WEBVTT - STBYM Listener Mail: The Magical Mystery Cult 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.040 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:12.880 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind Listener Mail. 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:14.320 This is Robert Lamb. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.319 And I am Joe McCormick and today as Rob I 0:00:17.320 --> 0:00:20.759 think just said, we are bringing you listener mail. Of course, 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:22.920 at the end of every episode we give out our 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.760 email address for listeners like you to get in touch. 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:29.320 That address is contact at stuff to Blow your Mind 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:32.599 dot com. It's been a little bit since the last one, 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.199 so we are doing some catch up on series that 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.480 have been a few weeks back at this point. But yeah, 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:40.920 please keep the email coming. We do love all the 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:43.840 messages we get. We're not able to respond to everything 0:00:44.680 --> 0:00:47.400 that comes into the inbox on the show itself, but 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:50.520 rest assured we do read all of it. We appreciate 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.680 all that we get. And again that is contact at 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.240 stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Get in touch 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.680 anytime to let us know your thoughts about episodes we've 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:01.640 done on the show, or just to suggest something for 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:03.880 us to cover, or even just to share something interesting, 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:06.800 something you think that would tickle our fancy. 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:08.880 Yeah, you never know. Sometimes it can we can spin 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:12.120 it off into an episode and some folks also choose 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:14.880 to take part in the Discord Server for Stuff to 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:17.479 Blow your Mind and Weird House Cinema. If you would 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.440 like to join that discord Server, we'll just shoot us 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:23.399 an email at the aforementioned address and we'll shoot you 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:24.280 the link to join. 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:26.400 All right, well, I think we should kick things off 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.280 with some responses to the series we did called The Mysteries. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:35.040 This was a collection of episodes about the mystery religions 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:38.720 or the mystery cults of the ancient Greco Roman world. 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:40.600 Let's see, Rob, Do you mind if I start with 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:42.000 this message from Hannah. 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:42.640 Yeah. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.400 This message is responding to a part of the series 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:48.520 where we were talking about the general context of ancient 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.040 Greek and Roman polytheism, like how the cults of those 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:55.240 gods were quite a bit different from what a person 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.160 today might expect, especially if that person grew up in 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.960 culture primarily influenced by one of the big monotheisms. Some 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:06.080 of those differences were that within these ancient Greco Roman polytheisms, 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.799 there was generally no expectation of exclusivity in a person's 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.880 relationship with any one god. The main public cults were 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.840 not really focused on things like faith and belief, but 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:22.639 instead on rituals and sacrifices, ritual sacrifices and festivals. You know, 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.200 it's a party time as well, so you know, people 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:28.919 would perform rituals and sacrifices in exchange for the expectation 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:32.880 of blessings from the god in question. Another thing is 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.240 just how many gods there were. There were lots and 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.440 lots of them who could each provide blessings related to 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.800 different parts of human life, things like economic situations, health 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:48.160 and reproduction, specific areas of geography and geographical features. And 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:51.080 in this discussion, Rob brought up this analogy comparing the 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:55.560 religious environment to a cheesecake factory menu except which I 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.000 thought was a good one, except with the variation that, 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.480 unlike the cheesecake fact which is centrally organized, it's a chain. 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:05.720 The public cults of the ancient Greek and Roman world 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.440 were not centrally organized. There wasn't really like a pope 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.400 of Greco Roman religion to make everybody do the same thing. Instead, 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.680 you had lots of local cult control and even tons 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.680 of local gods and local variations on the worship of 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.480 widespread gods. And so listener Hannah gets in touch to 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:32.600 offer a contribution to this analogy, Hannah says, with subject 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:36.600 line A variety platter of deities. Hi, again, I had 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.080 to pause the Mystery Cult episode just to send you this. 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:44.280 The perfect metaphor for ancient polytheism isn't a cheesecake factory menu. 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:49.280 It's a local diner menu. Now that's the kind of 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.040 distinction I appreciate it. Let's hear Hannah's case here. Hannah says, 0:03:53.080 --> 0:03:55.480 you know how some of them can be improbably long 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.280 because they keep adding on odds and ends or recombinations 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:01.880 of the same and green vidience. Plus, you have some 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:05.920 standard diner fair you'd expect to see almost anywhere, and 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:10.720 then in parentheses burger slash sun God maybe, plus local 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:15.520 stuff parentheses grits in the South scrapple and Pennsylvania hyperlocal 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:20.120 river God perhaps, and whatever stuff from the culture of 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:24.279 the diner owners who maybe came from elsewhere. You've probably 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:27.400 been to a Greek diner or an Italian flavored diner. 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.040 Maybe these are the deities brought to a region by migration, 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:35.039 trade or conquest. Anyway, thank you as always for sharing 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:37.640 the joy and light of learning and exploring ideas. Y'all 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.120 are life savers and now I really want to milkshake. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:45.880 Cheers Hannah. Well, Hannah, bravo. I thoroughly approve of this analogy. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:46.560 I think it's great. 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.920 Yes, our original analogy was imperfect, as sometimes our real 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.760 time analogies tend to be. This is a perfection of 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:57.000 the analogy, so greatly appreciate it. 0:04:57.680 --> 0:04:59.880 All right, let's see Rob, you want to do this next? 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:04.040 And from Jamie. Yeah, let's see a bit of context. 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.039 This one brings up a couple things in the episode. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.320 One is the comparisons between ancient Greco Roman mystery cults 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:14.159 and Christianity. It's long been a question in historical and 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.400 religious scholarship to what extent Christianity should or should not 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.200 be thought of as one of the mystery cults or 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:22.000 influenced by one of the mystery cults. And then the 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.520 other thing is just about our use of the word 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:27.600 cult in the context of ancient Greek and Roman religion, 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.520 where it has none of the negative connotations as today. 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:40.160 All right, then here is the email from Jamie. Dear 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.800 Robert and Joe. I'm enjoying the pod as always, and 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.480 especially the recent episode on the mystery cults of the 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.400 ancient world. I would have liked to hear even more, 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.159 not just about how Christianity may have been a kind 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.480 of mystery cult to begin with, but about how this 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.160 tradition has continued even to this day, at least in Catholicism. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.520 Mysteries such as the Trinity, for example, are our essentral 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.159 part of faith, and one is encouraged to contemplate the 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:08.120 mysteries such as the Resurrection and Denunciation while praying the Rosary. 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.239 On another cult point, I liked how you pointed out 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.440 the call of Cthulhu version of the cultist as a 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.919 hooded fiend. But if you are interested in reading a 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:21.360 story that does an excellent job, in my opinion, presenting 0:06:21.520 --> 0:06:24.919 Cthulhu worship as if it were a mystery cult in 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.039 the ancient sense, I recommend copying Squid by Michael Shae. 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:31.320 Keep up the good work, Jane. 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.160 Oh thanks, Jamie. Well maybe we should go in reverse 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:38.840 order here. I've only read one story ever by Michael, 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:43.200 she called The Autopsy. But that story was fantastic, so 0:06:43.240 --> 0:06:46.440 I'm interested to read more. Michael Shay's a horror, horror 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:47.279 and fantasy writer. 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:52.840 Yeah, horror, fantasy, some science fiction thrown in there as well. 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:57.120 He lived nineteen forty six through twenty fourteen. One of 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:00.760 my favorite weird fiction authors. I actually got to exchange 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:04.440 a couple of like fan emails with him once. Yeah, 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:09.080 the highlight of my fan emailing career. But his Niffeline 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.600 fantasy tales are absolutely amazing, well worth seeking out. He 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.720 also wrote a number of great weird fiction tales, including 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:20.680 several that take place in the Cthulhu mythos. Coughing Squid 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:22.520 is a good one. I haven't read that one in years, though, 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.080 so the mystery cult aspects of it have kind of 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.880 faded for my recollection. But this one is collected in 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:32.880 a collection that I have demiurge, the Complete Cthulhu Mythos Tales. 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.480 That one also includes fat Face, which is one of 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:40.200 his better known stories. And yeah, the Autopsy, as you mentioned, Yeah, 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:43.400 that is another really well known Shay story. That one 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.320 was adapted into an episode of Germeal de Toro's Cabinet 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.240 of Curiosity, that one directed by David Pryor. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.720 Now I wonder in what sense Jamie means Coping Squid 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.040 is about Cuthulhu worship as an actual mystery cult in 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.400 the historical sense. Does that mean that it relies on 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.640 secret knowledge. I mean, I guess the grit knowledge is 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.680 sort of already there in the original story. Maybe that 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.400 it's more about the experience of the initiate like that, Yeah, 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:07.160 the core part. 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:10.360 I think. So there are there are two different Michael 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.680 she myth those stories that are kind of combined in 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.400 my memory, and I really need to revisit them to 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:18.920 tease them apart. But I have a vague recollection of 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.160 a story that is very much from the the cultest 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.480 or would be cultest point of view, you know, beginning 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:29.760 to have this initiation into the sacred rights of Cuthula. 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:32.960 That's actually a great idea for a story, given the 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:36.280 like historical knowledge we have now about what the initiation 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.080 process was. Probably, like I'm thinking specifically of the Eleusinian mysteries, 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.880 where there's this idea that you know, everyone would have 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.520 been told that it's a you know, it's a really 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.160 powerful experience, it'll change your life, it'll let you go 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:51.000 without a burden into the into the underworld at the 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:52.839 time of death. And so you've heard all this good 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.560 stuff about it, but people can't tell you what it is. Yeah, 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:57.679 and so like what if you get there and the 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.800 truth of what the experience is is quite horrifying. But 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:02.960 then for some reason you have to keep go telling 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.120 people like, yeah, it's great, you got to go, and yeah. 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.760 I really need to read these stories again, because again, 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.160 Michael Shay is terrific. He is one of those authors 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.920 that I will I keep coming back to and I'll 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.440 just figure out is well, what's a story of his 0:09:16.559 --> 0:09:20.160 that I'm very fond of, but I've also forgotten most 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.120 off and then it's time to dive back in. 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.000 Now coming back to the first half of Jamie's email 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.839 about the comparisons between Christianity and mystery cults, for one thing, 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:34.400 extending into the comparisons of modern Christianity to mystery cults. 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.640 There's actually a significant part of the book. One of 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.640 the main sources we talked about in that series, the 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.080 book by Hugh Boden Mystery Cults in the Ancient World. 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.760 But yeah, so Boden toward the end of the book 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.760 has a long section in which you makes some pretty 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.160 strong comparisons between what we know about the experience of 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:57.079 being in an ancient mystery cult, and not so much 0:09:57.120 --> 0:10:03.040 with Catholicism but with certain Pentecostal forms of Christianity. Specifically 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.719 like the ecstatic snake handling cults of Appalachia. But as 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.080 to the broader question of Christianity and mystery cults, it 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:14.040 is interesting, like there have long been these questions, like 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:18.160 to what extent does the Christian practice of baptism constitute 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:23.000 and initiation ritual is the Eucharist, like the ritual taking 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.440 of bread and wine as the body and blood of Christ? 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:30.320 Is that a mystery practice? Also questions about whether Christianity 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.280 began as something more like the other mystery religions or 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.880 was influenced by them and then maybe drifted away to 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.640 become a more doctrinal cult. But I think a lot 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:46.280 of scholars now kind of disagree with that interpretive lens 0:10:46.400 --> 0:10:51.600 because specifically the idea that Christianity was strongly influenced by 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.120 the mystery cults or began as a mystery cult. And 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.160 I think one of the main reasons a lot of 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:59.520 historians have turned against that is that that kind of 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:04.439 under the particular features of Judaism as a foundational influence 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.000 on Christianity. And it's fair to point out that there 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.200 is a lot we don't know about the early years 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.199 of Christianity and its origins, but of course, that cuts 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:16.920 both ways against all interpretations, but based on what we 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.880 do know, I think the best interpretation of the origin 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:24.000 of Christianity is that it began as an apocalyptic movement 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:27.560 within Judaism, which was focused on the idea that the 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:32.199 Jewish God would soon come down to destroy wickedness, invert 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:36.240 existing power relationships like overthrow Roman control and so forth, 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.600 and establish a good, just kingdom on earth, sort of 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:44.040 right all wrongs. And then as early Christians tried to 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.520 make sense of the death and then their belief in 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:51.000 the resurrection of their leader, Jesus of Nazareth. And then 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.600 also as the story of Jesus began to spread among 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:57.600 Greek and Roman polytheists rather than only among Jews, it 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.839 morphed into a religion of individual salvation, being not about 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.520 the fact that God would soon come to earth and 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:07.440 set things right, but about the idea that you need 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.120 to set yourself right with God by accepting the saving 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.520 sacrifice of Christ. But again, there's a lot we don't 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:17.120 know about the early years of Christianity with great confidence, 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.480 so it's hard to be too sure about any particular 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.959 story of how it evolved. However, there is an interesting 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.280 vocabulary fact that I don't think we talked about in 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:28.520 the episode Rob let me know if we did get 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.680 into this, and I'm forgetting. But it's the idea of 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:36.320 the early Christian use of the Greek word mysterion, which 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:39.920 is often used to refer to the mystery the initiation rights, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.800 the secret initiation rights of cults, like the Elusinian mysteries. 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.079 The word mysterion does appear in early Christian texts such 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.760 as the Gospels and in some of the epistles in 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:55.640 the New Testament, where it seems in this context it's 0:12:55.760 --> 0:13:00.280 used not to refer to initiation rights. Instead, mysterion here 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:05.400 is always used to refer to secret knowledge, generally hidden 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:09.680 knowledge that has been revealed in secret to a privileged group. 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.160 So one example is like when Jesus is telling the 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.760 parable of the Sower in the Gospel of Mark. Apparently 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.079 in the Greek there is invocation of the word mysterion there, 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:25.199 referring to the secret interpretation of the parable that Jesus 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.640 gives only to his inner circle of disciples, so that 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:32.000 the masses only sort of hear the parable and puzzle 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:33.959 what to make of it. But then there is a 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.120 secret knowledge, a sort of secret reading of the parable 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.640 that is given to his inner circle. So that's how 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.840 the word mysterion is used in early Christian writings from 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.920 the first and second centuries CE, but then a few 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.160 centuries later, I think it's by like the fourth century CE. 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:55.760 Boden says, this is happening. The word mysterion is now 0:13:55.800 --> 0:14:00.760 just commonly used to refer to Christian ritual like the 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:06.480 Eucharist or baptism, and there has been scholarly debate about why, 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.280 like why is the word mysterion used here. Some think 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.280 that it's like the influence of Greek and Roman polytheism. Basically, 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.400 it's like, you know, taking a word from one religious 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.960 context and applying it to the new dominant religion where 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:23.560 it once referred to these rituals. But Boden actually makes 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:27.480 an argument that this application of the word mystery on 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:32.360 to something like the Eucharist is it reflects, in his view, 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:37.080 an understanding that the Christians had at the time that 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:41.800 the rituals were forms of secret knowledge. So it's more 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.640 in keeping with the way the word is used in 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.920 the early Christian texts, like forms of secret knowledge that 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.200 are now revealed, So you know, the secret of baptism 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.320 and the Eucharist that was previously known only to God 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:57.880 and perhaps to some of the prophets, but now these 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.920 rituals are known to all Christians, have been revealed by Jesus. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.000 It is a secret that has been that you have 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.840 been brought in on. And of course, Uh, there is 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:12.280 the long running question of comparisons between baptism and UH 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:16.840 and various forms of cultic initiation, including initiation to the 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:21.000 mystery cults. Uh. This could well be a legitimate sort 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:25.000 of common growth or or you know, a legitimate comparison here. 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.680 But of course it's worth pointing out that baptism predates Christianity, 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.640 and that's not even a controversial fact even among Christians. 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.440 Like you know, Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.479 It's it was a pre existing practice, right right. 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.920 I can I can see that, basing it for in 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:46.120 part just on my own experience, like baptism as a child. Uh, 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.640 it's uh, you know, it's it's there are mysteries involved, 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.560 it's it's it's kind of frightful, like you're you have 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.720 to go in the back of the church and go 0:15:54.760 --> 0:15:56.880 through like secret chambers. They're not really secret, but they 0:15:56.880 --> 0:16:00.320 felt kind of secret. You have to like wear awn 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.720 over your swimsuit and then go into a like a 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.960 walk in bathtub with a master it's you know, and 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:10.560 then you're dunked. It was. It was a weird, memorable experience. 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.840 Yeah, though, as you know, we talked about, I think 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.000 a little bit in the episode, the idea that there 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.320 may have been some ways rituals were done earlier in 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.600 Christianity that tended to be more in the imagistic religious 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.080 fashion that became more doctrinal as. 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:25.520 Time went on. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.640 That might not be always true in every case, but 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.280 in some certain cases it is. And I think baptism 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:34.640 might be a good point there, because it could well 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.000 be that baptism was something that was initially meant as 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.240 a much more overwhelming, powerful emotional experience, and then it 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.360 transitioned into something that people did with infants where you're 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:47.960 not even really going to have an experiential memory of it. 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:52.320 So yeah, there's less emphasis on the overwhelming emotional experience 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.080 and encounter with the power of God. 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:56.920 Yeah. Yeah, And of course walk in bathtubs came later 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:57.600 as well. 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.320 Right, Yes, but as your story points out, of course, 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.240 I mean even later Christians and modern Christians still do 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.080 adult baptism, not just infant baptism. You know, it's just, 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.200 you know, there there are different theological points of view 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:09.520 on that. 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:11.919 Clearly we could come back at some later date and 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.560 do an entire episode on baptism and baptism related rites. 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.000 Oh yeah, absolutely, all right, I'm gonna read the next 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:21.320 one since, uh, since you had a long response to 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.159 that last one, give you, We'll give you a break. 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:25.920 This one's This one comes to us from Josh, also 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.760 a response to the Mystery Cults, specifically to part three. Uh. 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:31.880 I don't remember which part three really was, but I'm 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:39.000 sure the email will get into it, so Josh says, Hi, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.000 Joe Robert at all. Listening to the Mysteries Part three, 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.439 one of you mentioned eating in the Spirit Realm in 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:49.080 connection with Cora and Hades. I made an immediate connection 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:51.919 to one of my favorite films, Spirited Away, which seems 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.240 to have the opposite physics. To Heroes parents were turned 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.800 into pigs, but they had eaten the food for the spirits, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.320 and thus it was a punished whereas to hero herself 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.560 had to eat from the Spirit realm food in order 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:08.000 to avoid fading. Out of existence as far as the 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.600 mysteries themselves are concerned. The totality of the descriptions led 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.399 me to wonder if they were what would now be 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.480 considered a magic show. Obviously, if viewers did partake in 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.359 an hallucinogenic substance, it would certainly have heightened the experience. 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:26.600 If the rights were magic tricks, you wouldn't want outsiders 0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:30.120 copying them because of competition, but also a poor reenactment 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.000 would possibly ruin the magic by exposing the trick. 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:37.280 I think that's a good point, and I don't. Yeah, 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.800 a lot clearly a lot of theatricality was involved could 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.320 well extend to like sleight of hand or other types 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:43.760 of tricks. 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:45.760 Yeah, yeah, I mean we got into this a little 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.480 bit with Glicon too. Like the criticism of glic On 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.240 the Serpent God was that it was a like an 0:18:53.280 --> 0:18:56.000 obvious puppet, and you know, they might have had an 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.000 ax to grind, as we discussed, but we might read 0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:01.600 into that that like, yeah, whatever your tricks are, they 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:05.600 need to be convincing. But then again, are your tricks 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:09.360 going to be convincing to someone who doesn't like, willingly 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.280 want to believe and be you know, wowed. I can 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.080 imagine some folks just coming into the mystery cults and like, 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:17.800 do you not want to be converted? Do you not 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:21.280 want to have a revelation about the nature of the universe? 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:23.719 You just want to point at things and accuse them 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:24.879 of being puppets? You know. 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.720 I still think we never got an answer on the 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:29.960 question I had about like what was the spirit of 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.040 the criticism of the puppet, Like, was it a problem 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:35.800 that it's a puppet? Because in the religious context here 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.600 you've got cult statues for most cults, so it's not 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.159 like it's a problem to have a physical representation of 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.920 the God that's not literally the God's body. So what's 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.600 the Was it an issue of taste? Did they not 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.560 like that the puppet was animated? I don't know, Like, 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:53.960 I think we never quite got to the bottom of like, 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:56.600 what was it about the fact that it's a puppet 0:19:57.040 --> 0:19:58.440 that is so bad? 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.960 Yeah? I mean, there are lots of bits in churches 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:04.920 Protestant churches today and have been for decades. Christian puppetry 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:07.360 the whole realm unto itself. 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:09.760 But then you had the other side where you had 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.199 like the Christian writers just trying to spoil it for people, yeah, saying, like, 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.600 what really happens in the Secret Temple is that they 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:17.680 have sex in there. 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:21.879 All right. Well, Josh continues here and says in terms 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.479 of the idea that it may just be copulation or 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.440 some other such mondanity. If they had managed to make 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:31.800 a non lethal hallucinogen, and if that was not available 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.040 to the masses, anything they showed the initiates would have 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.560 been impressive. Maybe it was just the first black light 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:43.760 art accompanied by Rosius Floyd's Dark Side of Luna's That's cute. Nice. 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:47.360 As for Christmas, in the Netherlands, we have center Class, 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:51.600 which is the Saint's birthday, not Jesus's. Families do a 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.320 sort of secret Sannah where they give gifts which are 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:57.320 accompanied by a poem written by the giver about the 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.159 receiver from the point of view of the Saint. So, 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.280 even while believing in the authenticity of the living Saint, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.320 children still pretend to be him and use their knowledge 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.800 of the recipient to further the illusion of the saints' omniscience. 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:13.560 They are simultaneously on both sides of the farce. 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:14.760 That's interesting. 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.720 I didn't know that. I like that, I like I 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:18.600 say I think I talked a little bit about Santa 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:20.960 Claus and these episodes as well, and I feel my 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.399 own take is like, that's the comfortable space to be 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.959 in with some sort of a right like this, you know, 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:31.439 to acknowledge the illusion but also embrace the illusion and 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.040 have that middle space for a kind of like the 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:38.800 mythic Yeah. Anyway, Josh says, thanks for the intellectual stimulation. 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:43.440 Cheers Josh. By the way, speaking of gods and goddesses 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:48.040 and cults and mystery cults and so forth, I want 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.399 to give a quick shout out to a product that 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.720 I've really been enjoying recently. This is not a sponsor. 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.320 This is just something I like that it looks like 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.520 like not enough people have heard about. It only came 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:03.480 out a few months back. It's called Deifi, a mythical 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:08.480 solo role playing game by Alison de' antonio, and it's 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.439 really good. Like it is essentially, it's a game you 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.800