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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We've all just finished celebrating

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Speaker 1: July fourth, celebrating the greatest country in the world, America.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine at the celebration hearing shots ringing out,

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Speaker 1: then screams, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for being with us here at Fox Nation and

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Speaker 1: Serious XM one eleven. Take a listen to this our

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Speaker 1: friends at NBC. From every angle, chaos, confusion, and carnage,

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Speaker 1: July fourth celebration through the center of town transformed into

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Speaker 1: a mass casualty incident Factor shooter Colin Highland Party. Police

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Speaker 1: say the gunman took a sniper like position, firing onto

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Speaker 1: the parade from a roof using a high powered rifle.

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Speaker 1: I picked up my kids and we ran again. I

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Speaker 1: put them in a garbage dumpster, and then I ran

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Speaker 1: back to look for my my partner and her daughter,

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Speaker 1: and I saw people shot on the ground, the attack

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Speaker 1: sending crowd scrambling panic, parents trying to protect their children.

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Speaker 1: Just this horrific pow and then you heard people screaming,

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Speaker 1: bodies down, you know, run for your life. That's what

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Speaker 1: I heard. Joining us right now and All Star Panel.

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Speaker 1: But first, let me go to Lynn Sweet with the

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Speaker 1: Washington Bureau. She is the chief of the Chicago Sun Times.

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Speaker 1: And oh witness Lynn, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: What happened, well, thank you. I am usually in Washington

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Speaker 1: as the Washington bureau chief for the Chicago Sun Times,

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Speaker 1: but on July fourth, I was in this suburb, about

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Speaker 1: thirty miles north of downtown Chicago, just to enjoy the

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Speaker 1: Highland Park Fourth of July parade. I have family here,

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Speaker 1: been coming to this parade for years. There is a

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Speaker 1: hiatus because of COVID. What happened, very briefly is I

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Speaker 1: was at the beginning of the parade, near where the

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Speaker 1: floats were assembling, and all of a sudden, I saw

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Speaker 1: a sea of panicked people running towards me, racing towards me. Somebody,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know what happened? Somebody said a shooter.

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Speaker 1: The enormity of what bat meant did not strike me

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Speaker 1: until a few minutes later when I made my way

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Speaker 1: to the main parade route street called Central Avenue downtown

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Speaker 1: Highland Park, and I saw what no one wants to see.

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Speaker 1: I saw women and men who were wounded, and I

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Speaker 1: saw sad to say, bodies, lots of blood and what

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Speaker 1: the moment that is frozen in time, Nancy, is how

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Speaker 1: people just abandoned everything they had, you know, their summer

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Speaker 1: beach chairs, the blankets, knapsacks, especially baby buggies. Parents usually no,

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Speaker 1: you just don't leave a baby buggy around. But that's

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Speaker 1: how scary the situation must have been that everyone who

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Speaker 1: had a baby in a baby carriage to scrabbed their

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Speaker 1: child and ram with me is Lynn Sweet, the Washington

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Speaker 1: bureau chief for the Chicago Sun Times. Lynn, you just

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Speaker 1: describe something that always struck me when I would go

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Speaker 1: to crime scenes. The smallest things, even in murder cases,

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Speaker 1: would somehow take on a poignancy. I find it hard

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Speaker 1: to describe. Lynne just described a mass shooting scene and

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Speaker 1: she makes her way to it and finds baby buggies

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Speaker 1: party Akutama. They're there for July the fourth. Tell me, Lynn,

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Speaker 1: when you first heard the word shooter? So what you

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Speaker 1: if you're saying? So what went through my mind? I thought?

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Speaker 1: Was this a firecracker? Was it a firework? And even

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Speaker 1: as I was making my way to the main part

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Speaker 1: of the parade, I was thinking, this is a lot

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Speaker 1: of people to be running this scared. If it was

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Speaker 1: just one shot, but it didn't escape me. One shot

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Speaker 1: would have been enough to have sent everybody reeling. The

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Speaker 1: enormity of this being a mass killing with a rapid

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Speaker 1: fire sought like a weapon with a high capacity magazine,

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Speaker 1: which we would know more about later. As I was

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Speaker 1: making my way there and saw all the carnage, I

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Speaker 1: realized how fast this had to happen. And then, you know,

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Speaker 1: some people told me boom, boom, boom, you know about

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Speaker 1: the rapid fire sequence that they heard, and that it's

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Speaker 1: what you know, how fast this destruction can happen, And

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Speaker 1: the point for me, and I wrote this in my

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Speaker 1: column at sun Times dot com. I've been covering massacres

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Speaker 1: since Columbine in nineteen ninety nine, but it's been Washington

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Speaker 1: congressional debate gun laws this time. On this July fourth,

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Speaker 1: I was there. Can I ask you, Lynn, what led

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Speaker 1: you to go toward what was happening and not run away? Nancy.

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Speaker 1: It didn't dawn to me not to and to anyone

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Speaker 1: who's listening, it's just not about me. You don't need

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Speaker 1: to have any fuss about me. It never dawned to

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Speaker 1: me not to do it. It. I just went I've

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Speaker 1: been a reporter a long time. I'm from this community.

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Speaker 1: I understood something terrible what was happening. It just never

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Speaker 1: dawned to me not to go see what happened. I'm

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Speaker 1: just imagining if I had my twins, you know, got

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Speaker 1: boy girl twins at the July fourth festival or parade,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, everybody starts running and screaming.

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Speaker 1: I like my daughter, when she is approached with scary situations,

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Speaker 1: she freezes other people run. Was there anybody left or

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Speaker 1: had was it just cleared out like in a movie?

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Speaker 1: There were people there and one other thing. Again, I

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Speaker 1: do kind of like want to minimize what I did.

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Speaker 1: If I had children with me, I probably would have

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Speaker 1: made sure, you know, depending on the age. If I

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Speaker 1: babies with me, I wouldn't have gone. I'm not silly.

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Speaker 1: You don't do that, Nancy. If you were alone and

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Speaker 1: you were with me, you might have gone too. Well.

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Speaker 1: I would want to find out what was happening and

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Speaker 1: see if anybody was heard them, maybe we could help

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Speaker 1: or something for whatever reason. And so when I was there,

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Speaker 1: the spectators were gone, there were people who were trying.

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Speaker 1: I have vivid images of people leaning over the wounded

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Speaker 1: people who put blankets over the dead, and then some

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Speaker 1: people who surmised that it was over were hanging around watching.

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Speaker 1: But I do the thought did go through my mind

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Speaker 1: that the shooter had not been caught. I asked some

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Speaker 1: law enforcement people who were really in a rush, you know,

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Speaker 1: just I quickly said, it's the shooter here, and they

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Speaker 1: said they don't know. So I was aware that a

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Speaker 1: shot was at large. After shooting scene, I looked around.

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Speaker 1: But I'm there in a professional capacity. Frankly, if I

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Speaker 1: was just not there to work, I don't know why

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Speaker 1: I would have stuck around. You catch a look at

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Speaker 1: what's going on, and then you leave out of prudence,

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Speaker 1: especially the land. And when you think about people like

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Speaker 1: Eric Rudolph, remember him, the Olympic bomber. I was there

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Speaker 1: that night, working in the DA's office the night of

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Speaker 1: the Olympic bombing. I was there when the bomb went

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Speaker 1: off and immediately started taking witness statements and trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out what had happened. Within an hour we were

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Speaker 1: interviewing witnesses. Do you know what he went on to do?

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Speaker 1: Bomb an abortion clinic. My investigator went to the scene

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Speaker 1: of the bombing of the abortion clinic and then he

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Speaker 1: had it rigged, so another explosion would happened, and that

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Speaker 1: shrapnel actually hit my investigator. So you're right if he

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Speaker 1: if the shooter had not been apprehended, there's a huge

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Speaker 1: possibility there can be more killings. Well, here's the thing. Also,

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Speaker 1: at the moment, who knew if this was really a

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Speaker 1: lone gunman, who knew if this was an organized terrorism attack,

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Speaker 1: who knew what? So in terms of how other people responded,

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Speaker 1: who were not directly there to help people, I don't

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Speaker 1: know why they stuck around. There weren't many. Most of

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Speaker 1: the people fled. I thought in the end it was

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Speaker 1: not as chaotic as some people have to described it,

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Speaker 1: only because from my point or view, did it result

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Speaker 1: in everybody leaving quickly? Okay, so you have a little

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Speaker 1: point of view. If everybody leaves quickly, then to me

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Speaker 1: it's over. It by definition can't be the chaotic, even

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Speaker 1: though I understand why people said it who were in

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Speaker 1: the midst of it. A real chaotic thing is when

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Speaker 1: people don't know to leave, can't leave, feel trapped right,

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Speaker 1: can't get away, like in a concert or something. And

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Speaker 1: there you hear in the midst of a mass sheating

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Speaker 1: Lynn Suite that the bureau chief for the Chicago Sun

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Speaker 1: Times in Washington is there in the midst of it.

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Speaker 1: And you just heard one parent hid their children and

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Speaker 1: trash cans. Take a listen to our friends at ABC.

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Speaker 1: We all actually came out for a family outing. My

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Speaker 1: husband works at Gearhead and we brought our three and

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Speaker 1: one year old out, and my in laws were with us,

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Speaker 1: and I was holding my one year old and behind us,

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Speaker 1: I thought there was a sound of fireworks, and seconds

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Speaker 1: later I realized that that's not what it was, So

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Speaker 1: I believe I hit the ground with my daughter, and

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Speaker 1: I remember looking around trying to figure out where the

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Speaker 1: sound was coming from, and I in fact looked up

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Speaker 1: at the neighboring business across the street and saw the

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Speaker 1: shooter on the roof, and I just I screamed that

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Speaker 1: it was a shooter, and I got my daughter and

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Speaker 1: we ran into my husband's store, and I yelled for

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Speaker 1: my son and my mother and father in law, and

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Speaker 1: we all were able to get in safely, as my

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Speaker 1: husband helped a whole bunch of other patrons get away

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Speaker 1: from the danger. One sway with me, who not only

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Speaker 1: the Washington bureau chief Chicago sentis but there at the

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Speaker 1: mass shooting. How many lives had been confirmed claimed as

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Speaker 1: a result of this one guy? As of last night,

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Speaker 1: I was at the briefing that the law enforcement community

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Speaker 1: put together. So far, we have seven dead, six have

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Speaker 1: been identified, dozens injury time stories. With Nancy Grace. Joining

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Speaker 1: me is Lisa Fine Cavalli, a survivor of the Mandalai

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Speaker 1: shooting in Vegas. You can find her. She's a co

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Speaker 1: founder of Route ninety one Strong. Lisa, what is all

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Speaker 1: of this when you're hearing our friend Lynn Sweet described

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Speaker 1: the shooting for all of these lives, which is ripped

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Speaker 1: away for nothing? What is that evoking in you? You know, Nancy?

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Speaker 1: It reminds me of the war zone that opened up

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Speaker 1: in front of twenty two thousand of us at the

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Speaker 1: concert in Vegas, and it was absolutely horrific. And I

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Speaker 1: can only imagine what that was like there because I've

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Speaker 1: lived it myself. Guys, take a listen to our cut

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Speaker 1: five our friends at ABC. I just looked up. It

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Speaker 1: was like a dream I had, Like I was like,

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Speaker 1: this isn't real. That's all I could say to myself

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Speaker 1: is this isn't real. But I needed everybody to know

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Speaker 1: that there was a shooter. So I was just screaming

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Speaker 1: that him. I just, I just I saw a long

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Speaker 1: hair and I saw a gun, and that's all I

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Speaker 1: could tell anybody but I. When I ran in the store,

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Speaker 1: I was just like Tony. I saw him, Tony, I

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Speaker 1: saw him, and it was we just ran down into

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Speaker 1: the basement and we were just shaking and crying. It

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Speaker 1: was horrific. And also from our friends at NBC, doctor

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Speaker 1: David Baum along with doctor Lauren Scheckter, We're at the

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Speaker 1: parade with their families, initially running for safety, then turning

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Speaker 1: back around and treating the wounded. All of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: there was a stampede of people coming and then I

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Speaker 1: realized it was gunshots, and I literally just thought to myself,

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Speaker 1: this is how it's going to end. At least six

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Speaker 1: people shot and killed, more than thirty injured. The doctors

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe what they were seeing. It was quite a

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Speaker 1: horrific scene. As first responders tried to save lives, authorities

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Speaker 1: launched a county wide dragnet looking for the shooter. Now

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Speaker 1: take a list of our friends at WLS. Cellphone video

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Speaker 1: capturing the sound of gunfire during Highland Parks July for

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Speaker 1: the parade. Well, I guy has gotten out this morning.

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Speaker 1: Police say the gunman was perched atop a roof, firing

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Speaker 1: at parade goers who just gathered to celebrate the holiday.

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Speaker 1: Everyone was basically running, screaming, there's a shooter, there's a shooter.

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Speaker 1: Officials say at least six people were killed and more

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Speaker 1: than thirty injured, parade goers taking cover anywhere they could

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Speaker 1: for three hours. Donald Johnson hid in a gas station.

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Speaker 1: There were six or seven children crying their eyes out,

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Speaker 1: and the mothers finally got them settled down by singing

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Speaker 1: the wheels on the best go around and round. This

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Speaker 1: scene is horrific, the thought of mothers hiding with their

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Speaker 1: children trying to calm them down by singing the wheels

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Speaker 1: on the bus go around and over and over and over.

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Speaker 1: To David Katz, a former senior special agent with the DA,

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Speaker 1: founder and CEO of Global Security Group EKE, and active

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Speaker 1: Sheeter response expert David way In, this was all planned

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Speaker 1: out so far at that juncture, they have an ID

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Speaker 1: on a lone shooter, white male, long hair, one gun

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Speaker 1: jump in. Yeah, I mean, and this is just a

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Speaker 1: story that repeats itself sadly, every time we speak about

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Speaker 1: an incident like that, I always make the point that

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Speaker 1: once you once you get further along the investigation, you're

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Speaker 1: going to see what you're going to see, not warning signs,

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Speaker 1: but screaming neon signs that this person announced to the

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Speaker 1: entire world that they were violent, they would act violently.

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Speaker 1: And still despite everything we've seen, despite every single tragic incident,

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Speaker 1: despite hearing stories with mothers and their children, and nothing changes,

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Speaker 1: nothing changes. Did you notice that the witness said the

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Speaker 1: shooter had positioned himself on top of a building. Lisa

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Speaker 1: find Cavalli, who survived the Mandalaid shooting, That's exactly what

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Speaker 1: the Mandalaid shooter did in Vegas. He had everybody trapped,

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Speaker 1: you know, there were concerts going on, nobody can really

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Speaker 1: get out, and he was perched on a high location

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Speaker 1: shooting out of a room. Yeah, it was like just

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Speaker 1: a repeat of what happened almost five years ago, and

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Speaker 1: it is happening over and over and again. And what

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Speaker 1: is really really hitting my soul is these families, these children, mother's,

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Speaker 1: father's grandparents, I mean, families are going to be changed

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Speaker 1: for the rest of their life, the rest of their lives,

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Speaker 1: you know, Lisa. I remember I was in New York,

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Speaker 1: in New York City on September eleven working at Court TV,

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Speaker 1: and for months and months after, for a long time,

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Speaker 1: there was a no flies on over the city. The

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Speaker 1: first time I saw an airplane go over the city,

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Speaker 1: I was on a treadmill. I jumped off the treadmill

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Speaker 1: instinctively and jumped down on the ground. Because once you

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Speaker 1: live through something like that, you're never the same, much

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Speaker 1: less losing your family member, your loved one, a friend

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Speaker 1: in the tragedy, and Dale Carson joining me, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent and call and author.

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Speaker 1: He's at Delcarson Law dot com. Del It's an instinct

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Speaker 1: you never get over. Like Lisa is saying, that feel

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Speaker 1: like you're trapped like a rat. You don't know where

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Speaker 1: the guns are coming from. You're in a crowd, everybody's screaming,

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Speaker 1: everybody's running. You may have your children with you. That's horrible, fancy.

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Speaker 1: When I was in the FBI in Atlanta, I worked

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Speaker 1: on the tactical team, and I can just tell you

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Speaker 1: that these individuals are using history to make their killings

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Speaker 1: even more effective. That elevated shooting position is the most

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Speaker 1: dangerous and the result is that you run towards the shooter,

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Speaker 1: not away from them, because it makes it more difficult

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Speaker 1: to get hit. And they know this. And as we

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Speaker 1: move along here, things are going to get more and

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Speaker 1: more worse difficult with these copycat shootings that emulate what

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Speaker 1: other people has successfully done. And it gets back to

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Speaker 1: the history of these individuals, who, why are they so angry?

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Speaker 1: What's making them behave this way? And there are gonna

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Speaker 1: be neon size, as David Cats just said with Global

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Speaker 1: Security Group, Inc. That nobody picks up until this happens.

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Speaker 1: Take a list of our cut seven, our friends at CBS.

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Speaker 1: Five people died on the scene here, another died at

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Speaker 1: a nearby hospital. And among the dozens of victims people

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Speaker 1: shot here at this Fourth of July parade, the oldest

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Speaker 1: victim eighty five years old, the youngest just eight. A

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Speaker 1: sudden burst of gunfire ten minutes after the start of

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Speaker 1: a Fourth of July parade and parade participants and spectators

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Speaker 1: running for their lives. The police had the gunmen open

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Speaker 1: fire from a nearby rooftop. Might just remember seeing like

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Speaker 1: smoke on the ground. I remember hearing shootings going like

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Speaker 1: that's what, and then reloading and then again and people

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Speaker 1: screaming and running. It was just really traumatizing and scary,

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Speaker 1: a scene of chaos, with lawn chairs, bicycles and strollers

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Speaker 1: left behind scattered along the parade route as people scrambled

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Speaker 1: for safety. To David Katz, a former special agent with

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Speaker 1: d EA, founder CEO Global Security, Inc. You already have

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Speaker 1: one witness saying it was a white male with long

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Speaker 1: hair and a single gun. What should be done in

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Speaker 1: a situation like that to catch the purpose? Well, exactly

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Speaker 1: what was done. This is all leg work. I mean

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Speaker 1: to be running the gun, you're finding the identity, identity purchaser. Then,

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Speaker 1: of course you have cameras. You may have eyewitnesses once

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Speaker 1: the perpetrator gets off the roof. Maybe you have an

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Speaker 1: eyewitness putting putting him in a car, maybe a camera

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Speaker 1: shot putting him in a car. Now you have a license,

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Speaker 1: Now you have a registration. Now you have a camera,

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Speaker 1: a license plate voto. And then of course once you

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Speaker 1: have an identification on a vehicle, well, now it's only

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Speaker 1: a matter of he's riding by, he goes by a

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Speaker 1: police officer, he has he is a license plate reader.

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Speaker 1: He has set a little particular area a Bridgetoler tunnel.

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Speaker 1: So it's only a matter of time before you're going

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Speaker 1: to get a hit on the tag he's driving, or

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Speaker 1: it may deal Carson just be luck. Like with Timothy

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Speaker 1: McVey and the Oklahoma City bombing, he was pulled over

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Speaker 1: on a traffic offense, and as I recall, they found

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Speaker 1: indications of fertilizer and more in his trunk used to

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Speaker 1: create a bomb. That was a fluke. Remember that's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: That was really unusual. But here I understand that civilians

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Speaker 1: actually saw the car, which was fairly notable, and the tag,

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Speaker 1: and we're able to contact law enforcement who then stopped him,

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Speaker 1: finding that he was armed yet again in that vehicle.

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Speaker 1: And lo and behold, who does he turned out to

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Speaker 1: be a rapper? Wanna be take us an hour cut nine.

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Speaker 1: This is the Holland Park Police Chief Lou Jogman. What

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Speaker 1: I can tell you at this moment was approximately fifteen

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Speaker 1: minutes ago, the subject that we were looking for, the

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Speaker 1: person of interest, Robert Kremo the third, was spotted by

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Speaker 1: a North Chicago unit at Buckley and forty one. His vehicle.

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Speaker 1: The vehicle that we were looking for the initiated attempt

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Speaker 1: to initiate a traffic stop on that subject. That subject

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Speaker 1: did flee, A brief pursuit went on. Ultimately they were

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Speaker 1: able to get the subject stopped at Wesley and forty

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Speaker 1: one in Lake Forest. The subject was taken into cuss

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Speaker 1: without incident. So at this point, I again want to

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Speaker 1: reiterate things are moving very quickly as they do unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: and we just want to keep you updated with the

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Speaker 1: most relevant information. The purse of interest is now being

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Speaker 1: taken to the Highland Park Police Department where we're going

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Speaker 1: to begin. You know, the next phase of the investigation

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Speaker 1: is speak with this person to make sure or see

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Speaker 1: if in fact he is connected to this incident. Joining

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Speaker 1: me right now, special guest doctor Jillian Peterson, forensic psychologist,

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Speaker 1: Professor Criminal Justice at Hamlin University and Saint Paul an

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Speaker 1: expert on mass shootings. She is the author of the

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Speaker 1: Violence Project, How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic. We

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Speaker 1: need you now more than ever, Daughter, Jillian Peterson, what

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Speaker 1: do you make of what we know right now about

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Speaker 1: not only the shooting itself, but the shooter. Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the things that are emerging about this perpetrator

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Speaker 1: are really similar to things that we see again and

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Speaker 1: again and again. We studied one hundred and eighty of

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Speaker 1: these perpetrators. So the fact that he was twenty one,

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Speaker 1: the fact that he's posting things online really interested in violence,

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Speaker 1: has a history of threatening his family members, has a

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Speaker 1: history of suicidality and attempting suicide. A lot of this

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Speaker 1: stuff is really consistent posting on these really dark message boards.

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Speaker 1: What's a little different in this case is actually the

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Speaker 1: fact that he wore a disguise. Because usually the traitor

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Speaker 1: wants to be known for this, They want their name

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Speaker 1: to make the history books. So throwing on a disguise

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Speaker 1: and leaving the scene is actually something we haven't really

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Speaker 1: seen before. Tell me what you find the most curious

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Speaker 1: or probative about his postings online. You know, some of

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Speaker 1: these message boards online are so dark and so violent

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Speaker 1: it's hard to pick out sort of which specific posts

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Speaker 1: is the one that's going to lead to someone actually

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Speaker 1: doing this. But we do know amongst these perpetrators, they

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Speaker 1: study each other, they identify with previous perpetrators, they post

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Speaker 1: violent content, and it's so when you look back, you

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Speaker 1: can just see all these glaring warning signs, like why

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Speaker 1: didn't somebody pick up on this in his life? When

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Speaker 1: you say dark websites, what do you mean by that exactly?

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Speaker 1: I think he was posting on one that's a message

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Speaker 1: board where people posts actual images and videos of sort

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Speaker 1: of death and murderer and carnage, just really kind of

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Speaker 1: awful stuff that it's hard to imagine anyone wanting to

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Speaker 1: go on and look at for fun. But he was

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Speaker 1: a really frequent poster on that discussion board. His name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Bobby E. Cremo the Third and he performed

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Speaker 1: as a rapper who went by the name Awake. His

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Speaker 1: recent music videos include depictions of mass murder. Now, you know,

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Speaker 1: doctor Jillian Peterson, if that's not a red flag, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what it is. I fully agree with you.

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Speaker 1: It's part of it is. I think it's we think

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Speaker 1: of these as these scary outsiders. So it's hard for parents, neighbors, teachers, friends,

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Speaker 1: to think this person posting the stuff could actually do this.

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Speaker 1: Somebody I know could be the person who actually does this,

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Speaker 1: and so we tend to dismiss or explain away all

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Speaker 1: these really clear warning sides, being like posting depictions of

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Speaker 1: mass shootings in your music video. His most recent video

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Speaker 1: was posted to YouTube and it shows him standing there

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Speaker 1: in the aftermath of a bloody school shooting. It ends

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Speaker 1: with him draping himself in the American flag. And I

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Speaker 1: want to circle back with you, doctor Peterson about that

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Speaker 1: video being draped in the American flag and a mass

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Speaker 1: shooting and this shooting that occurred on July the fourth.

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Speaker 1: Another music video is a cartoon depiction of a man

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Speaker 1: wearing a shirt with his YouTube channel's logo on it,

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Speaker 1: but he's holding a long gun and he gets shot

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Speaker 1: by police. It goes on and on and on. He

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Speaker 1: had his own discord server where people would chat with him,

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Speaker 1: and it was full of nihilistic police themes. It goes

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Speaker 1: on and on. I wish politician still gave speeches like this.

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Speaker 1: And there was a picture of a dwire the state

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Speaker 1: treasurer that shot and killed himself on live TV. When

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Speaker 1: you say dart videos and imagery, you're right. Are you

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Speaker 1: saying that people chose to ignore it or they just

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Speaker 1: couldn't fathom that the guy they thought they knew could

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00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 1: do something like this. Yeah. That So all of that

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Speaker 1: posting is something that we as researchers called leakage, So

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Speaker 1: it is telling people you're thinking about this, posting it,

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Speaker 1: writing it. And when it comes to young shooters, the

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Speaker 1: vast majority, it's about eighty percent of them leak their

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Speaker 1: plans ahead of time, so make it known. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of we miss the leakage. We don't take

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Speaker 1: it seriously. We can't imagine it could really happen. We

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Speaker 1: don't know who to report to or what to do

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Speaker 1: with it. But I think when we think about preventing

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Speaker 1: the next shooting, that's a really critical piece of it,

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Speaker 1: you know, doctor Peterson. I remember when I was writing

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Speaker 1: one of my books, my first nonfiction called Objection. I

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Speaker 1: talked about blood money. People make money off murder, selling,

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Speaker 1: for instance, the killer's hair or even their tonail clippings,

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Speaker 1: if you can imagine, or their drawings or bits of

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Speaker 1: pieces from murder scenes, or for instance, selling autopsy photos

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00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: which are very, very upsetting. I had to do so

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Speaker 1: much research on that laptop. When I finished the book,

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00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: I destroyed the laptop. A just felt like it was

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00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 1: cursed because there were so many bad images that I

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Speaker 1: had looked up in order to write about them. And

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Speaker 1: we've got this guy frequently posting the message boards discussing graphic,

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Speaker 1: graphic descriptions of murder, suicide, and death. He even posted

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Speaker 1: a picture a video of a beheading. I mean, for

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Speaker 1: peace sake, if I knew that about my child or

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Speaker 1: someone I loved, I would immediately get help for them,

429
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 1: because there's something very wrong with that. Doctor. Yeah, absolutely,

430
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: And that's what we need people to do. And it's

431
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: that on top of the fact that there's nine one

432
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: one calls to the house a couple of years prior

433
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: because he's attempting suicide or because he's threatening to kill

434
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: his entire family with his nice collection. I mean, we

435
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: need to put it all together. It's hard to believe

436
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: that no one thought we really need to connect this

437
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,359
Speaker 1: kid with some sort of resources. This is not okay,

438
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: and that's what we need people to be doing. And

439
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: doctor Peterson, what do you make of his rap persona awake?

440
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. To me, it's that kind

441
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: of quest to be known, right, that quest for fame,

442
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: that he wanted people to look up to him to

443
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: hear what he had to say, and that quest for

444
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: kind of fame and notoriety is something we see a

445
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: lot of in mass shooters, and in fact, a lot

446
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: of times they do this their final act so that

447
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: their name does make the history book, so that they

448
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,959
Speaker 1: can be known for this in a way that they

449
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: weren't known in their life. His full name was quote

450
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: Awake the Rapper. Now, having you prosecuted in Interciti Atlanta

451
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: for so many years, to live here, you basically have

452
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: to love rap. You have to no rap, you have

453
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 1: to understand rap. But I see him Awake the Rapper

454
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: is using that as a vehicle to disseminate hate violence.

455
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: I mean you can see that in his lyrics and

456
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 1: everything he did. Why do you believe that no one

457
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: seemingly noticed or did anything about it? Doctor Peterson? You know,

458
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 1: one thing that I think we're still struggling to figure

459
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: out is how do you separate the people who end

460
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: up doing this from other people posting violent content who

461
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: don't do this right? And how do you criminally charge someone, say,

462
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 1: for thinking or talking about violence. You can't do that right,

463
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: they have to actually do it. So I think part

464
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,959
Speaker 1: of it is we don't know how to intervene, right.

465
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: We don't know who to connect this person with, We

466
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: don't know when to be concerned or when not to be.

467
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: And so a lot of sport of new research in

468
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: my area and forensic psychology is really focused on helping

469
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: us figure this out. You know, this is reminded me

470
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: of doctor Julian Peterson joining US Professor Criminal Justice at

471
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: Saint Paul. We recently covered the case a handyman who

472
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: was working for this beautiful young mom. Her name or

473
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: saw your goal and if you look at her killer's profile,

474
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: it's inundated with sex videos, pickup hints, murder scenes, rape scenes,

475
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: stabbing scenes, and she was stabbed dead nearly sixty times.

476
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: So I really believe that your social media, what you

477
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: post is a window into your psyche. I really believe that.

478
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you have people that post all about their children,

479
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: are all about their job or their interests, that's what

480
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: they're about, And this is what he was posting. Doctor Yeah,

481
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: I fully agree with you, And I think there's questions about,

482
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: you know, what responsibility to social media platforms have for

483
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 1: looking at this content. Who should be moderating it when

484
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 1: we see something really concerning, who should we be telling?

485
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: But really, there are people in his life who had

486
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: to know that this is what he was posting. And

487
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: that's when we need people to speak up. Take a

488
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,479
Speaker 1: listen cut twelve of our friends at ABC seven. Federal

489
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: authorities are assisting in the investigation and pouring over as

490
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: I mentioned kremos social media accounts which were told to

491
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: pick graphic images and violent behavior. We're also told that

492
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: Kremo will most likely appear in boncourt some time today. Again,

493
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: the biggest thing we're waiting for right now are those

494
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: chargers charges, the announcement of the charges. So we're expecting

495
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: a news conference to happen and about ten minutes or so,

496
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: little more than that here at the Highland Park Police Department,

497
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: and we expect to learn more about charges being officially filed. Well,

498
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: we also know Dale Carson, joining the high profile lawyer

499
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: out of Jacksonville, former FBI agent. All we're learning about

500
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: his social media is going to be used by the

501
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: defense to claim insanity. But Dale Carson, I want you

502
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: to listen to our cut thirteen. This is Lake County

503
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: Major Crime Task Force spokesman Chris Cavelli. Listen carefully. We

504
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: do believe Cremo pre planned this attack for several weeks.

505
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: He brought a high powered rifle to this parade. He

506
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: accessed the roof of a business via a fire escape

507
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: ladder and began opening fire on the innocent Independence Day

508
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: celebration goers. The rifle was purchased in Illinois, and the

509
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: information we have thus far is that it appears to

510
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: have been purchased legally by Cremo. During the attack, Premo

511
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: dressed in woman's clothing, and investigators do believe he did

512
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: this to conceal his facial tattoos and his identity and

513
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: help him during the escape with the other people who

514
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: were fleeing the chaos. During the attack, we believe that

515
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: Karemo fired more than seventy rounds from this rifle into

516
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: the crowd of innocent people. Time stories with Nancy Grace

517
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: to Dale Carson, high profile lawyer joining me, former fair

518
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: with the FBI. He is not insane. Did you hear

519
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: the pre planning that was involved. Absolutely? I mean, this

520
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: is a skill set that's adapted from other shooters behaviors,

521
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: and it's what makes them so much more deadly than

522
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: what would have occurred forty years ago. And the result

523
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: ultimately is that people who are around this individual select

524
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: the frog and the frying van where the water gets

525
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: slowly heated because if you're watching him grow up as

526
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: a child, you think, well, that's not so unusual, that's

527
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: not so unusual. But for most on the outside, when

528
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: we look at that child, we go that person is

529
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: not right. You know. Many people are wondering how he

530
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: managed to get away from the scene of the shooting

531
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: take less an hour cut fourteen with the Lake County

532
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: Major Crime Task Force. Following the attack, Cremo exited the roof,

533
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 1: he dropped his rifle, and he blended in with the

534
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: crowd and he escaped. He walked to his mother's home,

535
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: who lived in the area, and he blended right in

536
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: with everybody else as they were running around, almost as

537
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: he was an innocent spectator as well. He borrowed his

538
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: mother's vehicle. We issued an alert yesterday afternoon. Chief Jagman

539
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 1: provided the vehicle information and Premo's information. How we're very

540
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: thankful that an alert member of the community saw Premo's

541
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: vehicle traveling southbound on Route forty one, dialed nine one.

542
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: An alert or Chicago Police officer spotted the vehicle, waited

543
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: for additional backup units to arrive, conducted a traffic stop,

544
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: and they were able to safely apprehend Cremo with no

545
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: injuries to the officers. Inside the vehicle. There was a

546
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: second rifle located. Indications is that was purchased by Cremo

547
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: as well. So I'm trying to figure out what this

548
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: all means. But to Lisa Fine Cavelli, a survivor of

549
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: the Vegas Mandalay shooting, when you hear all of this

550
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: about the shooter in this case, Cremo, twenty two year

551
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: old rapper want to be await the rapper? What goes

552
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: through your mind and makes me concerned about our lives

553
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: here in America? It makes you feel that how do

554
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: we stop this? How do we save lives? What are

555
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 1: we going to do? We can't go to concerts, Our

556
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: kids at school are getting killed, movie theaters, churches, places

557
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: of work. Nobody is safe anywhere, and it is it

558
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: is still beyond that we live in this, you know,

559
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 1: in the United States, and we are in a war

560
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 1: zone while we go out and enjoy our lives. It

561
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: twists me on the inside to think of all the

562
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: people who have lost their lives at the hands of

563
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:44,480
Speaker 1: some want to be rapper who dressed like a girl

564
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:48,479
Speaker 1: to blend in and get away. This is very very

565
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: carefully planned. This guy Kremo wasn't always like this. Take

566
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut sixteen in our friends at

567
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: CBS and you's speaking with a Highland Park mayor. We

568
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: were in the middle of a joyful celebration, having not

569
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: had this parade for two years due to the pandemic.

570
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: It was multi families deep along the freight route, with

571
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 1: a lot of folks shouting out. It was really joyful

572
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: and wonderful. I noticed the marching band racing down the

573
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: sidewalk at one point and couldn't understand what they were doing.

574
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: Thought maybe they were late for a performance. And then

575
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: suddenly police cars were racing towards us, and again it

576
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: was like, well, maybe somebody's having a heart attack. It

577
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: just didn't register that somebody was committing a mass shooting

578
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: in my city. My husband was right there, he was

579
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: right in the viewing stands, and he said it was

580
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: just measured pop pop, pop pop, And he said that's

581
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: when they realized, after about fifteen of those that it

582
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: wasn't fireworks, that it was gunshots. Yeah, what can you

583
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: tell us about the suspect. I've heard that you you've

584
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: had some connection to him in the past. I was

585
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: his cub scout haackletter. He was a little boy at

586
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: the time. I'm not sure what happened to him to

587
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: compel him to commit this kind of evil in his hometown,

588
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 1: in his own hometown. Joining me right now, longtime friend

589
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 1: and colleague, doctor Michelle Dupree, former forensic pathologist, medical examiner,

590
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: detective and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Doctor Dupree,

591
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 1: you and I have looked at a lot of crime scenes.

592
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: You've performed a lot of autopsies, but when there is

593
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: a mass shooting, I know it affects you in a

594
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: different way. And then when you hear the shooter was

595
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: once a come scout, like every other kid normal Seemingly

596
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: when you're doing autopsies are investigating it shootings like this,

597
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 1: is it hard to fathom the shooter was once a

598
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: normal kid. Nancy it is. I mean, this is so horrific.

599
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: It's hard to imagine anybody could do this, But someone

600
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 1: who has a pass to being a cub scout or

601
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: boy scout, you just don't think of that. It's it's

602
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: hard just to du pre In addition to of course

603
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: being medical examiner, you're also detective with Lixton County Sheriff's Department.

604
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about the gun used in

605
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: this case? And I see this is an an AAR

606
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 1: type of a long gun, a rifle. It is a

607
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: high powered and the reason it's high powered is because

608
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: the bullets when they come out, they travel so fast,

609
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: and that that's what causes the damage. This type of

610
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: gun causes enormous damage to the target it hits. I

611
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 1: mean a wound in a person the size would be

612
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: the size of an orange or bicker when it exits

613
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: the body. It's just horrific. What do you make of

614
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: what the witness said that there was a measured pause

615
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: between each shoot, in between each firing. Well, this type

616
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: of a rifle, it's actually a semi automatic, and so

617
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 1: one round is fired with each trigger pull. But you

618
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: can pull the trigger in rapid succession. So even though

619
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: it is a semi automatic, it can fire anywhere from

620
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: thirty to seventy five pounds per minute. Let me ask you,

621
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: Dota de three, what the shooting victims and one victim

622
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: was shot in a wheelchair. What these victims went through?

623
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: Would they based on what you've just told me about ballistics,

624
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: would they have survived long enough to understand what was

625
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: happening to them to see everybody running and screaming as

626
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: they bled out. Of course, you know that depends on

627
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: where they were shot. I mean, we have one victim

628
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: that was actually grazed in the leg and she survived.

629
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: If you have a direct hit by this in the

630
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: core of your body, the central part of your body,

631
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: you are not likely to survive. It's going to be

632
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: very fast. You are still going to be in shock

633
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: within a minute or so. Other people, depending again on

634
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: where they're hit, they're going to know what's going on.

635
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: And certainly, if you're not the first person shot, you're

636
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: going to hear the gunshots, You're going to see people running,

637
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: You're going to be afraid, and then all of a sudden,

638
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,240
Speaker 1: you're going to also feel that it's going to be horrific.

639
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: Tell me again about the bullet, the type of amma used, Well,

640
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 1: there are different types of amma that can be used

641
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 1: in these guns, typically something like a Tuccio three or

642
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: something of that nature. But there are several different types

643
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: of ammas. But in all cases, again they're high powered.

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Speaker 1: And the reason that they're high powered is because I

645
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Speaker 1: don't want to get into math here. It's not much

646
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: trying subject, but the velocity or the speed of that

647
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: bullet is something around thirty two hundred feet per second

648
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: per se. A handgun is much much slower than that,

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00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: so the killing power, if you will, is a little less,

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00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: and that's what makes these so dangerous. It's why the

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Speaker 1: military use this type of gun on one similar it's

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Speaker 1: a killing machine. To you, Lisa find Cavalli shooting survivor,

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Speaker 1: what's your final thought today? I hope that our leaders

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00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 1: can come together and do whatever it takes to make

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00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: the stop. It has got to stop. It is people,

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00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: the ripple effect of the damage of all of these

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00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 1: innocent lives being murdered, and it seems like it's happening

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00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: every week. I hope that we can get solutions. I

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00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: don't care what it takes. We need solutions to this

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00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: massacre of these lives. The war zone is opening up

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Speaker 1: on our lives every day we walked out of that

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00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: door and we could be involved in a mass shooting.

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Speaker 1: It's got to stop. Oh we wait as justice un

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Speaker 1: false Nancy Grace Crumb story signing off. That's