Speaker 1: Well, hey Angel fans, and welcome back to Halo Territory
Speaker 1: on Mike D. Giovanni, former Eli Times Baseball writer, joined
Speaker 1: by Mark Trumbo, my regular co host and former Angel slugger.
Speaker 1: And if you're watching us on YouTube, you can see
Speaker 1: we have a very special guest today, Jim Palmer, the
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame pitcher, the three time Cy Young Award winner,
Speaker 1: the three time World Series champion, h and broadcast analysts
Speaker 1: for the Baltimore Orioles. Jim, really appreciate you joining us today.
Speaker 1: How you doing.
Speaker 2: I'm good. Thanks, nice to be with.
Speaker 1: You, all right, Really appreciate it. So we thought, in
Speaker 1: the wake of the Angels sell off at the trade deadline,
Speaker 1: it would be interesting to examine the challenges for teams
Speaker 1: that are quote unquote playing out the string. How guys
Speaker 1: approached the final two months of a season in which
Speaker 1: they have nothing to play for.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Jim Palmer has never experienced that as a player. This
Speaker 1: is hard. I looked it up. I couldn't believe this.
Speaker 2: Jim.
Speaker 1: The Orioles had one losing season in your twenty two
Speaker 1: years in Baltimore. But as an Oriols TV analyst, there's
Speaker 1: no better example than twenty eighteen. The Orioles were thirty
Speaker 1: two and seventy five and forty two games back on
Speaker 1: July thirty first, and they traded away a big chunk
Speaker 1: of the MLB roster, including Manny Machado, Zach Britton, Kevin Gossman,
Speaker 1: Jonathan Shoop and others in a matter of days. Now
Speaker 1: Jim as a broadcaster and a franchise icon. What was
Speaker 1: that period like inside the organization and especially for the
Speaker 1: fan base.
Speaker 3: Well, obviously the fan base wasn't happy. I mean, this
Speaker 3: was the team, you know that, well twenty fourteen and
Speaker 3: again Mark wasn't there. I think Mark Urud did what
Speaker 3: twenty and sixteen when he led the American League at
Speaker 3: home runs with forty seven, But in the club, you know,
Speaker 3: so what they were ninety six and sixty sixty two
Speaker 3: in fourteen, fifteen, eighty one and eighty one, seen eighty
Speaker 3: nine and seventy three marks first year there, and then
Speaker 3: progressively if you look, I mean, seventy five and eighty seven,
Speaker 3: and then they would end up what forty.
Speaker 2: Seven, one hundred and fifteen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I don't think he really wanted to
Speaker 3: sign in Baltimore, even you know, years earlier, Dan Toquet
Speaker 3: was the general manager. He said, do you think Manny
Speaker 3: would what's sign an extension? I go, well, I'll go
Speaker 3: ask him.
Speaker 2: So early on.
Speaker 3: This is not twenty eighteen. This is like, you know,
Speaker 3: he's you know, I've had some knee problems. He had
Speaker 3: both lika mins and is right and left knee fixed
Speaker 3: by I think alatrosh Elatroshi. And I went down the cage.
Speaker 3: I said, hey, would you sign the sentient? He said,
Speaker 3: of course. But again, when you go into your free
Speaker 3: agent year, things change and guys are making more money
Speaker 3: and whatever. So this is a club that got aggressively worse.
Speaker 3: I mean, Mark was there. I mean, I mean I
Speaker 3: did four and thirty two finishes with the Oriels. I
Speaker 3: did fourteen straight losing years, you know, from like nineteen
Speaker 3: eighty nine, all the way till when Showwater came I think,
Speaker 3: and came what twenty eleven at their first winning year
Speaker 3: in twenty twelve. So obviously, when you're as good as
Speaker 3: the Ools were, you know, now as they were in
Speaker 3: ninety you know in two thousand.
Speaker 4: What.
Speaker 1: Ninety seven, we're in the playoffs.
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, exactly, Well, I mean go way back in
Speaker 3: and also team so again, you know, the fan expected
Speaker 3: him to be better than they were. But Dan Duke
Speaker 3: was saying, Okay, we're not winning. I mean, like I said,
Speaker 3: we ended up forty seven and a hundred and fifteen.
Speaker 3: Let's get the best deals we can. I'm not really
Speaker 3: sure they did, because they probably waited a year long
Speaker 3: longer to trade Manny Machiado than they should have. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's always a really tough one. Manny I think one
Speaker 3: of the most understood players in the game. He was
Speaker 3: an excellent teammate and I just wanted to get that
Speaker 3: part in there. This is the first time the Angels
Speaker 3: have really leaned into people don't like to use the
Speaker 3: R word, but you know, you get walks like a duck,
Speaker 3: you're gonna call it a duck. So what I'm wondering,
Speaker 3: if you can help the fans, what what does a
Speaker 3: rebuild feel like for for the players, for the broadcasters,
Speaker 3: for you know, people that are day to day involved,
Speaker 3: having to kind of, you know, put their best effort
Speaker 3: forward knowing the wins aren't aren't going to pile up.
Speaker 2: Well, obviously, for the fans, I think it gives them hope.
Speaker 3: I mean, the oil is a perfect example Michaelias comes
Speaker 3: after the forty seven and one hundred and fifteen you know,
Speaker 3: one lost record in twenty eighteen, so he comes to
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen and he announces, Hey, we're going to do.
Speaker 2: A rebuild, and how are we going to do that?
Speaker 3: We're we're not going to be as bad as forty
Speaker 3: seven and one hundred and fifteen. Well, we're going to
Speaker 3: kind of do what they did down in Houston, where
Speaker 3: you know, you're going to hope, hopefully you'll play poorly.
Speaker 3: You get the draft high. Allie Rushman, who just got
Speaker 3: you know, traded up to Boston, was the first draft
Speaker 3: choice two thousand nineteen. I had a good friend with
Speaker 3: one of the Oil scouts. He begged them take Bobby,
Speaker 3: not that Allie's not going to be a good player,
Speaker 3: but Bobby went junior three years younger. A player is
Speaker 3: going to play one hundred and fifty five tow one
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty games a year based on catcher, maybe
Speaker 3: catching one hundred, one hundred and twenty five and probably
Speaker 3: more signable.
Speaker 2: And of course we know how good Wit is.
Speaker 3: But they chose Adlie and and you know when when
Speaker 3: Adley came in twenty twenty two, that was kind of
Speaker 3: at least and I think in the fans' minds and
Speaker 3: really the ools that this team was going to get better.
Speaker 3: And he really played well in twenty two, twenty three,
Speaker 3: all the way up to the All Star break in
Speaker 3: twenty four. I don't know if he had injuries, but
Speaker 3: all of a sudden he struggled. Last year, he had
Speaker 3: won thirty three with runners in scoring position. The league
Speaker 3: average is about two fifty one, so again, there was
Speaker 3: something going on.
Speaker 2: This year.
Speaker 3: He was having a pretty good year, and the word
Speaker 3: is I don't know. You know that he wasn't going
Speaker 3: to sign an extension. The writer called me and he said,
Speaker 3: do you know for a fact? I said no. I said,
Speaker 3: why don't you ask the GM Mike Elias. He wouldn't
Speaker 3: have because I think if he did, he would set
Speaker 3: up pressent Because Gotter Henderson two years from now, when
Speaker 3: he's has another year on his contract before he become
Speaker 3: a free agent, you're going to go, well, he's going
Speaker 3: to trade him. So what if you're an Oriol fan
Speaker 3: or and you know again they trade Adlie Rutchman and
Speaker 3: they're only it's a false god. As far as I'm concerned,
Speaker 3: when you're not playing well. But they're only two and
Speaker 3: a half games out of the wild Cards, so they're still.
Speaker 2: In the race.
Speaker 3: Even though to do that, I think you had to play.
Speaker 3: And they're at eleven and what I think they're fifteen
Speaker 3: or sixteen and ten in their last twenty six games,
Speaker 3: so they're playing better. But again the Red Sox what
Speaker 3: twenty three and five except ardiculous, And you know we helped.
Speaker 3: We made four eras first night in Boston. They should
Speaker 3: have ended the wind streak, but we didn't. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean, Mark, you know as well as I you
Speaker 3: were there in twenty eighteen. It's it's kind of depressing
Speaker 3: in one sense. But if you're play and you get replaced,
Speaker 3: just to think of the opportunity last night against the Angels,
Speaker 3: Kate Povitch pitches against one of my favorite young pitchers,
Speaker 3: you know, in Grayson Ron Reguez. Except obviously we know
Speaker 3: you have to be able to stay healthy. So it
Speaker 3: gives all the young players opportunities, so they probably look
Speaker 3: at it a little more positively. But again, if you're broadcasting,
Speaker 3: you're still I mean, you're preparing for the game.
Speaker 2: You're hoping they win. There's why are people want TV
Speaker 2: or Orial TV.
Speaker 3: They went.
Speaker 1: Now Mark the Orioles went fifteen and forty in August
Speaker 1: and September of twenty eighteen. Do you remember what Camden Yard?
Speaker 1: I mean, Candon Yard is one of my favorite plays
Speaker 1: to watch baseball throughout the nineties. Places just rocking. This
Speaker 1: is a great atmosphere, playoff atmosphere every night. What do
Speaker 1: you recall it being like those last two months of
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen?
Speaker 3: The on field play was at fault. I mean, the
Speaker 3: fans continue to support, Maybe the stands weren't quite as
Speaker 3: crowded as they would be for a team playing significantly better.
Speaker 3: But as a player, you do the best you can,
Speaker 3: and I took a lot of pride and giving my
Speaker 3: best effort despite the fact the team wasn't doing well.
Speaker 3: It looks even worse if you just are pouting and quitting.
Speaker 3: It's bad enough already, don't make it worse. And for
Speaker 3: a lot of you know, in my situation, I was
Speaker 3: an older player, had signed a contract and wanted to
Speaker 3: honor that contract, and I felt like because of that,
Speaker 3: there was nothing else to do but give my best effort.
Speaker 3: If we happen to rack up you know, another loss
Speaker 3: that night, you just kind of have to eat it. Unfortunately,
Speaker 3: what happens on teams that are really bad, losing gets
Speaker 3: too familiar and it doesn't sting. And when it doesn't sting,
Speaker 3: I think that's a big deal. Now, in Jim's case,
Speaker 3: I don't think you played on too many teams that
Speaker 3: were under five hundred. Maybe it was astounding when I
Speaker 3: looked at the Orioles records while you were a player there. Yeah, well,
Speaker 3: I mean I liked well, I lucked out because I
Speaker 3: was a a couple of years before the draft, and
Speaker 3: you know, Houston offered.
Speaker 2: Me more money.
Speaker 3: I ended up signing with the Oriols at night. Ten
Speaker 3: teams called the next day. But I think I made
Speaker 3: the right decision. You know, you know six World Series,
Speaker 3: we won three of them. I mean, even the ones
Speaker 3: we lost, other than the Mets series, where I mean
Speaker 3: it's just bad experience because you know, on fire breaks
Speaker 3: they were obviously the amazing Messs, so they were a
Speaker 3: good team. But the two series and seventy one and
Speaker 3: seventy nine against the Pirates, they were great. You know,
Speaker 3: seven game World Series, you lose two to one, you
Speaker 3: lose I think five to one in the seventy nine
Speaker 3: World Series on the final day, So you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: I was. I was really lucky. And then, you know,
Speaker 3: how do you win many games as I did. You
Speaker 3: play on good teams, which is why I never left.
Speaker 3: I mean, I knew that all I had to do
Speaker 3: is try to figure out how to stay healthy, be
Speaker 3: able to go out there thirty eight, thirty nine, forty
Speaker 3: t times a year, and I was gonna win a
Speaker 3: lot of games because we did a lot of things,
Speaker 3: you know, right, And to Mark's point, teams that don't
Speaker 3: they beat themselves, They lose the one run games they're
Speaker 3: you know, they don't expect to win. So you do
Speaker 3: play for yourself, you know. The late Mike flank And
Speaker 3: used to always say when we would trade for a
Speaker 3: guy that came from a losing team, you said, you
Speaker 3: just can see he does not play for the name
Speaker 3: on the field of the uniform. They're used to playing
Speaker 3: for the team that you know, their name on the
Speaker 3: back of the uniform, which for themselves. And that's kind
Speaker 3: of what losing teams it kind of it kind of
Speaker 3: fosters that in a sense, and that that's not the
Speaker 3: way he play the game.
Speaker 1: I believe Marquez The next question, Okay, where are.
Speaker 3: The Orioles go? What are they doing? They trade badly.
Speaker 3: I understand if he wasn't interested in signing a contract extension,
Speaker 3: then logically I think that that does make sense. They
Speaker 3: but they've already done one rebuild, very painful. It took
Speaker 3: a while, but it did pay off, not in the
Speaker 3: form of a world series, but they did have a
Speaker 3: lot of success under Brandon Hyde. You know, some good seasons,
Speaker 3: and they reshuffled. There's new instructors every year. You and
Speaker 3: I have talked about some of this, but you know,
Speaker 3: the Angels are doing it for the first time, and
Speaker 3: I guess you want to get it right and try
Speaker 3: and emulate teams that have sustained success. Brewers raised teams
Speaker 3: like that unless you're a big spender. But what do
Speaker 3: you see from the Oels now? Just is this just
Speaker 3: a reshuffling, restocking? What's going on?
Speaker 2: That's a good question.
Speaker 3: You know, when Michael Eyes came in twenty nineteen, he said,
Speaker 3: we're going to create an elite pipeline. Now again, when
Speaker 3: you're drafting number one, you hope that you know again,
Speaker 3: I mean, they take Adlie over Bobby with Junior. They
Speaker 3: do get Gunner Henderson, who was I think the fortieth
Speaker 3: pick that year. So pretty talented player, even though this
Speaker 3: year he's been struggling, you know, and then they don't
Speaker 3: draft pitchers. That's why I think the Adelie Ruschman trade,
Speaker 3: you know, in getting Taylor Word who you know, was
Speaker 3: with the Angels hit thirty six home runs career high.
Speaker 3: I mean normally years, what twenty three, twenty six, somewhere
Speaker 3: in that range when he's healthy, but he only hit
Speaker 3: seven one at Camping Yards. Now they could change left
Speaker 3: field used to be three sixty four. Now it went
Speaker 3: to three ninety eight. Now it's back in a little bit.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's you know, it's kind of weird, but
Speaker 3: I think they thought they had a team that could compete.
Speaker 3: But again, one of their best young players is Jordan Westburn.
Speaker 3: And when you take him out of the lineup, you know,
Speaker 3: the Oarls don't beat lefties. You know, they're going to
Speaker 3: face Red Deptner's tonight and I'm going, okay, not only
Speaker 3: is he a good pitcher, he's left handed. What did
Speaker 3: Pete Rose say, if you're breathing in your left handed
Speaker 3: you got a chance to play. So you know, again
Speaker 3: we are in a rebuild of sense, but a lot
Speaker 3: of times when you know, like when they traded Cini
Speaker 3: and Lopez and what twenty twenty twenty two, after only
Speaker 3: winning fifty some games a year before, Mike Alas said,
Speaker 3: well left off, Well, then you trade two of your
Speaker 3: better players. But in twenty three they you know, they
Speaker 3: won one hundred one games, and you know, after going
Speaker 3: from fifty seven to eighty three, then one hundred and
Speaker 3: one and ninety one. So again this is a team
Speaker 3: that you think on paper, I mean they'd signed Pete Launce.
Speaker 3: They traded for Shane Bobs, who has pitched a lot
Speaker 3: better than his record because they don't score any runs
Speaker 3: for him. You know, they've had some injuries, you know, Helsley,
Speaker 3: they got him as a closer.
Speaker 2: He's been popping on the il. You know.
Speaker 3: Trevor Rodgers last year had his the most incredible seventeen
Speaker 3: game streak that I've ever seen, and I've been in
Speaker 3: baseball over sixty years. Had a one thirty one ERA
Speaker 3: after which seventeen starts, you know, you go on a run.
Speaker 3: I mean I went on a run once where I
Speaker 3: you know, I had thirty three in the third, scoreless
Speaker 3: innings and you think you're not going to get you
Speaker 3: any run. But to do that, he gave up six
Speaker 3: runs in his last startup in New York because he
Speaker 3: you know, for eighteen starts one to eighty one and
Speaker 3: he started out poorly. Now he's pitching as well as anybody,
Speaker 3: but they haven't extended him. So I don't I don't
Speaker 3: know what they're going to do. They have the highest
Speaker 3: payroll I think in the history of the Orioles and
Speaker 3: they're three games und five hundred. So again, is this
Speaker 3: a rebuild? I don't think so. But once again, you
Speaker 3: know the Ali Rushman trade. You know, you don't think
Speaker 3: it's going to happen till it does. One of the
Speaker 3: writers called me last night and they said, well, do
Speaker 3: you know that he turned down an extension And I
Speaker 3: said no, I said, why don't you ask the GM
Speaker 3: And he said, well I did, you wouldn't answer it
Speaker 3: because if you did, that means when Gutter Henderson two
Speaker 3: years from now and he's Scott Boris.
Speaker 2: You know, he's one of the best agents in baseball.
Speaker 3: But automatically, if he doesn't sign an extension, he's going
Speaker 3: to be traded in the middle of the season, So
Speaker 3: I don't think you want to verbally set that precedent.
Speaker 3: So it'll be very interesting what they do. But they
Speaker 3: needed pitching. Apparently they got from the Red Sox two
Speaker 3: really good prospects.
Speaker 2: But Mark knows as well as I do.
Speaker 3: You know, cal RIKENSII always say there's suspects in their prospects,
Speaker 3: and the prospects get the chance to get to the
Speaker 3: big leaguers probably a little bit sooner, whether you got
Speaker 3: a big lot of money to sign or you know,
Speaker 3: you throw ninety eight or whatever. But the minute you
Speaker 3: get to the big leagues, you're a suspect again until
Speaker 3: you prove that you can play the game at a
Speaker 3: high level.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he Ken Rosen. Ken Rosenthal in the Foul Territory
Speaker 1: Network has mentioning things to say about this Rushman deal.
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.
Speaker 4: The Rushman trade to me was the defining trade of
Speaker 4: this deadline. It was fascinating ADLEI Rushman going to the
Speaker 4: Boston Red Sox for a number of prospects, and it
Speaker 4: kind of, as I wrote, demonstrated two teams at opposite extremes.
Speaker 4: The Orioles, a team that was supposedly going to be
Speaker 4: a commpetitive contending type club by now. They talked about
Speaker 4: lift off their president base operations Michael Oias did in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. They didn't lift off, they haven't crashed,
Speaker 4: but they've kind of gone nowhere, and now they've traded
Speaker 4: the guy they picked number one over Bobby Wick Junior
Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, the guy that was really the signature
Speaker 4: piece of their rebuild, the guy who they talked about
Speaker 4: keeping forever and yet never signed to a long term extension.
Speaker 4: That guy is, of course, Rushman. And the reason that
Speaker 4: this trade for the Orioles was so deflating to so
Speaker 4: many of their fans is that it kind of acknowledges
Speaker 4: that the whole thing hasn't gone according to plan. Fans
Speaker 4: are asked all the time, trust the process, stay with us,
Speaker 4: their Oriols fans did. Through some really hard years. They tanked,
Speaker 4: they got some big picks, and now they are not
Speaker 4: starting over, but certainly retooling in a way that is
Speaker 4: going to require more patience. Now they've got pieces in
Speaker 4: place going forward, they'll be okay. They've got Alonso and
Speaker 4: they've got Basaiosne signed long term. They've got pieces in
Speaker 4: their rotation. Pob Bradish. Of course, Shane Boz. Long term,
Speaker 4: they can extend a qualifying offer to Trevor Rodgers. But
Speaker 4: fans are right to ask, hey, man, what's going on here?
Speaker 4: Why is that?
Speaker 1: Jim as Mark said, the Angels are finally committed to
Speaker 1: a rebuild. It's really the first time since I can
Speaker 1: ever remember. But are the Orioles with What's going on now?
Speaker 1: Something of a cautionary tale for the Angels, especially they're
Speaker 1: fans who might be thinking this is a smooth, linear process.
Speaker 3: Well, it worked for the Oriols. It's just they couldn't
Speaker 3: sustain it, and could you know. So they went one.
Speaker 2: Hundred and one and then they win ninety one.
Speaker 3: They go to the playoffs two years ago, they get
Speaker 3: swept by the Rangers, who win the World Series in
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three. That's a good club, but it had
Speaker 3: an inexperienced club. And you know, Brad's got beat in
Speaker 3: game one, really good game. I think it gave three
Speaker 3: runs and Oils didn't score. And then Grace and Rodriguez
Speaker 3: Dean Kramer who's Jewish, right after what happened in two
Speaker 3: thousand and seven, and he's going to go start a
Speaker 3: playoff game, and a lot of things on his mind, man,
Speaker 3: other than baseball. What happened in Israel or in Gaza.
Speaker 3: So and then the next year they play Kansas City,
Speaker 3: and you know, they lose, what three to two, and
Speaker 3: then they lose two to one. So they're a good team,
Speaker 3: but they're not a great team. And then you know,
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you know, next year they start
Speaker 3: out fifteen and twenty eight and I'm on the elevator
Speaker 3: in Anaheim and the club's not playing well. You know,
Speaker 3: it's game three of the Ools playing in Anaheim, and
Speaker 3: Mike Elias, the GM says, you ever see a team
Speaker 3: go from all the way up here to the bottom?
Speaker 3: And I said, not one with good pitching. And you know,
Speaker 3: you went back to your point. I never played on
Speaker 3: a team that didn't have good pitching. So you're in games,
Speaker 3: your players think you're in games. I don't know, Mark,
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not going to speak for you, but
Speaker 3: because you were a terrific hitter, but if you don't
Speaker 3: think you have to get seven or eight runs a game, yet,
Speaker 3: you can get three or four, or I can get
Speaker 3: a big hit, or I'm going to be involved versus
Speaker 3: not going to be a slug fester every night. I
Speaker 3: think you got to think you have a better chance
Speaker 3: of winning games. And all the good clubs I played
Speaker 3: on had excellent pitching. That's a perfect segue. I was
Speaker 3: going to ask you I personally like short starts four
Speaker 3: and a third hundred pitches.
Speaker 1: No, I don't. And it's been.
Speaker 3: The downfall of many you know, the Angels have struggled
Speaker 3: in a number of areas, but one short start not
Speaker 3: only taxes that night bullpen, but the games to come,
Speaker 3: and it's been really tough. My question that was really
Speaker 3: going to be what are they getting right? And maybe
Speaker 3: the opposite of right with the modern pitching. We just
Speaker 3: watched the miz You know, I used to throwing a
Speaker 3: million really impressive arm. There's still a guy's doing well.
Speaker 3: Grayson did give them length last night. He went seven innings,
Speaker 3: but the majority of the time I'm seeing these guys
Speaker 3: look awfully happy after their five innings, and for you,
Speaker 3: that would have been a I mean, it's just done unfathomable.
Speaker 3: I'm assuming five innings that's a failure. Well, we had
Speaker 3: a guy that just got traded a starting pitcher, and
Speaker 3: about three years ago he went to Cincinnati took place
Speaker 3: to pitch, but just four innings, it was up ten hits,
Speaker 3: six runs.
Speaker 2: So I didn't. I mean I watched the game.
Speaker 3: But and then I'm going down to Houston to the games,
Speaker 3: and I was talking to the locker room and I said,
Speaker 3: you know what went on in Cincinnati. I mean, I
Speaker 3: kind of watched the game. He said, well, you know,
Speaker 3: I actually kind of like my metrics and my pitch shapes.
Speaker 2: And I looked at him. Can I give you a
Speaker 2: little girl Weaver? He goes, or a Weaver.
Speaker 3: I said, yeah, the Hall of Fame manager that's got
Speaker 3: a statue at you know in Campion Yards. I said,
Speaker 3: if you told Weaver to your point mark, when you
Speaker 3: blew out the bullpen by only going four innings, give
Speaker 3: up ten hits and six runs, and you told him
Speaker 3: that you liked your pitch shape or patricks, he would
Speaker 3: have said, so did the kid, and if you keep
Speaker 3: that up, you'll be down a triple A Rochester. So
Speaker 3: the game is different. You know, a couple of years ago,
Speaker 3: they don't like me to talk to the pitchers or
Speaker 3: or even being around him because the media is kind
Speaker 3: of the necessary evil in Baltimore with the pr people.
Speaker 3: But I suck into the locker room before opening day
Speaker 3: and Tyler Wells, you just got traded down to Tampa Bay.
Speaker 3: Actually pretty good. Was pitching really well for the Oils.
Speaker 3: So that's another trade. I mean, look at Brian Baker's
Speaker 3: number they traded him last year. I think he's got
Speaker 3: close to thirty saves. So just Tampa obviously, you know
Speaker 3: they know what they're going to do with their pitching.
Speaker 3: But so tider Wells said, you throw a lot of pitches,
Speaker 3: and I said, well, the year I was twenty, everybody
Speaker 3: got hurt in spring training. I thought I was going
Speaker 3: to Triple A and I you know, my first start
Speaker 3: was in Fenway Park. I throw one hundred and seventy
Speaker 3: seven pitches, you know, strike out seven, walk seven, hit
Speaker 3: a home run off Dave More had to pitch before.
Speaker 3: And then of course they sent him out the next
Speaker 3: day because he hung our curve ball, almost shit it
Speaker 3: to the turnpike. And they asked start pitching coach, Harry
Speaker 3: the Kapercine, you know, really great left handed pitcher for
Speaker 3: the Cardinals, who's our pitching coach. It's a lot of
Speaker 3: pitches for a twenty year old, he said, yeah, we
Speaker 3: want to get that pitch count down into the one forties.
Speaker 2: So tdder Wells is starting to last. But that's the
Speaker 2: way it was.
Speaker 3: I mean, you did what you could do. And I
Speaker 3: mean I know because we pissed every four day that
Speaker 3: you can throw one hundred and twenty five thirty forty
Speaker 3: pitches in your sleep if you have a good wind up,
Speaker 3: if you know how to pitch. And I guess my
Speaker 3: point about the oil pitcher who just got traded to
Speaker 3: the Midwest is that it's not a It's about can
Speaker 3: you what's the hitter doing when you come through the
Speaker 3: minor leagues? And I think in a ball, I mean
Speaker 3: I walked one hundred and thirty one hundred and twenty
Speaker 3: nine innings, went to instructional league, so I pitched one
Speaker 3: hundred and eighty innings, probably walked on a hundred ninety guys.
Speaker 3: The next year, I'm in the big leagues. But I
Speaker 3: got to pitch. I got to earn how to get
Speaker 3: hitters out. I didn't have somebody on the iPad that
Speaker 3: I'm talking on right now saying, well, you know your.
Speaker 2: Spin rate is this, and you know you need to
Speaker 2: real ball and you need to do all that the.
Speaker 3: Hitters told me what I needed to throw. I used
Speaker 3: to have and I don't know if you ever did
Speaker 3: this mark when you're a young player, even when you're
Speaker 3: an older player. I used to have guys that wanted
Speaker 3: to see live pitching come down and when I'm throwing
Speaker 3: my side or before a game, I wanted to hit
Speaker 3: her standing up there. I wanted to simulate what the
Speaker 3: game was going to be like when the game started.
Speaker 3: And meanwhile, I mean, if I'm like, we have a
Speaker 3: a rule of five guy, you know, or a number
Speaker 3: one draft choice, five million dollar player, Colden Capser doesn't
Speaker 3: hit lefties, doesn't It strikes out too much. It was
Speaker 3: a back to ball guy in college. He doesn't hit
Speaker 3: left handers. Every time Trevor Rodgers would throw, were now
Speaker 3: Kate Povid, who pitched against the Angels last night, I'd
Speaker 3: be down there track and pitches.
Speaker 2: I know they have all the machines, but there's nothing
Speaker 2: like seeing.
Speaker 3: The ball out of your hand. One of the greatest
Speaker 3: articles ever was Sporting News with Tony gwyn and Stam
Speaker 3: Musual talking about what they saw the pitcher delivers the ball.
Speaker 3: Now that's thirty six and twenty hits and a batting titles, saying,
Speaker 3: we noticed the speed of the ball out of the hand. No,
Speaker 3: I don't know if you agree with that, but tracking pitches,
Speaker 3: you know, it's pretty important when you're trying to be
Speaker 3: and I do agree, but it cuts into your rest
Speaker 3: and recovery time. So hitt feel that in practice is uh,
Speaker 3: it's just not what it used to be. Two three guys,
Speaker 3: I said, where is everybody flarity? When they came into
Speaker 3: town last year in the Cubs? I said, this is
Speaker 3: it justin Turner and one other? But but no, I
Speaker 3: mean all aside the game. The game has changed. Guys
Speaker 3: don't play in practice outside as much. They need two
Speaker 3: and a half hours of quiet time. What is when
Speaker 3: you get to the playoffs and you actually have to
Speaker 3: writers and you and then then I was told this year,
Speaker 3: well we I said, you don't hit outside anymore? Now,
Speaker 3: Pete Alnso said, listen, I'm going to hit outside because
Speaker 3: I want to know what the background's like, because you know,
Speaker 3: I'm I just got one hundred and fifty five million dollars.
Speaker 2: I don't have the mess ever. Let him go. He's
Speaker 2: the real dude, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not hitting as well with runners and score ambition,
Speaker 3: and he's a strikeout guy. But he plays the game
Speaker 3: every day as hard as he can possibly play, and
Speaker 3: he's my type of player, so to he'll do that.
Speaker 3: But I was told, he said, well, we score more
Speaker 3: runs when we when we don't hit outside, And I go,
Speaker 3: so are we going to factor in who was pitching
Speaker 3: that day?
Speaker 2: You know? You know or you know we don't beat
Speaker 2: left handed starters.
Speaker 3: Well, what's the team e or ra for our guys
Speaker 3: the days you don't beat left handed starters. I don't
Speaker 3: give you the whole picture. So again, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I played with some of the greatest players, Brooks Robinson,
Speaker 3: Frank Robinson, you know, Cal Rippon and Eddie Murray and
Speaker 3: you know, all Hall of famers. He took back batt
Speaker 3: in practice and wolves, you know, and that's what he did.
Speaker 3: And you know, and I tell you now, Baltimore used
Speaker 3: to before global warming, Baltimore used to be hotter.
Speaker 1: Well you'll probably notice Jim Marc is forty years old.
Speaker 1: I believe he's as old school as they come. That's
Speaker 1: what we love about him. Hey, you mentioned Grayson Rodriguez
Speaker 1: being one of your favorite young pitchers. We have certainly
Speaker 1: not seen the best of him in Anaheim this year,
Speaker 1: but it looked like he had had a maybe what
Speaker 1: we hope as a breakthrough game on on Monday. On
Speaker 1: Tuesday night, What did you think of Grayson? How does
Speaker 1: he look to you? Is he starting to look like
Speaker 1: the Grayson Rodriguez of old?
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, you know, he was twenty and eight for
Speaker 2: the Ords.
Speaker 3: I mean, but he got a lot of runs, got
Speaker 3: over six runs a game, and what he needed to
Speaker 3: do when he was healthy, which he looked like he
Speaker 3: was healthy last night. I mean, last night's is a
Speaker 3: hanging slider to Alonzo and a lead off walk that's
Speaker 3: got him in trouble. And that's so if you're going
Speaker 3: to walk the leadoff guy, he better strike some people
Speaker 3: out or whatever. And he did make a good Pete
Speaker 3: you know, Hagen slider, the Pete Alonzo two run single
Speaker 3: and there's it's two nothing, you know, and then he
Speaker 3: pitches seven innings only doesn't go through any more runs.
Speaker 2: He's healthy and he's smart.
Speaker 3: He's a hard worker, but he's got to figure out, Okay,
Speaker 3: I need to be more consistent. So when I have
Speaker 3: a bad game, it's my ear is not six or
Speaker 3: seven months a game. So because once again my point is,
Speaker 3: if Mark's playing, you know, right field for me, I'm
Speaker 3: going to make him.
Speaker 2: Think as the starting pitcher, we have a chance to
Speaker 2: win that night. And how do you do that?
Speaker 3: Stay away from beginnings and when Grayson did pitch well
Speaker 3: for the Oriols when he was healthy the.
Speaker 2: Beginnings, you know, gott in the way.
Speaker 3: So again, talent guy, hopefully of pitch well because you
Speaker 3: know he's a he's a good guy.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's really a good guy.
Speaker 3: And it's the last number one draft choice the Ools,
Speaker 3: or at least high draft choice the Oils I've ever
Speaker 3: actually had, and that was Dan Duquett being the general manager.
Speaker 3: How much better do you think you would have done
Speaker 3: had you had a catcher or with his glove flopping
Speaker 3: all over the place back there, well than you a
Speaker 3: target moving tar Well, Carlos, he actually put the glove
Speaker 3: up yesterday. I mean, here is I know, I know,
Speaker 3: and he held it. Now he held it and I
Speaker 3: tweeted and Ben Ben McDonald's we've been talking about this.
Speaker 3: He does the games and I don't do most of them.
Speaker 3: And I said, you throw it to the glove. I
Speaker 3: mean how do you have the plate sevent eight inches wide,
Speaker 3: you can make it about another two point eight on
Speaker 3: both sides. So what that's almost twenty three inch or
Speaker 3: twenty two inches somewhere. Because all you have to do,
Speaker 3: and we've seen it with the Avs, have the edge
Speaker 3: of the ball on there. So if I want to
Speaker 3: throw the ball out of the middle of the plate,
Speaker 3: I mean, how do I want to pitch Mark Trumbo?
Speaker 3: Not down the middle unless I want to see how
Speaker 3: far the ball went, you know, my neck, So the
Speaker 3: point is down in the way. Well, okay, okay, you know,
Speaker 3: like I said, twenty sixteen to lead the American League
Speaker 3: in home runs with forty seven. There's three hundred and
Speaker 3: ninety hitters now in the big leagues, if you you know,
Speaker 3: thirteen position players, maybe not hitters, but guys that go
Speaker 3: to the bat, and then you have you know, you know,
Speaker 3: three hundred, three hundred and ninety pitchers. How many of
Speaker 3: those three hundred ninety hitters have they said, where is
Speaker 3: the optimum ball to hit hard? How many would say
Speaker 3: lo and away? Mhm, Well you just try and pull
Speaker 3: it over the left field fence. Well there, yeah, they're away?
Speaker 1: There are they are very few Tony Gwinns left in
Speaker 1: this game.
Speaker 3: Jim, well, no, but you know I went to with
Speaker 3: Bobby Gritch and Rock Groo and we were talking about that,
Speaker 3: and Bobby said, no, he played behind. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: Bobby should be in the Hall of Fame. His numbers
Speaker 3: are higher than Ran. His war is over seventy seventy one,
Speaker 3: I think, or something like that. One of the more
Speaker 3: one of my favorite teammates was of his intens and
Speaker 3: he said, well, you used to, you know, kind of
Speaker 3: down away and.
Speaker 2: Then ride the ball.
Speaker 3: We've got a Gritch fan.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought how intess he was, you know, how
Speaker 2: good a player he was.
Speaker 3: And I saw, you know, we're having dinner and I said, yeah,
Speaker 3: down the way and I said, Roddie, I said, how'd
Speaker 3: you hit down away? Well, you know this is a
Speaker 3: guy that one said Betty Fell, I actually hit that
Speaker 3: pitch pretty well.
Speaker 2: But you know what's going.
Speaker 3: To happen the lone away fastball to right ear lefty
Speaker 3: if you do it early in the game and you
Speaker 3: find out that the hitter will cover the outside corner.
Speaker 3: It's an information pitch. It makes you better, you know,
Speaker 3: if the guy won't do it. Why would I want
Speaker 3: I mean, right now, I mean, I throw a guy
Speaker 3: fastball on the way, you know, outside corner of the play,
Speaker 3: and if.
Speaker 2: You took him, I throw another one.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not an audition Broadway.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to show him that I can sing,
Speaker 3: dance the odel and all that stuff. I want to
Speaker 3: see what he does, and I want to see as
Speaker 3: quickly and early in the game because I'm going to
Speaker 3: pitch deep into the game.
Speaker 2: So if he takes it, I throw another one.
Speaker 3: If he takes it, I probably throw another one because
Speaker 3: if he can hit it and he covers the outside corner,
Speaker 3: probably going to be susceptible up and in, maybe not
Speaker 3: hit the change up very well or the you know,
Speaker 3: the breaking ball. So why wouldn't I want to find
Speaker 3: that out? See now, everybody tells you to you know, wow,
Speaker 3: this guy can't hit the ball well.
Speaker 2: When you pitch, it's a very visual thing.
Speaker 3: I mean, Mark, I would assume some guys you see
Speaker 3: the ball better than other guys, regardless of what the
Speaker 3: velocity is. Pitching, Just where's the bat hit? You got
Speaker 3: to watch the badhand. You have to go out and
Speaker 3: watch them take batting practice. You have to sit on
Speaker 3: the days you're not pitching and talk about the game
Speaker 3: and who has good bad speed, and who has a
Speaker 3: slider speed back. All these things we learned. We weren't
Speaker 3: totally now, you know, they say, okay, you need to
Speaker 3: do this and all that. Throw a fastball right by
Speaker 3: and they go, oh, go not a good breaking ball.
Speaker 3: Hit or speak the bat up with a breaking ball,
Speaker 3: and you wonder why you give up more runs than
Speaker 3: you want to. Yeah, you can learn a lot by
Speaker 3: watching the game. That's why you know the iPads and stuff.
Speaker 3: So did a really good job for us young players.
Speaker 3: Well they just frankly booted us out of the video room.
Speaker 3: Maybe just me, but I think Borgos was there too.
Speaker 3: But his point was, what are you going to learn?
Speaker 3: You just have to breaking ball in the dirt? What
Speaker 3: you know? What more do you need to know? If
Speaker 3: you want, if you want, I want to look look
Speaker 3: at you know, a strike that you fouled off, But
Speaker 3: really you don't even know which way is up. So
Speaker 3: get out of there. Bobby Bray. You can go in
Speaker 3: there and you're going to stay on the top step
Speaker 3: and you're going to watch the game. But it was
Speaker 3: invaluable advice a little harsh of the time, but or direct,
Speaker 3: I should say, but I appreciate that. That's the type
Speaker 3: of thing that I'm not going to get off on
Speaker 3: a tangent. But the Angels, you know, I think that
Speaker 3: they're a candidate for, you know, a manager with a
Speaker 3: little firmer hand. I've said it previously, and you've got
Speaker 3: young players sometimes they need guidance and direct guide guidance.
Speaker 3: So the fact that they don't let you talk to
Speaker 3: pictures as much, or maybe it's not as encouraged, is
Speaker 3: tough to hear that. You know, right there that clip
Speaker 3: we can just put it on repeat and send it
Speaker 3: to them. Well, well, yeah, I mean I had a
Speaker 3: friend today, you know, my wife works out at Orange
Speaker 3: Theory and Nords from Bob used to be a vice president.
Speaker 2: He says, have you ever talked to the picture? I
Speaker 2: got the Baltimore.
Speaker 3: In what nineteen sixty five and here we are in
Speaker 3: twenty six and they have never asked me to talk
Speaker 3: to the pictures.
Speaker 2: Now, doesn't mean I don't dumb pictures. You know. We
Speaker 2: had a general manager who went to the Cardinals.
Speaker 3: First thing he did the next bring he said, hey,
Speaker 3: we come up and talked to our you know, minor
Speaker 3: league pictures, and I said, you've got Bob Gibson.
Speaker 2: He said, no, we want to hear another.
Speaker 3: And I'm out there and I you know, And I said, so,
Speaker 3: you know, who are the two best pictures in the
Speaker 3: National League the last ten years?
Speaker 2: Oh? You know, Schilling and Johnson. I said, no, no, the
Speaker 2: last ten years Maddox and Glavin.
Speaker 3: I said, what did they throw about ninety ninety one?
Speaker 3: I said, how many guys throw ninety one? Everybody's hand
Speaker 3: on it. I said, but could you throw a change
Speaker 3: up in any count? Can you pitch the both sides
Speaker 3: of the plate, can you field your position? Can you
Speaker 3: throw the low and away fastball when you need to?
Speaker 3: So that's that's kind of you know, I don't think
Speaker 3: the game has changed. It doesn't mean that guys don't
Speaker 3: hit low and away fast but you kind of know
Speaker 3: where they are. And you know, if you have a
Speaker 3: baseball field, it's this big, and I mean, you could
Speaker 3: hit the ball anywhere out of the ballpark. But if
Speaker 3: you have a guy's you know, that's you take the field.
Speaker 3: And if I have left hand, hit her up and
Speaker 3: I know I'm gonna throw the ball along the way.
Speaker 2: I can take that field and make it that much smaller.
Speaker 3: I canise, I can now I can have the same
Speaker 3: amount of a venders in a smaller field. Now, doesn't
Speaker 3: that make sense? But you know now, I mean I
Speaker 3: last night, you're you're catcher. You just you just got him.
Speaker 3: He hits a little roller in the right field. More baller, Yeah,
Speaker 3: but whatever, But I mean, no, you're right, Yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean the hardest thing. And as a hitter has got
Speaker 3: granky Dan Haren, all these guys stealing strike one down
Speaker 3: in a way very frustrating. You're behind in the count
Speaker 3: now already. And I planned to hit it, and I was,
Speaker 3: you know, you go up there with it. I'm going
Speaker 3: to be aggressive and it's just not a pitch. You
Speaker 3: can do anything with it. So the brain says nope,
Speaker 3: and then oh one again and again, you know, against
Speaker 3: these good guys. So I appreciate that. I think Mike's
Speaker 3: gott got a final question for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to ask you this, Jim. Speaking of
Speaker 1: great pictures, you and Tom sever were two of the
Speaker 1: greatest of your generation and my generation. I grew up
Speaker 1: in Connecticut in the sixties and seventies seventies. Tom sever
Speaker 1: was my favorite player. But you guys did not face
Speaker 1: each other in the sixty nine World Series. You did
Speaker 1: start opposite of each other in the nineteen seventy All
Speaker 1: Star Games Cincinnati. But as far as I can tell
Speaker 1: a research of mine this morning, you square it off
Speaker 1: only once in the regular season, on April twenty third,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, when you were in your last season
Speaker 1: with the Ools and Sever was at the end of
Speaker 1: his career with the Chicago White Sox. What if anything,
Speaker 1: do you remember from that game in Kamiski Park, And
Speaker 1: did you guys develop a relationship through all those All
Speaker 1: Star Games or whether it's a mutual admiration or respect
Speaker 1: over the years.
Speaker 3: Well, Tom Siver, yeah, buddy, you know struck out eight
Speaker 3: thousand people one three hundred and eleven games, my first
Speaker 3: All Star game. You know, Willie Mays, let Off Rose
Speaker 3: hit second, bench hit you know aeron fourth. I think
Speaker 3: Dick Allen has just got in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 3: He hit seventh or something like.
Speaker 2: That was the only headache had when I looked at
Speaker 2: that lineup.
Speaker 3: But I pitched against Tom and Dave McNally, who won
Speaker 3: twenty games for US four times he would eventually be pitching.
Speaker 2: When when they would lose an extra.
Speaker 3: Innings, Peter Rose playing third base, and I dropped a
Speaker 3: bunt down and I took he threw me out and
Speaker 3: I come back and Dave McNally says, you know, you
Speaker 3: get a little bit of power. Why didn't you try
Speaker 3: to hit a home run off with Tom Seaver? And
Speaker 3: I said, what are you crazy? What do you have
Speaker 3: to do is let's see April. I don't remember the date,
Speaker 3: but in nineteen seventy he struck out nineteen yea. Not
Speaker 3: only did he strike out in nineteen he struck out
Speaker 3: the last ten batters of the game. So mark point,
Speaker 3: you think he threw more than ninety five pitches that day.
Speaker 2: I mean he could. You know, he was terrific.
Speaker 3: And to your point, to your point of course, we
Speaker 3: used you know, we were both on the Baseball Assistant
Speaker 3: Team board, so I got to see him. They have
Speaker 3: a big dinner, used to have a big dinner up
Speaker 3: in January. You know, we're both in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 3: I have a great picture of us when of the
Speaker 3: Little League World Series. You know, on Friday night after
Speaker 3: we both retired and the only cover I ever made
Speaker 3: of Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 2: I'm on one side.
Speaker 3: And Thomas on the other, which is you know, awesome. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean I get people. In fact, people sustend it
Speaker 3: to me. And I'm going since Tom passed away, it's
Speaker 3: gonna be a tough autograph of only I autographs. I
Speaker 3: probably should come up with a Thomas Ever autographed. Make it,
Speaker 3: you know, less valuable or whatever. But you know, one
Speaker 3: of the great pictures of all time, and and terrific guy,
Speaker 3: and you know, tragically you know, Alzheimer's or whatever.
Speaker 2: And I loved his wine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, he had a great vineyard up in
Speaker 3: the Napa Valley and I think g TS named after
Speaker 3: his dad. So you know again, I mean, if you're
Speaker 3: a Mets fan, I wish you know it's your point.
Speaker 3: I wish I had actually pitched against him in the
Speaker 3: sixty nine. Well, he gave up a couple of runs.
Speaker 3: I pitched against Gary Gentry in Game three and we
Speaker 3: got shut out. So but he was he was Tom terrific.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's kind of some what a what a
Speaker 3: great nickname.
Speaker 1: If memory serves at A young right hander named Nolan
Speaker 1: Ryan finished that Gentry game.
Speaker 2: It could have.
Speaker 3: All I know is it was one of our best
Speaker 3: breaking ball hitters and Nolan and people forget that, you know,
Speaker 3: it's relief pitcher for the Mets. And he threw him
Speaker 3: a curveball and Paul's rear end was in our dugout one,
Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it's not that jacked up, you know, radar,
Speaker 3: there we go. Christ was the last out. He threw
Speaker 3: him a two two change up for.
Speaker 2: The final out of the no hitter in Anaheim. And
Speaker 2: he pitched games and.
Speaker 3: I'm going, how do you see the ball? I mean,
Speaker 3: you know he's from you know, legitimate one hundred hundred
Speaker 3: and one, and yeah, I mean he was knowing, but
Speaker 3: he was a little bit wild. He walked me on
Speaker 3: a three two curveball throwing a hundred. I'm not sure
Speaker 3: that was a very prudent quite all right, runt against him?
Speaker 2: Pardon, do you ever bud against.
Speaker 3: Nolan or are you out of you know that? Yeah,
Speaker 3: guys that try to bunt, he would he would throw
Speaker 3: the ball back in. You know, he'd walk about halfway
Speaker 3: maybe even a little bit closer to home plate, get
Speaker 3: the ball and rub it up like this and just
Speaker 3: go try that again. You know, no, no, no, no
Speaker 3: no no, I just I just figured if you wanted
Speaker 3: to walk me for me too, I'll go down there.
Speaker 3: At least he didn't hit me, you know. That was
Speaker 3: what the DH was, what came in in seventy seventy three.
Speaker 3: I don't think I was ever hit by a pitch,
Speaker 3: you know, from sixty five to seventy two.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was fortunate.
Speaker 3: I didn't hit that many either, only hit thirty eight.
Speaker 1: All right, hey, we are going to end the show
Speaker 1: with that Jim Palmer Hall of Famer Baltimoreal's TV Analysts.
Speaker 1: We really appreciate your time and input. Mark Tremble, thanks
Speaker 1: as always. Hey, thanks for listening, thanks for tuning in,
Speaker 1: and please like them, subscribe and we'll see you next
Speaker 1: time on Halo Territory