WEBVTT - The Karol Markowicz Show: Getting Hammered with Mary Katherine Ham 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.000 Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:07.280 the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton podcast network on iHeartRadio. 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.000 I think after the last few days, we need a 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:16.960 palette cleanser, So let's talk about sex. People aren't having it. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:21.320 Study after study shows a downward trend in the number 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:25.440 of people having sex. One study in twenty twenty one 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.320 showed twenty six percent of adult Americans hadn't had sex 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.800 in the last year. A large study from two thousand 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:37.080 to twenty eighteen showed an increasing number of people eighteen 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.600 to thirty four reported having no sex or far less 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:45.120 frequent sex than years prior. Nearly forty percent of young 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.479 adults surveyed in California in twenty twenty one had no 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:52.000 sexual partners in the prior year at all. I know 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.360 California is weird, but still, I feel like in the 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.959 nineteen eighties and maybe nineties, sex was very much in 0:00:59.320 --> 0:01:03.480 and now out. All of the comedies of that age 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.760 put sex front and center. For example, I'm not saying 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.360 bring back the gratuitous nudity of the movies of the 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.839 nineteen eighties, but it's almost like sex has become passe. 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:18.080 I'm going to talk about our declining birth rates in 0:01:18.200 --> 0:01:21.520 later episodes, but that's not what I mean here. I 0:01:21.640 --> 0:01:24.880 literally mean people are not having sex, and this is 0:01:24.920 --> 0:01:30.480 having a serious negative impact on our society. In November 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:32.640 of twenty twenty one, I wrote a piece for The 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:37.760 Spectator magazine called Life After Sex. The pandemic was obviously 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.840 pretty un sexy, I wrote, quote, life could not have 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.800 been less sexy lately, the neighborhood busybody calling the police 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.280 on your backyard party, half of everyone's face covered by 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.840 a mask, everyone drinking too much, staying in their pajamas 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:56.080 all day, and putting on the quarantine fifteen end quote. 0:01:57.720 --> 0:02:00.480 But it wasn't just that. We've been going going through 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:05.680 some pretty significant societal changes, I wrote, quote. Social changes 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.640 are also ratcheting down the sexy fifty seven genders only 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:13.200 sounds cool to a teenager. An adult hearing someone as 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:18.000 a pan buy trans non binary fem will just tune 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:20.520 out and go search up porn hub for something that 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.360 makes sense. Porn use, of course, is way up. People 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.560 might not want to have actual sex, but they're not 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.000 giving up their porn. It's a new world. Click click 0:02:30.160 --> 0:02:33.280 relief far easier than making it work in the new normal, 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:37.000 whatever that is this month sexy is so old fashioned. 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:41.760 End quote. There's really something to that we used to 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:46.760 accept without too much introspection, what we found generally attractive 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:50.440 for men. Yes, the Victoria's Secret model type was what 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:52.680 the majority of men would turn to look at in 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.040 the street. It doesn't mean men aren't attracted to the 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.760 ninety nine point nine percent of us who don't look 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:01.680 like these models, but it was just acceptable to say 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.160 these women are beautiful and most men will find them attractive. 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:08.720 It was obvious. It was right around the time of 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:12.200 that Spectator piece that Victoria's Secret decided to change their 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:16.160 whole guiding philosophy around this They announced and I wrote, 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:20.919 that they'll be phasing out their impossibly gorgeous and fit angels. Instead, 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:24.040 they'll be going with leading icons and change makers, including 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:28.600 the soccer star Megan Rapino, the transgender model Valentina Sempeo, 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:33.120 the plus size model Paloma Elsessor, and seventeen year old 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:37.400 skier Eileen Goo. These new icons won't be posing in lingerie, 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.279 but sharing their inspirational stories in a ten episode podcast, 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:46.960 So Hot. End quote. Women don't put on lingerie to 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:50.520 be inspired, and men don't look at women in lingerie 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:54.480 to see a change maker. Lingerie is made for sex. 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:58.760 That obvious statement is no longer obvious. People can be 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:01.640 attracted to whatever they want, and there's a wide range 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.680 of what people like. But I really oppose the whole 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.720 what you're supposed to like idea for both men and women. 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:12.160 When the show mad Men was all the rage, women 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:16.599 loved Don Draper. He was handsome, he was a man's man, 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.360 but also, you know, kind of a lothario who was 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.520 bad to his women. So there were all these hand 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.760 ringing think pieces from self described feminists about how they 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.480 were attracted to him, like TIHI but you know, felt 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:32.039 so bad about it. By the way, no man in 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.160 history has ever felt bad about who he was attracted to. 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:41.719 Never ever, I was not attracted to Don Draper. He 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.680 seemed like too much of a project to me. In fact, 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.120 my celebrity crush is Drone from FOUDA kind of a 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.640 hot moment for that right now. But he's like the 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.839 protector guy, and he's a badass, and like my husband, 0:04:55.839 --> 0:05:00.559 he's Israeli. That sulking Don Draper guy really did nothing 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:02.720 for me. And I also didn't feel like there was 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.240 anyone that I was supposed to like or not supposed 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:07.640 to like, and so it lets me like who I like. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:11.840 But so now it feels like men are getting that 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:15.479 same pressure about what they're supposed to like. And that 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:20.080 helps explain why sex is on the decline. We like 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:22.760 what we like and being made to feel bad about 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:26.240 that really doesn't work. We're not going to find some 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:31.560 do good or attractive just because we're supposed to. I 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.920 say that women have always gotten the advice to not 0:05:35.000 --> 0:05:39.200 be attracted to what they're actually attracted to. I think 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.080 when we see women not consider attraction in the guy 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.560 that they're marrying, that's a problem, and it's one of 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:50.520 the reasons we see mismatched libidos and marriages. You should 0:05:50.560 --> 0:05:53.320 marry a man who's good to you, who's a good provider, 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:55.680 who will take care of his family. Yes, yes to 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.240 all of that, but he should also be a man 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:01.360 you want to have sex with. A marriage without sex 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.120 is a friendship. I sometimes talk about how sex is 0:06:04.160 --> 0:06:06.280 the most important part of a marriage, and it actually 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:10.080 makes people annoyed because they say no, so many other 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.920 things matter, you know, trust matters, or compatibility matters, and 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.120 of course all of that matters. When I say most 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.920 important thing in a relationship, I don't say only important 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.559 thing in a relationship. A lot of other things matter, 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:24.800 but sex is really front and center. Otherwise what you 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.800 have is a friendship. One of the wild things I 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:32.480 discovered during that during while I was writing that Spectator 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.480 piece is that there was a study conducted during the 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:40.719 pandemic that found that cohabiting couples actually masturbated more and 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.680 had sex less during the lockdowns. I mean, that's crazy, 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.640 But I'll side note this by bringing it back to 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:51.160 my first episode where my monologue was in favor of marriage, 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.520 that married people have more sex than anyone. I bring 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.200 this message to college kids all the time. It's a 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.040 lie that marriage is the end of sex life. In 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.760 a lot of cases, it's very much the beginning. So 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.880 what's the point sex is good? Yeah, that's the point 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.040 sex is good. One of my favorite things to hit 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.720 is that we have to point things out, even if 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:18.400 it's just to ourselves. Treat sex as important. It's useful, 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.920 look for better sleep and better health, lower stress, and 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.360 it's just a good time. So you know, go do 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.440 it right now or after this show is over coming 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.920 up next in interview with Mary Katherine Ham join us 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:38.880 after the break, I would say that when I was 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.200 thinking about guests that I would have in the future, 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:44.720 and when I thought about interviewing MK, it was one 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:47.800 of those where I thought, it's twenty to thirty minutes 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.000 going to be enough because I have a lot of 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.560 things I want to cover with her, but we'll do 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:54.880 our best to get to everything. And it's so nice 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:56.200 to have you, Mary Catherine. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:57.760 Oh, thank you so much for having me. 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.840 So the overall theme of this show is going to 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:04.640 be how to be happier, how to improve your life, 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.160 but also how to do things like find the right 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:10.640 relationship or how to make friends in adulthood. And I 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.600 love everything you write. I'm legitimately like, I think you're 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.480 such a beautiful writer. But one of my favorite things 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:19.320 that you've written was back in twenty seventeen on the 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:23.240 Federalist website about trying to make mom friends. And it 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.440 was called the internal Monologue of a new Mom making 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:30.520 Mom Friends, so everybody should google it. It was hilarious 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:32.960 and brilliant, and so in thinking of this question, I 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.320 also I confused that piece with the interaction the time 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.960 that your daughter peed on a potential friend separate story. 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:45.679 It's a good one accidentally obviously, but you know, so, 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:46.000 how is. 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.920 Adult potty training comes with certain challenges? 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:53.520 This plus is and minuses to all friendships. So how 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.360 is the adult friend making going growing up actually making? 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.000 Because I feel like adult friend making sounds like something different. 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.120 Yes, yes, I did. I think in that piece I 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:09.640 suggested that there should be basically tender for moms and 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:11.559 I was like, oh, that's weird. Is that that'll get 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:12.800 a lot of clicks? But I'm not sure that's what 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.800 I mean. So, and I should say, also, just to 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.920 exonerate my poor daughter, yes, she was potty training. I 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.800 took her to a park and she said, no, Mom, 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:25.920 I definitely don't need a diaper today. I am good 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:28.199 to go. And I was like, great, that sounds awesome. 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.560 And when we got in the car, she told me 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:36.040 I peed at the park and that little girl yelled 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:38.720 at me, and I said, oh, well, I'm sure she 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.800 was just surprised, you know, no, biggie. And then it 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.720 turns out that what happened was the girl was standing 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.800 under her on the play structure when this happened. So 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.240 still fair, I did not ever get time. I didn't 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.439 ever get in touch with that mom again, but anyway, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:58.160 so that friendship was out, but the adult friend making 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.840 is pretty good. It's it's an interesting question because I 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.839 think when you have kids, you wonder, do I need 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.240 to make a completely different set of friends who also 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:11.000 have kids and are dealing with the same phase of 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.280 life that I'm in, Or can I import my old 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.800 friends who are also moms now, which is kind of 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:19.480 That's a lot of what I've done. I have several 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.280 in the area who we were friends before we were moms, 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:27.400 one in particular from college, who we parent similarly, which 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:30.000 is a huge part of making those kinds of friends, 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.840 and so I do a little bit of that. I 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.520 also am thankful that in several neighborhoods I've lived in 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:40.360 in the DC area, I have had really good friends 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:44.679 nearby who also had similar values and similar parenting styles. 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:47.360 On the corner I lived in before I moved here, 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.080 when I was a single mom, there were two sec 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:55.760 fan houses on either side of me. Granted, LSU and Auburn, 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.200 but look, you deal with what you deal with when 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.040 you come to another place, and they had you know, 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:04.160 they understood me and the football and had rough and 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:07.800 tumble kids, and we went through a tough time together 0:11:07.800 --> 0:11:10.040 obviously in my life, and so I was able to 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.720 make friends there. And then I moved and I moved 0:11:12.760 --> 0:11:16.040 close to an army base, and now I have my 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.559 army mom friends and they are fantastic. 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.079 That sounds really good. Does it being a public person 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:24.800 hinder that or help it? 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:30.840 I think it hinders it more than anything, because mainly 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.760 because I actually one thing I do in an attempt 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.439 to make mom friends or adult friends in my vicinity 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.360 is that I don't engage with their social media until 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.840 after I've talked with them for a while, like, that's 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.360 not the first place I want to go. Much like 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:51.000 your neighborhood lists serve, I feel like the reason you're 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.559 going there is more than like you're just going to 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.199 end up hating your neighbors, and that's not what I'm 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.040 interested in doing. So there are several friends I have 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.960 whom if I had seen their social media first, I 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.920 would have assumed a they would dislike me, and be 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:09.240 that I might not like them. And it turns out 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.520 that social media can just put a different tinge on things. 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:16.720 Not everybody has a very the same tone as I do. 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.319 And you know, it could just look very different for 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.640 different people, and it can look very different from their 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.360 real life persona. And so I want to get to 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.040 know the real life person and then we can delve 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.720 into that later. With me, that sometimes becomes impossible if 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:35.360 someone you know, clocks me as a public person first. 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:37.600 But it hasn't caused a ton of. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:42.040 Problems, right, So you've had a really amazing career. I've 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.160 you know, I feel like I've been along for the 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.640 ride for a lot of it. And you were most 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:53.400 recently at CNN. I was a splashy departure. Would you 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:53.800 say that. 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:56.760 Yeah, I think that's fair. I felt like I needed 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:57.560 to get some shots in. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.280 Can you tell our listeners what happened? 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.320 Yes? So I was at CNN from twenty fifteen until 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.200 this spring. Before that, I was at Fox. I actually 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.640 enjoyed very much being at CNN. I went over there 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.319 with the intention of being the weirdo on the set, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.040 being the person who says the thing that other people 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.959 don't say. Now, at that time, I think this is 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.199 in the very this is in the earlier Zucker years. 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.400 It's as Trump is headed toward the nomination. But we 0:13:26.440 --> 0:13:28.760 didn't know that at the time, and I felt like 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:32.400 it was a pretty nice place to be and did 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.959 responsible work and had Trump supporters and Trump critical commentators 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:40.080 on mostly every panel I was on, and I enjoyed 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:40.760 that very much. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.800 This is the nicest thing anybody's ever said about CNN. 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.920 By the way, well, that was meeting the left. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.840 You know, that was twenty fifteen and sixteen. I do 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.000 felt I feel like it really took a turn and 0:13:53.080 --> 0:13:56.439 that this if I am, I allowed to say, pissing 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:01.840 match between Zucker and Trump led to really bad news 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:07.200 coverage and really bad incentives because everyone knew that the 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:11.439 more you try to nail Trump, the more airtime you're 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:15.599 gonna get. And it was very obvious, and it was 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.200 obvious to me that I wasn't doing the right things 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.960 to get the airtime. Now that does not mean that 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.080 certain journalists didn't put me on the air. I was 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.680 on Tapper Show a lot. There were people who made 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:27.760 an effort to get me out there. John Berman is 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.440 another one who was fun to be on with. But 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.520 in general, institutionally I was not doing what needed to 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.640 be done right in the eyes of management. So my 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.320 career sort of like tailed off in that way. Then 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.400 we hit COVID. Then in twenty twenty one and twenty two, 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:46.440 I'm off air for months and months and months and months. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.760 Now I had two babies in two years. So I'm like, 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:50.720 am I so sad about that? I'm not so sad 0:14:50.720 --> 0:14:53.600 about it, But I am employed by this place, and 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.200 what's happening? So I started asking questions and I can't 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.480 figure out what's happening, Like why am I never on? 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:03.600 I'm pitching columns, nothing, nothing's working. And finally, after Chris 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.560 Lick joins for his short short tenure at CNN, I 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.880 get a call from somebody in management or HR who 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.640 explains to me what happened. And here's what happened is 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.000 that I was put on the bench, suspended without my knowledge. 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:21.680 Everyone told Zucker, told the shows not to use me 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:27.280 because I had tweeted criticism of Jeffrey Tuban. 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:30.400 That is yeah. 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:35.480 Jeffrey Tubban was a legal commentator who was in his 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.160 capacity as at another job, had been caught on a 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:45.240 zoom pleasuring himself, and he had not been fired from CNN. 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.960 As a result of this interaction, he was benched and 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:54.280 then brought back somewhat triumphantly with a like an interview 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:59.840 by Alison Camarata. It was very strange and he I 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:03.920 wondered to myself, how long was I punished for criticizing 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.360 him versus how long he was punished? And the answer 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.240 is he was off air for eight months and I 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.920 was off air for seven months. Right, So that's the price. 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.640 For saying, get to show anybody anything you know? 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:19.240 No I know, And I thought to myself, man, I 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:21.360 really I could have had only fans and a career 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.560 and I just had a political commentary career. But no, 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.640 it's just so, it's so deeply unfair. Part of it 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:29.680 was that the context of the conversation that I was 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:32.760 having on Twitter was one where I was critical of 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:37.280 media coverage, including CNN of the congressional baseball shooting that 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:39.280 rubs people the wrong way. But I felt like it 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.360 needed to be said, and I should not have used 0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:46.960 that phrase that I just used. But right that that 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.760 conversation included this tweet about two but and apparently that 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.600 was that was a bridge too far, guys. And so 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.120 I wasn't ever fired or let go or laid off. 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.960 I was asked to come back, and I was at 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:01.640 to come back with a smile on my face and 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.439 just move on. And I did not feel like I 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.399 could do that, and so I wrote a piece about 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:10.240 what actually happened, right, So then I left like six 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:10.760 months later. 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:14.280 Yeah. So I think when people hear stories like this, 0:17:14.400 --> 0:17:17.639 they imagine there's like a lawsuit that follows some something 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:19.960 like this, for like this kind of bad behavior from 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:23.199 a company like that that they benched you, you know, 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.160 I mean in the era following me to the idea 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:32.240 that they benched a female commentator for saying, Hey, exposing 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.280 yourself on you know, a zoom call maybe is not 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.920 the best way to go, and yet you were punished 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.040 for it. So like, is there any repercussions for them? 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:42.600 Will there be? 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:46.400 I mean not really, no. My the repercussion that made 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.040 me happy was that it would be public. And I 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.919 knew that if I attempted a lawsuit, I would have 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.560 a non disparagement or something along those lines, and that 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.760 that would be part of the agreement. And honestly, as 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.600 a contract employee, I don't have them any rights. They 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.280 have every right not to put me on air. That 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:06.960 was a very bad reason to not put me on air, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:09.639 But they can do that because I was not a 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:11.840 full time employee. If I had been a full time employee, 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.199 different scene. But one of my objections, both publicly and 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:19.000 to the HR person that I spoke to, was during 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.080 the era of Me Too, when I was on air, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.520 I was asked to comment on every errant penis in 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:30.320 the entire media, Hollywood, politics, world, over and over and 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:33.919 over again, sports as well, and I rejected the idea 0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:35.800 that this was the one I was not allowed to 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:40.240 talk about. I rejected, that's right, Yeah, I'm not protecting 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:42.320 this one and still talking about all of these. 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.280 Did you feel like was it because you weren't politically 0:18:49.320 --> 0:18:53.840 aligned with CNN's agenda, Like if you had been a 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.119 liberal commentator or you know, just generally on the left, 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.800 do you think the same thing would have happened. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.240 Yeah, I think I hit like a double whammy here, 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.919 which is a woman on the right. There was a 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:12.320 boys club involved, Tuban was part of it. I was not. 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:15.960 I also wasn't part of the ideological club. So it's 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:20.639 just too. It was two strikes against me, And everyone's like, well, 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.480 how much do we care about hearing her errant opinions, 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:29.680 her problematic right wing opinions? They're not that interested unfortunately 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:34.879 in half the country. And again, I just think it 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:40.040 makes it easier to punish someone like me because the 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.520 CNN faithful are not going to be super mad that 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.480 I'm not there, right, that's for sure. 0:19:45.480 --> 0:19:48.680 But surely all the feminists sprang to your defense. 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.480 Right. Oh you know what, I didn't hear from anyone. 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.320 That's uh, that was not my experience, nor did I 0:19:56.320 --> 0:19:57.800 expect it to be. I mean, that's one of the 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:00.919 things too. And this is just sort of not everything. 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:06.200 The left often tries to make everything a sexist issue, 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:08.760 a you know, whatever the ism is of the day, 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.959 and sometimes it's just that, like, life is tough and 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.480 people are self interested in general, and so if you're 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:19.399 asking people to stand up for you, that requires some courage, 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.439 that requires putting next out. And in the TV and 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:26.040 media business and politics, shall we say, that is less 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.560 likely to occur even than other areas. 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.640 Right, So, post CNN, I love your podcast. I think 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.760 you're hilarious. Do you feel like you've made it in 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:39.399 your career? 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.760 Yes? Because making it for me looks different than it 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:46.560 does for other people. And this is something again I 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:48.440 think our friends on the left do not allow for 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:53.920 is that I chose this career path, and despite speed 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.560 bumps that we were just talking about, I chose it 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.480 because I have a flexible schedule. I can hang out 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:02.520 with my kids. I can be there after school for 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.840 my kids if I want to, and spend a lot 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:08.280 of time with family in flexible ways. That's what I 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.800 wanted to do. I often gave up pay to make 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:16.480 that happen. I never wanted to host my own TV show. 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.880 This was not I'm not driven by the news cycle 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.160 enough in the way that one must be to anchor 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.920 an entire show that way. And I think that that 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:33.440 makes me happier and makes me better at reading what 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:38.040 the national mood actually is, because most people are not 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:40.719 driven by the news cycle in the same way that 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.840 we have to be, and so I just don't get 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:48.119 a charge out of that enough to have been like 0:21:49.200 --> 0:21:53.240 the head of a primetime show, right, And so I'm 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:56.080 at peace with that. I get to talk about things 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:57.840 that I like to talk about. I get to have 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:01.359 a little bit of an impact. I get to model 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.880 being the weirdo in the room for my kids and 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.919 critical thinking and all those things that I attempt to 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:13.480 model and sometimes courage sticking up for yourself and that's 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:15.240 what I want to do. That's the more important part 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.199 of a career for me than hitting whatever the c 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:19.680 suite goal is. 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:25.320 Right, So, you have four kids, You had a tragedy 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:28.120 happened in your life where you lost your first husband 0:22:28.880 --> 0:22:33.959 in an accident, and it's recently you passed. Forgot how 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:35.920 many years it was, but you wrote a really beautiful 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:40.040 piece about the normalcy that existed before. You've also written 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.160 a lot about resilience, which I just love and think 0:22:43.200 --> 0:22:47.560 that it's so important to teach resilience in model resilience, 0:22:47.640 --> 0:22:51.119 and You've always just been to me like somebody who's 0:22:51.400 --> 0:22:56.560