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Speaker 1: Hey, what's up, everybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and iHeart podcast

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Speaker 2: and unbothered network production.

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Speaker 1: Time to get spolitical?

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Speaker 2: What if I told you that before the NCAA really

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Speaker 2: became the NCAA as most of us have known it,

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Speaker 2: college athletes actually were paid. The oldest intercollegiate sports event

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Speaker 2: was literally paid for play. On August third, eighteen fifty two,

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Speaker 2: Harvard and Yale competed in a two mile rowing race

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Speaker 2: on Lake Winnipesaukee. According to Harvard's website, Harvard won the

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Speaker 2: race by four lengths and their prize was a pair

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Speaker 2: of black walnut wars. But that wasn't the only prize

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Speaker 2: for competing in the event. What Harvard doesn't mention on

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Speaker 2: his website when it explains the history of the story

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Speaker 2: to Harvard Yale rivalry is that all the rowers received

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Speaker 2: lavish gifts and unlimited alcohol just to participate, because that

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Speaker 2: was how the event, sponsored.

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Speaker 1: Montreal Railroad, bribed them into competing.

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Speaker 2: Now, the story was shared by Andrew Zimbolists in his

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Speaker 2: book Unpaid Professionals, Commercialism and Conflict, and Big Time College Sports.

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Speaker 2: But man, does that sound like a familiar blueprint The

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Speaker 2: obsession with college sports is centuries old. Despite their reputation

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Speaker 2: as being elite institutions that are above the fray, the

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Speaker 2: Ivy League schools indulged in a lot of the early

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Speaker 2: college sports capitalist fuckery, setting the tone for what would

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Speaker 2: become the blueprint for the hypocrisy corruption and create a

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Speaker 2: path for the NCAA to become one of the most

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Speaker 2: powerful organizations in sports. The early days of college football

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Speaker 2: was a banana republic. When football began to gain popularity

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Speaker 2: in the late eighteen hundreds, Yale created and one hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars slush fund just to support his football program.

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Speaker 2: Back then, at schools like Yale, Brown, Harvard, and Princeton

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Speaker 2: pay ringers and use graduate students on their football teams

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Speaker 2: because they wanted to win so badly. In Zimbalist's book,

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Speaker 2: he tells the story of how Yale got tackled James

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Speaker 2: Hogan to commit by offering him free tuition, his own

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Speaker 2: suite at one of the dorms, a trip to Cuba,

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Speaker 2: and a job as a cigarette agent for the American

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Speaker 2: tobacco company pre Market Baby. So what happened to all

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Speaker 2: this natural capitalism entered President Theodore Roosevelt, the country's twenty

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Speaker 2: sixth president, A Harvard graduate and a very big football fan.

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Speaker 2: As much as President Roosevelt loved football, he couldn't ignore

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Speaker 2: the obvious football had become extremely dangerous. A lot of people,

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Speaker 2: in fact, actually wanted football to be banned, and understandably so.

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Speaker 2: From eighteen ninety to nineteen oh five, three hundred and

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Speaker 2: thirty college football players died. Many were killed during the game,

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Speaker 2: some died after suffering catastrophic injuries, and others who played

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Speaker 2: suffered disfigurement, were crippled or dealt with other gruesome injuries.

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Speaker 2: Sick of the shit, Roosevelt invited the head coaches and

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Speaker 2: representatives from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton to the White House,

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Speaker 2: since they were the most powerful figures in football. Now,

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Speaker 2: not only did Roosevelt want to save the game he loved,

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Speaker 2: he also wanted to protect his son, who had begun

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Speaker 2: playing football at Harvard and already had his no broken.

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Speaker 2: He wanted him to be safe. President Roosevelt issued a

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Speaker 2: threat to the powerbrokers either clean up the sport or

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Speaker 2: he would banish it permanently.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: Soon after the gathering at the White House, the NCUBA

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Speaker 2: was formed. On the NCAA's website, it says the nc

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Speaker 2: DOUBLEA was founded in nineteen o six to quote regulate

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Speaker 2: the rules of college sport and protect young athletes. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure it had nothing to do with the fact that

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Speaker 2: Princeton and Yale were generating twenty five thousand dollars in

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Speaker 2: revenue from their football games, an absurd figure back in

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Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds. But the popular historical narrative always

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Speaker 2: has been that the NCUBA wasn't created to continue to

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Speaker 2: generate money, when history.

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Speaker 1: Shows us that's exactly why it was created.

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Speaker 2: While other sports began to form under the ncuba's umbrella,

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Speaker 2: it was clear from the beginning that college football would

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Speaker 2: be a major cash cow. The problem was that the

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Speaker 2: American public had mixed feelings about the role of football

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Speaker 2: or sports in general on college campuses. Some people thought

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Speaker 2: the strong presence of athletics undermined the true purpose of education.

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Speaker 2: Professors hated that some college football coaches were being paid

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Speaker 2: more than them and in some cases considered more critical

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Speaker 2: to the university's success. Meanwhile, as the NCAA was trying

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Speaker 2: to change public perception, the players were still getting paid

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Speaker 2: scholarships wouldn't exist until the nineteen fifties. But in its infancy,

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Speaker 2: the NCAA didn't have any real authority or power. Literally,

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Speaker 2: none of the member schools listened to them or their

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Speaker 2: made up rules. In nineteen twenty nine, the Carnegie Foundation

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Speaker 2: issued a report that revealed of the one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twelve schools they surveyed, eighty one of them had open

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Speaker 2: pay roles for players, and many of their boosters were

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Speaker 2: paying athletes for jobs they never had to show up.

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Speaker 2: For this current alleged wild wild West period involving nil

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Speaker 2: and the transfer portal, it ain't new. In fact, let

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Speaker 2: me tell you one of my favorite stories from that era,

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Speaker 2: which involves the University of Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 1: Now most people.

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Speaker 2: Don't know this, but between nineteen fifteen and nineteen thirty seven,

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Speaker 2: Pittsburgh was one of the most dominant college football programs

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Speaker 2: of that era. During that span, the Panthers won eight

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Speaker 2: national championships. In nineteen thirty seven, they were the defending

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Speaker 2: national champions and they appeared headed for a repeat. But

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Speaker 2: the player said, hold up, we're doing all the heavy lifting.

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Speaker 2: They got us working janitorial jobs for forty eight dollars

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Speaker 2: a month. They told the administration, ain't nobody come to

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Speaker 2: see u otis. They issued a set of demands before

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Speaker 2: they were supposed to play in the Rose Bowl for

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Speaker 2: a national championship. The players demanded three things to play

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Speaker 2: in the Rose Bowl. They wanted each player to get

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Speaker 2: paid between one hundred and two hundred dollars. They wanted

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Speaker 2: all sixty members of the team to travel to the

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Speaker 2: Rose Bowl. And they wanted a two week vacation because

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Speaker 2: playing in the Rose Bowl meant they had to work

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Speaker 2: on Christmas.

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Speaker 1: Aha, work smarter, not harder.

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Speaker 2: As for how Pittsburgh's administration responded, oh, they gave them

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Speaker 2: the quickest of hell Knawle's. The player said, well, looks

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Speaker 2: like Christmas break is going to start early for us.

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Speaker 2: They voted sixteen to fifteen not to play. You would

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Speaker 2: think a lesson would have been learned here. As a

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Speaker 2: result of their stubbornness, Pittsburgh forfeited a ten thousand dollars prize.

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Speaker 2: They also wouldn't go back to a bowl game for

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Speaker 2: almost twenty years. And you know how many national championships

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Speaker 2: if they've won since the players opted not to play

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Speaker 2: in that Rose Bowl one and that was in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy six.

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Speaker 1: Damn shame what they did to that dog.

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Speaker 2: The NCAA was so embarrassed by Pittsburgh's refusal to play

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Speaker 2: that they instituted something called the Sanity Code, which isn't

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Speaker 2: very catchy. The Code was supposed to stop the rampant

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Speaker 2: abuse and scandals that were prevalent in college sports at

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Speaker 2: the time. The Code stated that athletes could only receive

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Speaker 2: financial assistance if they were in need, they had to

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Speaker 2: meet certain academic requirements, and they could not receive scholarships. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you violated the rules, you would be expelled from competition.

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Speaker 2: The universities responded by not giving a shit. They refused

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Speaker 2: to sanction one another, and within a few years they

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Speaker 2: had to walk the Sanity cold back. But in the

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Speaker 2: early nineteen fifties, the NCAA finally got some teeth. They

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Speaker 2: hired a man named Walter Byers to be executive director.

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Speaker 2: He was their first full time employee. Now, Buyers came

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Speaker 2: along when public trust in the NCAA was pretty low

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Speaker 2: and the organization was dealing with two very significant scandals.

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Speaker 2: William and Mary had engaged in grade fixing to keep

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Speaker 2: their players eligible. There also was a massive point shaming

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Speaker 2: scandal in college basketball involving the University of Kentucky, who

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Speaker 2: were the reigning national champions. Somehow Buyers convinced Kentucky, which

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Speaker 2: was coached by Adolph Rupp, then to accept the season

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Speaker 2: long suspension.

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Speaker 1: And then he further solidified his power on some.

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Speaker 2: Old game of throne shit by taking control of the

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Speaker 2: NCAA's television negotiations. But the biggest break the NCUBLEA could

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Speaker 2: have ever gotten in its early history came in nineteen

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Speaker 2: sixty one when Congress passed the Sports Broadcasting Act, which

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Speaker 2: banned the NFL from broadcasting games on Saturdays during the

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Speaker 2: fall and much of the winner, and with Buyers negotiating

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Speaker 2: a TV deal for college football worth a little over

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Speaker 2: three million percent season, which was more than the NFL's

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Speaker 2: TV deal at the time, the NCUBA went straight on

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Speaker 2: the path to becoming a powerhouse.

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Speaker 1: They owned Saturdays.

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Speaker 2: With the money rolling in, the schools stopped resisting Buyers

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Speaker 2: and the NCUBLEA ways entirely. In fact, the way Buyers

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Speaker 2: ruled the NCUBA, you just know he was the kid

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Speaker 2: who always got the pizza party canceled. He expanded the

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Speaker 2: NCAA rule book to four hundred and twenty seven pages.

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Speaker 2: It was Buyers who created the term student athlete, not

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Speaker 2: because he cared about students educating themselves, but because he

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Speaker 2: was trying to avoid paying out a lawsuit to the

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Speaker 2: widow of a football player named Ray Denison, who shattered

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Speaker 2: the base of his skull in a game and died

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Speaker 2: thirty hours later. Now, Dennison's Wouldowbilly, sued her husband's university,

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Speaker 2: Fort Lewis A and M College for workers' compensation benefits. Buyers, however,

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Speaker 2: couldn't afford players to be seen as employees because that

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Speaker 2: meant the nc DOUBLEA would have to start sharing the money.

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Speaker 2: Buyers instructed schools to use the term student athlete to

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Speaker 2: describe players, told them to stop referring to their teams

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Speaker 2: as clubs and instead call them college teams. Now, as

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Speaker 2: you see from this history, the NCUBA has been hypocritical, conniving,

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Speaker 2: and anti player empowerment.

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Speaker 1: For a very long time.

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Speaker 2: With billions of dollars and TV deals, including the one

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Speaker 2: behind the upcoming College Football National Championship, the NCUABA has

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Speaker 2: become a powerful conglomerate. The NCUBA does not pay taxes

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Speaker 2: because they are classified as a five h one C three,

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Speaker 2: which is a designation the government gives to religious, charitable

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Speaker 2: or educational organizations. According to the most recent data, the

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Speaker 2: NCUABA generated a little over one billion in revenue, with

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Speaker 2: much of that coming from March Madness. Now, this figure

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Speaker 2: does not include the College Football Playoff because that is

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Speaker 2: not technically run by the NCUBA, or rather a group

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Speaker 2: of university presidents and managers, which kind of sounds just

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Speaker 2: like the NCUBLEA, which is made up of member institutions.

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Speaker 1: But fyi.

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Speaker 2: Beginning in twenty twenty six, ESPN will began paying the

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Speaker 2: college football player off about one point three billion through

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Speaker 2: twenty thirty one. Either way, the NCAA and college football

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Speaker 2: as we know it is crumbling that Walter Byer's NCAA

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Speaker 2: model is on the verge of extinction. The NCAA is

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Speaker 2: battling multiple court cases that will reshape college sports forever.

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Speaker 2: This April, there will be a hearing to finally approve

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Speaker 2: a two point seven billion dollar settlement agreement that will

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Speaker 2: compensate athletes for past, future and commercial use of their names, images,

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Speaker 2: and likeness. As part of the settlement, major conferences have

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Speaker 2: agreed to develop a revenue sharing plan where each school

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Speaker 2: will be able to direct about twenty one million a

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Speaker 2: year for use of their athlete's name, image, and likeness.

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Speaker 2: Now I've seen in her some fans complain that this

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Speaker 2: will ruin college sports. Ruin is a strong word. It's

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Speaker 2: not going to ruin anything. This is financial justice and

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Speaker 2: the penance the NCAA deserves to pay for its greed,

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Speaker 2: which has been apparent since athletes were getting paid in

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Speaker 2: alcohol and ores.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jamel Hill, and I approve this message.

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Speaker 2: Now, coming up next on politics, I'm going to keep

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Speaker 2: this conversation going with a lawyer who is co consul

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Speaker 2: and another important case against the nc double A and

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Speaker 2: a throwback to the days of Walter Bayer's College athletes

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Speaker 2: are also currently suing for the right to be classified

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Speaker 2: as employees. If that happens, colleges and universities would be

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Speaker 2: on the hook for a whole lot.

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Speaker 1: More than name, image and likeness.

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Speaker 2: Not only would my guests explain what this case is about,

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Speaker 2: but he'll also share the demeaning, racist argument the NCUBLEA

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Speaker 2: is trying to use to prevent players from being classified

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Speaker 2: as employees.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you a hint. Calvin Candy would be proud.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next on politics, Attorney Paul McDonald. Well, Paul,

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Speaker 2: I want to thank you so much for joining me

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Speaker 2: to explain something that the NC DOUBLEA is doing that

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Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people are very aware of.

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Speaker 2: But we're gonna get to that in a moment. But first,

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you a question that I ask

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Speaker 2: every guest that appears on politics, and that is tell

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Speaker 2: me about an athlete or a moment that made you

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Speaker 2: love sports.

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Speaker 3: My dad and I back in nineteen eighty one, we

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Speaker 3: were living in the Los Angeles area and we got

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Speaker 3: a chance to go to the last time the Doctors

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Speaker 3: played the Yankees in the World Series. And I still

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Speaker 3: have that program from back then, so and of course

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Speaker 3: that's a World Series. I had a bunch of Hall

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Speaker 3: of Famers in it, right, obviously Reggie Jackson, and so

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Speaker 3: that's kind of I guess it's kind of a memory

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Speaker 3: that is really in my mind right now because of

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Speaker 3: what's currently going on.

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Speaker 2: Now, let's get to this very landmark case that you

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Speaker 2: have going on now with the NC DOUBLEA, which is

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Speaker 2: Johnson versus the ncuble A. Now you're representing a former

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Speaker 2: Villanova football player, Trey Johnson, who's suing the double A

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Speaker 2: basically for the right or college athletes to be turned

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Speaker 2: as employers and not just student athletes, which is this

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Speaker 2: nebulous term that we all know is a little bit

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Speaker 2: fake in the sense that they are far beyond just

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Speaker 2: the normal students. So can you just, in you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of Layman's terms, tell us what is sort of

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Speaker 2: the essential argument that you're trying to make against the NCAA.

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Speaker 3: So our case is really quite simple. Basically, our case says,

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Speaker 3: when you look at work study students. You know, students

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Speaker 3: who are in offices, filing papers, libraries, checking IDs, washing dishes,

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Speaker 3: even people who are taking tickets and selling you popcorn

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Speaker 3: and SAA games, those are all student employees. And so

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Speaker 3: our case basically says, if you take the criteria that

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Speaker 3: makes all of those students employees of the university and

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Speaker 3: you apply it to athletes, athletes clearly meet the bar

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Speaker 3: for being student employees. And the reason why it's interesting

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Speaker 3: is because one of the things the NCAAA always says

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Speaker 3: during this whole kind of argument, this debate, especially when

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Speaker 3: they go to Congress, they always make the statement, well,

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Speaker 3: we pose them with them being athletes, we oppose them

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Speaker 3: being employees because we have to quote unquote keep them students.

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Speaker 3: Notre Dame is particularly bad about this in terms of

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Speaker 3: making that kind of statement. But there's been student employment

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Speaker 3: on college campuses a fixture on college campus for more

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Speaker 3: than fifty years in workstay style programs. And when you

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Speaker 3: look at the fact that NCAA athletes have timesheets, for instance,

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Speaker 3: literally all you'd have to do is fold them into

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Speaker 3: the system that already exists that no one complains about.

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Speaker 3: And for instance, some of the things NCAA mentions, oh

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Speaker 3: what about tax considerations, Well, student employment in workstay stall

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Speaker 3: programs is except for VIKA, would be the same thing

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Speaker 3: with athletes if they were folded into the system. The

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Speaker 3: only thing that is materially different between if an athlete

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Speaker 3: were in a work stay style program versus say, someone

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Speaker 3: who sells popcorn at the games, is that you would

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Speaker 3: want to include into the employment contract for athletes a

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Speaker 3: provision that says you can't be fired for dropping a past,

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Speaker 3: missing a shot. But the good news, and for those

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Speaker 3: folks who seem to make a big deal about that,

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Speaker 3: is that you already have language in the NCAA bylaws

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Speaker 3: around the provisions that say you can't revoke or rescind

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Speaker 3: a scholarship or reduce a scholarship for athletic performance. So

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Speaker 3: you just take that same language and put it into

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Speaker 3: the employment contract, you know, in terms of in terms

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Speaker 3: of employment terms. So it really is quite simple. It's

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Speaker 3: just work study. And so every time they go around

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Speaker 3: talking about it, and they never talk, they never acknowledge

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Speaker 3: works that even exist. Again, they go around telling Congress

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Speaker 3: in the public, oh, we have to keep them students,

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Speaker 3: as if being a student and employee is somehow mutually.

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Speaker 4: Exclusive, and it's not, and they know better. So our

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Speaker 4: case is simple.

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Speaker 2: So you said something interesting in your answer. You said,

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Speaker 2: athletes have timesheets, they do this. This was something I

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Speaker 2: was unaware of.

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Speaker 3: So you know, you have that thing they call accountable,

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Speaker 3: have legally related activities, Kara, And so basically what it means,

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Speaker 3: it's a bit of a fiction. It's twenty hours a

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Speaker 3: week that you have supervised activity, supervised by coaches, trainers,

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Speaker 3: so on and so forth. We all know from different studies.

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Speaker 3: The NCAA inducts of athletes that athletes in all the

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Speaker 3: sports can probably commit around thirty two up to forty

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Speaker 3: hours a week to their sport. But the twenty hours

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Speaker 3: is supposed to be the time that you're limited to

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Speaker 3: supervise activities. Other things are put on putting courage.

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Speaker 2: Okay, oh that's how you get the involuntary workouts.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So you read culture's deposition from or it's testimony from

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Speaker 3: the Northwestern case and he's like, well, yeah, if I

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Speaker 3: don't go to this voluntary workout, I'm not going to play.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, they have they have time sheets, and the

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Speaker 3: thing is funny about it, you know, and this will

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Speaker 3: be interesting in terms of discovery in this case, it's

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Speaker 3: to me, it's pretty clear that they've modeled some of

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Speaker 3: these regulations for the athletes after work study, because you

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Speaker 3: have the time sheets, because you have the so called

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Speaker 3: twenty hour a week limitation, which is consistent with what

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Speaker 3: work study requires. So they think they pretty well know,

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Speaker 3: they've known for some time that it's just work study.

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Speaker 3: They just, for whatever reason and they haven't really explained themselves,

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Speaker 3: want to deny the athletes the same status and rights

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Speaker 3: that the students all on popcorn House.

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Speaker 2: So how did you go from being how did you

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Speaker 2: go from working in Philadelphia's district Attorney's office to now

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Speaker 2: litigating against the NCAA.

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Speaker 3: So so I took a few steps in between. I

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Speaker 3: worked at a couple of big firms in DC, worked

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Speaker 3: at a big corporation in Chicago, and decided I wanted

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Speaker 3: to do things I cared about. You know, I was

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Speaker 3: kind of in a position where I was, at least

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Speaker 3: at the time, I was financially in position where I

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Speaker 3: could easily do that. Not so much now it's a

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Speaker 3: little since it's been ten years going on, you have

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Speaker 3: to make a few sacrifices to do what you care about.

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Speaker 3: But it just was, it was an you know, this

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Speaker 3: was one of the issues I cared about. Is something

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Speaker 3: that my dad and I talked about. In fact, he's

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Speaker 3: really the way how I got the idea about work

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Speaker 3: study because we're having a conversation around Johnny Manziel back

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Speaker 3: in the day, which was interesting because my dad went

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Speaker 3: to University of Texas, so, you know, kind of paying

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Speaker 3: us to have that conversation. We're talking about Johnny Manzel

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Speaker 3: and everyone talking about how athletes maybe should be paid.

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Speaker 3: I mean, dads like well, you know, I was, I

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Speaker 3: was working in the dining hall, and I was you know,

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Speaker 3: I was employed as a as a student, So why

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Speaker 3: can't they just do that with the athletes.

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Speaker 4: So that's where this idea kind of came about.

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Speaker 3: And you know the other things I've done I think

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Speaker 3: have provided me a background to do this, because, especially

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Speaker 3: working at a big firm, I had to kind of

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Speaker 3: teach myself labor and employment law on the run, but

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Speaker 3: I worked. I was fortunate for the work at Kirkland

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Speaker 3: Ellis in DC and the litigation training they gave me

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Speaker 3: there was instrumental in being able to kind of take

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Speaker 3: that and put it into this arena.

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Speaker 2: Now we see that the NC double A through litigation,

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Speaker 2: they're going to.

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Speaker 1: Have to figure out a different system. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think they know that the iceberg.

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Speaker 2: They're on the Titanic, and the iceberg's right in front

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Speaker 2: of them, and it feels like if they don't understand

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Speaker 2: this now, then they never will. There's other lawsuits also

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Speaker 2: that the NC double A is currently you know involved in,

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Speaker 2: one of which the big one is House versus the

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Speaker 2: NC DOUBLEA, where the temporary settlement of nearly three billion

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Speaker 2: dollars has been approved, which basically clears the way for

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Speaker 2: colleges to begin directly paying players. So how does the

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Speaker 2: lawsuit that you're a league counsel on sort of intertwine

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Speaker 2: or intersect with that one.

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Speaker 4: By the way, I want to say, I'm co counsel

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Speaker 4: in this case, and I want.

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Speaker 3: Toy I want to live my co counsel at Wigdor

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Speaker 3: LLP their due respect. They represent Brian Flores, also represent

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Speaker 3: Jim Trotter in his case, so they do great work

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Speaker 3: in the overall space of sports in other areas as well.

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Speaker 3: They're labor and employment specialist, So I want to make

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Speaker 3: sure that people understand I've been doing it longer, but

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Speaker 3: they are my co counsel in this case. So House

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Speaker 3: is actually interesting and really kind of I think a

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Speaker 3: great thing. First of all, it's a great thing for

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Speaker 3: athletes in general. Let me just say that, because I

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Speaker 3: know some people have misgivings about it.

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Speaker 4: I don't.

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Speaker 3: I think it's it's actually I think it's a step

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Speaker 3: in the right direction. Obviously, there's two components to it.

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Speaker 3: There's the backwards looking part, which I think is pretty

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Speaker 3: clear to me, is going to go forward in some

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Speaker 3: form or fashion. I know people have some concerns about

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Speaker 3: whether there's equity on gender issues. Those things need to

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Speaker 3: be worked out is the forward looking part, which I

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Speaker 3: think is really interesting when you look at our case,

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Speaker 3: because the twenty two million dollar cap essentially that would

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Speaker 3: come into play for revenue sharing, at least as I

401
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Speaker 3: understand it is a per se antitrust violation from day

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Speaker 3: one in the absence of having an anti trust exemption,

403
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Speaker 3: which you know, to be honest, I don't think they're

404
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Speaker 3: going to get from Congress because if those were were

405
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Speaker 3: given out easily, then you'd have one for big tech

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Speaker 3: and big pharma, right they get you know, the DOJ

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Speaker 3: bothers them enough that they would be bothering Congress for that.

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Speaker 3: The other way you get around the anti trust violation

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Speaker 3: aspect of having a cap is effective Barnay Agreement. So

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Speaker 3: the point is that at some point, whether the NCAA

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Speaker 3: wants to admit it or not, the easiest way for

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Speaker 3: them to both have revenue sharing that cannot be challenged

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Speaker 3: by other law firms, and they're not going to get

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Speaker 3: sued by Kessler Burman again, but they think very well

415
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Speaker 3: get sued, for instance, by Housefeld, who's an opposition to

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Speaker 3: the settlement, in order to have instantly meimunized from further

417
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Speaker 3: challenges to the revenue sharing, or for that matter, any

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Speaker 3: of their rules going forward in antitrust or other ways.

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Speaker 3: The best way to do that is through elective Barney agreement.

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Speaker 3: It also gives you certainty about whether you're talking about

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Speaker 3: nil transfer rules. It sets the rules of the road,

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Speaker 3: just like it does in pro sports. And during the

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Speaker 3: time period that CBA is in place. You know this,

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Speaker 3: I'm telling you what you already down and a lot

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Speaker 3: of your listeners and viewers already know it too. But

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Speaker 3: it sets the rules for the road and you have certainty,

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Speaker 3: and a lot of you hear a lot of coaches

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Speaker 3: nowadays in college ranks talking about how.

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Speaker 4: They would love to have that certainty.

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Speaker 3: So the house, to me, kind of creates a circumstance

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Speaker 3: where if the NCA is serious about trying to be

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Speaker 3: relevant and have a role in going forward in being

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Speaker 3: a governing partner, if you will, with the labor force,

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Speaker 3: then it's almost inevitable to me that they have to

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Speaker 3: recognize the athletes or employees in order to have the

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00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 3: protections that come with elective Barney agreement. So I think

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Speaker 3: it works well.

438
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think is pretty easy to see

439
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 2: that that would be and it's kind of been their

440
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 2: achilles heell this entire time, Like the whole reason they

441
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: even got to this point is because they refuse to

442
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 2: face the obvious.

443
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: I don't even think it was a matter of them

444
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: facing the obvious.

445
00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: I think they just frankly were greedy and never thought

446
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 2: that the day would come where the RECOGNI would be

447
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 2: upon them. Now, what's very interesting about your case is

448
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 2: the argument the nc double A is trying to make

449
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 2: to prevent classifying student athletes as employees. I know, to

450
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 2: a lot of people listening, what I'm about to say

451
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 2: next is going to make them stop in their tracks

452
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 2: a little bit. But the NC double a part of

453
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,520
Speaker 2: my understanding based off reading your work and hearing you

454
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 2: talk about other things, And I want you to really

455
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: take us through this explanation. They're making an argument that

456
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 2: is pro slavery. I guess that would be the best

457
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 2: swag up with it, But they are literally making a

458
00:22:54,880 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 2: slavery argument in order to justify why NCUBA as leads

459
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,400
Speaker 2: should not be considered employee.

460
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: So Paul, take us through this out.

461
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 4: So there's a case called Van Skykee v. Peters. Van

462
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 4: Skykee is v. A N S k I k E V.

463
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 3: Peters that they've been citing for the last decade for

464
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 3: the proposition essentially, and the Third Circuit. We had a

465
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 3: ruling in the Third Circuit this past summer that really

466
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 3: kind of fleshed it out and actually in one sentence

467
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 3: they broke it all down. What the NCAA had been

468
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 3: saying for the last ten years is that their amateurism rules,

469
00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 3: which people need to recognize, have never been law. I

470
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 3: think people sometimes hear about amateurism and people getting investigated

471
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 3: for breaking NCAA rule, and people think of it as

472
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 3: being breaking the law, and it's not. They're just private

473
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 3: organizational rules. And you know, the Supreme Court and NCAA

474
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 3: B also really kind of clarified this when saying, you know,

475
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 3: essentially you have to buy by the same rule as

476
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 3: any other industry does. So the NCAA had been saying

477
00:23:55,119 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 3: that amateurism should be given essentially the same legal effect

478
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 3: deference as the thirteenth of Himent slavery exception, which is

479
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 3: what's discussed in Van skyciv.

480
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 4: Peters.

481
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 3: In that case, a prisoner sued under the same law.

482
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 3: We're suing Fair Libristanders Act for employee status to have

483
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 3: the rights and hourly wages, so on and so forth,

484
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: and the court rule that you may very well meet

485
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,400
Speaker 3: the standard if you were to go through the test,

486
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 3: and you could probably meet the criteria. But because the

487
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 3: thirteenth Amendment provides that in voluntary servitude and slavery are

488
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 3: abolished except if you're convicted of crime, you know the

489
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 3: thing that we all saw and Enable Dournay's Netflix documentary Thirteenth.

490
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 3: Because of that, it doesn't matter what the test might say,

491
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 3: you cannot be an employee under federal law. So the

492
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 3: NCAA was saying, well, our amateurism rules should have the

493
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 3: same legal effect and deference as that. So the Third

494
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 3: Circuit this summer comes through and says, and this is

495
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,359
Speaker 3: the reason why it's important because I think when people

496
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 3: first hear it, they think, oh, you're just saying that.

497
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: That's you know, you're being hyperbolic. Now, the Third Circuit

498
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: said clearly in their opinion, they said, we disagree with

499
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 3: the comparison of college athletes to prisoners, and we refuse

500
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 3: to equate a prisoners. In Voluntary servitude is authorized by

501
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 3: the Thirteenth Amendment. With a tradition of amateurism in college athletics.

502
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 3: Let me repeat that again. The Third Circuit set this,

503
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 3: we refused, we disagree with the comparison of college athletes

504
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: to prisoners, and refuse to equate a prisoners in voluntary

505
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: servitude is authorized under the Thirteenth Amendment to a tradition

506
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 3: of amateurism in college athletics. So they're recognized, they're recognized.

507
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 3: That's what they say is trying to do.

508
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:41,439
Speaker 2: Now, as a lawyer, how surprising it is it that

509
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 2: the NCAA would lean into this kind of strategy, particularly then, like,

510
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 2: let's just call it what it is, the elephant. It's

511
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 2: not necessarily elephant room. People can see it. You know,

512
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: particularly with the revenue sports that are dominated by black athletes.

513
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 2: You're making an argument in court that they need to

514
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 2: be compared to prison listeners and slaves, and that should

515
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 2: be the reason that you are able to not pay them.

516
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: You know, as a lawyer, how surprised are I surprised

517
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 2: to you that this is the basis that they're standing on.

518
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: Well, keep in mind, I was there in the first

519
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: case Burger v. NCAA when they first made this argument,

520
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 3: and I remember distinctly being in the Seventh Circuit prepared

521
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 3: to give my argument against this and being cut off

522
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 3: by that panel in the Seventh Circuit. They wouldn't even

523
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 3: let me talk about Van Scott, k B.

524
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 4: Peters.

525
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 3: So I've been living with this for ten years, fighting

526
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 3: the NCAAA, with them getting away with it, you know,

527
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 3: and it's funny because well it's not funny, but it's ironic,

528
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: perhaps because people may remember that that South Park satire

529
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 3: with Cartman a student athlete where he plays, you know,

530
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 3: plantation owner going to University of Colorado, you know, to

531
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 3: the to their athletic director, their president and talking about

532
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 3: you know, trading you know, athletes, you know in a

533
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 3: way that you know resembles a slave trade. And so

534
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 3: it's you know, that's satire. But then you go and say,

535
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 3: but in this case, truth is actually stranger than fiction.

536
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 3: They're making an argument based on this case Van Skykiv

537
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: Peters and what they did for all these years. They

538
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 3: tried to say, oh, it's not about that, it's not

539
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 3: about this. But if you read the case, it's crystal

540
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 3: clear what the case is about. And the Third Circuit

541
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 3: actually is not the first court to say that this

542
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 3: is about the Thirteenth Amendment slavery exception. We had a

543
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 3: case prior to Johnson Livers v. NCAA, which with withdrawal

544
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: with withdrawn because of satural limitation issues. But we were

545
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 3: able to get some discovery in a little bit far

546
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 3: along on that case. And in that case the judge

547
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 3: made the comment that van skykiv Peters is about the

548
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: thirteent Demendment slavery exception.

549
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 4: So they know about this, they've known about it.

550
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: The Court the Third Circuit in our in our case,

551
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 3: they ruled this summer, but we had the hearing in

552
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: February of last year, and in that when Maanskyki was

553
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 3: mentioned in the hearing, the judge McKee said ridiculous, and

554
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: jeers Repper also time to saying ridiculous. Yeah, it's ridiculous.

555
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: So NCAA has known that this is not only an

556
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 3: offensive argument, they've also known as not one that was

557
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 3: going to work. And of course you also had this

558
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 3: statement from Reverend sharfton an NFLPA that came out last

559
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 3: May as well.

560
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 4: So you know, it's it's you'd have to ask them.

561
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 3: As to why they thought that was an appropriate thing

562
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,719
Speaker 3: to do. The thing that gets me more than anything

563
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 3: else is that everyone, let's say everyone sports folks, know

564
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 3: they made this argument. That's kind of the subject of

565
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: the op ed I wrote for Sportico last month.

566
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 4: I have receipts, I have emails.

567
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 3: Sports folks know that they made this argument, and they

568
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 3: simply have given them a pass on it. And one

569
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: of the things I talk about in my op ed

570
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: is by comparison, when you look at what happened with

571
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 3: the women's soccer team US women's national team, US Soccer Federation,

572
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 3: they make a sexist offensive argument saying that women don't

573
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: work as hard as men, against equal pay right and

574
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 3: immediately and rightfully so, sports media and other folks call

575
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 3: them to task. There's accountability. Carlos Cadero, the president of

576
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 3: the soccer Federation, has to resign in shame, although apparently

577
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 3: he's trying to make a comeback. But you know, which

578
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 3: is maybe maybe similar to what we're seeing in politics

579
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: right now, right but you know, there's accountability there, and

580
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: so far the NCAA has avoided any accountability for making

581
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: this argument, which I will tell you in my twenty

582
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: five years of practicing law, it's kind of your point

583
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 3: about being surprising is the most blatantly racist thing I've

584
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 3: seen in an industry you know, corporation or industry fact

585
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 3: that most people probably wouldn't touch it. With the Tim

586
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: Foot poll, most people would say, well, if that's the

587
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 3: argument you think you can make, then you just don't

588
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: make that argument, and especially when all you're trying to

589
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 3: do is again at the end of this is say

590
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: that you don't want the athletes to have the same

591
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 3: rights and status as the student selling popcorn. Really, you're

592
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: going to go to the slavery exception, You're going to

593
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 3: go to this case of vents guide to v. Peters

594
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: because you don't want the athletes to have those rights

595
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 3: that the kids on. It's it's outrageous a lot.

596
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: Of from a fans perspective. I'm sure you've heard all

597
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 2: the pushback from them over the years about why college

598
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: athletes shouldn't be paid and.

599
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: A scholarship is enough. But as you're.

600
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 2: Making this argument about them being considered employees, some will say, well, wait,

601
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 2: isn't there a big difference in workload and expectation.

602
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: And even revenue output.

603
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: Not that that has anything to do with you being

604
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 2: an employee, but I'm just going to throw what some

605
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 2: fans might say, there's a difference between a football player

606
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 2: and a tennis player in terms of revenue generated and

607
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: other nuances of their sport. So why should they all

608
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: be classified the same as employees regardless of revenue that

609
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: is generated.

610
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: Well, so, sir, first point about revenue is very very

611
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: important because I think people need to remember there are

612
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 3: all kinds of folks who don't generate revenue, whatever the

613
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: heck that means.

614
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 4: Right, cost centers, you know.

615
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 3: Lawyers, I say is all the time, if you're an

616
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: in house lawyer to corporation, the in house lawyers working

617
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: for the universities, they don't generate any revenue, right, people

618
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 3: in HR, people in it janitors don't generate revenue, but

619
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 3: they are, as you've kind of kind of recognized, they're

620
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 3: all employees. So that's not really the issue, right, And

621
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: the other thing people have to remember in terms of

622
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: the sports, So our case deals really with the idea

623
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: of basic rights and then basic pay like base salaries

624
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: what I kind of refer to it as, so all

625
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: of the athletes meet the criteria to be a student

626
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 3: employee more than their fellow students who are again filing papers,

627
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,000
Speaker 3: checking IDs, you know, washing dishes or again I go

628
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: to the popcorn, taking tickets at the games. They all

629
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 3: meet it more than So that's now if you're going

630
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: to talk about how some sports generate more revenue those

631
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: kinds of things, that's where I think you get into

632
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 3: the collective bargaining aspect of this.

633
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 4: And well two things.

634
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: One is you got collective bargaining where you can have

635
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: revenue sharing which would be based upon I think sport

636
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 3: because I think even if you if you unionize, you

637
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: probably would have units that would be based upon sport football, basketball,

638
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: and then you might have some sports that might be

639
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: grouped together.

640
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 4: Right, so you.

641
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 3: Would have some revenue sharing differences among the sports, and

642
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: then you would also have nil differences individually because of

643
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 3: popularity of sports and individuals. Our case just deals with

644
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: the idea of a base salary. So for instance, right now,

645
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 3: you know, if you're the parent of an athlete who

646
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,959
Speaker 3: maybe doesn't make an IL or isn't you know, in

647
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 3: a situation where you're you're blessed in that circumstance and

648
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 3: you still have to send your kid, you know, weekend

649
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 3: beer money, right, whereas the parents down the street whose

650
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: kid might be on academic scholarship. And by the way,

651
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 3: not every athletes on athletic scholarship people, you can also

652
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 3: remember that. But let's say you're talking about a kid

653
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 3: who's on academic scholarship, but his or her parents he

654
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 3: works here or she works in the library checking ID.

655
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 3: One person told me that they were essentially getting paid,

656
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 3: you know, to to to study when they were checking

657
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: id's the library, right. You know, they get money that

658
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 3: their parents don't have to send them. But if you're

659
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: an athlete, your parents who've already probably dug deep into

660
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: their pockets to even get to that place. When you

661
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: look at all the camps and travel things that the

662
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: folks have to do nowadays, they have to still dig

663
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 3: deeper to send you money for the weekends. Because even

664
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: if you have a scholarship, it's only academic expenses. It

665
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: doesn't include you know, walking around money.

666
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 4: So that's the thing is.

667
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: It's not that our case again doesn't address the differences

668
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: in sports in terms of revenue. Collective bargaining revenue sharing

669
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: would do that. It doesn't touch an il. It's just

670
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 3: simply saying everyone deserves some type of base pay that's

671
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: comparable to what the other students on campus are getting.

672
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 3: So we're not saying that, you know, they should be

673
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 3: treated exorbitantly better. I mean, we're not talking about hundreds

674
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 3: of dollars an hour again like lawyers would make. We're

675
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 3: talking about the range that the other students are doing.

676
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this or could it be subject

677
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: to cause different states? Yes, we have a federal minimum wage,

678
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 2: but different states have some states have different minimum wages.

679
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: You have fifteen bucks or eight ten bucks doing so

680
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 2: would they legally would they be subject would that be

681
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: the law that they are following? Because like comparing it

682
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: to the average student, And again I'm you're the lawyer here,

683
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: so you tell me.

684
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: But the average student.

685
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 2: You know, if you're in California, for example, what we

686
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 2: have a higher minimum wage, you could go out and

687
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 2: get a job at Chippolan and get paid eighteen dollars

688
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: an hour, right, So would then that be the basis

689
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,520
Speaker 2: for what a student athlete is paid.

690
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 4: It would?

691
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 3: It would. So what you'd have is really the comparison

692
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 3: of what colleges are paying their work stay students. So

693
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 3: you have the Bureau of Labor Statistics kind of has

694
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 3: these things they do on an annual basis. It gives

695
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 3: you an idea of what the going rate is on

696
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: campuses for different kinds of jobs. You know, you have

697
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: some some benchmarks that are quite interesting. I mean, you

698
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,880
Speaker 3: know the Dartmouth case. You found out through the Dartmouth

699
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 3: case that the dining hall workers at Dartmouth get paid

700
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: twenty one dollars an hour. Wow, I know, right, And

701
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 3: by the way, that's it. And by the way, and

702
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 3: by the way, that's the dining services that has lost

703
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: money for the last three years. So you know it,

704
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,240
Speaker 3: so that those things could kind of work their way around.

705
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 3: I think kind of one of the things you're kind

706
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: of getting at. I don't see that there would be

707
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 3: a bidding war, if you will, on hourly wages or

708
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 3: anything of that nature, because I think that still is

709
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 3: the nil area. In other words, you're not going to

710
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 3: be looking at some school offering a star player in

711
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: any sport. Oh, we're going to pay you hundreds of

712
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 3: dollars hourly wage. No, they would still do the nil thing.

713
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 3: So it's still again, ours is kind of the base

714
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 3: salary to make sure everybody is taken care of, consistent

715
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 3: with the fact that all of them meet the standard

716
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: and are working harder and contributing more to the universities

717
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 3: than their fellow students, and no one can see that's

718
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 3: something else is kind of interesting. No one complains about

719
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 3: work study, and they don't say it's too expensive, you know,

720
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 3: they don't say any of these things. And the other

721
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 3: thing is important about the work study comparison because it

722
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 3: goes really at the heart of what the NCAA is

723
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 3: trying to do when they're in Congress arguing for some

724
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 3: type of exemption. When you recognize that there are other

725
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 3: student employees, which again the NCAA has tried to kind

726
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 3: of obscure, then you also recognize, especially as a lawyer,

727
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 3: that any attempt to single out athletes to deny them

728
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 3: the same status and rights as their fellow students, you know,

729
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 3: who are working in work stay stout programs. Finally, its

730
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: equal protection, which is to say that what the NCAA

731
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 3: is trying to do in Congress is an in complete

732
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 3: waste of Congress's time and a waste of lot being money.

733
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 3: And again, the way they try to do that is

734
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 3: they don't even acknowledge work study exists. It's a really

735
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 3: interesting trick that here you have representatives of universities that

736
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,280
Speaker 3: work study has been a fixture for more than fifty

737
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 3: years if they know. I mean, the presidents of universities

738
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 3: have students working in their offices. They know this, and

739
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 3: yet they go up and they kind of deal with

740
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 3: the fact that people, if you haven't been on campus

741
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 3: in a while, you might forget that there are student employees.

742
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 3: It's not a big deal. And they use that in

743
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: a very disingenuous way. I don't even know they've ever

744
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 3: technically been sworn in and hearings. To be honest, I

745
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 3: can't recall that happening. I would love to see them

746
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: sworn in and deny that there are student employees. But yeah,

747
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 3: that's what they're doing. It's it's in vilet equal protection.

748
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 3: So they're really just wasting Congress's time trying to get

749
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 3: them to do something that would be struck down in

750
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 3: federal court.

751
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: I was a work study student and I'm trying to

752
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: I remember there was a minimum number of hours you

753
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: had to do. What I don't recall is if there

754
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 2: was a maximum.

755
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 3: And nowadays it's twenty. Now it's twenty at least they

756
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 3: recommend twenty.

757
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, they recommend it.

758
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 4: They want you to be.

759
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 3: Part time because the idea is that, well, say that

760
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 3: nothing's funny about it, right, So work study, for instance,

761
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: supervisors are supposed to schedule your work around your choices

762
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: of classes, right, So there's there's there's an accommodation for

763
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 3: academics with work study, whereas if you're an athlete, you

764
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 3: you have to schedule your classes in your major around

765
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 3: practice times. That's you know, I tell people all the time,

766
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 3: you can't believe every athlete wants to be a communications major.

767
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: Come on right, right?

768
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: Or say it was criminal justice, and yes, I think

769
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: a universe of Michigan is like kinesiology.

770
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: It's like, hey, guys, we're kind of into it.

771
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,279
Speaker 3: Yeah. It's the people I think don't appreciate how much control.

772
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 3: And that's kind of you know, the fundamental the main

773
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: issue when you look at an employee status is control.

774
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 3: How much control the computive employer in this case, university

775
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 3: has over you for instance. That's the reason why when

776
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 3: people sometimes the NCAA used to try it back, and

777
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 3: I think USC is still trying this in the NLRB case,

778
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 3: trying to say, oh, it's a slippery slope. What about

779
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,919
Speaker 3: the members of the band and those things. It's like, well,

780
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 3: those by definition, in their own directories are student run groups.

781
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 3: If you're a student run group, you could be an

782
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 3: employee of the student run group, depending on the circumstance.

783
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 3: Let's say you are working for the school newspaper and

784
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,760
Speaker 3: the school newspapers Incorporated and so on and so forth

785
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 3: it's student run. You might be an employee of the

786
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 3: student run group, but you're not employee of the university

787
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 3: because the university can't tell you what to do.

788
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 4: The only people on.

789
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: Campus that the university can absolutely tell what to do

790
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 3: for athletes, and they and they do it in numerous ways.

791
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 3: And so yeah, that's the control issue. It's the level

792
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 3: of control that the university is have over athletes more

793
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 3: than anyone else on campus.

794
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and people have to also recall, I mean, is

795
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 2: that it used to be that student athletes couldn't work

796
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: at all, right, And so yeah, obviously in ail kind

797
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: of kind.

798
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: Of change that.

799
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 2: But because there were caps and limits on them being

800
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 2: able to work at all, that's what made it even

801
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: more egregious that they were not able to participate in

802
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: the economy that they they created. Well, yeah, so you know,

803
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 2: let me let me ask you this for if you're

804
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 2: an athlete and you're you know, thinking about this is

805
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: how what would you say are the biggest benefits to

806
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: why they should be recognized as an employee.

807
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 3: Putting aside for a second again, first, because some athletes

808
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 3: you know, who do well in an IL, you know,

809
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 3: the money we're talking about may not be that a

810
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 3: big deal for them, and it will be a big

811
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: deal for some athletes who don't get an IL in

812
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 3: terms of their parents having to send them money. Putting

813
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,400
Speaker 3: that aside, the big thing really and gets back to

814
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 3: what we're talking about with house, how kind of house

815
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 3: kind of connects is the ability to then collectively bargain,

816
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 3: as you know, to unionize on some in some form

817
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 3: or fashion and collectively bargain because it's it's to me,

818
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: it's crucial whether you're talking about not just money and

819
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 3: revenue sharing, but whether it's mental health issues, whether it's

820
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,600
Speaker 3: you know, just medical benefits, whether it's any term and

821
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 3: condition you can think of of for example, So for instance,

822
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 3: since we're kind of dealing with this idea of them

823
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 3: being student athletes, which by the way, the third circuit

824
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 3: kind of bought into the notion of well, that's you

825
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 3: know again that term is you know, it's a made

826
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 3: up it's a alter buyer's term right from back in

827
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 3: the day with the NCAA. Uh And there's in fact,

828
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 3: I try not to use it anymore. De Smith convinced

829
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 3: me it's like you need to not say students student athlete,

830
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,400
Speaker 3: you know, so I say college athlete now. Uh, so

831
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 3: you know that that idea though of being students, because

832
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 3: there's not an accommodation for athletes in terms of practice

833
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 3: times are held just you know, during other classes, as

834
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 3: opposed to say in high school, where we all know

835
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 3: practices are held you know, in the afternoons so you

836
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 3: can take your class you know, during the day, right,

837
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 3: because there's not accommodations like that, because of we know

838
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 3: that it affects athletes choosing different majors, because we know

839
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,320
Speaker 3: that they actually are doing more than twenty hours in theory.

840
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 4: If you're if the athletes got together and decided.

841
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 3: Hey, we don't want to do more than twenty hours,

842
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: you know, we want to have it strictly limited. To

843
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 3: actually have the rules strictly applied, they could bargain for

844
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 3: that in collective bargaining. And so what you have is

845
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:27,880
Speaker 3: kind of a tension that the NCAA and the schools

846
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 3: have On the one hand, they would love to have

847
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: the immunity from anti trust suits that a collective bargaining

848
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 3: agreement would give them. They would love to have the

849
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 3: certainty around some of you know, the rules and how

850
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 3: things are done. But the tension and the reason why

851
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 3: I think they really are against them being employees is

852
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 3: they still want to be able to dictate every term.

853
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 3: They don't want the athletes to have any substantial say

854
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 3: in any in any condition.

855
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 4: Of what they're doing for the university.

856
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 3: That's the only thing I can come up with because otherwise,

857
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,239
Speaker 3: again you know, prince speaking, if it's good enough and

858
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: I've been talking about the kids selling popcorn, it's good

859
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 3: enough for the kid washing dishes, it was good enough

860
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 3: for the kid, you know, checking IDs in the library.

861
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 3: Why is it not good enough for the athletes? But that,

862
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 3: to me is the big benefit the athletes could have ultimately,

863
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: is the ability to collectively bargain and assure that they're

864
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 3: not being exploited. Because I mean, some people think, and

865
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: there's an argument why that the twenty two million, you

866
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 3: know that that's being set aside house undercuts what.

867
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 4: The revenue share should be.

868
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: Right, it's you know, it's it's far less than fifty

869
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: percent that you see in pretty much any other major sport.

870
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 4: You know, there are folks that.

871
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 3: Say that there are other things that are folded into that,

872
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 3: but at the end of the day, the athletes should

873
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,720
Speaker 3: have a say in that because right now, to some extent,

874
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 3: the terms in house.

875
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:45,399
Speaker 4: And again this is not criticizing.

876
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 3: I think Kessler and Burman have done a great job

877
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 3: getting the NCAA to concede to certain things that they'd

878
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 3: never conceded to before. But those terms were not negotiated

879
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 3: with real student input, you know, student at college athlete

880
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 3: pardon me, college athlete input. You know, it just wasn't.

881
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 3: So that's that's that's the I think the principal benefit.

882
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 3: But the money is not insignificant because of your parent

883
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 3: and you don't have the money to send to your

884
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: kid who's not making an il. That that that keeps

885
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 3: you from digging into your pocket.

886
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,760
Speaker 2: And as every college student knows, and I certainly remember,

887
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: every little bit helps, that's for sure, it definitely does.

888
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 2: Before I get you out of here, Paul, give us

889
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: a sense at the time of this recording or where

890
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 2: does your case stand.

891
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 3: So we're going to follow them in the complaint next week.

892
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,799
Speaker 3: That's that reflects. So the Third Circuit kind of gave

893
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: us some guidelines as to the criteria. They kind of

894
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 3: modified it. They modified the guy the guideline or the

895
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 3: criteria that we had initially worked with, and kind of

896
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 3: in recognition that there's no academic benefit associated with just

897
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 3: pacing nca sports. So the test that had existed was

898
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 3: a test that took into account academic benefit. For for instance,

899
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 3: if you were a student working at a corporation or

900
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 3: the university kind of in an internship position. The idea

901
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 3: was that if you got academic credit, or if it

902
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 3: was related to your academic program, then that might weigh

903
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 3: against your being an employee because you were the primary

904
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 3: beneficiary would be you the student, right, But the court

905
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 3: recognized essentially, well, there's no real academic benefit to participation

906
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 3: in NCAA sports, So they constructed a different kind of

907
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 3: primary primary beneficiary test. So we're filing it amend too

908
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: complaint that will reflect the guidelines that that they provided

909
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 3: the summer. Not concerned at all about beetting that criteria

910
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,479
Speaker 3: because again it's still basically the criteria that that any

911
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 3: student employee would have to meet, and you know, for instance,

912
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 3: give a perfect example, to give you one example, the

913
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: only essential student labor force on campuses is are the

914
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: athletes because in work study, for instance, work study guidelines

915
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 3: say that you are really to hire students to complement

916
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 3: what other with what the adults you know, are doing

917
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 3: in the offices, right, not to substitute, but to compliment.

918
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: In the case of athletics, you can't play the games

919
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 3: without the athletes.

920
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 4: They're the only essential labor force.

921
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 3: I mean, and just may paying you to talk about

922
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 3: Michigan a little bit, but you know, it's like Harball

923
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 3: last year when he was suspended, they kept it moving,

924
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 3: you know, they you know he was spended, the players

925
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 3: kept playing.

926
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 4: You know.

927
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 3: Harorball is interesting because and again I don't want to

928
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 3: harp on him because of your Michigan state affiliation, but

929
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: you know that all he also made some great statements.

930
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 3: I actually miss him in terms of his advocacy on

931
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 3: behalf of college athletes because he made a great statement

932
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 3: last year before the Big Ten Championship game in the

933
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: media call talking about, hey, you know, I would take

934
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 3: less money for the athletes to be paid, because that's

935
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 3: something I think people also forget when they talk about

936
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 3: how are the colleges going to afford this, Well, the

937
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,479
Speaker 3: colleges have had a free labor force for all these years,

938
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 3: so all they've done is given all the money to

939
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 3: the adults and spend it on unnecessary facilities. And if

940
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 3: all you take are the highest paid coaches and staff,

941
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,720
Speaker 3: not the ones in the smaller sports, but the highest

942
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 3: paid coaches and staff, and you just cut some of

943
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 3: their pay just a little bit, make it more rational again.

944
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 3: And I think the faculty members would be happy with that.

945
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 3: It's faculty members are always like, hey, why these guys

946
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 3: getting paid so much more than we are. You could

947
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 3: pay all the athletes, and to the extent that you

948
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 3: had a smaller school that after doing that still had issues.

949
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 3: Then of course you have the fact that you could

950
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 3: have the model you have in every other major sport,

951
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,959
Speaker 3: where the larger players in the game, if you will,

952
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 3: can put together a pot that helps subsidize the other

953
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 3: folks who are who are in their competition. So but

954
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 3: I mentioned all that because it's I think this thing

955
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: is not as complicated as people think it is. They

956
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,400
Speaker 3: just it's because you have the model of work study,

957
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 3: we're going to be able to certainly meet that criteria.

958
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,799
Speaker 3: It's just a matter of at what point people recognize

959
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 3: that it is just work study and trying to legislate

960
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 3: yourself out of this bily tequal protection, so there's no

961
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 3: point in trying. And then, of course, you know, hopefully

962
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 3: people appreciate what the NCAA again, the argument they've been making,

963
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 3: because there should be accountability for that. By the way,

964
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 3: the SEC joined in that argument. You know, it's kind

965
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 3: of on brand, if you will, right.

966
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 1: I was just thinking that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

967
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 3: They followed the Amenkas brief supporting the ncaaa's argument about

968
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: Van skyk b. Peters, And yeah, so you know, there

969
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 3: should be accountability at both the NCAAA and the SEC.

970
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,120
Speaker 3: What that looks like, I think will depend upon, you know,

971
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 3: how people react to being informed that this is happening,

972
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 3: because again, sports media, you.

973
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 4: Know, hasn't touched it. It's amazing when you think about it.

974
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 3: It's amazing when you consider, as you mentioned, it's not

975
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 3: just the number of black folk who participate in the

976
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 3: higher revenue sports in the NCAA, but it's also, as

977
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 3: I mentioned in my out bet for Sportico, if you

978
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,240
Speaker 3: are in sports media, you rely upon access to black athletes,

979
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 3: black coaches, black executives and c suites. You know, how

980
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 3: do you expect us to react, you know, if we

981
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,080
Speaker 3: find out that you couldn't even be concerned about disrespect

982
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 3: to our history and our dignity. You know, and and

983
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 3: you know again I have receipts. What I do with them,

984
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 3: I don't know yet.

985
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 4: We'll see.

986
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 3: I'm hopeful that sports media will wake up and actually

987
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 3: press this issue, just even ask the question of the

988
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 3: NCAA as to because again it's not my allegations what

989
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 3: the Third Circuit said, and you know, and that folks

990
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 3: actually appreciate that this argument was being made, and you know,

991
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 3: for the last ten years in twenty twenty four, well, Paul,

992
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 3: I want.

993
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 2: To thank you so much for joining me and breaking

994
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: all of this down. Be very curious to see what

995
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 2: the NCAA, if it exists, looks like in the next

996
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 2: you know, ten years, because I think ultimately there undoing.

997
00:48:57,719 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: This has been a reckoning.

998
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 2: Again, it's been a long time coming, and so I

999
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: think we are looking at probably the last days of

1000
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 2: the NCAA as it was known to be at its height.

1001
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: It is I think their relevancy is over one more

1002
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 2: segment to go, and you guys know what that means.

1003
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 2: I got questions to answer up next, your viewer slash

1004
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 2: listener questions, and I have plenty of answers coming up

1005
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 2: next on the final segment of politics. Usually I close

1006
00:49:36,760 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 2: out the show within the audience question, but today I'm

1007
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 2: making a short detour to discuss the fires that have

1008
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,839
Speaker 2: ravaged Los Angeles. For those who don't know, I live

1009
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 2: here in Los Angeles. It's been my home for seven years.

1010
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 2: I cannot begin to describe how devastating these fires have been.

1011
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 2: Now my husband and I are blessed. Our home is

1012
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: largely out of harm's way. Other than those in power

1013
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 2: for a few hours, the inside of the house sometimes

1014
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 2: feeling like smoke, and some other very minor inconvenience is

1015
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 2: we were fine. However, I know people who lost their homes,

1016
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: people who had to evacuate, and generally, whether your home

1017
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: was directly impacted or not, we were all living in

1018
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: a constant state of fear and anxiety. But what has

1019
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: been truly fucked up is outsiders, people who do not

1020
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 2: live in California at all. So that cheering on this

1021
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,000
Speaker 2: happening to the folks who live here. Obviously, some of

1022
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: the biggest headlines have been about which celebrities have lost

1023
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: their homes, and that seemed to create this perception that

1024
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 2: the only people who lost anything were millionaires who could

1025
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: theoretically afford such an unspeakable loss. I can assure you

1026
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 2: a lot of people who were not millionaires and not

1027
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,919
Speaker 2: famous lost their homes. And just because you're famous and rich,

1028
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean you deserve something awful like that to

1029
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 2: happen to you either. The other thing that was especially

1030
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 2: bothersome and racist was the number of right wing conservative

1031
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 2: jackasses who rose up to blame the fires on diversity,

1032
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:56,800
Speaker 2: equity and inclusion. Since the fire chief is a queer

1033
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 2: woman who upon her appointment, she said that she wanted

1034
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: to emphasize creating an inclusive workforce, it seems that the

1035
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:08,280
Speaker 2: white folks who constantly bitch and complain are operating from

1036
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 2: an attitude that only white people are qualified to do

1037
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 2: these jobs. Actually, those people think white people are the

1038
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: only ones qualified to do any job. Diversity, equity and

1039
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 2: inclusion does not mean hiring less qualified people. It means

1040
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 2: opening up the hiring pool to include people who have

1041
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 2: historically been frozen out of those jobs because of their

1042
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 2: race or sexuality. The Los Angeles Fire Department has a

1043
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 2: pretty nasty history when it comes to racial discrimination. In fact,

1044
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 2: as recently as twenty twenty two, organizations representing black and

1045
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 2: Latino firefighters called for a federal investigation of the LA

1046
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 2: Fire Department for racist and discriminatory practices. That is why

1047
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: the department was public about its efforts to increase diversity.

1048
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 2: It was a response. So I'm wondering where all those

1049
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 2: white people who complain about DEI. Now, where were they

1050
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: when blacks and Latinos and women were being systematically just

1051
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 2: discriminated against for years? If they cared as much about

1052
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: a quality as they claim they do, how come these

1053
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 2: same white folks didn't look at these companies, businesses, and

1054
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 2: other organizations and say, gin, why is everyone in a

1055
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: decision making role white? Why are white people only being

1056
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 2: hired and promoted? I can tell you why. The racism

1057
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 2: and discrimination was acceptable as long as they were the

1058
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 2: main beneficiary. DII has given them this false impression that

1059
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: they won't be as desired in the workforce. And by

1060
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,520
Speaker 2: the way, more than half of Los Angeles's Fire Department

1061
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 2: employees are white in a city where white folks are

1062
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 2: only twenty eight percent of the population.

1063
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: Go figure.

1064
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 2: Anyway, I'm sending good vibes, positivity prayers to all the

1065
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: folks in Los Angeles. We're going to get through this. Meanwhile,

1066
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 2: I still want your questions. If you would like to

1067
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: ask me a question, I'm at Jmail Hill across all

1068
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 2: social media platforms Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, and threads. Please

1069
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 2: use the hashtags politics. You also have the option of

1070
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 2: emailing me as Politics twenty twenty four at.

1071
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:56,600
Speaker 1: Gmail dot com.

1072
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 2: You can also send me a video of your question,

1073
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 2: but please make sure it's thirty seconds or less. Don't

1074
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,360
Speaker 2: forget to follow and subscribe to this politics on iHeart

1075
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 2: and follows Politics pod on Instagram and TikTok. Politics is

1076
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: spelled s po l i tcs. That is spo l

1077
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: i t cs. A new episode of Spolitics drops every

1078
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 2: Thursday on iHeart Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1079
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 2: This is politics where sports and politics don't just mix,

1080
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 2: they matter. Spolotics is the production of iHeart Podcasts and

1081
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: The Unbothered Network. I'm your host Jamel Hill. Executive producer

1082
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: is Taylor Shakoigne. Lucas Heymen is head of audio and

1083
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: executive producer. Megan Armstrong is associate producer. Original music for

1084
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 2: Spolitics provided by Kyle Visz from wiz FX.