own mother, who told the story about the chickens.

1256
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:27,280
Speaker 1: And then he's gone, and if he did die in

1257
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: the mountains. It was on his own terms, which is

1258
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 1: too bad. So I hate to end on a sad note.

1259
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 1: It made me really appreciate my own family. You know,

1260
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:40,560
Speaker 1: you think of your home as a place of refuge,

1261
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:42,679
Speaker 1: as a place I do, at least, as a place

1262
01:12:42,720 --> 01:12:47,280
Speaker 1: where you're protected. And to think that somebody could come

1263
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:51,120
Speaker 1: in and do all of this, it just I don't know.

1264
01:12:51,320 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 1: And they had guns everywhere. There were guns all over

1265
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 1: the place in that house, so none of it helped.

1266
01:12:56,160 --> 01:13:00,240
Speaker 1: None of it helped. So I definitely thought about my

1267
01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:02,280
Speaker 1: own family when all of this happened, and made me

1268
01:13:02,280 --> 01:13:04,720
Speaker 1: appreciate all of that. So it's a sad story, but

1269
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting criminal pathology thinking about

1270
01:13:08,439 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: the way that this person's getting in his head.

1271
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:14,800
Speaker 2: There most certainly is a pathology. There's an aspect to

1272
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 2: how he is approaching this. I would not be surprised

1273
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 2: if there's some psychopathy that is going on. But yeah,

1274
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:24,280
Speaker 2: I have feeling he got away with this and probably lived,

1275
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:27,640
Speaker 2: you know, for a period of time afterwards. Wouldn't be

1276
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:31,360
Speaker 2: surprised if he committed other violent acts as he moved around.

1277
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 1: You know, we always want to put the victims at

1278
01:13:33,600 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: the forefront. Here, But I do think it's interesting to

1279
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: talk about that aspect of it in history. How again,

1280
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 1: you know, you've worked all of these present day cases

1281
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,880
Speaker 1: and I know older cases too, but president cases. When

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01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 1: you look at this and you think, man, this guy

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01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 1: reminds me of people that I just investigated less than

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01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:56,120
Speaker 1: a decade ago. People have not changed fundamentally, They just haven't,

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01:13:56,479 --> 01:13:58,800
Speaker 1: you know. And to see it and just say, oh,

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01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 1: I can relate to how this guy was a loser

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01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:07,240
Speaker 1: and he was not nice and she was thinking of

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01:14:07,280 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 1: divorce and she was writing in her journal about how

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01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,840
Speaker 1: terrible he was, and look at what happened. You know,

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01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 1: it just feels like, oh my gosh, this could have

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01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: happened in any time period. So anyway, thank you for

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01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 1: listening to this terrible story. I know there was a

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01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:24,120
Speaker 1: lot of violence in here, but I think your insight

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01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:24,720
Speaker 1: was great here.

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01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks for taking the time to present it again,

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01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:29,400
Speaker 2: and I'm looking forward to the next case.

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01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week.

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01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 2: Sounds good.

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01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

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01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 1: and show notes go to exactly rightmedia dot com, slash

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01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:45,160
Speaker 1: Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

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01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:49,719
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,240
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1304
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1305
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:57,120
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardt Stark and Daniel Kramer.

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01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1308
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:06,400
Speaker 1: Baried Bones Pod.

1309
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,439
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1310
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

1311
01:15:11,479 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1312
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

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01:15:17,880 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now