WEBVTT - Rupert Murdoch and Alternative Facts 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:05.160 Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.360 social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:15.080 Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Rupert Murdoch and alternative Facts. Right, 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.880 you can already guess where I'm coming down on this one. 0:00:18.160 --> 0:00:21.360 There are no such things as alternative facts. There are 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:25.880 alternative perspectives, of course, but facts are facts, despite whatever 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:28.920 spin Kellyan Conway tried to deploy during the Trump years. 0:00:29.360 --> 0:00:32.080 We can disagree about how to interpret facts, but there 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:37.120 they remain stubborn things. When stubborn people collide with stubborn things, 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:40.519 When the like of Rupert Murdoch assembles a media empire 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:45.040 largely designed to embrace and disseminate disinformation, you have the 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.400 makings of a Crash Course episode. Murdoch, the ninety two 0:00:48.479 --> 0:00:52.480 year old progenitor the Fox News Miasma, recently retired from 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:56.240 his perch atop Fox Corp and News Corp. Fox owns 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:00.360 various Fox media and broadcasting properties. News Corp. Pulls over 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.200 more straight arrow enterprises like a Wall Street Journal and HarperCollins, 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:07.520 as well as a handful of brass knuckle tabloids that 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:12.440 have cut swaths through new York, London and Sydney. But 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:16.160 Fox is likely to define Murdoch's legacy a legacy. Some 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.800 of his former executives now reject. Three of them jointly 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.240 noted in a recent public statement, and I quote we 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:27.600 never envisioned and would not knowingly have enabled, the disinformation 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:32.319 machine that, in our opinion, Fox has become. For his part, 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:38.040 Murdoch seems untroubled barrier mistakes, he likes to say. Joining 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.760 me today is Molly Jong Fast, a special correspondent for 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.440 Vanity Fair, a ubiquitous TV commentator, and the host of 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:49.200 the Fast Politics podcast. Molly is shrewd, candid and unspinnable. 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.160 We're going to talk about Murdoch, the media, and the 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:57.880 epic disinformation cyclones surrounding us. Howdy Molly, Hi, how are 0:01:57.960 --> 0:01:59.800 you ell? I'm glad to have you on. 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:02.000 Well, I'm glad to join you. 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.520 So the departure point for talking about Rupert Murdoch's career 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.000 and his legacy, I say, I have a hard time 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.000 believing that a noted hard worker and control freak like 0:02:13.080 --> 0:02:18.800 Rupert Murdoch, who assembled this giant empire of media assets 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.480 from scratch with a little help, you know, from an 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.960 Australian paper he inherited from his father, will just let 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:29.079 go of the reins and let young Lachlan run the show. 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.920 But maybe that's the case. We'll talk about that. But 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:34.799 I wanted to know just first and foremost, what is 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:40.600 Rupert Murdoch stepping down from his perch symbolized to you? 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:41.720 How do you think about that? 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:45.720 I mean, I think it's a fake. Say again, this 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:48.320 is the question here when you have people who are 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:53.320 bad faith actors, like the Murdochs and Donald Trump, and 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.639 you know, people where again and again they have told 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.960 you who they are. I want to believe them. So 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:04.720 I put very little steak in what Rupert Murdoch says publicly, 0:03:05.280 --> 0:03:08.160 and much more steak in whatever it is that he does. 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.800 And in this case, look this sort of death star, 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.800 the New York Posts, the Wall Street Journal, all Fox News. 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.440 I think Fox News is the most destructive of the trio. 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:23.680 But Fox News has got many other conservative media, you know, 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:30.600 the right side broadcasting. They've gone on American news, right streamers, Newsmax, 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:34.960 so they are no longer just one cancer. There's a 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:39.960 metastasis right in our American media ecosystem. So I would 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.160 say that I don't put much steak in what Rupert 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:44.320 says or what lock row. 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:48.920 Let's start with, why do you think Rupert's being disingenuous? 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.040 I mean, I have no reason to think one way 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.280 or the I mean, here's what I would say. I 0:03:55.320 --> 0:04:00.880 think life imitates art, and he will probably stay controlling 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:03.840 the company until he dies, as he did on the 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:10.880 HBO show Succession, which I know is not actually a biopic, 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.040 but more and more it does seem like, you. 0:04:12.960 --> 0:04:16.200 Know, Rupert's mother, I think she lived till she was 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.840 at least one hundred and twenty, but that might be 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.719 too high. It's definitely well north of one hundred. So 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.280 he could, you know, if the genes are at tel 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.640 Rupert could be with us, you know, for twenty more years. 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.360 I mean, I think what's relevant about Rupert Murdock stemming 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.320 down is that there is the acknowledgment here, there's the 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:39.159 tacit acknowledgment that someday he will die. And when he 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:40.360 does die, do you. 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.040 Think that's really the tacit acknowledgement He does because he thought, well, 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:44.480 I'm just going to send his segal out to the 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:45.880 world that I recognize my own more. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.520 Talent fatality at ninety two. I mean, you know, this 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:53.200 is not some like brave you know, shot across the 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.440 bow here. I mean, he's in his nineties. But I 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:59.320 would say this. I think that what is relevant about 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.920 this is that of eventually the kids are going to 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:06.000 have a fight because there are four kids, four voting kids, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.560 and only one of them is an actual fascist or 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:13.120 you know, we're not supposed to say fascist is fascist adjacent? 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.560 Or is fascist friendly? Okay, yeah, is fascist friendly? So 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.159 there's going to be a big fight and it'll be that, 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.640 I think is what is interesting. 0:05:23.200 --> 0:05:26.200 Just so our listeners know that the Murdock's exercise control 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.240 over their media empire through a trust, and the kiddies 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:32.599 each have an equal stake. Lockin's running the show has 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:33.680 one steak, but his. 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:38.760 Siblings Elizabeth and James, and there's one other one who's older. 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.440 Yeah, they all have their own say, and there appear 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:43.800 to be of a different political persuasion than Lachlan. Some 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:45.560 people anticipate a food fight. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.120 And then there are the younger kids who don't have 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:52.800 voting stakes, but who do have financial stakes. So I mean, eventually, 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.719 when he dies, there will be a real reckoning for 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.400 the station. But again, the thing about Fox, which I 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.239 think is import or to realize and was not true 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.680 in nineteen ninety six when it started, is that the 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.320 horse has already left the barn, right, like Pandora is 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:13.159 out of the box. Right. If Fox ends tomorrow, they're 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:18.040 still right side broadcasting. There's still Newsmax. There is such 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:19.800 little pushback to. 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.440 Some of the fact checking, fact checking and. 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:25.520 Pushback when they lie that they can get away with it. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.239 We'll talk more about the ecosystem that Murdoch has built, 0:06:29.320 --> 0:06:31.600 but it's worth pausing for a moment to think about 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.960 how we got here, which is he rode test at 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.880 all of this overseas. Yeah, first in Australia and then 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.440 on Fleet Street, and then he came to America and 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.760 owned a succession of papers that he went to school on. 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:47.600 Originally the Village Voice, He had New York Magazine. At 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:49.840 one point he ended up with the New York Post, 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.560 then he famously got the Wall Street Journal. Over a 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:57.799 period of decades. But Fox was the sort of realization 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:01.039 of some of the lessons he and overseas. Right. 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:05.960 Yeah, I mean, I think look, propaganda works, right, and 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.680 what we saw with the Dominion case, which I think 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:15.200 is really an important moment in American media studies. 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:17.600 Right is here, But I want to wait. I want 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:19.640 to wait to get to this case. I just want 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.120 to talk a little bit for a minute about the 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.160 phenomenon of thoughts itself long before dominion came along. You know, 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.800 he built this network under Roger Ales that had a 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.720 combination of a news arm and commentators. But the real 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:36.360 mojo for the network where it's commentators. They tracked in 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:42.960 conspiracy theories, seth Rich, birtherism, you know, the January sixth uprising, 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:47.240 alternative viewpoints about what that meant over a period of decades. 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:49.680 Why do you think that got traction? 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.840 Why do I think it got traction? I think Look, 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.760 tabloids have a long and storied history in America and 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:01.680 Great Britain, and people like to read trash. I mean 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:03.920 that is like, I feel like that is one of 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:08.600 our basest instincts. And for a long time politicians in 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.440 America at least had a sort of code and honor code. Right, 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.239 so you know you would have a decorum, right, there'd 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.120 be Senate decorum and you still have it. It's interesting 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.320 you still have a disconnect between the Senate and the House, 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.960 right the House is significantly. People are much sleazier to 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:24.680 each other in the House and they're in the Senate. 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.600 Right in the Senate because you kind of it's a 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:30.920 little bit more clubby, which can also be problematic sometimes. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:35.400 But I think people liked that there was this kind 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:39.680 of tabloidiness of it, and I think all right, And 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.600 I also think that like one of the reasons why 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:47.559 this propaganda has really grown is because there are really 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:51.559 racist people in this country who see that they demographically 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:55.439 can't beat it, right, they can't win, right, they are 0:08:55.480 --> 0:09:00.280 not having babies fast enough to keep this country white. 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.400 And the racism the underlying I'm not even going to 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:06.920 say it's anxiety, because I don't think you should give 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.960 them the benefit of the doubt. The racism, the sort 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:14.280 of American racism which has I think long been an 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:19.600 undercurrent in life in America for centuries. Yeah, really got 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.359 all flared up with this when they started to understand 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.200 this demographic change and then also when they started to 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.240 feel that they could not keep up the standards of 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:31.760 living that their parents had. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.480 I mean, yeah, I mean, but that's anxiety as opposed 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:37.600 to racism. You know, the idea that you can't keep 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.640 up your living standards. I'm not denying that they're obviously 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:42.920 racism and sent some of this as well, right, but 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.440 it is informed by a number of factors, and I 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.559 do think economic anxiety is one of them, right. 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.560 But I also think the deep undercurrent, Right, you don't 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.160 get to Obama's birth certificate unless you're a racist, right, 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.480 you don't, because otherwise that's not insecurity about your job. 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:05.480 That's the belief that this man can possibly be one 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:07.400 of OZ because he's black. 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.640 And I think that Birtherism and Obama is a signal 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.680 moment because it involves so many things. Obama was presiding 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:16.880 of an administration that was dealing with the fallout of 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.760 a financial crisis, right, people feeling economically insecure. He was 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:24.160 black in a nation in which, you know, as you noted, 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:28.120 the demographics were working against white people. And he was 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:33.000 being pillaried in a media ecosystem that could make conspiracy 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.920 theories go viral and a way they hadn't before. And 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:37.360 I think one of the things to think about with 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.800 Fox and its evolution is they put their finger on 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:44.360 sort of this issue of discontent. When Roger Ales first 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.160 started the idea that there was this silent majority that 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.840 wasn't being heard from on the major networks, and they 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.160 sort of took baby steps. When you look back into 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:55.080 it now, you know, sort of soft conspiracy theories. The 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.760 institutions are against you, but they weren't wholesale trafficking initially 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:05.480 in propaganda, racism and disinformation. And with each passing decade 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.360 it became more and more severe. And I do think 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.480 of the Birtherrism moment as when the floodgates began to 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.720 open and led right into the shoes of Donald Trump. 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.640 Yeah, for sure, and Trump was part of it, right. 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.160 This is like the Tea Party, you know, the Tea 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:27.520 Party is this sort of rage towards institutions for not 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.560 delivering what you want. And then you've got from there 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:36.120 Birtherrism and the beginning of Donald Trump. I mean, hell 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:39.280 has no fury like a white man told he might 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.040 have to be the same as everyone else. 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:46.080 You know, Murdoch is clearly a newsman in the old 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:50.120 fashioned sense of it. He's liked newsrooms, he's liked reporters, 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.319 he's owned properties that do do quote unquote straight news reporting. 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:58.760 But he also knows what he's unleashed on the other 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:03.360 side of that ledger, which is again propaganda disinformation, playing 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.079 people's worst emotions. I think I know the answer to 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.360 this one, but I always like hearing other people's thoughts 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:13.359 on it. Why do you think he likes to luxuriate 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:19.040 in the cesspool while also funding old fashioned news gathering. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.520 So I actually think that there was a moment, or 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.320 at least two moments that I can think of, where 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.680 Murdoch tried to pump the brakes on Fox and it 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:35.160 was too late, and so instead of stopping the propaganda, 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:39.000 they lost market share. I think at some point he 0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:43.680 realized that he was no longer driving the bus off 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.800 the cliff, that the bus was going on autopilot off 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.720 the cliff. Now I still don't think he gets any 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.400 credit for that, but I do think he's savvy enough 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.439 to know that at this point the monster he has 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:57.440 no control anymore. 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:58.960 So what are the two moments? 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:06.319 Moment is first, when Trump starts to get the nomination, 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.440 sometime between twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, he realizes that 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.360 this guy's going to be the nominee, he doesn't want 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.360 it and there's nothing he can do right. And then 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.000 he's going to win. And then after January sixth, they 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:21.120 all said like, we're going to stop doing this, and 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.480 they couldn't because they saw their numbers go down. I mean, 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.040 count is not really the right word, and they didn't. 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:29.400 But I think that's the other moment. 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.600 And so you're saying that he luxuriated in the cesspool 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.240 because he had created an unstoppable machine, not because he 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:39.199 liked rubbing it all over his arms and legs. 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:42.360 I think he wants money. I think all he cares 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.760 about is money, and I think that this was the 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.640 winning formula and by the time that door was open, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.560 he just was like, you know, look, this is an 0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.640 incredibly competitive business, and I think this guy cares more 0:13:56.679 --> 0:14:00.600 about winning than about like American democracy. I don't think 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.040 Ripper Murdoch wakes up in the morning and is like, oh, 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.560 I might be ruining America's democracy. I think he's like, 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:07.440 the numbers are good, the numbers are bad. 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.920 And famously he's used his media holdings to flex It 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:12.920 gives him enormous way in the business world, it gives 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.480 them enormous way in the political world. 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:17.640 You want to win. You don't get to be a 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.120 billionaire like that. Unless you just don't And I curse, 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:24.240 now I can't curse. You don't care about anything but winning. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:27.480 And you know, famously he even had editors who went 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.800 around wire tapping people. Whether the extent to which Rupert 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:33.840 knew about that or didn't was debated in a courtroom. 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.640 But he did establish a culture of very brass knuckled 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:43.680 approach to digging into people's business and sort of threatening 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:45.480 enemies perceived or actual. 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.600 Yeah, no, of course, I mean the guy is that, 0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.400 you know, we don't spend enough time I say this 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.360 as someone who grew up very not wealthy myself, but 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:56.120 in a place where I was exposed to a lot 0:14:56.120 --> 0:14:58.040 of wealthy people. We don't spend enough time talking about 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:05.120 the kind of extreme I want to say, ambition and 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.440 lack of compassion. One must have to make billions of dollars. 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.080 And so I think it's fair to say that billionaires 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.360 are not like you and I that. 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.520 They offer although I would say I do know compassionate billionaires, right, 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.360 and I do know billionaires who have high standards. And 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:27.239 I think that Rupert is an unusual amalgam of low standards, 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:32.800 no standards, variable standards, professed high standards and it would 0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.080 seem a almost complete lack of compassion. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:40.840 Yeah, I mean right, and he also in his mind whatever. 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.200 We can't know what's in his mind, but the pure 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:46.080 ambition does not lend itself to compassion. 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:49.120 On that note, I'm going to take a break so 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:51.280 we can hear from our sponsor and we'll come right back. 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.840 We're back with Molly John Fast, Vanity fair scribe. We're 0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:02.720 just talking about the arc in a very brief, compressed 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.920 way of Rupert Murdoch's career. He's handed the reins off 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.720 to his sons. One thing I just want to touch 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.000 back on is this idea of what changed in the 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:18.080 propagandic ecosystem in the sort of seventies, eighties, nineties up 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.040 to the notts and now because I think of you know, 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:25.600 past events where people's jaw dropped the Willie Horton ad. 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.680 You know, when Michael Ducaccus was running for president, Fox 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:36.000 calling Florida early for George W. Bush when the final 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.680 vote tally in his race against Al Gore was still 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:42.480 being calculated. Those sorts of things at the time were 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:47.600 much debated and seen as sort of grotesque manifestations of 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:53.440 hardball politics and a kind of unreltting news environment. But 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:56.680 none of it really seems again to me to be 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.240 on the same par with what began when Barack Obama 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:04.600 became president. Even the Clintons. I think the Clintons would complain, 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.720 as Hillary did, you know, vast right wing conspiracy. I 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.879 don't even think the Clintons were really exposed to the 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.760 same kinds of things that Barack Obama was. And so 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:19.320 I do see Obama the Obama presidency assist departure point 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:22.240 along with the rise of social media and then the 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:25.480 advent of Donald Trump. We talked a little bit earlier 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:27.840 about that demarcation, but I want to talk about it 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:29.480 a little bit more now in terms of how you 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:30.080 think about that. 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.480 Yeah, I mean, look, social media. I think social media 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.720 is amazing and good because I came of age I 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.600 started writing in the nineties, and there were just so 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.439 many gatekeepers, right. You'd write a piece for Vogue, and 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:47.520 maybe it would go up, and maybe it would get 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.600 thrown out. You know, you'd pitch the editorial page of 0:17:51.760 --> 0:17:55.560 the New York Post. You know, there were just gatekeeper 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.480 after gatekeeper after gatekeeper, and I think that was the 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:02.760 way it was, but it would sometimes cause really interesting 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:06.040 voices to not be able to break through. And so 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.920 what I do think is really cool about social media 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.560 is that you do have people like I was watching 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.600 this TikTok the other day of this amazing guy who's 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:18.960 like a brilliant pundit who there is no way you 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.199 would ever have heard of this person was it not 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.560 for TikTok? And I am just delighted by it every day. Unfortunately, 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.560 you know, I think that I really do look at 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.320 Congress as this sort of biggest screen. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.040 I mean, I think it's putting the car before the 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.359 horse to go to Congress. So I agree with you, well, 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:36.160 I mean, go ahead. 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.760 Things were not regulated properly in the beginning because people 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:43.960 didn't understand it, and so you know, content was kind 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.800 of given away for free and then all of a sudden, 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:48.800 and again I blame I was going to say, equal 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.120 parts Congress and media companies for not being able to 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.040 see what was coming, and then all of a sudden 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.040 we all had to backpedal and say, like, you like 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:01.439 our free content, now will you willing to pay forty 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:02.560 bucks a year for it? 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.159 On top of that, very smart analysis as well is 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:10.960 that we have conflicted feelings about the idea of gatekeepers. 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.720 As you've pointed out gatekeepers especially in the you know, 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.879 the classic big metro newspaper era, three network era, it 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.760 was largely white men. It became privileged white men who 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.199 stood atop those various institutions, and it meant that diverse 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.280 few points didn't come into the newsroom. It meant that 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:31.000 a variety of subjects didn't get covered, and meant that 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:34.760 talented people like you in a previous era wouldn't have 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.199 gotten a shot. So social broke apart that kind of 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:42.240 media monopoly on the intellectual and creative side. And I 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:43.720 think that's important and worthy. 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:45.960 On the other hand, to pause you for a second, 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:49.240 because like, I come from a family of like I'm 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.639 a NEPO. I don't want to say baby, but NEPO 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.919 middle aged. So let's not cry for me, Argentina. 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.720 Here should we tell the audience about your elements? 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:01.320 You know, my mom was writer, my grandfather was a writer, 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.720 or they're both day No, my mother is still alive. Sorry, 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.040 sorry mom, Sorry mom, But I'm just saying I don't 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.480 know that. I think I was quite lucky by being 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:12.680 born where I was born, But I dot. 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:14.680 You're also being modest. Now you also have your own 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:17.399 collection of talents, right that had to get discovered in 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:18.240 a specific way. 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:20.600 But I do think that you know, there are a 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.320 lot of people for whom the you know, social media 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.920 has been in Sorry, go on, So yes, I didn't 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:27.280 mean to interrupetw No, No, it's. 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.480 All good, and I agree with that. I also think 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.600 there is a positive side to gatekeeping m HM, which 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:34.639 is being a screen for value. Now, if it's just 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:36.359 a limited number of people with their hands on the 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.720 gate then what you're screening for has very narrow parameters. 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:46.280 But if you also are concerned that propaganda, racism, right, 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:49.880 negative aspects of how we communicate or live or act 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.119 in the world shouldn't just be plastered all over people's 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:55.359 eyeballs twenty four to seven or pumped into their ears 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:57.920 twenty four to seven, or put in their papers twenty 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.480 four to seven, gatekeepers play and important. That's true, and 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.480 that is where social media has completely dropped the ball, 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:08.000 and they've lived under this. I think canard that, well, 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:11.680 we're technology platforms. We had Facebook and Twitter and TikTok 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.639 are just technology platforms and we are just here to 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:18.679 let everything blossom and we can't play any role in 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.119 telling people to go the other way right, and that 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:25.679 has been lost. Along with the privilege that disappeared. The 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:29.480 gatekeeping role has really been, I think disastrously watered down. 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:31.920 Yes, I agree, and I. 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:35.040 Think there's a certain longing people now have for clarity 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:39.480 around facts. Where do facts reside? Who assesses them? Can 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:43.880 media be a vehicle for actually finding commonality having civic discussions. 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.320 I think it's very hard right now, and I'm not 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:49.760 optimistic about it, But I was wondering if you are 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:50.880 optimistic about. 0:21:50.680 --> 0:21:53.920 It about facts coming back? 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.560 So yeah, about the ability to have narratives that people 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.959 can consider dispassionately, with an eye towards problem solving, as 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.600 opposed to mudslinging, with an eye towards creating good policy, 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.800 as opposed to saying policy doesn't exist, with an eye 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.360 towards communicating better because we're a diverse community, as opposed 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:14.720 to using it to create for their divisions. You know, 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.600 the proactive positive side of media. 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:23.959 I mean again, media reflects the culture, right, so you know, 0:22:24.040 --> 0:22:26.879 we could like sit down and talk about the people 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:28.760 on the opinion side at the New York Times or 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:30.840 at the Washington Post or at the Wall Street Journal. 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.399 But I actually think when I think about that question, 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:37.000 I think of, like I do a podcast too, where 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.800 I interview nine guests a week and I talk to 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:43.679 a lot of politicians, and like, I don't think media 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.879 solves its problems itself, but there are some pretty exciting 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:53.240