WEBVTT - History Has Some Ominous Warnings for Investors in Initial Coin Offerings 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:14.480 Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.759 I'm Joe Wis and I'm Tracy Alloway. So, Tracy, you know, 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:23.119 there's this really big story in markets these days and 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:26.480 in finance and it's tech, and we kind of haven't 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.880 been covering it very much. I'm scratching my head because 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:33.800 I feel like we've been covering a lot in markets. 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.720 Do you mean on add thoughts or no? Yeah? Yeah, 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.400 sorry on the podcast. Like every time every time I 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.680 tweet that we have like some new episode, there's like 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:46.240 there's one topic out there. They're like, when you guys 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.320 going to talk about X, and you must have gotten 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.279 it right. I think I have an inkling of what 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:54.480 it is. But we had didn't you do a whole 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.920 episode on this by yourself? And I wasn't there. Yeah 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:01.160 we did, It's true, So I guess that sort of 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.959 ends the suspense. It was a good effort, joke, good 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.520 effort we had, like the whole Bubble series of course, 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:09.920 remember that, of course, And every time we would like, 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.479 oh and today we're talking about another bubble, and someone 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.240 on Twitter like, oh, you're finally going to be talking 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:19.120 about tokens and initial coin offerings and every time we 0:01:19.240 --> 0:01:22.400 did it, they're disappointed. But it is true. You know, 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:24.800 we've written and there's been a lot of Bloomberg coverage 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:28.480 about initial coin offerings, but they've become such a phenomenon 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:30.600 and so many people are taught about I c o 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.520 s and tokens and cryptocurrencies that is kind of like 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:36.640 it feels like we have to talk more about them 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:40.880 on odd lots. Okay, if if you insist, I've been 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:43.280 trying to avoid the topic. In fact, I did such 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.080 a good job of avoiding it that when you did 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:47.120 that whole episode of I c O S, I wasn't 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.560 even there. But for ourt listeners who don't know what 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.160 they are, who've been living under a rock, I guess 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.040 give us a recap of what exactly we mean. Well, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.480 basically everybody by this point is heard of like cryptocurrencies 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.240 and if they don't understand them, like you know, bitcoin 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.080 and so forth. But what we've seen an explosion of 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:12.680 in the last year really is organizations and companies trying 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:16.240 to launch their own coins and sell launching some new 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:19.320 network with the idea that you would buy this coin, 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.239 and buying the coin would fund the creation of a 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:24.680 new network. You would have to use the coin to 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:27.760 use the network, and if everyone wants to use the network, 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:30.079 then the coins would rise and value and everyone can 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:31.959 make a fortune. At least that's sort of the idea. 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.200 And we've just seen, you know, day after day, it 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.360 feels like there's dozens of these new coins being launched, 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.760 and the question is is this a new funding paradigm, 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:45.160 Is this a new way that markets will incentivize the 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:48.680 creation of new platforms and networks, or is this just 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.480 a bubble slash, a get rich quick scheme And there's 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:53.800 really nothing there, and it feels like this is one 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:56.920 of the biggest debates happening right now. Yeah, more like 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.160 I see oh ha ha ha ha ha. I been 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.320 saving that one. No, but there's in all seriousness, there's 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:07.000 a subtlety here because you're talking about um initial coin offerings, 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:10.440 which are often these sort of new digital coins that 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:15.480 are attached to the Ethereum blockchain network. And there's also tokens, 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:20.480 which are usually a sort of system created to exchange 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.760 services basically, so there's two different things as they currently exist, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:27.960 but they all have a similar sort of goal, which 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.680 is to get people interested in create this big network 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.560 effect as you mentioned totally, and they all have some 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:38.320 of the same language and ideology about decentralization and subverting 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.320 existing organizations and stuff like that. So there's a lot 0:03:41.400 --> 0:03:44.520 to dive into. Today, we have a guest I'm very 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:47.120 excited to talk to. We're going to be talking to 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:52.240 Elaine Oh. She is a software engineered global financial access. 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.200 She is a contributor to Bloomberg View, and she has 0:03:55.240 --> 0:04:00.920 been following the initial coin offering and cryptocurrency space herself 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.320 for many years, both on her blog and in her 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.480 career and stuff like that, and I think it's a 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.720 perfect person to talk about some of the technical aspects 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:13.800 and the economic aspects of initial coin offerings and sort 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:16.800 of hopefully guide us to an understanding of whether there's 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.159 something real here or whether this really is just sort 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:21.839 of a get rich quick scheme or a bubble that 0:04:21.880 --> 0:04:24.360 will all come crashing down. I remember some of the 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:28.520 Lane's really early work on this topic, so I'm very excited. 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.800 Without further Ado Atlanto, thank you very much for joining us. 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.919 Thanks Joe. What our initial coin offerings or tokens like? 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:48.560 If someone asks you, how do you describe what's going 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.880 on right now? A token is basically a native asset 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:57.720 in a network protocol that is used to I guess 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:00.880 represent some transferable value. It's break it down a little 0:05:00.920 --> 0:05:04.279 bit further. You say, a network protocol a native asset, 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.039 What is that? What does that mean specifically? Like and 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:08.719 sort of spell it out a little bit more. What's 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.120 been going on? In simpler terms, it's just an imaginary 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.599 thing that people are selling to raise lots of money 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:20.120 in hopes of building a future product. That's pretty simple, 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.000 isn't it. How about this give us the history of 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.120 i c o s, because it feels like they just 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.839 sort of exploded into the public consciousness this year. But 0:05:28.880 --> 0:05:31.560 I'm sure you know someone actually came up with the 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:33.880 idea at one point in time and they were trying 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:39.000 to solve a specific problem. There were a number of 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.280 i c o s back in uh two thousand, two 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:45.880 thousand fourteen. They weren't as prevalenta as the ones today. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:50.200 Probably the most well known I c O was Ethereum. 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:55.880 They sold their ether tokens before ever building anything, and 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:01.360 they collected bitcoin in exchange for their future ether. So 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:06.200 the creators of Ethereum collected bitcoin to create this new 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.840 You could call Ethereum a coin itself. Now, what we've 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:15.480 seen in seventeen quite a lot is people collecting Ethereum 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:19.679 to create new tokens that ride on the Ethereum network. 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.680 So explain how that works and explain like if there 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.840 are some specific ones, like you know, what do people 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:29.200 actually proposed they'd be used for. I think Ethereum raised 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.280 eighteen million dollars worth of bitcoin back when they were 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:37.799 doing their token offering. And Ethereum runs basically decentralized apps. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.360 These are just little software programs that run on computers 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.920 all around the world, and the most popular app that 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.520 people are running on these computers is a token app. 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.400 And a token app is basically just a ledger that 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.960 keeps track of who owns um which tokens. So by 0:06:56.040 --> 0:07:00.600 sending ether, which is Ethereum's native token, to one of 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:04.760 these token apps, people receive an allocation of token in return. 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.120 What are some of the more esoteric or what's the 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:10.240 word I'm thinking of? I guess unusual I c o 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.200 s that you've seen, because I remember a couple of 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:18.440 people mentioning specific examples like um synthorn, which is a 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:23.880 token ized synthetic rhino horn afrodisiac. I'm not even sure 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.200 what that means. But you know, if you go to 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.640 one of the websites that lists all the active i 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.880 c o s, you can find some really odd things 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.960 on there. I mean, people will basically do an i 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.360 c O for anything that will raise money. I mean, 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.840 there are i c o s for tokens that claim 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.880 straight up that they're not getting anything in return. It's 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:48.760 just an experiment to see whether people will send money 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.720 to a blank token, like there was early on the 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.760 Ponzi coin. Then there was the well I mean, there 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:59.640 was an f word token where basically you're just getting 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:05.320 a a token named the efford. Okay, but wait, there 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.080 are some actual ones that sound fairly legitimate, in which 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:13.240 it appears that a new application or a distributed application 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.600 might solve some problem and a token and in a 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.360 native token might be of value. So, for example, there 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:24.320 are ones that offer a distributed cloud storage. So we 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:27.480 all know about you know, existing cloud storage, but if 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.880 you have stuff that's maybe more sensitive and you don't 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.480 want it all with companies, you can have it distributed 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.920 across a network of computers and then you pay them 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:40.920 in that native token for the service of hosting your documents, 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.679 which on the service sounds reasonably legitimate. What I want 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:48.440 to understand is how does in theory, how does the 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.200 token facilitate this? So if I want to, uh, you know, 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.520 store something very sensitive. Let's say I'm working on some 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:00.280 subversive organization and a you know, and an oppressive authoritarian country, 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.000 and I want to store my organizational documents across all 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.599 these different computers and nobody can shut me down. Explain 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:10.840 how in theory these I c O s or tokens 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.920 could facilitate that. Well, a token is supposed to represent 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:19.240 a transferral blastset with a market price and UM. In 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:23.600 return for storing someone's files, UM, the person would pay 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.640 you in these UM file tokens, And since these file 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.400 tokens can then be sold on the open market, you're, well, 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:34.400 you're getting compensated for storing someone else's files. So it's 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:37.960 a sort of incentive engineering. Although there are other services 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:41.400 like bit torrent that do offer decentralized file storage already, 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:45.400 h you mentioned bit torrent Elaine, so on your blog 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:48.880 you came up with a really good historical example of 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:54.120 a previous attempt to provide a sort of token based service. 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:58.959 Can you walk us through what that historical parallel was right. 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:03.040 So in yearly two thousand's uh, there was a company 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.120 called mojoor Nation, and I mean the intention of no 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:10.840 mojor Nation wasn't really to create a token for people 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:15.920 to trade, but to incentivize people to share their extra 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:20.319 computational resources. The tokens were designed to incentivize this sharing, 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:25.080 but they ended up adding unnecessary complexity and um, it 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:30.440 was a distraction from the underlying service, which was offering 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:37.480 extra storage space or CPU cycles. So people in theory, 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:40.960 mojo Nation was supposed to encourage people to share their 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.920 extra CPU cycles and then they would get paid in 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:47.720 this token, but it didn't work and as you say, 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:51.439 the token added extra complexity. But then what came out 0:10:51.480 --> 0:10:55.040 of mojo Nation or sort of the successor organization, was 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:58.680 actually a huge success. To explain that when you create 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.800 a transferable resource like a token, then people who have 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:05.960 the tokens want the tokens to be scarce, and in 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.880 order for a service to be widely adopted, I mean, 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:12.840 you don't want the token holders too also want the 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.480 tokens to be scarce. The reason why Bittorn was so 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:19.440 much more successful than emog nation was well, not just 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:24.200 the simplicity, but also they didn't try to introduce artificial 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.720 scarcity with these tokens. The earliest version, people were who 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:33.720 uploaded files were given priority in downloading the same or 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.320 downloading other files, so it was sort of a tip 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:41.120 for tat um protocol rather than actual like accounting and 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:56.000 trying to transfer resources that they had gained. So this 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.680 really gets to the heart of the question I think, 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.800 which is that the theory behind all these tokens is 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.760 that if you create a monetary incentive to join a 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.960 specific network, then people will give up their you know, 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.320 computer resources or something, and then the network will form. 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.040 But history shows us that at least maybe not every 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:18.280 time it works like this, but sometimes the monetary aspect 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:22.320 of it can create a level of confusion and difficulty 0:12:22.400 --> 0:12:27.040 and um and friction that actually impedes the creation of 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.280 the network and undermines the goal. Right you can see 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:36.120 this happening with bitcoin right now. Bitcoin is a payment system, 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:40.720 although there are far more people hoarding bitcoin than actually 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.280 using it for payments, and I mean that that's okay, 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.160 people see it as a store of value as well, 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:50.920 but um, it's also something that makes bitcoin less usable 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.680 that the fact that people are hoarding it rather than 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:58.480 spending it. Are there anyways for people running I c 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.400 O s now to kind of overcome that fundamental tension 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:06.240 between you know, early adopters who want tokens to be 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:11.520 scarce and the needs of creating a large network relatively quickly. 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.360 I mean, the incentives are basically at odds with each other. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:20.600 Part of having the initial token sale is that you 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:24.080 distribute the tokens to people who will be evangelists for 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.120 the service, but then it sort of turns into a 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.480 pump and dump because these evangelists try to drive up 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:34.360 the price and then they sell off their tokens. Right. 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.840 This seems to be sort of the heart of why 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.200 like people think that there's a bubble, because what you 0:13:39.280 --> 0:13:44.199 have is the theory. Okay, the tokens facilitate the networks, 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.280 but when you look at it, it doesn't look like 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.480 any real networks are being formed. But you do have 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.600 a massive amount of speculation and trading and as you say, 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.240 pump and dump, so it looks like you know that 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.800 it's really it appears from my side, and that the 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:01.720 as they the card is coming before the horse. There's 0:14:01.720 --> 0:14:05.000 no real they're there with any of this stuff. Yeah, 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:09.080 and it's unfortunate because there are people trying to develop 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.440 legitimate technology, but the legitimate ones are going to get 0:14:12.480 --> 0:14:15.520 lost in the noise and be seen as a scam 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:20.480 just like the other ones. Are there specific applications or 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:22.600 like uses for i c O s that you think 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:27.600 are better suited to the format than others, Like for instance, 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:32.000 I met Yobi Benjamin randomly in Abu Dhabi last week. 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.080 He used to be uh CTO for city and he's 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:39.479 running an i c O that provides services or exchanges 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:45.280 basically video game services and something like that. I can see, 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.160 you know, playing video games is kind of a fun 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:53.360 thing that people do. Uh, it's not necessarily critical to 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:57.560 your everyday life, at least for some people. So maybe 0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:03.120 something like that a token makes sense. Well, ultimately a 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.720 token is going to If a token is widely adopted, 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:09.680 it becomes like a currency. And I mean the reason 0:15:09.760 --> 0:15:14.080 why we have um things like the US dollar or 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:16.880 currencies in general is to solve for the coincidence of 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:21.960 wants problem. And if something has or actually has a 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.080 token or native token that has value, like you might 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:28.920 as well just pay in bitcoin or either. So is 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.480 this essentially us going back to a bartering system, but 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:37.880 I guess a blockchain bartering system. It sounds like basically, yeah, 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:40.320 when you hear people talk about a bubble or a 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.000 new gold rush, let's say, yeah, yeah, there's a lot 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:46.160 of speculation. It's a big bubble right now, and it's 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.160 probably gonna burst, but something good will come out of this. 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:53.280 And they pointed to the Internet, the dot comswood and 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.400 say yeah, that I'll burst. But then we got the 0:15:55.440 --> 0:15:58.040 broadband network and now of course, and and of course 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.840 many of the companies from the late nineties ended up 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:05.640 being huge deals, like Amazon being the most obvious example. 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.560 When you look at this space, do you think it's 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.840 going to follow the similar trajectory? Is it safe to 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.480 be that confident that something of value will come from 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.240 all the speculative activity that we're seeing. Well, most of 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:24.360 the things that these um tokens proposed to build involve 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:28.640 open source software. So there's that aspect in that people 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:31.240 are building open source software that could in theory be 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:35.480 used by future applications, even if the tokens themselves don't succeed. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.400 I mean a lot of them are not building anything 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:44.960 at all, so that's probably less valuable. It seems like 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:49.040 an understatement. Joe alluded to this in our intro. How 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:54.320 do you think the UM the I c O story ends? Ultimately? 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.400 Then do all of these things proved to be you know, 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:02.920 if not outright frauds, then kind of useless endeavors. And 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.359 while we're at it, how do you think bitcoin ends? 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:08.240 Because to your point, it's supposed to be a payment 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.000 system UM with a big network effect, and instead we 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.440 have people who are keeping the coins because they assume 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:19.760 they're going to rise and value. It's two big questions. Sorry, yeah, 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.600 I think the token sales will eventually run their course. UM. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.960 Even today, Uh, I think we have passed the peak, 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:31.159 and new tokens that are being launched these days, UM 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.399 aren't seeing the massive influx of capital that the earlier 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.879 ones saw. As for bitcoin, what one of the biggest 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:43.119 complaints about bitcoin in recent months was that the transaction 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.960 fees are really, really are getting too high. And the 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.280 part of the reason for that is because transaction fees 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.520 are denominated in bitcoin, and the price of bitcoin has 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:57.200 gone up like five percent this year, so it looks 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:59.919 like transaction fees have gone up a lot. Whend non 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.600 need in US dollars. But then in terms of Bitcoin, 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:05.960 I mean they've stayed fairly constant. One recent change in 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.760 bitcoin was they did a software upgrade that now allows 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:14.480 for Layer two transactions that don't actually happen on chain, 0:18:14.600 --> 0:18:18.320 but can people can make Bitcoin transactions with lower fees 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.480 off chain and then do netting and batching on chain 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.680 later on. So just to be clear that you think 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.560 that the software is in theory going to be enabling 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.600 it might become more conducive to payments in the future. Yeah, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.800 I think they will get around that, even though, um, 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.879 I mean bitcoin did see I guess a couple of 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.400 years of complaints where people felt that it was not 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:47.000 that usable. Right, all right, well, Atlanta, thank you very 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:49.600 much for joining us. I think that no doubt this 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.280 is going to be a very widely listened to episode 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.400 because I know there's just tons of interest in this 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:59.320 topic and appreciate your perspective on it. Lano Software Engineered 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.400 Global Finance, Jill Access and a Bloomberg View contributor, Thank 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:16.879 you very much. Thanks Joe and Tracy. So Joe I 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.200 managed to escape I c O S briefly at least 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.960 on the Odd Loots podcast, but we cannot escape them 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.000 in our day to day markets coverage, and I can't 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.959 even escape them from my personal email accounts. So just 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.920 last week I got an invite for a pre sale 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.920 in a I C O. I'm not going to say 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:36.480 the name of it, but I will tell you that 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.680 the private pre sale password to participate in this offering 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.080 is participate in success. That gives you an idea of 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:48.000 the marketing. I don't think we need to say anything 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.520 more than that. That more than anything else, that in 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.959 your private email you got a offer for pre sale 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.320 and that was the password. I kind of think that 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.880 sums it up, doesn't it? Yeah? Should we just leave 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:02.240 it there? Are we done? Let's leave it there. This 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:04.920 has been another edition of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:08.440 Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway, 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:11.240 and I'm Joe wisn't Thal. You can follow me on 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:13.840 Twitter at the Stalwart. And you can follow our guests 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:18.120 Elane Oh on Twitter at Elaine except the Ellen. Elane 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.720 is an eye, so it's like Ei so and and 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:26.040 you can follow our producer on Twitter, Sarah Patterson at 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:28.479 Sarah Pett With two teas. Thanks for listening.