1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 1: the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton podcast network on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: I think after the last few days, we need a 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: palette cleanser, So let's talk about sex. People aren't having it. 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: Study after study shows a downward trend in the number 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: of people having sex. One study in twenty twenty one 7 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: showed twenty six percent of adult Americans hadn't had sex 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: in the last year. A large study from two thousand 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: to twenty eighteen showed an increasing number of people eighteen 10 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: to thirty four reported having no sex or far less 11 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: frequent sex than years prior. Nearly forty percent of young 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: adults surveyed in California in twenty twenty one had no 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: sexual partners in the prior year at all. I know 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: California is weird, but still, I feel like in the 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,959 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties and maybe nineties, sex was very much in 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: and now out. All of the comedies of that age 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 1: put sex front and center. For example, I'm not saying 18 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: bring back the gratuitous nudity of the movies of the 19 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, but it's almost like sex has become passe. 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about our declining birth rates in 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: later episodes, but that's not what I mean here. I 22 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: literally mean people are not having sex, and this is 23 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: having a serious negative impact on our society. In November 24 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty one, I wrote a piece for The 25 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: Spectator magazine called Life After Sex. The pandemic was obviously 26 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: pretty un sexy, I wrote, quote, life could not have 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: been less sexy lately, the neighborhood busybody calling the police 28 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: on your backyard party, half of everyone's face covered by 29 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: a mask, everyone drinking too much, staying in their pajamas 30 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: all day, and putting on the quarantine fifteen end quote. 31 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: But it wasn't just that. We've been going going through 32 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: some pretty significant societal changes, I wrote, quote. Social changes 33 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: are also ratcheting down the sexy fifty seven genders only 34 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: sounds cool to a teenager. An adult hearing someone as 35 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: a pan buy trans non binary fem will just tune 36 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: out and go search up porn hub for something that 37 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: makes sense. Porn use, of course, is way up. People 38 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: might not want to have actual sex, but they're not 39 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: giving up their porn. It's a new world. Click click 40 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: relief far easier than making it work in the new normal, 41 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: whatever that is this month sexy is so old fashioned. 42 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: End quote. There's really something to that we used to 43 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 1: accept without too much introspection, what we found generally attractive 44 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: for men. Yes, the Victoria's Secret model type was what 45 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: the majority of men would turn to look at in 46 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: the street. It doesn't mean men aren't attracted to the 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: ninety nine point nine percent of us who don't look 48 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: like these models, but it was just acceptable to say 49 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: these women are beautiful and most men will find them attractive. 50 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: It was obvious. It was right around the time of 51 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: that Spectator piece that Victoria's Secret decided to change their 52 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: whole guiding philosophy around this They announced and I wrote, 53 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: that they'll be phasing out their impossibly gorgeous and fit angels. Instead, 54 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: they'll be going with leading icons and change makers, including 55 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: the soccer star Megan Rapino, the transgender model Valentina Sempeo, 56 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: the plus size model Paloma Elsessor, and seventeen year old 57 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: skier Eileen Goo. These new icons won't be posing in lingerie, 58 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,279 Speaker 1: but sharing their inspirational stories in a ten episode podcast, 59 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: So Hot. End quote. Women don't put on lingerie to 60 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: be inspired, and men don't look at women in lingerie 61 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: to see a change maker. Lingerie is made for sex. 62 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: That obvious statement is no longer obvious. People can be 63 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: attracted to whatever they want, and there's a wide range 64 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: of what people like. But I really oppose the whole 65 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: what you're supposed to like idea for both men and women. 66 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: When the show mad Men was all the rage, women 67 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: loved Don Draper. He was handsome, he was a man's man, 68 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: but also, you know, kind of a lothario who was 69 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: bad to his women. So there were all these hand 70 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: ringing think pieces from self described feminists about how they 71 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: were attracted to him, like TIHI but you know, felt 72 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: so bad about it. By the way, no man in 73 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: history has ever felt bad about who he was attracted to. 74 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: Never ever, I was not attracted to Don Draper. He 75 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: seemed like too much of a project to me. In fact, 76 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: my celebrity crush is Drone from FOUDA kind of a 77 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: hot moment for that right now. But he's like the 78 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: protector guy, and he's a badass, and like my husband, 79 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 1: he's Israeli. That sulking Don Draper guy really did nothing 80 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: for me. And I also didn't feel like there was 81 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: anyone that I was supposed to like or not supposed 82 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: to like, and so it lets me like who I like. 83 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: But so now it feels like men are getting that 84 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 1: same pressure about what they're supposed to like. And that 85 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: helps explain why sex is on the decline. We like 86 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: what we like and being made to feel bad about 87 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: that really doesn't work. We're not going to find some 88 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: do good or attractive just because we're supposed to. I 89 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: say that women have always gotten the advice to not 90 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: be attracted to what they're actually attracted to. I think 91 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: when we see women not consider attraction in the guy 92 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: that they're marrying, that's a problem, and it's one of 93 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: the reasons we see mismatched libidos and marriages. You should 94 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: marry a man who's good to you, who's a good provider, 95 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: who will take care of his family. Yes, yes to 96 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: all of that, but he should also be a man 97 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: you want to have sex with. A marriage without sex 98 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: is a friendship. I sometimes talk about how sex is 99 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,280 Speaker 1: the most important part of a marriage, and it actually 100 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: makes people annoyed because they say no, so many other 101 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: things matter, you know, trust matters, or compatibility matters, and 102 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: of course all of that matters. When I say most 103 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: important thing in a relationship, I don't say only important 104 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,559 Speaker 1: thing in a relationship. A lot of other things matter, 105 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: but sex is really front and center. Otherwise what you 106 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 1: have is a friendship. One of the wild things I 107 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: discovered during that during while I was writing that Spectator 108 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: piece is that there was a study conducted during the 109 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: pandemic that found that cohabiting couples actually masturbated more and 110 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: had sex less during the lockdowns. I mean, that's crazy, 111 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: But I'll side note this by bringing it back to 112 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: my first episode where my monologue was in favor of marriage, 113 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: that married people have more sex than anyone. I bring 114 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: this message to college kids all the time. It's a 115 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: lie that marriage is the end of sex life. In 116 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, it's very much the beginning. So 117 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: what's the point sex is good? Yeah, that's the point 118 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: sex is good. One of my favorite things to hit 119 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: is that we have to point things out, even if 120 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: it's just to ourselves. Treat sex as important. It's useful, 121 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: look for better sleep and better health, lower stress, and 122 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: it's just a good time. So you know, go do 123 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: it right now or after this show is over coming 124 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: up next in interview with Mary Katherine Ham join us 125 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: after the break, I would say that when I was 126 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: thinking about guests that I would have in the future, 127 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: and when I thought about interviewing MK, it was one 128 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: of those where I thought, it's twenty to thirty minutes 129 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: going to be enough because I have a lot of 130 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: things I want to cover with her, but we'll do 131 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: our best to get to everything. And it's so nice 132 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: to have you, Mary Catherine. 133 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for having me. 134 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: So the overall theme of this show is going to 135 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: be how to be happier, how to improve your life, 136 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: but also how to do things like find the right 137 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: relationship or how to make friends in adulthood. And I 138 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: love everything you write. I'm legitimately like, I think you're 139 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: such a beautiful writer. But one of my favorite things 140 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: that you've written was back in twenty seventeen on the 141 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: Federalist website about trying to make mom friends. And it 142 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: was called the internal Monologue of a new Mom making 143 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: Mom Friends, so everybody should google it. It was hilarious 144 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: and brilliant, and so in thinking of this question, I 145 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: also I confused that piece with the interaction the time 146 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: that your daughter peed on a potential friend separate story. 147 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: It's a good one accidentally obviously, but you know, so, 148 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: how is. 149 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 2: Adult potty training comes with certain challenges? 150 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: This plus is and minuses to all friendships. So how 151 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: is the adult friend making going growing up actually making? 152 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: Because I feel like adult friend making sounds like something different. 153 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I did. I think in that piece I 154 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: suggested that there should be basically tender for moms and 155 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, that's weird. Is that that'll get 156 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: a lot of clicks? But I'm not sure that's what 157 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: I mean. So, and I should say, also, just to 158 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: exonerate my poor daughter, yes, she was potty training. I 159 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 2: took her to a park and she said, no, Mom, 160 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: I definitely don't need a diaper today. I am good 161 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 2: to go. And I was like, great, that sounds awesome. 162 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: And when we got in the car, she told me 163 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: I peed at the park and that little girl yelled 164 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: at me, and I said, oh, well, I'm sure she 165 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: was just surprised, you know, no, biggie. And then it 166 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 2: turns out that what happened was the girl was standing 167 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 2: under her on the play structure when this happened. So 168 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 2: still fair, I did not ever get time. I didn't 169 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,439 Speaker 2: ever get in touch with that mom again, but anyway, 170 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: so that friendship was out, but the adult friend making 171 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 2: is pretty good. It's it's an interesting question because I 172 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 2: think when you have kids, you wonder, do I need 173 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: to make a completely different set of friends who also 174 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 2: have kids and are dealing with the same phase of 175 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: life that I'm in, Or can I import my old 176 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: friends who are also moms now, which is kind of 177 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 2: That's a lot of what I've done. I have several 178 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 2: in the area who we were friends before we were moms, 179 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 2: one in particular from college, who we parent similarly, which 180 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: is a huge part of making those kinds of friends, 181 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: and so I do a little bit of that. I 182 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 2: also am thankful that in several neighborhoods I've lived in 183 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: in the DC area, I have had really good friends 184 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 2: nearby who also had similar values and similar parenting styles. 185 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: On the corner I lived in before I moved here, 186 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 2: when I was a single mom, there were two sec 187 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: fan houses on either side of me. Granted, LSU and Auburn, 188 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: but look, you deal with what you deal with when 189 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: you come to another place, and they had you know, 190 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: they understood me and the football and had rough and 191 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 2: tumble kids, and we went through a tough time together 192 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: obviously in my life, and so I was able to 193 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 2: make friends there. And then I moved and I moved 194 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 2: close to an army base, and now I have my 195 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,559 Speaker 2: army mom friends and they are fantastic. 196 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,079 Speaker 1: That sounds really good. Does it being a public person 197 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 1: hinder that or help it? 198 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: I think it hinders it more than anything, because mainly 199 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: because I actually one thing I do in an attempt 200 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 2: to make mom friends or adult friends in my vicinity 201 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: is that I don't engage with their social media until 202 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: after I've talked with them for a while, like, that's 203 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 2: not the first place I want to go. Much like 204 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: your neighborhood lists serve, I feel like the reason you're 205 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 2: going there is more than like you're just going to 206 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 2: end up hating your neighbors, and that's not what I'm 207 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: interested in doing. So there are several friends I have 208 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 2: whom if I had seen their social media first, I 209 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 2: would have assumed a they would dislike me, and be 210 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: that I might not like them. And it turns out 211 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: that social media can just put a different tinge on things. 212 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 2: Not everybody has a very the same tone as I do. 213 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 2: And you know, it could just look very different for 214 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: different people, and it can look very different from their 215 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: real life persona. And so I want to get to 216 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 2: know the real life person and then we can delve 217 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: into that later. With me, that sometimes becomes impossible if 218 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: someone you know, clocks me as a public person first. 219 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: But it hasn't caused a ton of. 220 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: Problems, right, So you've had a really amazing career. I've 221 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I've been along for the 222 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: ride for a lot of it. And you were most 223 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: recently at CNN. I was a splashy departure. Would you 224 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: say that. 225 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair. I felt like I needed 226 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: to get some shots in. 227 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: Can you tell our listeners what happened? 228 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 2: Yes? So I was at CNN from twenty fifteen until 229 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: this spring. Before that, I was at Fox. I actually 230 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: enjoyed very much being at CNN. I went over there 231 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 2: with the intention of being the weirdo on the set, 232 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: being the person who says the thing that other people 233 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 2: don't say. Now, at that time, I think this is 234 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 2: in the very this is in the earlier Zucker years. 235 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: It's as Trump is headed toward the nomination. But we 236 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: didn't know that at the time, and I felt like 237 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: it was a pretty nice place to be and did 238 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 2: responsible work and had Trump supporters and Trump critical commentators 239 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: on mostly every panel I was on, and I enjoyed 240 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: that very much. 241 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: This is the nicest thing anybody's ever said about CNN. 242 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: By the way, well, that was meeting the left. 243 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 2: You know, that was twenty fifteen and sixteen. I do 244 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: felt I feel like it really took a turn and 245 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 2: that this if I am, I allowed to say, pissing 246 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: match between Zucker and Trump led to really bad news 247 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: coverage and really bad incentives because everyone knew that the 248 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 2: more you try to nail Trump, the more airtime you're 249 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,599 Speaker 2: gonna get. And it was very obvious, and it was 250 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 2: obvious to me that I wasn't doing the right things 251 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: to get the airtime. Now that does not mean that 252 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: certain journalists didn't put me on the air. I was 253 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 2: on Tapper Show a lot. There were people who made 254 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: an effort to get me out there. John Berman is 255 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: another one who was fun to be on with. But 256 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: in general, institutionally I was not doing what needed to 257 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 2: be done right in the eyes of management. So my 258 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: career sort of like tailed off in that way. Then 259 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: we hit COVID. Then in twenty twenty one and twenty two, 260 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: I'm off air for months and months and months and months. 261 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: Now I had two babies in two years. So I'm like, 262 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: am I so sad about that? I'm not so sad 263 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: about it, But I am employed by this place, and 264 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: what's happening? So I started asking questions and I can't 265 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: figure out what's happening, Like why am I never on? 266 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 2: I'm pitching columns, nothing, nothing's working. And finally, after Chris 267 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: Lick joins for his short short tenure at CNN, I 268 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 2: get a call from somebody in management or HR who 269 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 2: explains to me what happened. And here's what happened is 270 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 2: that I was put on the bench, suspended without my knowledge. 271 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: Everyone told Zucker, told the shows not to use me 272 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: because I had tweeted criticism of Jeffrey Tuban. 273 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: That is yeah. 274 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Tubban was a legal commentator who was in his 275 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: capacity as at another job, had been caught on a 276 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: zoom pleasuring himself, and he had not been fired from CNN. 277 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: As a result of this interaction, he was benched and 278 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: then brought back somewhat triumphantly with a like an interview 279 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 2: by Alison Camarata. It was very strange and he I 280 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: wondered to myself, how long was I punished for criticizing 281 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: him versus how long he was punished? And the answer 282 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 2: is he was off air for eight months and I 283 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 2: was off air for seven months. Right, So that's the price. 284 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: For saying, get to show anybody anything you know? 285 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 2: No I know, And I thought to myself, man, I 286 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: really I could have had only fans and a career 287 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: and I just had a political commentary career. But no, 288 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 2: it's just so, it's so deeply unfair. Part of it 289 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: was that the context of the conversation that I was 290 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 2: having on Twitter was one where I was critical of 291 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 2: media coverage, including CNN of the congressional baseball shooting that 292 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: rubs people the wrong way. But I felt like it 293 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: needed to be said, and I should not have used 294 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: that phrase that I just used. But right that that 295 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: conversation included this tweet about two but and apparently that 296 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: was that was a bridge too far, guys. And so 297 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: I wasn't ever fired or let go or laid off. 298 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 2: I was asked to come back, and I was at 299 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: to come back with a smile on my face and 300 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 2: just move on. And I did not feel like I 301 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: could do that, and so I wrote a piece about 302 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: what actually happened, right, So then I left like six 303 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: months later. 304 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think when people hear stories like this, 305 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: they imagine there's like a lawsuit that follows some something 306 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: like this, for like this kind of bad behavior from 307 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: a company like that that they benched you, you know, 308 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: I mean in the era following me to the idea 309 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: that they benched a female commentator for saying, Hey, exposing 310 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: yourself on you know, a zoom call maybe is not 311 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: the best way to go, and yet you were punished 312 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: for it. So like, is there any repercussions for them? 313 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: Will there be? 314 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 2: I mean not really, no. My the repercussion that made 315 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: me happy was that it would be public. And I 316 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 2: knew that if I attempted a lawsuit, I would have 317 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 2: a non disparagement or something along those lines, and that 318 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 2: that would be part of the agreement. And honestly, as 319 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: a contract employee, I don't have them any rights. They 320 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: have every right not to put me on air. That 321 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 2: was a very bad reason to not put me on air, 322 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: But they can do that because I was not a 323 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 2: full time employee. If I had been a full time employee, 324 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 2: different scene. But one of my objections, both publicly and 325 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: to the HR person that I spoke to, was during 326 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: the era of Me Too, when I was on air, 327 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 2: I was asked to comment on every errant penis in 328 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 2: the entire media, Hollywood, politics, world, over and over and 329 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 2: over again, sports as well, and I rejected the idea 330 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: that this was the one I was not allowed to 331 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: talk about. I rejected, that's right, Yeah, I'm not protecting 332 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: this one and still talking about all of these. 333 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: Did you feel like was it because you weren't politically 334 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: aligned with CNN's agenda, Like if you had been a 335 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: liberal commentator or you know, just generally on the left, 336 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: do you think the same thing would have happened. 337 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I hit like a double whammy here, 338 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 2: which is a woman on the right. There was a 339 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 2: boys club involved, Tuban was part of it. I was not. 340 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: I also wasn't part of the ideological club. So it's 341 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: just too. It was two strikes against me, And everyone's like, well, 342 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: how much do we care about hearing her errant opinions, 343 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 2: her problematic right wing opinions? They're not that interested unfortunately 344 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 2: in half the country. And again, I just think it 345 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 2: makes it easier to punish someone like me because the 346 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: CNN faithful are not going to be super mad that 347 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: I'm not there, right, that's for sure. 348 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: But surely all the feminists sprang to your defense. 349 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: Right. Oh you know what, I didn't hear from anyone. 350 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: That's uh, that was not my experience, nor did I 351 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 2: expect it to be. I mean, that's one of the 352 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 2: things too. And this is just sort of not everything. 353 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 2: The left often tries to make everything a sexist issue, 354 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 2: a you know, whatever the ism is of the day, 355 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 2: and sometimes it's just that, like, life is tough and 356 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 2: people are self interested in general, and so if you're 357 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 2: asking people to stand up for you, that requires some courage, 358 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: that requires putting next out. And in the TV and 359 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: media business and politics, shall we say, that is less 360 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: likely to occur even than other areas. 361 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: Right, So, post CNN, I love your podcast. I think 362 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: you're hilarious. Do you feel like you've made it in 363 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: your career? 364 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 2: Yes? Because making it for me looks different than it 365 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:46,560 Speaker 2: does for other people. And this is something again I 366 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 2: think our friends on the left do not allow for 367 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 2: is that I chose this career path, and despite speed 368 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: bumps that we were just talking about, I chose it 369 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: because I have a flexible schedule. I can hang out 370 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 2: with my kids. I can be there after school for 371 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: my kids if I want to, and spend a lot 372 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: of time with family in flexible ways. That's what I 373 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: wanted to do. I often gave up pay to make 374 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: that happen. I never wanted to host my own TV show. 375 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 2: This was not I'm not driven by the news cycle 376 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: enough in the way that one must be to anchor 377 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,920 Speaker 2: an entire show that way. And I think that that 378 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: makes me happier and makes me better at reading what 379 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: the national mood actually is, because most people are not 380 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 2: driven by the news cycle in the same way that 381 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 2: we have to be, and so I just don't get 382 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: a charge out of that enough to have been like 383 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: the head of a primetime show, right, And so I'm 384 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: at peace with that. I get to talk about things 385 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,840 Speaker 2: that I like to talk about. I get to have 386 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 2: a little bit of an impact. I get to model 387 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 2: being the weirdo in the room for my kids and 388 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 2: critical thinking and all those things that I attempt to 389 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: model and sometimes courage sticking up for yourself and that's 390 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 2: what I want to do. That's the more important part 391 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 2: of a career for me than hitting whatever the c 392 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 2: suite goal is. 393 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: Right, So, you have four kids, You had a tragedy 394 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: happened in your life where you lost your first husband 395 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 1: in an accident, and it's recently you passed. Forgot how 396 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: many years it was, but you wrote a really beautiful 397 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: piece about the normalcy that existed before. You've also written 398 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: a lot about resilience, which I just love and think 399 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: that it's so important to teach resilience in model resilience, 400 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: and You've always just been to me like somebody who's 401 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: extremely strong, but real and honest and not pretend. So 402 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: how do you show your kids resiliency? What? What's some 403 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: Mary Catherine Ham tips on showing your kids how to 404 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: be resilient? 405 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, first off, I would say that I would 406 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 2: just like to note the fact that when we met 407 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 2: and were drinking cocktails in Manhattan, when we used to 408 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: hang out, the idea that if you had told us 409 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 2: that between us we'd have seven kids. Now, yeah, I'm 410 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 2: not bringing up most of them. 411 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: I mean you have you know, you have the majority here. 412 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure we would have bought that. We 413 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: both didn't. 414 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: Want to get married, you know, Loos. 415 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: It was a different time time. But yeah, I think, Look, 416 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: I think my kids aren't going to for a long 417 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 2: time understand what was happening to me during that time. 418 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 2: And I don't want them to write I wanted them. 419 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 2: I wanted to sort of get through that giving them 420 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 2: as little of my trauma as possible. And that is 421 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: something I think people have really lost sight of, which 422 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 2: is that you are opposed to stand in the breach 423 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 2: for your kids. They are not your emotional crutch. Yes, 424 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: I want to have an open relationship with them, and 425 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 2: we work on communicating and all that, but there are 426 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: things that they are not called to deal with, and 427 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: in this particular case, especially, they were too young to 428 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: have trauma from this loss. One was my toddler was 429 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 2: two and barely verbal, and my young second was unborn. 430 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: I was seven months pregnant, so I knew that was 431 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: very helpful to me by the way, being pregnant, because 432 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: I knew I had to sort of keep it between 433 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 2: the navigational beacons to get this kid born safely, and 434 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,360 Speaker 2: that that was my first priority. And then parenting led 435 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 2: me to do the same thing. This is my priority. 436 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean I neglect myself, but it does mean 437 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,160 Speaker 2: that I'm really careful about the ways that I lean 438 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 2: on them and the ways that I try to get 439 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 2: through life. So I know I need to put that 440 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: baggage now do I hope someday that they understand it 441 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 2: a little bit. Sure, But to me, the more important 442 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,399 Speaker 2: thing is the day to day resilience in them, having 443 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 2: seen all of us as a family just get up 444 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: every day and do what we need to do. One 445 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 2: of the things I did in the very early days 446 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 2: because I there were times, as there are for anybody 447 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 2: who's going through something big, where you can't put together 448 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 2: an entire day, maybe you can't even put together half 449 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: a day. But the thing that I did was I 450 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 2: made sure that I got up and gave my kids 451 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 2: breakfast every morning. And to me, that was a very 452 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: material It was often a hot breakfast. I was like, 453 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:39,719 Speaker 2: look at me, I'm killing it. 454 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: Guys, I don't do that, but it's your own cereal, yes, milk. 455 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 2: It felt very concrete that I was doing the right 456 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 2: thing by them if I could get that done and 457 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: then they go to nap, and then I the rest 458 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: of the day's a waste. The rest of the day's 459 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 2: a waste, right, So I think seeing maybe learning some 460 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 2: of those tools, watching me do some of that over 461 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 2: the years, I hope translates. The other thing I think 462 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 2: during COVID and other times that have been scary, is 463 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: just to be rational about my concerns and to communicate 464 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 2: those concerns rationally. You know, when COVID came around, we 465 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 2: weren't quite sure what it looked like, but we did 466 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 2: know that it was not as dangerous to young people, 467 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: and it wasn't as dangerous to mom and dad, who 468 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 2: are healthy and in their forties, and so I made 469 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: sure that they knew that, and I told them, we're 470 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: also going to be like a little bit more careful 471 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: about the grandparents, but it doesn't mean we're going to 472 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: never talk to them, which is apparently what some people did. 473 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, keeping your head about you in 474 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 2: those times is really important for kids, and then hopefully 475 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 2: when they're adults, they will also stand in the breach 476 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: for their kids, because it's really I really feel like 477 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:55,119 Speaker 2: a lot of people lost sight of that. 478 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I think the last few years have just 479 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: been people kind of covering up there already, you know, 480 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: previously held opinions with these new neurosis, like the grandparents, 481 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 1: Like how many people took the opportunity to never see 482 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: their in laws because they really trying to protect you 483 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: from the COVID, you know, like can't take any chances, right, 484 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: So I think that and people who wanted to work 485 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: from home or people who wanted to stay home all 486 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: the time and didn't want to go out kind of 487 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: used all of that as an excuse as well. So 488 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: to wrap up, I like to ask my guests to 489 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: end with the best tip for listeners on how they 490 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: can improve their lives. What do you think? 491 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm going I'm going to give two, even 492 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: though that's like a very pundity thing to do, but 493 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: they're both. They're both fairly practical and small. So the 494 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: first one is whenever things are going off, like feel 495 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 2: like they might be going off the rails for me, 496 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 2: and this included after Jake died. Sometimes life is literally 497 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 2: just about putting one foot in front of the other, 498 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 2: and if you can physically do that by taking a walk, 499 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: it will get you in a better place. Being outside 500 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: is good for you. Walking is good for you doing it. 501 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 2: This is awful important stuff. Yeah, you just literally touch grass. 502 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: And I did that in the days after Jake died. 503 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 2: I made sure I got outside every day, and of 504 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: course I was pregnant at the time. But drink more 505 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 2: water than wine is also a good rule of them. 506 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 2: But the second one is and I tweeted about this recently, 507 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: and I think it's a fairly simple fix for a 508 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 2: lot of people who might be in a bad place 509 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: when it comes to parenting. There's so much drama around parenting, 510 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: and it's a hard job, but it's also a beautiful 511 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: job and a fun job. And if you can surround 512 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 2: yourself with parents who really enjoy their children and don't 513 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 2: dwell on the drama and the hard parts as much 514 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 2: as they do the parts that they enjoy, for instance, 515 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: getting off maybe the Facebook mom group, which can be 516 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 2: almost inevitably toxic, and putting yourself with a group chat 517 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 2: of maybe some moms who look we all have struggles, 518 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 2: but we're also focusing on how much we actually enjoy 519 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 2: our families. That who you surround yourself with is going 520 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: to make a huge difference. And I try very hard 521 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: to make sure that I'm surrounded by people who, although 522 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 2: they have struggles, are not focusing on that one hundred 523 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: percent of the time. 524 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 1: I love that. I really do think that your mood 525 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: is so often decided by who you're surrounded by, and 526 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,440 Speaker 1: if you're around miserable people who hate their kids or 527 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 1: hate their lives, it's going to rub off on you. 528 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: So I think that's really excellent advice. Well, thank you 529 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: so much, Mary Catherine, you are amazing. Subscribe to her 530 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: substack and listen to her amazing podcast Getting Hammered. I 531 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: listen all the time. Thank you so much for being on. 532 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Excited to be here. You make 533 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 2: it easy, Carol, everybody listen all the time. This is great. 534 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Markowitch Show. 535 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.