1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course Rupert Murdoch and alternative Facts. Right, 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: you can already guess where I'm coming down on this one. 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: There are no such things as alternative facts. There are 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: alternative perspectives, of course, but facts are facts, despite whatever 7 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: spin Kellyan Conway tried to deploy during the Trump years. 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: We can disagree about how to interpret facts, but there 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: they remain stubborn things. When stubborn people collide with stubborn things, 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: When the like of Rupert Murdoch assembles a media empire 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: largely designed to embrace and disseminate disinformation, you have the 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: makings of a Crash Course episode. Murdoch, the ninety two 13 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 1: year old progenitor the Fox News Miasma, recently retired from 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: his perch atop Fox Corp and News Corp. Fox owns 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: various Fox media and broadcasting properties. News Corp. Pulls over 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: more straight arrow enterprises like a Wall Street Journal and HarperCollins, 17 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: as well as a handful of brass knuckle tabloids that 18 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: have cut swaths through new York, London and Sydney. But 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: Fox is likely to define Murdoch's legacy a legacy. Some 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: of his former executives now reject. Three of them jointly 21 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: noted in a recent public statement, and I quote we 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: never envisioned and would not knowingly have enabled, the disinformation 23 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: machine that, in our opinion, Fox has become. For his part, 24 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 1: Murdoch seems untroubled barrier mistakes, he likes to say. Joining 25 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: me today is Molly Jong Fast, a special correspondent for 26 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair, a ubiquitous TV commentator, and the host of 27 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: the Fast Politics podcast. Molly is shrewd, candid and unspinnable. 28 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about Murdoch, the media, and the 29 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: epic disinformation cyclones surrounding us. Howdy Molly, Hi, how are 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: you ell? I'm glad to have you on. 31 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad to join you. 32 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: So the departure point for talking about Rupert Murdoch's career 33 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: and his legacy, I say, I have a hard time 34 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: believing that a noted hard worker and control freak like 35 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch, who assembled this giant empire of media assets 36 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: from scratch with a little help, you know, from an 37 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: Australian paper he inherited from his father, will just let 38 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: go of the reins and let young Lachlan run the show. 39 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: But maybe that's the case. We'll talk about that. But 40 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: I wanted to know just first and foremost, what is 41 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch stepping down from his perch symbolized to you? 42 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: How do you think about that? 43 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a fake. Say again, this 44 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: is the question here when you have people who are 45 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: bad faith actors, like the Murdochs and Donald Trump, and 46 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 2: you know, people where again and again they have told 47 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: you who they are. I want to believe them. So 48 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: I put very little steak in what Rupert Murdoch says publicly, 49 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: and much more steak in whatever it is that he does. 50 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: And in this case, look this sort of death star, 51 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: the New York Posts, the Wall Street Journal, all Fox News. 52 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 2: I think Fox News is the most destructive of the trio. 53 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 2: But Fox News has got many other conservative media, you know, 54 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: the right side broadcasting. They've gone on American news, right streamers, Newsmax, 55 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: so they are no longer just one cancer. There's a 56 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: metastasis right in our American media ecosystem. So I would 57 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: say that I don't put much steak in what Rupert 58 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 2: says or what lock row. 59 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: Let's start with, why do you think Rupert's being disingenuous? 60 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I have no reason to think one way 61 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: or the I mean, here's what I would say. I 62 00:03:55,320 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: think life imitates art, and he will probably stay controlling 63 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 2: the company until he dies, as he did on the 64 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: HBO show Succession, which I know is not actually a biopic, 65 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 2: but more and more it does seem like, you. 66 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: Know, Rupert's mother, I think she lived till she was 67 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: at least one hundred and twenty, but that might be 68 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: too high. It's definitely well north of one hundred. So 69 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,280 Speaker 1: he could, you know, if the genes are at tel 70 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: Rupert could be with us, you know, for twenty more years. 71 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 2: I mean, I think what's relevant about Rupert Murdock stemming 72 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: down is that there is the acknowledgment here, there's the 73 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 2: tacit acknowledgment that someday he will die. And when he 74 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: does die, do you. 75 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: Think that's really the tacit acknowledgement He does because he thought, well, 76 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,480 Speaker 1: I'm just going to send his segal out to the 77 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: world that I recognize my own more. 78 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 2: Talent fatality at ninety two. I mean, you know, this 79 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 2: is not some like brave you know, shot across the 80 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 2: bow here. I mean, he's in his nineties. But I 81 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: would say this. I think that what is relevant about 82 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: this is that of eventually the kids are going to 83 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: have a fight because there are four kids, four voting kids, 84 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: and only one of them is an actual fascist or 85 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: you know, we're not supposed to say fascist is fascist adjacent? 86 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: Or is fascist friendly? Okay, yeah, is fascist friendly? So 87 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: there's going to be a big fight and it'll be that, 88 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: I think is what is interesting. 89 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: Just so our listeners know that the Murdock's exercise control 90 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: over their media empire through a trust, and the kiddies 91 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: each have an equal stake. Lockin's running the show has 92 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: one steak, but his. 93 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: Siblings Elizabeth and James, and there's one other one who's older. 94 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, they all have their own say, and there appear 95 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: to be of a different political persuasion than Lachlan. Some 96 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: people anticipate a food fight. 97 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: And then there are the younger kids who don't have 98 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: voting stakes, but who do have financial stakes. So I mean, eventually, 99 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 2: when he dies, there will be a real reckoning for 100 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: the station. But again, the thing about Fox, which I 101 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 2: think is import or to realize and was not true 102 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety six when it started, is that the 103 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 2: horse has already left the barn, right, like Pandora is 104 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 2: out of the box. Right. If Fox ends tomorrow, they're 105 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 2: still right side broadcasting. There's still Newsmax. There is such 106 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 2: little pushback to. 107 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: Some of the fact checking, fact checking and. 108 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: Pushback when they lie that they can get away with it. 109 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,239 Speaker 1: We'll talk more about the ecosystem that Murdoch has built, 110 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: but it's worth pausing for a moment to think about 111 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: how we got here, which is he rode test at 112 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: all of this overseas. Yeah, first in Australia and then 113 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: on Fleet Street, and then he came to America and 114 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: owned a succession of papers that he went to school on. 115 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 1: Originally the Village Voice, He had New York Magazine. At 116 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: one point he ended up with the New York Post, 117 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: then he famously got the Wall Street Journal. Over a 118 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:57,799 Speaker 1: period of decades. But Fox was the sort of realization 119 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: of some of the lessons he and overseas. Right. 120 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think look, propaganda works, right, and 121 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: what we saw with the Dominion case, which I think 122 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 2: is really an important moment in American media studies. 123 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: Right is here, But I want to wait. I want 124 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: to wait to get to this case. I just want 125 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit for a minute about the 126 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: phenomenon of thoughts itself long before dominion came along. You know, 127 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: he built this network under Roger Ales that had a 128 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: combination of a news arm and commentators. But the real 129 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: mojo for the network where it's commentators. They tracked in 130 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, seth Rich, birtherism, you know, the January sixth uprising, 131 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: alternative viewpoints about what that meant over a period of decades. 132 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: Why do you think that got traction? 133 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: Why do I think it got traction? I think Look, 134 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: tabloids have a long and storied history in America and 135 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: Great Britain, and people like to read trash. I mean 136 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: that is like, I feel like that is one of 137 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 2: our basest instincts. And for a long time politicians in 138 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: America at least had a sort of code and honor code. Right, 139 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 2: so you know you would have a decorum, right, there'd 140 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: be Senate decorum and you still have it. It's interesting 141 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 2: you still have a disconnect between the Senate and the House, 142 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: right the House is significantly. People are much sleazier to 143 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 2: each other in the House and they're in the Senate. 144 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 2: Right in the Senate because you kind of it's a 145 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: little bit more clubby, which can also be problematic sometimes. 146 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: But I think people liked that there was this kind 147 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:39,680 Speaker 2: of tabloidiness of it, and I think all right, And 148 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 2: I also think that like one of the reasons why 149 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 2: this propaganda has really grown is because there are really 150 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 2: racist people in this country who see that they demographically 151 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,439 Speaker 2: can't beat it, right, they can't win, right, they are 152 00:08:55,480 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: not having babies fast enough to keep this country white. 153 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: And the racism the underlying I'm not even going to 154 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: say it's anxiety, because I don't think you should give 155 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 2: them the benefit of the doubt. The racism, the sort 156 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: of American racism which has I think long been an 157 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: undercurrent in life in America for centuries. Yeah, really got 158 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,359 Speaker 2: all flared up with this when they started to understand 159 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: this demographic change and then also when they started to 160 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: feel that they could not keep up the standards of 161 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: living that their parents had. 162 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I mean, but that's anxiety as opposed 163 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: to racism. You know, the idea that you can't keep 164 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: up your living standards. I'm not denying that they're obviously 165 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: racism and sent some of this as well, right, but 166 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: it is informed by a number of factors, and I 167 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: do think economic anxiety is one of them, right. 168 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 2: But I also think the deep undercurrent, Right, you don't 169 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 2: get to Obama's birth certificate unless you're a racist, right, 170 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 2: you don't, because otherwise that's not insecurity about your job. 171 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: That's the belief that this man can possibly be one 172 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: of OZ because he's black. 173 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: And I think that Birtherism and Obama is a signal 174 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: moment because it involves so many things. Obama was presiding 175 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: of an administration that was dealing with the fallout of 176 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: a financial crisis, right, people feeling economically insecure. He was 177 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: black in a nation in which, you know, as you noted, 178 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: the demographics were working against white people. And he was 179 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: being pillaried in a media ecosystem that could make conspiracy 180 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: theories go viral and a way they hadn't before. And 181 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: I think one of the things to think about with 182 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: Fox and its evolution is they put their finger on 183 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: sort of this issue of discontent. When Roger Ales first 184 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: started the idea that there was this silent majority that 185 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: wasn't being heard from on the major networks, and they 186 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: sort of took baby steps. When you look back into 187 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: it now, you know, sort of soft conspiracy theories. The 188 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: institutions are against you, but they weren't wholesale trafficking initially 189 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: in propaganda, racism and disinformation. And with each passing decade 190 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: it became more and more severe. And I do think 191 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: of the Birtherrism moment as when the floodgates began to 192 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: open and led right into the shoes of Donald Trump. 193 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, and Trump was part of it, right. 194 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: This is like the Tea Party, you know, the Tea 195 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: Party is this sort of rage towards institutions for not 196 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 2: delivering what you want. And then you've got from there 197 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 2: Birtherrism and the beginning of Donald Trump. I mean, hell 198 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: has no fury like a white man told he might 199 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 2: have to be the same as everyone else. 200 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: You know, Murdoch is clearly a newsman in the old 201 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: fashioned sense of it. He's liked newsrooms, he's liked reporters, 202 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: he's owned properties that do do quote unquote straight news reporting. 203 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: But he also knows what he's unleashed on the other 204 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: side of that ledger, which is again propaganda disinformation, playing 205 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: people's worst emotions. I think I know the answer to 206 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: this one, but I always like hearing other people's thoughts 207 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,359 Speaker 1: on it. Why do you think he likes to luxuriate 208 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: in the cesspool while also funding old fashioned news gathering. 209 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: So I actually think that there was a moment, or 210 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 2: at least two moments that I can think of, where 211 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,680 Speaker 2: Murdoch tried to pump the brakes on Fox and it 212 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: was too late, and so instead of stopping the propaganda, 213 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: they lost market share. I think at some point he 214 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 2: realized that he was no longer driving the bus off 215 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 2: the cliff, that the bus was going on autopilot off 216 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: the cliff. Now I still don't think he gets any 217 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: credit for that, but I do think he's savvy enough 218 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 2: to know that at this point the monster he has 219 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: no control anymore. 220 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: So what are the two moments? 221 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:06,319 Speaker 2: Moment is first, when Trump starts to get the nomination, 222 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 2: sometime between twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen, he realizes that 223 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: this guy's going to be the nominee, he doesn't want 224 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: it and there's nothing he can do right. And then 225 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 2: he's going to win. And then after January sixth, they 226 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: all said like, we're going to stop doing this, and 227 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: they couldn't because they saw their numbers go down. I mean, 228 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 2: count is not really the right word, and they didn't. 229 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: But I think that's the other moment. 230 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: And so you're saying that he luxuriated in the cesspool 231 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: because he had created an unstoppable machine, not because he 232 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,199 Speaker 1: liked rubbing it all over his arms and legs. 233 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: I think he wants money. I think all he cares 234 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 2: about is money, and I think that this was the 235 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: winning formula and by the time that door was open, 236 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: he just was like, you know, look, this is an 237 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: incredibly competitive business, and I think this guy cares more 238 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 2: about winning than about like American democracy. I don't think 239 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: Ripper Murdoch wakes up in the morning and is like, oh, 240 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 2: I might be ruining America's democracy. I think he's like, 241 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 2: the numbers are good, the numbers are bad. 242 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: And famously he's used his media holdings to flex It 243 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: gives him enormous way in the business world, it gives 244 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: them enormous way in the political world. 245 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 2: You want to win. You don't get to be a 246 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: billionaire like that. Unless you just don't And I curse, 247 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: now I can't curse. You don't care about anything but winning. 248 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: And you know, famously he even had editors who went 249 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: around wire tapping people. Whether the extent to which Rupert 250 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: knew about that or didn't was debated in a courtroom. 251 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: But he did establish a culture of very brass knuckled 252 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: approach to digging into people's business and sort of threatening 253 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: enemies perceived or actual. 254 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, of course, I mean the guy is that, 255 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: you know, we don't spend enough time I say this 256 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: as someone who grew up very not wealthy myself, but 257 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: in a place where I was exposed to a lot 258 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: of wealthy people. We don't spend enough time talking about 259 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: the kind of extreme I want to say, ambition and 260 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: lack of compassion. One must have to make billions of dollars. 261 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 2: And so I think it's fair to say that billionaires 262 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: are not like you and I that. 263 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: They offer although I would say I do know compassionate billionaires, right, 264 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: and I do know billionaires who have high standards. And 265 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:27,239 Speaker 1: I think that Rupert is an unusual amalgam of low standards, 266 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: no standards, variable standards, professed high standards and it would 267 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: seem a almost complete lack of compassion. 268 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean right, and he also in his mind whatever. 269 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: We can't know what's in his mind, but the pure 270 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: ambition does not lend itself to compassion. 271 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: On that note, I'm going to take a break so 272 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: we can hear from our sponsor and we'll come right back. 273 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: We're back with Molly John Fast, Vanity fair scribe. We're 274 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: just talking about the arc in a very brief, compressed 275 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: way of Rupert Murdoch's career. He's handed the reins off 276 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: to his sons. One thing I just want to touch 277 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: back on is this idea of what changed in the 278 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: propagandic ecosystem in the sort of seventies, eighties, nineties up 279 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: to the notts and now because I think of you know, 280 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: past events where people's jaw dropped the Willie Horton ad. 281 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: You know, when Michael Ducaccus was running for president, Fox 282 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: calling Florida early for George W. Bush when the final 283 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: vote tally in his race against Al Gore was still 284 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: being calculated. Those sorts of things at the time were 285 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: much debated and seen as sort of grotesque manifestations of 286 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: hardball politics and a kind of unreltting news environment. But 287 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: none of it really seems again to me to be 288 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: on the same par with what began when Barack Obama 289 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: became president. Even the Clintons. I think the Clintons would complain, 290 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: as Hillary did, you know, vast right wing conspiracy. I 291 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: don't even think the Clintons were really exposed to the 292 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: same kinds of things that Barack Obama was. And so 293 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: I do see Obama the Obama presidency assist departure point 294 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 1: along with the rise of social media and then the 295 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: advent of Donald Trump. We talked a little bit earlier 296 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: about that demarcation, but I want to talk about it 297 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more now in terms of how you 298 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: think about that. 299 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, social media. I think social media 300 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: is amazing and good because I came of age I 301 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: started writing in the nineties, and there were just so 302 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 2: many gatekeepers, right. You'd write a piece for Vogue, and 303 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: maybe it would go up, and maybe it would get 304 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 2: thrown out. You know, you'd pitch the editorial page of 305 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 2: the New York Post. You know, there were just gatekeeper 306 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 2: after gatekeeper after gatekeeper, and I think that was the 307 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: way it was, but it would sometimes cause really interesting 308 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 2: voices to not be able to break through. And so 309 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,920 Speaker 2: what I do think is really cool about social media 310 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 2: is that you do have people like I was watching 311 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 2: this TikTok the other day of this amazing guy who's 312 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: like a brilliant pundit who there is no way you 313 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 2: would ever have heard of this person was it not 314 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: for TikTok? And I am just delighted by it every day. Unfortunately, 315 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 2: you know, I think that I really do look at 316 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: Congress as this sort of biggest screen. 317 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's putting the car before the 318 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: horse to go to Congress. So I agree with you, well, 319 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 1: I mean, go ahead. 320 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: Things were not regulated properly in the beginning because people 321 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 2: didn't understand it, and so you know, content was kind 322 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 2: of given away for free and then all of a sudden, 323 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 2: and again I blame I was going to say, equal 324 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,120 Speaker 2: parts Congress and media companies for not being able to 325 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: see what was coming, and then all of a sudden 326 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: we all had to backpedal and say, like, you like 327 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 2: our free content, now will you willing to pay forty 328 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 2: bucks a year for it? 329 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: On top of that, very smart analysis as well is 330 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: that we have conflicted feelings about the idea of gatekeepers. 331 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: As you've pointed out gatekeepers especially in the you know, 332 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: the classic big metro newspaper era, three network era, it 333 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: was largely white men. It became privileged white men who 334 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: stood atop those various institutions, and it meant that diverse 335 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: few points didn't come into the newsroom. It meant that 336 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: a variety of subjects didn't get covered, and meant that 337 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: talented people like you in a previous era wouldn't have 338 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:38,199 Speaker 1: gotten a shot. So social broke apart that kind of 339 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: media monopoly on the intellectual and creative side. And I 340 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: think that's important and worthy. 341 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 2: On the other hand, to pause you for a second, 342 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: because like, I come from a family of like I'm 343 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 2: a NEPO. I don't want to say baby, but NEPO 344 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 2: middle aged. So let's not cry for me, Argentina. 345 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: Here should we tell the audience about your elements? 346 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: You know, my mom was writer, my grandfather was a writer, 347 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 2: or they're both day No, my mother is still alive. Sorry, 348 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: sorry mom, Sorry mom, But I'm just saying I don't 349 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 2: know that. I think I was quite lucky by being 350 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: born where I was born, But I dot. 351 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: You're also being modest. Now you also have your own 352 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: collection of talents, right that had to get discovered in 353 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: a specific way. 354 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 2: But I do think that you know, there are a 355 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: lot of people for whom the you know, social media 356 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 2: has been in Sorry, go on, So yes, I didn't 357 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: mean to interrupetw No, No, it's. 358 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: All good, and I agree with that. I also think 359 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: there is a positive side to gatekeeping m HM, which 360 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: is being a screen for value. Now, if it's just 361 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: a limited number of people with their hands on the 362 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: gate then what you're screening for has very narrow parameters. 363 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:46,280 Speaker 1: But if you also are concerned that propaganda, racism, right, 364 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: negative aspects of how we communicate or live or act 365 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: in the world shouldn't just be plastered all over people's 366 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 1: eyeballs twenty four to seven or pumped into their ears 367 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: twenty four to seven, or put in their papers twenty 368 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: four to seven, gatekeepers play and important. That's true, and 369 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: that is where social media has completely dropped the ball, 370 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: and they've lived under this. I think canard that, well, 371 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 1: we're technology platforms. We had Facebook and Twitter and TikTok 372 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: are just technology platforms and we are just here to 373 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,679 Speaker 1: let everything blossom and we can't play any role in 374 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: telling people to go the other way right, and that 375 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: has been lost. Along with the privilege that disappeared. The 376 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: gatekeeping role has really been, I think disastrously watered down. 377 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, and I. 378 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 1: Think there's a certain longing people now have for clarity 379 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: around facts. Where do facts reside? Who assesses them? Can 380 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: media be a vehicle for actually finding commonality having civic discussions. 381 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: I think it's very hard right now, and I'm not 382 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: optimistic about it, But I was wondering if you are 383 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: optimistic about. 384 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 2: It about facts coming back? 385 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, about the ability to have narratives that people 386 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 1: can consider dispassionately, with an eye towards problem solving, as 387 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: opposed to mudslinging, with an eye towards creating good policy, 388 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: as opposed to saying policy doesn't exist, with an eye 389 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: towards communicating better because we're a diverse community, as opposed 390 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: to using it to create for their divisions. You know, 391 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: the proactive positive side of media. 392 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 2: I mean again, media reflects the culture, right, so you know, 393 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 2: we could like sit down and talk about the people 394 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 2: on the opinion side at the New York Times or 395 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: at the Washington Post or at the Wall Street Journal. 396 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: But I actually think when I think about that question, 397 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: I think of, like I do a podcast too, where 398 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: I interview nine guests a week and I talk to 399 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 2: a lot of politicians, and like, I don't think media 400 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 2: solves its problems itself, but there are some pretty exciting 401 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 2: you know, I interviewed Congresswoman Summer Lee, who I've interviewed before, 402 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: and she was talking about you know, she had a 403 00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 2: statement that Menendez needs to resign. Robert Menendez, demo from 404 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: New Jersey, who is. 405 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: Face with lots of gold bars. 406 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: He's facing his second set of indictments. Gold bars, Mercedes 407 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 2: is half of that. 408 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: Stuff in pockets. 409 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, but she had said, you know, we're not going 410 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 2: to we have no moral high ground if we don't 411 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 2: take it, and we cannot be the party that tells 412 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 2: Clarence Thomas he has to resign after going to two 413 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 2: different Koch Brothers summits. If we have a senator who's 414 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 2: googling how much can you sell a gold bar for? 415 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: Well, that's a high minded thought, and I don't disagree 416 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: with you. I think there's a moral thing there that 417 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: you're airing on the podcast. There's a point being driven towards. 418 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,479 Speaker 1: But I'm talking about sort of the broader world we 419 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: live in right now, when people are surrounded, particularly via 420 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: social by raw propaganda and disinformation, and not by strong 421 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: conversations about a moral way to be a senator or 422 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 1: what is and isn't breaking the law. I'm worried about 423 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: the broader world that in right now. 424 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 2: I mean, again, with this disinformation, misinformation, the propaganda stuff. 425 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: I worry about it, and I would love Congress to 426 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 2: do more legislating on it, and they have an opportunity 427 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: to which they have continually let the orse out of 428 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: the barn. But I do worry about it, and I 429 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: certainly worry about, you know, this continual death of local news. 430 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 2: But I also I don't know. I mean, maybe this 431 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 2: is a moral failing on my part, But I'm a 432 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: little bit hopeful because we have seen this is not 433 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 2: twenty sixteen where Trump won, you know, because we saw 434 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 2: online there was a story about John Podesta and spirit 435 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 2: cooking and comet ping pong, right like we've actually seen 436 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 2: in the last bunch of elections, Republicans have underperformed even 437 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 2: when they have said, you know, blatant lies about a candidate. 438 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 2: I mean I'm thinking about like herschel Walker versus Reverend Warnock, right, 439 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 2: Like that was a race where the Republicans were pumping 440 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 2: out a lot of information about Reverend Warnock and he 441 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 2: still won. So I am a little bit more hopeful 442 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 2: about that. There is definitely a fair amount of Misteve 443 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: Banna calls of flooding the zone with you know, but 444 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 2: I don't know that it works quite the same way 445 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 2: it used to. 446 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: And do you think that's because voters and viewers have 447 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: become more sophisticated because of the barrage of muck, that 448 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,359 Speaker 1: they've become more able to sort of discern reality from fiction. 449 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 2: I don't know, But I do know that my husband 450 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 2: sent me a picture of a raccoon eating a piece 451 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 2: of pizza on top of a garbage can, and I 452 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 2: immediately wrote back, is that real? So I do think 453 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: like we are much more savvy in a certain way. 454 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 2: I don't know that seven years ago I would have 455 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,239 Speaker 2: said is that real? I probably would have been like, 456 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: where did you see that? 457 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: Yeah? I think what we've gone through these phases in 458 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: the Murdoch Trump Waltz that we've seen since twenty fifteen. 459 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: It begins with Bill O'Reilly in a kind of lighter 460 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: version of pumping the gas. And then you get to 461 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: Sean Hannity, where he's very much in the tank with Trump. 462 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: They're talking on the phone, He's making up excuses for 463 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: Trump on air. When Trump's numerous liaisons with other women 464 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: come into the public purview, Sean Hannity is saying, well, 465 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: just look at King David. He had five hundred consorts, 466 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: you know, and all these other absurdities to explain away 467 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: the grotesque immorality of it all. And then we wind 468 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 1: up with Tucker Carlson, who is an open propagandist. He 469 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: creates alternative narratives whether Trump is there or not. And 470 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: so it suggests to me that Trump is, and the 471 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: media cohort next to it can last well beyond Rupert 472 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 1: Murdoch and well beyond Donald Trump, because it'll always will 473 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: be another Tucker Carlson who realizes, you don't need Trump 474 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: or Murdoch to make this work. 475 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: So I don't want to. I feel like you're making 476 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,640 Speaker 2: me be the hopeful one here, Tim that's not gone. 477 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: No one wants that. 478 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm just I want you to road test if I'm 479 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: being too unhopeful. 480 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: So Look, Chucker Colson, in my mind, was one of 481 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 2: the scariest as someone who has had seen what he's 482 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: done to people he targeted. He was really, in my mind, 483 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 2: one of the sort of scariest of those kind of 484 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 2: people out. 485 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 1: There, especially because he was really good at it. 486 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was really good. Look, I think the thing 487 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 2: that we don't talk about enough, and I'm sorry to 488 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: tell you I'm gonna again be optimistic here. I don't 489 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 2: know what's happening, but after January sixth, a lot of 490 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: Trump supporters went to jail. They went to jail for 491 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 2: doing what Trump told them to do, right on us, yes, 492 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 2: And so what that did is it had a chilling effect, 493 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: maybe not on all of them, but certainly on some 494 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 2: of them. Right they realized that like you do crime, 495 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 2: even for your guy, you go to jail. And that's 496 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: why we have people going to jail in this country 497 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 2: because the idea is and again it doesn't always work, certainly, 498 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 2: but accountability causes people to stop doing things. And so 499 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 2: I do think it's worth thinking about. You know, Trump 500 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: has had four indictments and each time he has not 501 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 2: had huge crowds show up at the courtrooms. 502 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: Right. 503 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 2: Remember in Georgia. There was a lot of anxiety that 504 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 2: closed down the streets. They closed down to this, They 505 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 2: goes on that, and in the end it was really 506 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: not a huge crowd. I also think, and again, there 507 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: was a time and I say this not from like 508 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 2: reporting I've done, but just from my own experiences online 509 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 2: as a woman online, there were times during the Trump 510 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: administration when things were really hot, like you could get 511 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: really a lot of death threats in a minute. These guys, yeah, 512 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 2: these guys were You were just getting death threats and 513 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: death threats and death threats. That seems to have pooled 514 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,479 Speaker 2: down a little bit. And you know, Tucker Carlson, he was. 515 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: I mean, the thing about Fox, which I think is 516 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 2: important to realize is that Fox always wins. They're like 517 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: the house right with these reporters, reporters, with their opinion hosts. 518 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 2: They always win. So like they fire Bill O'Reilly and 519 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 2: Bill O'Reilly went on to have a podcast and not 520 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 2: really do anything, and they fired Tucker, who was their 521 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: biggest rainmaker. And Tucker is doing a thing on X 522 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,719 Speaker 2: but it's not really it's sort of no consequence. And 523 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: Tucker's gone from like this major voice to so if 524 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 2: we were a year ago and Tucker were still on 525 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 2: the air, he'd be telling Matt Gates what to do. 526 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,959 Speaker 2: There was a time last year when Tucker Carlson was 527 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 2: telling Republicans in Congress that they needed to start a commission. 528 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: I can't remember what it was called, but a commission 529 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 2: to investigate the January sixth Commission. So he was like 530 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: giving direct orders to mentor legislators. Yeah, that doesn't happen anymore. 531 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: So I actually think Tucker Carlson was unique because he 532 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: was much smarter than most of those people and really 533 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: uniquely dangerous. 534 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: And that happy note, We're going to take another break 535 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: to hear from your sponsor. My friend the Optimist will 536 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: be coming back, and we will be back shortly. I'm 537 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: back with Molly Jong, fast writer, podcast host and professional gadfly. So, Molly, 538 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: we've been talking about the road behind us and the 539 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: road we've just emerged from in terms of the media 540 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: colliding with the Murdoch Empire and with political haymaking. Rupert 541 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: stepped out of the game, at least temporarilier. He'll be 542 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: more behind the scenes. What do you think about going 543 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: into the twenty twenty four election in terms of the 544 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: media's relationship through overcoming disinformation and propaganda in the interests 545 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: of fact gathering, while also being plain about when people 546 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: are trying to spin them or lie to them. You know, 547 00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: it's a bill of particulars that are hard for a 548 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: lot of media organizations to balance. 549 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: Well. One of the things that I'm the most concerned 550 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: about is the false equivalencies, and that I think really 551 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: the road to another Trump presidency is lined with you know, 552 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 2: I listened to a really straight news reported podcast. I'm 553 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: not going to mention it because I'm going to be 554 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 2: really critical now, and these are very smart, really mainstreamy 555 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 2: straight reporters, but they are addicted to the ada I think. 556 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: I know the podcast, I think to the idea of 557 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: both sides sort of having equal ways. 558 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 2: Right, and just that somehow the you know, Trump tried 559 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 2: to end democracy, he tried to end it, right, and 560 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 2: Biden news three years older than Trump. These two things 561 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 2: are not equivalent, and so I do think that is 562 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: a big problem. I also think Republicans, and not even Republicans, 563 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 2: this sort of far right heritage crew have worked the 564 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: refs so hard that every time a mainstream medium political 565 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,479 Speaker 2: editor is looking over a piece he's saying like, do 566 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 2: we seem too liberal? Does this seem to have a 567 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: liberal bias? And again that is not how this is 568 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: supposed to go. Right. You need have a democracy bias, 569 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: not a political biab. 570 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: Well, and the healthy question is do we have it right? 571 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 2: Right? 572 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: And accounting for how biases can shape what you think 573 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: right or wrong is I do think there's a good, strong, 574 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: honorable legacy in mainstream news gathering about assuming you're ignorant, 575 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: assuming you need to dig a little further to get 576 00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: towards where the truth resides, and that trying to do 577 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: that on breaking news in an anodyne, programmatic way serves 578 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: a purpose. I think the problem in the Trump era 579 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: is that process ran up against a man who's a 580 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: pathological liar and who had self interest ahead of everything else, 581 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: and the media, I think had a hard time figuring 582 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: out how you package what he was about using traditional methods, 583 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: and I think going into twenty twenty four it's possibly 584 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: even more pressing than it wasn't twenty sixteen that the 585 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: media learned to shed some of its traditions so people 586 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 1: can understand the reality around them. 587 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I mean I also think 588 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 2: this guy is unprecedented. Right, You're not covering a normal politician. 589 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 2: But they had said I would say, like the Republican 590 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: parties talked to talk to fascism, right or tap to 591 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 2: an anti democratic I mean, right now we have Al 592 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 2: Obama fighting with the Supreme Court about their refusal to 593 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 2: redraw the maps. This Supreme Court, which is a very 594 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 2: Trump heavy six ' three court, right. 595 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 1: Which believes in federalism and letting the states have more. 596 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: Work, leeves in federalism, which believes in originalism, which isn't 597 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 2: even a thing, which believes that you know that women 598 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 2: can be beaten by their husbands if it's smaller than 599 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,279 Speaker 2: a thumb. Obviously, I'm speaking hyperbolically here, but I do 600 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: think that, you know, this Republican Party has really turned 601 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 2: on democratic norms. So I think there is a feeling 602 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 2: in mainstream media that you cannot be hysterical, that you 603 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 2: cannot be emotional, that you must be calm and look 604 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 2: at things squarely, which is true. But if Donald Trump 605 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: gets re elected, we may no longer have elections. So 606 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 2: I don't know how you can be calm and look 607 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 2: squarely at the end of democracy that way. 608 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean I think this tension is between quote unquote 609 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: fact based reporting and accurate reporting, because not all accurate 610 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: reporting only involves the fact pattern and involves interpreting intent, 611 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: and Trump has long broadcast his intent in a way 612 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: that isn't simply about fact checking, and the media I 613 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: think has lacked certainly. I think in twenty fifteen and 614 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen early warning systems portraying that and educating people 615 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,439 Speaker 1: about it. I think the reality of his presidency put 616 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,839 Speaker 1: mainstream media back on its feet, and there's another bite 617 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: of the apple coming in. I think a lot of 618 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: the coverage of the January sixth insurrection showed the media 619 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: in better form. But in that case, everyone could agree 620 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: that breaking into the capital overtly and being violent on 621 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: the steps of the Capitol was a bad thing, regardless 622 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,920 Speaker 1: of the spin that was tried to put around interpreting 623 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: that event. I think Trump still roll forward with this 624 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 1: idea that because he's a presidential candidate, he gets treated 625 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 1: with a certain amount of distance and introspection that doesn't 626 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: actually reflect what he's about and what he's doing. 627 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I also think that that 628 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 2: they're just the framing. It's so hard to get out 629 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:20,399 Speaker 2: of the framing. One of the things that I do 630 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 2: think the media has done that's really good is they 631 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 2: no longer we'll say things like I mean, I was 632 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: thinking about this weekend where Trump threatened General Milly with execution. 633 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 1: Executing a former general. Yes, way that czars and pharaohs 634 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: of the past did it. 635 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,200 Speaker 2: Not a very normal thing for a healthy democracy When 636 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: he said that, I think previous iterations of the mainstream 637 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 2: media covering Trump would have had does Milly deserve to die? 638 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 2: You know as a headline. Now, what I think is 639 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: interesting is there's just sort of been silence, which actually 640 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 2: think is awesome, so bad, but in a different way. 641 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 2: So remember Trump in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, the number 642 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: was that he had about two billion dollars in free 643 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 2: media from saying crazy stuff and having it reported credulously. 644 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 2: So now I think we have another problem, but it's 645 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,240 Speaker 2: a different problem, which is he's not getting that free media, 646 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 2: but people aren't seeing what he's doing. 647 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,240 Speaker 1: He's not getting the air you know to float his balloon. 648 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: But people also aren't being critical of what he's doing 649 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: and covering the sort of the dimensions of it in 650 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: a robust enough way. Yeah, So what is the structure 651 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: that solves this problem in your mind? I have a 652 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: thought about that. But what is an overarching approach to 653 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: this that you think would remedy this. 654 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know, you tell me. 655 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: I mean, I think part of it is just being 656 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: more aggressive about how things are packaged for viewers and 657 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: for readers and for listeners. I think you can have 658 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: very short, just the facts, ma'am, kinds of synopsies of 659 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: events that give people a general handle on what occurred 660 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: that doesn't need to take sides. But I don't think 661 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: that should exist is the only take. I think that's 662 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:09,160 Speaker 1: why commentary exists. I think that's why news analysis exists, 663 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: and I think papers and broadcasters with the ability to 664 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: do it should be more aggressive about packaging those things 665 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: together to give their audience a fuller picture of what 666 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: the world's really about, and do it in a highly responsible, 667 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: but very aggressive way. I think that that's the traditional 668 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: role of the meeting. I think the media just has 669 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: to adapt to the fact that there's more disinformation and 670 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: propaganda out there that has to be taken on head 671 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: on and chewed up and exposed for what it is. 672 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: I think the other thing is that social media companies 673 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: have to be brought to heal. I think they have 674 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: to be treated the same way as traditional media organizations. 675 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 1: I think they have to police their platforms for garbage 676 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: and disinformation and hate speech in the same way that 677 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 1: traditional publications have done it. I think those are two 678 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: strong steps towards getting there. But that might be too simplistic. 679 00:38:59,680 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: Come up. 680 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think the question is is section two thirty 681 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 2: good or you know, should media company is not be 682 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 2: responsible for what is published on there? 683 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: I mean Section two thirty was invented at a time 684 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: when media platforms were being built from scratch, and it 685 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: was a way to give startups without a lot of 686 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: money a way to get content that they didn't have 687 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 1: to police so they could get their feet on the ground. 688 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,800 Speaker 1: Those same platforms, a number of them emerged as major 689 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 1: multimedia forces that I think now should police what's on 690 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: their pages, or their platforms or their airwaves. And I 691 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: think that Section two thirty shouldn't give Facebook or Twitter 692 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: a free past towards again bringing up this ugly word, 693 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: but being better gatekeepers. 694 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree. 695 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: When you look at where we are right now, do 696 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,640 Speaker 1: you see a media organization doing it in a way 697 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: that you think is right. Is there a media organization 698 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: that you think has a good playbook? 699 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,280 Speaker 2: That's a hard question. There are a lot of journalists 700 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 2: that I really say back writing a lot of really 701 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 2: interesting stuff. You know, what is so interesting about the 702 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:10,719 Speaker 2: moment we are in is more and more everything becomes decentralized. Right, So, like, 703 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 2: there are people I always read at the New York Times, 704 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 2: people I always read about any Fair, people I always 705 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 2: read at The Atlantic, people I always read at the 706 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 2: Washington Post. There are people I love at the New Yorker. 707 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 2: So I would say what's pretty interesting is like these 708 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 2: sort of brands have in my mind. I don't read 709 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 2: something necessarily because of where it is. I read it 710 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 2: because of who wrote it. 711 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 1: So the personal filter becomes more important. 712 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's not always true, And I'll read 713 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,320 Speaker 2: all the sort of politics vertical at the Washington Post 714 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 2: and the New York Times or but I tend to 715 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 2: like their opinion writers who I just skip them. 716 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: I always like to end the pods with asking people 717 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: about what they've learned, what they know now that they 718 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 1: didn't know before. Molly does Rupert Murdoch dissent from the 719 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: top of Fox and the evolution of Fox over the 720 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: last decades teach you anything about the way that the 721 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: media ecosystem in the Murdoch ero works. 722 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 2: I just think you can never underestimate the way that 723 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 2: some people just want to watch the world burn. 724 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 1: Wow, So you sees though you are actually the pessimist 725 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,040 Speaker 1: after all this back and forth about who's the opertor 726 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: who's the pessimist. I mean, I don't necessarily disagree. I mean, 727 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: I think part of the Republican political agenda is to 728 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: defenestrate the federal government, and Donald Trump would just like 729 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: to burn the house down rather not being given re entry. 730 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: So I think that's true. But the extent to which 731 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: people will sort of enjoy the conflagration is a trippy 732 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:42,399 Speaker 1: element of all that. 733 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 2: I also think Donald Trump just wants to stay out 734 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 2: of jail. I mean, you know, I think that at 735 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 2: the end of the day, the man just thinks like 736 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:55,399 Speaker 2: this will keep him out of jail, and we cannot 737 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 2: underestimate the kind of motivator that is for him. 738 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: That's a discusion for the next time you come on 739 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,240 Speaker 1: to talk with me, Mollie, because we're out of time today. 740 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me. 741 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:05,560 Speaker 2: Thanks. 742 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: Molly jong Fast is a special correspondent for Vanity Fair 743 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: and the hosts of the Fast Politics podcast. You can 744 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: find her on Twitter at Molly jong Fast. Here at 745 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: crash Course, we believe that collisions can be messy, impressive, challenging, surprising, 746 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 1: and always instructive. In today's Crash Course, I learned that 747 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,479 Speaker 1: I may be perceived by some as a pessimist, even 748 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: though I've always thought of myself as an optimist. But 749 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: given the media sworld that we're in now, I have 750 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,560 Speaker 1: to say I feel very pessimistic. What did you learn? 751 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,040 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you. You can tweet at 752 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Opinion handle at Opinion or me at Tim 753 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,439 Speaker 1: O'Brien using the hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also 754 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now and 755 00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:52,959 Speaker 1: leave us a review. It helps more people find the show. 756 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by the indispensable Anna Maserakas, Moses 757 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: Ondam and me, our supervib producers Magnus Hendrickson, and we 758 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: had editing help from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott, 759 00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:09,359 Speaker 1: Mike Nize, and Christine Vanden. Bilart Blake Maple says, our 760 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: sound engineering and our original theme song was composed by 761 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,240 Speaker 1: Luis Gara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week 762 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: with another crash course.